 Playing with your food That's the mark of a maker the KitchenAid stand mixer and attachments And welcome everybody to this British Library food season event with Alice Waters in Conversation with Anna Jones. I can't even believe I'm saying Alice Waters part of the food season for the British Library I'm so thrilled My name is Polly Russell and I'm the founder and the curator of the food season now in its fifth year at the British Library Very generously sponsored by KitchenAid The food season for those of you who've never joined any of our events We do online and at the British Library and we explore all aspects of food talks tastings We will go there if it's to do with food because of course food is the very best subject in the world as you all know Because you've tuned in today. So just to say that so far We've had in the food season. We've done food in prisons. We've done African food diaspora and we've explored endangered foods from around the world and Still to come after this event or a whole host of things events another nine or ten to run Including just to draw your attention to on the 18th of May. So that's next Tuesday or Wednesday we've got the biographer of Eliza Acton and Mrs. Beaton, Annabelle Abbs and Catherine Hughes In conversation about those two 19th century cookery writers And I suppose finally deciding putting them head-to-head to decide finally which one is triumphant perhaps On the 27th of May, we've got the last event of the food season, which is really exciting Angela Hartnett the chef and cook and television Personality in conversation with it's a mars shula bitch. So please do think about joining us for those But for tonight's event Anna Jones is going to be in conversation with Alice waters They'll be talking for about 45 50 minutes and then there'll be plenty of time for audience questions So please do send your questions in on the button at the bottom of your screens Anna Jones is the most fantastic cook and writer and the best-selling author of cookery books Including a modern way to cook and the modern cooks year which won the observer food monthly award Her most recent book I'm going to say the whole title because I think it tells you all about it But it is a mouthful one pot pan planet a green a way to cook for your family was published last year in March To critical acclaim and is Fantastic she believes in the power of food and food and pleasure to affect change in everyday life And so she is the perfect person to be in conversation with Alice who has through the pleasure of food transformed so many lives So over to you Anna Hello everyone, it is just such a pleasure to be here this evening with you all and with you Alice Yeah, what what an honor and what a pleasure to be able to chat to you for you know the next hour or so so Yeah, just absolutely thrilled Thrilled to be here and thrilled to be part of the food season So Alice really needs very little introduction But just in case just in case You are not quite caught up with absolutely everything Alice has done she is of course the founder of Shea Paneese restaurant which was founded in 1971 Which has been you know a sort of pivotal restaurant in changing the face of food in America but also across the world She's been a champion of local sustainable agriculture for over four decades in 1995 she founded the edible school project schoolyard project We'll be talking a bit more about that She's even been awarded the National Humanities Medal by President Obama and is the author of countless brilliant books so Alice welcome it is so nice so nice to have you here Thank you and to like it Oh so Alice I thought we'd start at the beginning Can you tell me you know where you grew up what you ate what food meant to you growing up Then I grew up in New Jersey and I grew up right after the war So my parents had this wonderful victory garden that they planted during the war and it was really important to them because they had four children to feed And they really didn't have much money but they had a big piece of land behind the house and so I had that experience as a very young child of being in the garden and I'm sure it has had a big influence on me but I was part of this family of six Four girls Four girls four years And did you know was the growing sounds like it was you know obviously a big part of your life but where did the cooking come in did did did you pick up cooking from one of your parents or did it come did it kind of come later on It definitely didn't come from my parents Also, my mother was very interested in our health. She had never learned to cook when she was young. She didn't know anything about it. All of a sudden she was the cook for A family of six and she had to make food for the table. My father would help on the weekends and make pancakes, but she cared about whether we were eating nutritious food and at that time, you know, they were talking about vitamins and whole wheat bread. But that was pretty much it and it was thought very good to eat as much bacon as possible. Everything's was to bacon sandwich and made that brown bread tastes pretty good. But I was a very picky eater. And had a hard time finishing my meals, but we had to eat everything on the plate because we were reminded that there were people who were People around the world that didn't have enough food. And so we had to sit there until it was all gone. And sometimes I was there a long time. But I did love the summer months. We ate only in season. If you can imagine the world back in 1950, no food was imported from any other country except tea, coffee, spices. Even in the United States, no food came from California to New Jersey. Maybe got an orange in Florida or a date from California. But we didn't eat any food outside of the season. So everything that's gone on in terms of food and the industrial food system happened in the mid 50s. But I feel so lucky that I ate seasonally because I longed for the tomatoes and corn in the summer and in New Jersey, those were amazing. And when you have to wait a little bit, you know, you appreciate it all the more. Absolutely. So maybe the cooking didn't come from your parents, but absolutely that appreciation of seasonal food and appreciating ingredients, you know, at their best seems like it has done and that's something that obviously you've carried forward with you, you know, and everything that you've done. But, you know, sort of particularly at Shepanese, you know, when you open Shepanese, I'm really interested to know, you know, what you wanted to create, you know, were you driven by the food, were you driven by the community, were you driven by the seasonality or all of those things, I guess. Well, you have to know that, first of all, I was in Berkeley during the free speech movement. And that empowered us all. We felt like we addressed free speech, the war in Vietnam, we felt like we really made an impression around civil rights. And so that, that feeling of empowerment was just part of living in Berkeley in the 60s. And then I went to France in 1965. And that was the real awakening. I felt like I had never eaten before. I had a bad gut and I was never wanting to, to, you know, get something that wasn't just baked. And I was willing to stand in line to get that. And it's something that I had never experienced before. The idea of just waiting patiently for your food, even talking with people in line or sitting in a restaurant. And that would be the whole experience for the evening that you'd eat together. But France, that was before France was industrialized like the rest of the world. And it was a real slow food nation. I don't think, even in Paris, that they had olive oil from the south of France. They were butter people. Absolutely. And everything was, you know, organic and in the farmers markets. And when I got back from France that year, I want to live like the French. I want that beauty in my life. I want, I just brought some flowers. I want flowers on the table. I've got some as well. Some slightly, some slightly over open tulips. But it was that whole idea of looking at the menu that was posted up front, seeing the dishes my French friends would say, oh no, they couldn't have oysters today. Because they come to Paris tomorrow. We're not going there. It was all of this discernment around eating that just opened up my senses in every way. All of my senses. And of course, those are our pathways into our minds. And we need to be smelling and tasting and listening carefully and looking carefully, touching, because that's the way that we get information. I learned all about that when I came to London in 1968, if you can imagine, I was in London in that year. I have to say, I had a journalist friend who asked me if I wanted to come with him to interview John Lennon for Rolling Stone. Oh my goodness. So intimidated to go. That's one of the regrets of my life. Oh my goodness, you didn't go. I didn't go. I can understand that that's an intimidating that's an intimidating ask. But I studied in Hampstead, and I went to the Montessori training course for international. The course for international training. And I really learned something very important there. It made us go out into Hampstead. And pick leaves of various trees. And we came back and we had to trace the leaves on paper. And then we have to calligraph the name of the tree. And so I'm still to this day. I love all of the trees in Hampstead. But it's that it's that it's learning by chewing. And your senses that you remember. And it's the other that attention. Yeah. I know it was two things that time in France. And time in England really opened me up for, for the, for the restaurant for the restaurant. Well, I went to the restaurant. And as a young chef probably 24 years ago was in San Francisco visiting an aunt who lived there and I begged and begged and begged and begged by mom and dad to take me over to Berkeley from from the other side of town to eat there and the meal had an enormous impact on me actually and I think I can't actually remember all of the courses but what I do remember is that there was a peach on the dessert menu just a peach on its own. And I think that had, along with the fact that it was a restaurant run by a woman and a kitchen filled with, with, with many women that I could see that and the peach had a big, big impact on me. And there's such a confidence to that I've not seen it anywhere else where, where does that confidence come from to serve a peach for dessert. There was a group of home cooks, we were not professional chefs. And so we did everything. The way that we did it at home. My here Nancy share who made her beautiful desserts that she had never worked in a restaurant, at least I had waited on tables for the semester during school and I knew a little bit about work in a restaurant but Nancy had no experience at all. And she just would make the tarts one by one. And we, we did, we were looking for, you know, ingredients always from the very beginning that tasted like those that I had eaten in France. And that pushed us to the doorsteps of the local organic farmers and ranchers and fishing. And so that was the beginning of our sort of support of the local people. And that is the only way we discovered pretty quickly to eat right food. If it's just pick locally. And of course it's grown in that beautiful way. And then we take that to the restaurant. And then you hardly have to do anything to it. I mean, it's the teachers from Mars, Mars, a motor, I'm sure you can. Because he, he grew all these different varieties. And he during the course of the season, one group of peach trees with a bright pan, and we get them and then the next one and the next one and the next one. We like to sell to us because we paid the real cost of food. So there was no middle man. And they're taking the money. And so he would bring them to us or we would take, you know, go and pick them up from his farm down in Fresno. But those are the relationships that we develop pretty early on. And, and, you know, I remember at the restaurant seeing the names of the growers on your menu and I think that was one of the first times I'd ever, you know, ever noticed, you know, the name of a farmer the name of a grower on the menu and yeah, it was just a lovely, it was a lovely thing to see that that sort of humanization of, of, of food of, you know, that connection. And shape and ease as well has been an incredible starting point for, you know, lots of chefs who've gone on to do incredible things and in their own rights sort of change, you know, their area of the world of food, you know, from some in Nostrat to Clare Patak to Dan Barber. And, you know, there's very few places that can sort of, you know, say that so many wonderful, wonderful chefs who've made wonderful changes have been through their kitchens and so I just wonder, you know, what, what sort of magic has woven into that kitchen? Well, I think the real magic is connecting to these producers who really have brought the values in through the kitchen door. And I'm not just the only one who has the luck to know the farmer, but everybody in the restaurant has an opportunity to meet those farmers and ranchers and to go out and to visit. And I think that's been a big part of their edible education is knowing that we're only as good as the ingredients that we use and want to cook simply. But the other part is that I was always insecure about cooking because I never cook professionally and I counted on different chefs who came in the kitchen from France or from some other place who had more experience. And all collaborate and talk about it. And I've learned so much from them. And it wasn't, it was never run sort of chef at the top, and the co-me said the bottom. It was always everybody had an opportunity to sort of weigh in on the taste of something, even the waiters, because they always loved that or the customer didn't like that at all. I love that. And so let's move on to one of your other, you know, huge and wonderful projects, the edible school yard. So that was set up in 1995. So it's been going 20, 25 longer years now. 27. 27, 27. I should be a bit better at maths. Tell us about how it started and then maybe, you know, 25 years on you seem to have a very clear pledge in what you want it to do. So I just love to hear about how, how, you know, you've come to that. Well, first of all, remember I was a Montessori teacher. I taught three year olds and they were still adequate, seriously, but I believe deeply in education. That is the place where we, we all go or should go to school and where we can learn the values that we need to live on this planet together. And I knew that when my daughter was born, that choosing a school for her was going to be very important. And so I was looking around and I realized that the public school system in California was a number 47 in terms of academic achievement. And amongst all the states, I said, oh my goodness, I couldn't send her to a public school unless I was ready to go to school with her. And so I, I made some comment about this to somebody I was being interviewed by and the principal of a local school. Martin Luther King Middle School called me up at the restaurant and he said, I'd love for you to come down and help us beautify our school. Well, I had no idea. I had mentioned that it looked like it was neglected from the outside but I, I hadn't been in that school. Well, I went down and he told me that he had 1000 middle school students, six seventh and eighth graders who were. They came from homes that spoke 22 different languages. I didn't realize that this was going to be a good test case and I wasn't even sure what he was asking me to do. But I had the vision to end walking around the campus. It was built on 21 acres of land way back. No, it was 17 acres of land when it was for 500 kids. And they had portable buildings that were on vacant lots and lots of asphalt for playing games and all of that. And it was in great disrepair. And I just said, Oh, how wonderful. We could make a garden out on that vacant lot. And oh goodness that's a portable building. We can make a kitchen classroom, not to teach cooking or gardening per se. But to teach in that Montessori way by doing that you were learning maybe math or science in the garden. Maybe you were you were learning bot near music and out in the garden or art and in the kitchen classroom. You could be cooking the food of the Middle East, or you could and learning about the geography, or maybe you were, you know, studying Mexico, learning Spanish. You could be having a tortilla soup. I started in ordering talking to Neil Smith and I said, Oh, and we could build a cafeteria. And every student could sit down to eat. And maybe even school lunch could become an academic subject. You could have a placemat about the music you were listening to. So I had great plans. And after I sketched it all out for Neil. He said, Thanks so much Alice. I'll get back to you. I never thought he would. And he called me up six months later and said we're ready to go all the way. But please Alice, don't talk about a free organic school lunch. Or you're going to frighten people. Let's just begin with the kitchen and garden classrooms. And he gave us permission to engage all the teachers to do whatever we wanted to do. We decided we needed to develop a nonprofit so that we could pay for teachers to teach. He didn't. He said whatever you need to do. So we hired people that love children but weren't, you know, hadn't gone through teacher training. But they knew how to garden and they knew how. And they really changed the way that the classroom was run. And every part of it was sort of with Montessori principles in mind that the kitchen had to be beautiful. It had to be organized so that kids could tell where the dishes and glasses and everything were stored. They were all color coded. I was so intent on having, you know, mortars and pestles. All of the equipment that would really engage the kids. It looked like a charm. Same thing in the garden. We magical space. And the kids just felt like they were not in, you know, this rigid sitting at your table at your desk, listening to the teacher up in front was never like that. And we started to really hear from the parents and even all the teachers at the school when they brought their classes into the kitchen or the garden classroom. They enjoyed the experience themselves. And that all led to a kind of building of community that I never imagined would happen. And then people started to come and want to understand what we were doing. And we gave academies once a year so that they could learn and we start to build a network of edible educators. But I wanted to know, most of all, is this only because we're in Berkeley? Is that right? Where the sun shines and the peaches are ripe. So we decided to go to a big city to try it out. We started one in Los Angeles first because I knew a chef there, Suzanne Gohan, and she wanted to do it. Then we went to New Orleans because, again, France wanted to start when there was odd within the south. Then we moved on the East Coast to North Carolina and to Brooklyn and upstate New York. Well, I really had proof of concept almost immediately. They did them differently according to the cultures, but with the same ideas of organic stewardship and building of community and biodiversity and learning by doing education of the senses. And I just can't tell you how quickly that built. I had an idea this time it's come and now we have a network with 6500 schools. Oh my goodness. Around the world. Oh my goodness. Oh wow, that is a long list. I looked at the map actually on the website earlier and it was just. Look at that. And you've even got the peaches in the corner there. Absolutely. Yeah. A wonderful beautiful thing and something you must feel immensely proud of and immensely proud of the people who have. I have no idea because we really need this edible education in every school in the world and of schools could become the the economic stimulus for regenerative organic farming. We could address climate. We could address nutrition. And we could bring the values of those farmers into the schools. And it's something that could happen wherever we live. We used to do it. We used to do it. We used to be for the industrial school system. Yeah, took hold. We always connected to people that were around the schools. We didn't have big fences around every school and you didn't have to go in and register your name before you were allowed on the premises. And this could open us up again. The connection with people who feed us and the real honoring of the teachers who teach us. Absolutely. And this sort of school-supported agriculture movement where the farmers feed into the schools and vice versa. It's an incredible place to start and we're better to start than I guess in our schools. It's our schools because it's the place to reach everyone. We all go to school and we all eat. We've got two universals there. And I've just known because of the slow food movement which has been so strong around the world that people have always connected locally to the foods that were grown in a particular region. And they're always the best tasting, as I said. And we can share seeds, which I love. But again, you know, we have to learn about that. What did the Indigenous people who lived in this place before us, what did they grow? What did they eat? How can we really take care of the land? Yeah. And yeah, it feels that it's the great connector food and education. It's the two, as you say, the two things that connect us. And so this slow food movement has been something that has been, you know, important and that you've been sort of at the forefront of for many, many years now. So, you know, I wonder why, why is it, it feels more important than ever to me today, the slow food movement. And I wonder, yeah, what your thoughts are on that. Well, I heard Carla Petrini speak about 25, 30 years ago, and he spoke so eloquently in Italian. Of course, I did not understand. But I felt like I understood his metaphor for the arc of taste. Can you imagine that you would, you know, put on all of the endangered foods onto this symbolic arc. And you'd save them by growing them and eating them. That you would save them by supporting the people who took care of those, those particular products. I, I got very excited because I met so many people from around the world. When I went to the slow food gatherings in Italy and Turin, and they were amazing. I mean, the diversity of people and their ways of cooking and farming were utterly fascinating to me. And I don't think I, in all the travels that I've done that I ever would have met people and engaged with them in the way that I have during this whole period of slow food. It's been enriching in ways that, you know, I can't, like Vandana she either. Yeah, hard to put into words, I'm sure. And I guess, you know, this, you know, this slow food movement, obviously I'm on board with it. I'm sure everyone who has joined us and is joining us tonight is as well. But often I think, you know, the fast food industry would like us to believe that this good local fresh food, you know, is out of reach that this slow food is out of reach for most people and, you know, what do you think about that? Well, it's a lie. It's a lie. And I think we have been seriously indoctrinated through the technological world that we live in, to really not believe that there's any other way that we can't afford it. That we don't know how to cook it, that this is elitist, all of those messages that go out all of the time. Kids don't like it. We can't do that in schools. We don't have the equipment to do it. It's, it's all a lie. Because I've just written a book will probably come out next year, where I made school lunches and bought all the food retail organic. And I made school lunches that fit into the minuscule reimbursement that we get a government. And so I know it's possible. I mean, if we limit the amount of meat and cheese and use that as a condiment, but that's always been the case since the beginning of civilization. I mean, we don't need big sticks and all of that. But again, this has been very carefully choreographed by the industrial food system to get us to adjust by what they are selling. And in the past, people always were concerned about food first, clothes were weighed down, but food was number one. Oh, it's that, that we, that's where we spend our money on food, taking care of our children. So, to all of a sudden, not care about what we're feeding our kids have them seated at another table. They only like hamburgers and french fries or whatever, cokes and the rest, but it's addicting all of these foods and once kids start eating them, it's very hard to change. And it doesn't, you know, there's, it's an immoral, from my point of view. An immoral industry. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more there. And so, just quickly to mention to everyone here, we are Alice is going to be answering your questions. We're going to be moving to those in about five five minutes or so there's a question box that you should be able to see on your screens now so I'm sure lots of you have already popped a question in there. Then, yeah, please do an opportunity. So, yes, wonderful. And I guess some. Yeah, I think I think what's in the headlines here at the moment. Alice is all about this kind of cost of living it's all about the, you know, you know, the pressure that is on everyone's budgets on, you know, the reduction in sort of spending on food and I feel like over the couple of years of the pandemic I feel like we had this very rare moment where people were connecting with food more where people were connecting with, you know, the supply chain with the delicacy of the supply chain with the fact that a bag of flour or a box of eggs is actually quite miraculous life giving But you know my fear is that that has, you know, you know, pressure is put on through world politics and and lots of different different things. You know, we've sort of lost that ground we made up. And so, really, you know, I wonder, I wonder how you think we can we can communicate to people that this is achievable that this is affordable that this is, you know, that this is possible. We need models of it working. That's what we really need. And it's the reason that I'm very focused on the University of California, because it has tremendous buying power. The University were to purchase food locally and sustainably retentatively, it could change the economy of the whole state of California. And if we did this across the country. Wow. What we need to prove and it's something that can could happen anywhere but England is a great place because you have such a history of growing food, a love of gardens always have that I've gone to some of the great gardens in the world in England. And to choose a prestigious school. I mean, I just think of Cambridge because my daughter. I kept looking at the quad and saying, why are they growing food out here. Why couldn't they. And why couldn't we decide to buy food from the people who really are taking care of the land for the future, making bread. All the ingredients that we need could be made by small producers. It could put people in business to supply food for the school system. But we really need a model. And maybe it's a school in London. And that is open to these ideas or a school district that was big enough to make this work. Plan the menus figure out the seasonality of it all, figure out all the farmers that you could put in business. I mean, it's, it's, I've been researching and of course at cooking school and got so many great cooks that could teach very simple techniques. And, and I know the kids would love it. I've always wanted a cooking show where the students, the kids were the judges. It would be amazing. Yeah, there was. Yeah, that would be, that would be wonderful. I think you, you, you can't find a more honest audience than a bunch of five or six year olds. And eight year olds want to figure out, you know, but engaging everyone in the edible education of the courses like I described at King School are possible in every school. And maybe it just takes a burner with, you know, the boil water. At the very beginning of the edible school yard project, we would get boxes of vegetables from a farm. We became part of community supported agriculture. And we get a farm box and we would give it to all six of the classrooms and they would open the box in the class. And what this is, what's this and maybe some strawberries to taste or whatever, and then kids could take it home. And was again, a beginning of the whole idea of the education of the census. Well, there's a few fantastic projects happening here in the UK, which I'm sure you know about Alice, but if everyone, if everyone here, you know, is interested to find out about anything. There's a fantastic project called grow happening here in North London. There's a, there's a pilot school where they're growing and using sustainable agriculture. There's a brilliant organization called taste ed, which I'm is run by B Wilson where they're actually doing that in lessons with kids they're taking in foods and they're having that sense of education. And then of course the chefs in schools where they're taking, you know, chefs from restaurants into schools and yeah, and all I'm sure I'm deeply inspired by the work you've done Alice but it's it's nice to see some things. Some things happening over here and I was so bolstered to see when I looked on the map of schools for the edible school yard since some schools here in London as well. There are. Of course you had Jamie Oliver way back when you're saying what is this that we're serving our kids what is this awful stuff. And that that broke everybody up around but see was such a charismatic speaker about, but it's, it's so much. It's, it's something that can bring education alive. That's what I like most of it, we are teaching the academic subjects. We're teaching math and science and history. It's not, you're not losing anything. You're just gaining the attention, the deep saturation through the senses of that particular subject. And so, once the King School faculty understood that that the students were doing better on their test that then they embraced it all the way. They said, we all want this. And that was and the validation is really this network that it's not something at all that just comes from my passion and living in Berkeley and all that in fact that I'd love to eat but it's, it's really the what we're all longing for, the connection to nature. She's our mother. And she, she has been left out there. And we're in here on our screens. I can see the redwood train. I'm out here. So, yeah. Well, I think that's no weather I could have gotten through the pandemic. If I didn't go for a walk every day, you know, and see the gardens and the changes and edible landscape that is everywhere. You've got him steady he's he's got within an hour, beautiful parks. Yeah, and that's it. That that people after the war were given an allotment. Those allotments come back to life again that the people can grow their own food because our gangster gardener in Los Angeles, Ron Finley says, growing your own food is like printing your own money. I love that Alice. I love that. And I think that's, that's a wonderful place to maybe take some questions. I could, I could ask you questions and chat to you for many more hours. But there's lots and lots of lovely questions here from people. So let's start with Sarah Louise. She asks, what cookbook utensils and ingredient could you not live without a mortar and a pestle. I make my vinaigrette every day using mortar and pestle. And I guess that I love garlic too. I couldn't live without garlic. I couldn't live without olive oil, good olive oil and good vinegar. I couldn't live without lemons. I'm with you on that. And I'm, as I said before, I love her up tomatoes. There used to be, you know, red ones and that was it. And now we have 50 colors. Big, small, every color of the rainbow. It's so exciting to see the biodiversity of carrots. 10 colors, including purple, white. Purple were the original, apparently. That's what I've, that's, that's the rumor I've heard. Yeah, that they, they were bred to be orange by the Dutch royal family. Oh, I didn't. Apparently, apparently it's a fact. Yeah, we know that a lot happened in France during the Louis XIV, because he wanted ingredients available longer than just the growing season. So he was the one who understood about compost being put into the soil that allowed the vegetables to be all that they could be, and they got riper sooner. Who knew? I love these facts about food. Another question from Julie. She's asking, was there any one dish on the menu at Chez Panisse that you always had to have on for its popularity? I know the menu changed very frequently, but was the one thing that felt very important and very Chez Panisse? Salad. Yes. I mean, I grew the mesclant salad in my backyard for the first three years of the restaurant. You think for people to come over and pick it and all the rest, but I brought the seeds from France and I planted this mix of greens. It was something that was not seen at all at that time in this country. And people love the way it tasted and the colors and the mix of bitter and sweet, and we have always had a salad like that on the menu. You've done bacon, cheese and garden salad since day one of the cafe upstairs. It is one of the things that is always present. I mean, mind you, it looks different in a winter time, but it's a mix of greens. Yeah, I love that. I love that. So we've got a question from Ellen here. It's a bit of a long one. I'm going to read it out. This is a question about the language we use to talk about food, which sometimes can come across as representative of exclusive or highly privileged sectors of society. How can we communicate about food in an inclusive and democratic way that conveys the amazing range of sensations and food culture? That's a great and important question. And I think that we really, of course, need to teach it in school. And the school lunch is a great place because there's such a diversity of children. Those are the most affordable meals, those meals that have been in the culture of a particular country forever. I mean, to think that kids love kale, who would have guessed that. But we found that when, of course, kids grow it and they cook it, they all eat it. And that is thrilling, that the engagement and they're making it themselves. But we're not talking about expensive food. We're talking about beans and we're talking about brown rice and we're talking about different greens and cooking them with garlic. And they, it's almost as if we have a gene in all of us that comes from the Middle East, way back with cradle of civilization, because I find the kids love Indian food. They love North African food, all the Mediterranean climate that is incredibly desirable for, you know, just in terms of affordable ingredients and also health. We talk about the Mediterranean diet, but it is nutritious. It is amazing, isn't it? You know, you get the sort of pickiest kids and, you know, they're very happy to pile a load of hummus into their, you know, onto their carrot sticks or cucumbers. And actually, it's really quite a strong flavor. So if kids can eat hummus, then, you know, that was the most surprising thing of the Edelman's career, because we had all the spices on the side counter and kids could take them and spice the food they wanted. And they all wanted to use those spices, especially the hot pepper. Yeah, you don't know, we just have been denied the opportunity and it's schools that can bring this back. And the cooks everywhere can help schools learn how to cook. I've got another one here from Esme, Alice, and I think I might know your answer to this, but what does Alice think about the government's move here in the UK to make it mandatory to put calories on menus. I don't know if you knew that that was happening here in the UK, but it is. What do I think about that? I don't like the idea of that, but actually, at this moment in time, not a bad idea. Because most of the food that is fast food has the most calories. So let's know that. I don't know how much a hamburger has, and this is a hot dog and this is fried rice. Why not? As long as you have also some of the nutritious foods that people love and see how much, how many calories. Yeah, I see how much impact it has, I guess. And a question here about the London food scene. What do you think of the London food scene, Alice? Does it compare to Berkeley? Does it compare to the US? Do you have any favourites? I think there's something very unique, because although I know many, many of all the organic spots to eat in, in every country and every big city, I have rarely ever been in a city that had the diversity and devoted to organic. So I ate every night the last time I was in London at a different ethnic place, like Indian one night, Chinese the next. And I never, they were all devoted to organic and sustainable. All of them. I'm delighted that that has become, and they were the most well patronized places too. And it was, it was just great to know that I could get that kind of middle of your meal organic, because normally that people associate the food, for instance, a Mexican food as being cheaper. And so they want to go there. But to have a Mexican restaurant that is devoted to those values. And yes, it's a little bit more expensive, but not enormously so. Because they know how to cook with grains and vegetables. So it's so gratifying from my point of view. Yeah. Well, we're lucky. We're lucky. It's a rich, rich food, food city these days. And yeah, I think it would take it would take a lifetime to eat your way around London. So, yeah, and, and obviously all over the UK there's fantastic food things going on to not just London. So we've got a lovely question here from Rosie. Well, with perfect timing we're about to start weaning our baby boy, and I'm so keen to ingrain that slow foods, that slow food seasonality ethos into how we approach that. Do you have any tips for starting his food journey in a positive way and keeping that going as he gets older. Well, my daughter gave a testimonial in a book she wrote called Always Home. She wrote her growing up with me. I said her and there's great testimonial, because when she came out from school when she was very probably about five or six, and I would show peas and make her a bowl of warm peas with olive oil on it. She got home and she wrote about those peas in her book. And she said I know now how much my mom loved me, because I know how long it takes to shell peas. And I loved it that she appreciated that and I used to give her those little Tokyo turnips that were tiny and white. And I steamed them and again just with olive oil, a little bit of salt on them. And she just got to really, she ate a whole bunch in the afternoon. I never, you know, you had to say eat your vegetables at dinner time. She loves them. And I wanted to find always the food that she cared about. And so I would make a lunchbox which she makes great fun of in her book. And because it, you know, I, I wanted strawberries and orange juice and I put that in one container and I wanted it to stay cold. So I put in an ice pack at the bottom. And I, you know, put vinaigrette on the side and I made salad so that she could put the amount of vinaigrette she wanted on it. And I know kids like things separate. And it's very important to follow that. And again, I think the garden, my garden and any garden and any place in the park. It's so important for the kids to smell and get down there with the mint. Always liked mint. Love to mint tea, just pour water on mints and drink that. The kids at the edible schoolyards love that. But it's that it's, it's, it's bringing very beautiful things to the table too, when you're eating together. And she, when she ate a passion fruit one time, it's just kind of Well, it is a mind blowing flavor actually, isn't it? It's a full sensory experience. She had to really save her money to get those passion fruit. But then he found out that they grow wonderfully in Berkeley, who knew. And there's somebody up the hill who would trade dinner at the restaurant for a big basket of passion fruit. Oh, I love that. That is that you, you know, when you buy from people that live right around and we always ask neighbors, you know, to trade their French breakfast radishes for lunch in the cafe. But it's that that has has really given a kind of community life to the restaurant. And, and that's continued on through all the 50 years. We've got another couple of questions here which I just kind of relate to the restaurant actually. Did you, Alexia is wondering, did you teach yourself to cook before opening Chapernice? Or was it a sort of learning, learning while doing. Yeah, I, I love to to cook when I got back from France, I felt like I needed to know how to cook, because I couldn't find places to eat, except in fancy French restaurants in San Francisco. I got Elizabeth Davis books, and she went to France and had the same revelatory experience. And she wrote about that. And for me, she was the most important cook in my life. And I read all of her books, and they were so easy, the summer cooking, or, you know, French Provence all food, and I tried to, you know, she didn't give very many instructions, you know, just pour that on and toss it. And I had to look up in LaRuce Gastronomique. Well, what is she, and I learned to cook, and I cooked for a whole group of people that were writing a newspaper called the San Francisco Express Times. And they liked what I was doing. And they asked me and my friend David Goins, who was a calligrapher to do a recipe for the magazine and we called it Alice's Restaurant. I had to have a new recipe. And I was so afraid of my own that I would ask other people to give me recipes. And then I tried them out and serve them to my friends. And if they worked, they became part of Alice's Restaurant column. And so I knew that with my friends, that we could do something together, open a little restaurant, maybe, with just one menu. Yeah. Yeah. And what, what a restaurant that little restaurant has become, it must feel, feel quite crazy. But another question, perhaps our final one from Camilla. And this is going back to the school food. How is the best way to approach a school as a cook to change the way they teach about food? And can people access the Edible School Yard project and be part of it in every country? Yes, we have a network. And I should be able to give you the internet on this, of course. Edibleschoolyard.org. And any problems, just call me. I think the best way is to feed people an idea. So teachers are so underpaid and underappreciated in general, maybe not as much in England as they are in the United States, but to invite the principal of a school over to your house for dinner, or to a restaurant, or a number of people. And you're eating together. And again, you're bringing your flowers. Or if you're going to meet someplace, make it be in the botanical garden. Let's meet and talk. Because we're trying to change the way we think about food. And it's very hard to do that with words. So whenever I go anywhere, I bring, you know, a big basket of strawberries right now. That's what I would bring and offer them. And, you know, I send people packages. When spring, during the winter, cold time is back east, I send the most delicious quichu mandarins in a little box to people with a message about food. And everyone that I send it to writes me back. And they will not forget when I come back and talk about free school lunch, they'll remember. And I think it's the most effective way of engaging people in this world of beauty, because food is about beauty and the brightness of it is irresistible. And we, we need to feel it and see it and taste it. We need to touch it. Absolutely agreed. And I remember reading an anecdote about you wanting to give the president a peach for that very reason. Unfortunately came in August, and it was before the peaches, but it was the Gravenstein apples instead and I tried to give him an apple, but he said I want the blackberry ice cream. But it is very important that again, that we're so used to eating second rate tastes of all food that's been shipped from around the world. And we've seen that really shockingly during the pandemic. But the idea of something picked that has to leave still on it, or that you're there helping to shell the peas. That's what we do. I put peas up on the bar in the cafe one day. And all of a sudden, all of the customers were up at the counter. And we have the phone answers shell peas, and they're given recognition, because they've helped to cook so much by doing that work. And it's, it's, it's a group activity. And we need to know that, you know, it's meaningful work that we're doing to feed people. Absolutely Alice and I think that could be a wonderful, wonderful place, wonderful place to end our discussion I think we are nearly out of time. It's an absolute joy to speak to you Alice and to hear about all the wonderful projects you have going going on and and and some of the wonderful anecdotes from from, you know, the rich rich rich, you know, experiences and restaurants and wonderful things that you've spent spent your life and food doing so. Yeah, it's just been a pleasure. It really brings back all of those times in England, because I, I've lived there a couple of years, all told, and I have many friends and my dear friend Sally Clark. Yes, that she's a disciple of she can. Well, we welcome you with open arms, whenever, whenever you come back Alice, always. Now, I think they know when you have a project that you really think I could help this, I could share in the schools. Okay. I would love that I would love that and I'm sure I'm sure there will be one soon. Fantastic. Bye bye. Thank you everyone. Thank you so much, Alison, and for me and I'm sure from everyone for the most delicious and nutritious conversation. So inviting us into your into your world and it feels like we're almost in your home it's been so lovely and tantalizing looking all those cookery books behind you and hearing about your amazing work with food I've taken so much away, you know just kind of the importance of food as pleasure and food as everybody's right to have really good food. And that is just I think everyone's going to take that home and also that that food, as you said, is about beauty. Absolutely fantastic. Anna, you've done the most wonderful job. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining the British Library food season. Do go to our web page and check out other events which are coming up over the next couple of weeks. There are still a few tickets available. Thank you again to KitchenAid and thank you so much for listening. Goodbye. Thank you.