 Hello and welcome to Tiskey sour. I mean Jones is in the building. Here he is. Yeah, how's it going? Fine? I've got some non-alcoholic premium quality Heineken for stoptober. Yeah But I have I did a good as you know, I was with you last yesterday I did have a little bit to drink by I got a golden ticket. You're allowed to do that Anyway, I'm not doing it for charity. So it's not that makes me sound bad now But I mean I'm not violating some Well now I should have done that nice No, but in any case I've been yeah, I've been pretty well behaved We are gonna talk about the establishment of the leech of the leash and out of control. They do they do leech Yeah leaching off the leash. Yeah, but first of all it was budget day today So Philip Hammond has said the hard work of the British people is paying off and the era of austerity is finally coming to an end Sounds pretty good as it's a victory for the left. Oh in some ways is yes I think I mean the fact Theresa May said austerity is over Was I would say a massive colossal error. I mean surprising from her. She's a master strategist But it was a huge error because whatever every cut now to quote to paraphrase the police every cut you make every whatever you every every Move you make I'll be watching yeah, that'll do and everything now will be you know Those words will be hung around a neck with with with everything that happens But if we think about what in terms of the colossal catastrophic failure and of austerity as a project even on its own self-described terms whether it be the longest most protracted squeeze in wages for working people of any industrialized country in the OECD of industrialized nations and other than Greece the worst fall In wages the most sustainable in this country since the Napoleonic War Where the deficit as we remember was in in solemn terms. We the pledge was it would be wiped out by 2015 Philip Hammer now in 2018 is talking about it being being reduced in the in the middle of the 2020s and Debt they've added more debt than every single Labour government put together in history and if we look now at the so-called commitments I mean take the NHS the NHS has gone through the worst squeeze in funding as a proportion the economy since It was founded so the extra money doesn't even deal with that problem cuts to per people funding to education which I have today is such an act of vandalism because clearly We'll be paying for that for generations if you if you cut per people funding you you suffocate the potential of an entire generation And as a country we'll be paying for that for many decades to come in terms of social security the cuts there clearly most of George Osborne's cuts remain so For low-paid for for those in a country are most people in poverty in work their living standards will fall Same with disabled people bear in mind last year. We had the biggest rise in child poverty Since 1988 what I'd say though in terms of why there's a victory for the left. I think if I were to sum up the kind of dilemma I'm gonna be sympathetic about the dilemma neoliberalism has run out of road and The dilemma they have is similar to what the left had in some ways in the 1970s when the post-war consensus Had run out of road now I we would argue it should have gone in a different direction clearly But but it had in that form run out of road in the 1970s after the oil shock Yeah, the collapse of Bretton Woods the international financial framework and so that system was tottering and What they're doing at the moment is flitting in quite an erratic way between going well look the Existing order the current system clearly is not working for millions of people That's why of course Amongst the working-age population Labour have a 20-point lead amongst, you know the younger you get you know the toys become a fringe party So the toys go hang on a minute. We recognize that we're gonna have to recognize that that's just reality here And so what we'll have to do is start conceding There are problems that have to be rectified and Theresa May did try you know the burning injustices She spoke of when she became prime minister the danger with that though as you concede the argument to your opponents You start to you know, you basically legitimize what they're saying you come off as is Obviously conflicted and you know you people are end up saying well why not have the full-fat version The other which they flip towards is we haven't made the case enough for free market ideology You know we became to try complacent which they did they were so triumphalist They thought the left was battered destroyed forever after the Cold War after new labor Which Margaret Thatcher called the biggest achievement and they they said we should have carried on making the argument for free market dogma An ideology and because we fail to do that We surrendered, you know the reds have taken over the downside with that is They're gonna double down on an ideology that's on a collision course with people's lived reality of a housing crisis stagnating and falling wages job insecurity a worse lot in life for young people than their than than their Parents so that's the dilemma. They keep flitting between the two and the problem with the budget where he talks for example of more spending of getting rid of PFI It is conceding arguments to labor But without the actual, you know the actual substance there So the rhetoric is being labor's rhetoric has been justified or Legitimized it shows the left is winning the battle of ideas. They have no, you know, they run out of ideas I was at Tory conference spent a lot of time with some Some charming people, but they don't have any coherent ideas at all All I found there was a kind of mania about the reds are coming the social, you know Venezuela and the reds are under the beds, but there's no coherent ideology or set of ideas that exists there And and that's why it's just a flitting between let's scare monger about the commies Oh, but we are also going to start Stealing in in in rhetoric some of their ideas there but without any of the substance. So I think that's why This helps us because we will be able to say from now on having made the case of austerity as a disaster They've conceded it's unpopular. They're claiming it's over people will spend the next few months and years Realizing it clearly isn't over and labor can you know, everything that happens from now on isn't just Cuts that damage people's living standards. It's it's it's a it's a broken promise from the Conservatives I mean, I agree. They don't have any particular ideological framework carrying themselves forward But I mean, I think what you can learn from Philip Green's budget today Not Philip Green That's the next topic a lot of a lot of obnoxious Phillips Pam and is that he does have a coherent strategy It's potentially not a good one But the choice that they've made is that they're gonna basically ease off on austerity Hopefully try and improve people's living standards a little bit, but they're gonna try and do it without conceding They were mistaken So that's why you get this line of the British public have done the hard work They put in the hard work The only the only reason this sort of loosening of the fiscal strings is possible is because we did all of the sensible reform So the last eight years and it was worth it that you had to tighten your belt for those eight years So it's sort of keeping with The odd the ideology that austerity was necessary while saying the necessity of it of austerity is coming to an end The question is just whether people buy that or not. Yeah, and I I suppose I'm skeptical about that amongst the working-age population I don't think that is the case. I mean Where that I think will land is and I'm not going to generational conflict because labor needs to win over older people That's why labor didn't win the last election principally because labor remain a fringe party amongst older Britons And the older people have been protected social democracy has been preserved for older people And and and their living standards on average have gone up since the crash It's like the crash didn't happen and that that's who it will resonate amongst but amongst the working-age population You know when wages are lower on average than they were before layman brothers came crashing down and Where I think the argument which labor putting forward is all of this pain, but what is there to show for it? That's what lands and I think I think the problem is that's what whether they like or not the Tories are De facto conceding but we have to go hard on that as a failed experiment that that has you know You know, they promised they'd wipe out the deficit over three years ago And they didn't and and then if we look at the NHS been reduced to a humanitarian crisis according to the Red Cross last year Whether it be young people saddled with debt whether it be per people funding cut for millions of parents across the country whether it be You know stagnating Wages all of that then is seen as not a sacrifice in the name of some great noble successes and victories In no sense is that tangible for people in this country because there aren't any tangible Successes it's not like people can go. Well, I've got we've got the benefits of this austerity What what single benefit can anyone talk of over the last eight years that has improved or changed their lives? and it and what will happen in the coming years is because The Tories are promising that this is an end to something which is now very unpopular support for increasing Taxes to spend more is it the highest level now since? 2002 and also they're not benefiting anymore from what was the case which really hurt particularly in the coalition years was Most more people thought labor was to blame for the cuts and the conservatives. That's not the case anymore The other which I didn't know that that has changed what the other thing there that is we don't talk about enough And I think this is worth remarking on is particularly before 2015 2016 The demonization of social security and benefit claimants was so rampant and George Osborne in particular was very much led on that campaign That has subsided quite noticeably and attitudes have shifted and that's important because support or not support Resignation to austerity was often possible or made possible Because it was it was portrayed as we're cutting back spending on the people who aren't deserving the people who will suffer the pain are Scroungers There are people who you know the state has subsidized their fecklessness and they need to you know This is for their own good if anything and and that shifted as well So I think that's why you started hitting middle-class people right well exactly what the Daily Mail launched recently a save our parks campaign Which was all about how parks should have Guards and how they should be open and maintained and basically how they need to increase the funding massively to part Well, we have concern with our conservative MPs. You know David Cameron at one point Writing a letter to his council opposing specific cost. You've had Tory MPs doing that as well You know kind of an anti-austerity nimby is him and and that's because obviously as austerity You know even with conservative with middle-class voters that has an impact But when you have a situation where millions of low-paid workers or middle-income people affected by cuts to social security The idea of demonizing. Oh, it's your it's your scrounger next door Doesn't doesn't work and also people have seen the pain I mean when homelessness and rough sleeping goes up so I think that's why there's been a shift which is and I think the scapegoating particularly of benefit claimants has as lost its aliens and People sense of you know that sense of this is I don't like it, but it's necessary has massively Declined and there is a massive appetite for through investing in the economy You know the highest of 20 to 2002 So I think that's what labor needs. You know, there's a huge opportunity there just because I think you know If we if we bear in mind what we call factorism did not start with that chair It started under Jim Callaghan's labor government in the in the 70s After they went to the IMF they imposed the worst cuts for for many decades in in government spending Which proved to be on the basis of treasury forecasts, which were false But what we regard what was called monetarism or factorism began under labor So in a sense, you know, did that help labor? Well, of course it didn't it helped legitimize and show up that tourism So the fact that even mildly toning down austerity and in rhetoric certainly talking about You know austerity something that needs to end and which then will collide with people's lived experience I think is the flip of the 1970s when we were losing the battle of ideas in every front The differences we did actually have ideas on the left at that point You know on the not the kind of people defending the post-war consensus But there was a left arguing for an alternative economic strategy and so on they don't really have They have an alternative economic strategy, which is the Singapore one, right? Well, you have yeah, they have low workers, right super low taxes And then you make us all work for the wages that the Chinese do well the problem is that it's so monstrously Like we get kill us the unpopular I mean, that's the sort of thing which would get maybe what 3% support Liberty libertarian, right? Wingerie is is a fringe position in the electorate. We're gonna move on to the other Philip in a second first I just want to get up one quote which was just from the Guardian's report that I thought was telling about how Limited an end of austerity actually is So it says public services were promised an extra 1.2 percent a year starting in 2020 So it's not until 2020 we're gonna get this although officials subsequently stressed this was just a forecast and This is after public services the funding for them was contracted by 3% a year between 2010 and 2015 and 1.3% a year up to now and I mean Dean up to now So so you're not getting anywhere close to what funding for public services used to be We're just not gonna get any more budgets where it's More and more brutal cuts. We're basically not gonna level out and what you end up there with is well because you get rising need I mean, this is the thing with the NHS and it's not just that NHS spending Has suffered a massive fall in increases It's that there's a growing patient need because of a rising aging population because of cuts to social security Because of higher inflation of healthcare costs So all of these you know if you're promising a bit more funding for certain services in 2020 You wouldn't see the benefits of that till After 2020 anyway the years afterwards and in any case it wouldn't reverse the damage done and also you've got rising pressures on those services So again, that's what we have to focus on we have to Focus on the promise the pledge to end austerity a consensus We could then argue that austerity is innately a bad thing that people do not want anymore But the fact that labor that the toys promise something in rhetoric there Ideologically not able to deliver all right the other Philip Philip green. You've been personally reporting on this, haven't you? I did. Yeah, I did. I don't want to sound like a dick, but I'm often cut it's often said that You know, I'm not I'm not a real journalist. I'm not I'm not bitter. I'm not sensitive chat It's fine. It's been, you know, I've gotten so well with my peers in the media over the last few years But I did so I did this front page for with it with a colleague of mine for the Guardian about Philip green where a anonymous Source got in touch about Pretty horrendous Sit well sickening allegations of how Philip green is alleged to behave and Which you know just alleged sexual harassment alleged bullying alleged racism and I think well, you know Philip green is somebody I think he does some up Just a bankruptcy in so many ways of the British establishment and the British Social order which has governed this country for over generation. He's a man. He's of course venerated by prominent politicians Tony Blair who knighted him who you know, he spoke of a realising dream the British dreams and you know That kind of promise of of Entrepreneurship David Cameron who appointed him as an advisor on and on on public expenditure and so on so he was you know a man who's fated by politicians by You know almost presented as is as a case study in as a British business, you know success story and What's happened with Philip green? Well, it's not just the allegations of how he behaves in The workplace and that speaks to me of firstly patriarchy and male dominance and male power and how that's exercised male sense of entitlement colliding with With economic structures, which concentrate vast amounts of power in the hands of economic titans who dominate our lives And and who believe they can behave as they see fit because there are no checks and balances on their authority Well, and also they can use their lawyers to ensure that they can behave as they see fit, right? I mean, that's the that's a confusing part of the story It's partly confusing because I know that journalists can't go on TV and say whatever they whatever they know and whatever they want Because there's loads of legal restrictions about what people are allowed to say, but he basically made his employees Or some employees sign non-disclosure agreements So the allegations we have to be careful here. That's why I keep talking like this. So the allegations are that he spent Arcadia Arcadia even not him personally spent seven figure sums on on non-disclosure agreements to silence those who had allegedly come forward with allegations Including settlement of so settlements of three million pounds a pop two cases three million one one million another half a million vast amounts of money in order to silence alleged Harassment and an alleged bullying. I mean Philip Green himself. I mean the reason you know He sums up so much of this just decadent order is You know, so he took over VHS, which was this iconic British Store and even as it had a you had this, you know, he sold off a million Sorry, he sold off a quid to a known bankrupt a repeated bankrupt and and VHS seed there He'd taken hundreds of millions of pounds in dividends It was then discovered afterwards. There was a half a billion pound deficit in its in its pensions Well, there's an amazing symmetry to it all which is why the story will obviously it's a terrible story But I mean it works so well because he leaves it with a five hundred million pound deficit He's taken in sort of like rent and earnings precisely 500 million pound in deficit was 550 and 560 whatever and it's exactly the same with Arcadia. So Arcadia currently has 1 billion pension deficit in 2005 alone. He took 1.2 billion in dividends. There you go for his family So that's that was a record of the amount of money that an owner has ever sucked out of a business Yes, that's a key thing. You know, this is he's somebody I think what they're the 40th richest family in the country there. They live this ridiculously opulent lifestyle I mean the key point of course is of that the companies are actually technically owned by his wife based in Monaco So they don't pay the taxes. They would be otherwise eligible to pay as British taxpayers So back in 2010 UK and cut the anti-tax avoidance Campaigners targeted specifically his flagship stores like Tom and indeed one of those campaigners was Aaron Bustani Your Nirvana Conrad who appeared in the Daily Mail with his top off outside top shop Just you know a little bit of little little little anecdote to Google it Google it. It's there. All right He's there with his top off. But anyway, it's I mean He certainly is it was his profile picture for a long time I if I look like that, it'd be my profile picture. But anyway, so this is somebody You know, we're talking about how it's one rule for some and one rule for others when it comes to Who pays tax because a local clothes show a family owned clothes business could not or a local bookshop and Can't register themselves in foreign countries with lower tax regimes or or charge themselves For using their own logo and offset it as a cost Or sell there or set a reroute their sales to Ireland or or offload losses from foreign Entities and put them on their balance sheets they just have to pay their taxes as an and they're often driven out of business by Companies which which do exploit those loopholes and can afford to do so So you've got that whole kind of you know at a time of massive austerity when we're told there's not enough money for basic Public services the likes of the Philip Greens can avoid tax and industrial scale that they can just take over these companies treat them as cash cows Get rid of them and give them to some known bankrupt to then obviously it goes bankrupt massive gaping hole in its deficit Pension debt so a massive hole in its pensions and these are deferred earnings These are these are the deferred wages of workers who prop up these companies who create the wealth of these companies And then he's somebody of course alleged to have taken part in or be responsible for massive It of alleged sexual harassment and bullying So this is a story in lots of ways about our social order the concentration of power and wealth In their hands and when I talked about the establishment in the book what I was talking about and With the institutions and ideas that justify and legitimize the concentration of wealth and power in very few hands and this Ideology if you like we call neoliberalism It binds it binds them together and when I wrote that book it was still in the age of You know that it was still in the age of neoliberal hegemony the different political era of 2014 When you know what bound what united the establishment in this country was a sense of and they were drunk Of their own triumphalism which has come to bite them now But that idea on on on how you run and organize Society seem completely unchallenged and unchallengeable And that enabled this you know, you know, and they would popularize it is for the good of all society What is good for Arcadia and top man at top shop is good for everybody else Which is self-evidently now a discredited idea, but I think that just sums up, you know the nexus of how it works They had forming media. They had forming politicians You know, you have this revolving door And you have that across the establishment a revolving door of business civil service Politics to coin the phrase that all in it together. So one thing I was wondering with the Philip Green thing is I mean, I suppose one of the reasons the establishment is supposed to be so successful is because the true nature It is to some degree hidden whereas a Philip Green. I mean, it's all so explicit also blatant and in a way that's kind of Unnecessary, you know, he didn't need to Take 500 million pound from BHS and leave a 500 million pound pension deficit the guy's rich enough to not do that He's got a hundred million pound yacht and on the left, you know If you've got someone who's a figurehead on the left and they're behaving in such a way that it's completely discrediting your movement There'll be a few people sort of like calling them up saying come on rain it in what are you up to? Are there people calling Philip Green at this point? It's George Osborne calling Philip Green saying like mate Can you just you're giving this whole project a bad name? Can you rain it in a little bit? Let's start with George Osborne. I mean, no, that's a really just the other day What what was uncovered? I mean, it's not surprising that George Osborne was told by civil servants that He was warned that his policies and social security would drive huge numbers of children into poverty He's now a man who gets, you know, a book the board these all these baubles these huge jobs from the British establishment Here have a have London's newspaper despite, you know monopoly newspaper nearly the evening standard despite having absolutely no background whatsoever in journalism Here have a job at BlackRock or whatever these financial companies. I mean, you know, these are people, you know He's somebody responsible for cynical partisan ends in part of plunging huge numbers of kids into poverty He will suffer the consequences of that Are there none with with enough foresight? One of the all I mean what I'm trying to say is they're all I mean, they're all so tainted by this I mean where who do you hold up? You know, and that's another I you know, you get the likes of Richard Branson I mean because I wrote about this last week about philanthropy and there was this argument Because last year there was an unprecedented increase in the wealth of of the world's billionaires and this argument of well look at you know the philanthropy in motion but What philanthropy does is make these, you know It's a convenient way of making these big businesses look good whilst they avoid far more in taxes They arbitrarily decide themselves based on their own whims where the money goes Rather than on the basis of people's actual needs and it also buys them influence because if you're a philanthropist that it gives you this kind of Conferred you with a certain image which buys your access with politicians and so on and so forth I mean, that's the thing, you know, the the problem we have with I suppose the establishment is it's not a case of Bad day. I always get that metaphor wrong Because the whole point of rotting a rotten apple is it then the whole barrel That becomes but that then the whole barrel becomes rotten as a consequence But it's not it's about the system as a whole so you can do that fit. Let's take that metaphor further It is like bad apples But they've been there for such a long time that all the other apples in the barrel just festered with maggots everywhere Yeah, I mean the whole point is it's not about the establishment is not a story of villains I mean Phillip Green is useful as a case study But it's not a case of the establishment is full of fundamentally bad people most people rationalize their behavior is not being bad Most people, you know, like to think of themselves as you know, not damaging the rest of society and The issue with the establishment is not a case of if we replace a few bad people with people who behave well Then things will be improved the establishment is a system and the system is itself fundamentally Bankrupt and what we've seen in the last few years quite dramatically is that system has hit the buffers It's run out of road and and the cut the consequences in terms of stagnating living standards in terms of the the the endemic insecurity because what neoliberalism always did which was that binding ideology the establishment the way it Populized itself wasn't go wasn't going. Oh, yeah, we're gonna make a load of wealthy people really wealthy and powerful They obviously have to have a promise a commitment to the rest of the population and that was freedom It was personal freedom. We will free you from the dead weight of the state We will free you from the tyranny of collectivism trade unionism and so on and the individual then will be free to Prosper on their own merits and this was then, you know It was a useful means of justifying inequality because then you'd say the people at the top deserve to be there They just worked harder They're brighter. They're more intelligent the people at the bottom of there because they're lazy and work shy And that justified exploding inequality But in practice what human freedom or personal freedom they said they were expanding was actually lived as insecurity it was, you know, it was You know, rather than, you know, right to buy was sold off as you have the right to own your own home But what did it mean in practice in the long term? It meant millions of people were denied the right to a decent affordable home a massive chunk of those houses were brought By by to let landlords charging twice the rent of a council house Job insecurity. There's 10 million people. It's estimated now an insecure jobs in this country So you've got this sense of it's not for insecurity is not freedom insecurities and traps the individual and I think that's what hit the buffers, which is both people's anger and frustration With an establishment which continues to spy after over a decade now of the financial crash continues to live as though It's having one non-stop party which they are and Whilst for millions of people life has become more difficult where optimism has been sat and and that you know That's why the old order is is fundamentally disintegrating in this country. We're gonna move to Brazil. Oh, yeah, so yesterday Concerningly Jaya Bolsonaro was elected president of Brazil. This is a guy who was I mean not only flirted with fascism I mean, he's basically a fascist we can get up some of the things He's said to give us an idea of what kind of guy we're talking about obviously We talked about this a couple of weeks ago on Tiskey sour so you can check out a more in-depth story About Bolsonaro there, but for now, we'll just get up some of these quotes. So Pinochet should have killed more people This is in 1998. I have five children forward boys on the fifth. I got a week I got weak and had a daughter that's in 2017. Let's shoot all the pay all the PT members here in Acre which is a Brazilian state. So that's all the workers party members the main opposition at this point My advice and I do it I cheat on my taxes as much as possible if I don't need to pay anything. I don't pay I'm favorable to torture and you know this that's in 1999. This is a guy who's a Real threat to democracy a real threat to human rights in Brazil Oh and you tweeted today, which sort of created some Controversy was it last night that the victory of Bolsonaro shows us That now more than ever. It's either socialism or barbarism This upset a lot of people. What did you mean by this? upset the usual people and I Think I mean what we saw what? Look if we just think of where we're at and I think this is important point to make so the biggest democracies in the world are India the United States Indonesia and then Brazil three of those four now are led by either or are to be led by an avert fascists like Bolsonaro or by leaders which are sympathetic to and Supported by fascists in India Modi in the United States Donald Trump so You know, this is a this is a period an era of of profound crisis I mean Bolsonaro is is the most acute example of this And one that should particularly horrify us. I mean the way I look at it is these are the morbid symptoms of a decaying global social order and What happened in Brazil is if we look actually, you know Despite his flaws Lula according to all the so the former president of Brazil workers party and from the left Had to make or made lots of compromises and power but on from the left and All the polls showed he would have won in this election, but he was stitched up by a an establishment which And undertook a soft coup against his successor back in 2016 Which was backed by a lot of so-called centrists in Brazil? Centrist so-called parties collapsed in this election But they they their leading politicians took a position of neutrality between what was effectively a moderate social Democrat And and a fascist. I mean the point I would make is look I mean it's just to take a step back at where we are in the 90s So-called third-way politics was hegemonic across much of the Western world So you had the Cleansons in the White House? Blair of course here in Britain Jospan Leon or Jospan in France get how it showed there in Germany the Spanish socialists The Dutch Labour Party across the Nordic countries as well. They all had kind of Third way with their own particular local characteristics because in Britain neoliberalism had gone much further than elsewhere So they weren't all the same, but they were fundamentally rooted in a in a similar tradition That tradition has no relevance to the post-crash era in which we live of social and economic turmoil centrously social democratic parties are in a state of in some cases political liquidation in much of continental Europe They're in collapse. They're getting their worst polling in since the war From Germany to Italy to Spain even though now there's a left-wing government which is backed by The radical left but don't miss party the Netherlands. We could go on and in the United States where you got Kind of centrist Democrat power excellence Hillary Clinton Even though she won the popular vote that was a that was an election which was deemed in you know An asteroid hitting earth would have been more likely than Donald Trump becoming president Which just showed the utter complacency of a centrist democratic party. He just did not understand You know the social and political trends around them or had no answer to them because of their own ideology I mean we've seen again, of course Brazil succumbed to fascism and this is the most dramatic Example and you know for me, I think You know, we look back to You know history it said often doesn't It doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes And this is not the 30s just being imported. Well, I certainly hope not because in the 30s and 40s fascism Overwhelmed Europe and much of the world with the deaths of tens of millions of people But but the echoes are are striking and at a time of economic and social crisis People do not want the system to be tinkered with or to be managed. They want it to be overhauled And in a dramatic fashion if we don't offer a convincing incoherent alternative Then fascism and the far right will fill that vacuum and I think that is a phenomenon which is happening Across much of the world at the moment So I suppose responses to that tweet Because I mean I'm pointing out just not just because I think what happened on Twitter today is the most important thing that happened This weekend but because there are some interesting points to be made there So one is that there are other options liberalism centrism, whatever I think you've just addressed that The other is something that Paul Mason was talking about a couple of weeks ago in the new statesman Which I thought was quite interesting about two Alternate strategies that the left can have in response to a rising far right So one is the sort of socialism or barbarism angle Which is to say the only way to challenge the far right is with a properly socialist platform and uncompromising socialist platform And we see liberals we see bourgeois liberals as a liability So he cites Marx in 1848 telling French revolutionaries throw the bourgeoisie overboard as their untrustworthy Allies so this idea that yeah, we don't want anything to do with the centrist because they'll corrupt our movement And then that will make us even weaker As we're trying to face the far right because I'll sell us out He then talks about another tradition on the left, which is the popular front against fascism So he's saying this is this was the strategy of the communist international in the 1930s Where you're saying we as socialists will work with anyone Who's who will stand against fascism with us and that will sometimes mean persuading people who who was sort of somewhat teetering so you're trying to divide the liberal bourgeoisie to try and Bring into your camp those people who you think you can fight with against fascists and I wonder how you see Your stance is relating to those two positions on the left And I suppose a further question would be if you were to be in favor of the popular front Should we be spending more time love bombing centrists instead of trying to dismiss their politics? Yeah, I mean, I think you know Paul Mason is ever that was a very stimulating article He's always exceptionally thought-provoking and on anything he writes about And I think you know, I suppose the quick summary of of those positions again Just in the past was that the Marxist understanding of the bourgeoisie of the rising capitalist industrialist class Was they played originally a revolutionary role and in emancipating humanity from feudalism and semi feudalism? French Revolution and so on the Napoleonic conquest in much of Europe and And and then that role became obsolete and they've ended up becoming buffers and human progress Which needs to be superseded that that role then that now a reactionary role and that you know Lenin and Trotsky will Trotsky. He had this theory of permanent revolution, which was in Outside of the industrialized developed world the bourgeoisie was actually too weak to play that revolutionary role And actually that fell to the working class to do the democratic bourgeois bit parliamentary democracy and so on and and then And and then go but not to stop there but to continue to socialism Because in that division of Russian Marxist you had the Mensheviks who believed if you like with quite a crude Marxist Interpretation that you had to be an advanced capitalist state to have a social revolution because you needed a massive working class in in Russia most were still peasants and And Therefore you needed to go through a period of you know You have a reformist government that tried to ameliorate the excesses of capitalism But until then you couldn't have socialism till you had an advanced capitalist state I mean in terms of what then happened with Stalinism is originally from the 1920s onwards as fascism grew in Italy And then obviously in Germany originally was so-called third period Stalinism, which was as ultra-sectarianism and saw Social Democrats as social fascists and enablers of fascism And then you had this quite abrupt shift to the so-called popular front where you didn't just make Communist Party shouldn't just make alliances with social Democrats, but also liberals. I think what I'd say in terms of our current context and where we are now But I don't have any aversion to making alliances against Fascism with social Democrats or and social so-called centrists the problem I think is is these which is on what terms because often the problem with so-called centrism is It will accept an alliance on the basis that it assumes a leadership role and you surrender your key ideological tenants to their leadership They themselves to be a centrist, which isn't really doesn't really describe a kind of coherent ideology The many of their so-called centrists they they define they historically they principally define themselves against the left When they assumed leadership for example of the Labour Party That was because they saw themselves of having waged a successful and often quite brutal civil war Against the left flank of the Labour Party who they fundamentally believed, you know, they had to be a year zero and of the Labour Party where their political tradition should be permanently vanquished which they thought they'd achieved and So you still see that now with so-called centrists They will regard the Labour left as a bigger threat often. I mean depends on the centuries That's why you can't really homogenize them But there are some so-called centrist commentators and centrist MPs who would prefer to reason made to be prime minister than Jeremy Corbyn What do you do in that circumstance? I mean, you know a a premiership which legitimizes far-right tropes which sent go-home vans around mixed communities which Expelled black Britons under the Windrush scandal Which you know in terms of its anti-migrant Rhetoric and Islamophobia, so you get some centrist who I don't you know, they'll say they don't agree with that or whatever But fundamentally they see the Labour left as a bigger threat So what do you do in that circumstance? Are we the ones being sectarian? And the other I suppose is the the danger is If we end up having to surrender a Lots of well or to pot and hold And what we regard is the solutions to a broken system Well, our analysis is the far right is a morbid symptom of a decaying system Which I'm afraid centrist work complicit in in propping up and justifying whether it be not regulating the financial sector Whether it be not dealing or reversing properly the massive inequality of the factory area or properly dealing with the massive housing crisis and abdicating it To the market and it what worries me a bit is what I call kind of the burlescon II model which is that when burlescon II became Leader of Italy Prime Minister that was a huge shock to people obviously of a progressive disposition in Italy this thuggish You know demagogic right-wing politician who basically own 90% of the Italian Broadcast media, I mean it was they were utterly horrified and the argument ended up being that Leftist needed to you know needed to dampen down their radicalism They needed to be this grand coalition and basically the way of defeating it was centrist moderation Which the Italian Democrats which had come out of the Italian Communist Party some dot they became this you know kind of You know a new labor but without a trade union link so without even that kind of counterweight Look what's happened to Italy now You know that ended in a period of economic and social crisis with a centrist Formation which the left had subordinated themselves unable to answer the massive social problems that afflicted Italy including stagnating living standards and so on and instead that was filled by two different forces the five-star movement a really bizarre and hot pot populist movement led by an eccentric medium and And the northern League a semi-fascist Organization who are now in government in Italy and the Italian Democrats like most centrist Lead centre-left parties has cut has has got a massive jubbing at the last elections So that's my worry. I mean my other worry again. I look at Brazil in Brazil those centrist leaders sat out an election between a fascist and a moderate social Democrat and You know the Guardian's excellent Latin America correspondent Tom Phillips said What you can imagine what just happened in the Brazil's election is it was like Jeremy Corbyn? I mean, I don't think had had the Brazilian workers party person was you know It wasn't like Corbyn, but was from a left party versus Nick Griffin and Tony Blair You know it was like Tony Blair in the Brazilian context saying I'm gonna sit this one out and be neutral So I suppose those are the problems that have to be addressed I think clearly we have to find ways of building broad alliances But I would say is you know when we talk about that what do you so-called centrist politicians have a massive organic base in this country? I mean, obviously we need to build a mass movement on the streets in our workplaces and in our communities But it clearly when we talk about forming lives of a centrist I presume people don't mean Tony Blair or Nick like well I think what Paul Mason is talking about so he's the quote is The number one lesson with regard Bolsonaro's rise is I quote to try as hard as possible for as long as possible To maintain an alliance between the center and the left So it's not necessarily to say that an alliance with the center because it has this moral or democratic legitimacy It's to say that well at least in Brazil once you lose Any remnants of a liberal bourgeoisie it becomes much harder to win because of the power they exert in society legitimately or illegitimately Well, I could I mean we know you know obviously now the stock markets and so on in Brazil are soaring and You know, we know I mean as the BBC keeps reporting big big business in is absolutely delighted I mean the the National Canadian broadcaster Did this a series of tweets about what great news this was for potential Canadian investors? So I don't know much we can do about that in this in in this era I don't think we're gonna compete Obviously, I'm not so new or you were Paula suggesting this about being who can be the most pro business because we're not gonna win that battle If we did we've lost our entire project and worldview and then we won't be able to satisfy the grievances Which are then fed on by fascism. So we will lose in every sense We will but we will be politically and morally bankrupt and then we will lose up any any any basis in society So what I'd say is of course we yes, we should make alliances against fascism in the far right But we do need to do on our own political terms. We do need to what there is you know unless we have a Radical solutions to the radical injustices from housing to falling wages to Young people having a worse lot in life than their parents and unless we have Just a collapse of market ideology unless we have coherent responses to those things then The far right will fill the vacuum people do not want tinkering They don't want a broken system to be tinkered with they they are receptive across the West to those Promising a radical break from the status quo if we end up becoming Politically timid or presenting ourselves as such and dampening down the radical solutions needed then we will be outflanked in rhetoric by Extremist right-wing zealots who will scapegoat migrants and Muslims For all the injustices caused by the people at the top. So yes, let's form those alliances But if we end up conceding political ground on those terms then we won't you know We will actually help bolster the far right because they will be able to present themselves as the anti-system Political force and as soon as we've learned that you know, I mean the problem take France. It was the French socialist actually Elected what on their terms was or selected as their candidate Benoît Hamel he was on the left of the socialists and He he got a dropping in the presidential election. He got 6% whilst Melanchon Who stood as another radical candidate with France on some you? Stud independently of a socialist and the problem was is Hamel not only had the socialist establishment turning on him anyway And saying everyone vote Macron don't throw over this guy and but he was dragged down by the baggage of the socialists in power He was presented as being a pro-system politician, which wasn't actually fair But that's not the issue. It's as soon as you are seen as a pro-system politician Rather than an anti-system politician Then you have helped create the political conditions of Which the far right can exploit and even succeed and that's in Brazil They look the workers party look to many people like part of a corrupt establishment. They were in power for 16 years There were lots of problems with in huge corruption. Also, you know, police violence continued and you know, let's not glorify those he is They did do social reforms which lifted huge numbers of Brazilians out of poverty. They did big housing projects But nonetheless, you know There were still these huge problems in Brazilian society. It was the far I have managed to tap into But I just I don't see how it's possible. I mean when we talk about forming an alliance with centuries I I just and in our own context I don't know what I don't know what that would look like or how we would do it without without surrendering Politically in some fundamental ways should we be love-bombing remain whilst maintaining our leftist principles that we think are the solutions the country needs and that we think are The policies that could win an election in this point Should we be doing more to try and love-bomb which I mean is that's the most obvious sort of like liberal block The most obvious liberal social block in Britain is the people who are on the people's vote march I think we need to be warmer partly to I think if we look at the people's vote March, of course There were those who are I don't know, you know, basically Thing everything was going alright. It was generally okay before 2016, you know, this kind of you know And you and you get that from certain century centuries so-called Leaders who were you know, like Anna Subri or you know, or but even others on the centrist labor side who basically You know think fundamentally this was a time of good relatively good governance stability Well, it wasn't if you were disabled or or low-paid or or suffering the brunt of conservative austerity So you do get those but I actually don't think that's the case with a huge number of people who went on that March I think a lot of them a Well-disposed towards labor voted labor the last election and and if you asked them support things like I don't know Hiking taxes on the rich public ownership of utilities Getting rid of tuition fees and all the rest and they don't like Brexit most people most labor voters do not like Brexit Most labor members well even more labor members don't like Brexit They see it fundamentally as a reactionary hard-right Tory project Which is mixing xenophobia and a desire to have a race at the bottom in in terms of conditions Which under the conservatives is what Brexit is. I mean, there's no point pretending otherwise So we've got to understand that and be empathetic the issue is has always been how does labor deal with? reconciling a result its leadership did not want with the fact that You know that 80% of hackney voted remain and 70% of whole voted leave and they're both Labor heartlands that they need to bring together with the fact that in the last election the only seats label lost with six leave seats like Mansfield and Stoke and Trent South and the fact that a lot of leave seats or some leave seats became I went from safe labor seats to Marginals like Ashfield for example, and that labor can't win without a coalition of remainers and leavers and that means offering understanding the anger lots of remain labor voters have and accepting things like a customs union and And and also at the same time opposing the xenophobia unleashed by the Tory wing of the Brexit project but also having to deal with the fact that we lost the referendum and also, you know, I speak as somebody, you know I'm like most people on the radical left and deeply profoundly critical of you in his current formation And and believe, you know like the likes of Podemos in Spain arguing for radical reform and restructuring of the EU there are some of course you don't believe that's possible and just believe we should leave but anyway a left exit from the Opinion in a lexate was not on offer in the last referendum But I think what labor have to do is just you know, it's it's a very difficult political situation but I actually think they balanced it quite well, which is To oppose consistently despite the conspiracy theories or myths propagated by some of the centrist so-called remain Figures that love your commitment to calling them so cold. Well, it's just I mean what I mean I just I mean, you know because they obviously they didn't mean that as moderate and all the rest of it and most people think they're Centrist, I suppose. Yeah, you they don't get to claim the center ground is what you mean exactly I mean because I see the center ground to these guys because most people don't think in terms of left or right and if they ask They're like, well, I'm just a reasonable guy. Yeah, I'm a centrist and what I mean by what we mean by centrist is normally You know, you accept a lot of the neoliberal project in some form or other And and you don't social liberal fiscally conserved. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, yeah I mean, and I just think labor have to have that what is often an impossible balancing act Which is to try and negotiate that referendum result with also dealing with the dramatic the injustices Which caused people to vote for Brexit in the first place and I think that's the thing with so-called centrist I'm gonna keep calling that they hate it But you can't call them anything without kicking off you call them a Blair I they think you know, you've gone up to their mum and told them to f off or something But I mean they just want to be called center left, don't they? They're not gonna concede that to them. It's not gonna happen Try it where it happened. But they what I find striking about them is is they behave or that their understanding of politics is so Limited because they behave as though the crash never happened So they behave as well as a lot of them as though the whole world has just gone mad, you know They pathologize it that they're the only same ones left standing much of the rest of Britain has just succumbed to Hysteria and extremism They'd be lied and conned by nefarious political interests on on different sides And they don't have any understanding of so I saw this tweet by a former labor adviser Oh, no, not a labor adviser labor staffer talking about the 2012 Olympic opening ceremony and you know, how I you know, I'm gonna watch that and just wonder how did it all go wrong? You just kind of think, you know, that was four years after a massive financial crash Where austerity was unleashed two years earlier Where living standards have fallen for the longest period since the Napoleonic war where public service has been slashed I mean we could go on my social security has been decimated for so many people and it's just this kind of bafflement about about what about what has happened around them and that they don't understand that, you know Political crisis is obviously a symptom of wider broader social and economic convulsion in this country And and that's what I just find so bizarre. It's that it's that sense of bafflement of Of what's happening and their understanding of politics is just pre-crash It's as though the crash just simply did not happen and therefore You know, a lot of them have become what they always said about the left, which was Defined by what they're against not what they're for stuck in the past Obsessing the so-called glory a golden era looking for traitors not converts I mean, I mean some that has been often the habits of some of us on the left at various points But they have become like that And and it's that they have this total lack of political Curiosity and the difference is when we were like that the left was just a marginal political force We weren't entitled to the Labour Party Um, but we didn't have a sense of entitlement because we didn't have any Influence or connections particularly within the British media. So we were just this we didn't have 50% of the plp No And the phone numbers of all the common editors at the Guardian The times the independent A lot of them The ft every bbc producer Yeah, uh It's question time. So get your questions in as you're thinking of those as you're typing them down I'm going to tell you what I always tell you which is if you are enjoying this show Make sure you subscribe to our youtube channel Uh, tech wizard Gary was doing some analytics the other day He found out that only half of the people that watch this live are subscribed to our youtube channel I don't know what's going on there You will get updates every time we go live if you subscribe to the Navarra media youtube channel And it helps us grow. Also, please like this video As I said last week not for my affirmation, but so more people see it Uh, and third thing of course Navarra media is only possible because of the support of you guys Uh, we are primarily volunteer run And don't have any advertising. So we are we exist purely on the basis of your subscriptions As you know, we are asking for One hour's wage or the equivalent of one hour's wage a month so we can keep working around the clock Let's get these questions In right. Oh, this is a miserable one. Oh, hello. Stuart Perry Hughes. Oh in too late for brazil Which is the next country we should be worrying about? Well, that's cheerful, isn't it? Um, which is the next country we should be worrying about? Um, I mean a lot of them I mean obviously in germany the Alternative of deutschland in pols now is Has supplanted the spd as The main opposition party and I mean that we can expect that to grow. I think in france the danger is with macron And who's often seen as you know by centrist the king prince over the water And but who you know, let's not forget in the first round of the presidential election at the top four candidates All got quite a similar result relatively speaking crowded between about 20 and 25 percent Um, and the vast majority of people voted for macron to stop lapen all the polling shows that he's now catastrophically unpopular The danger in france is not just the reconstituted far right national front It's that the so-called centre-right gaullists have shifted dramatically to the right and have started to co-opt That agenda so we should be worried about that. I mean italy clearly the far right already in power But the polling shows they're very popular in in in italy. So we could the fear there is that that could shift even further to the right um, I think I mean in latin america, I mean I mean in argentina. It's concerned. They they have a right. I mean, that's actually the right-wing regime there is Is pretty unstable at the moment But you know, it's interesting in latin america which suffered the initially Some of the worst excesses of neoliberalism. So it wasn't a surprise That it became the first continent with any significant break from neoliberalism But the pendulum generally there Has has shifted not entirely because obviously in mexico, which is the other major You know, brazil and mexico the two biggest latin american nations the left the first time in mexico for decades Has won the presidency, but I would say I think those are places particularly. I mean eastern europe Uh, hungary continues to degenerate in terms of you know, I've been there to interview dissidents It becomes an ever more authoritarian right-wing regime poland um Despite some hiccups in the recent in recent regional elections the polish Hard-right authoritarian government continues to chip away Um at democracy, uh austria the far right. I mean, this is a bit depressing Yeah, you don't have to go through every country where something bad's going to happen, right rhubarb has asked Uh, again, it's not the most chirpy of questions. Has politics become more violent? adversarial today um, I I suppose my only caution there is when you get there's some time false uh comparison between the left and or the sense of Lefty's being rude on twitter to uh to to the right wing in in british. Well the right in in britain the right Run the british media largely and they have front pages saying things like enemies of the people Traders saboteurs mutineers to describe not just their opponents, but just mild critics Or all those they see as a roadblock to their ideology. Um, we obviously have A growing fascist terrorist movement. We've had the murder of a labor MP by a fascist terrorist We had a fascist terrorist who killed uh, who launched an attack on a mosque with his truck who came to london saying you wanted to Uh kill jerry corbin as a terrorist supporter and city counters a bonus We've obviously had in in america. We've had the the far right murder of jews in the synagogue um far right terrorist who sent uh letter bombs to Um critics of trump. So there's no equation. I just think sometimes is a case of There are various lefties being rude on twitter and the difference is you know, oh to to to hard right or right wing discourse Where the you know, the conservatives Talk about their opponents as illegitimate as extremists as terrorist supporters Agents of foreign regimes with the likes of sagy javid who's a possible future Tory leader describes momentum as a neo fascist organization And then lefties on social media because that's one of the only forums the left Can actually talk freely and organize and have a platform Being a bit rude and that's seen as you know, a false equivalence. I think the other thing I'd say on that though is A lot of the anger you see On social media, uh, isn't because of you know, it's this sense of what happened to twitter Why is it gone so angry and you get this all the time? I I think is just politics has polarized Because of social and economic crisis it started in scotland. That was the kind of foreshadow the referendum there Again a near miss with independence and that had so much to do Often with people voting. I didn't agree with independence, but they were voting often against the rotten system Then of course, uh, the labor's internal civil wars And brexit and those are all symptoms of the fact that uh, yeah, of course people are angry about their deteriorating uh, living conditions and standards and The fact that you know, that's robbed them of optimism and that can manifest itself in anger But I don't think you know, it's a sense of people have suddenly just become less polite and and and how outrageous that is I think that's just a sense of If you get a social and economic crisis as we've gone through now for over a decade That will have political consequences and that anger will go in lots of different directions But it's a liberal fallacy to compare Anger of the left and the right. It's like uh mit romney. He said The u.s. Republican. He said you've got those on the left So you've got those on the right who scapegoats immigrants scapegoat immigrants and those on the uh, on the left who scapegoat bankers Hmm, so bankers did plunge the country and the world into an economic calamity. It's not a protected characteristic No, exactly. It's not like, you know, obviously Immigrants didn't immigrants haven't objectively caused these problems and and and you know, obviously injustice is not like the weather It's not just it doesn't just happen. There are people agents responsible for causing injustice So it's not like, you know, obviously there are people to blame for things going bad Um, but you you have to blame the right people is being angry at bankers and and uh politicians who are linked to them and Facilitated what happened. Is that just a viable? Yes is angry? Immigrants because there isn't enough housing or enough jobs just a viable no and that's why you can't compare You can't equate different forms of anger as though all anger is just bad in the abstract This is an interesting question. Will Eden how could a Corbyn government challenge the trumps and bolsynarrows of the world? Um, I think what I think Corbynism has already done if you look for example Uh in the us what we've seen is a kind of positive feedback loop between the us and the british left So they're learning from each other's ideas and strategies There's some personal overlap frankly, you know from both sides You've had you know, you've had some people in the burning campaign who came to work on Have come to work with momentum in the Corbyn project generally Um, and I think what what Corbynism has done if we think particularly across europe where social democracy is in crisis Where various social democratic parties are collapsing and what was happening was, you know What what's happening with social democracy is crumbling in in three main different directions New movements of the left The xenophobic and nativist right and civic nationalist parties and that was what was happening to labor in 2015 Uh to yukip to the greens and to the scottish national party and in 2017 that went into reverse So what that's done is offer a coherent alternative Which can be a block to the rise of the far right across europe in america So a lot of the left are looking correctly because you know If you were supported the german social democrats no 15 percent in the opinion polls That's the far right Have more support than you or the dutch labor party or elsewhere Seeing a party which didn't win the last election as we're endlessly told but got 40 percent of the vote After two years after one of its worst post-war defeats that offers an alternative in strategy If that wasn't there imagine what we'd be going through the same thing and there would be almost nothing as a as an alternative example So i think the fact that it's giving the us and the european left An alternative and if it comes to power and it will face huge opposition and problems But being of power and being able to succeed will embolden those movements across the world Uh, and i think that's the best that can do in those situations. I'm rephrasing the question, but from nicholas darrah What did you learn from slavoj zizek? Um, but you spoke to earlier in the week in a guardian interview which you can watch on your youtube channel Um, I learned and I tried to replicate this in this is just to speak really really fast And just stop anybody else. You don't do the nose thing though. I think that would have really helped I think he had a cold that day. So it was even more key. No, he's been doing that for decades He has yeah, what did I learn? I can't I mean Do you agree he he said so the contra the controversial thing from that interview was hilary's the problem not trump, right? Yeah, I mean, I don't well, I mean clinton's talking about running again, which would be a disaster I mean for me clinton, you know Clintonism should we say all the centrist democrats their problem is one of their key problems is they allow trump to happen But obviously trump is a far bigger calamity. You know the idea In that election, you just you know as some did A very few vocal very small very vocal small minority treat, you know trump and clinton as though you'd sit it out I mean, I backed sanders Like everyone on the left. Um, and I I don't like what clintonism has to offer or what it represents Um, but obviously you can't equate the two and trumpism is a horrific threat to Uh, you know to basic progressive norms Um, so no, I don't agree with that. No, that's you know clintonism. Obviously, whether it be support from imperialist wars Uh, which you know, we've had under under trump We got an escalation of bombing raids in iraq and syria, which you know, he promised gloves off. That's what happened There was a huge increase in civilian deaths as a consequence His warmongering with iran So this idea you've got amongst some that actually clinton was the real warmongering trump wasn't it was just Farcical because yes admittedly under under clinton presidency. There would have been warmongering There would have been military interventions as there were under previous democratic presidents, vietnam and and so on Um, but you know the idea you can equate What would have been two warmongering? presidents one of which has Is legitimized the growing far right not just in america the rest of the world you it's just it's just You know, I find that a bit infantile Neva clinton nor trump Neva clinton nor trump, but you liberals if you're willing to get behind a pro-social democratic campaign It's a social democratic politics get on board. We'll love you Exactly. Amen to that. I mean it'll be interesting to see how I respond to sanders becomes the democrat nominee will the centrist democrats rush behind him in a Presidential election enthusiast that they're backing him it is going to be an interesting one Because a lot of the client and don't mean they didn't do that with corbin did they? No, but can you imagine in america the difference is the democrats aren't You know, they're not a social democratic party. They're not a party organically linked to the trade union movement. They're They're donor bases corporate america. It's like silicon valley and and liberal, you know multi-billionaires and and and people in the digital economy These are not people who want a a social democratic government Which is what sanders would offer if he got enough of I mean then he'd have the congress, you know He'd have congress to deal with as well. No, I mean it would be fascinating to see Those who criticize people on the left and not enthusiastically enough backing clinton What would they do a sanders was the nominee? I doubt they will be enthusiastically out there Cheering him on that we'll see if he gets it Oh and jones, thank you for joining me tonight always a pleasure right back at you consistent friend of the show Yeah, loving it Uh, thank you for watching Uh, this was tisky. So we are navara media As I've already said what I'm gonna say again, please subscribe to the youtube channel like this video keep commenting I'm enjoying them and subscribe to navara media. It's you guys that make this possible Uh, so we'll see you next Monday Good night