 So Michael, thank you very much for speaking to us. Yes. You're now no longer a member of parliament. It's a long, long time since you've been in this position out of parliament. That's right. It's the first time in my life I'll be out of parliament and no longer, I'm out of parliament and no longer would be referred to as a member of parliament. One of the things that I've seen recently are these cabinet papers that have now been released after 30 and 40 years from the 60s and 70s. One of the things, these Australian cabinet papers, one of the things that's very interesting is how pessimistic the Australians were about the future of part when you can eat. There was almost a relief that Australia was getting rid of this problem. How do you feel now about that sort of attitude? Well I think that, as I said, you know, it's a lack of understanding the indigenous people and their kind of thinking. I think the administration set up here for people to work closely with people and win them aside. I don't think they did a good job for us to understand each other, you know. And one thing I remember very well is that I was a school teacher. I taught with a lot of Australians in Brandy Secondary School, Utu Secondary School, and Tusbab Secondary School. I can speak the same English language they speak. I can work with them, talk to them. But when we get out of the classroom, I'm treated as a different person. But yet at the same time, we know each other very well. And I think that's one thing that the Australian mistake they made was when they were administering the place. They may have taught us we would be a bunch of people like what they did with the Africans. The administration, the others did to Africans. And the whole of Africa, same attitude. They created hatred between the indigenous people and themselves. Australian administration created that. It's whether them or people who came too early colonizing, because I remember going through a tobacco factory in Goroka, you know, Matusa, South African. He was running a tobacco factory employing kids 12 to 15 years of age. And how that man called Matusa mistreated them. I went through with the group of Australian journalists. You were not one of them at the time. I think Gus smiles once though. Yes. Gus and myself. Gus and myself. I said to Gus, look, don't worry about me. I'm okay. I'm talking to the boys here and they left me outside and they were invited by the South Africana. All Australian journalists were up drinking tea and on the balcony of the South Africana, Matusa. He later on owned the Yellow Beach Motel. But he wouldn't let you in. No. He wouldn't let me in because I was wearing my laplac and my sandal. But they're not good in his eyes, you know. That's how, you know. And this also created everywhere in Papua, Nighini. In the hotels in Kavya, exactly the same. I taught with three Australian teachers there. Even though I always reckoned myself, I'm a very nice man after all. I don't have any hatred in me. And I thought, you know, they treat me the same. We would work together. Only one Australian, I remember very well. Alan Cooper, a good friend of mine. He was teaching in upper classes, grade nine. And I was teaching in grades seven and eight. So we were very good friends, you know. We'd go out and drink together, do everything together. You know, drinking was forbidden. But I'd go to his house and he'd say, have a cup of coffee and have a glass of beer before you go. And we were very good mates. And there are some Australians like that, you know. They were, I would reckon that there are journalists and teachers and medical officers. They try to understand people more, better, you know. And I think that was one of the problems they created themselves, not friend to the natives. And, you know, in Ella Beach, special branch people will come and get me and Numbri from administrative staff college down there to give us more information on how it's happening. And of course, we were already politically, I was already politically, you know. And I said to special branch people, yeah, come and give me information, don't worry. I know all the information. I was giving the bullshit and really information was in me. So that's the kind of thing, you know. Because that created a kind of, you know, dislike. Dislike for people, you see. So do you think Australia should be paying more attention to Papua New Guinea these days? These days, yes, Australia should be paying more. I would have thought that the independence, you know, we would have keep Australian teachers here in our schools. There was a very rapid localization, wasn't there? Lots of people went. Rapid localization and that's quite true, too. Rapid localization and trying to do things quickly. Well, in our part two, I was the main contributor because I wanted to see them go out. But I didn't look at education and health. And consider myself, I should have considered an area and keep Australians on the area, for example, you know. That period leading into self-government and independence was a very challenging one, wasn't it? You had Papua Basin, trying to break Papua away. You had Boganville troubles. You had trouble in the Matungan. Yes, it was. Looking back on it, are you a little surprised how well you managed to pull it all together and get P&J to independence? Yes, a good thing about New Britain was I knew about very well because my father spent 30 years as an Australian policeman. And I knew the Tholais when I grew up, you know. And that's the attachment I have about my father. And the same in New Island, too, because he was an instructor in the depot in Rabaul. He knew a lot of New Guinea Islanders like Palio. For example, Palio and I became members of House Assembly at the same time. Palio from Manus. Palio Mallart, yes, yes, yes. And a good thing about it is my father had a lot of influence in the New Guinea police force and Royal Constabulary later. And I think that's the thing that brought me about to go to know a lot of people in the islands. Sir Michael, I won't keep you much longer, but I'm interested now that you're no longer in the parliament. Do you have any views about the amount of money that is now going under these electoral development funds to individual members of parliament and whether it is being well spent or not? I don't think money is well spent. I can honestly tell you, I know that because I spend all the money. I have all my returns, never question all my returns. Everything I spend, you have to get the return to the ombudsman. They look at it, go to the finance. They have a look at it. Everything is on the line. People are not spending the money as they should spend, you know, but a lot of money been given out to our people, but the way they spend it, the way they draw money around is not the right way to do it. Do you think it's a mistake having so much money at the available for members of parliament? It's not a mistake. I think it's good to help members to be able to stay in one job for a long time. I was fortunate because I became the leader four times in the country. So I was able to maintain, I was able to maintain my contacts in the villages and inlets and islands and everywhere, everywhere. And I use radio all the time. Every time I go from parliament in Port Mosby, I broadcast to the two CIPIC provinces, broadcast to them, give them the details, everything we do as members of parliament. Or next year, next parliament is gonna sit, we have proposed legislations to bring. This legislation meaning affecting to this type of life that people want to live. So I was educating my electorate. My electorate, as I said, most, not respectable, respectable because of me, they respect me, but educated because I give them information all the time on everything that I do. So I'm well kept in the log book. So Michael, you're going to be very much missed. So thank you for talking to me. Thank you, much talking to you again.