 Welcome to the red man group posted today on 21 live 21 studios. I'm Anthony Johnson your host for today's show This is actually gonna be part two of our crazy bitches series also known as understanding jaynor's personalities and women This will be a little bit different show than the last episode Which you can see in the card should be up here in the YouTube video As well as the description underneath the video to watch the first episode, which is one of the highest rated shows have done yet Today joining me on the show I have from left to right carl from black label logic Ryan stone from Marybred pill also speaker for the 21 convention this year Richard granan today's special guest in the show from Spartan life coach and There's also speaker of this year's convention After that we have role to mossy from the rational male a lot of my speaker of the convention and speaking in this year and Dr. Sean T. Smith author of the tackle guy to women clinical psychologist out of Colorado and speaker at this year's 21 convention Beautiful gentleman. Thanks for joining me Hey, thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks a lot. Oh, it's fun So let's oh before we get in the round table real quick for the guys watching everybody hit the like button on the show Whether you're watching it on Twitter or on YouTube. It helps the show a lot Leave a comment chapter in the show and for watching it later drop a comment Underneath the video helps the show and then subscribe to this channel if you have not yet on 21 Studios or YouTube comm slash 21 Also in the video description subscribe to the red man group new YouTube channel It's a dedicated channel for the show that we need to build up to be able to live stream from it The go subscribe helps the show And right before we get in the round table. We still have tickets to the 21 convention 2018 overland of Florida this October We have 27 tickets left out of 175 So we're almost sold out and you can get them in the description of this video or at the 21 convention dot org That's that or g or through the speakers they've links in their site in most cases That's all I have for announcements guys What's going on your lives? What's new? Carl go well the first one most people probably noticed I haven't written anything for the past a couple of weeks and That's not me being lazy That's because I got distracted doing primary research because I've been using a lot of secondary data from census Gyros etc So I've been doing some Tinder experiments just to kind of try and dial in my profile because it started with I was seeing Anthony Was doing well so here. Hey, there's a lot of pussy being left on the table here that I'm not trying to get a part of So I set up a Tinder account and I got started and not coming to okay Which profile pictures will work best? How do you dial in your profile for max alpha max beta etc? So I did so a lot of photos and I set up a profile that I think it will be quite beta Bucks ish with you know real alma mater Corporate dress codes yacht clothes etc Smiling and I set up that profile and I passported to a different city And I let that run for 48 hours while you have the new city boosts and I got a certain number of likes mostly women ages 28 to 35 Most of them professional women lawyers analysts that type of the woman and I just saw okay This is obviously a very data profile. So I did another photo session and I took a lot more Let's say less smiling and I ran them through and the pictures that scored highest on arrogance aggression Impulsivity and a couple other things I ran with and just put them up on the profile Passported again, and that's running about 12 hours in now and the demographics which now It's mostly 70% women ages 20 to 26 And I've also been doing a limited sample with Anthony's amazing opener to see the reaction And when I ran I sent that opener to about five other professional women and my favorite That was mostly a shit test galore I haven't been shit tested that hard since I tried a top hat and the moon boots during my mystery method base and I tried that out and and my favorite was the woman who was sent back a very descriptive Message on what she wanted to do with me in a huge black strap on Yeah, that was my favorite one but now with the new profile only sent it out to a couple of women so far But it has a hundred percent response rates Like they always respond to it and this is it's a limited sample size It's only about 10 15 women are sensitive, but they all respond to it Oh, you get a chance to try and convert it at least but I've been having too way too much fun to even start writing stuff down I'm just telling update that now. So I'm going to try some Other differences just to see okay. What happens versus the same picture smiling non-smiling, etc And I'm gonna write it all up to a blog poster two or three Wow Ryan your next in line. What do you got going on bud? Yeah, honestly, it's mostly just been the the blog posting in the field research not a little more freeform than than Carl there, but At this point, it's just getting the grind down getting that speech polished up for you in a couple months there Getting the posts polished up getting books polished up. Basically all that work is nothing to show for it Are you ready? I wish I had something better Ryan. Are you writing a book right now? Of course. Why not? Oh everybody? I didn't realize it's hard man. You're four of them in I don't know how like three and a half Right now. Oh, it's like you get like a Like a blue screen of death for my brain when I'm reading it. I'm like, what in the hell none of this flows It's just whatever comes in. It's ridiculous Hit me up after the show. I'll give you some hints. Oh, thank God. I'll take you up on that Richard you're next what's new in a life over in Thailand store it you're muted Yeah, still over in Thailand just a term a boat trip today I know you just got into the hotel because I thought I was doing this tomorrow So sorry about that looking a bit sunburnt and flustered At the moment, I'm also trying to write a book and also finding it torture And apart from that just in the work I do normally which is helping people recover from complex post-traumatic stress disorder Get in touch with their emotional states and they're trying to help them to heal from the effects of narcissistic abuse That's my main focus right now That s roll up. Oh my next I thought Sean was next. That's okay Yeah, well speaking of books still working on book for I've got a lot of material right now It's like I'm getting to the stage in the book where I have to decide what to leave out as opposed to what to What to include into it and usually that's a good sign that I'm like fully, you know Invested in the book now So I've been doing that a lot of real-life stuff is sort of taking precedent though we Where I live is right in the center of all of these fires here in Northard, California, so we have Well, I think the Mendocino fire is the single worst fire in California history right now And I don't need I don't live in California I live in Nevada But all of that smoke and all of that ash is finding its way into Gardnerville Which is where I live and Gardnerville was the single worst air quality I mean it was dangerous hazardous levels of carbon monoxide in this area, which is usually very clear very nice I mean the reason I moved here is because it was close to the mountains. I was close to Tahoe I was close to the airport so I couldn't work It was a great idea back in November and now I'm like wondering why the fuck I moved here But why don't you go back to Orlando dude? Yeah, well, you know I tell you well, you already know that I've got a house there too I got a house here and I got a house in Orlando and I was really considering picking up and leaving until it cleared up But you know, I've got dogs and you know my wife's working and stuff. So I'm like, yeah All I'm doing really is just hold up in my studio writing as it is anyways Topics topic du jour this week according to To rich Rich cooper Is the The why you shouldn't date single mothers and yeah, that was the topic of all the show yesterday when I went on with Pat Campbell Which is my weekly thing with him And it was funny because that was only supposed to be like maybe the first 15 20 minutes of our of our talk yesterday And it ended up just pretty much being the whole show Simply Okay, well ask him what's going on here in a minute But uh people in chat are asking what's going on with rich rich cooper. Uh, he'll be he'll be back next week. He's on for the 18th um, we're sort of Divvying up who's going to get what show we're actually starting to take the red man group to be a more professional You know real business here pretty soon. So It's it's working. You you already know about this, of course, anthony But a lot of our viewers probably don't is that we're we're really starting to come into our own here And the red man group is starting to turn into something that I had never thought it would but uh, I'm happy It's a it's a good problem to have I guess so Yeah, it's very exciting and uh, we'll have some announcements at the uh, well Lots of announcements for what we're going to do at the 21 convention later on Yeah, um, and then uh, but the topic is yours as far as uh, you know, should you marry single mothers or should you get Involved in single mothers. I really need we need to dedicate uh, a red man group for that Oh, yeah, uh, and then also I got into it with um, with uh, mr Mr. Donovan sharp Earlier this week and I'll let him tell you what we were talking about Let's actually let's up to shawna before we get to a little bit Sean has a gun Yeah, things are going well I was um, you know, I was getting a good start on youtube starting to find my legs on that platform I had to step away for a few weeks to take care of some stuff, but working on the next vision or the next um The next video And in case you guys question how devoted I am to my audience I'm reading a gender studies textbook called women's voices feminist visions Oh man, I gotta watch this It's just a small part of the next video But I wanted to you know, I like to establish definitions and foundations when I'm talking about something I have to hold this thing with tongs like it's radioactive waste because it just burns my skin when I read it But um as much that's that's sort of where I'm at right now cool Thanks for happening on donovan, uh surprise seon. I didn't know you were able to make it Yeah, I'm actually just making a cameo man. Um, because I knew rollo was going to talk a little bit about I'm actually we're actually getting ready to check out of this Uh, uh hotel. We're in downtown atland. I'm actually looking at the old atland of folton county stadium. I'm across from where Muhammad Ali Uh famously lit the torch in the 96 olympic. So um, yeah down here visiting my family. I figured I'd jump in and chime in But yeah, uh, well rollo and I talked about is this two-part documentary On um on black men who are leaving the united states to go to brazil and black women ain't here for it They're mad about it It was like when when you watch this stuff It is and I don't think this is just a black thing. I think that this particular documentary is indicative Of the prevailing attitude with all men in america It's just that black women happen to be they they it's almost like they elevate their fuckery Uh, they cheat the most they cheat with the most people Um and a lot of guys say well white girls have more options. Yeah, that may be true But black women can't keep their legs close for anybody Because you know just because of their lack of options, but it was it was a great discussion man We had a lot of good phone calls on it But um, just wanted just wanted to jump in say hi to you guys and uh, let you guys know, of course, I'll be uh, Be back next week and uh, we'll get this thing going business as usual man thought I'd drop it and say what's up Yeah, thanks for having on man. Yeah, we we we stirred the shit pot this week for sure Yes, sir. It's way me and rich and me and me and donovan. We stirred the shit pot I'm so surprised Yeah, I see it donovan all right donovan So for today's show the topic is uh, you know part two of the dangerous woman series I don't know if it'll be a part three ever or soon who knows But I figured this episode would be pretty good to dive into other topics or other Components of the that you know topic set that we didn't get into last time So like in last show the last time we did this show or this uh the series We focused on symptoms and what it's like to be in that relationship that experience But in this one, I wanted to focus more much more on what happens before the fact Like how those relationships form these toxic relationships And then what happens after the fact how they end why they end how to move past them at heal And I think each panelist today. Everybody in the panel has their own not only experience with that But also uh advice and uh perspective on it. Ryan I think is a really good example as a moderator at married red pill Not every guy marries a bpd obviously but many enough men do to where they end up there Um, and then from everybody else has their own experience and stuff like that So let's start first. I think on I think we should start first on how these relationships form in the first place And maybe an easy segue would be the blue pill The blue pill uh as a setup to getting into these kind of relationships With these women kind of like, you know digging their claws into those belief sets Uh, so for the viewers aren't familiar with that role. Do you want to kind of hit on that? Oh, yeah, sure. Um, well, I mean I kind of have to relate it to my own experience because when I was with my own bpd woman Uh, I was probably as blue pill as you could as you could get um, I had gone from from being a really kind of blue pill kid in um in in high school and then in my you know Semi pro rock star days when I was uh in the hollywood, you know metal scene back in the late 80s and early 90s Uh, I was I would say I was somewhere around a lesser alpha at that point But I was still very very blue pill. I still had those Uh, those ideals, uh, I still you know for for all the women that I was having sex with at that time I still wanted to have that you know that comfort of the the long-term relationship But it had to be with you know, it had to be with a really hot chick because that's what I was getting That was always getting used to at that point and the problem I think what was is that I had got to the point where I could get pretty much any chick and as a result of that I wasn't protecting myself I wasn't like I didn't of course I didn't know to protect myself because I didn't even know what what uh, you know borderline personality disorder was at that time but So here I am. I I kind of have the world by the balls when I'm 22 years old Uh, 23 comes around And you know, I'm now almost 50 notches in And along comes a bpd woman who is like everything and more She's like the ideal of what I have in my head. She's this genetic celebrity. She has a perfect body She's this cute little blonde girl. You know this You know this perfect person And played this perfect role for me Um, and she was harder to get too. I'll give you that but in the beginning she was harder to get You know, I was used to being able to get with you know, club girls and and be able to turn that around Into sex within the same night. If not the same night that's certainly within a week uh, and so It became a challenge for me and then that challenge is what drew me into that because once I had sort of got Past that challenge. It was like the crazy porn star sex It was all of this It was almost too easy, but I didn't really realize that it was too easy And just to sort of kick things off here. I have a post and it's also a chapter in a book It's called uh dream girls and children with dynamite and I actually Quoted ross ross jeffrey's in that because he was the one that can't who coined that term is that When you give guys this red pill Capacity, you know, they sort of give them the keys to the castle To go and get what they want. Well, what's the first thing that they're going to do? They they use that because they want to get a girlfriend and all the guys that I end up um, you know counseling to to this day Uh, or you know, most of the guys who are in the pickup are seen they just want to learn just enough So that they can get their dream girl and that dream girl is often That that dream girl is often an ideal that borderline personality disordered women Will play to so not only can you go get those chicks, but you open yourself up to I think over investing in them and so they end up becoming a one-itis and you don't learn those things You don't if you don't if you don't internalize the red pill if you don't internalize that awareness you open yourself up to a lot of uh potential pain and a lot of potential disaster So when you get to the point like where let's just say you're a blue pill guy And you're you're used to isolation and you're used to rejection and you're used to uh, you know approach anxiety and all this stuff and then suddenly you get all of these skills And you just learn them by rote memorization It doesn't really take you're not really becoming the red pill You're just sort of playing the act of the red pill And then you move from from that rejection and that kind of loneliness To all of a sudden getting girls or getting girls that are of a much better You know caliber than the ones that you were used to before and so now you go from just sort of getting like fives and six Is to maybe getting sevens and eights Maybe an occasional nine and you're learning how to do this Well the problem is is that when you do that you're if you're not red pill aware enough you're going to end up You know getting into a situation with a woman where she is going to see that you aren't what you're advertising yourself to be So you're advertising yourself as being this this in control a guy who just gets it You're in you're advertising this idea that you are red pill aware And that's that's who you are and what you are and then when you get into a long-term relationship with those women Then they realize that they've been tricked right that they're hypergamy. They're they're hyperganist filters Didn't catch you before she invested in you and there is that that I could probably write an entire I think I I probably have written a an entire essay about how women's Hypergamist filters is like an existential doubt. It's an existential fear for them. It's like they don't want to be tricked into Uh into investing in a guy who is not who he says he is I mean to the point where they're really they're ready to write legislation that will make a man legally accountable for Representing representing himself as who he actually is in a dating situation or already seen stuff like that But that's how important that shit is And so when these guys get into these relationships and they're still blue pill they open themselves up even Even more so I think for a woman who is manipulative a woman who plays these games a woman who has these disorders and this is what This is why I I add you know advocate against You know sticking with these women because a lot of guys will I think in the last show We were talking about how they were like well, can you manage them? Can you just stick with them and enjoy all this great sex? And can you can you just manage them from a red pill perspective? And I routinely I've routinely gotten comments of people that said I should stay I should have stayed with medusa Turned her into a porn star and all this stuff, right Sometimes you think they're kidding but sometimes they're not well dead serious It's like there are there guys who could probably do that. I'm sure there are but it ain't you Okay, I don't want I don't want to do it Yeah, do you want to put that kind of investment in there? So I think that when you are a blue pill guy or especially if you're a red pill And you're just becoming aware of this but you're still clinging or you're maybe your more purple pill And you're still clean to those blue pill ideals And then you still have that red pill awareness enough to sort of get yourself into trouble With with women exactly like this because when you are when you go from being blue pill to being red pill And you get cocky and you're using amused mastery and you're using all this stuff that goes along with the red with red pill awareness You are actually Encouraging that you know that kind of woman to come into your life because she thinks you have your shit together She sees you as an easy mark, but you're also playing a game that she wants to play She wants that guy who's going to be who's going to be dominant And who's going to be you know put her in her place and who's going to take care of her And she's going to fuck like a porn star But then when you get into those long-term relationships That's when you're in trouble because she figures out who you are and that hypergamous filter Knows that it's been tricked and that creates even more rage and more jealousy And all of the worst aspects of a of a bpd come out because you misrepresent it yourself So that's why I say it's way more dangerous for for blue pill guys to get involved I also feel too that uh, you know hypergamy is hypergamy is a hypergamy You know because a woman has a personality disorder doesn't mean she's not a pergamous I mean in my in my understanding of it at least the way I understand on a personal level is like Women who have these disorders or anything approaching that their pergamy can never be satisfied Like a wild animal like we talked about last time There's never there's never enough alpha So no matter how out you are it's like the bar always gets raised the shit tests never stop Carl's talked a lot about this on his blog actually very well That the the shit tests are literally endless. They never ever stop Yeah, and these are the guys who get into this situation. I think everybody I think once in a while will say well How did this rock star? Why did he hang himself? You know or what about this guy over here this movie star or why did why would anthony bourdain? You know hang himself, right? Well, he got in first of all He was suicidal second of all the guy was very blue pill third of all He had oneitis for this one woman who was in my and that now i'm willing to admit Yeah, that asia argentin was certainly bpb and you get this perfect storm of this blue pill guy Who has all these really idealistic? You know hopes and dreams for himself You know and the dude's like 61 so he's trying to make it happen for himself after god knows How many other failed relationships and he gets into a situation like asia argentin And yeah, that's a recipe for killing yourself and I that's what I said in In my first post about borderline personality disorder. You will kill yourself long before she'll kill herself. Oh, yeah Yep, uh, so from there, I think we can uh move in a little bit different direction Unless someone was to hop in uh follow up with rollo here Well, I just wanted to comment on something rollo said there and I think one of the things with the Hypergamous filter I was reading a book by some chick that I don't remember that was dealing with How women get into relationships and one of the things she said Every woman has a detective in her brain that's trying to kind of dig in and figure out who are you And this is why social proof works so well because if you're surrounded by other women She knows that you've been vetted by them But another thing with that is I wanted the guys who just adopt the behavior is they will set the bar really high It's something I call neal straw syndrome where they know all the correct behaviors. They know exactly what to do But they haven't really Worked that into their default responses So once they get into a relationship, they're not able to keep up the performance 100% of the time because what they're doing Is an actual performance. So when the bpd woman realizes that hey, there's something off by this guy She's just going to Raise the bar on him and he set the fairly high bar for himself to begin with because Everyone who's done pick up for longer than a couple of months will have a lot of Material that they can work through with every girl because let's be honest Everyone has a script. They work on it the same stories. It's a lot of the same line a lot of the same dhv's So once he runs out of material, he's not able to come up with new material Whereas the bpd woman she can keep the act up for a year or two Just because she will just make shit up like it's incredible to watch them like Well, they're very motivated with the uh, they would be abandonment, you know Yeah, but one bpd woman I knew she would literally reinvent herself On roughly a six month basis if she hadn't been able to lock someone down She would just completely changed everything. There was nothing Really fixed in her everything was flexible. So she would one Moment she would be dating a conservative guy and she'd be out on the shooting range in a cowboy hat Next week she was going to crop off all her hair buy some problematic classes And then she was going to be a liberal in protest against guns So yeah, and you're talking borderline. It's not bipolar, right? No, but a border bipolar you can medicate borderline. You can't And I think the only guys who can handle a borderline like they can guys ask can you manage this? Yeah, if you are a psychopath Because a psychopath is kind of the antidote to a borderline because she plays on your emotions. You're insecurities Every single gap in you and a psychopath is more or less He has all of those buttons are turned off in his brain. So he won't react to it in the same way Yeah, that's he it's more of like a narcissist and a borderline is a natural match The one creates his little story of his life and the other one just follows the script Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of writing on that actually between npds and bpds Yeah Funny thing though, do you guys notice that uh when people are talking about pickup artists and how they're sociopathic and all the other Shit sounds an awful lot like somebody describing a bpd woman Just one of those things I've been noticing Well, it's very similar to be honest because a lot of the guys when they get in to pick up to begin with They are doing the exact same thing that a bpd woman is doing But that's why it's important to get rid of to make that your default response and that was one of the Pitfalls with my bpd because I had been in to pick up for a fairly Decent amount of time before I met her. So I had a lot of the behavior is internalized but Then you have your slip-ups because when you let's say a woman Let's say you get sleep deprived and she's more or less constantly on you you will start to slip on those behaviors because Try this if you don't believe me go on three hours of sleep every night for a week and see how clear-headed you are I called that basic training. Let's get a let's get shot in Yeah, one of the things we spend a lot of time last time talking about The borderline woman and for a good reason because it's a real threat But to rollo's point about somebody who's naive or blue-pilled being really vulnerable to the wrong kind of women There's this other personality style. It's the narcissistic personality style I think I believe us want to richards projects to talk about But the guy who is really not prepared For what this is is very vulnerable to losing Himself in his life and his goals and his ambitions to the narcissist because she In a different way than the borderline just becomes this Bottomless pit of need and if you are blue-pilled conditioned or you're naive you'll walk into it thinking Well, someday i'm going to be able to make this woman happy and you're not really clear on what exactly she's trying to achieve You think it's all about the pragmatic stuff that she's trying to get in life But really it's about fulfilling this this black hole within her and if you're not aware of what's going on there I mean you can just lose yourself forever trying to fulfill those needs that can never be fulfilled Yeah, my experience was very similar to rollo's actually married a lot of these same aspects Including actually the age the age was almost in my experience with it was almost identical to rollo's And like him too, I understood I understand now that then you know my late teens early 20s through the pickup community I understood pickup not woman And it wasn't I would say it was not until finding the red pill that I really began to understand women about two years ago Yeah, uh, Richard I was just gonna say real quick, uh I just to shan's point there is I think that one a guy is red pill But he's not invested in and he's not made it, you know internalized as a part of who he is and it's just an act Um, I think that even if a woman isn't necessarily, you know borderline Those guys are going to are going to approach that relationship in the same respect So they end up getting oneitis and I think that even if a woman is still, you know, mentally healthy Guys are going to put her into that role. They're going to, you know, uh, put her on the pedestal They're going to put her on the uh, the the idealization and want to turn her into what that, you know What that mental ideal is so even with a you know, a normal woman It's dangerous enough for a guy But what happens when the guy gets involved in a with in a bpd relationship that is Like I said a recipe for suicide I agree Richard, did you want to hop in? I know you've done a lot of work with uh, obviously recovering from narcissism or narcissistic abuse Yeah, I have um I'm usually a lot chattier than this guys I'm I'm struggling a bit because my brain is buffering because you guys are saying so much and it's it's new It's new to me. So, uh Rolo, I've only just started on your book I'm only on chapter two because like the Jordan Peterson book. I found it's a lot to ingest I can't just hammer through it. I can't I sit there I'll do Paragraph and I'll go oh fuck. That's me Shit and then I have a think about it and then I'll go back to it and it's it's it's moving a lot of stuff around Rich Cooper says it's like drinking from a fire hose Yeah, that's it it is and so I'm I'm nervous about putting my face back in that in that particular air zone and Carl saying there about um The pickup artist community is basically doing what bpd women Do back. I'm like, oh shit. Yes. That's another piece of the puzzle It's falling as the place because when I met a lot of the guys in the pickup community They gave me a bpd vibe now. Usually we would Typically, uh, it's women who are diagnosed bpd and men are diagnosed as npd I personally don't believe that that means necessarily there's more npd men and bpd women I think there's a lot more crossover and I think everything occurs more on a spectrum But the to the point about See red pill and blue pill. I thought I knew what it meant and now I'm relearning it Again, so what you're saying about the the the kids with dynamite a guy who learns red pill behavior But doesn't internalize a red pill map of reality. Yes. He's in trouble. I know he is because 10 years ago my bpd x bought me the game and then when I split up with her I used the nails she bought that for me and sent me on this mad karmic mission and I used the game I got in with more elevated apex predators, you know better like better women who are actually More evil in their intent. So they'd be better looking more intelligent more ambition But every single time I leveled up the pits of despair I'd be sunk to on the discard phase or on the on the flip side would be worse So I've lived that and it was very dangerous because I was going. Yeah, I'm cocky and funny and I don't give a f**k and I'm gonna Oh look, I'm getting really hot goals. Yeah, who you cannot handle and in my head. I'm going. I'm a psychologist I'm trained in an LP. I'll be fine. No, you won't No, you won't not if you don't and I don't think at any point I've ever really understood what's going on And to put the frame of it of just across the B personality disorder I'm now looking at that and going well that that might be wrong. So there are the we might be looking at a situation where the goals dating strategy or short term mating strategy basically forms as a kind of context specific Temporary bpd because they're too close to not make that comparison reaction seeking behavior extremely labile in interpersonal communication Pulling people towards her then when they're too close. Oh, I'm claustrophobic get away from me all of that s**t They all do that and that is if you were a, you know, a clinical psychologist as Sean is You know, you check the boxes you go. Okay, self harm self destruction really really unhappy addictive patterns of behavior Labile interpersonal emotions this person has bpd. So I'm wondering and I'm just wondering it's conjecture I don't have a theory on this is there a case for saying there's a kind of context specific histrionic borderline phase That every woman kind of passes through that is related somehow to rollo's Hypotheses around around their hypergamy. I'll shut up now Carl Yeah, what I wanted to say here is I'm one thing I've usually said the reason why it's so hard to diagnose Women with bpd in my opinion, especially as a layperson It's that they're just normal women with everything cranked to 11 Like a normal woman has has every single behavior more or less that a borderline has just at the lower volume So let's say a borderline woman may go on a three-week Cocaine binge following a rock band around southern california in their van bus doing gangbanks A normal woman might go out after breaking up with her ex drink three bottles of wine and then end up bagging three guys in three nicks So it's the same behavior. It's just at a different volume and I wanted to touch on the Boxes versus behaviors because a lot of guys get stuck into this. Well, is she really bpd is she really npd is she ASpd and they end up in this loop where they're sitting there and they're reading diagnostic criteria And they're trying to check boxes and they're reasoning. Well, you know, she did go on that binge But then again, she said she hasn't been on a really bad binge for the last couple of days I'm not sure if I've said she's that laid vile, etc And Joe Navarro pointed this out in his book dangerous personalities It doesn't matter if she checks three boxes Eight boxes or 12 boxes if she checks if you she has three behaviors that are highly problematic That's enough. Like if she has some paranoid traits some npd traits and some bpd traits She might not be able to get diagnosed, but she's going to be hell on fucking wheels Yeah, she's gonna make your life worse One thing I wanted to add was an analogy which is I think appropriate after carl speaks Carl, let me know you think you're the the greater on this A theory I've had lately is that Like we've been talking about children with dynamite the purple pill the blue pill even with regard to these women I almost see them as like a fire and pickup tactics are like throwing lighter fluid on the fire Maybe it'll be fun and you have like crazy sex with them or maybe you'll be burning your hand off if you add too much So yeah, it's just like it's to me. It's like these women are like on fire And there's various analogies role has had picks and great pictures like this actually for his blog It's in post related to this. I think that's really that's really what it's like to me It's like a fire that you're adding stuff to all the pickup tactics all these narcissistic things. I mean It's good game, but when you mix it with the person with a real disorder It's like you're literally playing the fire almost and and they don't think that they're doing it That's the problem is like blue pill guys You know when they ape the behaviors of you know red pill pick up artistry and they get the results that they want They don't understand that that's what they're doing is that they're throwing gasoline on that fire already because of that And then and then when they think Because they're still attached to those blue pill ideals when they think they can let their hair down when they think they can You know let their guard down and you know be vulnerable and and trust the you know trust this girl And you know have something, you know perfect perfect and pure with her That's when the claws come out And because that's not what she wants that what that is just confirmation To her hypergamy that you aren't the guy that she thought that you were Uh, I also wanted to say real quick is I'm watching the chat a little bit here But uh, one of the things that a very common criticism I think is guys will like to say well all women are like this all women have these this kind of psychosis Or they're just have varying degrees of this, you know being neurotic, I guess Um that I think that's one of the reasons why people sort of downplay Uh dangerous women are they down because first of all we live in a you know a feminine century, you know Guy eccentric, you know feminine primary social order right now So saying anything bad about the feminine or unflatter It doesn't matter how true it is saying anything unflattering about the feminine You know first thing is gonna anyone's gonna say as well, you know men do the two, you know And it's like well, that's not really what we're talking about here But I understand that and it's really that think that's one of the reasons that it's It's so hard to diagnose because I think we we want to jump to those conclusions It's like saying a guy has like asperger syndrome even though he probably doesn't But we say he's a spurg or something and it's like well you're only saying that because that's sort of like the the Disorder du jour for this, you know this century, I guess and we want to ascribe those behaviors to that particular disorder and So that's one of the reasons that I think guys have such a problem Really determining whether their girlfriend has, you know a borderline personality disorder or if she's just acting As a you know neurotic woman, right? So where does that, you know, where does the maybe maybe job? Maybe shan can can sort of clarify this but like where does the normal inconsistencies and insecurities in a woman end and Borderline personality disorder begin Well, I think it begins and ends with that that Fear of abandonment that drives them all but you know as far as learning how to detect it It sounds like everybody in the room here has had some kind of experience with borderline And I think if I was a young guy starting out Because for all you had the world by the balls when you were 22 I was the other way the world had me by the balls and I was trying to figure things out I understood women actually more than I Understood game but that aside I think one of the ways if if you're a young guy starting out one of the ways to get a sense for Keeping yourself safe is number one to listen to this kind of conversation read as much as you can But then you got to have some experiences because when it comes to detecting that personality disorder, there's really nothing that That outweighs just that that gut feeling that you get that something isn't right And like I said a lot of these guys had experiences in this room and I've had some God awful clinical experiences with borderlines and I swear if there was one walking down the street out here I would get a tingle down my spine because I can just feel it and that's really where you need to get is when when you feel like um Yeah, this woman's a little nutty, but this is turning into She's using people around her to accomplish something for herself that is really dark And and you just get that vibration down your spine that says I got to get it that get the hell away from this woman You got to listen to that because um, there's been some interesting research on intuition and how It is intuition is not this thing that belongs in the domain of women It's something that we all have but men learn to tamp it down and the way it the thinking of the way it works Now is that you process information on a couple different levels We have this verbal level and then we have a non verbal level And one of the things our brain is constantly doing is taking in all this information and filtering out things that it sends up to Verbal awareness But then there's all these little things that are non verbal that it's our brain speaks to us through feelings And and into what we feel is intuition and so guys get comfortable with listening to that when a woman's giving you the willies All right, i'll stop now Carl Well, I just wanted to I shared this story with you anthony, but I keep kind of a demilitarized zone around my house So that that's a zone where I won't hit on women just for the sake of I I don't want to end up have drama If I go to the coffee shop or if I go to the grocery store or something like that So a bit like a serial killer. I don't kill anyone within you know a mile of my house but Now the story was that there was this girl at the grocery store that I thought was really cute I was going to get her number but I got this kind of vibe in my head There's something not quite right here. So I'm just not going to do that and Then about two three months later. I just noticed that she has cutting marks going up her arms And I didn't notice that I hadn't seen that before but that was just one of those signs Like if a woman has self harming marks, that's probably a woman. You don't want to play with that fire And I think with training you can learn to spot it But you just get that feeling that something is not quite right here and men are very good at rationalizing it. Well Yeah, something's wrong with her, but she will sleep with me So I'll just put all that in a nice little box over here on the shelf while I'm having sex And then suddenly you find yourself you wake up one morning. You're chained to the bed. All your stuff is gone You're missing a kidney and for some reason there's a cross painted on your wall in blood But you can't figure out it's not my blood Shit, where am I bleeding from and you're like you go back over to the shelf you open up the box and you're like Oh, yeah, there was crazy in here, but I ignored it because well, I was going to get late I'm gonna say that's a big problem especially for guys who are blue pills because if you've gone from Being, you know rejected or just getting like a certain caliber of women like I was saying like you used to You know getting fives and sixes and suddenly this bpd comes into your life And she's like as close to a nine as you can possibly imagine This is the hottest chick you've ever been with This is the end of the the end of your journey really is like Oh, I finally found this beautiful perfect chick who wants to fuck me like a porn star. Wow, that's great And so what you end up finding yourself doing is making all of these concessions And you you want to blind yourself to it because you'll never get as good a girl as this one You know, you'll never have this kind of sex with anybody else because you know, she's crazy in bed But she's crazy out of bed It's like yeah, and there's the guy who also believes that he's just never gonna get another girl And that's a horrible position to come from Yep, uh rich. Did you want to hop in? Yeah, I'd like I'd like roll out to stop describing my life now because it's getting weird the What I was going to say is a tip for lads Who are who are want to look out for borderline personality disorder the one that I always say to people the two fit There's two ease Exploitation and entitlement as Sean said you're going to see them using people around them Using people around you to fulfill a dark agenda No normal person does that another thing That you can do to test that if you suspect something is going on is politely Tell them no when they tell you they want something just look them in the eye smile and say no If you see fury if you see white hot rage You've really got to take a step back and say what kind of a normal fucking person becomes enraged when they're politely told No, but somebody who's on that narcissism psychopathy borderline spectrum. They will do that. I'm sure Uh, I've got the same thing as Sean because of so much clinical exposure I can feel them from like two miles away. It's a spidey sense When they write me an email when I read a youtube comment, I can pick the borderlines out I'm going to do a video that explains exactly how I do this Well, I think something you just said Is it called uh, I mean basically we're saying with these people on the spectrum and the cluster v spectrum You're basically sending me an emotional dysregulation Like they can't regulate a response to even a simple no Is that what that's well? Yeah, all of them suffer from uh intense emotional dysregulation and any intelligent people watching will say well, what about psychopaths? That flatlining of emotion is still plastered as emotional dysregulation No normal human being should feel nothingness all the time The problem with that emotional Lability being emotionally labile all the time is it really warps perception So that's where the paranoia comes in. That's where all the insecurity comes in. I mean that in my last relationship I was being attacked Literally for stories inside of her head that she'd made up about things that I'd done And she would attack me with like a straight face and I'm going this didn't happen And then she would get even more enraged that I told her it wasn't happening so You can with this the emotion is an important thing I just wanted to to finish with this the guys when we talk about intuition Being able to process your own emotions Acknowledging your own feelings and accepting them Will switch back on your intuition So you get back in touch with your feelings and you go this person is creeping me out I'm feeling freaked out stop focusing on just the you know single-mindedly going after sex or going after that Loving relationship a lot of guys like myself. It was sex at first, but it was I wanted the long-term relationship It's an illusion building. I think rich. I think rich and I nailed the same chick back in a day But it's you've got it you've got to feel your feelings You've got to feel those feelings inside and go how does being with this person actually make me feel You know apart from the lust and the excitement if you're feeling a lot of shame and guilt and anxiety and bewilderment That's not cool. You don't want that Yeah, and one of the things you said Richard is um watching out for somebody who's responding to what's going on in their head Versus what's going on in reality, which pretty much defines feminism these days And good good good Well, I actually wrote an essay on that where I diagnosed the more modern social justice mob is having borderline personality disorder according to the I think I noticed a dsm4 at that point because they actually hit all the major diagnostic criteria But I wanted to touch on something that rich just said now with Him being attacked by things that existed only in her head Now I had this with this one the borderline chick I lived with for a couple years and one of the most insane things about that is that You start to question your own perception and your own sense of reality because they will insist Well, no, you fuck that girl. You're like, I'm pretty sure I didn't fuck that girl And then if they repeat that a hundred times to you start running. Well, fuck. Did I fuck that girl? Did I get blackout drunk and bang someone? I don't remember. I'm pretty sure I remember but that's happened before and over time they will Kind of undermine your sense of reality. So in the end Their psychosis is your reality and I don't mean psychosis as in they're actually psychotic I mean as in they will hold the power to define your reality and you question everything That's their one of their core tactics. So to speak is that they Pull you into their frame. They undermine your sense of reality and then when they can define your reality They can just eliminate everyone else. The cults do the same thing Carl, I brought uh, I thought almost the exact same thing when my relationship from the dusa ended that Philosophically that they're attacking viciously your epistemology all those beliefs trying to get inside and then undermine them I think that's how they uh loosely speaking That's how they kind of take control of how you think about the world or your sense of reality like you're calling it Yeah, that's why I'm kind of I've always been kind of a left brain analytical Empirical style thinker, but that's actually become a hell of a lot. Let's say worse After these relationship experiences because I constantly Check in with reality. Like what is the objective view on this now? Actually ask other people on occasion, you know, I'm getting a vibe from this person I'm I the only one that's getting that vibe Just to kind of test because I know that I have an exposed nerve on that point So I will diagnose crazy real early like, okay, this check is giving me a vibe. I'm getting the hell out of there now just because it's Yes, crazy sex is good, but getting stabbed while you're brushing your teeth is not Yep, it's dangerous I wanted to shift the focus a little bit Let's still stay on the same kind of issue set Uh, so let's talk about childhood Childhood trauma specifically or CPTSD as Richard kind of gets into it So when I first broke up with uh medusa and then speech came out and stuff a lot of people were very critical Well, I mean it was all over the map. I had positive responses negative responses, you know, this and that But one of the things I saw that I didn't know what to make of it first And I was skeptical of it until I kind of did more research over the years It was like what my own childhood how that fed into or led to that relationship So initially I was like, ah, this is not sense like whatever my childhood was this could happen anyone And in a sense, I still believe that I don't think people who grew up in a healthy family Are just magically invulnerable to these kind of women or these kind of relationships It just puts you in a much better, uh, much better zone to not get roped into them But if you have any kind of blue pill beliefs, you're still vulnerable to it Um, but to kind of put the uh Put the essence to what I want to say here I realized probably about eight nine months ago that, uh, living with a crazy hooker was actually a step in the right direction for sanity Relative to mount childhood mount family life growing up Which was a real mindfuck to realize that at 29 years old like living Literally cohabitating with a crazy hooker Uh was actually a lot saner and a lot calmer the living with uh mount family growing up So in my case, it's like now i'm able to look back on my childhood and look at it a little more honestly A little more earnestly and try to figure out how that tied into leading to that relationship or that that happening in the first place So richard enough to want to start on this and then from there the panel can kind of hop on it Uh, yeah, actually was was just thinking about this today as uh as we were going around Uh doing doing that tour thing where there was little Spots where I wasn't up to much or chatting to anybody I was just sat dwelling on it and there that I do suspect That will probably find that generally speaking the worse the more chaotic the more abusive the more neglectful the childhood was The worse a personality you can endure and that your Heart for want of a better term has the capacity to love so I know you didn't have it very nice And I also didn't have it very nice to the point where You know, my father is in is in jail right now for abusing his kids The specific case is not my family. It was his first family But it was a very very abusive man and he's probably going to die in jail for that and I think That sort of stretches warps and twists the child's sense of what love is and what a healthy attachment is And if it's really awful really demonic and chaotic Then when a demon walks into your house, you'll be like, hey, I know you do you want a cup of tea? Have a sit down This is what love is like, right? Oh, you're going to eat my arm today Oh, that's sound because that's what I'm used to when I grow up And I think people not raised in that environment. They'll just say get get the fuck out and also These narcissists these board lines is psychopaths. They'll look and they'll see that person has boundaries to the bullshit I'm going to throw at them. I'm not going to eat them. There's no point I'm not going to feed off what they're offering because They might cry. They might tell me they love me But ultimately they're going to kick me out the house this person who was raised in pure chaos and demonic hell Yeah, they'll they'll keep me on they'll marry me They'll you know, they'll give me a place to live and all of that crazy stuff that you and I have both done Um, I think it definitely comes down to a childhood Perception twist of what love looks like and what love should feel like Well, what it sounds like to me is that not even Not even so those things include a bit even proceeding that your sense of normalcy is twisted basically Because I mean in my case those surrounded by constant violence and you know alcoholism and stuff like that All kinds of crazy shit So yeah, I mean that's that's what kind of hit me and uh, I was actually discussing with my older sister I was like, wow living with uh, you know, the hooker ex-wife Was actually a bump in the right direction Which is which is ridiculous to say but it's like that's the honest truth That's the objective If a little bit of a little bit of order a little bit of consistency You know even consistent abuse is better than inconsistent abuse to the mind of a child And of course we are it might be too touchy-feely, you know for some people But I really do believe we are carrying a child inside of us and our our inner child perceptions affect that and they go Well, you know, if you're still carrying wounds and you feel lonely and you feel insecure Yeah, the school is abusive. Yeah, she makes me feel like shit sometimes But you know one day Tuesday Wednesday is not too bad It's just the rest of the week when she's clinging to the ceiling vomiting black blood into my face Well, one of the things I was going to say is like I I think that there's there's two things Really going on here. There's the guy who's sort of the blue pill Guy who gets involved and then there's the the woman who represents this ideal for him The sexual ideal but not only just a sexual ideal but also like the possibility that he wants to settle down Or he wants to get wrapped up in the long term with this person. So there's the aspect where the guy's thinking Yeah, this is this is great. This is great. I love this. She's the hottest chick I've ever been with She's the best in bed. I've ever been with I really want to lock this chick down. Why wouldn't I right? Then on the opposite side There's the woman who maybe or maybe not realize is that she has or doesn't have the borderline personality disorder I think most women who are You know diagnosed with this don't even realize that they have it or don't realize that they have something You know their expectations and their their psychological state is really the the sum total of them being brought up I'm not sure how much genetics plays a role in this. I'm not sure how much this is like nurture versus nature I I gotta there's between like say borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder And I thought maybe that would be something we maybe we maybe shan can touch on here but um I think that when it comes to guys who are very blue pill beta guys all that starts at home We're seeing that right now with like how we're raising the next generation of you know these millennial Well, not even millennials now, but we're seeing those millennials who are raised in a feminine primary Social or they're they're raised as if they were defective girls And so we're starting to see more of these school shooters who are really the results of this feminization People want to want to you know wipe it off on a chauvinistic masculine, you know Oh, they're teaching kids to you know repress their emotions. No, they're not they're teaching these kids not to repress their emotions They're teaching these kids to be expressive with their emotions and when guys do it when boys do it after they've been rejected They do that with a with an ar 15. Okay, so What where does that begin? Where does all that blue pill mentality begin? Because remember we're talking about the perfect storm here. We're talking about the blue pill guy and the The you know bpd woman. I think that the guys start as either they've got a weak father They've got an abusive father They've got a domineering mother or the maybe there are the product of a single mother, which I've been talking about this week um, and so you've got that kind of Building they're building that perfect beta. They're building that guy who would be the perfect victim or that perfect Subject or that I want to say victim. Uh, let's say the perfect host for the parasite to suck on Okay, and then so you've got this guy and then consequently you've got the the bpd woman Who is the parasite who is the one who has maybe she's got something wrong with her? Nine times out of ten. Correct me if i'm wrong here. Sean. They are um, they're the products of an abusive household Or maybe they are the products also of a single of a single mother And then I would also throw in there that if there's a narcissistic element to it, which I think there is Uh, I think that a lot of that is the result of us Coming up in an age where we are deferring to women where we're we're just putting woman kind in the sisterhood above everything else And so there's this sense of entitlement. There's this sense of of I don't want like supremacy superiority of a woman to a man And you and now you combine that with the age of social media and you're over inflating a woman's ego Now imagine doing that to somebody who already has borderline personality disorder You have borderline personality disorder Then you've got a little bit of narcissism and then you've got the the whole social media Overinflation of that ego all combining to create almost like this super predator Of of a you know, I'm a borderline personality woman. So, uh, what do you think about that? I mean rich I'll open it up to rich and and and Sean here. What do you think about? I mean I From what I get these women are the products of Of a broken home or abusive, you know abusive father or a completely absent father Sean Well, yeah, I'll jump in here. So let's define terms for a minute. So we talked a lot about the borderline What drives the borderline go watch that video if you haven't it's this Fear of abandonment basically and other people exist if I'm a borderline other people exist To help me calm myself emotionally Narcissism looks a little bit different, but it looks a little bit similar, but it has a much different root and it's this Um, just this black hole of self doubt and low self regard low self respect low sense of worth And so what you see with somebody who has a narcissistic personality disorder Is somebody who's just preoccupied with fantasies of beauty and intelligence I think they can only be understood by People who are also beautiful intelligent and powerful that they will use other people to Consistently shore up this low sense of self regard and that leads them to use people they they lack They don't have empathy for others because people only exist to fill that need And as far as the the narcissistic household what you see in a narcissist is You know a true narcissist is this old Freudian term that still holds up narcissistic injury So you'll be dealing with with a narcissist and I'm sure we've all experienced this at some point You'll make some innocuous comment and that becomes Um a threat to their sense of self-worth And then this guy came this other psychologist named Kohat came along in the 70s and he added to this idea of narcissistic injury And added narcissistic rage and that is where the person who's a narcissist will actually punish the person who Injured them and that could be anything from becoming aloof to using physical violence and everything in between And so when you have a kid that grows up in this environment where they're getting punished give you an example Um You'll say the mother or the father's out with friends and they're talking about this new car that they got And the kid not knowing the rules yet will just say something innocuous like oh, I thought it was a used car I thought I heard I heard you say it was a used car and to a normal person that means nothing Yeah, it's a used car. It's just a piece of data, but to the narcissist that becomes Chopping them off at the knees in front of their friends. That's the narcissistic injury So the narcissistic parent will then go home and punish this kid And so the kid who learns to learns what the punishment looks like will start to value that predictability And um richard was touching on this point that we value predictability as children And it's it's simply because these brains are odds making machines and we like to know what's coming It's not that we get attached to the punishment. It's just that we we get accustomed We look for predictability so that we know how to order our world So then you grow up and you go into a relationship and you just pride for these people who are um who have These narcissistic tendencies and I do think social media primes people for this like it Maybe nature loads the gun But then social media pulls the trigger and turns a person into a narcissist And suddenly because what you grew up with is this punishment this narcissistic injury and this narcissistic rage That's what you go out and you look for because your odds making machine says well, at least I know what to predict here So I don't know if I even came close to you what you were asking me rollo Dude, I think that was awesome. Yeah, that was crazy. That's a good thinking about that too. Yeah, really good breakdown rich when you talk about narcissism It's that big uh The story they have that just one man's story in their head and just getting in the way of that can be dangerous Well, I think it also sort of plays into um, I mean what I talk about when I I go into the innate solipsism of women That's one more element. I think that needs to be added to this is that I mean if you read my books You read what I would I get into when it comes to solipsism I used the word solipsism rather than like narcissism for a very specific reason because what it is is that um women have evolved to To think that the that everything revolves around them and they have to do that because that was a survival instinct in our evolutionary past where they have to believe that everything affects them and that anyone outside of them Is only feeding into what their existential experience really is because if they don't they don't survive and their offspring don't survive And so take that And add that to what I was just saying before about, you know, an abusive background A narcissistic, uh, you know, a predisposition social media inflating an ego and now add You know Solipsism to a borderline personality disorder and like I said, you get that super predator And this is a difference between men and women who are cluster B. This is the phenotypic difference, right? Our gender difference Go ahead rich, you're just gonna say something Um Just that there are there are certain traits and I'm I'm sure I could sit and chat with Sean Frazier and we could probably come up with a few more that Most people would agree Should be listed in the dsm, but they're not uh, solipsism isn't and um, my mind is boggled that it isn't because We know very well that both narcissists and boardlines can't just take Feet true feedback from the outside in the narcissist is going to take it as Sean just said is narcissistic injury and respond with narcissistic rage Uh, the borderline will take it as an affront and a threat and respond with a talionic punishment So because you told me this truth how fucking dare you now? I'm going to have to take a finger You know, so there is that solipsism is definitely there Those are the things like hyper competitiveness that think being hypersensitive. They're not listed. They should be So the the definition could do with filling out a bit That would help people recognize when they're in a relationship with somebody who has an abusive personality disorder But somebody made the point earlier abuse is abuse knowing exactly what type and stuff It's it's fun for those of us who are in psychology and we like the argument We like the intellectual fencing of it, but it really doesn't matter abuse is abuse The only thing that I wanted to add to what Sean said was that might fill it out Just a little bit more The borderline supply Narcissistic supply is tell me I'm wonderful worship me borderline supply tends to focus around Give me sympathy. So they like attention But they like their milkshake flavored with a good dose of sympathy and victim put But apart from that it kind of functions very very similar to narcissistic supply the other thing is That in some of the research now because none of this is based on neurotransmitters or urine tests Or blood samples. We basically talk to the client. We see of these stable Patent of traits is coming out here. We think this is your personality disorder There is discussion about redefining things and they're saying that what we normally would call covert narcissism or shy Narcissism or vulnerable narcissism may very well overlap with borderline personality disorder as a definition And the difference between the two and this might be useful for people trying to figure out Which way is up if they're in a relationship like this If you have a grandiose classic narcissist They want narcissistic supply and they find it easy to get it. They find it easy to get Their narcissistic supply the shy or vulnerable or possibly borderline personality disorder They want narcissistic supply But that supply is flickering and to the extent that it comes and goes Is the extent to which their confidence flickers in and out of reality. So that might be of use I got a quick question for you rich you use this and I think people want to hear your story about your personal experience But you use this phrase and heard before you were talking about narcissistic punishment and then you said borderline punishment You said something like talionic pun. What did you say? Yeah, talionic. What is that? It's um, I I don't I can't remember the original greek, you know, it's all greek, isn't it? It's always a greek teleology in the branch of philosophy Is it a branch of philosophy? So you're referring to shooting or basically what you should do teleology Uh, no talionic That's what ontology That's the ontology rule-based ethics of Start to interrupt. It sounds it sounds like I thought you were saying something else. I'm a surgeon What's the idea of the talionic punishment? that if That it's an eye for an eye basically but Talionic punishment would be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth But you should add obviously in the borderline or narcissistic world if you take one of my eyes I'm going to take two of yours and your kid's eyes as well because you need to fucking know because that's the punishment is never It's so it should be called like super talionic punishing really or super talionic talionic punishment. Um, I like it So, so thank you. Did you want me to give my story of the of my relationship with the bp? Was that the question? Uh, yeah, I think it's the hottest shit everybody's curious. We want we want to know the story Where's the dirt, dude? I want to I want to see if we dated the same chick Oh, no Was she a chinese malaysian from the book? There kind of variations of the first really Dear me. I've never really talked about this in public The first one was um somebody who was a dancer and that was her job Was being a dancer Not quite a stripper. She was a nightclub dancer who danced on the podiums and uh, she was a nice looking goal and Uh, very chatty very very confident and outgoing Uh, I think rollo said something about it all being way too easy in the beginning So that was my experience. I was I think what you guys would call a purple pill, you know that sort of that space of Very very disney ideals for a lot of disney belief systems running inside of me And but realizing that that didn't quite work Mainly because I'd watched the behavior of my father who was a classic psychopath and I was like well Obviously there must be more to the world than that um And so I got into a relationship with her very very rapidly And long story short on the borderline narcissism scale. She was a histrionic So she was obsessed with garnering narcissistic supply through her sex her sexuality and her beauty She was childlike. She was infantile her emotional expressions were uh always Petulant when pushed on any issue of that counted for anything She'd either respond like a four-year-old or she'd completely stonewall She would just disappear inside of herself and not respond at all that relationship obviously didn't end very well Um, and then my second go-around on the magic merry-go-round of delights I decided to date a full-blown Cenobite um, a dark triad psychopath histrionic borderline and overt narcissist um, and She was the survivor. So in the first instance Rola was talking about coming from broken homes They were immigrants who'd moved to the uk and the father left them after two years of them moving to the uk And he went all the way back to asia complete abandonment issues Second uh story though The family stayed together, but they were refugees from a war zone or refugees from the bosnian genocide Where she was raised in an environment where one of her earliest memories were were men with guns snipers Trying to shoot them in the apartment block where they lived and running between the towers And then you know, I'm sure you're you're aware of what the xlavian wars Played out like being pulled from buses being asked what your name was Do you have a muslim sounding name? Do you not all of this and it generates Obviously, it's going to break your sense of safety and it's going to break your self image very very badly so her Emotional Disregulation was was very very pronounced and I believe that that led to a psychopathic worldview That nothing meant anything power was everything that that counted and the way to get to power was to use Attractiveness sex and sexuality and blue pill mythology to hook somebody into where she wanted to get to So that's the that's the short version of both stories. How did I do? Well, yeah, not quite what I had but that's that's interesting I feel so relieved. Thank you Especially the powers I think you know one of the things that I I had to go through and I think that a lot of One commonality I think that borderline personality disorder women have Is they go from being very Parasitical to being very meaty and they like almost change characters when they realize that their host is is getting irritated, you know when I Finally decided that I wanted to get away and I was going to literally I had to move away from this person Want on the on the night? Or I'm yeah Well on the night and in the morning that I was going to I was going to move from southern california up towards up to northern california That was when She completely changed and it was it was she'd gone from being very like crazy violently jealous of anything that you know I literally had to walk around with blinders on it to avoid seeing any other women or anything like that And I can remember When I was trying to make the decision whether I wanted to leave You know la and move or I was going to try to stick it out and stay with her Um, that's when she changed because when I was even having these discussions or when I was even thinking about this It's almost like they she could Subconsciously pick up on the fact that the host is leaving or that the host wants to get away And so what she does is she changes the behavior at that point She goes from being this really super aggressive super jealous girl to being this very Don't leave me or that the abandonment thing that that shawna was like, yeah You know and what happens is that's when she says if you leave I'll kill myself and suddenly You that like plays I think that's really sort of the perfect storm part of the perfect storm there Because you've got this girl that you used to think was the best sex you're ever gonna get and you wanted this You know see if you could have some kind of future with her you realize she's nuts She's always showing she's nuts. She it's it's like, you know driving you away from your family away from your friends You've been you've been isolated All of this shit that goes along with that so that she can just stay and maintain her her grasp on the host Suddenly she sees the host leaving and then she has to do a 180 And so she actually turned into someone who I had no idea who she was and that That's kind of what freaked me out at that point because I thought well, you know She hates me so much my leaving shouldn't be that big a deal for her But then when I said I was going to take off. She's like I'm going to kill myself if you leave. I'm going to you know, this it's all these threats or it's all this You know, please my life would be so different without you And so it goes from being this really super hot and aggressive to being this really passive and really needy You know, I need you in my life kind of thing And maybe here Yeah, and when you are a blue pill guy imagine your imagine you're like really I mean almost borderline omega kind of guy And you hear that and that triggers your Your natural male protective instinct like oh, what am I thinking? Why did I do that? Right now? Maybe she'll change maybe this is the catalyst for that Maybe now she's good because the thing that kept me in the relationship And I think it's probably kept a lot of the other guys in the relationship Is that there's this? First of all, there's this idea that she's an actually some sort of ideal But there's also that side of you that you think that if you just stick it out if you just persevere a little bit further She's crazy now, but when she gets to be she you know, she's 22 when she's crazy when she gets to be 26 She'll be a little bit better or things will change her once things change in her life Or she gets a little bit older or some, you know, she gets that job She graduates from college or she does all that kind of stuff. You think that those are every little progressive Advancements in her life is going to mean that she's going to come out of her shell and she's not going to be crazy She's going to finally trust you up after all of this shit She's finally going to put you on the you know, the trust ladder of some sorts That doesn't happen But when she flips from that super aggressive Person to that really needy and a set you know needy clingy girl that needs your protection and needs your love That's when you think that that is What the catalyst was that's when you think oh, she's finally having the shift that I'd hoped for for so long And that's what drags you back into the cycle again And then you go, okay things are changed now. Great. She needs me. Okay. Don't worry about it. I'm gonna stay in the relationship We're gonna we're gonna work things out And then it's like, okay. I love you. Love you. Love you. Maybe it's good for like a week week and a half And then she goes back into the aggressive Predator style of things And you realize that once you've gone through this cycle, hopefully You've gone through this and you realize okay I need to get out of this and you're you're red pill enough to To understand that or you've got somebody that's helping you out because I'll tell you with this right now man When I was in the when I was in with my with my bpb My friends just gave up on me. My family gave up on me It was to the point where I was completely isolated with this person I was the one it was all down to me I had to be the one to decide that I was going to get out of this and I was going to put myself first and Think about this. I always talk about guys making themselves their mental point of origin Imagine you're a blue pill guy and you're with a bpb and you never make yourself your mental point of origin Those are the guys that end up killing themselves. Those are the guys who go anthony bordain because they Keep putting women kind and they want to be supportive and they put women on pedestals and they they default to Deferring to her authority and wanting to be this, you know, I don't want to be like my dad So i'm going to be as supplicative and as you know helpful and as supportive as I possibly can Well, that's just food for that predator That's just food for that for that, you know, bpb woman to keep feasting on all the time because In this day and age where guys are more blue pill. That's what they want You're actually giving them exactly what they want in that case But then what happens is she goes from being super hyper aggressive to being Very passive and very needy and then that triggers your Your blue pill supportive side you're I'm not going to put myself first. I'm going to put her first We're going to work it out. We're going to make things work. I know it's a shitty situation But I think it could be better Comes back around she gets aggressive and you do the whole cycle and the whole dance again And if you don't break that cycle and you have to do it That's a problem. You have to do it on your own because nobody can tell you Shit, okay They can't tell you to get out of this because you're still wrapped up in this idea that your your friends are wrong Your family is wrong. Everybody else is wrong and so Breaking that cycle it really comes down. I think it certainly did I mean in this day and age, maybe it's a little bit easier because we have the red pill because we have forms because we have the internet But back in the 90s when I was dealing with this like we're talking about like 93 to like 96 somewhere around there No internet no man's fear. No red pill. No pickup orders. None of that shit it's all it was all down on me to like decide do I want to go in this door or do I want to go on this door And fortunately, thank god I got out of that and I think I'm a better person because but it really people ask me Well, when was your red pill awakening if I had to peg the time it was when I decided to leave the vpd Damn Carl we'll hop in Yeah, I wanted to do something. I don't think it's a cycle. Rollo. I think it's a downward spiral I think it's just they keep driving you down in one of the ways one of the reasons it was Hard for me to finally break that cycle was that A slowly erode away your confidence and your Self-worth and whatever value you have they will suck all of that out of you And then when that's gone You're gonna have a hard time to leave because you'll believe that if I leave this person I have no other option if they've eliminated your family your friends And any confidence you have in that you can handle it by yourself Then you're going to need some kind of external input And I just remembered why rick's face was so familiar when he logged on because I actually watched one of his videos on this about four years ago I think To get into it There are two ways this and either you walk away or they discard you They do they devalue you and discard face and you're gone And I was going to say that if you're lucky they leave you But then I started to think about the anthony bird anything and that's usually when guys kill themselves during that After they devalue you and discard face. They will kill themselves Guys generally don't kill themselves when they leave but what happens is You get this situation where if the guy leaves the borderline will Do what they call the I think they call it a Hoover because they will try to pull you back in I remember anthony when he just left and he was like, oh here Here she is trying to get me to sleep with her again hearing And he was sharing all this shit and I was just sitting there going Do not go back there. It's not worth it because that's kind of the you have to try to hold people away from that person and When you're away from them without a sense of contact for a while, then you start to come out of the fog Once you start to come out of the fog they might actually hit you with another contact attempt So I my rule is always just go no contact block them on social media If you can get rid of any means they have of contacting you so that they can't contact you And then you just have to be sure of yourself and not contact them because it takes it's like smoking I quit smoking five years ago. I still want cigarettes and if I have one cigarette I'll smoke an entire fucking pack So I just have this rule no cigarette smoking because I know then I'm back to a packet a before you have Before I can say yeah lighter So when you leave them, they will try to suck you back in But if they leave you then you usually hit a depressive cycle because then you're in that scarcity mindset Where you're thinking i'm never going to find anyone like her again and you need someone to look well Dude shut up with that while you are Hang on girl. Hopefully you never do find someone like them again, although undoubtedly statistically you will bump into them Depends on how active you are so statistically I think I was in something like one in One in five the women can be diagnosed with a mental disorder But then you're counting the whole host of them So then you get your bipolar is your depressives your anxiety disorders And those can be dealt with to some extent if they're not too severe And if the person wants to work on it, but the fact of the matter is that A lot of people won't be willing to work on it and depressives especially are very guilty of the whole They won't get the energy to do it in the same way that someone with the bipolar might enjoy the mania faces And will hate the depressive faces, but they can't quite Give up that high when they're in mania So it really depends on the person being willing and aware and actively working on it Brian did you want to hop in you have a think a number of experiences and stories you can share from the married red pill side Yeah, and I'm going to apologize up front because this is going to be a real debbie downer So we get They're not the most common stories you see in married red pill and my personal one It doesn't even it's even get the top five of this podcast though But it usually has the exact same scenario this poor bastard will give like this 5000 word rant Detailing that all the horrible shit she does and it's always it's never well like you can't justify it It's always like she beats the dog kind of shit And when you read it the tone is never one of like anger It's this weird like desperate frustration. It's like watching a gambling addict Which makes sense because I remember you were talking about the the push and pull like I remember was Sean or rollo talking about the push and pull Of the bbd kind of chick where it's like uh, it's like a little bit of reward intermittent And it has that same Feel to it when guys are describing it and you when you look at it from the outside It's fucking obvious this chick is crazy. She's beating the shit out of you. You got to get out of there And this is the this is the depressing part You get two reactions and it's the only two reactions. I've ever seen from it You either point out all the stuff that she has done and why it's wrong and he'll agree with you Yes, exactly. He gets his vindication. It's like those Fight club remember the scene about the testicular cancer meetings where they all sit there and they have a big cry and They're none of her men, but they just tell each other their men So that's the one side and then the other side when you point out the obvious stuff He should be doing he will fight you tooth and nail just like rollo was saying He will tell you yeah, she's shitty. You're like, yeah, she is shitty. He goes. I know Yeah, so get away from a shitty girl and then no no no and then he'll start making excuses and it's It just kills the empathy and it's exactly like rollo said it's You just got to distance yourself because he clearly does not want to be saved He just wants to bitch about it and feel feel vindicated that he's right as opposed to being happy And so I I mean I can't really relate I had like richard was saying one of those childhoods where Like my name growing up was that little bastard until I stood toe to toe with my stepfather And that's when I actually he started calling me ryan. So I mean that's good on him You're not a man until you put your old man in the hospital Um, I don't really have I don't really have a good ending for this other than other than I hope nobody's crying right now but it's just it's It's tragic and I really am glad that shawn and richard here because I don't have the the doctor training or the experience to articulate this weird spiral of like Horrible shit and I can see why guys are killing themselves. I just don't understand It to the level that I would need to actually help You do see if those are recurring theme. I'm married road pill. Uh, so yeah, I think it's it's pretty neat to see that It's horrible, but Yeah, it's depressing and it makes you hard too because you like you just stop caring like now when I see you guys doing This stuff. I really don't give a shit. I tell them to go wallowing it Jesus and it's it's a bad it's a bad thing like if you're supposed to be helping men And the first thing to have is just like this cold attitude about it, but I don't know what else to do They're used to it by that point so yeah Sean did you want to happen Well, yeah, the only thing I get out to that is that there's this clinical I guess it's sort of a collection of clinical techniques out there called motivational interviewing That addresses part of what you're talking about ryan where when you try to discuss Somebody destroying themselves with them. They become very defensive about the way that they're Destroying themselves whether it's in a relationship or it's used a lot with substance abuse recovery But it's designed to get around that Resistance that just naturally comes up anytime you argue with anyone about anything They start arguing the other side even if it's completely ridiculous and they're only shooting themselves in the foot doing it So I wanted to shift even further gears into like what happens after this relationships over Or that kind of relationships over and assuming another one isn't in your future Uh, you know richard's case that obviously happened in my case that came to mind pretty quickly For whatever reason, uh, probably I guess maybe I would assume a history in the pickup community But something kind of pushed me in the direction. I was that was like if I don't figure out what the hell just happened This is going to happen again Which I think is you know a theme that you see uh a lot of guys arrive at the right political because of that They go through not one of these relationships, uh like role and I did but they go through multiple until finally either they kill themselves Or they snap out of it. They start getting uh curious about the information about what's happening And they find the red pill or a blog or a book or whatever Uh, but so let's talk a little bit more though about recovering from these relationships healing from it Uh, you know the immediate aftermath and the weeks and months that follow as well as the years Uh, in some cases like rollo rollo is like 20 over 20 years out of his in my case two and a half Uh, I don't know about carl and richard, but uh There's a lot of meat there I think it was one of the things I talked about even in my speech You know that was given just four months after that experience Rich is remember when you had to kick or carl when you had to kick that girl out of his house for the cast That's the one is that two weeks ago? I I'll just go real quick here is um when I was sort of breaking it off when I I actually had no other choice My the my living situation had become such that I had no other choice but to get away from this woman And you know to my shame I tried to do the long-distance relationship thing with her too because I still thought I could work it out I still thought maybe well, maybe she'll come along or maybe she'll want to you know Still be a part of my life and I was still you know wrapped up in that blue pill mentality And I think that part of the recovery process Is definitely a firm You know kicking the ass and then it's going to have to be Uh learning about I mean really accepting that there even is a borderline personality disorder because I can remember After leaving her and finally just cutting myself off from her and I was getting back into other relationships and I was starting to date non exclusively and I was starting to put myself as my own mental point of origin Uh when I started doing that I realized that my life was changing for the better because I was I was actually concerned about my own You know well being and it was at that point that I I mean I didn't think of it at that point But at that point I put myself first and I decided to be a little bit more selfish and to be a little bit more of a dick You know and not to worry so much about you know Being this supportive perfect blue pill husband in the future or something like that And I found that once I started making myself You know a little bit more self-important not not selfish, but self-important You know I I had a firm belief in enlightened self-interest where it's like I can't help anybody until I can help myself I started helping myself And part of that was I'm like fuck it. I'm going to start dating again. I'm going to go back to the You know the happy go lucky kind of lesser alpha that I used to be back in the day because I I took a really introspective look at myself once I had cut myself free from all that And I'm like what happened to the old role of what happened to that guy because there were times where I was like Missing going out and playing. I mean I really miss going out and being in the in the scene. I really miss going out because I'd given up everything I'd given up playing music. I'd given up my my artistic sides I'd given up pretty much every aspect of my life that I thought would in any way Make her jealous or would in any way be a distraction from Giving her the attention that she wanted and so consequently all of the things that I loved I ended up giving up And so when I think probably part of the recovery process really should be A guy getting back in touch with his own first of all getting in touch with his own inner asshole and then second of all Getting back in touch with the things he loved that he had to give up Because he had to facilitate that relationship with that bpd And so that's when I think guys really need to reconnect with their family reconnect with their friends Get back into the scene and say hey look I'm back from the dead kind of thing And literally you are back from the dead because that old person That you used to be is now gone And that was the person that she turned you into because I'll tell you man when I look back on those days I just could not believe who I was. I'm gonna tell okay. I'm gonna tell you this one story here and then I'll finish And I've never said this before and this was this is really embarrassing for me to say this back in the day I used to have one of those Those call you know those answer machines that used to be you know before we had you know cell phones and all this other stuff You know we had these message machines that were based on like you know like a cassette tape And you put the cassette tape in and then when somebody called you and say oh, please leave a message after the beat You know and then it would you would record right? Well, there was a way that you could record voice memos and I didn't realize I had done this one time But I was actually recording Myself having this Conversation with my bpb girl And I didn't realize I had done that and then I think probably about 10 years 15 years later I had come across this tape again And I was throwing things away and I like what the fuck is this? So I ended up playing this this cassette and I listened to myself from my You know from my new red pill kind of More alpha self the the person that I had become Away, you know the one of the reasons I tell guys is you know Personality isn't static is because I have been somebody who I did not want to be and then I turned myself into somebody I did want to be but I listened to this cassette tape and I'm like who the fuck is this Who is this guy and I was listening to this and I'm like I know it's me and it was the most pathetic most you know Mealy mouth, you know wishy washy That kind of shit and I was like who the fuck is this guy who sounded like somebody else And I didn't realize that it was me that was me on this tape because I didn't realize I had recorded it And I'm like holy shit. That's what I was talking to such and such I must have hit the button that I did the you know the voice memo and I'm listening to this tape And it's probably about like maybe 15 20 minutes long and I'm like who the fuck is this guy? And so I listened to that and then I realized it was at that point Where I realized that I was somebody else and now I've turned myself into someone better And to this day I'm a whole lot better than I was back then But it's this cutting away. It's this becoming somebody else's I think really that's part of that reconstruction process You have to be you have to understand first of all that you can be somebody else if I'm an introvert I'll never be an extra for bullshit. You can be whatever the fuck you decide that you want to be you are who you want to be and When I realized that we can go through things like post traumatic stress disorder And that going through that is a form I'm not going to say it's as it's as bad as going off to combat or being deployed But I it's a certainly a form of post traumatic stress disorder because afterwards And and you guys can tell me this if you if you have had this before But like you'll dream about her and you'll dream that like she's some way in your life And it's like one of these really stressed like these anxiety producing dreams where it's like Oh, cool is what she's is that her and I mean you're here you are like You know six seven years later and you're still dreaming about that one chick And you're psych you really in that your your psychology or you're in the back of your head You have not gotten over this person and that maybe you have gotten over them But the back of your head still hasn't you know accepted that that person is gone from your life And so I think that your subconscious sort of Associates with her presence with anxiety and and stress And so that's why you dream of that person because that was the most stressful Situation that you've been in so those are certain I think those are really the fundamental key ways to unplug yourself from that old relationship You got to make yourself your first your mental point of origin Reconnect with the things that you loved reconnect with uh with your family that you were isolated from reconnect with friends And then decide for yourself that you're going to be somebody who you Who you are completely different from from when you were in that relationship because that guy Is going to lead you down a very dark path. If not kill you. So keep that in mind I'm sorry go ahead Just real quick. I wanted to show a book that I think carl recommended us I saw a few weeks ago on twitter called splitting. I haven't read it yet But apparently should be really good for a guy going through a breakup or particularly a divorce It looks like a lawyer actually is one of the authors on it an attorney Carlsville, I think he specializes in high conflict And high conflict divorces and high conflict legal cases That's a code word within the legal profession for dealing with narcissists psychopath and BPD women In legal cases because they will make that process go forever And there was a guy who asked the question here that I wanted to tackle because Roland more or less covered my entire Out to recover a speech basically sleep eat train go no contact Establish a group for support and then you have to rebuild yourself Let's get Sean and uh before you continue Sean. Oh, yeah, I just just a minor point I'm really intrigued by these moments of clarity like the one that rollo described where he heard himself on tape And maybe be a good topic for a future episode like what What is that moment of clarity for guys that brings them to a red pill awareness? Is it like one incident like that that really hit some or is it several instances just kind of curious about that Yeah So carl did you have more to continue on with that? Yeah, I had there was a guy who asked a good question that I think we need to tackle in the chat and he asked Can you talk about how to safely extract yourself from a BPD situation to avoid a lashback? Rate that accusation domestic abuse accusation, etc Should you leave gradually or all at once our BPDs likely to lash back from leaving? And yes, they are and not all of them are going to be equally bad from what I've read on it But a good general rule is everyone has a recorder on their phone Always have that recorder on once you once you realize you're going to leave always record it's better to have that recording and get the A slap on the wrist for recording someone without their knowledge Then it is to have no evidence on your side in a court case I still have about 50 hours of phone recordings stashed Just in case So that's a good one and also I think you should leave all at once There's this is like ripping off a band-aid You just want to do it right away and be done with it because The average should I read somewhere that the average person in an abusive relationship takes three attempts to leave So if you do it halfway, you're not going to be able to they will pull you back in So I would say uh, the best strategy is the same one that used with women who are living with abusive men Just make sure they're out of the house one day get all your shit and get the fuck out and Set up at a place. They don't know ideally so they can't show up at your house And you know if they call the cops then deal with the cops if they Say they're gonna kill themselves then you then you if they send if a woman calls you said i'm going to kill myself You call the police and you send the police to their house And they will do a welfare check on them Because that's not your responsibility But if they get the police on their door, you may get an angry Email or phone call. Why the fuck did you send the police to my house? Well, you said you were going to kill yourself I can't handle that that's the police responsibility And just keep it very clinical if you have children with them It's going to be a lot more difficult and those are the men I really sympathize with because if you have children with a dpd woman a narcissistic woman Psychopath whatever they're going to have to be in your life for the rest of your life or at least until the children are 18 So at that point you have to strategize better And it's generally better to be the one if you're married to serve the other person with divorce papers Rather than having them serve you Yeah, and I would I would just I guess underscore that point that if you need to leave Yeah, I'm I'm of the mind that get it done don't mess around don't relapse But two things is number one get people around you because this relationship has fucked with your sense of reality It's messed with your head You got to have a team around you and the other thing is document everything even if you can't record everything You can write down times and dates and people and topics of conversation and quotes and It's man if you if you got kids involved you really got to strategize about how to do this Yeah Yeah, what about uh, let's talk a little more about practical tips Hey, just just real quick rich. How did you go about getting out of your situation? How did you get to the point where you're at right now? I thought you were rid of us, huh? You just like seeing me squirm. That's what this is Uh, I was I was a real tough guy. Oh, I was tough I was such a tough guy. I uh, I basically at the time when we split up I was paying 90 of of the rent Um on a very very expensive apartment that she insisted on getting and I supplicated to getting Um, and I said, okay Finally finally finally after weeks of going back and forth and you were talking before about Flipping between two strategies one will be soft and weak and the other one will be aggressive and manipulative and They'll try and see which one is the one that's going to get you to go back into your hypnotic trance like submissive state And she was realizing that neither would so she would just fly into these white hot rages. So in the end I said, okay We are now splitting up. I've packed my bags I'm leaving and I left And I went to a hotel because we're in a foreign country She had me move to a foreign country by the way because yeah, I have my shed together and um From a hotel Like five miles down the road. I was sat there and I was like hang on Hang on the deposit is mine. I paid 90 of the rent and I said a text. I was like, uh, I think Probably it's you that should move the fuck out because that's kind of my place And it's my deposit and it's in my name and she she did she said fine. I'll move out to over the road So one day I was in the living room And I just got out of bed and the living room looked out over the road And I was just in my shorts and I looked outside and who should I fucking see but my ex-girlfriend And she had moved Literally where she could see from her bedroom into the living room You can't make this shit up I mean if I I can tell you guys that but I can't tell people that because they'll be like no no no That's too much. That's that's that's a silly add-on to the story. I'm like that's what fucking happened I thought she was gone and I walked through the curtains where the living room was and I locked out and there she was And she's moved into the fucking flat opposite me and I'm like, Jesus Christ. I'm I'm hearing that violin riff from psycho It had gotten like that and I she's she's 55 kilos I've been doing Muay thai since I'm 18 and I'm scared of her. I'm genuinely and I I was talking to a counselor at the time and I'd sit there and I'd laugh I was nervous laughter He'd be like you're frightened of her aren't you and I'd say yeah, and he was like, why are you laughing and I'm like How the why am I frightened of this? Little tiny angry creature. Like what's she gonna do? What can she do? But I was I was frightened. She had me on the back foot. She had me Adrenalized she would she was quite clever though She would do things like she'd wait till I'd gone to sleep And then she'd start an argument with me in the dark whilst I was asleep She'd wait an hour and then she'd start screaming at me So I would yeah, yeah hyper generalized hyper generalized never really felt safe and yeah She got to me man. She got to me. So eventually I said to her please leave and she moved over the road So my next step was three weeks later. I packed all my shit into a car Spued the deposit on the house and said I'm not sat here being stalked by my ex-girlfriend And I just left the country and that was that That's one of those things that always is so funny about hearing these stories. It's like I wonder is it just like one crazy chip who everyone has had like uh Some time went because like I remember my ex would wake until I was falling asleep And then she would start fights or she would throw shit at me and you know when I moved out I slept like 12 14 hours a day for almost three months because I've been sleep deprived for a better part of a year Yeah, just like totally random stuff like throwing a glass of water or something at me while I was sleeping or something So no matter what like they would even do like welfare checks when you're in the bathroom because they don't want to You to have any space where they're not in it's like I'm gonna go take a shit. No, I'll come with you She wouldn't that's exactly what she would do. She wouldn't let me take a shit and if it took too long She would complain I'd be like I can't even take a what the fuck it's just a constant Mental offensive. Maybe we have all dated the same It's the same Yeah, like there's not that much variation in experience. So just these swapping and notes. It's amazing how quickly like you get caught up There's only like six scenarios with chicks and we've just talked about four of them. So we're like good to go now Hey rich, uh, let's talk a little bit about cptsd and recovering from that Uh, we'll even describe what that is relative to ptsd, which people are more familiar with So ptsd is this uh I got this from from I was discussing it with my brother-in-law and we'd just been to shooting range together in america for the first time He'd never shot before I'd never shot before and we tried a combat shotgun and we tried a 357 revolver And this is where the analogy came from. So he wanted me to explain what I do and I was like the ptsd is usually singular So you have a single incident that you can recall in conscious memory Uh, and it has visuals auditory and kinesthetic feelings associated to a particular event the brain makes a simple connection between driving in a car And an ied going off and you would fit the amygdala will replay The danger of driving in a car is that you could be blown up and you'll spin and you'll hear glass shattering And people screaming and radios going off or whatever. That's a singular event all of this crosses over by the way, of course the complex ptsd is what is left on the target after you've gone at it with a combat shotgun Which is you you shred it. So there's there's just thousands of little tiny pellets that have just cut this target in half And it's no one thing Now the difference is because it's multiple traumatic events that are both visible and invisible Implicit and explicit you can never really put your finger on it And because of that it tends to dwell in the unconscious now if I have ptsd I can say i'm scared because an ied went off or Somebody was sniping at me if you have c ptsd you say i'm scared because I don't know. I guess i'm just crazy So then you start layering in guilt and shame on top of that Then you'll see a therapist who doesn't really know what they're doing. They'll do a kakanda job. They'll make it at worst They'll retraumatize you The key element is with the ptsd. You know what a flashback is. It's the same as a psychedelic flashback an acid flashback Something reminds you of the event you see what you saw you hear what you heard and you feel what you felt in that moment That's a ptsd flashback Because c ptsd is tiny little multiple tears and it dwells in the unconscious You never really know what the trigger is and the flashback is emotional So we talk in terms of emotional flashback. So it could be toxic shame abandonment rage Completely freezing in terror and you won't know what has caused it again This spirals back into yourself image you internalize it and you say there must be something wrong with me I must just be a crazy person other people can walk to the shops without getting upset or sweating or feeling really anxious I can't do anything without that. That's uh in a nutshell. That's the difference between c ptsd and ptsd Yeah brilliant Damn keep it there's power and simplicity. I was talking to shon a little bit in the private chat He's like i have nothing out here Yeah, so let's also Okay, one of the things yeah, one of the things that was kind of interesting with the richest description there is I kind of have it's like my memory is sort of a black hole of that relationship Like I don't remember many Like I'll remember completely mundane details and I did what shon did while I was going through it So I have two full notebooks Of different events and when I read back these notebooks I haven't seen them in years now, but when I read them back it's like, okay I know this happened because I wrote it down But I cannot for the life of me Remember this specific event and then you'll go like two three years down and something will just happen And suddenly you remember that event and it's kind of strange because it's like It's like seeing a film where you know, you have overexposed Pictures or something in it so you can't really you know something that is there But you can't remember what it is and then suddenly it all comes back to you in full color I was gonna I was gonna say is um when I was uh When I was sort of breaking that cycle and I was finally away from her I think I was telling you guys is like I would have these dreams about her and that was What I would associate my anxiety with she would show up in the dream The other thing is and I don't know if any of you guys ever had any of that Where like you dreamt about your you that you were back in that old situation again But the other thing is that when I had cut myself away from from her I was I was still not I wasn't quite who I was who I am now, but I wasn't that old guy But as a result of that I was I was constantly walking on eggshells with the women that I was dating Not exclusively at the time one of which was my wife, but uh I can remember having to sort of give myself permission to be that guy to be you know to be more self-concerned more self-interested and to like there were times I can remember when I would We would be at uh We'd be at some promo or something that I was doing and and my wife, you know There'd be girls there and I you know she would my wife would come over to say She's pretty attractive, right? You know, which is something my bpb girlfriend would she would have flipped out She would have that would have been the end of the night. She would have had this big public fight Yeah Can you hear me Yeah, okay. I just know you guys were still there But anyways, we would have this huge big public fight and uh, and so I was always worried about that That was kind of like my my stress disorder And so I would walk on eggshells with any of these girls and to the point where women would tell me Give me some shit. It's okay. You don't have to worry about it You know like they would notice that I was trying to be that I was naturally being a little bit more reserved If there were like other women around or if I was if I was concerned that what I said Might be taken out of context or it might be taken in in an offensive way and so You know, so I would I would watch my my language I would watch what I was saying and I wasn't really my my total being totally myself But that was a that was a sort of the the residue I guess or the sort of the consequences of me having been with her for so long The uh, if I could just jump in there the uh, we shouldn't underestimate the intensity of of this kind of trauma and I've had Combat veterans telling me that actually their relationship issues were worse were more damaging one guy said at least in a in a combat situation A firefight I know who the enemy is and there is this sense of like you're living with somebody who's supposed to be a Source of love and support you take your armor off to come home And that's when they start jabbing you up with the with the poison knives The the damage that it does that cpt sd does Is it actually can change the uh shape of the brain and the capacity of the brain to process information? They've done research now and it's conclusive Um a long-term stress Even if it's only slow drip little moments of social anxiety again and again and again It actually shrinks the uh volume capacity of the hippocampus in the brain It can grow back it can it can with good therapy with good talk therapy. It can come back But that hippocampus we're all talking about memory spots and things that we don't remember The hippocampus that we think is related to accessing memory and assigning appropriate emotion to memories So the fact that I've got stories I won't go into it now because we will just be going backwards and forwards with stories of Thinking I'd gone insane because I had diary entries that I didn't remember writing I was like who the fuck wrote this but it was the effect of being in a relationship It's actually your brain has changed shape It uh in sort of it's under such bombardment from the stress and the adrenaline that you're living under the hippocampus shrinks And you can no longer access memories in a way that is uh effective and appropriate anymore So the the the intensity of this trauma absolutely like Carl was saying it can knock you out It can it can have you totally dissociating because you just can't cope with how goddamn awful it is Yeah, most of it's non-physical. So it's not even taken seriously That's one of the things I pointed out in my talk that people got really pissed off about But yeah, I 100% agree with you that you can't underestimate the intensity Well, and the reason they got pissed off at you is because even just us having this discussion or even in this show Prior to this is if you if you even Bring this up you're less of a man You know, I mean because it's like sort of like that you you think you're a victim You know and you can't ever believe that you've been a victim of any of anything And you know, I'll tell you right now. I wasn't a victim But I was certainly Compliant and I was certainly an active participant in my own you know my own shit You're a target too. Yeah, I was a target as well But I think that a lot at like whenever and you got shit for this too Anthony is like when when you did the video about medusa Uh, what was the first thing people said they were like, oh, well, you're just doing this because you're you still haven't got over her You're still bitter or you're And so so what happens is that discourages guys from even talking about it or even having discussions Like the one we're having right now and so we can warn guys from this and it I don't know I think that's kind of unfair because I think a lot of people don't believe That you can get ptsd from different sources I think they say, okay ptsd is just what those veterans get whatever they get shot at and they don't understand I mean just for us to say, you know, I have ptsd because so of a of a bpd woman People are gonna say, oh, well, you just you need a man up. You just didn't toughen up enough for you Know, there's something wrong with you. You know, get over it you pussy It wouldn't usually be veterans that the ones that I've spoken to they're very very open to it And they're very very open to understanding the roots of the psychological problems. It's it's keyboard warriors Like veterans who've seen their friends descend into alcoholism And you know, one of the reasons for me wanting to be here and chat to you guys and be more involved with 21 studios It's to stop guys from killing themselves because they're isolated They can't process this shit and eventually they just go there's no way out. I'm in pain. I may as well be dead I've got to stop that. That's that's not okay And the the the combat the combat veterans that I've worked with They have it and then they see it in their mates and their mates won't come and talk to me They're not going to chat to some twat on youtube. They're not interested in it. So they just slowly slip away They they kill themselves quickly either hang themselves or they do it slow with drugs and alcohol And it you know, it's it's it's only the the the fucking paper tigers and the keyboard warriors You'll be given it. Oh, yeah, you need to man up. Who are these people? They've never been anywhere They've never done anything because if they had they'd know how the shit gets in your head and once it's in It's hard to get out really Ruthless, you know, I've never talked to anyone that has been through this kind of relationship Who dismisses it like literally not one person's like, oh, it's no big deal Yeah, no, like it's yes serious and I want to mention too that on roller's thing that Right after that I gave the speech physically like stole the convention still running the damn thing One of the speakers at that point pulled me aside. He's like, man, like you're really angry And my response was yeah, of course. I'm fucking angry. Look at what happens Like being angry is a pretty normal response And I didn't quite understand intellectually like I understand a little better now But that was a healthy expression of anger like yeah, I was fucking angry. Look at what happened. Fuck this bitch Which people shame you for like but uh, you know roles talk a lot about it too But you know venting anger, it's healthy and it's even masculine in a sense, too There's there's no work I've ever done with anybody that's been of any use that didn't lead them to grief and anger That's the first thing I say to people like you're gonna It's I'm gonna say it's that anger that scares women for about the man a sphere and it scares women about the red pill Because they think that it's just a bunch of angry dudes coming together and talking and bitching and moaning and complaining about You know, I've got PTSD and what they don't see is that that is just a phase That is just something that we move through or we move on through But I I understand why people think that because that's exactly what what anthony had gone through But that's just one aspect too because there's other aspects that people can they want to see that They want to think that the only reason you're saying any of this is because you're angry and you're bitter and who hurt you You know, and it's like, you know, yeah There's a lot more to it than just that but I think that that is Kind of like this failsafe if people want to dismiss your the truth about what you're saying They're gonna say man almost don't listen to him. He's just angry. He'll get over it Like I'm really right. He's just angry and wrong, but he'll come to my way Sean I know you have to go soon. Can you hop in a little bit with some closing thoughts from your experience? Yeah, as far as what guys can do after coming out of this kind of relationship, you know Again, I come back to community You can't recover from alcohol very effectively without community You can't recover from much of any kind of addiction or that sort of problem without community And the great thing about this red pill community is that there's there's a whole variety of guys out there That can meet you where you're at And give you get you back to a sense of reality because these relationships are so disorienting and richard's absolutely right They can be a source of complex ptsz where It just shapes the way you organize the world and and You're not seeing the world the way it is. You're under the influence of these past relationships So you know reach out to the guys around you and build those relationships Oh, yeah Yeah, my own experience confirmed that too. One of the things I did immediately was gravitate to old friendships That I hadn't maintained too well because of distance. They all lived in Orlando I was south of sport a couple hundred miles away and even just being our old friends Independent of any kind of conversation was really helpful the physical like face-to-face contact the mammalian brain Yeah, so we had a lot of questions too guys actually come in more than I've ever seen to be honest Yeah, we usually get like a few over text, but this is fucking crazy I want to throw in one more thing to kind of build on what Rich was saying there because one thing is the complex ptsd and the Various things that are subconscious, but one of the things I found when I analyzed my own notes is that Uh, they're dbd women especially are very good at behavioral conditioning because they will Slowly I read bf skinner after I got out of this relationship And it's kind of the same thing that they do with in the relationship because you learn that okay I have to have blinders on because if I don't I get a massive reaction That happens three or four times you adapt your behavior and this is how it works. You either get a reward That you so you act the way they want to or you get a massive punishment To get you to not do something so they will slowly condition you into behaving So they will shape your personality the longer that they are with you And unlearning those behaviors are going to be an important part of your recovery It's also a crazy person manipulating or modifying your personality, but it's crazy making behavior. Is that the call it? Yeah, um, carl. I'd never really connected that dot before but yeah, you're right and Little children are also very good at operant conditioning and training their parents and more often than not you see Children training their parents rather than the other way around and I guess one of the tasks of maturing is to Get beyond that operant conditioning way of dealing with the world I think the way it works effectively with children is they are a lot like borderline women because Borderline women and nurses they never really got past being about 12 13 years old in their fucking head So what happens is they act like little children and you cannot reason with a screaming child in the cereal aisle So the parents will do what the child wants to get the child to shut the hell up And then they will just keep doing that because we tend to do what's easiest for us And you know instead of having a knockout drag on fight with a borderline girl I have to be allowed to say thank you to the checkout girl I cannot tell her to thank you Give me my change now, please. Fuck off. You can't do that. So you get a constant double bind or catch 22s where you You get so confused. You don't know what to do Fucking shake Well, you know back in the day it used to be acceptable to smack a child in the cereal aisle It's not really anymore and you know smack a woman in public regardless of what she that woman can pull a gun on you in public If you talk sure to take the gun away, you'll have 18 guys coming around the corner. Hey get your hands off her, bro Richard welcome back. That's some uh tech tech issues there Let's take let's take some calls or some questions. Yeah So we already guys before you before you do that. I'm gonna sign off. I gotta hit the road So okay great being with you guys as always Recommendations by the way. Yeah Yeah, we'll talk to you again. Thanks So one of the questions we got uh, we've already touched on a little bit But I think we can do it a little more concisely and that way people watching later can be like bam there it is So the question is rmg Can you talk about how to safely extract yourself from a bpd situation and avoid a lash back like rape accusation false domestic violence stuff like that Should you leave gradually or all at once our bpd is likely to lash back when you leave You want me to go on this one? I would I would say um I'm gonna say all at once I'm I'm the you know rip the band aid off all at one time because The longer you linger in that the more time she has to sort of massage you back into that cycle that I was talking about before So first thing is is you need to be able to identify it You need to say okay this chick there is something seriously wrong with this girl and you need to be able to See the signs and what's going on around you First off is like is she isolating you? Have you like given up shit that you that you really love to do? I mean, have you given up hobbies? Have you given up passions? Have you given up ambitions? Just to you know, try to make things good is your relationship defined by Trying to avoid a fight Is your is your relationship defined by trying to satisfy this woman who's never going to be satisfied? First of all as a blue pill ideal, but second of all it's like there's there's guys who get into a blue Blue pill guys who get into this mentality where they have to You know, they they're constantly qualifying to a girl, but that doesn't necessarily mean that girl is is borderline But is your entire Reload your life and your relationship is that? You know centered on trying to make her happy or trying to avoid her You know going flying off the handle and starting some super public fight I mean, can you even go in public places without the the warrior the concern that she's going to she's going to explode That's another thing so it's it's like seeing these signs and then You have to want to see those signs because I think a lot of guys that get into this at least I know very few Very few red pill aware guys who would Who wouldn't you know, who would get into something like this in the first place like they would they would not Uh, they would see it coming and maybe they'd have a you know They she was good for a you know good for a lay now and then and then they would get out It is the guys who are blue pill who get trapped in this I think in every single instance I have talked to a guy who has been in a borderline personality disorder relationship The guy has been blue pill and the guy has been or you know been very beta very very passive one of these You know people pleasers very appease appeasing And uh, you know very agreeable, you know that kind of shit um Those are the guys that have to sort of come to terms with the fact that they need to make themselves their mental point of Origin and then once they do that, how do you get out of that? Uh, I'm gonna say, you know do it all at once like plan your escape and do it and commit to it and don't Don't go. Well, maybe if if she does this then I'll I'll reconsider. No, there's no reconsidering One reason I tell guys is that you know the guys really want to tell me they What's so crazy about and they're so fun and they're and you know, and you know, they're bpd Yeah, they're nuts, but but uh, they're really, you know for for a one night stand or for a sexual Experience, they're great. No, they are not great Get the fuck out because there's too much at risk I mean these are the kind of chicks that like if a pickup artist came up to them and had a one night stand These are the these are the girls who would like love it in the moment and be very active and hot for the sex And then the next morning when they realized that the the host isn't going to stick around Those are the ones that are going to say oh, he raped me, you know He he's uh, it was sexual misconduct or it was against I didn't give him consent And that those are the ones that are going to do shit like that So Don't think that you're just going to hit it and quit it with it with a bpd If you know that she's a bpd then get the fuck out as quick as you can Reconnect with your friends like like Sean was saying reconnect with your friends Reconnect with the with the stuff that you used to love and focus on that Because you need to find a refocus because you've probably been living in this relationship that has been You know like centered on her where you've given up all this stuff But the your your attention, you know, you wake up in the morning and you're thinking Okay, what am I going to do to make this bitch happy, you know, and you're going to keep Looking into that and keep You know trying to find that that cure and that becomes your hobby that becomes your passion That becomes all the things that you used to do all that shit The the energy that you use to use for your ambitions and and your passions and stuff All of that gets re-channeled to trying to make trying to figure her out trying to figure out the equation That's going to make her happy and so when you get out of that you don't really Know what to do with yourself because you don't have that burden anymore It's been lifted off of you might think well, that's a relief. Yeah, it's a relief But you still got to find some way to Focus on something else and find a new a new passion and a new direction for all of that energy because if you don't you're going to Funnel it back to her towards her. So you've got to you've got to preoccupy yourself with something else So I wanted to add here just from an experience like what I did that I don't think I've shared before publicly So I did try to do it all once and I got pretty close I moved out we lived together we co-operated in a house down in southwest Florida. We made Medusa I moved out within a matter of days across the state and I got most of my things But there were a few big things I left at the house a workout machine that I'd gotten from through the convention Bed, you know a big furniture shit like that and I was like I need to get this shit at some point and she knew that So what I ended up doing was going full Machiavellian totally like a fawning response So kind of teasing that I would get back with her Which she was still hoovering like fighting for to get me back to you know down to that part of Florida Because at that point I had moved temporarily in Socrates up in Orlando So I went full Machiavellian Which was uh one of the first times in their relationship where I really did that And it wasn't malicious intent, but it was full intent to protect myself protect my things Get that shit and completely fake her out, which I thought was the safest thing at that point In addition to that I also looked up at the time the laws in my state regarding statute limitations for accusation false accusations rape accusations domestic violence accusations stuff like that So through the manusphere at least I didn't have where with all or awareness to actually research that And then formally kind of a short-term game plan to get to the house get my stuff when she wasn't there And then make you know figure out when she can use all these uh, I mean use Machiavellian behavior to do that So I guess you call it fighting fire with fire And uh, I didn't have a huge awareness of it, but I had enough skill with it to pull it off And she would to uh, it's kind of put a final point to that She was absolutely stunned that I that I did that at that point But that was me exiting the relationship and knowing full while like Rilla was talking about That this is never ever going to work out. I need to get the fuck away Which I felt at a gut level and I had people like soccer teams telling me you're out get out get out So I did have enough people around me to keep me away from that And it worked out pretty well She never ended up accusing me of false rape or false domestic violence And it got all my things and the only thing left of the house was a ceiling fan That I was just too exhausted depressed and fucked up about to even try to get off the ceiling Everything but the ceiling fan So I don't know if I can answer this again, but uh, we can move on to some other questions we have in text I got a super chat here real quick Okay Since rollo and my experience the shit tests start around being three weeks to three months into a relationship Then they flatten out. Can you explain why? I don't know if that really relates to what we're we're talking about here I'm gonna I'm gonna refer you to a post that I have it's called acing the test look that up on my I'll post a link to it in the chat here Let's let's go with something else. We need to stay on topic And we'll have to wrap up eventually too. I think it's been about we're getting we're getting close Yeah So a lot of the comments we got through the text were actually not questions but comments Let's see what else we can get here So this is kind of interesting, uh, this is I think he's relating this to bpds too So the question is what's the first thing to look for when a woman is using sex or sexual advances to cloud your judgment So I think he's asking like what's the first tip off that something's wrong When sex isn't involved and you're getting intimate rather than just the chicks in you Well, one of the things I dated a girl once she was an interesting cookie because she had Anxiety had a pretty bad anxiety disorder But she used sex as a coping mechanism and as a defense mechanism. So now that in varies I kind of got the training on spotting a woman who's using sex as a tool for something and what you want to look for is Is the situation similar but strange like When does the sex come because usually there's a certain predictability to it That's why pua the escalation ladder is actually work pretty well Is because it's a pattern of behavior leading up to sex But if it's just kind of random like she had a bad day at work You come home and she rips your clothes off or If suddenly you're in the you're you told her no and suddenly she wants sex You kind of want to keep it's like a used car salesman You always want to keep an eye out for what what are they doing in this moment leading up to the sex Because women are predictable, but Women who are doing it for an ulterior motive are Different like if your girl always brings up Something she wants to buy after you have sex with her. That's a pretty good sign God yeah Brian you doing up on this Just a recommendation then for guys. Dr. Cindy Miston has a great book why women have sex It's a good read and it really lays out a lot of these kind of motivations It's kind of 10 gentle to the bpd conversation here, but if you've got the spare time, it's definitely worth it Yes, something I wanted to kind of follow up with you there Ryan So my contribution in this answer Is I think the red pill is a very useful very useful tool for avoiding toxic relationships with cluster b's and otherwise So my mind that's where As like a major tool it's going to protect you from these kind of relationships Because any kind of manipulation or behavior you're in the lookout for if you're red pill aware enough It doesn't matter if she has a disorder or not the many you sense some things off, you know, your guard should go up Oh, yeah So and that so yeah, I think that's uh, I mean in my mind I call it the nuclear triad of protecting yourself with crazy bitches So you have you have a prior experience like most of us here on the panel have a lot of So you sense, you know, you sense it like I've been through this before going to fucking cancel that out another one is a red pill awareness So not just prior experience the red pill awareness in general and including an elect intellectual and game applied real life applied version of it And then the final one would be like someone who studies it professionally Whether this richard or rollo even school and then obviously shawn who's on earlier So I hope that answers the guys question Any else will happen with that? Yeah, I have I have something that might be useful. I don't want to Shouldn't take individual cases and generalize too much But in the two instances that the three instances where I was with a person Oh, I believe had proper personality disorder the sex was um was it was It happened in a slightly odd way They were ultra submissive and made a point of sort of saying You can do whatever you want to me the first time So they were kind of presented themselves to me as kind of sex dolls almost and that was consistent In all three cases on the first sort of available instance where it was conveniently possible Instantly they went to that level And I think looking back that they did that because a narcissistic personality a cluster B personality Will try and gauge what they think you want and give you that And I think they looked at me and thought that's what I wanted But I was like in all three cases. I was like that's actually a bit of a turnoff It was it was it was very odd. I don't know if anybody else had any experience with that. I kind of a Oh, yeah Robotic now you can do whatever the fuck you want to me and I'm like it's date number one love Well, they have they have no they have no boundaries Or at least in that kind of taking all the bad whatever boundaries they have of taking off Yeah, the flexibility is amped like everything else they do Yeah, they give up a no and they don't want anything and there's no alternative motive for them to do so be suspicious Yep, it's too good to be true. It probably is Yep Yeah, so we have some more trying to get some more comments in here Yeah, these are mostly comments. They're not too detailed of questions Well, they're not even on topic though All right We can get a super chat here. My vpdx dragged our son Six years old across two room and threw him on his bedroom floor. She called me and made it out There our son had attacked her. How can we protect our kids? They have the courts on their side Document that shit Yeah, you want to document everything because uh history of emergency room visits with a child They're going to assume it's the dad who's being the Abuser so you want to document where you were when that happened. So no, I was across Country I was in another city. I was at work. Here's my time card anything you can document everything You can also put up hidden cameras in your house. I've heard of some guys have done that but Well, you know at this point someone should start Marketing body cams as part of the v2 movement. I mean, that would be a great Entry product me two cams Yeah But it's just one of those things you want everything documented That's in the court of law if it's word Against word the courts are going to side with the woman But if you have video you have written documents you have everything documented and down They can't ignore that if they if you can point to well here are six times I wasn't even in town and our child was taken through the emergency room Then you have evidence Or a protective service a police report medical like all that stuff adds up Well, you know and we're presuming that a person in this situation is going to be rational enough to see that because remember We're talking about a person who's probably the host for this parasite And is going to want to you know make excuses for that person You know for throwing your kids around first of all if you're in a if you're in a bpb relationship with somebody that you're married to And you know that they're bpb That's your fucking wake-up call right there. You need to get the fuck out document what you can and these guys are right because if In divorce proceedings the guy i've seen guys who have been the most passive most innocent most you know church going guys who you would never Dream would be in any way, you know emotional or even You know certainly not abusive it is it is the The woman's Attorney's job is to turn you into a monster and to try to find ways to make you look like you are You know not who you present yourself to be and we're more willing to believe that of men than we are of women And that's why it's very important to have that you know that evidence So we had a good question in the chat here it's from daga venator Question is how do you help someone who grew up in a bad family environment to recognize these issues in Narcissistic and bpd women when that's all they've known since childhood I mean the red pill is my first thought like as a baseline to even understand, you know Culture the world society nations and then obviously dating and uh, you know face-to-face contact with women interacting dating and stuff I think wait we talked about this Uh a couple weeks. I think me and rich we're talking about this not too long It's very difficult to unplug guys first of all Second of all it's it's it's almost more. I think difficult for a guy who is a guy's family uh, particularly if you're in bpd because most Most of the time part of that bpd Plan is to isolate you to make you it's almost like gaslighting in a way that they're trying to make you think that your parents are against you Your brothers against you your friends are against your they just she you know, he just doesn't like me or You know that kind of stuff and it's really a part of of isolating you And so these guys are usually isolated to begin with so Be prepared for something like that be prepared for that the fact that your friend or your brother or whoever you're trying to unplug I mean unplugging guys from the matrix is difficult enough work with unplugging a guy from a bpd relationship And trying to get him to be red pill aware is a really tall order So be prepared for a lot of anger be prepared for a lot of You know you probably get cut off and and all likely you'll probably just cut you off out of his life as well And his bpd girlfriend will be right there and say yeah, you should cut him off, you know So I've seen this happen a few times now since my relationship in medusa Understand that if you're trying to do that you Understand what you're up against you're up against this guy who has been gaslighted and you're also up against The woman who really won't be who's going to give him sex as a reward for blowing you off So remember in fact, I I can remember times where I had friends of mine who long long term friends of mine Who would try to tell me there was something wrong with this chick or they would they would you know We would a few times we would be out socially She would not like them. She's like I don't like that guy He just he just gives me the creeps. She doesn't like me the right and it's like guys who see through that and they say I know what you are. I know I know exactly, you know the kind of kind of woman that you are I know that your bpd whatever And when the jig is up or when somebody outside the relationship understands what's going on You can expect that she's going to try to find some way to to Disqualify you or isolate her victim from you So remember remember you're going to be not fighting him You're going to be fighting her and you're going to be fighting her Through him as a proxy. So the stuff that he's saying is not necessarily, you know, him and his right mind. It's him Repeating what he thinks his bpd woman wants him to say because that's what he's going to be rewarded for So so bear that in mind. So what what can you do? Uh, I would say the same thing you would do any with any other red pill guys And unfortunately you're gonna have to wait until this guy is in some sort of trauma You're gonna have to wait until it gets so fucking bad that the guy is willing to listen because I'll tell you what man When I was with mine, you couldn't tell me shit. My brother my younger brother tried to tell me you tried to Say you knew you need to get out of this. This is fucking bad for you And here I am crying over it and going no, she's really good If I could just find some way to get her, you know come around blah blah You know and then when when the people who care about you give up on you That's when you're truly fucked because like I said before it's up to that guy to To really get himself out of that situation But if you are bound and determined to try to get a guy out of that Just go in with the full knowledge and knowing what you're up against. You're not fighting him. You're fighting her Carl the childhood point is kind of important too and the best analogy that I've ever stolen on the issue Is that growing up in a dysfunctional environment is like being raised with earphones earmuffs on because Normal people they will drop out when the volume gets to four But since you've been raised that you know a seven your tolerance might be 13 or something Before you get out like if your mother is dpd or narcissistic, especially for men They tend to raise two types of sons. They either raise narcissists or co-dependence And a lot of the guys I see getting into these relationships and struggling to get out of them They're guys that have been caretaking their dpd mother their whole life So their girlfriend is basically their mother and they're like, okay, I know how to deal with her I've been dealing with her and their mother has shaped them into this perfect little caretaker for a girl with serious dpd issues and they will rather Sacrifice their life for her then realize that okay. This is not good for me. It's what they've been doing their whole life It's what they've been trying to do and There's very little you can do with them a guy who's had experiences before in good relationships and has a solid family Etc. We'll be able to rely on them But in this case you can get triangulated between your bpd mother and your bpd girlfriend And if you're really unlucky, you'll have a narcissist as a dad too And then you're basically have three crazy people who are fighting you and fighting each other because they don't share well So if you have a bpd mother and a bpd girlfriend They will fight tooth and nail to have all your attention So they will fight each other, but they'll vote tag team you in order to Keep you in that vulnerable position Well, I got this one. I think rich will take this. Um, I got this one question says Is alcoholism a sign of bpd? And by the way, thank you for that big 20 super chat Rich Is alcoholism part of it? I I'm gonna say yes. Um, it just depends on the chick The girl that I was with was not necessarily an alcoholic, but uh, I could certainly see how that would be part of it Uh, as far as I'm aware, it's it is typically associated with with borderline. I could say, um What do you call it anecdotally? I've noticed that uh, a direct correlation There's something in alcohol as both a disinhibitor Um an anesthetic and uh, sort of having its barbiturate effects But I think when somebody has very very spiking Uh emotional responses to everything it provides them with a degree of relief In the earlier phases of drunkenness and I probably shouldn't be saying this publicly because Just don't take this the wrong way. It's anecdotal. I have noticed that some borderlines Actually improve I suspect but I can't say for certain this is because what drives borderline personality disorder and what drives anastasm Is a deeply inflamed super ego and the alcohol actually switches that off So they ceases to be they cease to be as critical of themselves And they cease to be as as critical and punishing and obnoxious to other people Obviously then once they've got passed out of that sweet spot with the alcohol They'll just become even more emotionally dysregulated than they were before and it'll be worse Uh, but yeah, I've seen a definite correlation, especially with male borderlines For alcohol being their drug of choice Well, there's also a thing with uh, I just put this in chat, but substance abuse is very common with the entire cluster b Area, it's very common with most mental disorder because a lot of people will self medicate with various substances That's why a lot of people who get off drugs end up becoming addicted to working out because it's the same kind of rush But it's less destructive Ryan did we have a question from one of the chatters to uh, modern life dating or something like that? Yeah, he was asking about the reciprocal how you get your mom out of a situation where she's with a bpd man So it's out of my wheelhouse. I don't really have an answer for that. I'm not sure how to deal with men in a dating Yeah, I don't either Well, I I do know that there is such a thing as a diagnosis for guys who are bpd now I I'm wondering if I'm wondering if that's even accurate because I think that guys probably I think it depends on on the guy, but If the guy's bpd, I would presume that he's probably follows along the same the same path as a woman But remember you're you're dealing with a guy. I doubt there's very many beta Bpd guys, I think it sort of feeds into that egotism and we don't really see Uh, why we don't really call it a borderline personality disorder within a guy because Most of the time women aren't willing to put up with that unless they are you know from a An abusive relationship from abusive family or something and they're looking for a guy who is exactly like that The incidence of bpd is far lower in men than it is in women. That's the first thing Which is actually one of the reasons why a lot of people question whether or not bpd is actually accurate It's just like, you know, women are just like varying levels of crazy and you guys just happen to go with some super crazy ones Well, when it comes to guys, I mean, they're still willing to to to throw it out there that guys can suffer from bpd But I think that we we're less inclined to see them as borderline personality disorder and more like Oh, you're just being a typical guy or you're just this macavelian dude Or you're just this this super domineering guy who has to have everything this way And uh, you're an abusive asshole, dude Well, I'm I'm I'm wondering if if because I haven't seen any studies But I'm wondering if there are studies out there that have compared the differences between just a guy who is an out and out You know abusive son of a bitch and then the guys who are borderline personality disorder Because I think that the things that a guy who would be bpd would do Would be most women would be very Unlikely to tolerate unless they themselves have some sort of personal damage Well, it depends probably a good look in the guys too. I mean, uh, yeah, I mean shit Richard you want to happen on this? Yeah, I didn't I wasn't actually going to say but frequently guys who've been diagnosed bpd are pretty And you might very well find that he's he's younger than her and prettier than her. In fact, I'd put money on it Um, and probably what's happening is he's got the bpd diagnosis because he's a narcissist But he's very vulnerable and he's very shy and he's capable of saying sorry and he's addicted to his own victim hood And he really wants a lot of sympathy um So apparently he's a oh, okay. He's he's a manipulator and he's in his fifties. Okay, so if he's 60 so I'm going to get some clarification here. We need the age difference. It's important What we're always going with that was possibly that she might have a Like a sort of a caring or a mothering instinct that's being manipulated in her now that might be because of infringements between her mother and father She might feel guilty about the way her mother abused her father There's all kinds the this sounds this this woman that he's describing Is my typical client most of my clients would fall into that age group in this category of having like a Parasitical man latch on to them. They come to me saying oh, this person's a grandiose narcissist We have a conversation and a lot of times we find out actually this guy's probably vectoring in for Boardline personality disorder possibly overlapping with their psychopathy one thing I wanted to add is uh, I think Roland is a really good job in his blog and his work describing how Basically concepts of users or their placeholders They're placeholders for behaviors So bpd and pd all this stuff like it's useful to classify and organize the information At the end of the day, it's like the joint of our thing like what's danger and what's not So this kind of comes to mind. It's like, you know, what is the guy's he's psychopath? He's bpd. Is he just a manipulative fucking asshole? Yeah, I mean these these words are all just placeholders for how we try to organize behaviors alpha We should probably do we should do a whole show on how These terms are like abstractions because everybody wants to define what alpha is but every, you know, it's it's funny How alpha is really ambiguous and it's like some sort of nebulous idea for what a guy should or shouldn't be But everybody knows what a beta is Everybody knows the blue pill is everybody that's that's not that's not hard But the thing is is like that's still an abstract term The alpha is being deliberately misconstrued though because the woman or the feminine paradise trying to undermine right Yeah, that too. And then guys tend to like to define things for themselves In the best light that they possibly can so if a guy Whatever those guys are personally that's alpha Um, but I mean we could we could do a whole show about that But I I do see what you're saying though. It's like I think that a lot of the a lot of these sort of Disordered du jour topics like in the manifesto we we we tend to Fall back on either borderline personality disorder for for women and uh asperger syndrome or autism for men And maybe those guys don't actually have autism or asperger's syndrome They are just very socially unintelligent and that's just how they are and they need to get some You know, they need to start learning to socialize a little bit better But it's easier to just say oh, I've got asperger syndrome. So I give up Yeah, because then it's not your fault. Yeah It's the gene I think we tend to attract a certain type of guy I've actually been writing an essay about this because a lot of the guys that at least come to my blog are very Engineer-minded men They're like they want an answer. They want a definitive answer and they want a model they can work from And that's why a lot of these guys get extremely good at game when they start applying it Especially mystery method type game because they will take something and they will apply it Like a mechanic until it works, but they have a very hard time with Things that aren't literal and abstract and absolute and that's kind of the problem And I was discussing this with I think ryan in dms on twitter the other night that Yeah, we have this model here where we put everything on the guy like the guy is Has hyperagency he can control everything and the woman is just there. She's an object and she's a hypoagent She has no influence, but most of the time A girl makes up her mind like you have girls that will play along with you the entire time And it's like the easiest pickup you've ever done and then you have girls You can sink hundreds of hours into and she will never sleep with you And the girl is an important piece here like you can display all these alpha behaviors, but it's not going It's not a lock that will always a key that will always work And that's one of the reasons I like reading Crouser because he's been very honest on the fact that he's probably one of the best day game guys in the world And he he still has a fairly low A success rate because it doesn't work on everyone and he's calibrated He has everything down and it's still not a cheat code. The guys want the Cheat code for picking up women and there really isn't one. There are too many variables Well, there are things to do that improves your odds, but then there are like what end these Nuclear opener is is really just qualifying immediately. Okay, is this chick Up for sleeping with me fast Will she play along with it or is she not so what he's doing is just he's filtering for one specific type of woman who responds to that opener And by doing that he makes the rest of his job a lot easier As opposed to using a more generic opener and using more time to potentially maybe he filters out a few women less But he ends up investing a lot more time in them So I think that's one of our issues here is that a lot of these guys they don't have asperger's and they're not interprets they're just Guys who tend to take things very Literally and will spend a whole day arguing with me over the definition of the term alpha on twitter as opposed to just Thinking go out go to the club one night and look for the guys who are obviously successful with women You just look at what they do Carl I wanted to I wanted to add this too as an addendum to my nuclear tender opener I want to come over your face and make you my girlfriend It's not only filtering for uh, you know sexual strategy like what what kind of woman do I want But it also filters for me a sense of humor If they don't have a sense of humor they take themselves so fucking seriously that they can't respond to that In any capacity that is instantly unmatched I genuinely don't want to be around them like they're just an asshole as far as i'm concerned or they're so uptight I don't even care to put in the effort to meet with them. Maybe we get one later One exception exists So that's that's kind of what comes to mind though the opener is like it has a few different filtering purposes And I think it's funny like it's genuinely amusing to me if it's not to them At least to the point that they're gonna try to get along with it for a minute think it the fuck out of here so That's the nuclear opener. I don't know Richard. I think it's heard there for the first time I it's my it's my I didn't even make it up. I stole it from some stupid Reddit troll post or something I'm stunned. It's it's it's beautiful. It's beautiful. I must try I must try dating again sometime I I remember sex very fondly and I really should try and have it again So I will try that line. It's the best. Carl's in the bandwagon now, so Ryan Ryan and roller married, but if they ever get back in the dating pool Come over your face and make him a girlfriend girlfriend. Yeah, I'll just analyze why that works Yep, we're all it's gonna write a chapter for my dick pic book the art of the dick pic. I'm hoping so A bonus chapter on her pyrogame, but we're all it's a must Guys, uh, we've been going for quite a while. I think it's probably about time. We start wrapping this up Josh, how many hours we've gone to two and a half 40 That's what we get for starting early. I'm looking at the clock. Oh, it's not that early of that But we started I said, yeah Well, I appreciate everybody coming on if you guys have any closing thoughts More than happy to hear them. Otherwise, I'll go through the kind of closing announcements I'm always just gonna say is that if anybody has any further questions about this You can always find me on my blog. You can find me on on twitter. I'm happy to answer questions there as well But I I posted I'll post it one more time before we close here But I've got a really great post called borderline personality disorder and I go into sort of the nuts and bolts of it there It's it's almost like I almost feel like I should be writing something a little bit more Expansive on this because so many people have so much, you know questions about this Yeah, we should we should have the guy that owns a female psychopaths.com. I hear he's a great Yeah, maybe we should start adding to that too. Yeah, but anyways I think that if guys hear this and you think that you're hopeless or you don't realize that you're even in a situation like this Start asking those hard questions and ask them of yourself and and then you know, see if the signs are there Again, I don't want to I don't want to make people think that, you know, if they're in a rough relationship That doesn't necessarily mean that that woman is bpd but look For the signs look for how she's manipulating you or how you are Responding to that and is does that cycle that I mentioned before does that cycle exist where you you Think as long as you just do something a little bit more Or you know in the future things are going to get better and they never get better In fact, sometimes they get worse you might want to start making a planning your exit Carl ryan richard any closing thoughts? I'm just going to add what I always add here that no sex is good enough that it's worth getting stabbed while you're brushing your teeth I actually would love I'd like that on a t-shirt, please I'll make it on t I'll make it for the convention today. We'll get going. We have a number of t-shirts there Yeah, I do worry. I know we say these things and the guys may understand what we're saying But when you're in that position, I have a feeling they're not gonna see it for what it is Yep So I really I really wish there was some magic word Get a guy to snap his it is dick in his head detached, but I hate to say it. I think this is one of those things you guys are just gonna have to learn the hard way Yep Yep, that was my experience man. I fucking I really had a very low awareness of this kind of sort of woman and I wouldn't actually mention too though. I thought you guys might find this interesting particularly richard Uh, my little sister, I think I got two sisters and the younger one Looking back on it now knowing her, you know for how long I heard my her entire life She shows very strong signs of bpd But it was a lot and it still is a lot lower functioning than medusa ever was I think there was a wide gap in iq between the two not to disparage my little sister that much We don't get obviously we don't get along we never have but that was my for from bad behavior and a woman A minute little behavior that was kind of like my My experience of it and it was not hard to understand and spot And I don't have a history dating woman like that as a result. I you know, I don't like it say the fuck away from it But when I ran it to medusa it was a very different version of that It was a much more covert much more honestly more intelligent and more more motivated Uh, I always give her credit like the intensity that she an effort she put into doing this Or for such a long period of time is remarkable. She didn't last two years. She lasted well over four Um, so I thought that was kind of interesting based on some of the comments and questions we got about Childhood and bpd and stuff. I got a version of it that I saw and understood but I didn't it didn't it didn't occur to me at you know, 22 that there is multiple versions of this And there's all kinds of articles I think I've seen on the red pill even discussing this like bpd and then they classified into wave and all this different stuff Which is interesting and I've seen that in real life even to this day Even being out dating that I'll suspect a girl has something going on and I'm like, this is a lot different though than what I've seen And I've seen a lot of this point Uh up close and even from far I don't know if Richard that uh, if you have any commentary on that to close out but came to mind Yeah, it makes me think um, and it's advice that I need to take as well is you know, be humble Just be humble like don't think that Don't think that you know every manifestation of the personality disorders and do not think Don't be like me. Don't think oh, I can handle it. No, you fucking can't they've been practicing this for a lifetime They'll they have no moral boundaries whatsoever. There is no depth that they won't stoop to there is no lie They won't tell you cannot Try and think that you're gonna get in the ring with them and box it out with them You're not you're gonna get flattened. So don't be humble Well said, I think I'll wrap up guys Everybody watching live. 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It's the best i've ever built and the best I think i'll ever have up to this point at the convention by far What we'll beat it next year in 2019 so I'll just be prepared for that Finally, uh make sure you check out female psychopaths.com. That's where i'm slowly organizing and collecting authors and articles and videos like this one Uh that will post there and post show notes and discussion things like that It's a website dedicated to understanding jaynor's personalities and women And i've invited richard rollo carl and others uh clinic shawn smith to be offers on the site And i think it's shaping up. Uh, it's going to shape up really well over time Uh with that said thanks for joining me gentlemen appreciate it Everyone go subscribe to their stuff on twitter and their websites and buy the books on amazon including the rational male gendernomics and uh, whatever book richard ends up getting out soon All right, i'ma sign off guys. We could stand privately everyone else. Peace. Thank you very much