 One has actually hi everybody My name is Dave Martins and I am the new director at the Vermont affordable housing coalition And I'm here with Liz Curry from and the common land solutions common land solutions and joining us on the phone is Sarah teal from Voices for Vermont children and so we're here tonight to talk during our our time slot tonight about Housing and how it relates to children and to early childhood development and Just to sort of say a word about how This came about is that at VAHC we've decided to Kind of roll out. I guess you call it a program a new program where we talk each month about housing in light of a particular theme and so in September we were talking about How housing impacts the recovery community because September is national recovery month and so We decided that for October we would go with children's health and the reason for that being because yesterday The day before yesterday the day before yesterday was National child's health children's health awareness day and so the end of the month of course is Halloween which is a children's day, right and and so we thought that this would be a good theme to kind of to kind of talk about and The part of the reason for that is also that I don't know if you know this I don't say I think Sarah knows this because we talked about it on the phone the other day but children's health awareness day was established by Calvin Coolidge in 1928 who is from Say not Fairfield, Vermont. That's right from Vermont and and the reason why he established the day Was because children's health care at the end of like the 19th century was disastrous It was nothing like we knew it today and children sick children were literally being just kind of left and it was really an awful situation and He wanted to really raise awareness about this But the first few hospitals that opened directed to children's health care We're not like we would imagine today like Boston's children's hospital or it was their mission Was to provide food clothing and shelter To children and I feel like at the heart of that is a concept that today we would call Housing is health care, right because they understood that These children needed a home in order To get better and to be well and so really I'd like that to kind of be our topic for discussion is Housing is health care. What does that mean in the in the lives of children? so We've already talked Sarah and I Have talked a little bit about This concept a bit and how it plays out a little bit where what what do you think about that Liz? Well, first I want to thank you for the invitation and tell you just a little bit about myself as a consultant That incorporated common land solutions. I am not charging. This is volunteer time, but I spent 20 years in the affordable housing development community in nonprofits and specifically developing a lot in Franklin County in rural Vermont and Managed a housing rehab loan program and did some other things that were all kind of grounded in Way back when I was in the university studying actually housing zoning which grew right out of health threats and health conditions, so this is a really nice tie-in and then It's nice to have voices for Vermont children on the phone because I spent seven years on the school board in Burlington and worked with people who worked for Vermont voices for Vermont children, so I Appreciate participating in this conversation. Thank you Yeah, I mean there's so much to unpack around housing How the impact of affordable safety and affordable housing for children? especially in their early formative years And you know as you mentioned like early in the century 19th century There was a recognition that children were at risk their health was at risk if they weren't a Minimum fed and sheltered and those were probably you know in the form of orphanages or something like that But that was also the same time our zoning laws came into being and that was because there was Rampant there were pandemic conditions in overcrowded housing and so people were getting really sick So that is also part of the underlying architecture of housing as health care Florence Nightingale was a big proponent, you know And also I do want to recognize that you know we as a society Were were founded on the enslavement of Africans and we you know took land from indigenous We colonized land from indigenous tribes and so you know automatically we created a Land in a real estate system that put people out and failed to provide you know their basic needs for them and so you know our real estate system itself is just You know kind of on these pillars of a caste system that never delivered What is needed to? Have a healthy quality of life And so that's that's you know, I just think important to recognize And hold ourselves responsible and accountable for that I could go on and on about housing and health care because I spent a Couple years writing a playbook for how what energy and efficiency and weatherization Improves indoor air quality and that contributes a lot to minimizing the effects of asthma and for children. That is especially Important and you know leverages huge gains and positive impacts over time. So there's also just the physical Aspects of developing affordable housing in Vermont Is accomplished through a framework of funding agencies and technical assistance that delivers Healthy housing healthy indoor air quality and you know There are studies across the nation around the health outcomes of children and families who live in housing That's been weatherized and made more energy efficient. So that's another dimension of the topic You know what I love is like just in that Just kind of in those few thoughts we touched on like Equality right, you know raise the Racial equality racial justice like weatherization climate stuff health care, right and I Think that all too often Sometimes I think when we work kind of in the nonprofit field or in some kind of advocacy work sometimes It's very easy to end up in your silo and not kind of move out of it and I think that if there's any issue that we all can come together around It's housing and I mean it crosses all political lines across is all everything that you're not going to find anybody who says You know, no, you know, no people should just not have homes like no one thinks that exactly and so That's why we're really trying to be real intentional about Bring that to light and talking about housing in light of these different themes To kind of you know Make people comfortable to step out of their silo and talk about how this fits within the bigger system, you know So I'm so glad that you're that you're with us today. So glad you were this today Thank you and Sarah. I just love the name of your organization That that in and of itself does it for me Voices for children. I love it. Why don't you kind of tell Tell the folks who are watching a bit about yourself and your work and and a bit about voices for voices for children Voices I've been around for decades and we have always worked Holistically across sectors across the whole state to really try to I really am appreciating these comments because it's so clear That all of the systems are connected and all of them impact each other and also all parts of children's lives affect the rest of their lives and Housing is an example of that that's just very salient Not only is it incredibly common sense, but it's also really researched and backed by research in terms of health, especially There is a researcher who's pretty well known in Vermont. She's become well known in Vermont Megan sandal out of Boston she's a pediatrician and researcher and all of her work has basically shown the direct connection between Housing and health to the degree that she she has a phrase where she says housing is a vaccine And it's really interesting coming out of Well, hoping to soon come out of this pandemic year and a half When it it really was immediately obvious to everybody that housing was directly protective of people's health in that moment In pandemic conditions, but really it's it's that way all the time And especially for kids the you know the highest rates of homelessness are actually in the youngest children and Not only does it have like direct effects on their health which We all can understand and their well-being But it also just has really long-term cumulative potential effects and on all sorts of things like their education But in terms of like ACEs long-term health impacts way far into adulthood Those things are hard to calculate, but I think we all know that that they're there And I'm also really appreciating your comments with about the underlying system because I think Many of us who work in various areas are just really ready to think across those silos in a really transformational way Recognizing that the system that we have right now doesn't actually at all guarantee housing for children. In fact It works on a principle of scarcity and the roots are discriminatory of so many things as we know and I think it's really a good time to To think about how we can actually make this a guarantee and actually address the correcting for Those oppressive systems Yeah, absolutely, and you know, I think that we're in in such a you know, everyone talks about Or everyone uses these days the phrase unprecedented We're living in these unprecedented times in this Unprecedented crisis and everything is unprecedented. That's very true. I think part something else that's unprecedented right now is the attention That affordable housing is getting you know at the the legislative level certainly in terms of funding in terms of I mean, there's sort of all these Positive dynamics that are coming out of the crisis that we're in that truly is unprecedented and You know, maybe something also that will come out of that will be unprecedented work to get you know, even more intentionally intentionally together You know towards towards working towards a solution to this to this whole situation, you know So what is the do you want to say a word about the kind of advocacy kind of stuff that the voices does? Sure, we work primarily on state policy Like I said across all areas Economic security and economic justice are a very Core principle for us and housing is right in there with that And we also work, you know in communities and with communities various grassroots organizing Super and was there were you guys involved with the rental rental housing safety bill stuff? Not not as a lead no Sure Yeah, but I guess we're members of the housing the housing advocacy community definitely There's a lot of conversation right now starting to happen about the rental housing safety bills. We move towards another legislative Session right and that the We know that the bill had been passed by the house in the Senate and then was vetoed kind of surprisingly and You know, I think that there's it's important. I think that we continue the conversation though about how that we need a Rental housing safety bill You know, and if we got to start over whatever we're gonna do But we can't give up and we got to see the importance behind that piece of legislation and I think that The tie so obvious, you know in with in with children I think in particular the two pieces of those it's interesting when you talk about the bill It's always interesting to me what people call it. Some people call it like the registry bills So you'll call it by its, you know by at 79 But like I feel like we have to talk about Just a rental housing safety bill because that's what it is That's what it was and that's what we still need and that's you know What's gonna the fight that has to continue or the work? Yeah, that that needs to continue, you know Yeah, and on that point actually, you know rental housing codes were an Outgrowth of zoning codes and so, you know, there's a whole body of health and safety codes That go along with housing and I mean all of our codes are related to health and safety So it's interesting that you know people are willing to tolerate zoning codes But then the minute you go to, you know, regulate Housing which and housing is incredibly regulated in many ways people don't realize Usually to the benefit of the owner But you know when we talk about regulating Multifamily building there's a you know strange reaction that is again rooted in that concept of ownership and Proprietariness that our real estate system is based on because you know We don't recognize multifamily property as a business, which it is Speaking as a multifamily property owner. It's a business and it should be expected that multifamily property owners who Don't live in the building and those who do You know have a business that needs to be regulated for health and safety reasons the same reason we have liquor control You know the same thing we want to make sure the public is safe and healthy And we're not putting that public in harm's way, but that's Not a common way of thinking about multifamily housing. We think of it as like Oh, it's just your other house and you get to control Whatever or not or put people at risk and I I think there's a lot of opportunity to educate the public about Kind of that fundamental concept that you know We also for the first time if we're not have contractor registration. So there is finally a recognition that contractors go into your home and could cause health and safety problems for you if they're not skilled and qualified and so now we have a Registration for contractors requirement and that's you know along the same lines And we have fire codes and we have energy efficiency codes when you're building new construction. So Leaving out the rental housing code is just a huge Missed opportunity and it actually puts children in particular in harm's way Vermont has one of the fire highest fire rates in the nation From the old prop from old property that hasn't been reinvested in it hasn't been kept up And it hasn't been maintained the energy burden is huge for families Which takes food out of kids mouths and other you know basic needs aren't met because we have these very old Delapidated buildings where people pay exorbitant amounts for utilities every month. So yeah, there's there's a lot to talk about there I remember I was uh, you know, I knew I'm so I'm new to Vermont and I came from Rhode Island's the Well Rhode Island via Connecticut, but really I'm a Rhode Islander by origin and I worked there in the course of my In the course of my career I worked in well in the early days of my career kind of in direct care with with youth at-risk youth and their families and you know with we call the DC YF there not DC F but DC YF and I remember Kind of upon reflection one day After I've been doing this for I think two years two or three years at the time and it just struck me how so many of these families who were just stooped in poverty and They would get sort of linked up with You know DC YF involvement Because here you had like They were caught in this in that that system that that's not a liberating system at all right and so and it's constant crisis management and and mom can never or dad or mom and dad can Can't just get ahead you know and the primary You know they're looking at their kids and thinking like well We have to sacrifice for ourselves So we get to put the kids first, but sometimes there's nothing left to sacrifice and and it really is because of this And I think a large part because of that system that instead of liberating and empowering and freeing Can instead really really drown the person You know and I think that it's sort of You know, I have a friend who Does some uber uber driving part-time and it was commenting on how the amount of money that people spend on uber Why don't they just get a car and it's like well Because that's not the way the system works Right because the system doesn't allow us to save might miss the same kind of thing or get a loan Yeah, I get alone or like credit So, you know we end up caught in these systems And I think to a certain degree all of us in in different ways and smaller ways for some than others, but that In the in that system, it's the kids who are ultimately always always the victim and always the one who struggle and We got to work together to get Out of it and I think also I want to just bring up that you know the Let's grow kids was just able to move forward a significant bill on childcare and Sarah you probably know more about this than me, but you know now that they have finally achieved a pretty heavy lift a big goal You know when you think about Actually implementing that and you have families who are constantly moving around and In and out of homelessness It's like what happens when kids try and go to school if they try and go to child care You're gonna you know create a situation where they don't get consistent care, you know, and you'll see significant academic losses and you know just brain development losses and That sets them up for failure and then we as a society will spend more and more on Meeting their needs in a disjointed fractured way because our systems are not Aligned so, you know those that that stability that affordable housing brings in addition to having safe decent healthy affordable housing Just having the stability of housing Allows a family to access subsidized child care or school in a more consistent way Which avoids costs for us as a society down the road, but that prevention concept is I think still Has a ramp to go up before people, you know really Support spending now to prevent costs later So maybe the pandemic will You know, there's just a larger societal kind of psychological Shift that would need to happen in order to really be successful like Vermont has Universal health care for children and it is possible to calculate all of the savings from that but for whatever reason That has not happened and it could be demonstrated that the same would outcome would happen if we had a more affordable housing for everyone guaranteed sure That's a great point. It really we can either Protect the investments we're making in all the other systems, which are and should be significant child care education, right? Like we really Generally commit as a state to like having those systems be strong And and dr. Dine for right so and health care for children So we spend a lot of money in those areas as you're pointing out if we don't have Stable housing we're actually undermining those very investments at the same time as we're making them It's a cause there's a cost shift there to all of these other systems And it could be calculated. You're right like how much how much of those how much money would be saved by having? stable housing for every family for sure We're coming to the end of our of our time together. So I would throw out the one last Kind of thought for maybe if we could I'd love to just get a word from both of you about it That the end of last summer at the height of the pandemic we had 2000 Vermonters living homeless Vermonters living in motels in them through the motel program 400 of which were children We know that this program is getting extended some people have to gossip it, right? We all know the you see it in the news But those numbers strike me 2000 Vermonters 400 children. We need answers because this can't go on forever, but a Thought maybe from each of you about kind of the Part of the what's part of the answer Well from the kind of housing development side like creating housing I Actually opened the first COVID hotel in Vermont for CVO EO for a Champlain Valley Office of Economic Opportunity and the transformation I Think was phenomenal in terms of people just having that privacy a place to go every day no matter what Even though there was a lot of chaos around But I do wonder about the opportunity for the medical community in the hospitals and to become more engaged in this conversation in this issue and and that is happening certainly UVM has subsidized a Motel For Champlain Housing Trust. I worked on a project Rutland Housing Authority was able to get a huge Gift around 225,000 or more from Rutland Regional Hospital So the engagement of hospitals in providing capital because it will bring their costs down They are beginning to see that and then they are they are seeing those savings and that is more data more financial data To demonstrate that that partnership Can grow and grow? Sarah one minute Yeah, I'm gonna offer us a good a good closing thought a good closing thought It's a continuum right the unstable housing is a continuum all the way from being unhoused To having unaffordable housing where you're vulnerable to sudden economic shock shock shock loss, etc and That's that's an incompletely complete thought I was just gonna say that number of unhoused people During the pandemic Was higher much higher than that count in previous years and all of the housing advocates kind of said oh We told you this was the case right like there have been all along People who are not being counted like as a as an example In the 2018-2019 school year there were a thousand students that schools counted as Qualifying for services for homeless students under the McKinney-Vento Act Some of them are doubled up some of them are living in cars some of them are in shelters And some of them are unsheltered so in any case there's this whole continuum But I think what we would like to see is a system where There's much more democratic control of housing and where it's permanently affordable and not then like subject to the market It's just way too important to be just at the whim of the broader economy or Market cost is what it is like it needs to be Rooted somewhere else You're sure Well on that note it is a continuum and so is our work all of our work together that I like the picture of a continuum because it Keeps rolling and that's what we're gonna do keep rolling keep working together. Thank you both for joining us today and everyone at home join us again for our ongoing conversation about housing from a slightly different perspective With each show and if you have any questions about the work that we do you can find out everything you want to know and more at Vt affordable housing org and thank you for joining us and Sarah and Liz once again. Thank you. Thank you, Dave Would you think Sarah? Yeah, I mean as far as I could tell With really both of you it was really wonderful to hear your thoughts and I appreciate being here And thank you for joining us and please tell Michelle I emailed her but please tell her that I hope everything Hope she's okay. I think she's she's good. Yeah, she's got she's taken and care of it, but there was a sudden sudden blip Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's our I'll talk to you soon Session yeah, because it would give you a chance to talk about the coalition's agenda, right? You still there Sarah She's been doing Is it true that some of the numbers are Well, like one day Yeah, yeah, there's no trend One day data you can't watch the news It's true Yeah, so you don't live here before no, I was run island familiar Who's your celebrity doppelganger? I Was just talking about this last night, and I don't remember if you said the name Yeah Or with names, but yeah, it struck me. Did you grow up in New York like Michael site like Michael site Our R. E. M. You know the band I've gotten that right. Yeah, that's it. That's what I thought and my joke has been that taking over for Airheart as must this must be what it was like for Patrick Stewart When he Is not only am I a bald man