 and say welcome, thanks for joining us. There won't be much of a chitty chat chat, so if you can tell, you know, I feel like Julia, some of the best days start with a little bit of, you know, panic. And so all is well, but we are thrilled to have today's guest with us, Mike Forster, and I hope that I'm saying your last name correctly. If not, please do, you know, school me on that, Mike. Mike joins us as the CEO of Generate Impact, and we'll be talking to us during today's episode about charting your NPO technology roadmap. So we're excited to have Mike, and we also wanna make sure that you know who we are if you are new to the episode. Julia Patrick joins us as the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as your nonprofit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group, and we would not be able to have these continued conversations if it weren't for these presenting sponsors. And so excited to have Mike actually joining us today from Generate Impact, one of our very generous presenting sponsors. So thank you to Generate Impact and to each and every one of our presenting sponsors that invest their time, their energy, and their overall mission to help support and elevate other agencies and their missions across the nation. So thank you so much for joining us today. So again, our guest is from Generate Impact, CEO, president with Generate Impact. Mike, welcome and thanks so much for joining us today and sharing your time and expertise with us. Yeah, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Looking forward to it. So Mike, really quickly, before we move on, Generate Impact is really an interesting organization because you really are working more towards the nonprofit side of things. And so before we start peppering you with all these questions that we have, could you give us a really quick rundown about the Generate Impact ethos and kind of what you're doing in the sector? Sure, so we're a technology company that actually doesn't believe technology is the solution. We believe that people and processes are really the core solution and the technology just supports that process. So usually when we come with problems, or we hear about problems or issues, it's a lot of people want to throw technology at it, but really it's people alignment, process alignment, and then the technology helps supports that. Wow, disruption if I've never heard it, right? Like that is definitely for a technology company to say, we're not always pushing the technology, we're pushing the people and the process so that the technology can truly enhance what they are doing. And I love that we of course have had Brian Greenwald on and phenomenal mind as well, Mike. And so really excited to learn more from you as we talk about charting your NPO technology roadmap. Why do we need this technology roadmap? And maybe let's start out for us that are really novice. What is it? Right? What is it? Yeah, so technology roadmap, we hear lots of different phrases. So it could be a technology roadmap, a systems roadmap, an IT attack, there's all different names for it. But as a roadmap implies it's a lot of people think it's just to get from point A to point B, but really it's this encompassing thought diagram and document and process and strategizing that really brings it back about a holistic view of your technical infrastructure and organization that includes budgeting and staffing and life cycle management. It's more than just putting the widgets in the right spots. And one of the things that I'm unfortunately familiar with with many nonprofits and sadly of many sizes is kind of the IT technology falls on someone that knows how to press, control, alt, delete the fastest. And so I don't always feel like we have the right tech staff in place. And so knowing that generate impact exists to help us even create the roadmap but then really all of the infrastructure that needs to go with that. Because there are so many times again that that technology piece is simply added to someone's plate and they're not really the expert when it comes to go. Yeah and budgeting and staffing really go hand in hand because as we all know staffing is generally most organizations number one expense and just paying the good people to do the good work. And so the budgeting of the nonprofit tech roadmap really allows an organization to think ahead and not just be reactive. Being proactive allows organization to save money. There's significant cost savings and being proactive versus reactive. I mean, when you're in it and the fires are burning and your current technology isn't working and there's process gaps everywhere and you just need to throw a solution on it ends up being a really expensive band aid that could have been a much smoother, cost effective, high adoption, implementation of something that really could serve the organization, their constituents really well instead of a reactionary really expensive implementation or purchase that at the end of the day people aren't excited or bought in for. Right and you know, I think that this is an interesting thing because I can't wait for you to talk about this because Brian said something really interesting to me when we first met before we even, I think really before we even started any type of relationship with generate impact. And he said, we need to all be thinking about that we are technology companies and we may not, we may run a food bank or we may run an after school program but at the heart of it until we understand that we are technology companies to some form and function we're gonna really be hindered. And so I think for so many of us in the nonprofit sector this is like one of those big moments of redesigning our thought. And part of that is this technology management life cycle and I'm wondering if that would help us to understand how we need to be looking at these systems. Yeah, technology, every organization has some level of technology. They just have to to be able to run their functions. And so having that technology pre-planned and thought through is really a key advantage to controlling staffing and budget costs because technology needs TLC, right? Just like any living, breathing, adopting thing needs TLC there's updates and features and product life cycle and things like that that really need care and attention. Another thing that a lot of organizations don't realize until it's too late is that and especially nonprofit organizations where someone wears multiple hats and that you're thin and you're trying to do a lot with a little is that proprietary knowledge that this one person down in central records or the HR person who is here for 20 years happens to know all of these things about the technology that was implemented when they were here, the thought is with this life cycle management in the roadmap, you can pinpoint and identify these crucial areas of gaps and risks that you have and that you're able to mitigate them way before they become problems. And so you can identify them and rectify them before that person gets sick or turns in their two week notice or and then you're trying to play catch up having this life cycle management and this thought around that really prevents a lot of pain for that organization down the road. I'm curious if you can tell us Mike, how many people or individuals need to be involved with this process? Cause we need to talk about that one steady HR person that's been here 20 years, how many people really should be privy to the life cycle management of technology and then really looking at this roadmap on an ongoing basis, how many individuals should make up this team? Yeah, so talking to an organization that puts people in process first, that's a really easy answer. It's people, if you have a person in your organization they should be involved at some level with this because the technology is touching them. And so by having a roadmap and developing a roadmap you can spend time talking to the individuals on the front lines using the technology to identify the gaps where maybe the current software isn't or the current technology isn't meeting all the needs or there's process gaps or things that they're doing repetitive that you can find. And lots of times middle and upper management aren't privy to that information cause they're not in the weeds, they don't understand it. And you have those really great workers that just bear through it and they just do what they can and they just do a good job and they work so hard but at the end of the day, go in having someone to go in and just say, let's take a step back, let's look at our technology infrastructure, let's look at our process infrastructure, let's talk about our people and what they're doing and really put that together and then you can really start to form that in addition to the people on the front lines, I mentioned them a few times, but leadership, the ones that control the purse strings really need to be involved and get by in early on that discussion because to do the technology roadmap and successful technology implementations, you really need to have some thought and we call them discoveries of other organizations and nonprofits based, call them different things, but really the discovery is gonna be that key and to have upper management budget for the discovery instead of budget for the project and try to shoehorn a discovery ahead, really in our experience has been the difference between a really successful implementation of or transition with buying and adoption versus a technology solution that's last minute thrown in, there's pressure, people are scrambling to try to get the data migrated, the data cleaned, it doesn't fit from point A to point B cleanly and so and finally the other group as I'm thinking is your board, nonprofits have boards that really need to have buying, they have great connections, they generally have a significant say in the strategy and so technology roadmap with board input and buying is gonna be crucial. Okay, go ahead, Julia. Okay, so this is like, I'm showing my age here, but paint a picture for me, is this like the old fashioned like org chart or is this more of a narrative or is this like on a spreadsheet? I mean, how physically do we capture this information or maybe the word is articulate this information? Yeah, so usually chalkboard, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, so that's a great question. So lots of organizations do it differently and prefer to read things differently. Some, especially when you get in the board and the upper management, they really like charts and graphs and visualizing because you can tell a lot with a picture and so they tend to like that. Other more mid-management, project manager type and individuals really love the narrative. Give me the details, give me the nitty gritty. And so I think it's a combination of all of those things. You need that summary high level, where are we going in five, 10 years? You don't wanna read a 20-page document for that, but you just wanna be able to get a high level of view and other instances with that, coupled with that, you do want that narrative, that description of, okay, in 2022, you say this, what does that really entail? Let's walk through that. In 2025, you say this, it's gonna be a little bit more vague, but what do you mean by that? What's the direction? And then organizationally, where is the organization going? And then that technology roadmap really comes alongside that to support that organizational movement. So if there's going to be a new initiative in two years, what technology is there that can support that initiative? You don't wanna wait for that initiative to get kicked off, to try to find that budget and then try to find the right software to implement it. Really, that should be in the beginning stages of that conversation. One of the things I'm seeing, and I think this really comes through grants that are reimbursement grants, Mike. And so there are software and there are systems that the organizations are being, they're given to say, here's the system that we need you to use. And so it's not necessarily forecasted by the organization, but it's literally kind of mandated and required. And I'm thinking, that is coming onto a lot of organizations plates right now, as well as the continuation of advancement in technology. So some of these things, while we might have a beautiful roadmap on a chart board or however we put it, right? Then it's really, and I think, as you said, it's that living, breathing document because it will inevitably change, right? And how do we adapt to those changes? Because so much over the last two years has really taken a hold when it comes to technology advancements. Yeah, that is a great point because there's a lot of nonprofits and I've actually been a part of one where you're mandated to use certain technologies or you're mandated to use certain products. How do I shoehorn this in? Because generally the funding, in my experience, hasn't been enough to cover everything that's needed from beginning to end. It's here implement this technology with this budget. And so you're trying to figure out how to do that best ways you can. And so what we have found is going back to this idea of a discovery, instead of just trying to match one-for-one what you're currently doing to this new technology that's being mandated or forced upon you or strongly encouraged. You take that step back, you take a few weeks and you bring in either an IT partner or maybe you can do it in-house with guidance from someone who's experienced in this. But you really look at your people, your processes and then you overlay this new technology that's coming in and you really try to understand how can we make this technology work for us instead of us working for the technology? And that mindset in and of itself will go a long way into a successful implementation because when you try to work for the technology, the technology comes in and it's like, okay, this is how it's telling me to run my business. This is how it's telling me to run my nonprofit. You're really gonna struggle and it's not gonna be usually a good fit and get very frustrating for everyone. So having that mindset of how can I make this technology work for me the best that I can, really spending as much time up front, you'll never go wrong doing it that way. It's a great point. Wow, I love that advice. I really do. But don't, don't, don't, don't. Okay, what is this gonna cost us? Because we've had a lot of technology discussions over the last couple of weeks from cybersecurity to data management. I mean, it just seems like this has really been something Jared and I have been discussing. But we have no idea what these things cost or how we should even budget for them. And I'm wondering if maybe you could kind of help shed some light on that for us. Yeah, so our recommendation is to budget for the discovery. That's generally the best, surest way to get timeline, cost, risks. The value proposition of planning ahead of time and setting aside funds for that has really a new idea for a lot of individuals as budgeting for the discovery. Lots of times the budget conversation comes up and it's, I've got X number of dollars to do this implementation and the software costs are this much. And I'm gonna have to have this much leftover for this individual or this support team for the life cycle management maintenance support, whatever the case may be. But really earmarking or allocating money ahead of time to do that will save significant money in the long run. So if you can budget, so recently I was talking with an organization about their IT roadmap, their technology roadmap for the next two years. And one of the things that they requested was they wanted a estimate for a thorough discovery for a particular software that they're implementing ahead of the proposal for that software. And I thought that was really innovative and really ahead of the curve in that because planning ahead for that discovery will allow them to budget appropriately because as we know, lots of times without that pre-work the projects run late and they run over budget and most people don't really like that. And so being able to plan ahead is gonna be really key. And as a little secret that a lot of people probably realized, but we've had on our previous blog posts and things is when you don't have that discovery ahead of time, then the quote and the estimate for any implementation is always gonna be higher because there's padded for that worst case scenario. We have to plan if we're not gonna reveal on earth all of those little gaps or those little things. I like to call them rates that you step on that you went during an implementation that you just kind of get whacked in the face with something unexpectedly. If you don't surface those early then they become really expensive later. And so spending that money upfront which doesn't have to be expensive it doesn't have to be a lot of money. We personally, our discoveries can range anywhere in the 5,000 to 10, 30,000 depending on the size. I mean, some implementations are fairly small and so you could do those really quickly and others are more significant. They're heavy lift, it's organizational change. Those are gonna be a little bit more pricey but spending that proportional to what that organization that new organizational change or that new software is gonna cost is really generally a percentage, a smaller percentage than what a lot of people think. Wow. And I heard you mentioned two years for this one particular roadmap. How long can we plan to map out, right? Is it a two years? Can we do three to five? Can we even go, how long can we plan? Yeah, great question. So that ranges. I mean, you can have as long as you want you just have to be prepared to be agile because the rate of change with technology and emergence of best in class software and technology is always changing so quickly. So some organizations do just a couple of years out but what you can do is that three to five or that one to five, you can have a five year roadmap very easily. You just have to be a little bit more open and less specific the further out you go just because you really aren't sure what's gonna be around the bend. But for a year out, you should be able to get fairly specific about what exactly the organization is doing what technologies needed to support that and then how to implement that technology. And then maybe three to five years out you're getting a little bit more vague, a little bit more generic. As an organization, we wanna be here. We anticipate the technology needs to support that will be this. We anticipate staffing to support that will look like this. But yeah, being agile is gonna be really, flexible is gonna be really important the further out you plan. And having that forecasting too, I believe I had said maybe with Brian a previous episode about, can we expect funders or investors to help support the cost of this? And I would imagine to have this discovery and to have the roadmap, one of the things I coach often is grant writing. And I say, when you have the opportunity to add additional documents, that is your opportunity to put something like this technology roadmap and how it warrants that additional investment or why that investment should be a part of the ask that is going into this proposal. So I hope funders, if you're listening that this is also taken into consideration when it comes to investments through the organizations that you're supporting. I couldn't agree more that the technology roadmap, I mean, because look, the reality is that technology for nonprofits is for the end user, right? It's to support the constituents, the people being served, right? And if the technology can't do that, then why are you implementing it in the first place? And so it's generally a pretty easy sell to grants, to investors, to donors, to those that if you show them, hey, if we implement this technology, we can see this many more patients. We can do this many more surgeries. We can feed this many more kids. We can help and shelter this many more women or we can, you know, the list goes on and on and the whole purpose of technology, right? The whole purpose of it is to enable those things, is to end downstream help individuals. That's the whole purpose of it. And so being able to show the roadmap and say, this is a technology we're implementing and by doing this, we're gonna increase efficiency in these ways and able to serve more people. That's a very easy conversation to have with donors and grant writers to help support writing them, but also those investors, you know, just be able to say your dollar here in this technology is gonna return four fold down the road. Yeah, well, I would imagine too, you know, any investor donor low level to the highest level, when they see this type of information that you're sharing, it would build confidence and it might even unlock other funds, you know, that say, oh my gosh, yeah, we really, you know, we like this approach and we wanna support it or mimic it in other places with other, you know, organizations we work with. I just think it speaks volumes to the management side of a nonprofit. And so for me, I think that's a really good investment. Yeah, I couldn't agree more than when you show up with a technology plan. It shows that you have your head in the right place in terms of the reality in which you live. Like you understand you're a technology company, you understand the world and your business runs on technology and to harness that and control that and to be able to manage that for your organization instead of being controlled by it is a game changer when it comes to confidence for those. I'm the same way. If somebody shows up without a technology plan and is just kind of shooting from the hip on when it comes to that, it really is, wow, they really need a lot of assistance and help in that particular area. But if they come in with a strong idea and roadmap of where they're going, where they wanna go, how the technology supports that, it's like, wow, they're leveraging because they're leveraging the technology to save money, right, technology is used in that capacity. You know, technology is costing you more than something's wrong in that. That's a whole nother conversation for a whole nother show. But that technology should be increasing efficiency, right? It should be helping your end users use the tools more quickly. Should be able to not create gaps in losing donors or sustainers or, you know, not having people fall through the gaps. And so that's really what the technology is for. And if it's not doing that, then you have something not set up right. I think my sustainability model, you know, and as you said, it's, you know, we can really create this roadmap for the year. And as we go into three, four, five years, be a little bit more vague as times continue to change. But when we share the technology roadmap with our funders, with our board, you know, with our constituents and certainly with our staff, then I think that really helps to bring buy-in and education throughout the community as to why this investment, be it 5,000, 30,000, depending on what you're looking for there, is such a wise investment for the efficiencies, as you said, Mike, of the staff that's implementing the mission in your community. So this has been just so eye-opening for me. I always love having these conversations because truth be told, this is not my area of expertise. So I am a sponge and soaking it up. And I love it because when I do perform strategic planning, you know, retreats and facilitation, I definitely bring up technology because I feel that is an area that we're constantly reacting to and not many organizations have really set the chart for this technology roadmap and to perform, you know, perform this discovery. So, Mike, we are so grateful to have you and your team at Generate Impact, a part of the nonprofit sector. We definitely need more of these conversations. And again, as technology continues to advance, as do our systems and our programs and our people. So thank you for all that you do. And again, sharing your time and valuable expertise with us. Can you tell them? Thank you so much. Hey, in case you didn't know who we were, I'm Julia Patrick coming to you live from my office this morning because we had a little technological glitch in the studio. So Mike was on a very interesting day for us, so that it speaks volumes to what we're doing. I've been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, who keeps it all together for us. We wanna thank all of our presenting sponsors. Hey, we have a new logo on there, Jared. Nice, welcome back to your part-time controller. Excited to have them and really excited and grateful to have each and every one of these presenting sponsors. Again, Mike with Generate Impact, thank you for your time today and to all of our presenting sponsors that keep these conversations going as we all continue to nap. We sure do. And as we like to remind everyone at the conclusion of every episode of the nonprofit show, stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone.