 You're listening to food for thought a food-infolded podcast Maybe we can just start with a little bit about who you are Charles and explain your background for our audience Sure. Thanks a lot for for the invitation to speak about this topic. I'm very passionate about My name is Charles. I work for IDH the sustainable trade initiative That is an organization based in the Netherlands That is such as the name says focusing on sustainable trade And I work more specifically as program manager for beyond chocolate. And so that is the the Belgian sustainable chocolate initiative That brings together all stakeholders in the industry to to really move towards ambition ambitious targets in terms of sustainability My background was not in cocoa and chocolate for the whole of my career So I've worked for a couple of years in Belgium for WWF Working specifically on the on the topic of important deforestation Then I moved to fair trade in Belgium Where they pushed me into cocoa and chocolate which honestly was probably the best move in my career until now And that gave me the opportunity after a couple of years to move as program manager for beyond chocolate So yeah today what we're really going to discuss Charles is the problems with the cocoa industry today and what is being done about it Especially given your introduction and the project that you're working on I thought that it would be really good to have this discussion with you So just diving straight into it. I wanted to briefly talk about the history of cocoa Like how did we get here? What are some of the biggest problems that are happening within the cocoa industry? Or the chocolate industry for consumers that maybe aren't so familiar with cocoa No, I think it's it's a very vast question And there's a lot of different elements that we could bring here and and first of all let me start by being clear I'm not a historian But I'm passionate about the the topic of cocoa and and the work that needs to be done on Supply chains to be clear, and I think that is very well known there is definitely an emergency for the sector to to really move towards To what's better trade and trade that benefits the people and the planet. That's what we are talking about About today, but now how did we get there? I think maybe the the easy answer to this would be our addiction to chocolate And that started a long time ago actually Cocoa and chocolate appeared on the European continents already in the 1600s, so we're talking about a Couple of centuries ago, and so it came to Belgium That was under Spanish occupation And it came from from Latin America, and so that's when we we discovered Cocoa and hot chocolate and and they're a whole culture of chocolate actually Started developing and so I'm sure you know and and most of the audience will know that Belgium Likes to define itself as a chocolate country, you know, we have the biggest chocolate factory I think I can claim that Belgium invented the pralines also in Early of last century right in Brussels if you walk around in Brussels, you'll see that one out of two shops almost Figures speak, of course, but is is selling chocolate I think it's not so much a figure of speech. I've seen it around the Grand Place It's almost all chocolate and so we're very passionate about that and I think that that also through through the years There's a real craftsmanship that was developed and so there's really this culture of chocolate and I was Also educated in in a family where you know, we give chocolate to each other on special occasions Okay, you've got flowers, but the next one is flowers in chocolate, right? We do agree on that And so I think there's there's a big fascination for the product and thus also a big demand now what we haven't seen enough in the in the last Years and probably generations is having that same Love and respect in our in our culture of chocolate translated through the whole supply chain And so that results today in indeed In indeed a couple of important challenges in the sector and and here I must say also I prefer to to use the word challenges and not problems because to me chocolate is not a problem Actually, it's probably part of the solution and I think that if we can If we can really transform our supply chains and again Share the benefits of this product that everyone is so fascinated about I think we can really have a powerful tool for the good But then we need to to make sure that that indeed we create and support this transition So then what are some of the biggest challenges within the cocoa industry today? Definitely and and that's also the essence of of the beyond chocolate partnership Is that we have an agreement on on the big the big challenges or the big topics that we want to address? together as stakeholders in in this sector And there's actually I'll try to keep it simple because of course there's many things to talk about but I would I would raise four challenges and and probably in order of importance The first one is is the challenge of of poverty or even extreme poverty And so here with beyond chocolate The outspoken ambition is to to ensure that producers on the long term Can earn a living income? Living income is one that is sufficient to cover all your basic needs food education transport health, etc Today that gap between the actual level of income and what would be a living income? in in In the two biggest cocoa producing countries Côte d'Ivoire and Ghana is huge today according to several studies Producers earn less than one euro a day or even less than 70 cents a day Of course life is cheaper in Côte d'Ivoire, but let's be honest also with 70 cents a day There's not much room for investment. And so That to me is really the the biggest challenge that we face in this supply chain and and actually it's not much different from From other commodities that that you might also cover in in other stories Um But here again, I believe that we with chocolate we have a product that that can help to to make a real move forward So challenge one definitely breaking this poverty trap because the poverty trap to me Uh is at the root of all the other challenges that we have in cocoa and the two next ones Would be deforestation Uh and child labor deforestation if you if you look at the numbers and I don't want to become the statistician here, but If you look at at just google a couple of satellite maps There's there's been great work done by by a couple of NGOs to to see the impact on forests of our of our consumption patterns And there in again these two countries Côte d'Ivoire and Ghana They lost a huge part of their forest coverage and when I say huge I talk about more than 80 or 90 percent Since they're independence So it is important it is that important that today we actually need to start talking about reforestation And so I'm not saying it's all cocoa, but for those two countries cocoa definitely has been a driver of deforestation Child labor is another issue that is widely spread across agricultural commodities, but that that is also relevant In the cocoa sector, but here I I'd like to To to give you a quote that was given to me by By a cocoa producers in one of my first encounters with uh with a cocoa producers With a cocoa producer and he said in in in french estomac famer n'a pas d'oreille And so in in english it means that a hungry stomach doesn't have any ears And and that is Exactly what I mean with poverty is at a root and we need to be able to solve that if we want to to Really propose solutions that work on the other challenges Because the reality for for a cocoa household today is that it's it's a daily struggle to put food on the table and to put all your kids It's cool. Uh, and as long as that is a struggle, uh, there's little room For other actions and specifically actions that are linked to sustainability targets So we need to address that the fourth and last one would be transparency in the sector But that is also a more general Yeah, I mean, I think it was interesting. Um your point about well the fact that If you have a hungry stomach, it's very there's very little room for anything else Um, and it it was interesting because with food unfolded last week We had covered a fair trade campaign that I'm sure you're aware of charles And we had some of our community. They had asked us, you know, oh, well Is fair trade more sustainable for the environment? Like should I even buy this if it's shipped all the way from another continent? You know, because this has been on the forefront of many people's minds in terms of environmental sustainability Um, but it's a difficult conversation I remember engaging with uh, some of our followers and saying that but ultimately it's it's your decision. Uh, but um It's it's not one or the other necessarily and sometimes you have to bear in mind that In order to achieve environmental sustainability In the long term you also need to provide a financial sustainability But of course you also have well, you can't necessarily have financial sustainability if you don't have environmental sustainability But I think that's a very important point. Um, that maybe a lot of conscious consumers We tend to forget about No, and I do I I do agree and I understand attention and and I think that it's great that that this conversation is taking place And and just like you say Everyone should make his own choices especially if you're uh, I think it's already great to be conscious about it and to think about it and indeed You might decide that for you one one of the options of of Because here we're talking about reducing your environmental footprint One of the options might be to you know to focus strictly on on on local ingredients It's probably a huge challenge but It might be the best solution for some for some amongst us and and I think we We need to respect that on the other hand and and that's a bit of the point that I was making earlier um Trade is is really a powerful tool for development or a catalyst And I'm sure that that that we've all had these history lessons when we were kids Uh, where you know, we talked about the the golden era of this or that city, you know and and I remember very vividly the golden era of the the belgian city of bruce and that golden era actually is associated with With really good trade at that point And so there you see that trade is really through The history of mankind has been a tool for development Now the thing is we need to look at the quality of that development Is it the development that we want or not? But my point here would be Don't blame the tool But look at the results I guess maybe diving in more to because these are kind of the misconceptions I think that was actually in my next question Which was what are some misconceptions people might have about the cocoa industry and its challenges It's it's to me probably your most difficult question because I'm in it And and I know that I've I tend to To again to talk about this with a lot of Of my friends and family members So I think that the misconceptions I've probably tried to to manage them in my in my close circle But if I if I can pick one That that that comes back sometimes is That nothing is being done or that nothing has been done in the past I think if you look at at the cocoa industry Definitely in recent years It has been one of the most proactive Sectors I'm not speaking about impact and results. I'm I'm really talking about you know, unlocking investments developing programs trying new things Investing in research to better understand what what can be done And and what results can be achieved what cannot be done and what is needed and so here I think the The good thing with cocoa is that there is a lot of movement I think that the The the less good side of this is that Sometimes there's a there might be a lack of direction Because the challenges are so huge There is no simple solution to a complex problem And so there's still a lot to be discovered uncovered and a lot to be done before we can Really speak of a situation that is acceptable or ideal But there is already a lot of dynamism a lot of movement a lot of investments also And so I think that that this is really again at the essence of beyond chocolate What we aim to do is is really in belgium with this program bring all stakeholders together to you know To put all the pieces of the puzzle on the table so that we can Get a good look at it identify gaps see what works what doesn't work What are the conditions what are the conditions to To make some strategies work or fail. There's a lot that we need to learn and here What what is important would be on chocolate is that we try to do this in an inclusive way That was actually my next question Yeah, well, it is important because I think and and these are two You know two sentences that that that come back often if you if you read about coca or if you're interested in the sector you will see That no no actor alone can make the difference That's one and the second one that there is no silver bullet There is no simple solution and there is no one-size-fits-all And so taking these two these two points in consideration What we wanted to do with beyond chocolate is really You know start working as a convener and bringing all these Expertise and all these views and and all these points together. And so today in beyond chocolate you have actually Coalitions that are starting to to be created that that regroup You know the the traders with their retail with civil society organizations that decide to work directly together With with one or or more cooperatives to you know to try to level up our strategies our impact models With the ambition to deliver results again We're a proud belgium chocolate country, right? And here I like to just grab a quote from from spider-man But with great great chocolate comes great responsibility And and I think that this is really what the sector in belgium Um wants to do we we really want to uh, yeah to to To associate the the quality and reputation of belgium chocolate with sustainability And so we have high ambitions for that but are also realistic The challenges are rough and so there's a lot to be done But at the same time doesn't belgium also source most of its chocolate from for example, latin america where you know You have more niche kind of cocoa producers That kind of focuses more on like the quality of the way that it's grown There seems to be a difference in cocoa production and where it's sourced from Exactly and that's also something that is probably not not known too much. Um, but so um, the origins of cocoa are definitely in in latin america, uh, and um When you look at the market today, actually there's two Countries that produce two-third of the cocoa In terms of global volume and that's called diva and gana So not so close to latin america If you zoom out a little bit, you'll see that three-quarter of the cocoa that is produced globally comes from western africa in general So you add nigeria and liberia and cameroon there and there you have the big cocoa producers Uh, on this planet latin america still is an important, uh An important supplier of cocoa, but but indeed you can see big differences Both in in in the production as in the product, uh, the end product and indeed what you've experienced Is um, like you say, uh, is more niche and and where actually you you are in in a market segment Uh, where the the the tasting of cocoa and chocolate is much more close to winery And so indeed you can start associating different tastes and and that has to do of course on on on one hand with the bean And the the genetics of of your cocoa plant, uh, and of course the craftsmanship Uh, on the other side of uh, of the of the cocoa belt, uh, you've got west africa and there what you'll see, uh is Actually, it's another market segment what you have in west africa is the the big volumes as i've said um, and so that's a totally different market segment as um Actually, they respond to different needs When I look around and and and I invite everyone to do the same Just go through your supermarket and start listing all products where you can find a little bit of cocoa or chocolate You'll see a gigantic variety of products where there might be one or two percentages of of cocoa or chocolate in it Um, but so there's also a big demand on the market, uh today for cocoa that is not specifically investing in a specific quality or or type of type of taste, but Um, that's a segment and again, it's our addiction to cocoa It's a segment where you want to have big stable volumes that can guarantee that everyone has his Uh, his doses of chocolate from time to time And there what is important is again stability of volume and stability of taste Not so much the the quality part and so you'll see big differences in the production In west africa, uh, you'll have one or two varieties of cocoa When you go to latin america, I know of cooperatives where they are actually investing in seed banks to try to You know work on the conservation of cocoa genetics to be able to to you know to respond to the need of these niche markets Um, but that's also it comes back to the to the There's no one size fits all solution because there is no one cocoa market when we talk about chocolate We think about the chocolate tablets and maybe the pralines and and you know this craftsmanship The reality is that there's cocoa in a lot of products around us and that Maybe and and maybe that's something that we need to be more conscious about I think we don't even realize how much chocolate we have in our in our kitchens and supermarkets, but it's everywhere And again protein bars or something. It's not just chocolate bars. Yeah, and it's not necessarily bad Again, it can be a powerful tool for development and and if we manage to to develop that aspect I think we can can really create a strong movement on on that market segment as well I think maybe I'd like to elaborate a bit on the point there that it could could potentially be this tool to Kind of raise people out of poverty because I know we also had this conversation before But you know, there's been a lot of investment made over the last few decades and Has there really been much of a much of a change, you know for the people that are actually living in Ghana or Cotiva, you know, like Has it really done anything or are we kind of just dabbling around and You know, it just hasn't really helped at all No, it's it's um, it's important to bring nuance in in in the response To this question because there's indeed a lot that has been done And the reality is that some strategies or some projects might have better results than other Um Now also it is important to be very clear when we look at the the top line indicators That's come back to the challenges and let's look at income deforestation and rates of child labor These indicators cannot be turned to green right now I think we need to be very clear about that. Uh, the the evolution over the last decades has probably been Probably been negative. If you look at these indicators, deforestation has not stopped child labor and and specifically also with such With such a crisis as today We know that that that there's issues uh on on that challenge as well. And so If you look at at at the top line indicators, we're not where we would like to be of course Um As a society, I mean as a whole, uh, um, it's true for coco, but it's true for many other things Um now what I also want to say this doesn't mean that we need to throw everything away everything that has been done Uh, and so that's why I I really believe in in in this Constructivism or constructive approach. Let's bring everything together And have this discussion together Because we know that that that different actors have different parts of the response that need to be to be given And here I want to also include the governments Here we're lucky in belgium to have an investment from the belgium government in such an initiative That is also triggering companies to take action. Um, but we need to also develop ways to to support local governments, you know, uh to to also invest in sustainable development of Of their coco sectors. Let's be clear about this. Cocoa is an important economic facet Of codivo and gala. Uh, it is uh, it is a particularly important commodity to generate their incomes and the incomes that that this sector Can generate for these two countries Can then be reinvested In its people that's of course the ideal situation But that that is the reason why I believe that we need to be able to put everyone at the table so that we can Empower every actor in his own function to take this extra action because we need extra action. That is clear Yeah, I I do see your point there and I do know that um, like I think it was a few months ago Or at least I've seen an article about uh, codivo the government Had made it a minimum premium that needs to be paid on top of all the cocoa that's purchased from its producers Um, and I think that's a great initiative and it's like this is exactly the kinds of initiatives that we need from government But at the same time if that's not followed Through by, you know companies big companies that are purchasing this cocoa, um from these regions You know, you see for example with fair trade. I know that they had increased their minimum price Um by a little bit, you know, the the farmers had felt look, this isn't enough for us We really need a higher minimum price and they had an 11 drop in volume sales, you know, and I think of course it's complicated, especially with trade and product and profit and profit margins and It's it's difficult but at the same time This is maybe maybe more of a personal opinion than anything that I do think that Um, certain actors also do need to step up, you know and really commit Um, especially and I think this is actually adding to your point of anything because if the government does this But then the companies don't follow through with supporting that then in the end It doesn't actually help raise up everybody and all the actors involved in that cocoa supply chain Um, but it's just there's this sense and I think many consumers also Perhaps feel it because many of our followers have also mentioned. Well, it's not just greenwashing You know, are these companies really concerned about child exploitation? Are they really concerned about deforestation or is it just kind of something nice a little label that they they put on You know, they're packaging or are they actually trying to do anything and change things because The general sense is that, you know, when you see an 11 drop in Sales because the minimum price has increased It feels as if well, then these companies aren't really committing, you know, and That it feels as if the profit is, uh, taking precedence over, um, You know More I guess no, I understand. I understand your Definitely, I understand your point and and and And this discussion and and there's a lot there's a lot of of elements in there that are true and here again I think that's why we want to bring everything everyone at the table and not only companies and governments I think for example civil society actors have a have an important role to to play in there I would like also to bring in, uh, producers and producer organizations because Uh in in ha, let's say producers are entrepreneurs. Uh, they're not so much different from From entrepreneurs on in other countries in the world They they want to they have a business and they want their business to succeed to be able to invest in their kids Very logical. There's nothing nothing much different about that Between a cocoa producer and me for example Um, uh, except that probably the the cocoa producer will be more creative in in in, you know, uh reshaping its business model to to make sure that That that he gets the best out of it, even if the best is is far from sufficient, uh, today So we need to bring, uh, we need to bring everyone into this story. Um, but here also, um, I think it's it's also today very easy to become cynical and and I need to admit also, I have my cynical moments and and and You know, it helps to To identify critical points also, but it doesn't help to move forward. Um, cynicism Doesn't do that. It has great value and I love it, but it doesn't help to move forward and so Here I'd like to challenge the idea a bit that, uh, that the companies are, uh, you know, stepping back because of and Because of a small increase in price. Um, that is the case, but maybe as consumers We have a role in there to play as well. Maybe they are stepping back because consume because Because consumers are not willing to or because companies believe consumers are not willing to Uh, to move together with them it's just more complicated than that also in in it's, um Coco in particular is a very very competitive market. And so here also the reality Um, is that, you know, taking a huge step in terms of of sustainability generally comes with a cost, right? Yeah The thing is that as a company if you want to survive in in the economic models that we have today You need to be able to to you know, to have an economic model that is viable And here in a highly competitive market It's very difficult to take a giant leap forward If you don't have the confidence that your competitors will not take a step back Because if they do you you are actually pricing yourself out of the market. And so here again, uh, this is to me um A very valid reason to try to to create that famous level playing field that that that is that is a buzzword now But that level playing field actually to say it in in a very simplistic way should allow to you know At the same time raise the floor and raise the ceiling You know creating a zone where actually the champions that want to take steps forward are unable to do so Also because they have the assurance that their competitors cannot lower the bar on the other hand And so there you can try to create this positive movement That step by step moves toward our ambition, but to do that we need to be in this together Do you feel um for everybody that you've kind of been in contact with charles that There has been an overall sense that we really do want to actually change things because I think that You see something that perhaps a lot of consumers don't normally see you know You interact with stakeholders that are within the cocoa industry and I don't know. I think because there's this disconnect for consumers also to um This chain. I think that it's It would be interesting to hear your perspective on as somebody who has interacted with all these stakeholders Whether you really feel that there's this sense that you know, there is change coming like people are really trying to work together to find solutions I think so I'm Today I'm blessed would be on chocolate to have this this partnership where stakeholders are active They are participating in in in meetings sharing experiences Developing new projects and new approaches testing new approaches to see if they can innovate also to To trigger more results. So I I'm indeed I'm blessed with an an active group of stakeholders And actually that already, you know Triggers dynamism on the market with new products appearing on the shelves in belgium that that indeed raised the bar and and and aim at at you know Delivering much more impact for cocoa producers and for for for environment. So definitely there is there is movement And and and we need to we need to be able to support that and so so it's important to To see that as well now I understand That this might not not be visible yet. Also, it's it's This new dynamism on the belgium market is relatively young, but it is strong And so so I am confident that that we are moving That we are moving in in in any sense Now I'd like also to to maybe you know Turn the thing around turn your question around And I'm I'm pretty sure that you will find very little people that are ready to commit to sell or buy a product That is actually supporting child labor or deforestation I I have never met someone that that is actually openly supportive of of having having you know a product that that that breaks that that that actually Is an infraction to human rights or environmental rights. So that is also true and what I see In in in a wide variety of stakeholders around me is that there's there's indeed an acceptance of the of the urgency and acceptance of the need To implement new strategies and and to be bold Also, I think there's acceptance that we don't know enough right now And definitely that that we need smart mixes of interventions just intervening on on one or another aspect Will never be sufficient. And so This discussion is is going much more into detail in the last in the last years And I think that's a very good sign. So my hope Is that with the work that can be done on coco and on this lovely project that chocolate is is that we can Hopefully, you know start sharing learnings also with other sectors and other commodities because The challenges are of course not limited to coco definitely And actually I was just wanted to go back to your point about like coco really being this commodity that could help kind of Not be the solution to issues, but be part of the change to bring and uplift These people out of poverty Because one one I do remember a comment I'm just bringing this up because it's so fresh from our fair trade instagram campaign Last week, but one of our followers had also mentioned. Well, you know The problem is that a lot of these farmers don't know the true value of what there it is that they're producing And do you think that that's actually the case because I think that Um, perhaps Again, we sometimes kind of picture these producers and farmers as maybe like, uh, they'll they actually don't know Um, how much their coco is really worth because maybe they've never even tasted chocolate They don't see how much the world loves chocolate or like in the west or something like that, but I think that I don't know from the sounds of it that might actually be maybe more ignorant. Um to to believe that because it sounds like These producers actually know much more than what we think that they actually know Um, I'm happy you say that. No, I'm happy you say that because, um, you know, I think We need we need to to also look at ourselves Indeed, uh in in all sectors not only in commercial sectors, but also Uh in the nonprofit where I where I've worked for the for the whole of my my life now, right? Um, but indeed that might be a good misconception to to list as well. Um, I would hear Try to make the point that we should avoid The infantilization of producers Um, you know, most of the time Again, they are entrepreneurs. They they know what they do. They generally know why they invest or why they do not invest uh, and so, um I try to to to always remain humble, uh in in that in in relations With many different types of stakeholders, uh, and try to, you know, take a positioning of Willingness to learn from the other ones and from the reality of their context and their needs and so what you see there is indeed, uh cocoa producers It is true that that that Often chocolate doesn't manage to come back Under that form to cocoa producers But I would not say that that they do not know the value of chocolate I would not say that they do not know that this is an important sector When you speak about about I think it's about six million people in Côte d'Ivoire that are working in that sector, you know, it would be really Weird that they don't know that it's an important sector for the global market You know six million people working in it again. That's that's really a lot Uh, and and also, um, you'd be surprised also by the the level of of creativity But also of of efficiency of of the investments and the directions that they want to take as entrepreneurs again, uh and solutions that that, um That might come up from producers might not always appear to make sense to us But this is where I think we need to learn to be humble, uh and stop the infantilization of producers Um, I would love to see the the situation evolve where where producers indeed True better income are empowered to uh to make choices Today and I'll come back to the estomac family the hungry stomach Today the reality is that there's little choice available for producers Cocoa is called a cash crop today. It is the crop that makes most sense Uh to cultivate because it is the one that that that brings cash Uh, even though it is not sufficient cash, uh, even though there's huge challenges But we need to look at the bigger picture. Um, and so Probably the choice of cocoa is the best choice today in that given context Uh, and and I'm not placed to say what a producer should invest or not invest in Uh, I think we need to try to evolve towards the situation where they are empowered To make choices and here I have a firm belief also that people Uh and myself coming from from a family with a lot of uh, a lot of farms and agriculture Um, you know, I I firmly believe that farmers Want to take care of uh Of of the ground that that you know that that that gives them work and and And that allows to to cultivate products. Um, the reality again is that A hungry stomach doesn't have any years and so you cannot For sustainability to be a priority. Um as long As the context Is not favorable for that if you ask a cocoa producer today Uh, what can we do to uh to help you Move towards this situation of a living income The honest response will be buy my cocoa and and buy my cocoa at a at a good price so that I can start investing in You know in in in sustainability in sustainable cocoa or another income generating projects and so yes, um, I think we should There's no there's no simple response to that and yes, definitely there's there's different programs that are looking into that and And and looking how we can create a supportive context for for diversification of income Because there also I think it's one element of the response that we definitely need to look at But also that one will not be sufficient on itself And then in terms of I guess uh other initiatives that Beyond Chocolate is part of Could you maybe share some that you know have been maybe Successful and I put successful in quotes because you know, I think success is kind of difficult to uh, I guess qualify Because it depends how you look at it, uh, I would say successful in the sense that uh That that that The the impact models that are implemented Are an upgrade uh of what has been done before and so I think uh with Beyond Chocolate Indeed, we are lucky to have a lot of uh of active stakeholders and so they bring a lot of expertise and and Uh and strategies on the table that we can then discuss and evaluate and see how how they can how they can build on each other Uh and with this program also, uh, the Belgian government has created a fund to co finance projects That aim at realizing the ambition Of Beyond Chocolate faster and aims at you know developing business models that we can upscale and so Today there's nine projects that are co financed And these are really projects that are focusing on the cocoa value chain and and and indeed on Raising the income and in the first deforestation and ending child labor But also taking into account that this is a process And that we need to to be able to evolve step by step with a coalition of partners that makes sense. Um, and so Uh, definitely there's a couple of interesting projects I would label them as successful in the sense that they are truly innovating and that that uh And that definitely some of these commercial partners have decided to step up their game and to You know to to to develop expertise and and at some point also Take risks because for a company innovating and innovating in sustainability Is also a risk. Um, and so, uh, we have now nine pilot projects With companies that are willing to take risks to actually, um, You know, um support this transition of the sector that that we are aiming for So we have champions. Yeah All right, is there anything remaining that you would like to share charles maybe for uh, yeah our audience Yeah, eat chocolate. I think it's uh, it's it's a good way to to to end this conversation to me. Um You know, I've been lucky enough to to be able to to have some good discussions and and even develop friendships with uh With a couple of cocoa producers Uh, and this helps me a lot today in my job. Um, and uh, and here again, I'd like to stress if um If you'd like to make a difference in the life of cocoa producers as a consumer This is a great excuse to to just put your mouth full of chocolate But then also, um as a consumer be be conscious of your role and dig deeper I think there are products now, uh on the shelves in in almost every supermarket that that that are You know that are going uh a step further that that that really Are ready speak of living incomes and of raising the bar and and of going Going one step ahead and and these These products actually are a great tool for development and and As a consumer if you buy these products, you're actually also supporting the initiative of of the company that is that is showing their willingness to move forward and so um Here really, um, I think it's it's it's time to You know to make our concept of uh of development and and aid evolve Uh, and that we need to empower Uh and not aid, uh, and and this you can do By having great trade relations. Um, and Yeah, basically, that's it. Uh, and that works for cocoa producers But it also works for for the bakery next door or the farmer that is farming a few kilometers away from here Uh, if you want to as a consumer to make a difference Get informed ask questions ask tricky questions allow yourself to fail sometimes. It's okay You know, there's There's nothing in this world is perfect and I think that's okay too. Um, but what we want to do is have movement and dynamism and that's um, that's the only thing that would be unacceptable to me is a stages quo And so as long as there's movement, um, there's something that we can work with to move forward So eat chocolate be part of that movement Huh, maybe we should go buy some today I have my secret stash such as most people