 G'day, folks. It's Jacko here. That is the Australian action for costume is just scringing at that because we have got a Fantastic and I mean that this is like a one of those mind-blowing episodes that definitely needs a part to in my opinion of from way down under Cole Clayton who is an osteopath practicing osteopathy if I'm pronounced that right in the In the I've put a few extra O's it's like it's like Callan aesthetics, but In the cranial field now you may or may not know what that is Timbo Brain head what we're talking about osteopathy is interesting one and this is one thing which It's probably like as Cole mentions in the in the podcast It's not perfectly well defined like if you talk physiotherapists You can talk about this is specific what they do often sort of thinking about musculoskeletal or the neural system Osteopathy kind of out encompasses a little bit of everything and as we would have affectionately say a little bit of woo-woo Which we need to be afraid of because basically what we mean by woo-woo is stuff that we actually don't understand about human physiology And neurology at this stage, but at some point down the line research will start to shed more light on it So it's not like it's it's not it's not voodoo It's more about just we don't probably don't fully understand the systems at play And that's what I think was the greatest thing about this conversation is we could have got super specific about some of Stuff that Cole does and how his treatment processes work but we talked loads around just the complexity of the human body and Starts into understand or to just appreciate what we know what we don't know Where we can start to kind of look for different solutions and different perspectives on how we work And if you're interested in kind of holistic well-being and health and this is a great one to listen to And if you're a practitioner who wants your eyes opened and just broadening your horizons of hearing somebody else talk very Knowledgeably about their own journey and into some areas, which I've got to admit I know very very little about because Never really been exposed to these sorts of things before and there's always gonna be new things and new perspectives and Jackal and I have reflected on this and said actually that's a real challenge for practitioners to be able to incorporate and Encompass all this stuff and everything that you'd know already is but it's really good to have just Listen to a conversation Which is pretty organic and we didn't really have a huge amount of stuff planned We kind of just let it go where it went to the way I wanted to go and just see what resonates and I think You definitely have a different perspective if you're in that practitioner field off the back of this podcast Yeah, there's definitely like the whole the whole concept of the when he's talking about like the the complexity of doing something like talking Being like one of the most like fine motor difficult things that we have to learn to do in like how many tiny little bones and muscles And joints and things that are in our face in in that jaw the importance of like our teeth and all these things that we don't Really think about and sort of probably just take for granted Having our eyes open to like potentially how important these things are and as Tim said whether they whether they Whether there's sort of whether it's quite new The proofs in the pudding of some of the results that people are Getting and one of the one of the most sort of fine thing I loved about the conversation with Cole of what his approach was that he was very very Happy to go like I haven't got that all of the solutions for everyone But I've got a network of people that if there's I might be able to recognize that okay They need to go and see this person they need to go and see this specialist and like I'm just gonna be like that I'm sometimes it's it's for me to try and help and solve it for other times for me to go No, this is not my specialism. This is I'm gonna start to put connect to people within within that network and Yeah, I think that's a great place for forever for people to be rather than always thinking that like I've got the solution for Everyone it might just be that actually you feel fit part of that part of that puzzle and then final thing if you like Did you redo's I never heard someone I want to hear someone live player did you do and why that might be important hold on to the end because called catch the big did you do out and Yeah, if you were obviously there's an experience there on the podcast But if you want to there's a visual representation of this all of the podcasts are now on YouTube as well So if you haven't yet subscribed, you're not one of the hundred thousand plus people that subscribe to our YouTube channel yet And make sure you do Check out on YouTube if you're watching this actually right now on YouTube then thank you But make sure you hit subscribe if you haven't done all right Let's get into this one. Thanks. There's plenty to chew through and this is a conversation with me jacko and Cole Clayton Our cranium osteopath all about cranium osteopathy. I've got that right jacko with the right number O's in the right places I've got no idea how to say that word. All right roll that jingle listen players You're listening to the movement strength and play podcast by the school of calisthenics here are your hosts Tim and jacko So we are very excited to welcome Cole Clayton on to the podcast He has not only bought himself and his amazing depth of knowledge, but also a didgeridoo And we'll get into why we might have that Cole welcome to the podcast Thanks jacko Pleasure's all ours. We're really looking forward to this it's this conversation and just to sort of introduce Yourself to the audience. I will butcher the whole Osteopathy osteopath osteo osteo osteo osteo I've seen it I've seen an osteopath in the past Once and very much enjoyed that some people I know in the past of like confused these things have gone like with Like Kyro osteo, like that's all the same stuff, isn't it like well Yeah, we can clear that sort of stuff up all those misconceptions up But who is Cole Clayton and and what of you? How have you got to where you are today? Long story But um, yeah, I'm an osteopath practice here in Byron Bay But I sort of I went I go around things topsy-turvy back to front So I started out at art school as anyone would Studying drawing and painting And then I find myself here. So yeah, I did a lot of work After art school, I did personal training and then I did corporate health and then I Pivoted for a little while actually came over your way lived in Scotland for a bit And then came back and did more PT and then I actually I actually met a dentist so I Was about to give up my I did a lot of work with Paul check if you know Paul like not necessarily personally with him but a lot of his courses Closed myself as a check practitioner, I guess and I just I don't know I hit a dead end with it and This one guy Insisted to come and see me. He's like I I want to see a check practitioner. I'm coming to see you and I'm like Dude, you know, I'm kind of bit wishy-washy with I'm kind of giving it up Well, and he was a density. I gotta say so he comes in it No, no, he was just a friend of a friend gas. I still I still talk to him to this day And yeah, he came he came in and he had a blowing his shoulder out Okay And but he had a missing tooth on that side on that same side that he blown it out And I said dude like we can do heaps with that shoulder, but we've really got to get your occlusion right before we can really rehab it and And there's this, you know, the rule of three times something comes up. It's worth taking notice So this particular dentist had come out three times like in the last week So I was like dude, everyone's raving about this cat go see him and I rode him I love the friend. I love the just the Lingo in Australia Everyone's been mentioning this cat Let go see if like that's that's nothing to you It's good. It's good. Look, sorry Well, well, actually your name is very Can I know? Apologies, I should have put on my normally very good I should have put on my Australian accent They know I'm fantastic with accents and I will put it on later. Don't worry Anyway, so big tiny he just he just rings me up out of the blue. He's like, oh, I'm really impressed that you knew this was a Primary dental problem come and talk to me. I was like, yeah, dude Okay, so I rang him back and he's like come to my practice and I go into his practice And and I said nah, I'm giving this up man I'm going to my lawns and do maintenance and stuff and he's like you look me straight in the eye And he's just like I'd never forget this moment. It's pivotal, right? He looked me straight in the eye and he goes And I'm like, nah, dude, I am dude He's like, no, you're not he said come and watch me work So I was like, he said just give me two hours. I was like fine So I went and watched him work and it was pretty cool. Like he was he was a Really Progressive practitioner, but what he showed me that day was his picture, right? And and it's this picture of a girl. She doesn't look well. She's overweight. She She looks like she's lovely like a really Awesome person, but she's just struggling, you know, and she was in pain She was on a lot of end-up which is a painkiller Strong one, you know and and then he showed me this picture of the other girl And I was like he's like, you know, what do you think and I was like, yeah Well that second girl's beautiful, you know amazing like real clear eyes big, you know smile She looks well. She looks happy. He goes. It's the same girl. I'm like, no way. He's like, yeah, it's the same girl So what how what this is this is insane and then say that was like really pivotal This was what he was doing was developing skeletal Structures in the face and skull to create airway and that was what was killing this girl. She couldn't breathe and so then I was like, yeah, dude, like I got to work with you and so I forced my way into his practice and learned a lot of stuff from him and Was exposed a lot of different types of practitioners and then I was exposed to my mentor and good friend George While I was teaching a course for this dentist I was literally teaching a course for him and George came along and I was he said, oh this guy's amazing You know, he's the king of the osteopaths and I was like No pressure and this bloke walks up the stairs is like the loveliest guy I've ever met and I'm like, are you George? He's like, yeah, yeah, so he introduced me to osteopathy and then what I had to do was I had all this like knowledge I'd I'd traveled the world like us and Had amazing exposure to amazing lecturers that mostly out of America He that came to Australia and I went to the States but I didn't really have the The scales if you like terms of musically, you know, like I could I could riff And I could do come up with some pretty amazing different melodies and understandings, but I didn't have the formal background So then at one point I was 38 years old and I was just like hey if I'm sitting here in five years and I haven't done this I Can't live with that dude So I turned around and just flipped the computer open I already had a master's in clinical rehabilitation by that point Flip the computer open and applied for a double degree with a bachelor and master's combo five years Smash myself through that pain and agony for how old be you when you finish that yeah, so Wow Well, that was last year. So I was 44 nice I'm a big fan of collecting educational certificates. I like it I've got so many I I got Two master's degrees in health and two bachelor's degrees. I'm done. I'm tapping out of collecting them for sure But you know, yeah, that it's worthwhile like you guys have done them You know, you know the pain of it. It's but at the end of the day, it's like an initiation You have to have I think so now I combine and all through like I put myself through uni doing breathing retraining with kids and also are a facial Well, I call it cranial facial rehabilitation exercises So it's all these funny faces you can make to retrain muscles of the lips face and tongue So I do that and I at the same time George taught me cranial osteopathy and then I've got my exercise rehab background So right here in this clinic I do osteopathy cranial osteopathy breathing retraining and then I've got a little gym out here So I I really kind of mix Just to zoom out. Let's get inside the second jacket. I'm just I'm interested on as you mentioned that Colby Because you know when you've got practitioners who have been across a number of different fields had exposure to lots of different people How do you sort of see? I'm gonna try and phrase this correctly now How do you see like the human body the the physiology the kinetic chain the the neural system? Like we've kind of over the years as well expose ourselves to new things and you start to your eyes is broader, right? So one of the big sort of like game changes for us was probably spending some time with the guys in the National Circus in the UK Who puts on to Z health about brain-based training and applied neurology and started to think more about Distributing visual systems and how that's gonna affect movement outcomes and these are like I think what's interesting around this sort of stuff is it's a It's two pages of the textbook course that you learn about we've got this neural input is that you've got your afferent You've got your integrative systems around the brain And then you get a moot pattern, but no one really sort of dives into this site these particular areas And it's as you start to peel back and you sort of spend more time that you then start to see how connected it is And then how complex it is. I mean you're talking about fixing a tooth to get a shoulder sorted like most people just not in that space I guess my question is very broad. What have you just got? What's your kind of like current? Context outlook on that sort of where we are at with understanding Rehabilitation the human body and how complicated it is because it's it's hard for people to kind of go I've got a shoulder problem So I'm gonna stretch this muscle and we're going when it could be because you're you spend 10 hours a day So our computer for the last 10 years and your eyes are all messed up And your brain just just got no idea where your shoulder is in space anymore Like I've thrown a load of stuff out your bed Just anything resonating on what do you think because I don't it's very hard to kind of package that up into a very succinct question because it's it's complex Yeah, I think I get it like because he used the word we as well So you sort of said not necessarily what I Where I'm at with it, but like where we all are with it and I think right now it's like awesome time I remember working in a gym back in I Don't know 2001 and there was this guy came in on a cable machine And he started doing a little bit of rotation and we were all sat at the desk went like You know It was all machines, you know like that's how we'd been taught as fitness instructors and then I was so sick of it I was like this is yes, and I and literally I went I Paid for a lecture another time. I almost gave up I'd paid for a lecture by Paul Jack and he got on there and he's he showed us like the importance of rotation He's like most people get injured in the frontal and transverse planes Why wouldn't you condition in that range of motion like why would you can just people who don't know Paul check was kind of one of the forefathers of what we now term as functional training wasn't he was very much into this kind of like Yeah, taking a bit of a bigger systems approach to movement Well, he was one of the guys that blew this whole system apart like just showed the fallacies of what we were was what we were doing to people and it was brilliant, you know like it it was brilliant and And he still is brilliant, but but he really did like yeah really paved the way to what we've got now I mean what we've got now is just so exciting like, you know, I don't know I use I use old systems, too So I use osteopathy in the cranial field, which is a very specific type of osteopathy that definition of osteopath is Bunch of people who disagree so some osteopaths really like using cranial techniques and others don't I really do and I use like the Original form of it Which we can go into if you want, but I also like recently started using the ove, you know You guys use the move have you seen that? doubleov the ove.com Made of my own teachers those courses and he showed me a bit of stuff and I'm like wow This is awesome. It's a amazing training and diagnostic tool So it's just like I'm just like whoa, and you know what you guys do the movement stuff. I think that just blows my mind I can't even do a handstand, but it's just like You know what what people are doing and how Collectively and breath work like man like how breathing is now coming in. Yeah, there's William Hoffman You know recently that James Nester book is really blowing the lid like across the world I'm the importance of breathing and I mean that's a thing if we could get if we can get people to breathe well Breathe through the nose lip seal tongue up, you know, we we changed the world We literally changed the world with that and so it's it's just like there's so much possibility My my biggest issue with it is yeah, niching it down enough to go like okay These are my little things I play with But yeah, it's mega exciting and and I play with lots of things like I was exposed to kinesiology and You know dentistry a lot of dentistry, so I'll do things like have people stand on one leg You know put one arm out push on the arm they go weak chuck a tongue in the other side of it I blew this guy away yesterday put the tongue in the other side the cheek and then he went strong And he's like what So that's yeah, it's just like scraping the surface of what what this vessel is capable of, you know, like it's just It's just so it's really exciting Yeah, no I'm just gonna get you to clarify with terms of people who are listening because there's lots of now and I think this is where The space is probably gonna go and it'll be we're getting very specific in our fields I think as we start to find a bit so we kind of like resonate with If someone was gonna go and see a physiotherapist or an osteopath or a chiropractor And just to the kind of in the traditional sense of you're obviously broadening out what it means to be an osteopath now from from where It's probably was 10 years ago in terms of the things that you said you're playing with Just what's the difference between those things and why would people kind of choose between them? Yeah, and there's fields. I mean it's tricky to answer to because there's fields within those fields So like there's hospital-based physiotherapists who do like this Some of them do just stunning work in in acute care, you know, I see you like Voiding people's lungs and I don't know all this sort of amazing. So that would just freak me out I'd be like, you know and and You know injury rehabs, you know neuro rehab all that sort of stuff So I tend to find in a nutshell that physio therapy is a very Definitely comes from the evidence-based model and that's it's that's its heritage and that's its history It tends to be not all this is the thing like how do you define one human being? You know, how do you find one osteopath, but it tends to be more based on okay? Here's the acute injury. We treat those structures and we look at I got a joke all physios look at glutes. Yeah But that's just a joke in any physios listing. That's a joke. It applies to the condition coaches as well It's hard with the same brush. Oh, yeah That's it, that's it I always ask the question why why not why aren't they activating because that that's a that's a pretty to me it's That track but that chiropractic is is different again They they have Philosophies and there's a couple of different philosophies within that but they generally mostly work off the nervous system So they're looking at how the nervous systems in How the nervous system is impeded, you know, and so they have various windows into that and they do You know, I've been exposed a lot of what they call applied kinesiology in Cairo and that that's pretty wild stuff Like using the body muscle responses to read and essentially ask questions of the body And then osteopathies is funny thing that no one really understands That it's actually a growing field. It's the fastest growing manual therapy But what's the where's the name come from like what does oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so so I was gonna say We're a little bit snobby in osteopathy because we reckon it's the first manual therapy So there was a guy over a hundred years ago at still who was a medical doctor in the US and he came up with the name so osteo meaning bone and Pathy meaning pathology. So he he was really looking at bones, but he was he looked at a lot more I mean he over a hundred years ago. He was saying by the fascia live and by the fascia die He was talking about facile and that was when you know, it was not even considered a thing It was considered something that you just throw away when you do a cadaver study, you know, it's not even important But now we know that fascia is like Everything so it's like the probably the key most important, you know substances in the body It's it's incredible connective tissue. So he knew that a hundred years ago You know, he he would go out and just talk to what he called the maker So he just sit down and meditate and channel stuff basically if you really come down to it He was a mystic and then so he founded this school of osteopathy and it took off I think it was sort of round the turn of the 18 to 1900s. I can't tell you the exact dates I'm not a scholar enough. Yeah, historian enough, but he was pretty rad that dude and then and then Sutherland one of his students developed what we call osteopathy in a cranial field And he taught some people and they taught some people and those people taught my teacher and he taught me So it's a really like direct line for me. I really hold that like as a strong value in my practice So that's where osteopathy came from but really the premise of it is that Function and structure Are interrelated So one of the other definitions of an osteopath is a manual therapist You go and see it works on everything except what I've seen what you came for To come in for the long side when I first got introduced to the osteopath I was probably I was working as an athlete prior to london 2012 and we were alacantin as a spanish guy And um I would go in and I came from a very sort of like strengthening conditioning Which is from a the the organization I train with is quite sort of clinical in its approach as well So very much on our muscular function and the musculoskeletal system And then I go in there and this guy is like poking around this guy comes like the one of the athletes He's going hamstrings a bit tight and he's like poking around the forearm And he's like doing some stuff to like the back of the hand and he's like pain pain and the guy's yeah Yeah pain and all of a sudden do something to go pain going no pain I was like, what if you don't even touch his hamstring? How do you fix that? That's just like playing around with his armpit Yeah, that's that's classic. I went out just good. I can't work out. This is the cool thing What's this guy doing? This just must be voodoo, but no it's so cool. It's really cool to see it's amazing What's cool? What's cool about it too is like you can be like one of my good friends is a visceral osteopath So she basically so you saw neck. Yeah, that's your liver like or saw something. Yeah, that's that's that's the you know, the I don't know triangular ligament. You know, it's like what what do you how do you know this stuff? But she she does visceral osteopathy really well You can do cranial you can do you can do musculoskeletal type osteopathy you can do manipulative a lot of people just You know do become really good at cracking of the facets and the joints and stuff So it's it's really broad. You can do strengthening conditioning with osteo I find it's challenging. I've got I'm working with a guy at the moment who's like been through it like Chiro physio osteo and he's like the one thing I've not tried is really fixing this thing through movement Um, and I was sort of like look to him move and he screams like really well Um, but he's getting this kind of like pain around his rib area and he's struggling with rotation and side bending injury history Like the idea, but it's um, what I think is hard for people is how do they find their way to the right person now? Like when you've got sort of these underlying things where you've got well You could might be able to fix it by looking at one different side of thing But you've got so many doing visceral osteopathy. Is that the right person? It's I think that's probably leaning back to question asked before we've got such a broad Array of practitioners kind of become very special in certain areas But it's super difficult to stick it all together because each one of those areas is quite specialist and complex I just um, I don't know where we go from here with those in terms of people actually getting the right support from the right people Yeah, like I'm getting little bit tingles because that dentist that I used to work for he passed away in it now and um But I'll tell you one thing tim and he was the master of that. So I'll tell you how he did it if you want Yeah, what what he had was like on his desk He had a big, you know the business card holders like he had heaps of them like so He had a whole of sydney. He was practicing in sydney. He had the whole of sydney network, right? He knew every practitioner Like he knew a physio that I did some work with to Gavin who was really good with feet So if he had someone with a foot issue that he thought was driving things He'd send him to Gavin if he had someone Or with a bike with he thought had a psychosocial problem He'd have like all these psychotherapists Psychologist council was in his stack of cards, right? The way he got to figure out who we'd send them to was using muscle testing. So he'd ask the body basically But what he did was um also use muscle reflex testing Which I use a lot to this day and that gives you like a really good window into what's what the narrative is You know what's what what story the body's got to tell but you you don't have to go straight to the The the bit that's going to cause the most trauma you sort of work your way into it If that makes sense So these postural reflex tests will give you an insight if it's to a you know the main issue right now Is it ascending or is it descending? You know and if it's descending Is it relate to the neck the shoulder the jaw c1 Or something else and that you can really sort of just chunk it down You know and go okay the main issue right now is this And then he used to use muscle testing like I said, um to sort of determine what the priorities were So he had a structure of um And this this this is used and this is not exclusive to him, but he used to test on this structure of biomechanics or structural biochemical And then emotional or psychophysical and also he brought in vibrational So he brought in a bit of woo in there as well So he used to be able to go okay to the main priority for this body to be well is structural No, he's biochemical. No, he's emotional. Yes. Okay. He's vibrational. Yes. Okay. So then he'd go okay Like that relates to this and the person to fix it is this and then he'd pull out a card and go Okay, team go and see this guy And he said I don't want to see you for another three months until you've worked with jaco And got your issues sorted out. Yeah, so he used to refer yeah movement people everybody And he he everybody that worked so well for his practice because people knew when they found a dental or jaw Or upper cycle issue. He could usually deal with it. It's um, yeah, they sent him back Yeah, and so I think you know a good answer. Sorry is his collaboration man like working together and and not having the ego just going like Tim like I can't do this like can you have a look at this guy? I've been lost having that network I'm almost thinking of him. I like that. It sounds like he's almost like having a project manager that's like I'm gonna I'm gonna Identify where it is. I'm not going to be the solution or it might be the solution But if it's not it's all these other people I think I'm I've got I think it's tricky about a jacket. Can I just make one point before you? I think the tricky thing about that and just reflecting on it It's like it takes a career to get that kind of understanding Like you come in as a strength and conditioning coach or as a physiotherapist or as an osteopath And your basic fundamental training But then you've got to stay in the game long enough and be open-minded enough to actually then start to just go in and branch out of your field and it's that's like Yeah, that's that's an that's a certain level of career endurance and maintaining quesitiveness Or quesitivity. That's a word that um I think few not enough people have like you can become so channeled and boxed in Um, so yeah, I guess what I'm saying with that call is like I love talking to people like you because you're just pushing them to the pioneers and linking it together and just What can we do in our lifetime to contribute a bit more to where we next the next generation can go on and understand health care And and getting people well effectively, which is our job Yeah, I agree and that's what that's why I said I did things backwards So I had to I asked you I could see those links but people would always ask me the question here But what are you? Don't label me. I can't avoid this. Can't can't avoid this anymore. I'm gonna have to go back to school Just start you telling people you're you're a mystic Tim you said then about open-mindedness and I'm just worried that there will be Some people potentially Listen to this podcast. Maybe it's the first time they listen to the podcast or they're just relatively new and they've not Or just in their own minds. It's just not come Or been exposed to like some wider views on like how the body Functions and this and this idea of like all this other stuff is potentially like well, this is this is quite a lot And we'd all probably agree. There's so much. We don't even all this stuff You're talking about there's there's going to be like a he'll hope a whole heap of stuff that like we still don't know um about the body and that for um You sort of you started answering this question because I was going to I was going to say like giving a bit of um Explanation in layman's terms of like How are some of those things happening and what you're doing there was describing? I thought it might be an interesting one um of that That tooth scenario you were talking about that Can you in layman's terms try and convince somebody that doesn't believe like I don't know what the mechanism is for that But I'm on board with going like I I'm on board with the idea that That I'm not closed. I'm like that could be something um But for that person with a blown up shoulder like what is the link between the tooth and his shoulder? And for the record, I recently had a tooth taken out And my body does feel a bit better shoulder uh My shoulder directly wasn't an issue on that side, but my um Yeah, I had a tooth that needed to come out. It should have come out a long time ago I think but anyway, you know what what could be how can someone's tooth Be linked to their shoulder. Is it possible to explain that in layman's terms and try to imagine someone's being a bit skeptical about this? Yeah, um It's a funny question because I'm trying to think through it in like I'm almost like um Got PTSD from practical exam. Oh, sorry. Yeah If it's too hard, I can ask you what you had for breakfast or No, no, no. No, no, it's good. It's a good question. So I just know someone will be set here going B s like do you mean like how is that? Like yeah, oh, that's like well, let's talk about it. So so the motor nervous system Okay, so you've got your sensory in your motor. Yeah, um, so that's you know, controlling movement. Okay um voluntary and involuntary so What is the most complicated thing we do as human beings? Neurologically most mind is human like we do Yeah, um I don't know Yeah, that's the side on the pole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's easy comparatively this thing takes a good You know, it takes a it takes about 18 years to really master and then you can start well be around the brain As in it surely like just thinking and I'm thinking something neural that develops over a matter of time Something it involves thinking it involves thinking close. He's making his work jacket. I'm getting PTSD now. I don't know I wish I could do this with my teachers No, so so there's something we we think and then we use breath and then we use complex arrangements of the tongue and the lips And also Yeah, exactly. So speech is actually Neurologically, that's why it takes so long to learn, right? So like my my oldest kid is 18. She's she's very articulate and of course and um And my youngest is about to turn three and she's just learning, you know, she's really trying but she's she you know She's stringing the words together three years of work, you know listening and babbling and and trying to trying to like Cognitively make sense of her thoughts and then articulate her needs, you know And so that's tough. That's why when if you do a day of talking if you run a workshop, you know You haven't you haven't done any physical exercise, but you just completely knackered, you know It's because you've been on your feet thinking coordinating breath And lip face and tongue Through a nerve in the side of the head, you know, the trigeminal nuclei So so that works in concert with a bunch of other cranial nerves to to to create this and your vocal cords to create This symphony that that we just take for granted. We can sit here and jam on a podcast, but that's actually tough Yeah, and then then you've got chewing and swallowing. Okay, that's life or death stuff And so when you chew you need you need feedback coming coming from the teeth Okay, um and also how the teeth interact with the food Yeah, so how what what feedback is coming to the brain to say actually what you're eating And that actually sends a message to your stomach to tell you what to get ready for what nutrients to get ready for Texture of foods really important and we can go into that how that's starting to be lost, you know Especially in kids kids aren't don't feel textures of foods. They don't chew hard. They get this squishy crap, you know um, that's a whole nother story, but Chewing and swallowing is a life or death Right, so you have a lot of neuro power that monitors that stuff and then you've got Breathing, okay So your body will do whatever it can do to Compensate for your breathing and your chewing and swallowing and even your speech So that takes a lot of brain power and for the motor nervous system It's somewhere around kind of 38 to 40 something, you know around 38 percent That's what tony used to quote anyway. He got off other people but Yeah, so so so this you know the smallest of things can make a bit, you know, have you ever got a hair Popcorn, you know, you have popcorn and like two hours later You've got that little bit that stuck on your teeth drives. You're crazy. It's super super sensitive area Right, so if you've got a great gaping great hole in there, you've got you were talking about effrin effrin inputs before You that For because we're doing lay terms that's things going into the brain and how the brain process and does things coming out of it Yeah, so you've got a big hole in your occlusion Which is super super sensitive and super important to your highest order functions then You've got you've got a really aberrant afferent signal coming back something going back to the brain saying hey There's really something missing here. There's also things like the teeth of these are electric So when they come together, they let off a small charge and that puts a vector through your brain But that's a whole another thing And your occlusion how stable your occlusion is affects the the cervical vertebrae big time and also how you breathe at night and And how you use your pharynx and your airways, which is relate to the breathing piece that I was saying Okay, so your neck will compensate If your neck has to compensate because your mouth's not right because that's a highly highly sensitive system Your neck might you make might flatten and then it will go forward Okay, so if you have a forward head posture because your cervical spine's flattened What's that going to do to your shoulder? Okay, it's going to change your thoracics and that's going to change your shoulder position It's going to change the way you breathe. It's going to change your diaphragm your diaphragm's critical to shoulder position It's critical to rotation blah blah blah and then Then you know, you then you've got a glue Yeah, yeah, exactly So do some glue bridge. So if I do some glue bridges, but my tooth my tooth grow back Yeah, that's it It's adding it's adding some It's like it's basically it it I'm seeing it as a As depth on terms of of stuff going like so someone's saying a forward head posture Isn't isn't good and that can affect the shoulder and like The pecs are tight and you know, whatever, you know talking about those things. It's it's for me. It's going like When it's not saying that that's wrong But it's saying that the root cause Of what's making that thing happen Is not directly in there. That's a consequence of something else something of a bit of a higher order And that will answer questions. I think for people You're not going to have like the immediate solution But if someone's been had an issue with x and they've been treating it by trying to do the right things of Losing off this muscle or strengthening that and it's just not really making any progress That in itself is telling us you aren't treating the root cause or it's a better for a little bit And then it just goes back to normal Like it just shows us that we're not treating the root cause and that we might have to open up our minds to The root cause of it could be something flipping so far out of your comfort zone or so far out of what your brain Can or your mind can currently accept could be possible that you'll probably dismiss it You know because you mentioned your the like Something it could be to do with your liver or like it could be something that's like deep inside that you can't even like You're gonna have to treat it very differently. And I think that um I guess I'm I'm talking I start to talk faster as I get a little bit passionate because I've had a conversation with someone recently where It was it was exactly this they were having so they've they've had some issue and their their whole turn of phrase was like basically nothing I do helps And then it was like And they were talking about the the situation. I was like well Uh from my understanding could maybe this no, no, it's definitely not that I've tried that could be that no I've tried that it's not that could be that try that not that's and then and it was like but so But what are you doing? It's like well, I'm just doing what I've always done, right? Well, you you're definitely not gonna get It's definitely not going to get any better if you do what you've always done but their mind Was very much closed off to like trying to approach it in a different way. And so like I imagine this whether this is a question or not, but um A client when they come to you they've probably already got to that point in their mind of like It's something else whereas for some people to get to work with someone like you they've got to get past that That phase in their mind of going like it actually could be something that I'd have no idea about That's scary for people Yeah, yeah Yeah, I mean, that's such a rich little dialogue. You just rolled out in my mind. We could be here all day. Couldn't we? No, no, I'm gonna book a session with you after this by the way like whatever you try Just like I'm we're gonna we're gonna chat about my two of my boys Ha ha ha Yeah, yeah, we must But there's a couple there's one there's a few there's three things I want to discuss and one's like one's a case if I may He's given me permission to share it to talk about him obviously not without his name But he has given me permission to talk about his case um But one thing he said was um About the body not working Oops, have I gone off or am I? If you come back, yeah, oops Yeah, no, you're good. You're good. My computer was doing something funny but That that that those things that you talked about like the issue Like let's say it's the shoulders rounding in and you were saying stretch the shoulders Well, and you said something really important, which was the body's working Yeah, and and that's that's critical to understand is that If your shoulders are rounded and you're looking at them go on or your head you thought you've got a forward head posture That's very functional. It's meant to be that way Your body's put your put itself into that position for a very specific reason A lot of time with cervical it's because of airway And and dental issues, but but but it's a functional adaptation, you know Um, and it's doing doing it for a very specific reason So if you start going in and poking and prodding and stretching and carrying on Yeah, you You kind of it's like you you're trying to wag the dog with the tail, you know So you have to you do have to go back, but you have to understand that Um, the the what you think is a dysfunction My point is what you think is a dysfunction is not a function Yeah, I've thought about this recently very very recently Like in my mind and I'd see something that's that would be I'd been taught of say see myself something in my Myself that like I've been taught is like oh, that's that's a little bit dysfunctional I'd see it very like negatively and then I'd be looking at my body and how it's functioning negatively Rather than as you say it's like my body's doing an amazing job to like Like carry on doing what it's doing. And yeah, it is it will have Adapted for like that function. It might not be how it was necessarily meant, but it's like rather than thinking about Our bodies negatively like almost giving it a pat on the back for like a great job for like just not Packing up all together and just like dying like um And then I don't know for me. That's that's quite uh been quite a shift in mindset Rather than seeing everything as bad dysfunction bad bad bad bad bad That's it. Yeah And that's what the physios have taught us massively like they the physios are so good at doing their research, right Osteo is we just sort of hold ourselves up in a clinic room and And just kind of read heaps of books and don't talk to people that much But physios get out there measure everything and publish it and they've done heaps of work on pain neuroscience education Which is exactly that because if you say, oh my I can never you know, my tibia is twisted my tibia is twisted That's it. That's what they call a dim a danger in me Q so when you do that when you when you say like any bad knee or me me crook shoulder or whatever it is Um, you actually get a mediated inflammation response in that place So inflammation as you know is going to be the complete opposite to to healing. Yeah, so it's like you've got to look at those dysfunctions as Body's compensation so it can so it can function and and I can live my amazing life It's like but you know, I wouldn't mind addressing that that shoulder. Yeah. Yeah, let's heal it up You know, all of a sudden that creates a sim a safety in me, you know Um, and and that's that's the physio is now rate that first Exercise second manual therapy third. That's how they see the priority of treatment should be so pain neuroscience education Um getting the words changed people understanding the mechanisms of pain and the pain is produced in your brain and not at the knee You know, sometimes that's a paradigm shift for people. Um, so yeah that whole thing of yeah, my body's working It's working like it's my posture might not be on the plumb line, but that's ideal for me right now That's a very powerful place to to to start from Um, and then the other part was paul check go back to paul He developed that totem pole and that's a really cool graphic for anyone who hasn't seen that paul checks totem pole and he he sort of went like looked at it from a survival point of view and went well breathing is the most important So the body will compensate to maintain breathing and airway then jaw then vision then vestibular system Then upper cervicals It goes down visceral and it ends up with what he calls the slave joints, which is the spine and the limbs, you know so pelvis the ilia knees ankles feet Elbows shoulders, you know, so he sort of says any of these things up the top have an issue You're gonna yeah, they might present the compensation will present right down the chain And and that's what as he says that's what most people spend all their money on getting their packs popped and their knees MRI'd and then you know all this stuff whereas really you've got to clear those higher order Compensations first yeah, it's and um, yeah, I guess it's a challenge isn't it because it's um Yeah, it's a go before having a broader set of skills is going to be it's going to be really useful And there is always going to be a role for a physiotherapist because they get results right in terms of their there We are there is an efficient say some musculoskeletal physiotherapist We have done a lot of work in sport They get people back in the pool and they get them training or on an athletics track And whatever there's a role for the strength and conditioning coach I think the way that I kind of see this playing out is that we just need to be much more Diverse in our understanding of screening selection. So how do we actually identify what the problem is because it could be I'm going to go back. It could be a glute weakness, right? It could be like We could just fix that and then actually we're pretty good like because we've seen that and we get results with people I think the one thing I'm just conscious of is people start to listen to conversation And and we're talking at a level where we're kind of quite comfortable with embracing and enjoy the complexity of it It's actually it can become really overwhelming I've been seeing this person and And is that should I even be bothering going to my personal trainer because if it's not even like muscular And it's actually like something to do with my breathing. Then they don't know about that. But I think it's um Yes, I guess not all problems are super complex. Sometimes there is a very simple fix for things Um, and I guess it's where we I I look at back at myself and go Well, how do how are we screening people? How am I screening people to identify what I what is the priority on the strength and conditioning program? For example, like it's is it going to be some breath work before we go and do anything else in the session because I've got to do Something to correct that before I can expect the body to go. Do you know what? It's just like I'll give you a little bit to play with now I think you can have a little bit more strength But you can have a little bit more stability or postural control because a diaphragm is taking care of I'm not in a stress state anymore Um the same with the visual system, but I think the challenge for us as practitioners I'm speaking as a as a practitioner to practitioner now. It's um It's the time to to go through all and and it's like how do we Someone's coming in because they want to get strong and I'm going to get a slide down and do this like woo woo thing it's It's a challenge and I don't know. I don't know what the solution is Because people can't necessarily afford to have lots of different practitioners So I guess what I'm saying is like if we are all a little bit more skilled in a little In a few more areas at least we can then Identify correct to a point and when we run to the end of our expiry or end of our our knowledge We then know the people to refer to and we've had some success in this area You now need to go here because they can take you to the next level which is beyond where I'm capable of having those professional networks, isn't it come back Yeah, yeah, it is but this but the thing is that we're so we get connected with people who are like us, right? Like we we we connect rather than we kind of in our it's not an echo chamber But we're linked because we've got a similar sort of mindset people You should talk to that person because they'll really resonate with what you're saying Um, the challenge I think with it is like how do you find people like that? That's it's not it's not the it's not the norm But I would say out there in in health wellness care at the moment people are doing great stuff But it's still very kind of like I feel it's quite pocketed Um, and it's going to take some time and how do you and how do you find it within yourself? Tim I reckon too, you know like There's a place for everyone in healthcare. I reckon like You know, I have a gym out there for a reason but like I go so far I do pretty basic stuff and then I've got a really close friend that's just moved the area and he's really good with The functional movement stuff way better than me. So it's like great. Get off my table. Get out there, you know get out there with him Firstly, don't don't have an ego and attachment to what you're doing Yeah, secondly, like you said keep your eyes open and be willing to go like, whoa I don't understand that I'd like to and then and then and also yeah, I reckon find that practitioner within, you know It's just like so often we get we get stuck in a in a mode of working Like I do myself like I find myself writing notes and I'm like Why am I writing this? I've written this like five times now. Why am I doing the same treatments and you've got a I feel like Self-reflection in that way is really really key to it, you know So that you you're constantly looking at what you're doing and going am I being the best version of this Practition that I'm doing that I can be and how can I how can I serve people better and is there an initial interest that that's going to do that that's going to That's going to Enable me to contribute more and more I think that's the So I thought For me like we obviously do quite a lot of work in sport with like our interdisciplinary teams And and that's like for me probably going to be is a gold standard because you're never all going to be experts in all areas But how does the the guy or girl on the street come in and access an interdisciplinary team where people are going to look at the case Sit around a table and go What are our options? And this is the best course of action and and that's possible like we could do that It's just going to cost a lot of money like it's not you can't you get those brains together for Everyone's basically like often setting time and expertise. It's But it's a nice problem to think about how could that be done for people in a way Yeah, there's a crew of people down the road that do that called the health lodge So they have integrative doctors naturopaths osteos physios And they literally do that sit around a table and and go, okay We've got jackos. Where is it tooth? Yes, please are none. Are we gonna what are we gonna do? You know And and I think that is like it's a beautiful way to practice Is it feasible though? That's really, you know, is it feasible for the everyday person? No, and that's why we need that non-ego. So, you know, I had a guy here the other yesterday And I was just like, wow, I've never seen a rib cage like this and my mentor happened to be out there I said, George, when you come and look at this rib, like Yeah, it's like to be up to and and that's a that's a key principle back to osteopathy of especially osteopathy and cranial field And and this is I think this is a bit of a key answer too And it's a key answer for people that are looking for a practitioner to guide them Is that Like we really respect the body's ability to heal itself. Yeah, so Jaco is missing a tooth, but he can still do all this his flag thing and All his movement work, you know, like the body can work around that Maybe something will happen. Maybe something won't, you know But the body has this innate intelligence and it's innate ability to heal itself So it's not me fixing the person. Yeah, you know, I hate that word when people say, oh, yeah, fix their knee. No, you didn't Their knee fix their knee, right And what that requires is humility You need to be able to sit with the body with someone else like the body is magnificent You know, like any person that comes to see you is a is a treasure to you as a practitioner You know, it's such a blessing to sit with someone at the table and and put your hands on them. It's a privilege, you know And it's and it's Incredibly humbling to be able to feel changes in their system and that they try their system trusts you to initiate that change But that's all we're doing particularly in crane also with you. We're initiating their own healing mechanism And I and that and that requires A deep humility and a deep gratitude and I think if you're looking for a practice, you know, that's one quality That you might want to be sussing out because they're the ones who will who will go you car I don't know. I don't know but but tim is really good with shoulders I think you should I'm gonna I'm gonna give you his card. I want you to go see him He'll give me some input back because I'm a bit stuck with this, you know, people will just go Whoa, you're actually trying to help and you play they'll they'll be your biggest fan Yeah, they'll be your biggest fan forever. You'll never be short of patience like scarcity I'm glad you mentioned that about in terms of like the body healing itself and I think that that trust When we are as a client or if you're searching these things out to Rather than because it's quite common to go Particularly like when you're if you're when you're a kid and you're poorly Your parents take you to the doctor because the doctor will make you well So we're like But we're joining subconsciously not I'm not in a back But we're starting to do that things then as an adult when you're injured I'm gonna go find the physio or the chiro or the osteo I'm gonna find someone to fix me and Trying to go trying to understand that No one knows your body better than you but you got to start listening to it Like you can't you don't know how my body feels it's impossible for you to know how it feels You might know more about like how to how to help facilitate that but I know how my body feels And it will heal itself. I have to trust the I have to trust my body Rather than trying to rather than trying to give that trust over to someone else We are running out of time there Cole and you have got your didgeridoo with you And you've mentioned breath work a few times And I imagined how to there's got to be something to do with the didgeridoo and the breathing side of thing Can you give us a little demonstration and just a a whistle stop tour of like the importance of of that? Yeah Let's do it. That's part two. Yeah, the didgeridoo. Give us a give us a blow. Yeah, okay, let's do it Yeah, if people on a visual it's on we're on youtube Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it sounds like you're farting Very good, I like that ridiculous Yeah, that's cool. That's glad Yeah, that's That's a lot of exhaling right Like if someone's very poor at breathing presumably they're gonna find it Nine impossible to be able to do anything like that if they're very bad at breathing The poor co2 jobs. They can't extend exhale as well Yeah, and that's that's one of the benefits. So there's a lot of benefits to it. That's one of them extended exhale Then you know, you're taking a very I don't know if you heard my breath. Yeah a very quick inhale You know, so you inhale your exhales long your inhales very quick So you actually end up essentially and you create a you keep a store of air in your lungs Like you kind of keep them a bit inflated. So you actually end up kind of storing a bit serratory but also the um, what's what's been shown and hypothesized with the Yeah, you know with the drone is that they they there was a study in the BMJ about did we do playing in sleep apnea And it's a it's a efficacy and treating sleep apnea And one of the things that was hypothesized is that that low drone tone Actually tones the the pharynx the muscles of the pharynx your wall Which helps to keep them open when you're asleep. So that's pretty amazing So you've got you've got tone you've got breath and then you as you heard you've got rhythm as well And it can be you know One of the beauties of breath work and I always come back to this is you know Are you being breathed or are you breathing? You know and if if life's breathing you when you're breathing life, you've got this beautiful symbiotic relationship with life and breaths your access point to that Yeah So one of the things you can do once you learn to do that circular breathing It's actually pretty easy to learn but you can you can go into a like a trance type state If you just can continually repeat the same rhythm So whatever that is like just down down down down down down down, you know and just keep going and going and going For about after about 10 minutes of that you can go into a bit of a trance state Where the sort of brainstem just takes over the breathing and it becomes automatic and this You know, you basically end up expressing whatever's on the inside You know And so as you might we say holotrophics or something like that. So it's it's it's it's a very powerful thing actually And sometimes can be intimidating to people but actually it's it's a beautiful thing because it's it's some of the simplest Digery duplying is just drone breath Drone breath, but if you get down to some more complex stuff And how the native people of this country use it to convey Messages in within the dancing and stuff like that. It's it's not not And how it works with their actual spiritual expression Man, it's like there's a lifetime of study in it. You know, this really is like I'm just a beginner and I've been going for 10 years Well, we've covered some grounds today Cole. I've loved it. Um, yeah It wasn't entirely sort of when we when we Contact came through to have having on the podcast I was sort of it. I wasn't quite sure where the conversation was going to go But that for me is often one of the best ones because it wasn't sort of super niche into one thing Where I knew we had to talk about this thing and it's been um, yeah, it's been great Just a chat as practitioners and I hope that's been useful to people just to sort of Maybe just listen in on a conversation between two people having one or three people having quite an honest Discussion around like just where are we at and what do we know and how do we find out more? And who are the sorts of people you should be surrounding yourself with if you need help in a certain area and Don't be afraid to ask questions Which feel like it might be a little bit out there because It could be a little bit out there based on what our current understanding of of healthcare and the human body is So thank you so much for that. It's been great Yeah, yeah keep pushing It's been uh, it's been enlightening and you'll be hearing from me again and if people have got any questions Um, uh, or you know want to connect to connect with you. What's what's the best place of people to to find you? Or to get more information Just come to the come to the website because I don't I'm a bit of a freak. I don't know. It's gone off the off the radar. Yeah So what's the what's the name of the website? We'll just just spell it out for people the website and we'll Heart palpitations saying yeah, my name. So call clayton c o le c l a y t o n dot com dot au We'll put the we'll put a link in the show notes. Yep. Yeah You can have a chat to see if you can maybe better looking by doing some creating osteopathy. I'm interested in that I think there's a part two I think there's a part two we started doing like oh the facial face exercises. I want to get a The face exercise thing put in your in your in your palette at night widening all that sort of jazz We we want we need to talk about that separate. That's gonna be all that talk about that on a part two I mean I can show you photos of some stuff I feel like away of bit of of changes in people Yeah, I've I've got a photo of I've got an interesting I've got an interesting photo of Tim actually from From a while back. I could show you as well It's not my face on that Right colt mate. Thank you so much for uh for giving us your time of your wisdom We'll let you get off to bed now. It must be pretty uh pretty late there in australia So um, yeah, we look forward to chatting again and hopefully we can uh, there's definitely around to for sure All right, right. Cheers man. Thanks a lot Thanks a lot guys really appreciate in your work and also your time. Cheers man. Take care. G'day Do you know what there was the biggest takeaways from from me or for me from that podcast jack? Was the realization and this is like it never hit home before and it's one of those things we go Probably should have recognized that before You know when colt said think about when you get something like stuck between your tooth Like the amount of sensory information that's in your jaw Like, you know if you bite into an apple or like it were still popcorn or Bill tongue for those who understand the joys of eating drive meat If that gets stuck in your tooth particularly the front ones from me You can't think about anything else like you're gonna dig that thing with your tongue until you basically Like wear the end of your tongue down trying to get it out or you gotta go and get some dental floss Um, I'd never really thought about that before but that is so annoying And it just shows how much information the brain is getting from something which is going wrong in your mouth You can't leave it alone. Can you? No, no, um, there's Uh, two things from me, but it's sort of like one thing and it's about I am just like that's just wet my appetite and I want more. So I am like I'm I'm bang game for a Um a part two where we look at like some of the facial movements and like Working on our tongue and all that sort of jazz So much so that I ain't even gonna wait for us to actually do the part two I am booking a session Over zoom with him and I'm gonna like test out how terrible my uh, my tongue strength is and Try to sort out my uh, my missing tooth Which I've had a tooth removed and I need to speak to an expert like him So I'm gonna I didn't want to take up the podcast asking just put two two personal questions about my my missing tooth So I'm genuinely going to do that and looking forward to it. I will report back on later podcast I told you what to do about that tooth as well, didn't I? Get a gold one. Oh get get a gold one. No, you can't mate. You can't put metal in your teeth Yeah in your mouth metal in your mouth now. I just want you to have a gold tooth I want to get one that which you know just one way it's like you you can pop it in and pop it out And then I could just get a few different colors that that could work as long as it's sort of like organic vegan ethically produced Like something like that. Yeah, there's not gonna get something like that that for me would be I don't know if that's possible What is it? I look into this bit. I'll get like bamboo or something. Yeah, it's organic What it's made of is less important than the color Right, so I hope you enjoyed that podcast. Um, we might well get called back on for a part two Um, I actually even I think I've reflected on this was like I was so interested just picking Cole's brain about the general complexity of physiology That I probably steered it away from where jacko would also like the conversations have gone Which is as he says it was a bit more the detail around facial stuff and breathing and Maybe we get when mccole might enjoy in the illustrious crew of people who have been invited on for a part two So the do play until then let us know. Yeah, yeah, just yeah, give us. Yeah, let us know. Um message Email whatever find a way send a send a message in a bottle Get out get get that out to us if you are wanting to get us cold back on we can make some funny faces together I don't live near the sea. How am I going to get that Messaging a bottle. Maybe I'll move to the sea so that people can say canals That then or pigeons carry a pigeon. Yeah Um, right, let's not get into that because it's probably not at all Um, until next time keep enjoying your physics enjoying and exploring your physical potential with movement strength and play Class dismiss