 Hello and welcome everyone, thank you for joining us for today's event. My name is Marianne Wallace and I am the British Library curator for the Cadet de Salle in this space we breathe exhibition here at the British Library. This extraordinary series of photographic self portraits is the work of Cadet de Salle, a young British Gambian artist. To produce these works she photographed herself using the wet collodion process and 19th century technique, which has resulted in evocative, blurred, in some cases almost ethereal photographs. In each image she holds a different object, most are of spiritual significance, and all of them link with Gambian culture. This evening we're going to dig deeper into the history and meanings of these objects. Please do come and see the exhibition for yourself, it's free, and at the moment advanced booking is necessary via our website. Now let me introduce the co-curator of the exhibition, Cadet de George Sasse. Cadet de George is a literary activist, writer, editor and co-founder of Mbaka Festival for Arts, Culture and Sport, and a PhD candidate at Brighton University researching Black British Publishers and Pan-Africanism. She has received several awards for her work in the creative arts, and it's been a pleasure working with her. Cadet de George, over to you. Thank you for that lovely introduction, Marianne, and my name's Cadet de George, so good evening everyone and salam aleikum. Thank you for joining us for this very special event in which we share personal and cultural insights on the work of Cadet de George Sasse, who died in the Grenfell Tower at the age of 24 with her mother and 70 other people in June 2017. This evening you will be hearing from artist and social historian Nicola Green, who was her mentor and co-curator of the Diaspora Pavilion at the Venice Biennale, and founder of Cadet de George Sasse Arts at Inter-University. And we're also going to be hearing from Malik Jeng, who is the co-director of Yaramats, and in Baka Festival, and a consultant on Gambian and Senigambian arts and culture. So Nicola is going to talk briefly about Cadet de George and her work and some of her processes, and Malik is going to talk a little bit about Gambian society and traditions. And as we move through the images, they're both going to talk from the personal aspect and from the cultural aspect, so you're getting a totally rounded vision of what Cadet de George was aiming to do. And then at the end, we're going to have a Q&A session, so you will have opportunities to not to ask me, but to ask Malik or Nicola anything that you'd like. So first of all, Nicola, could you talk a little bit about how you knew Cadet de George and a little bit about her work, please? Sorry, just unmuted. Thank you, Cadet de George. Thank you very much. So I met Cadet de George back in 2014. I had curated a part of the discerning eye exhibition, which was an open call exhibition for emerging artists. And Cadet de George had put in a series of work that was actually the work she'd made for her degree show, and she had just recently graduated. And the series called Crowned, which were photographic images of her friends and family or women. And I had just, my husband and I had just adopted our third child at the time, a girl. And I was thinking very much about, as a white mother, thinking about my daughters, my black daughters experience in many ways, but not least her hair and thinking about how important her hair is. And Cadet de George and I had amazing conversations about her work. But what what really happened was that she, she stood at the opening night with her mother Mary right next to her work all night. And she kind of in a very quiet but determined way she challenged me. And she told me about her experience going getting a scholarship to rugby. Where she was kind of really flabbergasted by the sort of effortlessness of the ambition and kind of ideas of all the children that she was at found herself at school with that that whatever that that they just assumed that whatever they were going to do they were succeeding. And there she was having finished her degree. She had taken out a loan to make the frames for these works. And she, she said to me, you know, I'm working as a care full time as a care assistant like my mom. And I don't see how I'm ever going to pay back the loan just for these frames. And she was like, I, I saw in those. I saw that the kind of level of ambition that I could have and I but I, I, I need help as to how I can sort of achieve that. And she then came to my studio and she worked in my studio. And so long afterwards, I, David a Bailey the curator came to me and said that he had got some funding for some artists to go to awkward Venice Biennale. And would I find some funding to bring some artists along for networking events. And so I did and Khadija was one of the young artists that I mentored that we took to Venice back in 2015. And I started in myself and David a Bailey founding the diaspora pavilion which came to pass in 2017 and Khadija was the youngest emerging artist in the diaspora pavilion in Venice. And she was, and the only exhibition she'd had was that discerning I exhibition. And she, she made these 19 types for that exhibition in Venice, it was a huge massive deal for her to be exhibiting in Venice alongside some of her heroes and heroines, and in the art world. And, but that process of making those works and the kind of what she was experiencing kind of concurrently to all of that excitement in her personal life, and led to her kind of soul searching very deeply. And, and a kind of incredible journey that I was sort of lucky enough to go on with her, which resulted in these works, and they really are a kind of exploration actually of her faith in all kinds of ways, as well as her heritage and kind of, and and her ancestry, and her desire to kind of understand this religious heritage from her father and her mother, her Gambian heritage, which was very important to her, a West African heritage, and, and her heritage as a black woman from the continent of Africa, all of those things kind of came into this work. So I'm going to leave it there. Yeah, because then we're going to hear a little bit more from you as we move through the images about her life and then the processes of what she was going through those as well but that is a lovely introduction. Thank you so much to help us understand where she was coming from when she was making that work so Malik, could you talk a little bit about Gambian society and traditions please. Well Gambian society is like one extended family where people are interrelated across different faiths. It is a population of over 90% Muslims, but most would have attended schools that were run by Christian missionaries. In a typical day in the Gambia, one would experience the Muslim call to prayer as an old short bells ringing. There is this coexistence where from both religious events, let's say the Christians, festivities and feast and Islamic ones are celebrated by old people. It is for instance like when Muslims observe like it will fit or it will act where it is local, which is locally called quality and Tabaschi. They will open their homes to their Christian friends, families and neighbors. Likewise, Christians would do the same, would reciprocate this over Easter and Christmas. So this even well to add, when you have like this big Christian sort of celebrations, apart from the church services and perhaps other religious activities, the Muslim men and women are the main people you see that might be occasioned with cultural events and other activities in the main. So this natural flow seamlessly connecting and living together is what sort of defines the African Gambia. Obviously, I'm not oblivious that in the recent past there's been a bit of uneasiness. But that I would regard as a byproduct of political expediency because Gambia went through a dictatorship for two decades and religion was amongst other things tested. For the bond and legacy that has held over the years, I'm so hoarse true and we continue to work. So coming to sort of the cultural and indigenous practices, rituals and objects. Most of them carry spiritual significance and are multilayered meanings and relevance. Can you say his family, I mean her parents, Agile who unfortunately also was killed in the Grenfell tower fire and her dad would have definitely grow up in that era with what Gambia time to portray here, when this was much even stronger. So so they would have these values and ready to be able to introduce their child or instill some of these things to her. So now being a diaspora herself. Where you have different talents in the West and been grounded or been availed that sort of treasure is something when she faces sort of this new AC pointed out when she faced trauma. She can tap into and explore these cultural heritage, not only to inspire her work, not only to inspire her word to do sort of interesting stuff but to embolden and strengthen her character to face these challenges. But before I leave, I would also want to add that the way I see some of the objects presented by her is a bit of an auditory. It's so surreal that perhaps maybe she's also provoking something unknown. So but as we progress into this program, maybe we will respond to those. I think that is totally right what you said that's what Marion and I were thinking when we were creating. And also we have on it you see it as an oddity for us is like this brave woman, thank you. We saw it. This brave woman, thank you. But as you were talking, you were really making me miss Gambia. But anyway, what we're going to do now and we're going to make other people miss Gambia as we talk about that. See how rich the culture was and then it will get to understand not only the strength of Khadija through this, but why she held on to her culture to get her through things that was very grounding. And I think that happens with a lot of people's culture. So for people in the diaspora, when they can ground to their culture, it really is supportive for them. And I think this is what Khadija has done and challenged it at the same time. This is great. So what we're going to do is the first image we're going to look at and have a discussion around is social. So maybe Nicola is there anything you can tell us about what Khadija was thinking doing when this was being made. Well, so Khadija made nine sort of scenes, if you like, all of which you can see in the nine silkscreen prints, but each one because she was making them as tin types that each tin type is completely unique and she made a few of each tin types. And so there was a process when she was where she had to decide which pieces she was going to put in when she'd finished them all to the diaspora pavilion, which pieces she was going to present. And so that was kind of that was quite a painful decision making process for Khadija. And actually she was only able to exhibit six in the end and that was incredibly painful for her choosing which six. But then further to that. I had, I made with her and Matthew Richard jealous silkscreen printers, a silkscreen print of one of the images. And so deciding which one to choose as a silkscreen print was really hard for her. She decided on this, this image so true. And I think that that she did not decide on it necessarily because she felt it was necessarily the strongest image or her favorite but I think that that what she said was that that, well, this is the in a way I think she saw this maybe as the first image in the series. It's the one that she has her back to us. So in a way it's the most shy image maybe it's kind of if you see each one as reflecting different parts on one level of her. And, and she's kind of introducing us if you like to her world in this image. And we also she talked when when when I was with her and she was choosing this image. She talked about presenting herself as an artist too, because this was her image of presenting herself as an artist, not just as a photographer, but as an artist to the world. And she talked about afterwards, being at Venice that she was visible and what an in big deal this was to her. I think this image also. There's a sort of idea that the two sticks are the incense sticks. Malik can tell us about a bit more about them but that they could almost be paintbrushes or pencils that they that they they've got kind of multiple roles if you like they are healing in this spot they they this is this was sort of this was also I think on some level the beginning of her journey journey. Thank you that is a great start. So over to you Malik so what can you tell us about Satu and please my pronunciation. Satu is slightly fading out a bit to be honest in daily sort of time in life, but it is used mostly for dental health purposes, mainly for dental health. Apart from dental health people also use it. So cultural sort of dressing. If you properly dress it would be the last piece missing if you really especially if you want to go back in history perhaps in early sort of Gambian culture women when they fully dress and ready to go out. They would have their full gowns and get a move on all that they would want to have a subject with them that completes the full dress set, but nowadays it is more for dental health purposes to clean your your feet and all that and also Islam itself. And I recognize the power of such in terms of dental health that it is reported that Prophet of Islam, said that had it not been that she doesn't want to be label the faithful sweet too much. He would have insisted that he would have requested for people just like they do their five daily prayers and so that at any point in time they have a subject with them. Yes. That's so interesting and these these are bought in London so people they are still used in a way, I think if they're being imported and into the UK so. And Nicola mentioned the artistic aspect of academia thinking about social in that way, the only sort of again I don't want to use audity, but the provocation perhaps is why then she turned her back with the social holding the left hand. People normally face the upfront and they have a social in their mouth instead. That's how it is displayed in Gambian culture. That's interesting and do you think Malik because you know she's turned around she's holding them it's it feels to me also, you know what Khadija was saying there's a little bit of a kind of a call to arms that she's holding. She's, she's holding these in a different way to what would be expected and is normal and that there's, there's, she's really thinking about them in relation to her to her as a woman. Not just her as an artist but her, her, her own faith, her healing, but also her sense of how they're going to help her and how she's going to then go out as stronger and into the world and kind of be a strong woman in the world. What do you think. Well, her femininity as a woman and artistry, definitely that fits in with the purpose of the circuit. In terms of challenging the world, the provocation I'm pressing myself to think why would she turn her back and hold it with her left hand. I'm thinking, maybe, maybe, is she thinking whether these searches are of any use now. So now you're being you're provoking us. Let us look at the next image. So, Nicola, what can you tell us please with this. This is a provoking image. All of the objects in in these nine images were very, they are obviously quite universal in in the Gambia but they were specifically personal to her in that those so choose six sticks these, these Terry did these little prayer that folded up prayers. The objects were in her parents flat and came, many of them came from her father, who is Muslim, who is Muslim, and her mother, who was Christian, but they, they were, they all came from the Gambia and were brought over by her parents. These little prayer. These are little verses from the Quran written on on these bits of paper and what she she has kind of strung them together and put them on her face which of course is not what you would normally do with them as Malik will tell us about and I think for me this, you know, this is an incredibly powerful image. It's, she's much bigger in her face is sort of, there's less of her body in this image. It's all, and her eyes are closed and she's almost, she's kind of almost it praying. She's she's literally kind of seeking the, I don't know the wisdom the faith kind of contained in in these that have come all the way from the country of her heritage and and there they are on her face and it's an incredible incredibly powerful image I think about protection and is really kind of a strong manifestation of, of how much this work was, was actually an and a literal act of faith on her part on on at every level. And I see the, you know, the way the conversations that I had with her while she was making them. You know, she, she nearly gave up for various reasons nothing to do with she was very far from a quitter but nothing to do with her but outside circumstances that in her personal life and really difficult events that were going on for her. And so these making these works was became a kind of almost a matter of survival and I think that the way that she's placed the objects on herself and on her body. She didn't go into a huge amount of detail. Kind of unraveling each part of that actually. But in a way it's all there in the images that this is, this is, it's incredibly, it's incredibly powerful. I actually want on on discussing some of that, Nicola about her faith and you know how she use the objects, but because I actually found that image in some ways quite scary in a way. Malik, can you tell us a little bit more about terror please and again give us a correct pronunciation. Um, the theory in this occasion, if she took it from her dad, that would spell that it would have been prepared by a model who use Quranic text and on a piece of paper, and this would be seen into sort of a letter packet. And that's what she's had on her face. It is mainly for protection, and good fortune, but protection in particular people believe in detail so much that at times they feel that we are in the right theory, you know, you will be immune. And so anything like a bullet shot or knife stabbing and all that. But interestingly, before the Islamic angle, which is the ones he has that is the ones that the maracus would prepare tears are mainly associated with the occult and that is pre Islam. And this occult is obviously when they do a theory, it doesn't have to be, you know, they use whatever it is traditional, and, and, and they give it to you, and then that's that's what people normally use but still the sense of the whole thing is about protection for people. Yeah, my thing always I always thought that really, when people have them they were not public, they were not visible, be on your body, and they would be hidden. Is that correct. Yes, because people can place Terry around their waist, or their arms, and even women in particular they have Terry in their head. So, so, but these are all sort of hidden places. So what is what protection legacy again talking about the Islamic angle that's the one that the mara was not the false one. The reason it has to be covered in a, in a sort of a letter pack, because for it to be allowed on a person because otherwise Islam would say it would be allowed to visit certain places with Quranic text, but once it is covered, it's got the security to be able to have it to near personal parts of your body. Exactly. But once it has the protection like a letter pack you can be anywhere with it. Thank you. Let's go to the next image and people can be putting please put your questions into the chat. I'm going to mean now that'll be great. So this is Andy charai. Nicola, is there anything you can tell us that could you just thought about this please. Well I thought I might just mention a bit about the tin type the wet collodion process of making tin types because it was really amazing that she chose to do this it's, it's, it's, as you mentioned 150 years old it's pretty just a first form of photography that existed and it's incredibly precarious. Nobody does it anymore not least because the silver night traits that you have to use on it are incredibly toxic. And so it's almost completely not not used any, any more. And when she was all her work until this had had been more kind of more straightforward photography if you like, and she went on a course at autograph and on wet collodion on the wet collodion process. And she was really struck by the kind of precarious nature of making a wet collodion, where you put this kind of, you have to put the collodion on on a on a metal plate and she talked about it. And then take the photo and it's, it's completely out of control your control almost so you can set up the scene if you like but then the image itself you call kind of frame it and control it. And so I think she talked about it being kind of a complete act of surrender and a sort of metaphor for her faith. And, and I think that. So each of these images, the sort of combination of the clarity on the one hand, and then the kind of mystical sense of kind of the spiritual mystical dream like quality is, is kind of comes almost from that process and you really see that I think. In this image. And I think that the placing of the objects as what you know as part of that process was was was incredibly thoughtful on her part and every bit of her, how much of her body she showed what position her face was whether her eyes were closed. So there's only one where she's really looking at us. All of that, and you know how that kind of interacts with the object itself I think is, is really important and he she has her hand very kind of firmly I think the way that the gestures and the way that she places both hands in this image are very, very strong and you know I think, you know this is this is a this is a wonderful image. Can I just ask you something Nicola really quickly just off because Malik was talking we were talking about her religion and her faith. What faith was Khadija did Khadija follow did she follow her mother's Christianity, the both Christianity indigenous. I want to speak for her on that because obviously faith is such a personal thing but yes, my understanding is that broadly speaking she, she, she went to church but you know she, the one of the kind of large photographic series that she made, as well as was called Eid and it was all photographs of her dad's mosque and that was really that was very important to her as well so, and I think as Malik said, right at the beginning. Very beautifully about how in the Gambia religion, maybe there isn't such a kind of clearly defined a separation certainly not culturally and in terms of how you practice your faith but but but yes, broadly speaking, she certainly went to church with her mother, Mary. Okay. So Malik, tell us please about Andy Chirai and I know sometimes I think Khadija spoke it maybe as one word with two separate words and it's and it's spoken usually as one word is it almost two. It is Andy Chirai. It's usually made of red clay, the old traditional ones, and it's associated with women and femininity. People use it, it's like an incense burner really and then you will exactly you will then have like bone charcoal or or ashes where you would just sprinkle incense then that would just the smoke would just blow out easily. So it is the different the different instances could be too basically for order and good scent in the house. It could well be for driving out evil spells. And there are some a lot nowadays we are associated with romance and intimacy. So there's a variety of incense that women really use for different purposes. So what so what do women use for romance then. Do you know which sense is the romantic quote. I don't know the names, I will not want to try. I think one of them I know that frankincense seems to be quite popular. I've smelt the frankincense okay. Yeah, have you got any favorites. Personally, not really. Okay. But again, this is a lovely pot that we got locally in East London stroke Gambia. That's how we'll call it East London Gambia. Okay. The next image that we're going to go to isn't necessarily we won't call it a traditional Gambian image because it's basically come from the Western culture, which is lemon. And what could you tell us about this one please Nicola. Well, I, what I can tell you is that Khadija loved Beyonce. And talked about her a lot. And I think she was really one of the many things that she loved about Beyonce was how kind of proud she is of her heritage and how she talks about it in her music and in her lyrics and explores it in depth. And lemonade had come out not not not not that long before and I think that I think that the I mean Malik will tell us about kind of the lemons in terms of kind of religious practices in in the Gambia but my understanding is that they were very present also in her home so it wasn't that they're completely tied up in a sense with all these other objects in terms of kind of how she understood the purification and I talked about the she talked about the the sort of sense of baptism and cleansing in the actual wet collodion process so it's not a surprise to me in a sense that she chose to make one of the pieces with lemons that are kind of such a such a sort of powerful part of cleansing and healing practices. She, I mean this is an extraordinary image, it really is is amazing image. And I think that I think that it also is kind of for me about how she was sort of holding trauma and difficulty and and and so on, almost in her body and how these images and how she's using these objects sort of on and her body in on the different places that she's placing them that are are kind of really an exploration for her of her actual physicality, I suppose, and her own relationship with with with healing and these objects sort of through through these images so for me this is this is really this is an incredibly powerful image of the process of healing and cleansing, if you like, and she's wearing a white, she's chosen to wear a white headdress in this image. Interesting. Yeah. So many questions about her different headdresses. Yeah, discussion. Malik, how are lemons used in the Gambia what is so special about lemon in within Gambian culture is associated with superstition really I think that's the better word, not spirituality. Why because there's an element that you would believe that you would get protection for instance like in my car and driving and old Gambian man would give me and this was here in London and put me aside and say, give me a lemon and say put this in your car. By God's grace you will never have an accident. So, and I had it in my car and that's what I have. You know, so that's one thing in terms of protection. And then, normally, you'd see that it traders or traders in general, they would have lemon, lemon, lemon, we call it lemon among their goods. And this is to, to hopefully encourage them to have more sales and progress really. So, these are the main two things in Gambian culture. But obviously, for women, generally, you know, like, especially in traditional Gambian traditional African societies, women are seen to be taken care of the homes, and lemon is always associated with cleanliness in terms of cleaning and so perhaps, then again, it is fitting to see women being associated with lemon and herself in this. It must herself with a lot of lemon. Not only cleaning the house, but even cleaning the food as well. And it gives some taste as well. And then I don't want to make it a bit salty, but there's a lot of women. You see, they like a lot of this sort of stuff, whether it is pepper, just a bit spicy with lemon, a bit of, you know, something to do with that kind of, you know, lemon taste. Malik, did you say the way that businessmen use lemons? Are you suggesting then that it's a kind of symbol, you know, for, or sort of super, for prosperity and bringing, or is that? Yes, a lot of these petty traders, if you look at the, the, the curry in sort of their baskets on their heads, they usually would call lemon. Lemon. Because she did talk a lot about, she, you know, Khadija was absolutely determined to sell her work and prosper financially as an artist. So that's interesting that the lemon actually sort of has that role in the Gambia. We need to tell Beyonce that as well. You know that Khadija has nailed it for her. This is why she's prosperous. Well, maybe Beyonce's known that for a very long time. She's a bit more clued in on Africa there, right? Wonderful. Okay. So the last image we're going to look at, so I'm sorry, audience, we're not going through all nine. You'll have, you can visit the exhibition online and you can actually enlarge those pictures online. You can also now the British Library is now open and you can book tickets to come and see the exhibition until the 7th of October. So this is the last one that we're going to go through this evening, which is Petau. So what's, do you know, what can you tell us please, Nicola, about when Khadija was making this one? Well, Petau, it's the only image she's looking, she's head on and she's looking straight out at us. It's the only image where she's doing that. She's wearing kind of full headdress, beautifully kind of starched and pressed. And she's got the carry shells that she's sort of placed on her mouth with her kind of, you know, her arms, which are again, very, she's really that's very kind of conscious exactly how she's placed her arms. And I think for me this, this, this image is in a way it's kind of a counter to the first image in some ways. Because she's head on looking at us. And, and it's, it's very powerful in portraiture terms. For me, I think that she is powerfully kind of asserting herself as a black woman in the in the content in the canon of the history of portraiture and the history of art of portraits of kings and queens. And this, this deserves to be up there with them, and I hope will be because this and this for me, the carry shells, which the one object I suppose that most of us have some a little familiarity with because they're so closely associated with with so many countries in, in, in, in Africa. And so I see this as kind of really summoning up the mother country and her sense of being proud of her African heritage, as well as her West African and Gambian heritage and those carry shells. Also, I suppose on her mouth there that the sense of kind of all her senses have all her senses. So I speech hearing touch that they've all been kind of addressed in all of these works, I guess. And so this for me this is her, this is her voice. It's a fantastic headdress. It's almost like this is the queen of literally it's just. So, yeah, so this is fantastic. Yeah. So, Malik, could you please add to this for us please. How carry shells. Well, generally for Gambian culture, it is for clairvoyance, future tellers, future tellers people visit these clairvoyance and they tell them what is going to happen to them tomorrow. I wouldn't say, I mean, women are most thinking but they would probably just edit out because a lot of clairvoyance they, they, they, they, well, I don't want to use the word, but they predict people sort of marriage life, love and job prospects and everything. So people really visit clairvoyance and there's even that is fake lovers but people even involved in sort of money kind of doubling this clairvoyance. So in African culture, Gambian culture in particular, clairvoyance, they have future tellers and and and it is to relate it is related to fortune. Obviously, we know that carry shells in history has been used as a as a currency. So perhaps you can add all that and see the connection with sort of fortune and fortune telling. And I just ask you to clarify because we've used the term marabou and now you're using the term clairvoyant. Are they different? It overlaps. I mean, there are some marabous that are more involved in sort of clairvoyance but proper marabous that people would want to call, they wouldn't do that because Islam itself upholds and the use of clairvoyance. Not that it recognized the efficacy of it. Islam recognized the efficacy of clairvoyance like as a petal, I mean, she shells that it can reveal. There's no doubt about that because even the prophet there's a story where it is the petal that found out where he was hiding when he's been chased by or he was hiding from his enemies. So there's no this thing about it but proper marabous wouldn't use it because Islam itself ban people and oppose the use of clairvoyance, oppose the use of petal. So people who I would call clairvoyance then they are not proper marabous. Because they're using the cow is because they're using the cow is yes but then it is an African practice and it has, like I say, it's very potent. It is, it is very potent. That's wonderful. Both of you have given such rich explanations and insights into Khadija's work and into gambling culture. Thank you. We do have some questions for you. I don't know if we're going to get through all of them, but we will, you know, we will get through some got some really interesting questions. I know some people put some questions in the Q&A. I don't know if we've seen those. If you put them in the Q&A please put them in the chat just to make sure we get them as a question here from Maria Amidou. Thank you for the insights for this incredible work. I was wondering what will happen to Khadija say his work is it housed in a public collection. And will there be a monograph of her work. Nicola. So that is all of the estate that survived. I might say that very tragically most of her work was also in the flat and didn't survive the fire. But what remains is in her father's gift to decide where it goes. There is already one of the pieces, Nakbejen, is in the Tate Museum. And the silk screen prints, there are 50 of each of the silk screen prints and many of those sets have been bought by museums around the world. So and there are still sets available and there are still institutions and museums in the process of purchasing them. The funds from those go to the Khadija say into arts program, which is part of inter-university. And she herself went into university from the age of seven all the way to going to sixth form. And the inter-arts program helps other young disadvantaged children who want to go into the arts. So the other tin types to answer your question, that's still being decided. And I very much hope that a monograph will soon come to pass. And this amazing work that Khadija and Marion and Malik have been doing will, I hope, be part of that. Thank you. Yes. I'll come back to you about the terms of the monograph. Having one is going to be very important. Can you tell us briefly, Nicola, a little bit about the title? In this space, we breathe. We breathe well in this space, we breathe. Well, she actually thought about lots of titles. But I must say, so I know about a lot of the other titles that she thought about and lots of them kind of referred to her faith. And they were all amazing titles, by the way. But each one would have given the work, I suppose, a slightly different lens. But this is the title she landed on in the end. And partly this work was actually made sort of, you know, all the diaspora pavilion. And that work was specifically a response to that pavilion. It was the first-ever diaspora pavilion at the Venice Biennale. And, you know, which is like the Olympics of the art world, held in Venice every two years. The David A. Bailey and myself and my husband David Lambie, when we had the first idea of making this diaspora pavilion, it was part, it was sort of 10 years before when we had been there and we were so struck by when you walk in to the Biennale. There's almost a kind of colonial hierarchy basically of the pavilions and the countries that get pavilions and the order that they are in. And so the diaspora pavilion was a kind of response to that. So I think, and each of the artist's work was a response to the actual space that the diaspora pavilion was in. So I think that she was very much focused on her becoming an artist in that place as a black woman, and kind of realizing her dreams of becoming an artist. She talked very powerfully about becoming visible and that she felt visible, you know, in that exhibition. And so I think the title, I think the title refers to that, but it's an incredibly, I can't speak for her in terms of really kind of interrogating that title. I think it speaks for itself, it's incredibly powerful. Can I just ask you, before we go on to the next question, you may know this, you may not, she does insist that it's lowercase I. Do you know why? If you don't want to second guess, that's fine. I just thought I'd ask, but I know she was very insistent on that, wasn't she? Yes, I don't want to be definitive about that. She was insistent about that. And I can't be definitive about it, but I think it's really because it refers to, it refers to dwelling, the first part of it, it's dwelling colon. Colon. And I suppose I assume that it's about, it's kind of referring to the dwelling on all kinds of levels. So, yeah, I think it's her clarifying that in this space we breathe is part of that kind of wider sense of the dwelling. Malik, is this a question for you? It's a very quick question. I will let people know we don't have much time, but we have been told we can go a little bit over because the questions are quite fascinating and they're really good. Malik, in reference to the lemons, and this is from Eve Ferguson, in reference to the lemons, isn't Yasa a traditional dish? Could there also be some association with traditional food ways? Well, yes, indeed. Yasa is a traditional dish. I tried to explain, maybe in a joking way, that a lot of Gambians, obviously these sort of street food, they like to do a lot of these lemony stuff that they just quick prepare and this, but in terms of full sort of Gambian dishes. Yes, indeed, lemon is used in most of these things very well. I will just kind of explain a little bit. I knew, Nicola, you went quite, really gave a good explanation about how her work came to be at the Venice Biennale and her work, the six that she selected. So they were in the Venice Biennale in June 27 and she was, and that's, you know, and that's unfortunately when the Grenfell Tower tragedy happened. So those works are almost like her final, this is her legacy to us, right? This is like her. So the six types, yes, are the only types that survived. Yeah, yeah, and somebody was asking about her age, she was 24, is that, she was born in 1994, half the way. She was, yes, she was born in 1992. Right. I know that wasn't far away, was it, for some of us. And she has, and she did, somebody was asking, she did live in the UK, but she travelled to the Gambia often because she was with her mum and they were close and she, and that culture was, was very much part of her. She lived there for, I think over a year, I can't be exact, but she could go to school there. I think towards the end of primary. And then, you know, she, she went back while she was at art college at Farnham, and she did this amazing series of work in the Gambia called Homecoming. I would like to quickly add to this question, you know, like about the lemony food, that one popular Gambian dish is tomoda, and in the West, and a lot of tourists, and obviously I guess diaspora as well, like it's so much when they visit Gambia or when they try it here. And it is more or less just, you know, cooked with too much lemon. Is it really? It's called domona. Do you think it's cooked with too much lemon? Maybe one of the things why is because groundnuts grow, I mean, that's one of the staple, one of the staple exports. You know, over here, when we, when we cook domador or groundnuts stew, we're using groundnuts from the jar, you know, whereas in Gambia, you're using fresh groundnuts and it's pounded. It's quite thick, and it's quite heavy but quite delicious. So maybe the lemon is there just breaking it down a little bit. You don't need to break it down in England because you're getting it from the jar in the supermarket. It's a totally different texture. And so I think the lemon is there helps to break it down a little bit. That's my... That's your thing. Of course I much prefer the domada. And I'm missing the domada. You know, butters too. Yes, lovely. Okay, thank you. We've got a great question here from Louisa Egbonike. And it's, she is saying that as mentioned by Nicola, so it's, I'm going to take a little bit of time to make sure I get it properly. This style of photography is no longer common. As such, the style of photography really evokes the past, specifically a much earlier era of photography. Given that at times problematic history of photography in Africa through the colonial lens and Khadija's own engagement with her cultural heritage and positioning in the diaspora. Can you speak to the ways in which Khadija invokes the past in her works? Yeah. We'll say something a little bit about that. That's a wonderful question. And I think that's absolutely right. I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence that she, when she, that she found this work, Nickelodeon, it was, it was, it was when photography was invented. So of course, it was what the Victorians used. And so at the height of kind of colonialism, this, this is the, this is the TANET technique that was used for photography. And it was so difficult and treacherous. Because actually photographers had to kind of take a whole chemical lab with them to take photos. So anybody that had a portrait made in those times was actually, by definition, incredibly wealthy. So, so, so those portraits absolutely in, in, in the past that we might may have seen made on tin types on these metal plates are, you know, sort of, you know, powerful, wealthy, white kind of Europeans. And, and in that kind of colonial context, she's definitely 100% placing herself in that context and challenging that very directly. And, and, and very uniquely because it's not something where Nickelodeon is not something that other artists, you know, there are a few people making tin types, but it's very, it's very unusual. And so all that she brought to that particular technique is one of the many, many kind of incredible challenges for us in, in, in her work. These works, there are only nine of them, they're incredibly deep on so many levels. Okay. And we just say as well, we're probably going to go 10 minutes over just to let people know we're going to try and put in as many questions as possible, but we will cut, we will finish in 10 minutes. Go ahead, Malik. Okay, I was going to add that in spite of all the sophistication in this technique that Nicola just explained, the portraits, they're not unfamiliar to the Gambian eye. Yes, because looking at them to me is just like looking at all portraits, images that perhaps if I was going to look at a kind of Gambian photograph, it comes out this way. I don't know, I'm not an expert in photography, of course, but I don't know the connection, but certainly it is not something that is unfamiliar to me, you know, how it came out, how it came out. It's not familiar. Okay, there's one question I will come back to because I can answer it. Another question here is, there are some really interesting parallels between transitional Gambian culture and traditional Sudanese culture. My parents use dental twigs growing up. Okay, so sorry, that was more of a comment, it's a nice comment and incense in clay pots is used in many different reasons, often by women, limes are prominent rather than, limes are prominent rather than lemons. Shells are used in fortune telling. And we all love Bay. Yes, we do. Thank you. Thanks, Kathleen. Khadija story and art is full of so much beauty and wisdom. Has it ever been considered to have some kind of sharing of her work virtually with universities internationally, historically black colleges, for example. Do you know anything about if that might happen. I hope so I mean I'm hoping that this work that you are doing Khadija with Marion at the British Library will be shared widely and widely with other institutions and everything that exists of Khadija's work is, is, is, is, you know, is open access in that respect so what has been made so far, you know, is there to be shared. Yeah. However, I've just heard actually that a friend of mine from the state she sent me the message that Dr. Raimi Badamosi, I don't know if you know from him is from, he was at Leicester recently coming from Pretoria, he's going to be the head of the department head of arts at Howard University. I'm so excited. So, yes, I will tap into him to say, come on, Raimi, do something at Howard University for us with, with Khadija's work. I think they'll love it in Washington DC. So, in terms of that historic feedback college there from Amy, Amy, I'm sure hopefully we'll get something going there. Victoria Miro and everybody at her gallery have also been doing an incredible job as well at sort of putting Khadija's work out into the widest possible kind of network of institutions around the world. Yeah, as it should be great. I think there was one or two more questions. I'm just going to have a look. I was going to ask this a question about because I couldn't remember in my head, the, the chewing sticks, the actual tree that they came from somebody was asking about that. It's a persica. Something persica, I cannot remember the name. Do you know what it is, Malik? Salvador. Thank you. Salvador Persica. Thank you. Actually, I was actually, I'm probably going to write something about it as a British library blog because it's so deep that information there as well is really good. There's I think one more question here. I'm just trying to now look for it. Given how Khadija and her mother passed away, may they both rest in peace, a clear indication of the ways in which anti-blackness renders black lives disposable. How can we read her work as a challenge to both anti-blackness and stereotypical reductionist readings of Ireland and Christianity in the African context. If maybe you can both just say something to that in about a minute and I will add something in about in a minute. Malik. It's about Khadija's work, anti-blackness and basically moving it away from any kind of stereotype. I'm sure in terms of some of what she was going through, Nicola, it sounds from what you were saying, this is what she was fighting against. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I think I mean this work. I see this as an incredibly powerful sort of statement about, you know, her positioning herself as a black woman, you know, in a canon that is, you know, primarily white. In a context that the art world that is primarily white. And so the way that she literally positioned herself in each one of those images I think really speaks to that very powerfully. But she also was very, you know, she was a fighter, you know, she was fighting racism. She was fighting, she was fighting sort of Islamophobia. She was very focused on making sure that, you know, her work and her voice was sort of contributing as powerfully and as best she could in every way. Could you add to that, please, Malik? Yeah, I would say in support of Black Lives Matters and the colonization, that's the summit of. But again, looking as an artist, obviously I am a beneficiary of the arts council in England and I think they've been going the right way. They can support more Black artists, support, open up more and taking the lead. But it all then again comes to the course of Black Lives Matters and the colonization of everything. So there is diversity in all institutions. It is at the heart of everything that UK going forward, 2021. What's the word? That's the kind of phrase that Johnson uses. Basically like one big Britain, you know, that involves that influence all. So he's trying to make Britain pan-Africanist now. That's what he says. That's why we are Brexit. Somebody did ask about, I think this will be the last thing I'm going to answer about other artists that influence Khadija. We know that one of them was RuPaul. Maybe the question was asking Nadeefa Muhammad was asking maybe also about visual artists, but Nadeefa Shu was really into RuPaul and maybe you can see a reflection of that with one of the images that we haven't spoken about. Which one was that? Which one was the? With the flowers. I'll just put it up so that everybody can see it. I've got an image of it. Is that the tortoise? Yes. How do you pronounce that please Malik? Torto. Okay, thank you. Torto is, but I see it like as a, for flowers really, I was explaining it is mainly for decorative purposes. Right, right. But are there any visual artists, Nicola, that she was influenced by? I mean, many. She was very public when she went to the Venice Biennale in 2015, the first time she took photos of herself in front of Lorna Simpson's work and tweeted them on social media and so on. Seeing them in the flesh, seeing some of the artist's work that she had kind of looked at and admired in Venice was a massive big deal to her. And a lot of the artists, the Ellen Gallagher that were in the diaspora pavilion also had influenced her and that was a big deal for her to be actually with a lot of all the artists that were in that pavilion all inspired her. She talked about them all. She was a massive fan of many kind of, especially artists from the, in the diaspora, black artists, male and female. But yeah, in terms of popular culture, yes, Beyonce and RuPaul, they were right, I mean they were right up there, yeah. They were specifically influenced, you know, those two images as we discussed. It would be great since we're coming to the end. If I can ask the tech team behind who've been absolutely great. Thank you, Jonah. Thank you, Brett. I know you didn't want me to mention you like that, but you've been fantastic. Please, if we can put the links up again, regarding where, how people can book and also the, the blog online, but the people who are not, who won't be able to actually get to the exhibition physically so they can do that it is open until October the seventh. So I think they put in another link that I wrote about Khadija's work for Wassafiri. There's going to be another article out at the end of the month. My journal. So if you just keep in contact and you'll be seeing more information and more, more writing about Khadija's work will be shown. I'd like to thank you so much, Nicola. You've been wonderful giving us your time to share your, your, what you knew and what you and how you and Khadija met came together and work together so thank you for all the support that you gave her. Which allowed us to have this work and Malik. You've been great. Thank you for giving us so much of your knowledge and sharing and making us understand more so that we can merge the two sides of Khadija together the artist and herself, the cultural person that she was so proud to be her Gambian self. That's absolutely wonderful. So thank you everybody for sharing this evening with us. Thank you for the fantastic questions we got through most of them, I think, and this has been great and this will be recorded so you will be able to see it again share the friends. And thank you very much and have a good evening. Thank you Khadija.