 Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending on where you are joining us from. My name is Scott Worden and I am the director of Afghanistan and Central Asia programs for the U.S. Institute of Peace. We're thrilled to be co-hosting today's event with U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum's Simon Scott Center for the Prevention of Genocide. This event calls attention to the current atrocity risks facing vulnerable groups in Afghanistan and discusses how the threats may evolve over time and what are the immediate as well as long-term actions the U.S. and the international community can take to prevent further violence. The prospect of mass atrocities should be its own highest motivator for action, but often appears to be insufficient. With that in mind, I would note that the Afghan conflict over the last 50 years, starting with the communist coup in 1978 and the Soviet invasion that followed, has been marked by atrocities on all sides of the conflict that have been executed with impunity. These committed in one conflict, we get more atrocities in future conflicts, and they perpetuate a cycle of violence that not only consumes its victims but causes international instability and creates havens for terrorism that threaten our own security. Prevention is therefore not only a moral act or a humanitarian act, but it is a national security act, and it should be pursued with vigor for all of these reasons in Afghanistan but also numerous high-risk countries around the world. Every conflict and context for mass atrocities is different, but the swift response to atrocities in Ukraine presents something of a model for galvanized action that we should keep in mind when we look at with alarm at the repression and persecution that is occurring in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan today. There are things the international community can do, and we can act quickly and decisively when we have the will. This panel discussion will highlight the need for action and what steps can be taken to reduce the risk of mass atrocities in Afghanistan. We'll begin with a keynote remark by Reena Miri, the U.S. special envoy for Afghan women, girls, and human rights. Previously, she served as a senior advisor to the U.S. special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan during the Obama administration, and she's been a senior U.N. official with the United Nations Assistance Mission for Afghanistan and the U.N.'s Mediation Support Unit. Then Naomi Kikoler will moderate a discussion with an outstanding panel of experts, both on Afghanistan and on atrocity prevention. Naomi is the director of the Simon Scott Center for the Prevention of Genocide and has led the Center's policy engagement with the United States government and their work and has also worked on bearing witness countries, including undertaking documentation of the Commission of Genocide by ISIS. She's also worked for the U.N. Office of the Special Advisor on the Prevention of Genocide and the Office of the Prosecutor at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. USIP was founded 35 years ago as an independent, nonpartisan national institute with a goal of preventing, mitigating, and resolving violent conflict. We've been working in Afghanistan and on Afghanistan since 2002, including on issues of transitional justice and protecting women's rights, which is active today. We also support U.S. government efforts to prevent and respond to mass atrocities, including co-chairing the 2009 Genocide Prevention Task Force, which has provided the broad framework for U.S. atrocity prevention and response and training, and we have trained U.S. government staff on atrocity prevention. For this event, we invite all of you to take part in the discussion by asking a question using the chat box function on the events page. We ask that you include your name and specify where you are joining us from. We'll select several questions from amongst these that we receive for the second part of our discussions opposed to the panelists. Finally, you can engage with us and with each other on Twitter throughout the event using today's hashtag, hashtag Afghanistan USIP. And with that, we will now turn to Rina Amiri's keynote remarks. I'd like to begin by thanking USIP and the Holocaust Memorial Museum for convening this critical and timely discussion focused on the situation of Hazaras, religious minorities, and other vulnerable populations in Afghanistan. The people of Afghanistan are confronting a myriad of crises simultaneously. Since the assumption of power by the de facto Taliban authorities, the country has plunged into an economic meltdown, leaving 97% of the population vulnerable to hunger and food insecurity. Much of the population has been stripped of their legal rights that they have so valiantly struggled for. Those that bear the brunt of this hardship are the most vulnerable, women and children, and ethnic and religious minorities. The world has at least acknowledged the desperate situation of women and girls who have been rendered invisible overnight and stripped of their basic rights. It is far from adequate, but the injustice is at least part of international deliberations on Afghanistan. The situation of ethnic and religious minority communities has received far less attention. Hazaras, Hindus and Sikhs, Ismailis, Panchidis, Ahmadis, among others feel under a cute threat. My office in cooperation with Representative Tom West's office, the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, USAID, and other parts of the government regularly consult with representatives from these communities. What we hear is a range of abuses from seizures of their properties to the raiding of their homes and offices, to unequal distribution of humanitarian aid, detentions, disappearances, physical abuse and torture. The Hazara population in particular speak of the existential fears they and their families face. A group that has faced historical injustice and inequity in Afghanistan, their arc are currently under even greater threat. As one young woman said to me, as a visible other, I don't have the option of lowering my profile to escape harm. These communities feel under threat both from the Taliban that have historically singled them out and Daesh, ISIS-K, that has unleashed a campaign of targeted attacks against the community. The Hazara activists and leaders I speak to do not feel safe in their homes and mosques and medical clinics and their communities. They don't feel safe when their sisters or wives are in labor or when their children are in school. All of these places have become the target of brutal attacks, some claimed by ISIS-K, killing newborn infants, school children, innocent men and women. No one has been held to account. No perpetrators have been brought to justice. The appeals from these vulnerable communities is that foremost we must put the spotlight on the abuses and suffering they confront. As world attention has turned to the tragedy in Ukraine, the desperate situation of the Afghan population, the most vulnerable, has not lessened. They rightfully note that we should not be able to do more than one difficult thing at a time. And I can say that my office and the bureaus and offices that I work with are committed to doing our utmost to ensure that their voices are injected into U.S. policymaking and international deliberations. We also share their assessment and recommendations with the United Nations International Partners and Allies. A fundamental threat and atrocity prevention is rendering it visible, naming it, identifying the risk factors and warning signs, and then taking action on the basis of an informed assessment. On the diplomatic front, we and our allies have pressed the Taliban on the situation of ethnic and religious minorities and human rights. I'm keenly aware that many will dismiss this as a futile exercise, but it is important for the Taliban to understand that they cannot achieve their goals of normalized relations with the international community when half of the population and Afghanistan's most vulnerable are pushed out of the equation. All of the communities that I speak to demand greater accountability, including investigations, evidence gathering, and documentation, giving that many members of the international community no longer have a presence in Afghanistan. It is all the more important to ensure that the Office of the U.N. Special Report Tour for Afghanistan, Richard Bennett, is well funded, supported, and staffed. We also need to work closely with the UNAMA Office, particularly its field offices. We need to encourage the OIC and regional actors who maintain a presence in Afghanistan to make sure that they and their offices have a human rights address. And finally, we need to support human rights actors, local actors, through funding, cybersecurity training, and other tools to give them a fighting chance to carry out their work under incredibly challenging circumstances. My office is committed to supporting all of these priorities. The road ahead will not be easy, but Afghans, particularly those vulnerable, do not have the recourse to leave. They have no choice but to walk the perilous path. Our option is not whether or not to support them, but to lean in and to commit to the ways that we can support them and to stand resolutely shoulder to shoulder with them. Thank you. Thank you, Reena, for your powerful remarks. And thank you to everyone for joining us for this important conversation. As Reena noted, today we're gathered for the purpose of rendering what is all too invisible visible, the plight of ethnic and religious minorities in Afghanistan. We do so because as an institution, we understand all too closely and intimately the potentially deadly consequences of failing to do so. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum teaches that the Holocaust was preventable, and the Museum's Simon Scott Center for the Prevention of Genocide seeks to do for communities at risk of genocide today, what was not done for the Jews of Europe in the 1930s and 40s. We do so by striving to put a spotlight on communities at risk and elevate their voices in calling for preventive and protective measures and for justice and accountability. Our work focuses on genocide and related crimes against humanity, crimes often marked by their large scale and group targeted nature. Today we're discussing a situation that has been alarming for decades, where groups have been targeted on the basis of their identity. Afghanistan is and has been at high risk of mass killing for several years. Even before the return of the Taliban in August 2021, our early warning project, which forecasts the risk of mass killing, has ranked Afghanistan as amongst the three highest risk countries in our last five assessments and has ranked in the top 10 countries at risk since 2015. We're especially alarmed now. The Hazara, a religious and ethnic minority, have faced persecution and violence in the past, and there have been recent brutal attacks against members of the group, including schoolchildren. In August 2021, the Museum issued a warning that the Hazara face a risk of crimes against humanity and genocide, and that other ethnic and religious minorities in Afghanistan face a precarious future. We noted that the group faced targeted violence when the Taliban was last in power, and since its emergence in 2015, ISIS correspondent province ISIS-K has also attacked the community and stated that its goal is to exterminate the Shia, including the Hazara. The Taliban have attacked women's rights and have similarly executed former officials. Afghanistan has been plunged into a humanitarian crisis, which can exacerbate the risks against already vulnerable communities. Members of civil society face significant risks to their safety, and many have fled. It's especially harrowing that in this time of great atrocity risk, the people who are doing the important work of documenting crimes and sharing information with those around the world are now being harassed, sidelined or silenced. We should not be cut off guard by the current crisis in Afghanistan. Afghanistan has established risk factors for genocide and other mass atrocities. Those include ongoing armed conflict, major political instability, potential perpetrators with exclusionary ideology, both the Taliban and ISIS-K, and those who've committed mass killings in the past have not been held properly accountable, leaving few restraints on future mass atrocities. When conflict or mass atrocities are ongoing, sometimes the policy response seems to focus on the immediate humanitarian needs of civilians at risk. While this is understandable, the U.S. government and others have tools at its disposal that will help plan for and develop effective responses to deter mass atrocity risks farther along the horizon. In Afghanistan today, we're already seeing the failures of world leaders to put those tools into action. We're seeing a rising tide of efforts to stem mass atrocities in Ukraine. The use of an array of sanctions, provision of refugee status, advancing accountability through support for those who are conducting documentation efforts, international support for domestic legal cases, and even proposed legislation to bolster accountability for perpetrators on U.S. soil. This growing effort to promote accountability for crimes in Ukraine should, as our U.S. sidepeak colleagues Belki Zamadi, Kate Bateman, and Scott Warden have noted, it should also apply to Afghanistan. It is not too late to prevent atrocities in Afghanistan. Those at risk within the country today deserve the full support of the U.S. government and others to respond to current atrocity crimes and prevent those in the future. It is my deep honor to now introduce our panelists. We are joined today by Farhunda Akpari. Dr. Akpari is a post-doctoral fellow at the Gender, Peace, and Security Center at Monash University. She completed her PhD in diplomatic studies at the Australian National University. Her research focuses on diplomatic engagements with extreme non-state actors in peace settlements, looking at the case of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia's Actors of Diplomacy. She's worked at the Department of Political Affairs in the United Nations Headquarters in New York, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, and Afghanistan's Independent Directorate of Local Governance in Kabul. She's also used her research to advocate for human rights, especially the rights of women and girls and vulnerable ethnic groups in Afghanistan. Shukria Dallawar is a peace and security expert, human rights advocate, and a gender specialist. As coordinator of the Prevention and Protection Working Group, a coalition of 250 human rights, religious, humanitarian, anti-genocide, and peace organizations, she advocates for the prevention of mass atrocities and genocide. PPWG was instrumental in passing the LAWISL Genocide and Atrocity Prevention Act and the Global Fragility Act, two groundbreaking legislative initiatives that advance global peace building and conflict prevention. Prior to her tenure at FCNL, Shukria worked in the development sector on women's empowerment and in the defense sector as a political analyst and cultural advisor, testifying before Congress as a subject matter expert in multiple briefings. She's led several fact-finding missions to Afghanistan and represented the Center for International Policy as a senior fellow for seven years. She also consults consultants with the Afghanistan peace campaign to push for peace and reconciliation while advocating for protection of human rights. She serves as an advisor to the thought partnerships and organization dedicated to advancing nonviolent, just, and inclusive societies. Lauren Bailey is a senior program officer on Atrocity Prevention at USIP. She leads a program that explores the intersections between Atrocity Prevention and cross-cutting criminal justice reform issues, including countering violent extremism, combating corruption and transnational organized crime, and promoting women peace and security. In partnership with the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, she works to develop a comprehensive curriculum on Atrocity Prevention for practitioners in the justice and security sector. Lauren joined USIP after 10 years at the Public International Law and Policy Group, BILPG, where she served most recently as Vice President and Senior Counsel. During her time with BILPG, she worked extensively on accountability and transitional justice in conflict and post-conflict settings, including South Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Kosovo. Her expertise includes human rights documentation, design of responsive transitional justice mechanism, women's participation in peace and transitional justice processes, justice sector accountability, and strategic litigation as a tool to promote accountability. She's a field experience in Libya, Kosovo, South Sudan, and Tanzania. Prior to that work, she worked with the U.S. State Agency for International Development and the Brookings Institution. We have a truly phenomenal group of women to talk about this incredibly critical topic today. I'm going to turn to our panelists for a few rounds of prepared questions before turning to the audience. You can take part in today's discussion by asking a question about using the chat function located just below the video player on the USIP event page. We ask that you please include your name and specify from where you are joining us today. So with that, I'm now going to turn to our panelists. First question as we try to understand what the mass atrocity risks are in Afghanistan is which groups in Afghanistan are especially vulnerable to mass atrocities today? And who would the key perpetrators be? And if you can talk a little bit about their motivations, that would be helpful as well. I'm going to turn first to Furkunde. Thank you very much, Naomi, for the question and also just want to take the opportunity to thank the organizers and also the audience participating today, this very critical and important event. Turning to your question, unfortunately, there are many categories and degrees of vulnerabilities in Afghanistan about who is vulnerable specifically since the Taliban came to power in the last 10 months. As you mentioned in your remarks and then as Rina mentioned in hers, there are a different kind of situation unfolding, women and girls for their gender, the Hindu community are being targeted or have been targeted for their religion and the people of Panjshir for their political resistance. And then the Hazaras who have been targeted very systematically for their religious and ethnic identity. There are also many types of crimes occurring or happening in Afghanistan that have been amounted to war crimes. But here for tonight's discussion on mass atrocities, I think it's really the situation that the Hazara communities are facing a very distinctive patterns and nature of crime that are being targeted to the community. And then what has happened to the community throughout history, at least in the modern history of Afghanistan, there have been different waves of persecution both by state and non-state actors or armed actors that show us that the community has been facing a process of genocide. There may have been an event of genocide especially in the 1890s under the Emir Abdul Rahman's reign where it is believed and also recorded that about 62% of the Hazara population were wiped out and they were taken as slaves and treated as an infidel under the decree that he issued. And it has happened since then as community tracing at different times that there has been a particular kind of discrimination and it was more on that ethnic and religious identity. Coming back to the Taliban, during the Taliban regime the kind of narrative that the Taliban used in the 1990s against the Hazara community really resembled what Emir Abdul Rahman Khan used during his time of persecution of the Hazaras such as the Hazaras are infidels and they need to be wiped out of Afghanistan. We do know the massacre of Mazhar Sharif in August 1998. My family have been victim of that particular massacre. We do know about the mass graves in Bamiyan in Yakowlan that the UN found as soon as the US and the coalition forces entered Afghanistan that they were buried months before. We do know about the cultural genocide of the Hazaras destroying 2000-year-old Bamiyan statues that sort of symbolized Hazara identity and Hazara's presence in Afghanistan. And the economic embargo of Hazara Jad that is not known as much about that during the Taliban regime. There was this embargo in Central Afghanistan where the Hazaras are residing that prevented the distribution of or the flow of humanitarian aid and access in those regions. But then post 2001 the Hazaras cooperated with their heart and soul in the democratization process because the community felt that these processes lifting them out of being a second class citizen and and at least their rights were being recognized under the 2004 constitution. The Hazaras were participating in elections in large numbers women were leading their civil society organizations across Afghanistan or in the security sectors and and and and also other leading other other platforms to to to the feeding that progressive sort of mode in Afghanistan. But these really activities became part of Hazara's vulnerability today because it it became a lot more justifiable to extremist organizations including the Taliban that the Hazaras have gained from these opportunities. They have lifted themselves out of their historical roles as being the subordinate second class citizen and therefore they need to be pushed back and and they need to pay back for for for what they have gained. On your point about motivation as Rina mentioned in her remarks about the typology of crimes that have been taking place against the community it's the mother giving birth to their infant child it's this school girl it's also this school boy it's the sportsman in the gym that attack has been on every part of social life of the Hazaras and what this indicates that that there is a kind of wiping of the community or destruction of the community in part if it's not in whole and and and the attack on youth on infants also tells us about the motivation behind these attacks are signaling to the community that you do not have a future in this country. And this is very concerning to the to the Hazaras as mentioned there has been persecutions there are there are patterns of persecution but when youth are being particularly targeted as young as an infant I think we have been trying to understand the mind behind the strategist of this extremist organization who are behind it that what do they want to tell us about it why why they could blow a mask or this or that but why why an infant why the infants or why the hospitals or or or why um um schools young young children and and this automatically I think tell us and tell the world that it's it's also about our future um and and about the who are the perpetrators I think this is something that we don't know much there has been very um less talk and less information about it partly it's a failure of previous F1 government and also unfortunately the international community who were present with foot on the ground in Afghanistan and and the pattern of attacks on the Hazaras that have been happening most more targetedly at least post 2001 started from 2011 onwards that they did not identify or bring one single perpetrator to light or or or to justice to tell us that who is behind these attacks I can say perpetrators are being politicized there are the government used to blame the Taliban the Taliban used to blame the government and now they're they're blaming the resistance groups who are opposing the Taliban but nobody really brings out the evidence that who is killing the Hazaras if we it's very easy to blame everything on on ISIS but the history of Hazaras and or at least Hazara persecution shows that it goes beyond the existence of ISIS there are different groups groups come and goes in the lens political landscape or security landscape of Afghanistan but one thing remains solid and that is that um the the Hazara remains vulnerable and they do remain a target and this is where I think um it is time it is late but it is time for international community to really look into what is behind the scene especially in terms of um perpetrator and I look forward to discussion and hear more about from the experts um on on the topic um to learn and also to to to understand and and also raise awareness I um to to responsible authorities internationally on what we can do next thank you Naomi thank you for before that I think just for providing also the historical context of the systemic discrimination that has been experienced by the Hazara community for decades but also the intentional destruction of cultural institutions and artifacts the physical attacks Knox team has written about how just in April alone within 10 days there were five attacks on the Hazara community and to just be very clear for those who are listening as Farhana mentioned that includes attacks on maternity hospitals attacks on schools attacks on mosques places where people come together to celebrate as a community or to give life for receive medical care but as you know one of the big challenges really is in identifying the perpetrators but there have been multiple opportunities for the international community to invest in documentation to invest in gathering that type of information as our USIP colleagues have talked about their husband since 20 20 and open ICC investigation there have been at various times different efforts to to try to identify who perpetrators are in document but many of the reports have never been made public and there is definitely a big gap there when it comes to the accountability efforts but also really understanding as you noted in more granular detail the nature of the threats and how then best to to tackle and address them should create your perspective on this thank you let me just start with thinking about USIP and US Holocaust Memorial Museum too for this very I would say urgent discussion and timely discussion I just want to thank my colleague Farhana for for her courage to speak on this issue it's very important going back to your question who's suffering these atrocities so obviously the minorities particularly the Hazara community as Farhana just articulated the Sikhs Ismaili's Panjshiri's Ahmadi's women and girls the perpetrators are often the Taliban ISIS cave but as Farhana said earlier there are many perpetrators if you look at the historical context this conflict has shifted there's been so many power shifts and in every turn one or the other group has been targeted and in this particular note I want to say the ICC investigation was shut down by the Trump administration there was evidence collected of atrocity crimes in Afghanistan that that this is where we have to take the US government has to take some self-responsibility it's really hard to hold other perpetrators accountable when we're not willing to hold ourselves accountable as well and then I want to also talk about motivations the motivations for these groups obviously its power its ideology there's a lot of revenge killings every time a government shifts or a new government comes in there there's no rule of law there's no accountability as Farhana mentioned earlier no single perpetrators and helped to account in Afghanistan by the international community clearly this is a culture of impunity that we're neglecting afghans and 38 million people continue to suffer and other than that it's also I want to point some nuance there's also men suffering under the Taliban rule you know that if your beard is not long enough you know then you might end up in jail as well or get get a nice feeding it I don't want to say it's everyone but I do want to say that we often hear and very rightfully so because women and girls and minorities suffer acutely in Afghanistan but it's also a lot of men a lot of men that are brave enough to put their girls to school to allow the woman to work they deal with stigma they deal with you know revenge killings they they deal with all kinds of things currently that it's a very very I would say gray area it's it's hard to point to one thing but it is very important to start these investigations and this is where the UN is critical the UN Human Rights Council is critical to start investigations to document we are seeing that in Ukraine it can be done at very at high speed if we have the will so I'll stop there thank you thank you so much for that Shikrit and also just for highlighting the reality that when we talk about vulnerable communities there are so many communities and subsets of them that are at risk and that are not necessarily receiving the the level of attention that they should including men and within that specific communities of men that face a heightened risk uh in terms of this question of how atrocity risks might evolve over time and the types of indicators that we should be looking for and watching for especially with an eye for developing contingency plans thinking about the types of tools and strategies that can be used to help mitigate future risks and better understanding how we should respond what are some of the the indicators that we should be keeping in mind and the possible evolution that can occur just kind of start maybe Shikrit with you to answer that question sure it's very important to understand that atrocities don't happen overnight they require planning preparation and execution before any atrocity crime unfolds as we know many risk factors surface so particularly in Afghanistan there are concerning factors uh some we have already uh both Rina and Miriam for Honda alluded to but there's continued political instability humanitarian crisis white-spread human rights violations for both men and women the women and girls suffer more acutely violence disappearances extrajudicial killings detentions attacks on schools mosques seizures seizures of property um and then censorship of media acute poverty culture of impunity white-spread hate speech and revenge killings and there's more sadly that's that's a short list and if the situation continues as is there's sure to be greater risk of atrocities for both minorities and women and religious minorities as well as ethnic minorities and if I can just ask Shikrit just to follow up on that is there particular regions or parts of the country that you think are especially important or or require more focus and attention I think if if you just go back to a particular survey if you start with the Hazaras or the panchiris I mean just this is we're talking right now right historically there's been um but also the Sikhs it's just the list that we need to be able to track the evidence and I think this is where the UN human rights council the new repertoire comes in his office is very um Richard Barnett his office is very critical it should be resourced it should be well staffed and they should be able to gather all of this evidence there's a lot of Afghans in the diaspora community that are very active they're actually sharing this information I'm happy to make those connections if anybody wants to reach out to help collect that evidence thanks thank you for that Parkwinda your perspective on this I think I I agree with what Shukria just said I'm happy to hear from others um comparison to other cases where we have seen mass atrocities unfold what lessons are there that we can learn and draw from thanks Naomi and thanks to my fellow panelists it's great to be on this this panel with you and to be learning from you as we go along in this discussion as Naomi mentioned I'm going to try to provide a bit of a comparative perspective what can we learn from other situations and as I'm listening to Shukria outline the risks as they exist you see the challenge I think that is really presented by the situation which is when there is the sort of high level of imminent risk regularly what are we really looking for to try to understand how risk is evolving and how we should be responding to evolving risks and what I would say overall and I think this holds true of state practice as well is we're looking for changes in the way that perpetrators are approaching their victims in the way that rhetoric is being used and in the way that restrictions are being imposed upon the population and so just some initial thoughts on this when we see the sort of civilian targeting patterns that are being used for many of the attacks I think Farhan is absolutely right that when you're targeting children infants women you're sending a message about the continued presence of the community in country that could easily shift to brought them in scope or scale and if we're if that were to happen we would want to be mindful of that and see that as an evolving risk within the context of Afghanistan we do see this happen in other contexts I would look at sort of Boko Haram in Nigeria and as they became bigger and had more of a political message to send they went from sort of low-scale attacks to mass kidnappings of girls forced marriage larger attacks intended to really send messages to the civilian populations so you're looking for changes in how a perpetrator is approaching their strategy similarly changes in rhetoric we're hearing a lot of sort of existential calls exclusionary calls that that certain populations don't belong in Afghanistan those will call us for violence at some point if we were to see a risk escalation and we should be watching for that what this rhetoric does this sort of derogatory rhetoric the dehumanizing rhetoric is create that enabling environment for violence and then at that point perpetrators are simply looking for an opportunity to carry out violence on a broader scale I would also just mention one more which is the restriction on rights and this is where we're seeing I think lately in the recent the near term a lot of restrictions on women and particularly with the the hijab decree I would I would reference which is sending us a continued message that women no longer belong in afghan society that they shouldn't be seen or visible but what is potentially really problematic about the decree is it's also requiring that families enforce the hijab requirement on their female family members and so likely we're about to see an increase in violence against women that will not be reported because women will not have an outlet to report violence against them and the state is asking citizens to impose and enforce the rules that it's establishing the de facto state and so I would say just overall from a comparative perspective in this sort of intense sort of high intensity imminent risk environment we're looking for changes in the way that perpetrators are acting the way that perpetrators are speaking and then potentially also shocks that might provide them with an opportunity to pursue mass violence and it's important just as a final point to remember that the use of mass atrocities is never an end in itself it's typically a tactic to achieving a political goal so where the potential perpetrator sees an opportunity to further their political goal that mass violence can come about and that can be an opportunity to use it more robustly thank you for that incredibly helpful just to remind us of how rapidly evolving a situation can be in the different motivations that may heighten the likelihood that potential perpetrators will resort to the commission of mass atrocities to achieve different goals and ends I was wondering just as we think about that one of the I think key aims of this conversation is to really remind people watching remind policymakers that there are preventive and protective tools available that can and should be used there's been some discussion already about the importance of documentation and accountability in that vein and I was just wondering if you could talk a little bit from your experience about what are the capabilities responsibilities and practical next steps for the US government to take that can help to monitor and then prevent mass atrocities if we were to really kind of take seriously this idea that there should be an atrocity prevention strategy that is applied in the context of Afghanistan as we have seen called for with the passage of the LA Wiesel Act as we've seen kind of embraced through the articulation of now three different presidents who kind of articulated that atrocity prevention is a core national security priority for the United States what would that actually look like Lauren? Sure thanks Naomi and I will I think I'll look at this through sort of four priorities that the US should be taking as they think about this and they've been mentioned already by each of my colleagues on the panel and by you as well and the priority I would say is documentation is strengthening the ability of human rights to get information out of Afghanistan on the human rights situation so strengthening human rights human rights monitoring and documentation efforts and this is particularly critical in the face of the dissolution of the independent human rights commission this will help us fully understand the scope and scale of the risks that we're facing as Farkanda mentioned there's a lot of confusion over who the perpetrators are and that's pretty normal in this kind of scenario victims are not in the moments in which they're being victimized that it's not always clear who is doing who's committing the crime who the perpetrator is and who they represent and so establishing that record is going to be really important to trying to understand the situation and to respond to it appropriately and so the kind of support that should be could be provided and should be provided in support independent journalism and then support to a local documentation initiatives and these are ongoing in Afghanistan so it would be support to ongoing local afghan initiatives these initiatives are going to be the ones that have credibility with vulnerable communities they're going to be the ones who are already collecting and sharing information but could use the support and sort of professionalizing the work that they do thinking about how to systematically collect information how to make sure they're securing informed consent from people who they're speaking with and that they're thinking sort of in a forward-leaning manner about how their their information is going to be used is it going to be used to establish an evidentiary record is it going to be passed on to advocacy organizations to support reporting well it's support processes of memorialization and these initiatives these kinds of initiatives are ongoing in a number of different contexts including in Syria, South Sudan and in a more nascent way in Ukraine they're conducted in situations where both the documenters and victims face fairly considerable risks in collecting information and that is part of what needs to be supported is thinking through how to to help them be secure in the the information that they're collecting and how to to ensure that they're able to operate in a way that sort of maximizes both their security and the security of victims these initiatives require secure storage platforms so a few of the things that they could use secure storage platforms training on personal security access to some of the various applications that have been developed to document atrocities like the eyewitness to atrocities app or apps that allow them to hide information if they happen to be questioned or detained all of these are being used in ongoing conflict documentation settings and they're largely supported by the State Department's Bureau of Human Rights, Democracy and Labor and so the DRL should and can be leading on these initiatives to provide support to locally led documentation initiatives in addition I want to note a new development that's happened around the Ukraine conflict which is the conflict observatory which is supported by the State Department's Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations and is a consortium of organizations who are collecting verifying and analyzing evidence that is publicly available so open source information and they're doing so too in the interest of furthering accountability for Russian atrocities the contexts are slightly different in the sense that Ukraine has more internet penetration and therefore there's more of this online information available but this could set a really important precedent for documentation efforts particularly those led by the US government and those documentation efforts in the past have fed into US atrocities determinations which could also come in as a helpful step within this case as well so just and I'll be brief I realized I'm speaking for a while now to a couple of other comparative perspectives here support to the UN special repertoire the appointment of Richard Bennett is a really important step in this process but he is understaffed and underfunded for the mandate that's been presented to him and that's going to present some challenges in really maximizing the utility of this position and this is where our US government colleagues should be thinking about how to support him in this process and I might point to the special repertoire on human rights in Myanmar as an example of how this can be done well Tom Andrews is a former main congressman who has been highly critical of the Burmese government the Myanmar the junta at the moment and of the international community for the ways in which they're fueling mass atrocities that are occurring within Myanmar at the moment and so the practices that he's learned and developed I think could be helpful to apply to this situation a couple of of significant differences is part of the special special repertoire Bennett's mandate is to both support civil society but also to support the government when the coup happened in Burma that sort of government support mandate came off of Tom Andrews plate so he was able to be very critical of the government because he wasn't trying to bridge that gap between supporting a de facto authorities in in fulfilling their human rights obligations and then supporting civil society members and expressing their human rights concerns to the government in addition as a congress former congressman he knows how to advocate with to the US audience which I think is a way in which our colleagues in the government can support special repertoire Bennett to make sure that his findings are disseminated effectively across different fora and I would say too and maybe we could we could continue this conversation and I can I can allow my colleagues to jump in as well talking about the potential of establishing a formal UN backed investigative mechanism to give more credibility to the information collected to centralize it to allow it to be stored and to potentially inject the languages mass atrocities into the conversation I think is a priority we should think of there are three of those that exist internationally now one for Syria one for Myanmar and one for crimes committed by Dias which are primarily if which is working in Iraq right now but it's not geographically limited it can operate with host a Consent and Security Council approval in any situation in which Dias crimes are occurring and that's that's an important option to consider and then finally working towards breaking the cycle of impunity and perhaps we can we can I can pause here and we can discuss this further but thinking through not only what the ICC can provide to Afghan victims but also universal jurisdiction cases where we are engaging domestic courts particularly in Europe and seeking to hold perpetrators accountable for atrocities that have occurred in Afghanistan thank you Lauren so much for that incredibly comprehensive overview especially in regards to the components around documentation that are very practical and actionable in this particular instance and where really it's quite stark the contrast between what has not been happening in Afghanistan but has been done in other cases so how do we ensure that we actually see equity in the international response for the people of Afghanistan as Shikri has said with 38 million people whose lives many of whom are imperiled at this particular moment one thing that I think is important just as you talked about the the value of collecting analyzing and preserving information potentially for future prosecutions is what you said at the outset that this is also important just from the perspective of fact finding of sharing with the public especially the Afghan people the human rights reports the acknowledgement of the crimes that have been committed the use of actual calling crimes by their names if these are war crimes crimes against humanity if they're genocide actually invoking the language I think our USIP colleagues have been incredibly forceful in saying that when we talk about certain members including actors within the Taliban government who have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity we should be acknowledging that we tend to default to the use of the term terrorism we see that also in the Iraq context we also see individuals being prosecuted for crimes that could constitute genocide but they're being charged with counterterrorism charges there's a whole host of elements that when we talk about documentation we can pursue first and foremost helping the Afghan people better have visibility on the crimes that have occurred those who have held responsible and as you mentioned yourself your own family has been the victims of these crimes helping people locate and know where their loved ones are what happened to them ensuring that people are held accountable for those horrific crimes is so critically important Shukri I wanted to turn to you for your thoughts on what type of prevent and protective options are available and also just your assessment of how the international community has been doing thank you Naomi just want to say that I think Lauren set the stage really well with this question so I won't duplicate what she said but maybe want to just emphasize a few points the US as you mentioned as well has an obligation under the Ali was al genocide and atrocities prevention act which states that it's in the US core national security interests to prevent atrocities so the atrocity early warning task force is quite active actually pwg the coalition I coordinate it engages with the regularly and quarterly on different conflicts and we've had conversations on Afghanistan as well and I want to say to start with both the Ali was al genocide and atrocities prevention act and the global fragility act it's calling for integration and a holistic US government approach a coordinated US government approach to prevent atrocities around the world we're seeing that approach in real time on Ukraine we are not seeing it on other conflicts we're especially not seeing it in Afghanistan which is why the population suffering acutely the obviously the US can support and this has been mentioned I'll repeat it the UN special um repertoire's office in evidence gathering in documentation but also the atrocity early warning task force can do an updated country assessment um on Afghanistan and and look at these indicators and think about programming in other options uh soft power options we have the uh and then I also say you can't look at it so it's like how did we get to where we are right so there's some lessons learned that the US government also needs to pay attention to there's a few things we did in the last 20 years a few big things that really led us to where we are so one of the first lessons is if you want to prioritize prevention the trustee prevention don't empower no non perpetrators and atrocity crimes um that have committed atrocity crimes and warlords to official government posts it was critical missed up on USG's part which didn't help any credibility among Afghans with the with the two governments the second lesson is prioritize peace over over military solutions that was not done in Afghanistan we missed very critical markers and if there was peace all the other great work that was done would have been sustainable so peace and reconciliation the focus came at the very last end of that war and therefore we missed we missed a lot of great moments where peace could have happened and we didn't have to be in today's situation so prevention prioritizing that prevention the third lesson is practice what we preach right because if if we are now calling out Russia on war crimes but then we've had our own war crimes and conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan that there's been no accountability for we can go to Abu Ghraib and many other examples but the truth is if you if the US government wants to be held to wants to hold others to a moral standard to human rights standard we also have to uphold it in practice and then the fourth and last thing I think it's also a lesson I think for all advocates working on this right now and and I'm glad we have a huge audience watching this today I love what's happening on Ukraine in terms of accountability for a trust reprimand I want to see that in every other conflict where vulnerable people are suffering that includes Afghanistan and many other parts of the world I'll stop there thank you thank you so much for for that chakran wanted to turn it on now for going to your perspective and kind of afghan priorities for prevention and protection um thank you Naomi I think I will build on on what my colleagues on the panel said tonight but highlighting really and also prioritizing that there is a need for recognition for acknowledgement and for documentation coming back to the hasara community it has been at least 120 years under our record that the community are facing mass atrocities including ethnic cleansing persecution and even a genocide what we what has passed is past last 20 years missed opportunities lessons to be learned but I think um what we really missed was to understand that or our capabilities that were in our domain to understand that how how the country how how how the situation is evolving going back to your earlier question and and how um how the vulnerabilities are being highlighted and and being maximized today under the Taliban regime or an Afghanistan that is ruled by the Taliban government um and with an very unfortunate and uncertain future but recognizing that um the hasara community um are facing um targeted killings targeted attacks and acknowledging that uh there are there are systematic discriminatory policies in the country we do know fortunately about half of the population about women and girls who are being being sidelined even wiped veiled in what in very brutal ways um uh and also get highlighted internationally but again um that acknowledgement about the community communities um in the country that are becoming a lot more vulnerable under the Taliban regime I think this is something that we need to look a lot a lot more and and and that take us to that even I mean I understand practically what is possible and what is not possible for policymakers or for the international community in their engagement in Afghanistan but um in the limited engagement that we have I think there are still possibilities of um of documenting these crimes that take place and understanding the nature of it and taking away um politics out of it I mean they are being very politicized my point about that it took 120 years for the hasara persecution and the vulnerability vulnerabilities of hasaras to be um recognized at the level that it is being today shows that we the international community really missed something a lot happened in that country to the community but if they did not had the language and the tongue to speak to the international community but the international community as well lacked the ability and also the capability and also the willingness to to recognize those so being a member of the community for us recognition means a lot it may not solve our problem it may not secure our mosques and our school but it does give us the security that our vulnerability is being recognized it's being acknowledged and with that I think documenting the crimes that take place against the community and then the other steps that comes practically how we could secure it I share an example with you it was during my communication with our colleagues that organized the event as the mazar massacre or the mazar killings were happening there were suicide attacks on the hasara route targeting transportation that were taking they're very um poor and vulnerable members of the community I mean living in a particular suburb and taking the particular route and they were targeted um and and my family member went to the hospital to give blood but they were not able to record anything they were not able to take a single photo um as as much as plus 30 people were killed and their bodies were brought to the hospital there was many more wounded people and there was people giving blood but they were not allowed to take a single photo from that in from that tragic incident because the Taliban denied that that shows that documentation by local people comes with a risk and here comes the roles and responsibilities of international communities and and and responsible bodies and instruments that allows as such organizations to be able to operate in Afghanistan and with a particular focus on the on the hasara community because we can't um the the community is resilient they're doing their best but the new the need to support uh in in the context of today's Afghanistan with the Taliban um muting and the media the civil society and advocates I think if looking at this um context it become very clear what to prioritize internationally we are also thinking practically you know we're not asking um what is not possible but as simple as something as recognition acknowledging documentation I think these are the very first steps that we need to take and then um hopefully um it could set us to the right direction that we could prevent um mass atrocities thank you thank you so much for for that you know in listening to you it really kind of drives home that the failure to really center Afghan voices in the decades of international policy response on Afghanistan has in part contributed to the situation that we're in right now and as you so clearly stated um one of the most basic asks that you and your community and others are asking for is a recognition of the the value and import of that voice but also of what is happening to you um in listening to all three of your responses I can't help but ask this this question of you know is there not a heightened duty of care also in this situation on the international community in terms of the efforts that the US government and other governments undertake to try to prevent mass atrocities given the the decades of involvement engagement um and heightened promises and expectations that were made to the afghan people and then a very dramatic um change in the situation within the country I wanted to turn to some of the questions from the audience and remind our viewers that you can put questions into the bottom of the event page for the the panelists um Allison it'll is picking up on this point that a few of you have touched on on what is your assessment of the US government's engagement in terms of an overarching strategy and a whole of government approach this seems particularly important given the complexity of the crisis Shukriya you've talked about how there seems to be an absence of a whole government approach at this point is there something that you'd like to add um to to that assessment I think post post US troop withdrawal there's been a little bit of silence I have to say and I don't want to throw my USG colleagues under the bus because I do work with them very closely on multiple conflicts and they do see that there is foundation being built to actually address atrocity crimes and there's more documentation there's more information being shared with civil society so I think working level staff functionaries I definitely want to you know give them a shout out actually I think they're doing a great job in working under severe and difficult circumstances and they do reach out but then when we look at leadership I think that's where the issue remains there is a we prioritize geopolitical will over the fact that we want to prevent the atrocities around the world and I think not just in Afghanistan but in any conflict if we continue that way we're just playing lip service to the L.U.S.L. genocide atrocities prevention act if you want to make never again a reality and that's what this community has been asking for for a long time you really have to do that by practice and we are not seeing that practice by leadership we're not seeing that prioritization we can just do a very easy google search and you look at what we are spending in war and defense and hard power and then what are we spending really on peace and prevention not even like it doesn't equate to pennies when you do that comparison right so we have big big issues and I think the most important thing that could probably come out of this conversation first is the highlighting the the needs of atrocity prevention of Afghanistan but also the broader picture where are we when it comes to prioritizing prevention around the world we're always at the late side the atrocity happened now let's see what we can do and this is just not ever going to get fixed if we really don't get serious about the way we're doing so I hope that the leadership is listening to this and I hope that they take this seriously because especially for American taxpayers we end up paying a lot more in the aftermath of atrocities because a lot more is needed and then you have very limited tools but if you look at those early warning signs on different conflicts and I'll highlight the early warning project by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum that comes out every year there's a lot of indicators that for many countries we could work on and prevent but we don't because we don't put our appropriators are not putting the amount of funding needed actually to deal with the demand around the world for atrocity prevention and so I think we have to get a little honest and in our self-reflection on how much we're prioritizing never again thanks I'll stop there thank you so much for that I feel like all too often the focus of the conversation is on making genocide determinations and once you've hit the point where you're making genocide determination it means that you have failed to prevent and we have lost untold number of lives since societies have been forever changed Lauren is there anything that you'd like to add to Alison's question so I would agree with with Shukria overall I think the thing that I would add and what makes Afghanistan unique among the US involvement in atrocities situations or is that is our own involvement and I think you refer to it Naomi as the heightened duty of care and I think that is the way that our colleagues within the US government are looking at it but articulating that in a sort of policy sense has been slow to develop and has been sort of awkward because there's a reckoning that happens with the way that the evacuations went in August with the ways in which we didn't see fairly obvious signs that the Taliban was going to take over the country and so in many ways this is a sort of unprecedented situation I think there's there's ways in which we should respond and that's that's what we've been discussing this morning but our colleagues are struggling with how that sort of the being torn between that response and and sort of understanding our own involvement and driving the risk in this instance thanks so much for that it is unprecedented yet there are some examples in the context of Iraq that we could draw from where we saw unfortunately the targeting of religious and ethnic minorities over 900,000 people had to flee from Nineveh in the North ISIS committed genocide there and that is an area where we have seen a really robust investment in documentation as you said for example we did see actually a form of a military intervention to a degree to open up a pathway for Yazidis to flee but where there has been continued to struggling on what an atrocity prevention strategy should look like so it's an area where we have to continue to really focus and bring attention I think the point also around what do you do in the aftermath of this large focus on evacuations we have to remember the vast majority of people at risk and who are vulnerable will never have the chance to leave Afghanistan and in a way when we talk about religious and ethnic minorities for that to happen means that we would see a future of Afghanistan without the diversity without these communities being able to live in in their own home so it is a you know I think that Shikria said at the beginning of the conversation this is such a critical and urgent conversation this is one where we have to be able to kind of walk and chew gum at the same time because the the urgency of the needs on the ground are so great Shikria you have had your hand up yeah I just wanted to thank you I just wanted to you know emphasize what Lauren and yourself just said but you know like we also can't do a trust you prevention in a silo right so looking at US responsibility in the way we drew we did not have a peace accord in place we did not have UN peacemakers in place before we withdrew hence the colossal disaster we also when we were negotiating the US Taliban agreement we did not have the Afghan government involved we did not have a woman's representation we did not have minority representation this is where that self-reflection is important if we were saying for 20 years we believe in democracy we believe in human rights we believe in women's rights and then we turn around and we do something like that how can any afghan take us seriously honestly if I was sitting in afghanistan one of the 38 million people I'd look at the US I'll be like okay cold war you abandon this afterwards and then after 20 years of promises and much good work done by many people I don't want to say that I wasn't done but not looking at the sustainability of that and withdrawing the manner in which we did and then of course there were at the 11th hour we tried to evacuate as many as many people as we could but we can't evacuate 38 million people you still have to solve the problem and I think here the US bears the greatest responsibility with all its NATO allies and all the coalition allies to work with the UN to solve the problem for the long run I'll stop there thank you thank you so much turning to to you for conduct before we take another question um thank you maybe not directly to the question but in reflections to what colleagues have said um what the US can do international community can do in this current situation look um coming to the today's topic looking at the Hazara community we're talking about a very small suburb of one to probably one two to three million people in dash tibachi west of Kabul and as now we are speaking anything is possible there another another targeted killing that could kill plus 200 children but what have been done so far we have been speaking about this in the positive light in the last two years at least but not before but what has been done it's practically very um something that that is possible for that that could practically could be protected a small area in geographically that the community has been targeted there has been reports by the by UNAMO there has been 35 plus attacks on the community in recent years and um and the the typology of attack that was mentioned earlier in today's talk happened in that particular geography which is very small very limited but with a very dense population and nobody has been able to take a step in being in the state and now um another regime or the international community to protect this community and today um as we speak we could go off and finish this this webinar and then another attack happened another 200 children or or or other members of the hazard community um die so i think we really need to boil down to very practical steps about protection of the community even if it's just dash tibachi even if it's that just that particular location in Kabul if it's hard for you to go to Bahamian or Daikundi or other places dash tibachi is few kilometers away from embassies and and the presidential palace and the airport and this is where the community is being targeted by the so-called ISIS the Taliban or other other groups and and it doesn't extend more than few kilometers and we haven't been able to do that and this is where I think we need to the community is craving and desperate to see a very small step the international community including the US could take to show that they're being recognized and they're not forgotten especially after what the community contributed in the last 20 years and and this is it's not just the number of people being killed it's also that that the morale of the people the morale of the community that is being really um destroyed because they thought that they could change things they could sacrifice they couldn't and they could change it but but but now it's not it's not happening so with this I just want to emphasize that the community is very desperate to see and this is very important for the morality of it if it's not very much on on on on being practical on the protection of the entire community thanks thank you for that just that notion of feeling abandoned as your community faces a really serious existential threat to to your survival is if there's a more clarion call out there for action I'm not sure what it could be it's just so clear I wanted to pick up on a theme that you touched on and I think each of the panelists have talked about more and especially in your conversation or in documentation we have a question from Mali from Virginia one clear contrast between the situation in Ukraine and Afghanistan is that the Ukraine government is welcoming investigations into war crimes committed by their opponent whereas the Taliban are seeking to avoid investigations into atrocities within their country what is the track record of atrocity prevention in countries where the government are perpetrators or impose investigations like China and Burma are there any good tools in those cases and maybe I'll just add a second which is you did mention also the existence of apps that can help in the documentation effort there is also an effort by the Taliban and others to try to restrict the access to the use of these apps questions about how to secure electronic data how can I can safely collect and preserve documents as well maybe I'll start roaring with you and if others have have comments we'll turn to you sure thank you and it's a really great question and I think Mali's pulling out an important point which is part of why the process of accountability in Ukraine has been so smooth and so immediate is that the Ukrainian officials are both able to prosecute war crimes on their own and are interested in prosecuting the crimes both committed by Russians but also by Ukrainian military forces and that's obviously not the case in Afghanistan and it's typically not the case in many of the places where documentation missions are required I think one of the reasons the documentation has been so successful in the case of Myanmar is because we're documenting primarily within the refugee camps for the Rohingya and Bangladesh so we're able to access this easier the documentation can happen in a safer way that said there are ways of doing documentation that can be that can happen within this sort of really insecure conflict setting and what happens in those instances is there's a reliance on technology when it's available but I think there's also a recognition that the tech can be either shut down either due to sort of low capacity in country or due to sort of a focus from state actors on what kind of technology is being used and so frequently what happens in documentation missions is that there's deference to those who are operating on the ground what is the best way to collect information is it through photos is it through victim or witness statements where you're conducting interviews and then how do you tailor them to ensure that you're not particularly visible that you're not putting a person you're speaking with at risk and that you are not doing something that's going to raise the attention of local authorities but the ongoing conversation and it's an imperfect one because just as documenters are adapting and evolving their practices so are state authorities and so are perpetrators and so if documentation is too frequently on the radar state authorities defective leaders of interested actors are going to be on the lookout for documenters and to try to and we'll try to actively cut off access to vulnerable populations and that's happened in a number of contexts so I would say it's a combination of both thinking through the options that are available but really working with local communities and local documenters to try to to take advantage of both of their their knowledge of the security situation I also want to highlight something that's critically important for documentation and insecure settings which is human rights defender protections there are going to be times when documenters are going to be at imminent risk and in that instance we as the international community have a duty to protect them because just as they are carrying out the important work of documentation protecting them sends a message to state authorities too of the perspectives that the international community takes on human rights matters and human rights documentation and so that needs to be part of our agenda as well and again the state department the bureau of democracy human rights the labor has very good practices on that that will need to be tailored to the afghanistan context thank you so much for that war yes please um yeah I think with the current situation on the ground we need to come with innovative ways of engagement and support on the ground I think grassroots organizations are playing a very critical role right now if we look at the how and the humanitarian situation is being handled knowing that there are big international organizations but there are very many small grassroots organization operating in the country still who are who are not able to evacuate or who are who but they still operated they believed in the cost in the cause and they are underground but they are making their ways in in doing their work I mean in touch with several of them but I think um is supporting grassroots organization in the communities not just in Kabul or urban areas but in rural areas um uh in vulnerable communities will be really really critical to be able to understand a document um the situation in in those provinces let me tell you in my province in daikundi there is one journalist it has about over or less or more one million population but there is one journalist existing in the country that that we know and and he he he struggles with finding food or making the end for his himself and his family so I think we need to come up with very innovative and creative approaches on how we are going to engage in Afghanistan and really boil it down to uh um engaging with people in local communities local organizations looking at the track record and also supporting them they will be the one that could give you the most realistic picture of what is happening in the country be it for women and girls be it for the hazard community or other vulnerable community or others I think this is very critical if we like usual or like the tradition rely on big organizations which um which I have my respect for them but it also comes to their limitation the politicization of the topic and also the way in which the report which could affect um for us to understand what is fact on the ground um and then particularly on the hazard community the civil society has almost collapsed in Afghanistan but there are still many more left in the country I mean the civil society leaders from the hazard community which I am aware of they have not been able to evacuate because they were working in the grass roots and they were not in the in the in the lists for any embassies or or part of any big networks in Kabul to be able to evacuate which was really shaped and influenced by those those those political networks they were still working they were still operating they have no support they don't have the end of the day they don't have any food on their table but they're still very dedicated to the cause I think um another aspect for international community to be able to understand or or find or those people is to engage with diasporas there's a large numbers of Afghan diasporas in every country um and I would highlight and recommend here engage with as diverse group as you can not who you have been dealt with in the past 20 30 years of the Afghan conflict but with everyone else to be able to really grasp um and find your way out into the into the country to the grass root and I really think that the meaningful change always comes from the grass roots organizations and then your support and your help I think we all wholeheartedly agree with everything that you just said there I am struck by one thing that we haven't touched on which um is the fact that we need innovation today to look at the crimes that are occurring today and the crimes that will occur in the future but there was an immense amount of work done at great personal risk over the last 20 plus years to document the crimes that occurred crimes perpetrated by a number of different perpetrators including crimes perpetrated by the the NATO ISAF forces and much of that documentation remains in the country um and there needs to be a really serious effort to try to find a way to ensure that that information is preserved those are thousands tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of people's personal experiences that have been entrusted into those who took their narratives or um documents and other forms of evidence that can and should be used so there is a real urgent need to find creative solutions to make sure that all of that effort that was undertaken is not lost and that it forms the record and the narrative of the country's history and the history of all of these individuals and communities that we've been talking about. Chakri, I wanted to ask if you had anything that you wanted to add to this question or to turn it to the end? Thanks I actually just really want to thank you and I only feel pointing out that the ICC have collected all of this and a lot of Afghans have put their lives at risk and and I hope that that will be preserved and that that should be the new human rights um repertoire's priority um and I also want to thank Bailey uh Lauren Bailey for for all the great points you laid out I do want to take the conversation down to long-term solutions I don't want to put this burden in Afghans clearly they're under difficult circumstances we should not be putting this burden of evidence collection on Afghans at this critical stage it really needs to be a UN independent investigation effort and we need to be supporting that the second thing is we cannot not solve the Afghan political crisis and humanitarian crisis and expect the trustees to go away so we really need to focus the USG needs to support any UN effort into peace building into truth and reconciliation commission that should be established it's really hard to solve what's happening today in Afghanistan without getting some of these leaders to talk to each other and forgive the past and reset the Taliban need to be held uh US needs to hold the Taliban to the agreement to their end of the agreement inclusive government women's rights protected minorities protected ethnic religious minorities as well and then I also want to say that often when we talk about women and as afghan american women this this has been a painful thing to watch for 20 years so I want to point it out we're always looking at the veil the unveiling the veiling that I'm really tired of it women are suffering from economic issues the rule of law is not established the way women needed the protection in the last 20 years it's much worse now we're paying for those repercussions um they have economic needs they have security needs they have education needs and I want the focus now on those needs and I'm tired of this veil unveil that should be their right they should be able to decide if they want to veil they don't want to veil but this should not be the american or western media focus because that is just gaslighting the issue and I for one just not going to hear it anymore thank you thank you very much for pointedly uh outlining where the focus needs to be uh and to reminding people not to be distracted um I wanted to just in closing ask each of you if you don't mind um we had one last question from Kelly Burkhouse on what can individuals do to push for a real solution so maybe just in each of your closing remarks if you could just reflect on what you would like to see from individuals uh and how they can stand in solidarity with the afghan people I would be grateful for that in your concluding remarks I'll start uh shakri with you it's tough it's it's a heavy issue and you can clearly see my emotions in it I just want to start with gratitude and thank yous to both usip and and to you Naomi and to ushm and particularly as a partner of bbwg um you know I think we have to look at individually our own biases and we really if we want to prioritize prevention if we want to do atrocity prevention if we want to really uh you know not give uh just sort of not use never again as a political tool but really as never again we are against genocide I think it really requires self-reflection self-correction holistic approaches to different conflicts and in afghanistan conflict obviously you want to reach out to the advocates that know there's the best the ones on the ground the peace builders the ones that have been active for 20 years the ones that can actually really help the peace and reconciliation and reintegration process of afghan society as a whole really have to I would say emphasize on the big picture solution where we're working on the immediate which is prevent harm to mass communities like the azara community to just prevent that don't wait don't wait for another episode of an atrocity event that's it I'll stop there thank you very much thanks everyone thank you shakria Lauren sure I'll jump in to say that I think when we think about individually what we can do to to prevent further atrocities in afghanistan it's really it's supporting our afghan colleagues and really understanding what this process means to them too what their interests are what the risks are and what they would recommend that we do I think a lot of times these conversations get pulled into broader political discussions they get pulled into our own sort of regional interests and we lose at the center of this the people who are at very serious risk and so as an individual how best to support this process is to do some of what we did today and I will say thank you to to parkanda to shakria Naomi I've learned a lot from from all of you today and so keep I would say keep talking to our to the afghan friends and keep learning about the risks and what they are looking for from their future so we can design prevention initiatives that are supportive of achieving that goal thank you so much for that Lauren and finally parkanda I think knowing that what afghanistan is today individually it's important to know that what is happening today in afghanistan the outcome the result is not what an average afghan would desire be it anybody across the country today we have girls not being able to go to school there's an atrocity of an ethnic group and there is silencing of journalists and civil society organization as a country I think we are at the bottom of the letter of every indicator that tells about our development and an average afghan does now want that an average afghan has done everything they can do to be able to lift their life out of this cycle of conflict and and misery that has been imposed to us both nationally and internationally by different actors and your sympathy your compassion individually makes a lot of difference and the uncertainty that every afghan lives today be it inside the country or in diaspora it's very difficult I mean it's it's heartbreaking that what we are going through as people of that geography and please do everything you can in whatever category that interests you be it girls education be it woman rights be it democracy or human right or prevention of atrocity crimes against minority groups or a vulnerable ethnic group like the hazardous to change something in afghanistan because our destiny in this in that geography is not only weaved by ourselves but it is it is historically being given to others in the world to decide for us I'll end with that and thank you so much for that maybe just in closing I'll just end with where we started which is there's absolutely nothing inevitable about what is happening you know the holocaust was preventable these crimes are preventable if we can find the will to identify the solutions and if we can commit for the long term to helping alongside our afghan partners friends colleagues to affect the type of change that we've been talking about in this conversation we can hopefully create an outcome and improve the the future for so many people who at this particular point as we've talked about for the last hour and a half do you not know tomorrow if they're going to be the victim of an attack at a house of worship they do not know if their children are going to be killed when they go to school do not know if their medical care will be available to them do not know if they'll have jobs food and so many people who are at immense risks are doing the type of important human rights documentation fact-finding and life-sustaining efforts that that our panelists have been talking about today been a real privilege to be able to be joined by the three of you for this conversation and immense gratitude to us ip who's been doing remarkable work on afghanistan for a long time thank you for the opportunity to partner and thank you to our us ip and us holocaust memorial museum colleagues who helped to make today's conversation possible i hope that it helps to compel renewed focus attention and that it helps to in a small way remind our afghan colleagues and friends that they are not abandoned and many of us will continue to work to try to ensure that there is a better future thank you