 at the bottom of the video player and change from native to translated. Welcome to the digital courage memoirs. We have a mass power of digital courage on the stage, Padlún, Léna and Léna whom you've seen in the previous talk. She took a sprint and we have two more guests, Claudia Fischer and Iot. Welcome to stories from the Biergarten or is it from the wine parlour? Let's see and have fun. Yes, thank you for the strong applause that we will just imagine best regards from M26 which is the abbreviation for Marktstraße 26. It's not just day three of RC3 today but also day three of our new studio which is why things took a bit longer and the one detail or rather isn't working perfectly but we're trying and hopefully we will have fun doing that. Now the corona warning we had to do without any audience at the last minute actually because we didn't think it wise so we are talking to an empty camera but you know that you are there with a small delay of course and we just imagine our audience we open the windows regularly we use these cubes for that which you can actually buy then you can't buy them in the shop you're just promoted independently not even self-promotion the nice thing is you turn it turn it to give you to select the interval and it now says five minutes so we open the window for five minutes there'll be a bleep every now and then but you will realize it doesn't really bother us a bit and speaking of corona that is the occasion that makes that brought us here actually these this retro thing is coming into fashion everywhere this and that is being redone this linear thing tv in a tv thing is happening and i heard on the radio that the explanation by these psychologists is that with all the pandemic we kind of like to remember the good old days when we could still meet and have rallies and events and because we can't do all this the only thing we can do is to wallow in the past and maybe take a step forward with that and maybe consider what we want to do again as soon as we are allowed to and what we have done from our experiences and that's why we thought we would like to talk a bit about the old stories that are often kept aside and that normally we'd be telling each other on a sofa somewhere as we chill and that you normally wouldn't be able to tell at rc3 and because you can't you can't tell them because you spend all your time meeting people at the real congress so where does digital courage actually come from there are various reasons why we do things the way we do and behind each of these i think is a story of course we won't be able to tell them all if we are lucky we will make turn this into a longer format so this will be a small selection and then we will see the keyword of oral history is something that will feature here and we will then see how the stories that make up our past can be lessons for the future and we could perhaps say that the idea is to learn not just to tell anecdote really well sometimes perhaps but it's about as it says in the title of the event it's to make people understand how we do why we do things a certain way even though many people say no we want it differently but we have some reasons we use the yellow pins yeah the thing with the yellow pins so that is actually a hint towards our first topic because we always we often talk about frame building ramen bow in german and that means that we would prefer to meet in prefer meeting in a wine parlor to meeting in a pub and i believe that that goes down to the earliest beginnings patlouin would you like to talk about this show the first photo and you can talk what were these beginnings and what does that have to do with the what's the connection to wine parlor well the beginnings or then furbuts where that rena and i had a sequence of performances eric sati a two-minute piece but if you've repeated 840 times it takes 14 hours and we invited people into we actually look at the work of the composer who said that you should only eat white food and we furnished a room where people could listen and not just sit and listen but also move around there were beds you could sleep and a journalist had his travel typewriter and started writing reports about the event and where he was sitting that was great there were no laptops at the time this was a traveling typewriter that was very charming and what we did wasn't that we played the piano as you can see in this picture you have urich to pianists they played took turns and we did the way that ego levitt played it you saw that was becoming more and more urgent but we wanted something continuous and and stable because eric sati said if you repeat the piece 840 times you should do that at in greatest calm and relaxation he didn't prescribe that it should be repeated 840 times but you could and if you did then you should prepare yourselves in calmness and we made sure that the audience also had calmness and relaxing atmosphere they could sit down have some food have a lie down on a provisional bed and it was all in a calming white arrangement all the food was white because eric sati once claimed that he was would only eat white food which as we know it wasn't true but we know that he drank red wine and how long did it take 15 15 hours if you repeated 840 times yes and that was the duration of the event someone had to do the count and take the numbers because the genius thing in of this piece the vexation it's a fantastic piece it kind of floats on its way and people tend to not realize that it repeats because it's the opposite of an earworm if it were an earworm you would just run away screaming you'd never be able to stand this but this way people that after two hours go out to the toilet you can talk to them and say could you just whistle the melody and people cannot do it because they it kind of defies memory the nice thing is if i think of the congress music that we keep hearing in the breaks that is kind of a rebranding or a re reimagination of this and we built a framework we didn't play the piano ourselves we provided a space frame in which people could spend time and communicate and doing the whole performance we gave these people 15 hours of time which they could spend with each other where after half an hour or an hour they would notice nothing is happening this is not the big show i thought maybe something exciting would happen but no real people are just sitting down and playing the piano and other people are there hey i've got time i can talk i can get to know these people and one important thing eric satie called this music music as a piece of furniture or as a piece of room equipment and that means that the music should be perceived like a chair that you can sit down rest on you don't praise it for its genius way of it's the genius way it's four legs are built and that's eric satie composed this music exactly for background and he was a pianist in bars he played other music as background music background for what was happening in the bar but he didn't want other music to be abused as background and from that music the movement but lune and i took their name for our name for our art project art and more art as furnishing that is the publisher the name of the publishers that we the company that recreated for some of our publications and the frame we created we applied to other situations we noticed how well it works to give people a frame in which they could become active we come from the punk movement if a band is a band supposed to play oh they're too drunk so let's get some other people on the stage and it was about getting those stars down from their pedestals everyone can get involved everyone it can be empowered and encouraged i don't know how often people were booed off the stage but it gets you forward here and the vexation turned us around this piece by eric satie that the audience is the important thing that is what's happening there the people that play the piece were part of the frame that was there to make people feel comfortable and give them an opportunity to get active inspire them just enough and and give them the freedom and the pleasurable frame to make them do things and this pleasurable frame is more is the wine parlor not the pub i can talk about this we started out first people came to us the gallery that we had and talked to us and then we decided okay we'll have a regular meeting on tuesdays and we'll go to some place and that's that was a pub and that scared people away they didn't want the pub uh women would come in and would we receive a strange reception so we thought we have to change something so this this avant-garde kind of ambition needs something else a cafe a wine parlor and it worked immediately people came but the pubs um this kind of spirit this kind of intelligentsia spirit that needs something else but this this this beer attitude um the only thing that people can think of if they want the cozy situation is let's have a drink in a pub and that's not the right thing and it also has to do with the volume the noise volume it's good if you don't have to scream against a noisy background to and filter out what my opposite person is saying if you have a pleasant calm based situation but if the volume goes too high it's not good anymore and wine has something about it that is linked to inspired talk uh so that is the frame building that happens in various places and what does that frame have to look like to make the content uh as i wanted and uh how do you just make this just but lund you said you've mentioned the gallery i have a photo of that actually oh yeah so for those sitting at the m 18 our original place in magstrasse 18 magstrasse those that uh exit and enter this building you may not recognize this but this is actually the view through our shop window uh that was the gallery you had and from there you kind of my great you came to the cc yeah maybe we have to add one thing other started out in a garage we started out at a car dealership what do you see here this room with um the window large window was once a car dealership showroom and the year in the magstrasse 18 and all of that is in magstrasse 18 and this was our first exhibition 3000 polarites and this right here is a self-made computer i think it said okay and it compared tv images there were a lot of crazy exhibitions and installations there not anything that could be sold but just performative installations and stuff like that and we also had the ks computer club as visitors for three days and three nights so we didn't do art because we find it pretty because here's but because we wanted to get ahead we were in the 80s and the cold war was raging there was no future it was all desolate so we wanted to get ahead we wanted progress optimism and we wanted to do something and back then peering windows were mostly covered in old advertisements and we wanted to do something new and we did an exhibition that was even promoted by the state of north when west failure and we invited people that didn't understand themselves as artists but as gardeners or hackers or even intruders we had an intruder as well but yeah you really have to look at this image because what you see is a big monitor that was our tv on that monitor it shows a schneider pc that took one and a half day to calculate a s and a black and white stick figure and next to that is my acoustic coupler yeah that was the um a blue mate situation of peter glaser yeah there's vau holland christian wolff who's now in san francisco and also obelix and that was an event with the other five and there was an audience that knew them and yeah there's a word for that today back then it wasn't there there's there were people with the shining eyes and they had this conscience of knowing where to go and where to take things and this is what we were looking for we didn't find it in art art became boring at some point we also didn't know where to go but we wanted to try ourselves out and these shining eyes were interesting and fascinating and we just noticed we wanted to be part of it no we didn't want to be part of it but we wanted to co-create we realized that a new world um had been created when was that that was in 1985 december 85 exactly and we had a dad xp and a lent mu i and we read the news from the next day that wasn't intended by the washington post but it wasn't illegal because the government didn't know that we were doing that so there were no laws against that so all good we saw wow that's a whole new world and this is something we can be part of and we can co-create and this is not something we can just watch this is something that hasn't been finished yet and we want to be part of this creation yeah and it's art and culture and it's framing so in order to use a computer you have to um you have to put on in all screws and put it all together and hackers open it all up christian bol said you have to go to the ks computer congress and i went there and i experienced it and i talked i told it to brina and she said it's not enough to have this once a year we want to have it once a month and the people from our group were all about jess and they didn't want and a change and there was this funka ulmen ball is where we had a public domain and in 1987 we were welcomed and we were overwhelmed by the welcoming there were 100 people in front of the door so a mass of people hardly anyone had their own computer we didn't either but we organized some c 64 you can see there and on the left of the camera and at the c 64 you can see oliver from billyfield who made our invitations on the c 64 and we will see him later again so just as a small spoiler and then you went into the file sharing business well in order to share files you have to be online so we just built a frame and people had their computers at home and what people did was swap floppy disks with information so that you were even able to do something on these machines but there was also fascinating because software back then was often secured by copy protection and you had to get around that copy protection before you could use the copy one or the other member of the audience may remember and i think that was an ideal schooling because many people back then learned how to program the first program of one of our friends who we know since then from the public domain actually wrote a floppy disk monitor to remove copy protection and some other people enhanced those programs and fixed some errors and wrote some intros showing what they themselves could do and that was a lively atmosphere and scene that used the full potential of the computers back then we even used the complete atari screen which wasn't intended by the manufacturer but you talked about bitnapping what is that i thought it was file sharing well it was the first time that from the group of young people approached us and said it's cool what you're doing but would you like to do a copy party and we said what do you mean and he said yeah like invite all of those people who share programs and you have to know that back then there was this wicked way of contacting people or postcards sent anonymously so you could go to the post office and buy this card of post this kind of postcard and you could get your mail with that card anonymously and people did that extensively with floppy disks and shared floppy disks in that way and the real copy party we thought we wanted to do that correctly and invite all of the people that our boys were in contact with so people from Saarland from Holland from all over the world came over or all over Europe probably more like and we sent out an invitation card even and all of those were numbered so that they were secure against forging forgery so yeah they were unproachable and this numbering also incentivized people not to give the invitations to others so yeah only those invited were able to join yeah that was through the contacts we had from Bielefeld and who we shared those special postcards with and they checked in at magstrasse 18 and there was a greeting show money someone arrives with their computer we called it bit naming a bitnapping party and they said we want to go to the bitnapping party so they arrived with their computers and the one who had the most addresses said wait who are you and do you have this in that game and he said well i sent that to you last week and this is how we verified that those were the correct people so then we let them in so many young people checked in and came in with their computer so that was hard to hide but we had a tremendous party as you can see here in the world war two bunker and nobody could leave for security reasons so we weren't discovered mobile phones weren't a thing we kicked for everyone it was a great party it was fantastic I was there with Ralf for the second check in and there was 40 Dutch people we waited for and they just weren't arriving and in the end we just went and 10 minutes after we left magstrasse 18 two boys rang to check in we're just pressing the bell and someone tapped on their shoulder and said you're arrested and they were brought to the police office had to empty their pockets they just rang the bell is a bell is that is that criminal it just turned out they had empty ploppy disks and an invitation so in the meantime magstrasse 18 had been discovered but not the bunker where the party was yeah back then it was already impossible to discover and follow the traces of all the nerds but something happened later that people spent the night and we've had a beautiful breakfast set up in the gallery behind the large window and these two boys came back along who had had this unpleasant experience with the police and the one said my friend who was arrested here yesterday we just wanted to tell you that and warn you and yeah some were kind of scared by that and well for a few days then nothing happened in about four days later we just had put back the software for the little Atari into back into the suitcase and and carefully we had this located it outside and we just got it back and then three gentlemen with moustaches came around the corner we know what's happening now of course and that was our first police raid and the first and the reason why we have these info signs here which you can buy in the shop how to behave how to re respond to a police search and this was built by another group we can buy this sticker in the shop end of the advertising block and what happened then was these people entered and said this is the criminal police house search I said a moment please went back to our guest room said pateleon the police are here pateleon goes to the front and said gentlemen you are fairly you are kind of late four days after the event and we then read the protocol that was made from from that visits our lawyer made it accessible to us and that said obviously the apparently they were warned fantastic and that meant that they didn't really expect to find anything of relevance and what they were interested to buy were the stickers with the chaos knot which were which were printing at the time and things like that and they tried to prove that we had put kids in front of computers and chain them forced them to keep exchanging discs discs to earn the living which was not what we had done so the procedure was simply terminated before it came to any courts and we we were just doing it the regular way and said stop we'll call our lawyer first and the lawyer came along and he kind of acted very well and it was very funny and of course police rate isn't funny the first wasn't and the second wasn't either but we won't talk about the second it's going to become a serious maybe then so yeah it is kind of unnerving these people come into your private place and they can look around everywhere even the molded apples in the in the kitchen so these were people from the commerce department of the police we know them by now because they contacted us every now and then about the tour exit note that we run so that gave us street credibility um but i would have gladly done without this and that of course is why you know how important it is to think about this in advance how do i deal with the situation because well the brain doesn't really function that well what's the number of your lawyer i should be in here no it has been your head because if it's actually needed which one do you mean by the way i haven't memorized it either and i'm annoyed at myself and it's good to have the sign and and note the number on this sticker and we have it next to our entrance door and because that means that in the moment you are more calm and i have to kind of take a small detour that wasn't a great but a small detour one of our guys said oh let them come with the search they won't find anything in my place and we thought well let's see so we conducted a house search at his place at four in the morning or six no maybe i don't know either four or six in the morning but lune thinks we went there at four in the morning but i think six was enough in our circles so we rang the bell i kept ringing the bell wait until someone would come out and banged against the door and he he had a real horror trip and we conducted a real house search and it was as scary as hell and we he was there with with a baseball bat or something behind the door and that was the sensitive address list but we found a letter we found a letter to one of his exchange partners not the address list and there's a there's some evidence in a photo later right so we enjoyed that we trained an exercise for a house search because we knew that in this situation you really forget everything and after the second search that we won't talk about because we're overrunning completely i can see claudia is standing waiting for her turn after the second search you actually wrote the opening hours i posted them at door because then you noticed people won't come outside opening hours 14 to 18 hours 2 to 6 p.m and the genius thing is if you mentioned your opening hours it would be inappropriate to break in and and break through the door as a police person so you go at the time when you meet these people and that is an interesting point of information so if you would like to select when the police should come display your opening hours well it won't quite work and at a private flat store but um that will then get us to the next time and the next issue simply to ensure that poor claudia doesn't have to wait too long if we're going to bed so we move forward and quite often we'd have this david against goliath situations uh and we often thought we are so small that's not possibly we can't possibly achieve that and you are always very calm about this so i will now ask claudia onto the stage who said she'd be willing to take my seat and maybe she can talk about why these situations this david goliath situations don't scare us anymore i have to say to me it wasn't the david against goliath situation at all we just slipped into the stop rf rf id campaign against metro the large retail corporation it just through a chain of events it it turned into this it's about stop rf id we should give some background and we asked claudia claudia can you get the keyboard over um yes as i changed i found a button a sticker and we have some of these in the shop too but it looks very nice it looks old and bad and simple and this is an original that i used when i came to the metro company as a journalist but i'll start from the beginning it began in autumn 2003 when we awarded the big brother award the german big brother award for their test supermarket called supermarket they've called future store in reinherk near dusburg in western germany so they had these price tags that would radio a unique id for logistics and sooner later surely this would lead to the customer's data being registered if you pay you can link this individual item to the customer that was the basic idea and we wrote an unusual kind of award speech not the usual critical award speech this award goes to it was more like a future scenario the story and that went viral pretty well it was published marion z finds a note for a fine in in her letter box the industry hated it um you can still read it on the big brother awards website big brother awards dot de and this interpreter translated this story into english by the way and we found an activist from the u.s catrin orbex anti rfid activist uh we were the only ones in germany dealing with this so she came over for a talk and i think she said she would only come she would give no to entice her to come we will tell her we have this interesting star that you can visit there is rfid in the wild in germany which was not the case in the u.s and that interested her and that attracted her and so on the sunday we had a public domain with her and on this the saturday before we went to that future store we actually picked her up from the airport into sort of and from there the the stores on the way we went there directly and all that we are i'm saying now took place in a complete state state of complete steep deprivation and we had this american with us who was wide awake and still or perhaps exactly because of that it worked so well and uh we visited that store and we received an endless amount of information we had press people with us the metro corporation had bought their press team along there were 10 people around a single shopping basket there are pictures and we kind of it was all in the days for us we we uh so much happened which shopping trolleys which displays are there which opportunities to delete the number and you put the scales in the veg department recognized the banana and we tried to record everything and but it was very hard and we had a whole group of people of the fee but with us some people were just bored and that paid off in the end and on the sunday we had the public domain event with kathrin and we had a small device or you could show um what happens if you hold the device to the scanner and by the way this interpreter had his first interpreting stunts they're interpreting from english to german and suddenly we noticed oh the number changed we weren't holding a shampoo bottle up to the scanner what happened there so we tried around and what ultimately emerged that the customer card contained a chip payback card the customer loyalty card someone actually asked it from the audience here this is the philadelphia cheese the cheese uh so we can show you the various ids from the same product and someone asked how about the customer card the loyalty card we want we didn't believe it they would have told us we thought and they didn't patina you've got one of these haven't you and you brought one of these along and that was our trump card and patina held the card up to the scanner and said pling and the number came up and we couldn't believe our eyes and and i remember how kathrin was sitting there with 20 seconds speechless and then she said holy cow yeah and what she said was that this was the first time worldwide that customer loyalty cards were rfid chipped which made that was the last step in making the link to the individual possible and we hadn't been told this will happen but done in secret this told us so much but this they hadn't said but patina out of boredom had had asked to be given a loyalty card she went through the procedure of registering she said i haven't got this this customer loyalty card yet uh it can be used in several shops it was a complete coincidence and we're completely crazy and on the day we talked with kathrin and her and she said this is huge we can use this globally as a first and we have to do something and we were thinking the whole night through and the next day we called metro and said we know that you've chipped your customer cards you know that you didn't tell us now we need a statement from you because we are going to publish this and what kathrin did on said on the sunday is that these chips and these card can be x-rayed so if you have an x-ray device you can see that the device the chip is that we need this photo and i was working for the public broadcaster wdr and i had just been visited i had just visited a hospital and i went back there asked the doctor surgery and i had called them i said i need to do this and they said crazy dear you but yes why not and the x-rayed and it was super obvious there was an old x-ray film that was there and we still have the photo and i took a photo with the digital camera and that saved us and the camera team actually melted down this slide they held it up to a stage light so the the valuable image melted down but i had had this digitally taken photo and that saved us the original was lost and i then had a date for the public broadcaster as a journalist i said okay i have to get off now my mobile is off i have to get out after two nights i have to get away i hadn't had a lot of sleep and i had maybe the least amount of sleep and i came back and there was just one call on my mobile and that was rena saying we have a problem metro has responded and they sent us a photo of a dvd stand where it said there is a chip in the customer loyalty card a warning that was the place displayed to the customers in the shop and i was and i'm so sure that these stickers haven't weren't there when we visited but we cannot prove it anymore said rena and despite all that it's completely scary to warn customers of the chip in the loyalty card at the dvd shelf not where you are given the card but that's what they said what they had said in the response so in the car i said i think i have a photo of that dvd shelf so let me get home let me check and we were speechless as i said and rena said they they have these monitors where you can look at dvds so take a photo and i thought i don't really know what's happening with these monitors at the dvd shelf so let's take a photo anyway so complete with with the chart and on the photo and i had the permission from the father so it was really in the complete days i had no idea what the value of that was but we had this photo then so we could prove that uh there were only two three dvds that has changed position but that on monday they had added these warnings to disprove what we did and to prove that this wasn't the case on the saturday so they had really that was such a lie and that really killed it an obvious lie and that was what motivated me the most i have experienced a lot but to know that there is a professional pr department that it was really lying to me into my face that really uh when kathleen was back in in the on the plane i said i i'm really going to i was quite furious yes you you were furious you seemed like you really the only thing you wanted to do was work against rfid and i said uh come on uh i really had to restrain you um yeah and on the tuesday after that when we had the regular meeting we talked about it and they had several people with us that had been uh that had seen this and that went to us because of that discovery and that were motivated to to come so that gave us the impetus yeah we had we're 10 or 12 yeah um not a mass of people but we had 60 members at the time but the the point if you say that they had lied to us in our to our face that was a new experience for you we uh prepared a press release and we had put up these two photos the one that they put the claim for metro that they had put up warnings at the deputy shelf and the saturday photo and the monday photo proof that they had lied and uh i had then i was on the phone to journalists for example the financial attention list dealt with trade and i said to her uh you probably won't believe it but uh this spokesperson had just lied blankly lied to me i i'm speechless and the lady from the trade department at ft said oh you know i am dealing with these people every day and every day people are lying to me i believe you um a fantastic article appeared in the financial times that took apart the issue and that led to the fact that the uh stock market news and the public tv uh linked a fall in the stock value to the uh the debate about the chip card if we would have known what put options are and if we would have liked to play xeno maybe we could have financed for what a bit by betting on a falling stock value okay but there was something before that we did a demonstration you can see it there we organized the protest i don't know how well you can see it but this image went around the world it was printed in the us in australia germans protesting against rfid their friends of mine here on the picture from disledorf but also many people motivated across the internet from heiser forums yeah that was the first time people just took to the streets without a big um call to action and also i bought you something after that we printed postcards um christmas poke postcards and sent them to a metro and i hope you can see it and then there is a follow-up story that happened the year after which i can shortly tell you yeah we we just hustled through it was a worldwide event you have to say and the interesting thing was that for people in the us it was unbelievable that people are so worked up about something that they take to the streets in a snow chaos yeah and we pulled that through i know that one woman from reinberg approached us and said i'm so thankful because i'm telling my neighbors all the time incredible things are happening and if these things um well get through the consequences will be bad and they declare me crazy and she just felt understood by us and they knew that there were other people with the same concerns because data protection wasn't really an issue back then and the good thing was that because of the demonstration metro wrote us a letter that they will exchange all the cards and never again use a chip yeah they sent us a fax where they wrote that because of the very emotional reaction the cards will be we will be taken back and exchanged with cards without chips of course without any logical reason so yeah that was a victory for us and for me that was the point where i saw how many people congratulated us and then said wow you can actually achieve something and started becoming active because they were now they had now seen that this was possible you can achieve something if you really get behind it and really get the knowledge and skills you need and i think for the data protection movement that was a milestone definitely in germany and in europe yeah you have to know that we were about 60 and six or 65 um members and metro was the third largest a worldwide wide trade group so they really know how to fight dirty and we were able to stand up against them and we were warned against they really said we you need to keep your check record clean you have to really make sure that your cleaning lady is moonlighting and so on and we thought that was that was um exaggerated but this is exactly what happened there was a an event from the um political information agency of the government that was funded by metro and i went there of course i didn't do any activism there i just listened to their explanations and knew that i couldn't talk critically to any of their uh journalist colleagues and there was a misunderstanding where someone said i was from the um state information agency i whereas i just introduced myself as a journalist from the w dr that was what i said and they misunderstood it but uh metro then wrote me a letter i went hold it directly into the camera in april 2005 so 15 months after the protest to the um direction of the studio where they say they're concerned about the state of the um public broadcasting agencies and that i shouldn't be able to work as a journalist for them they didn't just write a write a letter and but also posted a photo where i'm reading the low ratio which is totally isn't a secret because it's publicly available as a video i read that speech there and the photo was sent it was an evening there was an evening event from our studio and my boss said um we have to talk and i thought oh my god what have i done but yeah he said we have to look at that that metro apparently says um i can't work as a journalist anymore and my boss was very understanding and he replied that he was actually worried about metro if they were this afraid of a local journalist and this could have cost me my job if i didn't have a clean track record and i didn't have that fantastic boss yeah that was really a good boss you had back then and this is really someone you want at us um in this position so also i've always been clear about that i couldn't do data protection issues because i'm privately an activist so i always refuse those jobs and this is how i could remain in the business they even wanted to do a press campaign and i said no what's protecting me right now is to distance myself on that situation and we went through with that but later i gave an interview about it two or three years later i was in contact with monitor at that time and a monitor journalist approached me about this apparently rumour is very quick in that community and it can really cost you a job so years later this story could have went badly for me if i'd done something wrong so yeah fight against Goliath but keep your track record clean yeah this is something that's really important especially if you like if you step out of line like for example using illegal devices to have proof about illegal activities yeah you really should keep your track record clean something i learned from the metro story was that coincidence just writes the best stories we could have never done that with our work coincidence just played into that so if you were ever to make an edwards noden movie about this people would say it's so unrealistic but yeah this is how it happens and we're also telling this because um this coincidence was so important it was basically magic it doesn't exist but it works so that such coincidence has happened and also that you see them and see the opportunity this is the important thing she's saying that because she's less esoteric than me so i'll pass the mic now thank you very much claudia that was really good rena said this story was important um so i did i know the situation she's always right it turns out in the end so yeah just doing something um just starting out and working on it and not being discouraged by doubts then you can force down the metro group so now let's take a step back and get back to the congress rena you were one of the first women on stage at the congress what was that like i think there was two women right yeah the other was ushi was a la witzel from frankfort who i'm still in contact with great woman so patlun and i came to the congress we were carrying gray boxes that we still have with some sort of stuff i think we had an atari and we had black um pata clavas uh from canada because it was really cold so we were fully masked entering and people were opening the door and saying hi rena hi patlun yeah i was feeling well and at ease right at this moment because this is where i belong and when walking around i was wondering well where are the other women they were 350 boys and i met one other woman ushi great woman but she did the chaos cafe she bake the buns and this is the moment i swore to myself well i like cooking but this was the moment i swore to myself i'll never work the kitchen at the chaos computer congress and i was asking myself why aren't any other women coming what is keeping them from coming here are they afraid that they won't be acknowledged or so i tried to invite women to the congress from the university of brahman from the computer science a group they even wrote a book about women in computer science and i invited the women to the next congress and it turned out well first women had a lot to do between christmas and the year for their family and the other they were afraid of being laughed at by 350 computer freaks and i said okay if you don't want i'll do it alone so we just did a workshop we sent out invitations for chaos computer congress we really got into organizing and acquiring people and this is how we got the hexen workshop and a lot of women actually came yeah the word hexen we had that as a fifth a public domain in the invitation yet actually padloons invention the term printed with our new needle printer an invitation for hackers and hexen so the hexen workshop and this is where actually women came felt invited and that was fascinating maybe if i can quickly just tell you that i have been workshop afterwards so one of the women said i only do graphics on the mac and now they said i write texts when asked what they were doing on the computer and a third said i only do unix only and i said wait do you hear yourselves what are you saying if a guy was saying sitting here he would say i'm the unix cracker and all other systems are shite is it like that yeah this was an eye opener and we talked a lot about what annoyed us and one of those points was that women said men don't really try when explaining things to us if i'm stuck at something my boyfriend doesn't say why don't you try this or that or why don't you type in this command or maybe try that website no he takes my keyboard and just says uh let me do it instead of him explaining it to me and then at this um hexen workshop i got to know barbara twins from hamburg who back then left in berlin and we said let's try and ask hackers to explain a technical topic for us and we did that at the first congress between the there was in february at the well in 1990 there was the first congress in east berlin at the house of talents and there barbara and i filmed for two and a half hours which we turned into an eight minute video clip and we shortened that to five minutes and we'll show it to you now and there's a lot of fascinating interesting people in there we even um put subtitles on it yesterday so that you can see who is in there and who is who yeah so there's a lot of um the pioneers from ccc so let's look at this shortened version and you can look at the long version on our youtube channel digital courage so what is it called um how do you a printer driver drives the printer well no somehow how do you call it there's a camera not yet but this is not breakfast tv is it no i don't know printer driver is well they really don't really touch my area of interest of printer driver or that's difficult uh it is a program text processing program no no it's either a part of of text program helping you to communicate to the printer or it helps you to send the data to the printer what is a printer driver well i've actually given up communication with printers a printer driver there's someone who's standing next to the printer with a whip and says how come on printer was that wrong well that is something like like an on an old slave boat the the drummer there it's a driven piece of software i come off the connection between computer and printer right software mostly i don't really know i have to tell the printer what to print right it translates what the program wants to execute whatever it executes it has one kind format of executable program and it translates that into a certain format for an individual printer it sounds interesting i don't know a printer driver translates a certain output format by a program into a certain input format for an individual type of printer which is uh american standard interface or something like that and you know it says american it seems like the whole world uses it uh it yells a printer driver it's a necessary part it's the necessary information software that you need to have your bits and bytes uh in the right form so that the printer can take it and so that the type x y of the printer can deal with it um the program says print bold and the printer knows it's supposed to print in bold and it does whatever it has to do with its printer to print in bold uh information is transferred so if something is to be printed in bold so it has to print a driver has to be able to tell the printer to print in bold uh hang on uh and yeah something and then there is something like the umlauts they have to be made done right and if any problems like that occur and the printer doesn't do anything then that is mostly the fault with the printer driver you have a text processing or graphics program and to make that print uh talk to a specific printer and if the printers have different printer drivers so that they can be talked to do you want to do it no i don't have a printer okay um i believe i assume that you want me to show you want to show me using highfaluting words i'm not going to do it um i want to maintain my information self-determination filmed in february 1990 at the cocon in the house of young talents in east berlin shortened and subtitled in 2020 so now we know what a printer driver is now we all know and it starts from the beginning press pause please press pause um never mind so we now know everyone knows what a printer driver is now and of course you can now imagine why it wasn't so simple in those days to find out or to have technology explained to you because there was a lot of airing and humming uh some people simply didn't know and wanted to overplay that and and make fun make make light of that and some really tried uh pango or wop uh really answering very seriously and trying to express it in an understandable way and others were simply talking nonsense and as i cut the video edited it and kept looking at these extracts to find the right snippets it was using eumatic at the time in a studio at the i don't know who um i realized that stefan weyroch always when he talked with barbara raised his one eyebrow and when he talked with me he would raise his other eyebrow barbara blonde with a camera whom he didn't know and he didn't know that she was a cool programmer and he knew me so he knew this woman has to be taken seriously barbara then generations before the year 2000 i gave an introduction to the uh millenium bug to prevent the catastrophe from happening okay but jumping back in time a little feminism is something that you uh inserted in various places and also in 1989 when you went became an internet provider didn't you could just describe it that way i wouldn't describe it that way uh but yes you can see here the bionic um that was a precursor i like to explain that what we did at the time was well we was something like an internet provider which was nonsense we ran a mailbox system uh storing forward that was a wonderful piece of software uh bionic it's the name we gave it be the felt mailbox um and but also because we wanted to have wanted to give it a certain life of its own something organic from technology can i here can i detect the frame building from that yes so we wanted people that had an enthusiasm for technology and were using a mailbox so we were calling our way through to them we had a modem from early on uh and because we misheard something i heard 50 euros and it was then 350 not euro but german mark so we had the modem and uh we caught ourselves into those mailboxes and yeah it was fascinating and it was fun and still what was really interesting is that we wanted our own system we wanted to try what you can actually do with that rather than just discussing technology downloading software uh we didn't download much software we were not the kind of pirates copiers but that was the communication it was about communication about texts uh about how to deal with the new medium the system operator you as a user could talk chat to the system operator but these people were busy doing other things they they should do other things that shouldn't should be communicating not with the operator but with other people we wanted to extract ourselves from that and this mailbox what we did there we called it our Bielefeld experiment and we wanted to find that we knew that this kind of communication would permeate through the whole world however people would defend against that and resist it it would become we knew that this was going to happen we wanted to find out how this should be dealt with because we had people that would send one message that was charged at 20 deutsche mark and that was completely crazy there was a professional system called geonet and the interface looked very much like what we decided for maybe the other round ours looked a bit like geonet maybe they well let's just start from where we were geonet for us the precursor i think pretty i'm pretty sure and you can see it's simply text on the monitor and you could enter simple commands uh german words german words as commands such as read or send in german you could abbreviate this into two letters and that way you could start working at a very short after a very short amount of learning there was a graphical interface hypertext like well no but before we get lost in the details somehow you realized that data protection is rather important yes this is the way it works you see the door there next to veena's head and if you took that door and went into the into the kitchen to the right you could always look at the screen because it could have crashed we always were looking at a monitor something is happening so you were curious and you see maybe i can just insert there are two protagonists in the story and their names were changed by the editors i don't know where in which way they were changed they are now called frank and martina okay so we look at the monitor and at one glance we see what's on the monitor there's not a lot of information there so i saw Frank was just logged in and wrote send martina that's what he typed in and the first timeline was dear martina and that the moment was oh hang on frank has something going on with martina but i also realized immediately this is just not the way to go i this is none of my business if someone discreetly if frank or martina will tell me discreetly but not i as the operator i shouldn't have that information that is none of my business and this frank the name is very different we are still very good friends with frank we want to stay that way so he came to us on the same day because he had he would spend a lot of time with us and i told him frank i saw you're voting to martina i think this is none of our business you are not going to leave before i can't see anymore who's writing to whom you don't want to see this we don't want to see when messages are written and we don't want to spy into users mailboxes uh it was inboxes and that was the beginning of encryption in the software the mailboxes the inboxes were no longer readable by the operators even not if i would be looking into the hard disk and the the folder there and i actually inspected the files sold for this user that was no longer possible because it was encrypted using the password of that individual user and before that you can see what we were seeing is what other people were doing at the time on the computer we could read it all and machines can still do that and get the information out so we were the surveyors the spies we and i realized uh we had this was a late another late evening experience when someone tried three times to log in and the way he kept correcting himself typing i met him on the market the next day and he said you had a lot of whiskey inside you yesterday didn't you and he said how do you know and and that is all possible automatically but but at the time it was a huge realization what can i actually find out about others smallest details uh where people and we had a lot of people communicating and so who communicates with whom i realize and that has to be concealed because this is really dangerous information if we were evil people which sadly we are not um well i'll take back the sadly um then we could have done incredible things with that but uh what we wanted to do is a better digitally connected world and we dealt with the software we met the programmers we made suggestions and what's the direction we go and together with that software we were in a team the software is called sabros the sabros the hellhound and it's a three-headed hound isn't it well the hound is a bit harmless it's the hellhound the people that know the early mailbox scene know that there was another program called feto feto is the cute dog the the pet the uh kind of a harmless uh mixed race dog and that's the explanation for the name because that's the way the computer had been built so feto was the system where a lot of control was exercised or could be exercised where the operators were reading things and even censoring private messages came from one person to another they went in between there if they found it inappropriate and we had live reports at a public domain one of our events so we didn't want that and the sabros software uh was very convenient was very that was the wilder kind of variant that always finds its way of getting one head out of the sling and that was the name of the software that was run at the bionic mailbox and you could either go there directly and enter commands at the command line and there was a so-called friend that I could give a quick call to and get a compiled file from uh put down the phone and the uh computer at home would then unpack the file giving me my own interface and that many possible for many people to use the same phone line before that there was phone calls charged by time and every few minutes more money was charged and uh the longer you were connected the longer it the more expensive it was and we had people that uh had uh were in large depth with the german post office and the calls were long distance calls and there were public messages uh where the users could pick them up using a local call from their next mailbox and uh their next hub and uh the messages that were sent again were distributed with local calls it took a while to distribute these messages it was low tech and low cost and it made a lot of things possible for social society movements environmental movements the Chernobyl Chernobyl accident was a recent event at the time and people started to exchange radioactivity measurements and things like that and here in the picture um other than the post which you see back there were the PCs with the modem where which you could connect to each other using novel links yeah and they were running MS-DOS and yeah where i'm pointing you can see yeah unregistered modems now we have to get ahead i noticed that we had to take a lot of topics out of our schedule but um well we mentioned who bought a few times and we wanted to explain why we changed the name but this uh yeah this topic had to go there's a video where we explained it why we chose the name and so on and why we call digital courage now and you can find it under um digital courage video and you can find it there under the keyword uh foobot so foobot uh this is used to be our name yeah so those were the foobot times next topic something about telephones and the local tariff someone once said a journalist i think that in zagreb no in sarajevo there should be a bielefeld memorial yes it was in zagreb so why should there be a bielefeld memorial in zagreb and who said it that was at an event many years later the reason was that after the civil war in porma yugoslavia started in 1991 uh someone came to us who was a peace worker there and who tried to teach violence free resistance to people for example to protect buildings from being um raided so blocking them without violence and he worked with troops peace troops on both sides and he noticed um that he was running into trouble because communication didn't work because of all the different republics that were founded that blocked ways of communication so you couldn't just phone from syria to um radios moldavia and so on and the radio services were only heating the civil war movement and it was so important for those peace troops to have a means to communicate with and erik bachmann who was a draft dodger from the us he was very much involved there and he invented a chain of faxes so uh in in syria they sent effects to london in london they squashed it back into the device and sent it to syria that was very expensive because of the graphical transmission and also the quality was bad and it took a lot of time and it was a lot of work and then they said well isn't there a thing called mailbox that it should be easier and so he came to us and asked us all of those questions how does it work and how do you install it and yeah he really got into it and he started installing mailboxes over there and there was a whole network that was called samia means uh for peace like peace like mere like the space station and they were locally run by peace troops that again had contact with us in bielefeld because the trick was they couldn't phone between syria and crecia but um corrin telephony was still possible so this is how bielefeld became the transmission station for phone calls between sarge rep belgrade sarajevo tusla also in bosnia pristina and i'm missing one lubiana yeah in slovenia so there is a lot happening there sarajevo was under occupation for three years and they smuggled computers into the city using tunnels and they managed to have three telephone lines and smuggled them into the country because back then in germany a new telephone line was 100 deutscher mark and in bosnia it was 1000 or 1500 but they managed to acquire different telephone three different telephone lines and you have to imagine 5000 people in sarajevo used this mailbox yeah in order to contact their relatives and not be cut off from the rest of the world because uh that basically made them go crazy and all that ran over bielefeld yeah of course our telephone bill was insane and um something like 8 000 deutscher mark but erik bachmann managed to um file an application with the open society and they took care of the telephone costs that was a great project i later visited sarajevo for a legal uh issue and i was looking for a lawyer who speaks german and who consulted me and at the end i asked um so what do i owe you and he said nothing i used samia and that was really important for us uh and he explained that with the samia network he found his brother who was lost and could tell his mother that yeah finding your loved ones against this is something that we can't appreciate in the society we have right now with our all our riches and prosperity and yeah we also learned that you have to be really careful with certain information we learned that in war countries you really have to encrypt and have to take care of your information because you could be shot and this is not a joke wow that's a heavy topic and you can see how important communication is in peace work and anti-conflict work well that fits our next topic let's get right into it and do the time warp again we'll need another video no the video is only at the end we did a little bit of preparation so we have another guest it's the active congress because we organized different events for networking in the german data protection movement for all those who want to be active yeah unfortunately because of corona virus um there is a lot of standstill so control room can we add yot and we don't know where we can see or hear him i can hear him hi hi here i am here you are now tell us what are your best memories from the congresses the best memories are the community and the motivation you get there if you live at in a rural area not berlin where so many activists are around every corner the active congress is one of those events where you can meet peers and get motivated because if you spend much time in your small village it's difficult to find the motivation why am i even doing this and the active congress makes this it is completely different and you get to know people and afterwards you go home with new friends and new motivation you know what you're doing it for you get told great stories about what people have done you're not alone you can commiserate with other activists get input from them get ideas inspiration for how to make things better you can visit workshops and also the socializing in the evening after the workshops is really really important to me sit together have a beer or maybe play table tennis or go bowling whatever that's really great and i met a lot of great people there also from digital courage uh from also on encryptive parties workshops and crypto parties on the active congress thank you for your report anything else you want to add because we now have a video to show which we produced yeah if you have the chance absolutely go there also you can find a european replacement with freedom not fear because active congress is pretty much german specialized now we wanted to present the active congress to you this video is from oops i don't know when but yeah it's in hattingen it started in hamburg and then we moved to yeah we went to hattingen in the red house we would like to have active congresses again let's see video when corona virus will permit it so it's a little bit of an older video but maybe you will recognize one or the other person let's play it networking the a case with one another the working groups ak is short for a working group t e v v is for vorratsdatenspeicherung so um saving data yeah data retention the c for ccc c for ccc big e for electronic administration z for sensors so something to see you talk about an email list for and days and days and here you can just um talk about it in three minutes active congress is organized every year by digital corage easy and it's starting from the beginning again are we back again well we lost padelun this is what happens in live events um we need bio breaks he'll be back soon this was the active congress we have a similar europe wide event with freedom not fear we also have a video but because of how far time has progressed we'll skip this video but for the next topic we need padelun so we might just as well show it freedom not fear is a pilot project and i'm sure that we'll be able to continue this round of talks are they then the active congress freedom not fear is continued in the digital realm and has taken place also with a little world that was nice yeah that's something you can look at but now let's get to the next topic one of my favorite topics so we have to do it there was this product well there are several products in our shop we haven't really talked about the shop yet why how that came about and why it's needed but one product there is part has just come out and it's linked to the camp in the netherlands or one of the camps there and that is has a very nice arc around it so i'd love to hear from you about that yeah it was education for nerds right so we have doing of this in the playlist here starts while i fiddle around okay the issue of video surveillance in the early 2000s that was something that kept us quite busy because of various pilot projects that were happening and changes to the respective police laws and we drove it to the extreme and had this and we imagined video surveillance of public toilets of toilets and that we thought that was the worst thing that could happen so we had this action that is we designed these stickers that said in dutch english and german for reasons of hygiene this toilet is monitored by video thank you for your cooperation and if you have if you ever joined the workshop on social engineering that one dutch person ran you know that you always have to give a reason if you want to extract information from someone or get them to do something that they actually do not want then you state some kind of reason for security reasons and here for hygiene reasons this toilet is monitored complete nonsense but people kind of understand it's incredible and padloon and i went to that camp in the netherlands that was held on a university campus uh there was tents everywhere the whole infrastructure that hacker camps have and uh there were all kinds of dixie toilets the small toilets the cubicles there so okay we have set what a shitty job and we stuck these signs put these signs up there and made sure that they were all and supplied with with our stickers and that created some quite funny effects and we were able to see how even hackers believe things that are just put up there as a claim and you know although it says big brother words dot d e at the bottom there yeah that was a small hint but not everyone saw and some funny things happened and we noticed that in a tent there was a hotly it was hotly debated whether that was actually permissible in the netherlands and if it was permissible if perhaps even one toilet should be supplied without a camera just one which would have been completely sufficient for thousands of people of course and uh i'll swear people said i'm just going to visit the toilets that don't have the stickers and of course some people had taken them down already as a souvenir and um of course but but the crowning bit was that um someone came to us and said ah some of us have gone crazy i've seen people that that take took a toilet apart and the day after we were sitting at our nice little fuel boat presents and we had these stickers lying around there for sale and uh we had all kinds of things there and then someone put them there and someone came oh no they are from youth you did those we took a toilet apart to find the camera yeah hackers right hackers unscrew things take it apart and look for that they didn't find anything right they didn't find anything and so we had these stickers just in germany we did them for the shop and they are a complete hot seller for flat chair kitchens or toilets in flat chairs and also for spray passing them on and i said we are fighting against video surveillance and that played a role later on uh but the brief take the detail by the shop okay so we had the shop we started it in 2004 because through the snow we couldn't go we couldn't go go by car because the roads were blocked in the winter so we couldn't take the t-shirts with us that we wanted to give these people i think that was the rally that was mentioned earlier so volunteer access just to put this shop together as a website where these teachers could be bought and it was great because we could spread things and so we thought that this toilet sticker was so successful that it would get people thinking so well about video surveillance and the nonsense of it and of course it's always nonsense so we wanted to spread the word so we thought these a five format a five format stickers in several languages that wouldn't be possible cost in terms of cost so we made these very small stickers they were fairly cheap and we bundled 10 together so that people wouldn't just have the one uh so we charged five german marks at the time so we wanted them to have one for their own and place and five to give away to kind of spread the thing exponentially we all know this know this by now and by having this kind of shop we could have people order them at any time and and back them up post them and they were successful and it always worked and displayed a big part in the next story they work until today and the next story is one of my favorites but i think rena can tell it nicer or you tell it together no no i'll just interrupt her i'll just slap you um so this is axel our volunteer hi axel in our shop window he had the display window there was this campaign and here are some foot members soldering rfid detectors which we also sold in the shop the the shop became the support tool for campaigns so we have mailboxes there but please continue the story this is what this is about this is what this next story is about right so the red green coalition in north rhein-westphalia the governing coalition had decided to allow video surveillance in public spaces around the year two thousand ninety nine two thousand and of course we were against that but the um government in dusseldorf were just playing their devils and they ran the pilot project to find that video surveillance is completely sensible sensible thing to do it would reduce crime and this pilot of all places they held in bielefeld in just in front of our noses in a park around the corner that's where the venue is that we where we have held the big rubber awards for many years it's a nice park in the inner city with a very normal crime rate i would say and that was mainly composed of drug trafficking drug drug dealing and all that very normal um however the within the social democrat green party coalition the deal was that they would reduce the age at which migrants would be accepted and on the other hand the green party would accept the video surveillance and we yeah strange deals right and uh we were against that and there was a conference by the delegates for the green party and the greens from bielefeld were on our side uh and all north rhein-westphalia delegates met so we said we put up we will have a stand there we this is our info display but when we were registering for that they decided there would be no space sadly for our stand it doesn't look like it does it um so we used one of the techniques that we like to use to the how do you hack your way into a party conference you come up become very early in the morning if i'm the first to just put up your place and someone from the tv actually helped us to position the lights the right way so we had a miniature display with these trees and all that um with the saying things like uh blanket video surveillance uh introduce for the surveillance to prevent blanket video surveillance how are you going to explain that to your children because that was the argument if we don't introduce it now then the evils to conservatives will come and that will come all over the place which was complete nonsense but the actual story comes now the video surveillance issue um we'll explain that later in another session so video surveillance was set for 11 p.m so we kind of wanted to take a little bit of pressure out of it and actually we had a lot of contributors and we had to draw draw sticks as to who would um have their contribution and it was a lawyer who very clearly lied out why public video surveillance is detrimental to our fundamental rights and then there was a woman who said my predecessor explained it really well legally so i don't have anything to add to that but any woman who has ever been at one of the toilets here um you should know that the toilets are under video surveillance and i was standing at the door of the room grinning and the the organizer came to me and said those stickers those stickers that's you right and somebody asked why video surveillance and i said to her isn't it unnerving that people here assume that this could be true and what happened was she went back to the stage and said here is there's no video surveillance and then the poor voices at once we're saying in a choir but it says so right here and there was a two-thirds majority against video surveillance on in the boat we didn't expect that it was great yeah our stickers really had an effect maybe more than ourselves the good thing about the bad thing about political work is that you don't really see the success but in that case it was really great it was really fun and we still have fun with it today and we have even a contribution in the rc3 world about that yeah thanks for that very good story we can still do another so the last story we're going to do yeah we have 10 minutes left and it's about sturdiness and this is a word that often that is often a companion to us because we have to be sturdy and it's about the gdpr when nobody had even heard of that and when people were trying to undermine data protection in germany and europe and we have a video oh no we can't show the video we'll just go on talking we wanted to give an introduction to the video yeah for gdpr the german government always said if there's something european it has to be really good and we have to have at least the standard switching period that we have in germany and so we have to be extremely careful so that everyone knows that we will introduce really good standard but the opposite was actually the case there was a tactic of delay so that this law would not be published and at this point we have to lordate philippe albrecht who was a reporter from in the european parliament and who sifted through the four thousand change petitions and they were able to condense it to 100 questions about which to vote and the minister council in germany ensured that it was where they enhanced but this is not public and at this point we also wanted to address the interior ministry because we want laws that protect us we did a signature we we collected signatures that was fun for the press but also for us so we wanted to take pressure to the street and at that point we didn't we didn't expect to have success with that or maybe we kind of did because we've had so many successes in the past so this video is about how to brief in an interior ministers today we went to the interior ministry privacy is lost this is the eu flag we send an open letter to interior minister friedrich just quickly suing some for protection is the prerequisite for us as autonomous people to stay independent the more we work with the internet the more data we have and the more manipulation takes place because i don't know who has my data there's a tendency that companies like fakes book want to say that our private lives are public it was a good idea to have data protection unified within europe the draft was okay the american trade chamber sent lobbyists to russia to put pressure on europe and it's a face the danger that data protection as we know it and appreciate it will be lost only a few laws are still protecting it and nowadays the lobbyist drawing and pulling on them what do we have left help my privacy so we are on behalf of minister friedrich i want to give you this letter and with the signatures from many organizations we want our interior minister to lobby for our interests terrible things are happening and our we will regret come to regret this so please give this open letter to the interior minister with the signatures of all those who are interested in this course and the there's a softening of the gdpr law infringements must be prosecuted or so this event the these naked citizens that was actually moving and we want do not want to lower the german standards that we have more data means more data protection and i think it's very important to make that clear there are strong rules we want strong rules for product development so that people are protected so that was the video and you heard him say that although we want to increase standards but it turned out in the end many of our demands did actually find their way into the gdpr and and also this selection from padellin this issue of reliability that strong data protections depend on that has been taken as a role model because it actually helps business and so we know that it's worth i think for we started a bit late we didn't actually overrun that badly so that takes us to the end and we hope that someone is still with us and thank you for telling the tales and i know that there are many more stories that we will have to get out of you somehow thank you also to lena for the presentation this will be continued thank you so much it was incredibly much interesting detail now please be quiet we have a question from the audience actually i don't know how we can pass it on first big thanks we have one question but we don't have a sound here in bielefeld the question is who is that four-legged being in the background what's what's that dog's race and and what's the dog's name okay i have to say this is cookie you have to accept a cookie you cannot click cookie away it's a female multi's mix and totally cute and it's it it charms the whole office but but it's never going to be auctioned off or sold in the shop thank you thank you very much um as i said i would love to hear more i would love to hear more but i believe that we do want to go to bed now so have a very nice evening and yeah thank you for this fantastic end to the day and we'll meet again at chaos studio hamburg thank you to hamburg thank you to everyone with us and thanks for the incredible frame building in hamburg and here as well at m26 good night