 What Now America? I'm Tim Apachele, your host, and today's title is Vaccination Passport, Reasonable or Not. You know, more than half of Americans now, adults have been vaccinated. And as that number increases, we're going to have some societal pressure applied. And that is, to what extent will businesses, schools, public gatherings require a passport stating that you've been vaccinated? And to what degree does that polarize Americans even further, even further than the mask issue that we've been dealing with and totally politicized? So it's an interesting topic. I think it's going to be with us for some time. And I think it's worthwhile to discuss it. So let's get right to it. I'd like to introduce Jay Fidel, Cynthia Leeson-Claire, and Winston Welch. Welcome, everyone. Welcome to What Now America? Jay, let's go to the obvious question. Is it reasonable for businesses, schools, entities that people gather, stadiums, football, sports events? Is it reasonable to say entry is allowed based on your ability to prove that you were vaccinated? You know, we're still at the cusp here. We're still at a tipping point. You know, when the CDC, and that means that Biden administration announced that it was okay now to go out in public, except in limited circumstances, and not wear a mask, I said, gee, that's not a good idea. Why do that? I mean, his target date is July 4th. It's a long way to July 4th. Why don't we keep on wearing masks? There's so many variables in play. There's so many risks still to be dealt with. And what is worse? And I talked to a number of people about this, and I get the same reaction. You know, if you have the people who are, what do you want to call hesitant about taking the vaccine? They don't wear a mask. Because, you know, hesitancy and Trumpism is the same thing. And, you know, anti-voting rights is the same thing. And on and on is all the said gun, gun, gun, not gun control, the same thing. So if these people don't wear masks, and then the people who have had a vaccine don't wear masks, how can you tell the difference? How can I tell the difference? If I've had a vaccine, it doesn't exclude the possibility I can still catch it. The jury is still out on that. We don't know. We don't have the data, the experience factor to know yet. Moreover, let me add, there's a lot of people in this country who, you know, are not doing anybody a favor, but not wearing masks and not social distancing, not taking the vaccines. And they're vulnerable to not only the virus, but the variant. And the more of them there are, the more variants we'll have. And the more variants we have, the less sure we can be that our vaccines will work against the variants. It's a jury still out on that. Let me add one more. That's a great point. And I just want to say one thing on that point you just made. And to what degree is it allowable for people to put those who have been vaccinated at new risk with the virus? Because their refusal to get vaccinated is a breeding ground for the variant. And so that's a societal question. If not a legal question is, to what right do you have the right to infect me with a variant that I normally would not have been infected with? Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, it's not only a question of politics or, you know, weird ideology. It's a question of lack of consideration for the people around you or in the community. And for that matter, your own life. I mean, rationally, it's not a good idea to walk around being quote, hesitant and not wear a mask and not distance and not only, you know, infect others, but, you know, yourself, you're exposing yourself. You may die as a result of your political beliefs. It's really bizarre what is happening in the country. And I'm so sorry that we live in a country where the president can't say, you will wear a mask, all of you. You know, it almost extols the virtue of more authoritarian countries where they can do that and achieve a better result, better outcomes. But I was going to add this one point before I stop. And that is, is that look around the world now, look at India is out of control. I thought I'd get out of town, you know, for a little trip. So I started looking on the web for countries, you know, that would permit me in. There are very few. I think maybe that's changing in Europe, but in Asia, a lot of them just say no. New Zealand, Australia, they just say no. Singapore, they just say no. And so the world is still in the throes of this. And some countries are having huge spikes in it. Some states, for that matter, are having huge spikes. So it's not like we're out of the woods. We need to protect ourselves. We don't need to be stupid. Good point. Thank you. Appreciate it. You know, Cynthia, the Bill of Rights is a very important document that provides protections of all Americans. But the Bill of Rights is really a protection against government infringing upon the individual. There's nothing in the Bill of Rights that says an employer, a private entity, can impose its restrictions. So what is to prevent businesses from saying you should not come in our business without your vaccination? Now, as Jay pointed out, it was very easy to spot who had a mask and who didn't. That was very easy. And that alone caused a lot of conflict at Costco and other big box stores, which we all saw on YouTube here and there. It was ugly. It was a horrible situation. To what extent will employers that hire and have employees that working in their confines and businesses that are retail of nature, to what extent do they say we're going to require in demand of vaccination, proof of vaccination, before you enter the premise? And to what degree does that create a social problem? Well, I think it's, of course, going to cause more social issues and divisions. Well, it may not cause more divisions, but just shine a light on these divisions more. Because I don't think it's so much going to, I think the division between the vaccine people and the anti-vaccine people, masters and unmaskers are sort of already, it's already there pretty clearly. So I don't think it's going to make it worse. But I think it will shine a light on it. That's definitely for sure. And it's going to cause problems for the people that say that the private businesses would have to hire somebody that can stand at the door and check people's passports. There's a lot of, I would think, you know, economic stuff that's involved in it too. How do you pay for it? How do you do it? But you know, all this, the government can't make you do stuff. I want everybody to look at their arm, at least our age people, right? And you know, you got a polio vaccine spot on the side of your arm, and you couldn't go to school if you didn't get it. Now, even today, even without the polio and a lot of other stuff, right? You can't go to school unless you have a vaccine, unless your kids are vaccinated, kids in the school. So now then there was this big thing about anti-vaccine because of a misinformation post, social media post, that has since been debunked, but has spread like wildfire, and people think that vaccines cause autism now for kids. Just totally not true. Well, that was an English report. It wasn't just a social media report. It was an actual document from an English doctor, and that has been debunked years ago. You're right. Yet still people think of that, right? So, you know. This was about measles. And look at what is happening in the schools. My brother's a pediatrician, and he said it's crazy what's happening. Kids, all these childhood diseases that were gone are now coming back because of this vaccine hesitancy stuff. So isn't that going to apply again here now? And how we fight it? I'm not sure, but I agree with Jay about taking the masks off. I don't think it was a good idea for him. Okay. Let me ask you this. Is it reasonable for a retail employee, a real entity, to say, please show us your passport before you come in? Is that a reasonable request? And to what degree do you think there will be conflict at the door? I think it is a completely reasonable request, and I think there will be plenty of parents that show up and say, oh, you can't make me do this. Well, you know, it's a private business and they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone that they feel, and every business does that. So, you know, there might be a problem, but you know, I think if they can call the police and a few people get arrested throwing fists like that, maybe it'll stop, I don't know, or at least slow down a little. Okay. Winston, is this an issue of public safety versus personal rights, or is there more to it than that? Is it just that simple? Is your rights stopped where my rights start? And this is a public health issue, and therefore, you know, compliance is expected? Or does the individual rights of an individual Trump public safety? In a word? No. All right, Jay. No, I just can't. Okay, Jay. I mean, Tim, you remember when you were a kid and you got smallpox? How awful that was? No, you don't because you didn't get smallpox as a kid because you got vaccinated against it, as did I. They're not doing it anymore because it doesn't exist in the wild. They're almost there with polio, and then you had some uneducated religious lunatics in certain countries that said, we don't want this in here because it's going to kill the kids or whatever. It's against our religion. It's almost done. It's almost done. And we've made headway on this. We had the Mises Monspevella. And then when you see exactly when that doesn't happen, the government has not only a right, it has the responsibility to look out for its citizens. And while we have a bill of rights that allows us a lot of rights, one of them is not the ability to infect other people or to cause a social chaos by not getting infected, by infecting others with the disease. Now, this one is a this is a trickier one because we're at this point now where you have all this distrust. Why do people distrust this? They don't like vaccines to begin with. Maybe they think they're injecting us with something. They think it's too fast. They don't know if it's effective. They're worried about the side effects. Or they're not worried about the virus at all. I mean, these are some reasons why people don't want to get this on top of those concerns about vaccines that have been debunked. Let me supplement that point. And don't lose your point, but let me supplement that. And that is I've heard from the counter argument from the folks I know. And that is the FDA studies drugs all the time for years before they approve it. And then, lo and behold, we find out that those drugs either caused heart damage or all sorts of deaths, cancer, things of that nature. And so the drugs were pulled, yet the FDA had studied them for years and finally gave approval to it, where these vaccines have been studied for months. And lo and behold, here they are in the marketplace. And shouldn't that be a reason for my desire not to take the vaccine? Because it really hasn't been proven to be quite safe. And the study regime has been truncated greatly in order to address the virus itself. It's a fair question. And I think that we are all enrolled in a giant medical study from birth. Every single person you know is enrolled in a medical study and we will all die of something and we will all have certain diseases based on our age, race, socioeconomic status, a lot of different factors, our genetic predisposition to things, where we grow up, radiations, but whatever, vaccines. But this one in particular has completely shut down our societies on a global level. If there isn't a more clarion call to have our world start up again by getting this vaccine, which has been proven to virtually stop people from dying this disease, if they've managed to get it in the 5% that may get it, and I'm not sure that it's even that high, they don't seem to be dying from this. So I'm just going to go with that. Now down the road, are we going to find out some things like this subgroup got more of this or was more susceptible to that? Inevitably, that's just going to happen. Nothing is foolproof, but as far as I can tell, and this is a new technology, I don't want to, you know, it's just like anything else. It's a new technology, but it's been around for 20 years, they've been testing it. And as far as I can tell, they have administered this to, to, you know, half a billion people, maybe a billion people worldwide for these vaccines. And they seem to be really very safe. And they're stopping this disease right now. As far as, so that argument, while it's true, we don't have the luxury of time to wait for 30 years to see who got vaccinated for COVID and who didn't because the whole society needs to be vaccinated now in the same way that we tackled smallpox. It's going to be, it's going to be a hard, arduous thing because I don't think people denied that smallpox existed when they were giving out those vaccines at the 40s, 50s, 60s or whenever they came out. These days, you have all of these alternative narratives going around. So it's going to be harder, but we'll reach a herd immunity. At some point though, you ask, is it okay for the government to do that? It was a mistake to say people don't have to wear their masks outside because it will confuse things more. But I think eventually, the writing is on the wall, if you don't have your vaccine and you don't have your vaccine passport, however that shows up, they're not going to let you into the mall. They're not going to let you on a plane. You're not going to be able to go to Costco or if they do, you're going to be able to go from seven till nine on Tuesday mornings. And you will be allowed only one person and you'll be forced to double mask or whatever it is that they'll have. They'll let you be on the Tuesday flight to Milwaukee at three in the morning. And it'll be something like that. So I think the answer about do employers have a right to require this, it's yes. And if you don't, you can be fired from that schools. Probably I saw their testing on six months old now with this vaccine. So eventually, the reason right now why it's not required and why the army can't require it, although I think they could by some presidential order, is that it remains under an emergency youth authorization. So until that changes, which will probably be sometime this fall, it can't be mandated for people. And even then not everyone's going to get it, but we will reach a, we will reach some sort of herd immunity over time. And I think the public pressure to get that shot is just going to become so overwhelming for people for whatever reasons that they have that, that they will just give up and get the shot because it will be so much trouble and humbug. They won't be able to be around their friends or family. It'll create more personal division and more societal division. And at some point, they're just going to say, I just want to go to Tommy's birthday party, but Mary and Susie and Sally won't let me until I get this damn vaccine. So I just gave in and got it. I think at the end of the day, that's going to be about half of it. Okay. Yeah, I think you took a nice swipe at the issues involved that we're going to face and we're going to see. Jay, does this, for those who refuse to get vaccinated and they'll feel the ramifications from society, either private employers or schools or whatever, will cases work its way to the Supreme Court on this issue? What do you think? As I've said before, you know, it's still in flux and I don't completely agree with Winston's notion this is all going to work out swell. I think we've got a long way to go. We had somebody from the EEOC, it was the Employers Council, the Employers Council, the other day on the show. And she said, well, we have to educate our employers that handle situations where they don't want to hire somebody or they have somebody in their staff who doesn't want to do vaccine. And really, because if it was me and they didn't take a vaccine, I wouldn't let them in the house or the store or the restaurant, I wouldn't let them in. I said, no, no, we have to deal with that. There are people feel very strongly about it and they make complaints and you can expect litigation by people who don't want to take the vaccine and don't want to be fired or want to get a job despite the fact they haven't taken the vaccine. I mean, that's outrageous, but that's what's happening. And yes, it will go through the courts, but it'll take a long time. And it's happening all over the country and you know what the Trumpers are going to say. You know that they're going to fight, they're going to put money on it, they're going to, you know, wind its way to the Supreme Court slowly because everything is slow when you have a tumble, when you have chaos, you don't want to resolve it right away. That's their MO. So my view of it is, we don't have time to waste here. This is still a crisis. Lest we forget it's still a crisis. And it's just remarkable to me that people don't want to solve the crisis. They want to have the right to a crisis. I don't think this is going to work out well. I don't think that the employers are going to be in charge, at least not for a while. And I think we're going to have other surges. And I think what Joe Biden did the other day with the CD, he did about the masks was really a strange man over strange. Why do you think he did it? Why do you think he did it? Why do you think he caved? I think there was pressure and he came to it. Why? What do you think? I think that's true. He was about to give his state of the union, just happening as we speak. And he wanted to, you know, claim a victory here. He wants to move to July 4th and look good. And, you know, I think he did have something to do with that decision. It wasn't pure CDC. Bottom line, though, is premature and unnecessary, unnecessary. We would have been much better off if he didn't, if they didn't make that decision. Let me add a couple of other points. Well, let me, before you move on, let me, let me ask you a question. Did he just do what Donald Trump did and that's unduly influenced a science, a science-based organization called the CDC? Did he apply political? I have no information on that. Yeah. Okay. But I would disagree with what the CDC did. And, and if he was, you know, resonant with that, then I would disagree with him. I guess he was, he went along with it. Yeah, he went along with it, but he never, he never said boo about it. And so what we have is the problem. The same thing, you know, you made an interesting point about the kids in school. It's chilling to find that we're, you know, we have anti-vaxxers on a number of, and Winston mentioned this too, on a number of diseases that we, you know, that we used to have everybody take a vaccine, you know, it was, it was simple. It was de rigueur for every kid in school. Nobody questioned it. And to find that they're not taking these, these vaccines, it's just remarkable. But I would like to add to what you said, that they come home at night. And some of these diseases are adult disease. Measles would be a good example of that. And, you know, the related viruses that come out of me. And so, you know, what my concern is, we're going to have an outbreak of this, that and the other thing, these kids don't, they, they are a, what do you call it, they're, they're a breeding ground for all those childhood hyphen adult diseases. We're going to, we're going to see that again. The other thing I want to add to what Winston was saying, you know, the people around the country, you know, are in this issue, and maybe it'll work out, but on a global basis, Winston, you know, take Africa. Some of these countries in Africa, the number of people who are vaccinated is like 2% or less. It really low. And, and this is the remarkable part. This is the part that's so chilling. The people in these countries are hesitant also. So you get the unavailability of the, of the vaccine. And on top of that, you get hesitancy. I don't see a light at the end of that tunnel. And that's global. So, you know, we can lift travel bans and, and we can say Americans are welcome back for, you know, tourism purposes. But the bottom line is it's still one world. It's a flat world. And if something is going wrong in Africa, South America, or other, you know, undeveloped countries, we are going to see it bounce right back. And it's going to remain global. And it's going to have an effect, even though we don't spend enough time as far as I'm concerned in the media, the media loves to generate these silly issues. And everybody runs around the block on silly issues, like the raw meat issue, or the Tucker Carlson remark about kids should, you know, parents should go to jail if kids are wearing masks. That was insane. It was another one recently too. Oh, the post, the writer on the post who said that her that that she was she she wrote that Kamala Harris was selling kids books to immigrants who were detained, come to find it's not true at all, then come to find that the New York Post published that article, they also told her to write it. They told her to write the article and she said it's not true. They said you will write that article. She wrote the article and then she quit. And she went public on what happened. And just keep in mind that Fox News and the New York Post are owned by the same people. Okay, well, you know, you kind of, that's our second topic we're going to talk about is what's Fox up to and why are they doing it. We'll get to that in a minute. Let's close this one out Cynthia. Got a governor by the name of Jim Justice, he's the Republican governor from West Virginia. And he has stated, maybe it's an innovative approach, maybe it's not. And that is, he's going to offer a hundred dollar savings bond to anyone between the ages of 16 and I believe 35 in his state. That's the wrong message to send or is it a good idea? I think it's a great idea. I think anything that's going to motivate people, it's going to get people there to the spot to get that shot. That's what I say, anything that's going to work, let's do it. What are the optics on this? What are the optics that the United States has to bribe its population to combat a deadly disease? Because their personal opinions and rights of infringement have been addressed. And they refuse to do it. Now I have to bribe them. What does that say to people in India who are clamoring for a vaccine? What does it say to people in Europe and Africa and around the world that United States are a bunch of bratty people that have to be bribed in order to take a life-saving vaccine? Well, I hate to tell you this, but they kind of already think that anyway. When I went around the world, I found out why do you think that? There would be an American in front of me in line at a store or at a site that I was going, an attraction I was going to see. And they were so rude and so horrible. By the time it was my turn, I would find myself apologizing profusely for all Americans. In the travel circle, that's referred to as the ugly American. So it's been going on for quite a while, but this is a new kind of wrinkle to it, isn't it? It's a new form of ugliness. It's that entitlement that is what people look at and see as ugly. That holier than now, I know more than you, I'm better than you, stop. And that's what's sort of behind some of this hesitancy. And I wonder, I put this to you and to our viewers, if Trump had won and all this vaccine stuff was happening the same way, because it would have rolled out about the same time and everything else, well the rollout would have been a little different because all of his rich friends would have got it first. But all of the Trumpers wouldn't have to say, we don't want it because it would have been his. But now they got to say it's Biden's so they don't want it, which is, it shows they're ignorant. It's like, and so they're not just ugly, but they're ignorant. Well, in a cultural personality that we're still facing with the ex-president, yes means no and no means yes. And whatever you think is good for the country, we were going to oppose it because we can't afford to make you look good. That's the world of polarization we live in and I think your point's well made. Winston, do you agree with her? Well, you know, one thing I wanted to say about the so-called ugly American, the ugly tourist is not relegated to one nationality, what I've traveled over and there's ugly people, let's call the beginning tourist, or people who are insensitive to another country's history, culture, religious custom, whatever. So I've also seen that Americans could be really great. But Cynthia's point is, I understand what she's saying. I think what it is, the world rightly so can look at our nation and say, boy, you guys talk a good talk, but when it comes down to it, you have lunatics storming your capital and also like think there's microchips in the vaccine. And on and on, they don't remember Donald Trump got the vaccine before he left the White House, as did his wife. So his followers need to be aware of that, whoever's left. I was heartened to see that in the Republican House meeting that they had in Florida, they didn't invite him there. And Liz Cheney and Kevin McCarty are still trying to work things out to be nice. But, you know, if the world is looking at us and we're paying people to do that for the vaccine hesitant, that's fine with me too. I'm with Cynthia on that. It's sort of like, if that's what we need to do to get the job done, to get those 10 or 15% that need to be a little bribe, it's like the lollipop at the end of your shot that we used to get the old days. I think, why don't they give that out? Why don't you get a gift card to go to Safeway? The sugar product, that's why it's a sugar product. Yeah, we need a sugar, but yeah, then you can get your sugar-free dairy-free, gluten-free, cruelty-free pop, but a gift card to Safeway or something, or to plant a tree. But I think that the point here is it's organ donation. People are going to sign up for organ donation and the people that realize that, and that's a great thing. And we should really have it be an opt out instead of an opt-in on your driver's license. You have to check this if you don't want to give your organs, but they're looking at different approaches now and says, you know what? We'll pay you for a kidney. We'll pay your family, well not your family, but if you're alive and we can do a donor transplant, we'll pay you for that. And people have some ethical problems with that because they're like, but then other people think, hey, I can make a quarter of a million dollars selling my kidney, I got two. So I don't know if it's exactly a fair comparison. I like the Lolli better or maybe $25 gift card, Safeway. If that's going to bring them out, bring them out that way, and the rest will either come on board and you'll always have your heart for ones that are not going to get this shot. And we will be able to work with that and around that because we will have herd immunity by then. Hopefully we won't get some awful combo variant mutants that diseases that start inside of that population, but Jay may be right is that's where that's going to come from. And we are just going to have to cross that bridge when we get to it, but everybody who's got a shot now probably going to sign up and take the pill or the shot in 12 months or 18 months from now with the boosters that cover all these other variants that have come out. Good point. Cynthia, go ahead. Just want to add one thing really quick. They're not like giving them a hundred bucks. They don't just give them a hundred dollars when they walk out the door. It's a hundred dollars savings bond. Right. A little bit different, right? I mean, not that different, but it is a little bit different. I just wanted to make sure that no, you you did. Thank you. You know, once again, my eyes are bigger than my stomach. I thought I was going to have enough time to talk about what Fox News up to Rupert Murdoch and his his craziness. But we've run out of time just about, but I just want to throw this out there. Did everyone hear what Tucker Carlson said? Jay, you brought it up two things. He said you should go up to people with masks and tell them to take off their mask and say that you offend me by wearing a mask. You're offensive. And then the other thing was that people should call the the police or the Department of Child Care Services and report parents that make their children wear masks because it's the same as equivalent to child abuse. And is Tucker Carlson trying to be the next Rush Limbaugh? Is that what he's angling for? Winston, he's aiming to be the next President of the United States from what I can understand. And he's got a platform and he's got the anger behind it. But a statement like that is so incredibly irresponsible. Okay, let me go to that point. Let me go to that point. Donald Trump was canceled from Twitter, from Facebook for not speaking in the benefit of the public good. And whether it be misinformation about the virus or potentially creating more insurrection in society, he was banned. Where's the where's the slap on the wrist for Tucker Carlson? Maybe it comes that they have to have whenever he's on, they have to have a disclaimer whether it's Time Warner or whoever your cable provider is that comes into your house has to have a disclaimer underneath when he is talking that says notice this speaker has been known to disseminate false information. And that's the way they get around. I don't know otherwise how you do that besides just banning his show, but it's not going to happen. Oh, we are in court. And he got away with it because it was an opinion show. It's just his opinion. We got away with it. Well, no, yeah, his opinion is basically inciting people to great conflict. And as they say, the season is ripe for it. And to what degree is he trying to incite violence against members of society against one another? So again, I question where the FCC is on this. And I know they got rid of the fair doctrine law back in 1987. But maybe it's time to bring it back. Well, we've run out of time, but we have time for comments. So Jay, your last comments on this week and where you think we go next week. Yeah, just after the last discussion here, I feel I have a short historical reference. Okay, back in the 18th century, when the captain took the ship, say from Europe into the New World, he would get his orders in a little envelope, and it had a wax seal. And he couldn't open the envelope until they got out to sea. And in the envelope were his orders, which was on one sheet of paper about what he was supposed to do, where he was supposed to go, what his authority was. And that's the last conversation he had with the Admiralty when they got back the way it was. Now the captain leaves, and he's under conversation with the Admiralty every moment of every day. Ari's decision is better. It's sort of an example of what happens when you have everybody involved in the conversation all day long, including people who know and people who don't know. And I submit that we have shoved off into a new world where the press is irresponsible, where you have Tucker Carlson, he'll get away with it. Who's going to stop him? Congress is not going to stop him. I'm telling you this now, go and record him. And you have social media, which is still a potent force, and Congress is not stopping them. As long as these phenomena keep on happening, we are not going to have an honest public conversation. Without honesty in the public conversation, we cannot have a democracy. We're in trouble. That's my comment. I often talk about the misinformation that's still out there. Having fallen prey to it myself, it makes me a more heightened alert to it now. And so I really want everyone, not just Fox News, but every station, really vet all your information, make sure you can find it in a couple of different places. If you find your information in only one place, and it's not corroborated anywhere else, then it's probably not true. And I just really want people to be careful about that and get your vaccine, please. And I don't care if the thing has changed, CDC changed it, wear your mask, until we know everybody's going to be safe. All right. Thank you so much, Cynthia. I love your words. Hey, Winston, your last thoughts, comments about this week and next week? Yeah, don't be a sociopath, don't be a psychopath. I like the thing, get the damn shot if you haven't gotten it yet. This is not, I mean, it's not rocket science here. Let's go with the flow. If we all die in two years, the world's going to probably be better off for it anyway. But let's just go that we're not going to. We're going to rebuild our society. We're going to rebuild our world. We're going to recover everything that we've lost. And we're going to end up in a better place because we're starting to function as rational, sane, kind individuals again. Great. You know, Winston, there's some people that used to have a nice frame embroidery of home sweet home. I'm going to put one up saying, don't be a sociopath, don't be a psychopath in a nice frame embroidered with red and orange and pastels. I can't wait. Thank you for that, that great suggestion. That's what I'm going to do. And I want to thank you, Winston, you, Jay Fidel, and you, Cynthia, Lisa and Claire for joining us on What Now America. Join us next week, Wednesday at 11 o'clock. I'm Tim Epichel, your host, and we'll see you then. Aloha.