 and they suffer in these gas chambers to death. And you're laughing because you think it's funny. How would you like to trade places with these animals, Gareth? I'm laughing at you. And it's now the time to really ban promotions on cheap meat. Well, folks, we're going to debate this now. I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Matthew Appleby, author of Super Organic Gardener, Vegan Garden, and farmer Gareth Wynne-Jones and animal rights activist, Joey Carpstrong. Gareth, how hard would you be hit if Joey... We're going to come to Joey in a second, but if Joey and his clan got their way, and actually your industry was redundant, you're done for? They're about 3% to 5% of the population, so I'm not worried about little Joey, to be honest with you. What we carry on is, you know, we get the support, the majority of the British public are behind this. And, you know, I was getting maybe four pound a kilo last two years ago. We're up to six and seven pound a kilo for land. You know, the demands out there, everybody's shouting for it because they know it's sustainable, it's really healthy for you. You know, it's full of top quality protein, nutrition, all the vitamins you want. So, you know, I'm not worried. One, I out about Joey and his little gang, to be honest with you. Joey, I'm going to let you come in now. Are you worried about the impact that encouraging the British people to get off meat would actually have on farmers and actually some of the poorest people in society that would have to potentially go for more expensive, vegan-friendly products? Listen, like, you're talking about banning the promotion of cheap meat. And this Gareth guy has got one of these small holding farms where, you know, it doesn't represent the majority of farming in the UK anyway. 85% of UK animals are factory farmed. Of the billion chickens that are slaughtered here every year in this country, 95% of them are factory farmed. And over the last 16 weeks, none of them have been let out because of bird flu. So, you're talking about factory farmed animals, predominantly. Over 90% of the pigs here are factory farmed. And they're killed in gas chambers, one of the cruelest ways to die. And no welfare, animal welfare organization denies that. So, Gareth represents, he called us three to five percent. Gareth actually represents a small percentage of what the meat, the meat that's actually eaten. And if you're worried about expensive, then this grass-fed, small holding, free range, unaccessible meat is one of the most expensive foods you can basically buy. And also, the cheapest foods in the supermarket, the riser, the beans, the oats, the lentils, are some of the cheapest, you know, some of the cheapest. And you're laughing there. Do you think gas chambers are funny, Gareth? Yeah, Gareth, I'll just let you come out in on that. Little Joey, just make me laugh, honestly. You've got no idea. You've got no idea. Look, I run... What did I say? That's false. OK, 4,000 U's. OK, we've got 300 at the cattle. It's a partnership. It's a business. It's not a factory farm. The majority of the animals in this country are outside meat. They're outside meat. No, they're not. The chickens... Where do the chickens live, mate? They haven't been outside for 16 weeks because of bird flu and 95% of them are factory farmed. These aren't even my stats. Look them up yourself. Over 800 megastyle U.S. farms in the U.K., over 800. So, you're telling me that all of these are out on grass. You're part of the problem, see? You're the one who's propagating these humane lies to the public. They go in the supermarket and they think it's all green grass and pastures. I investigate these farms. I do it all the time. I'm in there seeing the chickens dying on their faces. They go into gas chambers. You think it's funny? Pigs die in gas chambers. 86% of them. That's a death for a start. And they suffer in these gas chambers to death. And you're laughing because you think it's funny. How would you like to trade places with these animals, Gareth? I'm laughing at you. You have got the way. Yeah, I'm laughing at you. I'm laughing at you. You're sitting in your vegan world. You've got no idea how your food's produced. I bet you don't grow up. I'm an investigator. I'm an investigator. I investigate these farms all the time. We research these farms. You just talk over each other and no one's going to hear anything. No one's going to hear anything. I produce my vegetables on my plate than it does for my meat. One cow will feed many, many families for a long time. So, you get your facts, right? You're living in Cuckoo Land, mate. Right, guys. Matthew, I want to bring you in on what you've just heard there. Do you actually think that this country is quite unique in buying these forms of meat and farming that are actually of detriment to both the environment and indeed animals? Because we are painted as being a nation of animal lovers, aren't we? Well, I mean, I'm kind of moderate. I'm kind of in between there. You know, I think some people will always eat meat. And I don't think, you know, I wouldn't say ban anything. But at the same time, there's an environmental cost. Animals don't want to die. And as Joey says, chickens are stuck in battery farms. That's cruel. I mean, that's full stop. You know, you can't argue that that's not cruel. Well, I know I would totally agree with that. No sentiments as well. That's why I think there would be broad agreement. But what I will say is on the actual question that was posed there at the very start of this discussion, I actually worry that ban and promotional offers on meat does mean that people are going to really struggle. Because as you say, Matthew, people are not just going to stop eating meat. Are they? I'm certainly not. Well, I mean, the cheap protein comes from chicken. But, you know, the studies I mentioned earlier on say that, you know, not eating meat is cheaper than eating meat. No matter what level of society you're at, it's an education thing. The government needs to educate people how to cook and join the pandemic. People learn how to cook. They didn't go out. They didn't, you know, eat their steak in the restaurant. You know, during the war, people lived healthier because they didn't get much meat. They didn't get much sugar. They had a government controlled diet. I'm not saying I have a government controlled diet, but people need, because people should have a choice. But at the same time, because people get to, they get to eat the big cost on the NHS. Yes, that's the... The animals deserve a choice. The animals deserve a choice not to go into a slaughterhouse to have their head cut off for a sandwich. That is disgusting. And we're talking about 2022. We're still cutting off little lamb's heads for a steak or a lamb chop. Like, what is this? This is not civil. Well, opposed to what I thought, Joey, what are we supposed to eat instead? What would you like us to actually get our protein from? Well, very good question, mate. I appreciate that. I've been vegan nearly 10 years, and I eat whole grains, beans, legumes, fruits and vegetables, local fruits and vegetables. You know, there's no problem getting all of the nutrients you need. You can supplement B12. You don't have to stab a lamb in the throat to get B12 out of their blood. And you can live perfectly healthy without having a billion chickens in factory farms and slaughterhouses all over the country. Right, okay. You've said that. Yes, yes, yes. I've heard about the chickens. Why should we actually ban cheap meat? This looks an absolute joke. He's got no idea, you know, where his food's coming from. How many creatures are dying for him to be fed? You know, I know because I'm a farmer. I'm in that field. You know, I see what dies for me to produce my salads for my tomatoes. You know, everything is going to cost. Everything will have a death toll on it. And Joey sits there as the perfect, you know, person that thinks that he's saving, you know, in Manchester buying his local produce. I bet he's never grown anything. I bet he's never put his hands in the soil. He hasn't got any understanding. It's beside the point. It's beside the point. The animals that people eat, eat plants. And those plants have a death toll to them too. I've had a high artificial fertilizer, which has doubled, okay? So we've gone from 240 pound per tonne to over a thousand pound per tonne. Half the food in the world is produced by an artificial fertilizer. We need our livestock. We need our manure more than ever to go forward, to grow our vegetables, to grow our salads, to grow our crops. He doesn't understand this. He has to listen to the people that work in the land and that are feeding him every single day. Because that's what farmers are doing. We're feeding you, Joey. You're killing animals against their will. Joey, please. Last word to you. Well, in Manchester here, there's a gas chamber that kills pigs and they scream. You can hear them screaming. It's aversive to them. I don't know how you justify that by saying, oh, we need their manure. Just because you need manure for the ground doesn't mean you need to murder all those animals in slaughterhouses. I mean, you just like to avoid the slaughterhouse. And a lot of people do. People like Gareth, they propagate humane lives to the public and they get sold this cheap meat. Factory farming is disgusting in this country, just like any other country. And I'm an investigator. I see it all the time. And I see all these false advertisements and people just got to wake up. Right. Oh, Joey Carpstra and Gareth Wynne and Jones and Matthew Appleby. Thank you very much for your time. And now, folks, I don't know about you, but I am not living the life of a hamster. Next, we'll be crossing over live to a protest against the cost of living crisis in Cambridge.