 You can hear me good morning, afternoon and evening depending on where you all are joining us from. My name is Naomi Nash, I'm going to be your host for the next hour as we discuss the topic of building ecosystem trust and collaboration for digital transformation. I've been helping the ecosystem in the city of Birmingham and the surrounding areas in the UK throughout six or seven years now. I'm very passionate about and I truly believe in the power of communities and ecosystems, but they don't always happen naturally and they require a lot of work and a lot of collaboration. I'm really pleased to be joined by some awesome people from all over the world to talk you through their experience and give you some top tips. So first off, if we can get a wave as I as I as I introduce you, we have Julia Traverso, who is the principal cryptographer at SciSec, a cybersecurity startup where she is responsible for innovation project funding patterns and research. Hi Julia. We also have, hi, we also have Marius Stanchu, who's a lawyer and a blockchain enthusiast can talk to us about some of that a bit later. Hello. Hi Marius. I can see everyone now. We have Cesar Conteiros, focus, Cesar focuses on identifying new technologies for Ministry of Communications and Transport of Mexico. We have Pomsa Diani, who is the founder of Pan African Network for Investment and Development and a partner in the southern African region for the Regional Consortium of Experts for Development. Hi, and thank you for joining us. And last but not least, we have Henry Dobson, who's the founding director of the Institute of Technological Ethics, a very important topic I'm looking forward to getting into. So hello and thank you all for joining me today from quite literally all over the world. It's very exciting. And so just about this topic, we all know, many collaboration initiatives can be ineffective because they are developed in silos without an overall understanding of how ecosystem stakeholders can collaborate to deliver our national development priorities. So we're talking about public sector, academia, professional services, the entrepreneurial support organizations, as well as the private sector need to be aligned to support innovators and entrepreneurs on their journey in the ever changing environment. So this ITU Global Innovation Forum 2020 session will provide insights on how we can build a culture of trust and collaboration. So here's the redo. Let's get started. And as I come to each of you internally, great if you could just say where you are currently in the world and maybe what time it is, it's just turned one o'clock in the afternoon here in the UK. I have no idea what time it is where you guys are. So Marius, if I could just come to you first. And it'd be great if you could just explain your, your experience with building trust and collaboration between different stakeholders I just mentioned. Yeah, so first of all, I'm in Bucharest, Romania. It's 3pm. So I'm having a good hour to say so. To answer your question and to try to be brief, as a lawyer, you tend to work a lot with legislation that is adopted without consulting the business environment or the people that are directly impacted by it. It's not uncommon to see laws which sound very good on paper, but in basically in real life they're not applicable. So why does this happen? I think it comes from the fact that lawmakers when they are writing laws they're not thinking about stakeholders, they're writing laws without getting feedback from the relevant industry. A good example of this is the, are the attempts to regulate new technologies such as distributed ledger technology with blockchain as its main star, artificial intelligence and so on. Who do you bring on the table to write about such a topic? Do you bring tech people as it is usually done or do you bring consultants, lawyers, hedge fund managers, why is it so important to bring all of them? As an example, at some point I was involved in Romania and drafting the first piece of legislation on distributed ledger such as blockchain. And I remember that in the first day we were literally arguing about things like, what is a ledger? What does distributed mean? We were shocked to see that lawyers and tech people see an electronic contract very differently. And it was quite frustrating because we had the feeling that we are arguing about these basic notions when we should get down to the real stuff, the most complex one. Come on, let's talk about blockchain, the things that are hot right now. But I think that this time consuming process maybe it's the only way to which you can come with something that is applicable to real life. It's easy to see stakeholders which are pursuing the same thing. As a lawyer, for example, it's not uncommon to see in a in a negotiation, persons with the same interest, but because they're not really listening to the other party, they think the other party has a different interest from them. And they are okay, I'm not listening to you, you want something from me, no, no, this is not going to happen. So in order to build bridge between stakeholders to say so, as simple as this may seem, from my perspective, you should establish a framework. Let's be clear on what we're talking about, because you might be surprised that we are talking about this the same thing but just using different words. So yeah, I think it's that simple. Thank you. Thank you for that. You say simple but I think I have the same problem with my husband. But no, I completely agree with you. That's really great insight. Thank you. And so Cesar from your experience. Would you, what would you say is the best way to kind of foster collaboration across relevance take a similar question, I suppose. Thank you very much Naomi. First of all, I'm based in Mexico City. So it's 714 am still pretty early for us over here. Answering the question I would say that as the creator of a project or idea, it is essential to engage all stakeholders, first individually, I would say, to bill report. So we, let's say, open the channel for communication with each of them individually instead of addressing. I would say all of them, since the beginning in bulk. So, we think that is very important to identify those different stakeholders, and to try and to try to develop that relationship with them. It is fundamental to listen to all of them to hear what they have to say, and to understand what their incentives are, what their motivations are and what, you know, even the fears are for them. It is, it is for us very relevant here in Mexico we have organized sets of round tables to discuss with different actors. What what would be good, good, good, a good way for them to approach and to to take a step forward regarding innovation so that would involve first and approach with each of them. And then you have to sit them at the table to get this discussion going. And as an enabler of the technology and innovation change, it is very important to build something that harmonizes and this is the real challenge I would say something that harmonizes the incentives, the motivations and everything that you just let me receive in this in this previous phase to actually lead other stakeholders to take the necessary steps to implement the idea so this would be a way of saying you know first you have to identify who they are and to work with them one to one, then set set them at the table, sit them and have make them have the conversation, and then to identify as you as the enabler of the change, what the things would be necessary to get from from from all the different actors what each actor could put on the table and offer to actually make this collaboration happen. So, so I'll say that thanks. I think it's, I completely agree with you and we try and do that's why I work for Technation and that's kind of what we try to do across the UK. And can always be tough. I know it can try and to listen to everybody's opinions and what they think is the is the priority at the time so but I agree very, very important. Thank you. So, if I can come to you next, your resume is pretty impressive I must say, and I'm sure you have lots of experience so what would you, what kind of advice would you have regarding the adoption of new technologies for the communities they're being developed for. Thank you very much and thanks for inviting me to be a participant in today's session. So from my side, I think I'm here representing communities because as much as we met them, when we met the stakeholders, we tend to leave them behind, or we leave them towards the end when the technology is ready. And it is ready for adoption and implementation and I think that's where we miss the plot in most of these things. What becomes important in involving communities is that I think I loved what my previous speakers spoke about where we say we need to elevate them to a level of being co-creators of the innovation. You must remember that they are part of the social construct and they get to see most of the social problems that are being experienced and they would be in a position to really add more value, a lot more value in how we orchestrate solutions for solving their problems. So we would develop problems, sorry, we do develop solutions, but mostly who is around the table is the innovator. It's the, it's the ecosystems of the academic, it's a private sector, it's a public sector, but we never call them to the table to say, when we localize the innovation, what is important for you for or make cultural fit perspective from a value add perspective. So the other factors I'd like to add is that also it's around the value statement. So when you bring them upfront into the development of the innovation, they get to understand the value of the innovation. You get to have the communities as the protectors of the innovation, because most of the innovation is dependent on infrastructure that we lay out. So once you get their lobbying and their buy in upfront, you get them to be the protectors, as well as the advisors on how do we build the ecosystems even further. You also find that from an innovator's perspective, we tend to have a single mind of saying, okay, we're solving an agriculture issue we're solving this issue. But inclusion of communities actually adds value to how we scale the innovations because they know what's on the ground and what could also be resolved by the innovation we're putting on the ground. So I would say their involvement is important because you find that half the time we invested in the infrastructure we invested in the innovation, but they end up being white elephants, because you have not really lobbied for their involvement upfront. And it becomes a ribbon cutting event, but we don't get to accelerate or leverage the benefit of the innovation on the ground. So including them upfront is empowerment. Firstly, you teach them how to use the technology. They then also because they have the foundation, they use the principles to also solve other problems. So there's an empowerment aspect. And I'd like to maybe refer to one of the innovations that have really worked in my environment, where we've deployed an internet in a community where we made the communities participants in how we deploy the infrastructure in how we formed commercial models around the infrastructure, because what we also tend to think we know is we tend to also think that we know the affordability of the people on the ground. The most creative commercial models came from the communities. And what also that added benefit for is that even when the funding is available to help them. There is sustainability because then they come up with creative commercial models of how we sustained the innovation and the infrastructure that is on the ground. Thank you very much. Thank you. It's a really good, good point to ensure that we are getting them involved sooner. I think maybe one of the reasons we don't is because we worry about there being delays. But I think going back to what Cesar was saying as well about having these conversations as early as we can is vital. So thank you for that insight. Henry, if I can come to you now. So ethics within technology is very important. Subject doesn't get talked about very much. I don't know if it's available everywhere yet but on Netflix there's a really good documentary about the ethics around some of the social media which I highly recommend. So how can we build ethics in technology that we develop and why should we? Yeah, thank you Naomi. And it's great to be here with you all. I'm calling in from Australia. And it's about 20 past 12 in the morning. So nice and early. And you're right to point out the new documentary on Netflix called The Social Dilemma. It is well worth watching because it does raise some very sort of dark sides around social media and big tech. But to answer your question, the starting point here really has to be human values. And there are two sides to this. First, as the other participants have mentioned and I'd like to echo all of their points because they're excellent and very valid and important for building ethics into technology and innovation. But the two sides really are the human values of society or the social values and then the values that the technology companies or tech based entities have themselves. So the starting point there really is to look at the values, either the business values or the company values and to compare those with social values. And I think one of the major problems we're seeing with technology today is that there is a divergence between the values that technology companies have. Now, of course, you know, one of the sort of primary objectives is is profit. But of course that doesn't always necessarily result in the ideal outcome for society. And so you do get divisions or tensions at least between what technology is doing and what the impacts are on broader society and human life. So, so values are absolutely fundamental. And, and we need these conversations we have to understand you what is it that we really do value as human beings. And then of course there are different contexts around that of course cultural contexts. There are different, of course, different regions of the world's different histories different religions and just just general different interests depending on where we live. And all of these sort of ultimately constitute our own human values, both as individuals and as and as members of society. So, you know, values are essential for for making technology more ethical. But then there are other ways to build ethics into technology. These are sort of buzzwords but you know diversity and inclusion, and they get thrown around a lot but they are absolutely fundamental again, because, especially with diversity, but equally of course inclusion. You they are primary mechanisms for understanding how subconscious bias can creep into the technology design, or be it the management and deployment of a technology product. The more the more minds you have overseeing those technology products and the broader sort of impacts beyond just the business setting itself will will keep, you know, good oversight hopefully on on how that technology is serving society. So diverse diversion, sorry diversity and inclusion are essential, but equally again, you're running auditing auditing processes over technology products, especially the algorithms and ensuring that we do have sufficient transparency for understanding the outcomes and the way that any any technology is influencing the human decision making process after the output is made. Because of course you can you can compound bias and discrimination, if you know if the management are using what are already biased outputs from from big data and algorithmic bias so transparency is critical in that respect. And then also thinking about and trying to preempt the the consequences that any technology products may or could have on society before it's deployed. So, you know, consequential risk analysis is a key piece of, you know, good ethical management for any technology company or any entity with your stakeholder of any kind it could be a government could be just a corporation, or even, you know, other sort of just other ways in which we we we leverage Facebook and social media for, you know, achieving particular purposes or aims. So yeah, you know, consequential consequential sort of analysis is is essential to for making, you know, the best out of our technology. Brilliant. Thank you very much. I think that's really, really interesting, especially if we've been talking about getting people involved in those decision making a lot earlier than we maybe are currently and just having someone in the room if you're listening that could be you to say what's the consequence of this is really, it's a great shout. Thank you very much. And last but not least, Julia, if I can come to you now. And so I'd love to speak with you about cybersecurity and how historically we think about it we're thinking about how that how we use it to protect ourselves from others. But when we're talking about collaboration and communities. What, what would you say about, is it possible to use, use it instead to enable that trust. Hi, first of all, I am calling from Switzerland and here is almost 230 in the afternoon. So yeah, you're right. So my main job and main topic, like I, my work is basically focusing on cryptography and cybersecurity. Nowadays, we are seeing that more and more, it is cryptography in particular there is enabling all these collaborations that then foster innovation that we were talking about. So for example, everyone is talking about AI to as a mean to boost innovation but for example what we see is that for, for example, very small startups that they are coming with a great idea to leverage AI. And then, you know, for example, improve digital agronomy and have any less polluting for the environment, etc. Like what they actually lacking of is the data is like the road data on which then AI can run on and the people that usually have collected the data are either big companies already or the government. But of course, those are for example, protected under the GDPR or are simply business core information that companies not necessarily want to outsource from their premise. And so what happens and like here is basically like an optimistic example that I provide so that we are not just talking about what is possible what like what will be possible is actually happening right now is that by specific and innovative cryptographic algorithms that enable to protect the data, but still to run computations on them, like government can trust those SME they can basically lend, like, give them for a while their their data just so for the training to happen. And then what the company like the small startup, for example, will get is just the result like the end up result of that algorithms while the road data will not will never be disclosed because of course like this might happen to be data related to people and therefore protected under the GDPR. Besides this type of of solution there are others so everybody is still talking about big data again and big data to for example cure cancer or like improve the medical treatment of patients. Again, for example, the number of patients that are treated for a certain disease in one hospital is not sufficient to basically basically allow a PhD student in in the medical field to have enough data again to process and to write the thesis on. And the bottleneck often of those PhD study. This is the fact that other hospitals from other countries will again not not not to give the data and again. There's other cryptographic means and cybersecurity that allow to store all the data in a distributed manner in a cloud environment and to run this this computation, even without leaving the premise, for example, so everybody has their intermediate result of their. artificial intelligence algorithm that will be landed to the PhD student and then this will draw the thesis and eventually hopefully improve a certain treatment of patients so yeah basically my perspective on this is about what with thanks to cybersecurity and this particular cryptography we are really able to do. And I think that yeah cybersecurity as you said is there to protect you against, you know, malicious attacker but in this case enables people that are willing to collaborate to do that. While still being compliant with the GDPR and protecting their patients and I think this is great. I think you're right thing. I think there's a lack of education in the general public kind of around this you get the scare tactics like from Netflix from the media. But actually there's good there's so much good that can be done from from big data. On big data come back to you Marius talk about blockchain a little bit a little bit more I know you mentioned it previously. Could you just explained really quickly for people that are watching the premise behind what blockchain is and talk about how you would suggest good ways to foster the adoption of the regulations that come alongside these these new technology so not just the technologies themselves but the legal regulations. I think that's, that's the issue here because I liked what was said earlier. I'll go for the beat how do you adopt regulations on topics like this, you involve communities. You see a lot of people people talking about blockchain machine learning all this stuff, but, and countries that are trying to come with Jeff legislation reports but trying to read them it's so it's almost impossible if you don't have a technical background and I don't have I'm a lawyer. I need someone to basically translate to me what are they saying. I mean, I would be happy to to think that I'm able to explain blockchain so simple I'm trying to explain to my mother for a year and I'm not so successful so I'm not sure are we able to do this in this conference. But basically it's a distributed ledger technologies which eliminate a single central unit that collects data data is collected on each of the ledger it's like an Excel file which each cell having piece the same piece of information. What can we do to regulate this thing better I mean, we have an example or the start of an example in Malta, which has become like a crypto heaven if you want. But before adopting that legislation, they consulted hedge fund managers lawyers business consultants and so on. And at some point I had a client who was interested in investing in a nice CEO. He was interested in Malta and he told me that for the first time in his life, he was able to read the law and understand something from it. Okay, he did not understand everything, but he was able to understand something. I think that's the key to be able to explain to ordinary men or ordinary people what are we talking about because we are always talking about blockchain and this complicated technology, but we're not thinking about the relevant stakeholder. Because in order for law to be implemented. It has to be understood by the normal person it, you cannot just say okay the tech, the tech people got it. So it's fine, we'll just go to them because, as we saw. In the social dilemma at some point in that documentary, it was said that the person who was being interviewed said that in Google he thinks that there may be free persons who really understand what they're doing from A to Z. And that's a problem. And that's a problem with law also because we're regulating so complex and so specialized that after a point nobody nobody gets the point. So, in order to have clear, clear laws from my perspective, put different people with different backgrounds in the same room, let them argue in a control matter. And after a few days you'll have a good law. And I don't know maybe you'll have a law that sounds very fancy or very good on paper but probably won't be very applicable to real life or to the ordinary people on the street. Yeah, thank you. It kind of goes, goes back to what we were saying about those those kind of social and human values until I'm making sure that they're part of the conversation to help with the legislation so thank you for that. So, if I can come to you just now, we know that the kind of the big cities, the big countries have better chance of implementing technologies, they've got the infrastructure. But could you tell us some experience about maybe about the more rural communities and how, how we can support the digital transformation there. So thank you very much for that question I realize I did not tell you where I'm from and what time of the day it is it's a 335, and I am based in South Africa apologies for that. So, it's a very interesting one and I think one is that has been a fulfilling experience in my career and I see team, because what it means is, we talk about the digital divide but we don't know how extremities. So in the communities that will rule out the rule out to the, the infrastructure to is where they still an excitement when maybe a learner switches on the Internet for the first time. And the first thing that they go to is to go to sourcing bursaries or going to maybe universities to apply for, you know, for terrestrial education. It's very fulfilling because you walk away from those with a set of fulfillment and achievement that you've actually changed the trajectory of someone's life. Forever you've exposed them to something that they will never be exposed to. So I think part of what I bring as an as a conversation to the table is exactly that that we cannot count on the old mechanism of transformation where we will wait now another 15 years before we introduce them to AI, before we introduce them to blockchain and all of those things because we're talking about inclusion. So inclusion is not going to take the form of what we said inclusion was it has not worked, we still have communities that are not included. I think that that's why I am an advocate of upfront involvement upfront engagement of communities and the technology may be the divide but the social IQ, the social IP is there for solving solutions. So it is a very important work that we're doing, but let's not make the mistake again of talking about social inclusion but we don't act it. Thank you very much. That's very, very interesting to hear about that again we do talk about inclusion and we tend to focus on certain areas but forget others exactly as you've just said. I love that I love that kind of fulfilling, you know, I'm really having that making that difference to these to these communities it's lovely. Cesar just coming to you next and are there governance models and principles to accelerate collaboration and trust would you say. Thank you Naomi. Yes, well definitely, we have been trying to understand have a better understanding of how this collaboration could be faster in the most possible efficient way. And in the in the Mexican ecosystem I'd like to refer to an idea that we have been implementing, we have to, we have been developing since last year, which is something that my colleagues and I see some familiar faces over here. No already about, because this is an idea that we have been pushing for since 2019. And this is called the observatory of digital technologies and public policy trends. This is, this is a project that will help us to understand what are the best practices regarding collaboration and technology implementation and development, technological development overall. And this is, this is an effort to understand what the best practices are. So, we would also tropicalize them and implement them in the Mexican ecosystem to create this this project we have been working with with the and the design, which we'll launch in 2019 as I said, start with thematic discussion tables that we had in May 2019 to get a better understanding of how this project would fit into the the already existing and, and, and, and, and you know that the several the wide array of partners out there, interesting technological development. So, we, we, we launch our questionnaires with with different actors to get an understanding and let's say what the talk, you know, regarding what I was saying about listening to them and hearing what they have to say in terms of their motivations under interest, etc. So, with those inputs we created the first draft of the models, namely the general aspects of the project, and also the operational aspects financial aspect and governance aspect as well. And we conduct around tables in December with 250 participants register over the course of three days. You know that the work of harmonizing the different inputs that we received from them was a very challenging task because we were receiving, you know, very specific feedback and guidance from let's say lawyers, as Marius was saying, and we were receiving a very, if not, I wouldn't say opposite you know very, very hard to put together, let's say guidance from from from technical people. So we were trying to sort everything out to make it to, you know, not end up with a Frankenstein but something that it actually works to promote this this collaboration. So that was that was a tough task, but in March we were able to have, you know, let's say the preliminary versions of the models, and we were submitted that to a public consultation in from March to July, which was extended because of the COVID pandemic. And the final models were finalized in September 2020. So I have to say that right now we are analyzing the next the course of implementation, and the course of action to be taken to actually, you know, keep the ball rolling regarding this project. So far, many different actors in the Mexican ecosystem, you know, very high level firms and companies have raised their hands, you know, say, I'm interested in this project, and I would like to stay, you know, stay abreast of the different best practices out there. So to implement this, we are pushing for the creation of working groups to analyze the most pressing issues like technology for COVID or 5G deployment, et cetera, et cetera. And these different groups are aim is for them to insert naturally in the observatory once it's up and running. So I'll leave it there and thanks for the for the spaces as well. Thank you. It's so interesting to hear how different countries are working on some of the problems. We're actually quite loving how we're all on the same page, even though we've obviously got very different and experiences of life. So thank you for that. Henry, I'm just going to come back over to you. I'm feeling for you of how late it is. I'm surprised you're still awake. So thank you for staying with us. So what good practice have you seen in Australia and the ecosystem there that is working towards building the trust with the stakeholders? Well, I mean, there are all sorts of practices going on, of course, in globally, as Caesar was just pointing out. And I mean, what is wonderful, I think, just generally is that there is now a lot of momentum behind the importance of community collaboration and innovation that's not, you know, just tech focused. It really is becoming sort of human, you know, very much a human focused sort of program and project. And, you know, as a result of that, they're, I mean, the one thing I'm most familiar with and what I think is great to see is that there are between 80 and 90 different public private initiatives right around the world, each of which have developed their own ethical frameworks and their own sort of code of ethics and visions for how they see, whether it be AI or IOT or just, you know, technology in general. And of course that those frameworks are specifying particular principles such as transparency around algorithmic design, privacy, safety and security for autonomous vehicles on the road. And so, you know, there's a huge amount of work going on at the moment with these frameworks, which I think, you know, a very positive sign that, you know, we are beginning to think ethically and we are beginning to build, you know, our sort of humanity into, you know, our technology and our ecosystems. But that's not to say that it's awfully problematic at the same time because, you know, one of the initial problems with so many of these initiatives is that there's quite a high degree of pluralism, you know, between these frameworks. So what's very interesting to look into and to investigate as I'm doing is the commonalities amongst these different frameworks and there's sort of an essential, there's an essential sort of humanity, you know, in a lot of them, whilst there's a diversity of different values and perspectives on how, you know, technology should be good. There's also, yeah, a lot of common ground as well, which I think is another reason to be very optimistic about the way that technology is evolving. But equally here in Australia, you know, we, the government released its own ethical framework, I think back in, back in June or July, as have done, you know, a lot of governments around the world have recently released their, you know, their own respective frameworks. So, so, yeah, you know, we are, we are doing sort of, you know, what a lot of other countries and a lot of other organizations, such as, you know, the Montreal Declaration for Responsible AI, and there's also the AI for People initiative in Europe and I mean there's a, yeah, again, a huge number of them. So, yeah, I think this is one of the most positive signs from my own perspective that, you know, we are moving in the right direction. But there's still a lot of work to be done. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with you on that one. So, thank you for that. It's really interesting to hear what's going on on the other side of the world. Just looking at the time. So, Julia, coming over to you now, thank you for, thanks for waiting. So we've also been talking about communities and stakeholders, just to help our audience maybe a little bit. Who would you say would kind of the most vital stakeholders that we want to be having in our, in our conversations. And from your experience, have you seen a common or recurring challenges when involving these stakeholders, or is it much kind of dependent on the conversation? Well, I speak from the perspective of a company that is a cybersecurity provider. What we have seen is that for sure the stakeholders involved even indirectly are the big tech companies, those that are really doing the technology. So for example, you want to, you want to have AI over satellite pictures. Well, at the end of the day, you will never be able to talk to a satellite, but you will go through Google Earth Engine. It doesn't matter like a Google is involved as a technology provider. And then there's the stakeholders having the data, for example, collecting the personal data like the government or like other companies like insurance or banks. It really depends on the use case in this. The other stakeholders are the other companies that are willing to really use this leverage, this data and leverage this technology to advance in a certain way innovation in a more inclusive way since we are talking about how to advance community. And at least in my perspective, there is the cybersecurity provider. So the person who is really the person or the stakeholder that is really in charge of connecting all these dots while taking responsibility for being compliant with certain regulations. And so in a way, there's also indirectly like for the big tech company, there's also the government. So this, and of course, like the challenge here is, as it was already said in the panel, I am dealing with the fact that I need to go through regulations and I don't really understand and I need somebody, some lawyers to help me, but on the other hand, they don't know anything about security, they don't know how AI is really, you know, set up. And so this is basically the difficulty to really provide a cohesive and clear solution for that. This is, yeah, at least in my experience, but it seems that it is the experience of everyone here in the background. Yeah, I think you're right. We just need to talk more, right? It's good to talk. Everyone just needs to talk. Actually, I think that this should like, I don't think this is just a matter of talking. This is really something that should start way earlier at university. I had no idea that with the status that I was doing, I would have needed to have some low, you know, to need to be able to speak that language. Same thing. Lawyers don't take it at university. They don't know what a digital signature is or a blockchain is. And I have a very good friend of mine who is a lawyer. And then in like a post doctoral master whatever in Brazil from Italy, which is my country of origin, she was, you know, given like a two hour introduction to technology. Do you think that with two hours technology, she is now able to help technology SMEs or startups or some? No, absolutely not. So yeah, we need to talk, but we need to be ready to talk. And we need to have the education that enables to have effective communication. Otherwise this is going nowhere. I love that. I love that. I definitely think the British school system definitely needs an update. I'll give you that. But yeah, the things that we're teaching the kids who are growing up in this digital age, surely they need to be learning different things to what generations before have. It's a really good point. Thank you. And we've got a couple of questions from the audience. So let's go first. I'll open this up to all of you. So question one. What is the biggest challenge you have encountered to get stakeholders to collaborate to build a healthy innovation. So that's what we talked as basically what we've been talking about is is getting people to talk but has anyone got a great example of how that's been difficult and how you've managed to overcome it or still haven't been able to overcome it. Let me give it a stab. I think it's a double S word in the same token of saying engage communities that you also find them to be also the greatest resistors at times of technology and of innovation purely from a perspective of fear of not understanding what is being introduced. I think what we've learned is that it needs to be a continuous engagement, because you are literally taking someone from a stage of not understanding the, maybe the foundational aspects and we've been privy to at least see how innovation has been involved evolving. So as much as we push for community engagement, we just need to know it doesn't come without pain and just, you know, continuous engagement and continuous articulation. Thank you. We have some, I don't know what you call it in other parts of the world, but we call it big egos and people are not necessarily willing to listen to other people's perspectives and it can really hold, it can really put a halt in things and they either either stops the innovation from happening or it delays it or that person has to get pushed out somehow which is not always great so yeah I hope everybody listening will kind of have a bit more open ideas, open ears to listen to. Anybody else want to stab at that one? I would like to share something that happened Naomi, if I may, when this round table from discussion tables that I referred to in my previous intervention happened, we had a very interesting experience with actors from the industry, because they would say, okay, no, you know, I cannot sit with them, I cannot speak with them, because you know we're competitors and we don't speak to each other. And I was like, well that's a problem to begin with, you know, the thing is that you are not collaborating with each other and you have to see yourselves as actors interested in development, interested in technology, not as competitors, but as innovation comes after this, you know, this is the foundation of technological development collaboration. So this is something that really launches into thinking that, you know, the project that I talked to you about would really make a difference in the ecosystem by actually sitting actors and aligning their interest and making them aware of the need to collaborate. And people that refused to talk to other people, I had a couple of companies I was supporting, they both claimed to have the only IP of the technology that they were using and two different companies. So yeah, that was a fun one to try and untangle. So come back to the question come in. Is the Mexico innovation observatory information available online. Yes, it will become available. We are currently working on the design of a platform, because we're thinking of different audiences. And the observatory is going to help regular citizens interested in technological development up to, let's say, technology developers academia research, etc. So this is going to be based on an internet available platform, and the model itself we we have thought since the beginning that it should be something that could be replicated in other countries as well. So we would be, I mean more than than than trying to provide findings from for the Mexican ecosystem to other actors abroad. We would like to think of a model that you know if it results in everything that we expected to resolve considering what we were seeing in terms of making progress for for the Mexican ecosystem regarding innovation and technological development. So we're very happy to discuss with discuss with other countries how to how to tropicalize the model for for their own use as well. There we go, cool to action. Thank you for that. I'm going to come to you for this question so apparently global innovation forum is crushing the internet because there's so many people wanting to collaborate. There is coming back was a little bit to do with maybe the the role infrastructure we were talking about and the accessibility but if we want to talk about cross cross country collaborations and more people getting involved in the conversation. And how can we, how much work do you know of that's going into solving the kind of the infrastructure problem that we, we haven't quite got the big enough or capable enough infrastructure yet to do maybe what we want to do. Okay, well for sure. The way I see it is that the cloud is the biggest enabler now of innovation in the sense that now people can afford to really have an IT infrastructure. So, what is crucial here to really, to really highlight is the fact that even in Europe we are far behind the US so the cloud is basically something that the US has invented and produced and I was talking to the city of a very big tech company in France, a couple of weeks ago and he too was on the opinion that we in Europe are really, really behind that so. And we are in Europe so that you know we have the internet is not that we got access. A couple of days ago and we could, you know, and roll to to university and we have 5G etc. I don't have an answer to to such a question actually. Yeah, so this is not a very, very optimistic thing but yeah like I, yeah, like it will be like really huge investments on a cloud infrastructure like again. The collaboration on on an infrastructure that people can share in a multi tendency matter. Because this will lower the cost because otherwise there's too much big of cost at the entry level and then the small players would just not cannot afford. So, at least for Europe like according to some expert we are far behind the US. But one thing that we could do at least on our side is to really encourage companies not to use a zero or AWS or Google cloud but to really try to go even like the Deutsche Telecom cloud or things like that in Germany for example to really. I'm not saying pouring money but to really make sure that our cloud because we have those clouds can provide the same features and services at the same cost of those that are placed in the US. That's a really good point. Thank you for that. So do some research guys on your on your on your service providers and we are running short on time. I've been told we can have an extra couple of minutes, which is great. So I think we'll just go through each of you just one more time and just say, you know, in a really short 20 seconds. So what would be your, I think, I think I probably already guess what the answers are going to be but what would be your kind of number one piece of advice and for those who are wanting to build the trust and collaboration within their own ecosystems. So I'm going to go to you, Julia, your top of my screen. So education, really education. Otherwise, either people like otherwise people don't understand it and if you lose people. You lose basically their trust already in introducing them to the technology so there's no way that you can build trust in the community if they don't trust the technology which is the means to do that. So to me it's education. Brilliant. Thank you. Yes. I would say constructive arguing, put people with different ideas in the same room, let them argue without hurting themselves. And I think you'll get good ideas. I'm not for an argument any day. Next. Sure, I'll say co-creation to give all actors the ability to engage, whether we're speaking about ethical aspects as Henry mentioned or cybersecurity, as you will refer to we need to ensure we're following a model that works. We need to ensure all the actors and that all of them have the right incentives to promote three things, their engagement in the process, the appropriation of the results and the commitment to the implementation. Thank you. Thank you very much. I think I'll probably will echo the same sentiments of my panel. It's encouraging to see that across the world we're talking more inclusion and the fostering of, you know, inclusion of communities. And I'll tell you there's a project that has worked phenomenally, which is based in South Africa where we've looked at the public sector but working and engaging with the communities for the last mile of the connectivity. And I think the adoption, you know, the support that we get is amazing. Thank you. Thank you. And last but not least, Henry. I will echo all of those and I will finish by saying we must be brave and we must be courageous with having these very tricky conversations they can be very challenging and they can be just just challenging for ourselves personally, try and understand our own values, but then of course, you know, collaborate with the whole world as we do now through technology and with technology so yeah we've just got to remain brave and courageous in the way we treat one another and be kind as well. A little positive, wonderful note to finish on. Thank you very much. So yeah, thank you all of you once again for your time. And so everybody that's watching, thank you for joining in and get involved in the conversation, your local ecosystems, and just, you know, let's keep flooding along. So I wish everybody a wonderful day or week ahead if your date already finished. And yes, enjoy the rest of the conference this week.