 Hi and welcome to the Socialist.net video blog and we're joined here today by Alan Woods, Marxist author and editor of Marxist.com, the in-defence of Marxism website. Alan's going to be talking to us today about the situation in Ukraine. So Alan, just to begin with, we saw on Sunday 11th of May the referendums taking place in the eastern region of Ukraine. Can you begin by explaining the significance of these referendums? Well, I think it is a very significant and possibly quite a dangerous development. And what it shows is that the people of the eastern regions, which are mainly Russian speaking part of Ukraine, are not prepared to be bullied and oppressed by a reactionary government which has seized power in Kiev and of course backed by the so-called democracies of Europe and the USA who are trying to intervene for their own reasons in the Ukraine. I must say that the people in the eastern Ukraine behave quite courageously. They've risen up in effect what you have here is an insurrection involving by the way a sizable section of the working class, the industrial workers, the workers in heavy industry and in the mines which are concentrated in the east, which happen to be Russian speaking, but I don't think that's the main issue, who feel quite rightly threatened by this government, backed by fascist elements, by Nazi elements in Kiev. And they've taken a stand. Now they've been put, I'm firmly convinced that most of these people up until recently would not have been in favour separation or leaving the Ukraine or joining Russia. Perhaps they're still not in favour of that. But what they're not prepared to accept is domination by fascist gangs and a reactionary ultra nationalist Ukrainian group in Kiev. The result of the referendum is quite clear by the way, despite all the attempts to play it down. They claim 89 or 96 percent if I'm not mistaken, which I believe is correct. I think even western hostile observers can't really deny that this is the case, that there's overwhelming support now for this in the east. Well, you mentioned some of the doubts that are being cast on the referendum results by the media in the west, talking about irregularities in terms of events going on at the polling stations. Do you think it's really possible to have a proper referendum in these kind of conditions that we're seeing? Well, that's an interesting question. Now, isn't it strange? Isn't it peculiar that Washington and the European Union, who supported dictatorships figures in South America, the Middle East as well, but whenever there's a government which doesn't suit them or a movement that doesn't suit them, then they're looking with a magnifying glass to see whether there's any democratic irregularities. Well, first of all, what you have in the eastern Ukraine is an insurrection. It's a popular mass insurrection of the people fighting for their rights. In the course of a revolution, we hardly expect to have 101 percent impeccable electoral machine that these are available. The referendum clearly had a somewhat improvised character. One would accept certain irregularities. And of course, they play these up that there's not enough polling stations. The BBC claims they saw some woman voting twice or something. I don't know whether that's right or it's wrong. But even the BBC, for all its bias, and it's terribly biased, and I would say quite malicious, the coverage of this movement, because it is a revolution of the working class in the east of the Ukraine, despite that none of them have ever cast any doubt on the fact, which you can see even in the BBC's own coverage, that this overwhelming popular support for this referendum and for, unfortunately, because I'm not in favour of the division into Ukraine, but they brought this by the interference of the west and the reactionaries. They brought about a situation where now there's overwhelming support for separation. So therefore, as far as the legitimacy is concerned, well, it's as legitimate as any vote that you could have. As far as whether it's possible to have a referendum of any or an election of any sort where violence is taking place in the east of the Ukraine, well, how can they justify holding presidents or elections in the Ukraine when there's violence taking place all the way, which is not reported, by the way, systematic organised violence of terrorists and fascist groups against the working class, the trade unions, like the other day in Odessa, where they burned people alive, these fascist elements. They burned people alive in the trade union headquarters. They constantly attacking, killing, beating up communists and trade unions and so on. That's never reported, of course. But of course, that's okay. You can have a president of the election under those circumstances where you can't have a referendum. It seems where the working class is in control, which is in the case of the eastern Ukraine. So what role do you think Russia and Putin are playing in all of this? What are the interests that the Moscow government has? Well, if there are any Ukrainians watching this program, I would say my advice would be, do not trust any government, either in Kiev or in Moscow or in the European common market or anything else. Trust only in your own strength and control your leaders. That would be the advice I would give. Putin, of course, let's be clear about this. Vladimir Putin does not represent the working class. He does not represent the working class either of Russia or of the eastern Ukraine or anywhere else. He represents the gang of oligarchs, of capitalist oligarchs, of super rich billionaires, of which it seems most of them seem to be living in London, according to what they say, who seized power as a result of a capitalist counter-revolution in Russia. Now, we must do a sight of that. And what Putin is after is exclusively the interests, not of Russia, not of the Russian people, but the interests of the Russian oligarchy, as opposed to the Ukrainian oligarchy, which is trying to exert its influence in Kiev. And, of course, he's also interested in standing in to America and the West, who played the worst role. Let's be clear about that. The main villain of the piece here, the people who started this business, who were hell-bent on destabilizing the Ukraine in order to draw it away from Russia, is not Putin, but, of course, it's the West. It's Washington, it's London, it's Paris, it's Berlin. They started this nonsense. The Russians, in a sense, in that sense, were acting in a sense out of self-defense, if you like. I mean, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the USA has consistently tried to increase its sphere of influence and tear away all the extra publics of the Soviet Union. Away from Russia. And what the Russians are saying, in effect, is so far and no further years of the line. We're not prepared to take any more of this. And therefore, the West's calculations, the calculations of Western imperialism, have come badly and stuck. And now they don't know what to do. They make a lot of fuss, make a lot of noise, make a lot of empty threats. But in practice, it is Putin and the Russians that really decide. However, a warning must be issued here. I said, but Putin is not really interested in the interests of the workers of the East in Ukraine, or the Crimea, or anywhere else. The fact of the matter is that he advised them to drop this referendum, or at least postpone it, not to hold it. Which they refuse to accept, by the way. Which shows that when the West says, oh, this movement in the East is purely organized by Putin, it's organized from the Kremlin, it's led by the, it's completely false. No, this is an autonomous movement, a genuine mass movement of the workers of the East in Ukraine against fascism and against reaction in defence of their own interests. Therefore, they said to Putin, look, you're not on. We're holding this referendum anyway. What he does now, I don't know. What I do know is whatever Putin does will not be dictated by the interests of the working class in the East in Ukraine or anywhere else. You mentioned briefly the role of the U.S. and European Union. What do you think the interests of the Western imperialists in this whole situation? Well, they're responsible, actually. That's always covered up in the Western media. It's just Putin, Putin, Putin, Russia, Russia, it's not, that's false. Russia was quite happy to leave things as they were, but it is the West that acted, particularly in the first ages. It was the European Union and the greed and the ambition of Frau Merkel to expand the sphere of influence into the Ukraine. Of course, that was trending on Russia's tools. They organized this coup d'etat, that's what it was in Kiev. Using, by the way, and basing themselves on fascists and Nazis and people that collaborated actively, the Bandura people, who collaborated with the Nazis and the Germans in all kinds of atrocities in the First World War. On the Mayden Square, they were carrying banners with this. People in the West wouldn't know that because it was suppressed. It was supposed to be a democratic movement. In fact, it was no such thing. Now, of course, the regime that they had before, Yanukovych's regime, obviously didn't represent the interest of the Ukrainian people. It was corrupt as hell, gangsters and so on. Yes, but there's gangsters on both sides. There's absolutely nothing to choose between Yanukovych and the other crowd. If anything, the other crowd is even worse, continuing all kinds of fascist and reactionary elements, backed enthusiastically by the so-called Democrats in Washington and Berlin and London. Yes, but there's a slight problem here. The Americans, of course, then piled it naturally. They always wanted to detach the Ukraine from Russia, same as they tried to detach Georgia from Russia. They burned their fingers in Georgia, and I think they've burned their fingers even worse, more badly in the Ukraine. Yes, but there's a problem here now. The Americans are quite a long way from the scene of action. The Europeans are uncomfortably close to the scene of action. America and Germany in particular and the whole of Europe were particularly Britain a bit less so. But most of Europe, certainly Germany in particular, depends heavily on Russian gas. And America realized a little bit late in the day. Putin can always turn the tap off. That's why all the talk about sanctions, this and sanctions, and we will take measures, it's in my opinion, it's a lot of hot air. Because if they do that, they could damage the Russian economy. That's perfectly true. But Putin could also damage them. And the Ukraine, which again is entirely dependent on Russia for gas and oil and all kinds of things. So in the end, if there's a severe clash, and it's possible that they could go down that road, it would have very serious, not just serious political consequences, but very serious economic consequences, not just for Russia as the threatening and so on, but for the West. The whole world economy would be badly hit. And finally, Alan, the Ukrainian government in Kiev has said that they're not going to accept the results of this referendum. What do you think is the perspective for the referendums and the situation in Ukraine in general? Well, the Kiev government says it doesn't accept the referendum. What's it going to do? They've sent soldiers, they've sent the army, they've sent these gangsters, the fascists, actually, of the National Guard to intimidate the public, and it didn't work. On the contrary, it's infuriated and hardened the mood of the people in the East. And if they're not very careful, this could lead to very serious consequences. If the Kiev government makes a serious attempt to retake the Eastern provinces by military force, then it's civil war. And that's quite likely would lead to a Russian intervention, although Putin clearly doesn't want to intervene. He doesn't want to, he's got 40,000 troops on the frontier, but they haven't moved yet. If, however, there's serious atrocities and a lot of people are killed, then he'll have no alternative. And of course, they will just brush the Ukrainian army to one side. No, I think it's more likely that there will be some, there's already an attempt to open negotiations now. They've suddenly discovered the virtue of dialogue and peaceful negotiations, only because they failed in the attempt to settle things by military force. I note that the German foreign minister is getting on a plane for Kiev right now. He wants to open up negotiations, and the Russians have said, well, you can have negotiations, but we are demanding the participation of the people of the East, the rebels, which of course the Kiev government doesn't want to accept that. I think, however, they might have their arms twisted by the Europeans in particular, who are probably now quite alarmed at the prospect. They're right to be alarmed, because if this situation is allowed to spiral out of control, you can have a similar situation to what you had in Yugoslavia, you know? I mean, there are fascists now on both sides, by the way. The movement in the East is a magnificent movement of the working class, as a matter of fact. It's a revolutionary, popular movement, which the West is trying to distort and tell all kinds of lies. Yes, but if it becomes a military conflict, unfortunately, there are very undesirable elements also mixed up with the movement on the East. Russian fascists, monarchists, people who parade with the Tsarist flags, Cossacks and so on. And therefore, the result would be very, very unpleasant. You could have, it couldn't be achieved, the separation of the country couldn't be achieved peacefully. It would mean civil war, in which the working class would be divided, not on, on healthy lives, they'd be divided on national lines or linguistic lines and so on, with all the slaughters and massacres and so on, with the ethnic cleansing, which we've seen before in Yugoslavia. Now this, of course, would be a disaster for workers everywhere, not just in Ukraine. You'd have to have an exchange of populations, a flood of refugees, a lot of them would spill into Europe and so on. You could have terrorist acts. And the kind of bitterness which would be engendered, the fury that would be engendered, could last for generations. You see, nationalism is poison. I'll make that clear, because too many people are playing around with nationalism now. Nationalism is poison. We stand for the unity of the working class, the sacred, as Lenin did, for the sacred unity of the working class, above all lines of language, religion, colour, ethnicity, religion, all these questions. We stand for the agenda, we stand for the unity of the working class and we oppose anything that would threaten and to divide the workers on national lines. You mustn't play with the national question. And once it gets out of control, well, all kinds of horrors will ensue. Now, having said that, I believe that the Kiev gang, the Kiev government, has been defeated. I believe that the West has been defeated in their attempt to grab the Ukraine. They've been defeated. There's no way they can achieve that. And if there is negotiations, and that seems quite likely now, the only winner will be Putin and the Russians. There's no question about that. They will impose a federal solution, you know, that the Ukraine can be independent, OK, it can be independent, but it must be divided up into different autonomous groups to defend the interests of the Russian-speaking population in the East and so on. That would mean a weak government in Kiev under the control of the Russians. And the West might, they might not like this, but they might have to love it. That's perhaps the best option they can hope for. That is one possibility. The other possibility is not very nice. That would be a very sanguinary solution, which would have to have very negative consequences on the world scale. Of course, our task is a difficult one in this madness, or defending a class point of view, or defending the unity of the working class. I mean, it is criminal when you think about it. The Ukrainian workers, the Russian workers have always been united. They've always been brothers and sisters. They speak a similar language, they've got common history, common culture, common religion, for centuries, perhaps for thousands of years. And therefore, we stand for class unity, but it must be on a class basis, on the basis of struggling against the corrupt oligarchs, the capitalist, against capitalism, for an independent, sovereign, united, socialist Ukraine. That's the only real solution for the people of the Ukraine, the workers and the peasants and other people of the Ukraine. It would be a socialist, a Leninist solution. We have to fight for that. Of course, it's under difficult conditions now, because of this nationalist madness, which we oppose. But ultimately, that's the only solution. And eventually, you see that in Yugoslavia now, in Bosnia and other places, workers and communists and young people begin to understand that the real solution for the problems of working people, it might be on a federal basis, if you like. You give autonomy to the people in Eastern Ukraine. That'll be fair enough. And the Crimea and Russia, if it comes to that. But on a socialist basis, on a democratic socialist basis, on the lines of Leninism, on the lines of Bolshevism, on the lines of the October Revolution, that is the only real solution for the people, not just of the Ukraine and Russia, but all the peoples of the ex-Soviet Republics. Thank you very much, Ellen. Thanks for joining us today. My pleasure.