 Hello and welcome to BIPTV and with me as always is Bob Cook for TA Made Simple. And today Bob is going to touch on the subject which a lot of people ask about and that is what are the similarities and difference so it's a compare and contrast to some extent between the work of Sigmund Freud and the ego and the super ego and the work of Eric Byrne which is parent, adult and child. So where do we start Bob? Let's start with Eric Byrne's obsession with Sigmund Freud. So Eric Byrne was a psychiatrist. He died in 1970 and he really was the creative transaction analysis in 1960. So 10 years before he died. But before that he studied Freudian ideas for at least 20 years. And his two major analysts were Freudian analysts, Sokarekson and Paul Fadern. And right up to about 1947, early 1950s, his whole thinking was around Freud. And then in later about 10 years later he started to develop his ideas around parent, adult child and transactional analysis, which would be basically very different from Freud's ideas. And I think he rebelled in those 10 years between 1945 and 1957 against the idea of psychoanalysis and developed transaction analysis as in his ideas of getting cured quicker by strengthening the adult ego state. Yeah, so that's the good starting point is it should traditionally, and we're talking about historically here, you know, psychoanalysis would have been a long term kind of engagement, wouldn't it, where you would have, I don't know, years maybe. 10 at least. 10 years, wow. Yeah, so there's a big difference between 10 years seeing the therapist and maybe a very short duration. I know you've taught many times, Bob, about Byrne really being the original CBT therapist, because he used the model a lot. He pointed to the model and I think he said, in one book, that unless you went to the board two or three times, you really weren't being a TA therapist in those days. Correct. And he very much went against the ideas of a long term psychoanalysis. And he wanted to cure people in two or three sessions. He said famously in one of his books. But as TA developed into the New Yorkshire population, he might be with a TA therapist six months, maybe two or nine months. But it's very much about strength in that ego state. No one you're parent, no one you're in child. Well, Freudian ideas are very different, as I said, much longer. But one of the really big differences is this. I don't really want to clear this up because people often come on my courses, oh, yeah, and Freud's ideas are very similar. PAC and the model of Freud, which is ego, it and superego and starts to trot that out. Let's just put this state on camera. That is, in 1988, when Freud started to talk about his model of it, yeah, which is the rampant drives superego model authority and ego being in the here and now, he was talking about a model of the unconscious. Yes. Eric Burns, 70 years later, and his ideas of parent, adult, child was a model of the personality. Let's do different things. So, so for example, Eric Burn would say, okay, we could observe somebody acting from when they're an apparent, and we could see the behaviors that were externally expressed, which would denote that they're in their paradega state, which might be their mother. Yes. And we can look at the child's behavior state behaviors, which would be directly related to the child behaviors of yesterday, say, five, 15, you know, seven. And we could see those behaviors linked to the internal phenomena. Yes. Whereas Freud was a model of the unconscious, not linked to behaviors. No. No, no. So when we talk about linked to the unconscious, he was saying that this tripartite system was, was that, is it sometimes referred to as the dynamic unconscious? Would that be? Yeah. Much, it's not linked to behaviors. So if you, if, you know, we had somebody just, I don't know, talking for 15 minutes, you couldn't, according to his model, Freud wouldn't be about looking at those behaviors, which would correspondingly link to whichever ego state. It would be much more about unconscious derives. Freud never talked about behaviors that would correspond to the rampant drives of the it, for example. He never talked about behaviors that will get linked to the moral authority of the superego. He would talk about the superego in terms of top authority, you know, or beliefs around sure there was a must, but not link it to a parental interject. No, there's more of a societal aspect to it as well, isn't there? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. The more Freud's idea was more about what, what, what societal message is. Yes. Very, very different. Not linked to behaviors. Yes. Byrne came along and divided model of personality linked to the behaviors. So you could observe the behaviors as somebody in therapy and you could see the corresponding interject. Yeah. So the far that the behaviors of the parental interject would link to the father. And you could look at the behaviors of the child corresponding to that age that the person was in. So the behaviors of somebody, I don't know, smiling in a passive way. You could link it back to the three years, three year old perhaps, who was smiling and distressed in the same passive way. Well, that's not what Freud talked about at all. His was a model of the unconscious. So when Freud was interpreting, because that's what, that's what, you know, what he would, what would he do? He would, he would, he would listen to what someone says and then he would interpret which ego state was present. Is that how it would? You know, let's get it right. Freud, and he taught this in his books. And that is Freud will say, you know, to his analysts, you do not interpret in 150 minutes session more than three times. So the interpretation has to be linked to no more than three times, maybe tell me twice. So it would carry that extra weight. And it was an interpretation of free association. So in other words, somebody would be lying on account, talking about randomly about their dreams or whatever it was, and maybe, you know, might be led that way at the beginning, their dreams, analysis of the dreams, because that's what psych analysis started from. And then you would have the odd, no more than three interpretations of the, you know, in terms of the transference, the father behind the, they would make this interpretation very powerfully in a quite a vague way, and quite a symbolic way of what the person is talking about. So very much would be around, in transference terms, an authoritative interpretation, usually the symbolic level of the person who's, you know, free associating randomly on the couch. Yes. And it's fair to say that in those days, and I think to be fair to, to modern cycle, psycho, psychoanalysts, they probably don't work so much in this way now and they don't have people on couches and you don't talk in German accent somewhere about it and say, tell me about your mother. No, not many, but, but I think that what you get into is, is that they would interpret using symbols because, because Freud was very big on symbols and kind of Greek, Greek, kind of, yeah, yeah. And also his idea of sexualized drives, for example. Yes. The interpretations may be around the sexualized repression. Yes. Because he, he, he thought a lot of neurosis came from repressed sexual drives. Yes. So you wouldn't have, the emphasis would not be on, as Byrne was 50 or 60 years later, about strengthening the hearing out of an adult ego state that you could point to, point to in terms of adult behaviors in the hearing now. It would be much more about interpretation, often in a symbolic or way. And of the first year, two year, three years of a person's life and really analysis of their unconscious. Yes. Not, not strengthening their behavior, adults in the hearing now. Well, I think that's really useful because I think, I think it is a misnomer. It's one that I laboured under for a long time, Bob, that they were the same, but actually, as you quite eloquently put, they're very different. And I think that's going to be so, so useful for any students who are being asked to do a comparative contrast or anybody in general who wants to see the differences. So as always, Bob Cook, thank you very much. Thank you very much. And I think that's the 33rd TA simple video we made, the difference between Freud and Burns, compare and contrast. So it's an interesting one. It is. And why don't you check the playlist out and you can see all the others. We go from the structural model of parent, adult and child, right through the complete history of TA in great depth. So if you're interested in TA, you're a TA student, you're getting taught from Bob Cook, who's one of the top trainers probably in the world. There are big you up, Bob, in the world. Very much, yeah. All right. All right, lovely. And thank you to the audience. Bye-bye.