 Howard Norman to give an introduction about this book for quite some time and One thing I did say to him One thing I did say to Bernie I said look if you're going to call this thing a novel you have to make some stuff up Some of you might recall a novel by Susan Fromberg Schaefer called the madness of the seduced woman It was a turn of the century That is 19th to 20th century atmospheric thriller The woman of the title is on her way to Montpelier When she witnesses an incident that forever changes her life But that novel was about the hazards of even approaching Montpelier If there are other novels before Bernie lambax on civil liberties which are set in Montpelier proper Let alone so inventively reveal Uncivilities or certainly the un-pastoral aspects of just everyday life in our capital. I'm not aware of On the book I refer to uncivil liberties as the B side of moonlight in Vermont Those of us old enough to remember 45s Will recall that the B sides often were the more shadowy Erotically or socially charged and all around less easily comforting Sides than the A side The B sides as Booker T. Washington put it quote tells us things we don't always care to know But they sure jazz things up There's much Bandied about these days about the formal or informal differences between autobiographical fiction and every other sort And yet in the end it seems to me that any kind of writing strives for just one basic thing really and that's very similitude to describe life With vivid immediacy to make the streets we walk on the town we live in the people we know The situational ethics we share or which divide us To make the familiar somehow even more familiar or Given some of the tensions of a novel like Bernie's We find ourselves experiencing the familiar in perhaps unfamiliar ways So if you take a chapter in Bernie's novel like arguing prayer Which is such a finely wrought and transitional chapter Remember nobody who doesn't know Bernie doesn't know of his indispensable work with the First Amendment rights and so much else That so deeply informs our lives No a reader just experiences a writer of fiction Having chosen a certain subject matter and chosen to write about lives in a particular time and place but really What I want most to do is to thank Bernie lambak For allowing me to follow this first fictional journey of his to read the manuscript in progress as his thinking changed as The story evolved all the while holding to its original inspirations To see close up a person sponsored by his own perseverance Disciplined curiosities and coming to knowledge of himself as a writer has really been a gift Even those of you who know Bernie very well. I Imagine we'll have to say yes, but I didn't quite know this Bernie Because a novel organizes and presents a person's emotions opinions Philosophies of life and everything else in a way. Nothing else can really This may sound a little offbeat a connection, but Bernie is Canadian Born and raised in St. Lambert a kind of suburb of Montreal and As we know from Ovid when a person lands on foreign shores That person has afforded the opportunity to look at his new world At what Ovid called the artistic distance Well Bernie of course has long been of this place Montpelier But in the artistry of his novel there is exhibited also a necessary distance Whether far or near to tell us things about our lives and the place we live Through a lens. We might not otherwise have Summer said mom wrote I Strive for lawyerly sentences By that I mean sentences which construct an orderly view of our humanity and haplessness and foibles So Bernie what I want to say is you've written a very fine story and On every page a reader wants to know what happens next and that's a most difficult thing to accomplish Good start. Thank you so much So this is a little overwhelming for me Obama never had crowds like this There's okay. Yeah, I mean if you can't hear me, please let me know. Is this good? Can you hear me back there? I saw I mean Howard Norman who just spoke is He's an incredible novelist and I just have the good fortune that he's an old friend of my brothers Who lives in Toronto, but Howard lives here part of the year so I got to know him here and he Took interest in my book because I pressured him to do so And you know read some really You know a kind of a pretty early version of it and At times I was discouraged but Howard said to me he said look you you have a novel here and It really it allowed me to keep going and I mean it's really One of the reasons why I was able to keep writing so I'm enormously grateful for that. Thank you so much I've got to say my publisher Stephen MacArthur is sitting right here and and right next to him is Ricky guard diamond who was the editor of this book and They they are the midwives and Just tremendous to work with Ricky is just a brilliant editor. She's also the author of Screwnomics, which is well, it's tucked right here and it was just published really a few weeks ago and For those of you who like economic theory and feminist theory Which you know usually economic theory and feminist theory is is inscrutable and impossible to read both of them, but But Ricky's book is incredibly lucid and irreverent and it's a wonderful book. So I encourage people to read Screwnomics It's really something I've got about 20 pages left in it, but that's not much of it I want Susan bull Riley is over here and Susan is the Painter who painted the the painting that's on the cover of the book She's she's really an incredible painter and has a lot of work. She lives in East Montpelier now, but she's You got to check out more of her work when you see a lot of galleries have been Hosting her work at various times. So check it out Susan bull Riley And I think Donnie Hoffman is here. She's the design. She's sitting back here She's the designer of this. So the reason it looks good in addition to the painting on the cover But all you know the inside and the outside was all designed by Donnie So I know there's more people to thank my greatest critic is my son Willie sitting here and he read early graphs and Was was very helpful and my wife Linda here also Coming everybody I Guess I'd kind of like to sit down I will read I will So I'm gonna start really almost at the very beginning and read read an early chapter and then I'll skip a little bit and read another one On a hill to the north of Montpelier sits Mahadi Park a thousand acres of tall pines and mixed deciduous woods Sheer granite outcrops overlook the town trails meander through the park a Couple of open shelters one near the park entrance off Smiley Street The other higher up near the fire tower are used for picnics and barbecues even in winter Vermonters Snow had fallen a few days earlier and lay in scattered patches over the dark ground on this cold morning in November Before dawn a man walking his dog along the trail that skirts the bottom of one of the steep outcrops Came upon a body He didn't notice her at first in the dim light below the ledge Steamer am I loud enough He was picking his way carefully along the trail Stepping over roots and rocks a mournful fiddle tune running through his head his old dog snuffling along beside him He smelled the familiar dampness of the woods and the earth The dog stopped to inspect the lumpy shape at the side of the trail among the rocks and maple leaf detritus Water dripped down the granite ledge audible in the stillness The man stepped closer And he then saw the shape Was a girl twisted awkwardly in her down jacket her eyes open and clouded A denim cloth handbag was near the body He spun around No one else was there. He muttered an oath to the dog and they hurried home In 15 minutes. He was on the phone with the Montpelier police Soon the cops were at the spot below the cliff They found identification in a pocket of the handbag, but sergeant LaPorte already knew who the girl was They all knew her mother deputy state's attorney Francine Laughlin Barry LaPorte held his breath as he looked down at young Kerry Pearson Innocent and dead All he said was shit and then he looked up at the wet granite cliff 30 feet he guessed There was a trail near the top not so close to the edge This had never happened before no one had ever fallen over the over the ledge And no one had jumped This chapter is about 20 pages into the book. So there's a few things that have happened, but not too much I Wasn't a joke Gray and dark outside the start of the long season Leaning back in his chair with his legs propped on his desk, Sam Jacobson looked out At the snowflakes swirling by his window and the leaves skittering across the street His office was on the second floor overlooking chamber street The shop below the office Ripfos antiques sold vintage clothing and sundries And doubled as the office for a documentary filmmaker Merchants came and went in Montpelier before the vintage clothing. It had been a store that catered to wickens Sam amused himself with the fantasy of a wick and delivering the invocation prayer at the town meeting Up in jefferson where lucy cross made her home And before the wickens he remembered the space it hosted upscale kitchenware the front window displaying bright huge colanders and crockery On the other hand colton's hardware around the corner on sprawl street Was nearing its 80th anniversary Having bravely resisted the box store boom that sought to coat vermont with the new jersey pallor With hardware stores the size of city blocks springing up all over the champlain valley Everybody loved colton's where your bill was cranked out of an antique adding machine And the staff had the facility to advise you precisely what length and girth Of bolt you needed for your current home project Sam watched the wretched november snow and held both hands around the mug of coffee He had brought back from sacred grounds cafe Okay, yeah, this really is a local audience He thought about colton's hardware and then about his wife dana Who had a similar kind of stamina sticking with him through his periods of self-doubt and regret They met when he was a law student and she was an undergrad psych major They had eyed each other on several days over the cheeses at orange street market in new haven connecticut She spoke the first words asking him whether he liked manchego He didn't know what manchego was She explained about manchego and the manchega sheep in spain Although she didn't know when he asked just toying with the really why an italian market would carry a spanish sheep cheese Sheep and cheese seemed to interest her It was the way she spoke about sheep and cheese and the way her calm eyes appraised him as she did so that interested sam They fell in love They were married three years later still living in new haven and her pregnancy with the child who became sarah Shocked them into moving north to cold san vermont He had been ready anyway to leave his job as an associate at new haven's largest law firm Where the leading partner who assigned sam most of his projects periodically jaunted to africa for safari hunts He killed lions for crying out loud Sam stroked the cleft in his chin the coffee mug set precariously on a stack of files at the edge of the desk In his mind now he pictured donna over the cheese board on their kitchen table With her calm blue gray eyes fixed on him and her mouth even unkind Suddenly he felt awful. He had left the house that morning saying hardly more than two words to donna What's on your agenda for today? She had asked The usual stuff at the office you and he was out the door heading to sacred grounds Her words see you tonight at dinnertime drifted out to the street after him He was taking her for granted. He vowed to stop doing that. He tried her cell phone, but got no answer He would be in the car by now heading to her office in riverbury. He didn't leave a message He'd have to ask donna about ricky still. Well, he thought Maybe donna had heard something from clara Ricky was acting pretty strange that morning at the cafe Rushing out in his loping stride much as sam had left his house barely saying a word He liked the kid immensely and worried about him He worried about a lot of things his prostate his marriage israily settlements video games and ricky still well He didn't worry about the boy's soul Which was surely well protected by virtue of membership in the fellowship church of the crucified savior But about his happiness He looked at the files piled on the table next to his desk and turned his eyes back to his reading He was reading a court opinion on the question of whether a bank's security interest in a farmer's cattle Also covered the milk and if so whether it had priority over the dairy co-ops interest in the milk Like colton's hardware the subjects of ramon case law resisted change This was one of the things sam born and bred in new york city liked about his adopted state and its legal culture He read another paragraph using his yellow highlighter to underline one or another passage This was performed by habit and served little real function The radiator in his office began to clank And he was startled glancing its way to see that alisha stood at his office door staring at him Alisha Santana had started work as an associate at sam's office some 15 years earlier When there were five lawyers At the firm later there was a difficult split and sam left with alisha who then became his partner The split had been over personality and money Sam had come to recognize that it was mostly his personality that was the problem That was the way sam approached the past He was the villain featured in his autobiographical documentary And every new year rolled another year into the dreaded past The list of regrets accumulated like worn out furniture in an attic But he didn't shortchange the future he worried about that too In spite of it all to his good fortune and partly by his deft maneuvering Alisha high strong and brilliant had come with him. He was delighted with the arrangement And he told himself his delight had nothing to do with her dark sinuous beauty The two of them did not always agree A year or two earlier sam had represented one of montpellier city counselors who had been the subject of a nasty article in the local paper the central vermont argus The article asserted that the city counselor had underpaid her federal income tax, but that wasn't true Her taxes had only been filed late and she had duly requested an extension of time from the irs Claiming the newspaper had damaged her reputation by publishing false information sam filed a defamation suit The case didn't settle and was tried before a jury the jury found for the argus On the ground that the newspaper didn't know the information was false At the time it ran the article nor did it act with reckless disregard for the truth of the information The minimum quantum of fault needed in a case like this as the judge had instructed and emphasized to the jury The argus might have might have been negligent in publishing the article, but negligence was not enough For a public figure like the city counselor to establish liability under the law of defamation Sam was angry about the result You shouldn't be suing the press sam alisha said they've got a first amendment right to publish news stories Fine said sam, but they should take care to get their facts right. This was sloppy reporting You got to live with some slop if you want a free press she retorted They need room to make mistakes. Otherwise we end up in a police state You're not perhaps overstating things sam suggested No, she said I don't want us suing the press This sort of disagreement did not trouble sam alisha was at liberty to question his judgment He knew her objection was a sign of respect Respect flowed freely between them Now she stood in the doorway and stared at sam with her dark eyes wide you haven't heard Heard the snow was coming harder outside moving faster sideways I just got a call from barb at the high school. She finally said Oh sam, this is difficult alisha's eyes were glistening and she paused again The school's in shock There was another moment of quiet Kerry Pearson is a student there. She's fran lawflin's daughter Sam knew of francine lawflin one of the prosecutors at the county state's attorney's office And an old friend of alisha's Francine and alicia had been in the same class at vermont law school Two women who had bonded together in the tiny community of the law school Laughing and crying about sex and politics and studying through the night for their exams Francine's daughter Kerry now a senior at montpelier high school the same grade as ricky stillwell Was still a toddler when her mother and alicia were in law school as sam remembered it And he knew alicia had a soft spot for the girl Sam nodded What happened Alisha looked down for a moment embarrassed by her tears She's dead Kerry she committed suicide last night. I guess she was found this morning Sam took his feet off his desk His stomach was cramping and the radiator was banging louder He got up and wrapped his arms around alicia's small shoulders She was shaking and could not speak That's probably a good place to stop I You know, I had another chapter in mind, but um, I think that's a good place to stop. I think it's enough for eating fair enough So what do we do now questions like is that sam samantha? You know, and I didn't really thank samantha colbert and bearpond books and amanda manard I mean samantha's the one that put this event on As far as I can tell and amanda is the one who's sort of in charge of getting all the books here and making sure They're sold But I mean, I really appreciate bearpond books and and the folks here for for doing that. I mean, they do a lot of book book events It's really something. Um, thank you so much Okay, I guess, uh, I'll take questions, right? We'll do that Yes steamer Oh, why mahali parts full street scape river We're in mont pilier, right? Yeah, we're in mont pilier and I kept the name mont pilier although I didn't start that way It actually started with a different name and then some readers later in the game said no call it mont pilier And they were right. So I called it mont pilier And I I just decided to use fictional names. I mean some of them are I'm paying homage to people like mahadi Is named after judge skit. Mahadi who you know, it was sort of a hero of mine in some respects and so I'm kind of um I do that a bit here and there I mean it is Last name I just named the street after my wife But otherwise it's a bit random I mentioned a smiley smiley street Early on and I think I read a thing with smiley street and that's a bit of homage to john lucare Who's an author I admire is one of his protagonists of smiley? Yes, sir Books need to be sold to break even The question and uh my publisher wouldn't know more than I do. I mean, uh a lot A lot Of 20 Peter so it's burning lamb back a pen name They've been holding out on us the whole time. Now. What was the inspiration for writing this? So the the real question is what was the inspiration for writing and It's hard to answer that, you know some Although you didn't get it from what I read there's a chunk of the book that's really about legal issues and discussion of Legal questions as first amendment issues about free speech in the schools and hate hate speech and cyber bullying There's questions about religion at town meeting and whether towns should be sponsoring religious activities There's an employment discrimination suit and so there's a lot of discussion about legal issues that I try to make interesting, but I you know, I Mean I've had so I've been a practicing lawyer for those who don't know me for 30 years or so and I've had some experience with some of the issues That the book deals with really with most of the issues I've had a legal experience and and helping clients deal with those issues And I thought some of these issues are really interesting Especially the constitutional questions and I wanted to kind of try to create a fiction That was built around some legal arguments and that showed the complexity of the arguments and And you know tried to then Build a build a story around that. So that's kind of how it started for me David Are there any people in the world teachers or other people who are either alive or not? We'd really like to see your book Well, I mean, yeah, my parents for sure who are not alive My mother died a long time ago, but my father did read an early draft of this book. He died Going on four years ago now and uh, so you know, I started the book seven years ago And so yeah, he was a very interested He used to read a ton of mysteries. So, you know, he was very supportive of this Kind of chapter in my life and I'm I'm really sorry. He didn't get to See it come to fruition Toby made you write a mystery What made it what made me write a mystery? Well, I I guess it's you know, it's a genre that I that I've always liked and I do read a lot of mysteries and I I like legal mysteries in particular, but That's just a genre on them sort of familiar with I think this is a little bit different than most It's a little heavier on the law than most mysteries and um but Yeah, I mean I just I wanted to capture people's interest and I I know a mystery is one way to do that So I hope I hope it works to that effect Yeah So the question is the similarities and differences of the process of lawyering versus the process of writing I have no clue I don't know. I I don't know. I wish I had a good answer for that. I'll think about that And and I'll write here Yeah Thank you for that comment, I appreciate that Yes Well, I I'm promoting it Um through bookstores I'm I'm doing I'm doing a cup some other readings at vermont bookstores and I did a reading last week at a handover bookstore and uh, you know, it's we've sent it out to libraries and um, and you know, Stephen Stephen mccarthur of rootstock publishing here and no has a better answer for that And I mean if you want to stand up and speak to answering that you're welcome to or not as you wish Uh, both in state and out of state the places like book lists and the library journal places that we view books and can't in terms of Bookstore owners and bookstore buyers and librarians Percussed reviews for instance, we'll have a review fairly soon and we'll be posting it up on Of course, we can't guarantee How they review Yeah, um the the um vermont bar journal Kindly did a nice review early on before publication and so that you know goes out to all the vermont lawyers Question down here. Yeah, yeah Uh-oh Do you see you playing yourself in the movie? I don't see that at all You're obviously the protagonist, so why don't you play yourself? No, I'm not the protagonist. Oh, yes, you are Okay, that's going to be a debate Yeah, I mean we there is sort of a protagonist in the book It's kind of an ensemble of characters, but there is this and I read a chapter sort of focused on him Sam Jacobson and he has some commonalities with me But he's not me He's not me keep that in mind, please Andrew is this the beginning of a series? Not yet No, I mean I don't I really don't have another Novel in mind at the moment I would like to do more because I I like Writing it I had fun and I could imagine that there were characters in this book that could have second lives So that's you know possible, but it's really just a pure imagination at this moment Harry I mean I just know you and I know how much you love to write and how you taught your Boys you had them journal every summer and write So just wondering if it's been a long In your So the question is whether I always wanted to write for a long long time and No, not real. I hadn't thought about writing a novel until Basically until I started seven years ago. I just said okay. I want to write a novel and I sort of started Doing it. Um, but I hadn't thought about I mean I write as a lawyer every lawyer writes a lot and we so I'm always writing but it's fiction is Howard fiction is really different Really hard I mean it's truly different and I've never written short stories or anything. So that's all new to me and and I hadn't Planned to do that earlier. No Yeah, paul Was there a moment of resistance or challenges that you faced in going into this unknown House So were there challenges going into this and yes and resistance going into yeah, I mean at various points Certainly I got this when I say I worked on it for seven years But it wasn't you know every day Who would sit idle for six months at a time and then I would pick it up again Work for a few months. So there were times where I thought well, this really isn't working out This isn't going anywhere or it's just not good enough and you know, I'd get discouraged And you know, but there was enough in there for me to kind of keep going back to it Especially with some helpful readers who were encouraging That that really did help me if I didn't have readers. I don't think I you know could have kept going mary alice mary alice who's the Who runs and owns a down-home kitchen and she's responsible for the cookies here And her sapphire and Across the street Bernie I wanted to ask you as a keen observer of this particular community's life And people and that definitely comes through in your book that you're very You're you're very watchful You're very insightful and you're studying the people that live in this particular small community What advice would you give to us all as a community? In terms of you know, you're obviously studying and thinking about a Lot of legal issues and a lot of ethical issues. That was the thing that came through for me in reading the book What advice would you give us as a community and thinking about the ethical challenges that we currently have as a community? In just your study of us as a community You're getting away with a lot of like lazy questions. Yeah, that's a real tough ball right there Um, that's a long conversation and I don't you know, I don't have any particular insight I mean, I don't know if you all heard the question. I think you did but I don't have Particular insight about that. I thank you for the comment and I mean, I wish I could answer that intelligently, but Yeah, I mean the so the you know, there's a chunk of the book that deals with What's protected speech in schools? And of course, that's really relevant. I mean right now, you know with Black lives matter flags flying. I mean some people are questioning How that sort of fits within the first amendment, which is an interesting question and And I've you know been consulted by school districts about that question. So so that's happening And of course cyber bullying is happening Can I leave it at that? She read it in one night, so you must not have really read it very carefully Thank you very much. Yeah Hi, Peter Has it deepened my commitment to the practice or moved me more towards writing well Um, I don't think it's deepened or lessened to my commitment to the practice of law I mean, I'm keeping my day job Clearly unless everybody buys What did I say 50 books Um, yeah, I mean, I you know, I'm not about to make a living as a fiction writer, but But I do want to write more and and you know, I'm not going to be Practicing law full-time for that long and I'm not really full-time at this point anyway because I kind of don't work that hard Play a lot of ping-pong as some people Steven Knowing you and knowing a lot of your own philosophical foundational beliefs about the law and Issues was that you could write in this protagonist Sam Contrary opinions and contrary Conflicting kinds of Situations And it didn't come across as you know, one big for me and This is what I believe and I'm going to put it into my character It just was So much more subtle than that and that was for me. That was one of the first things that attracted me How did you Find that task of taking an opposite position Or having an opposite kind of uh decision made Difficult Needle Yeah, I don't know if everybody heard of like I can't really repeat the question but It has to do with you know, the um Different points of view opposing points of view reflected even in the same character at times and you know what I mean The legal issues are that I deal with in the book to me are complex and and nuanced and there aren't simple Yes or no answers to most of these things, you know the degree to which Students have the right to express freely um Their views in school even when it's really hurtful Um, the the case in the book is about homophobic speech that's very very hurtful and And these questions aren't simple and and there's Boyers know and judges know that there are competing Values at stake and and competing arguments that can be made and I so my point in addressing these things is not to Say one view is right or wrong, but it's to really address the ambiguity In the law and and the difficulty of resolving many of these questions So I that's an approach I take throughout the book that these are difficult questions So did that address your question, I mean making him not heroic Yeah, nobody's heroic and nobody's too built. I mean there is sort of a person In the book who's rather A villain, but I wanted to make that character. Um, also somebody that one could empathize with And um, that was important to me that That I dealt with character that the characters are ambiguous as well as the issues Yes, Stephen You mentioned a few minutes ago your reference about ping pong perhaps if you're to write another book you could Bring in the the topic of like an illegal server followed by a perfect kill That'll get a lot of readers Excuse me I have to go get a cup of tea and go read now Thank you Cindy. Thanks Jeff for coming. Thanks. I hope that arm heals. Thank you. Okay. And if there's a movie will you be in approach? I get ahead of you No Yeah, lori Is there one takeaway I want readers to have like I guess I wouldn't say that I mean, I think the answer to the previous question about the complexity of these issues that there's uh, You know, you can have really strong views, but there are strong competing views that have validity as well in many cases and and we shouldn't be too sure of ourselves Joseph How did the book change from the time you started writing it to what we see today? And did your views of the issues change as you wrote the book? How did the book change and did my views change? Um, the book changed um, largely by um You know trying to make the characters come alive because I've written, you know a basic story, but I then I really needed to have the characters Breathe and and come alive and that was the challenge for me not having written fiction I mean I've written about legal arguments always so that that wasn't so hard but so the big change was making it breathe and wanting the readers to Really empathize with the characters and believe them So that I mean that's the difficult part for me Um, does that what did you have another part to the question? Did your view of the issues that you write about change over the course of the book? Uh, inevitably to some extent, but I you know Again, it's so increasing the The ambiguity making it less of an advocacy piece and and Richer that way. So yeah Yeah Yeah, shin She asked what I learned about myself By writing the book. I mean, it's a huge accomplishment over seven years Yeah, I I don't know I might answer that. Well, you have grit, right? Grit. I have grit Yeah, yeah, okay Yeah, how about how much did you write at willow on? How much did I write at willow on a restaurant? We both frequent Um, I I didn't do any writing at willow on. I did all the writing was done On my computer and I don't carry around a laptop that I write on so I mean it was just done On the screen all of it not on a yellow legal pad Aaron So I'm wondering when you thought of the title because for me it's actually resonating with A lot of things that I'm reading in the media today Um, so yeah, that coincidence the title been the title all along. No, it wasn't the title all along I went through a series of titles So, I mean, I just I had different names for it as I was writing it and I think I mean it was really during the editing stage Um With ricky is the editor that that the title then came became this title on civil liberties um And there are other books called on civil liberties. It turns out But not by bernie land not by me I don't think any of them are fiction, but I may be wrong about that There's a couple of non-fiction books calvin trillum used to write for the nation Well known writes in new yorker as a book called on civil liberties From you know, maybe 25 years ago I'm sorry. Yeah one more comment. Sure I I read anything during christian row. He's a lawyer And this is an equal plot about better than christian. My book is better than christian I just want to say a word because I got you off Use the microphone I'm a sax player. So I usually come across pretty loud But if if you have an opportunity after you read this book to go to amazon And I'm sorry to have said the word in the bear pun books But it's true I hear this from every independent publisher around the country If you get 50 or more reviews and ratings on amazon Uh, jeff bezos bumps you up to a different level of exposure 50 So everybody here who reads this book if you have an opportunity to go on to amazon and review the book Tons of people will go there look at the book see all of the reviews Many of them will go to their local independent bookstore like bear pun At least we hope they do That's the intent I don't think they're there yet Yeah, it'll be up in a week in a week or so I mean the book is available on amazon, although that's not something we should say too loud here, but But yeah, there'll be a new version coming up Kim How did my experience at Yale Law School influence me and Kim cheney is also a graduate of Yale Law School I mean I stuck in some references to Yale Law School And there's actually a character in the latter part of the book who was the dean of the law school And I used his real name Guido Calabresi is the judge on the court of appeals For the second circuit and I I actually you know used his name and then I I realized before publishing the thing I better contact him Say is this okay, and I just I sent him a copy of the manuscript and he did Did give me his blessing to use it But other than that, I mean I don't think matters. It could have been any law school I mean except that you know Yale Law School is a place where people talk about ideas and and you know deeper constitutional questions. It's not so much What lawyers call black letter law there? Yes So numerous authors have heard interviewed and talked about Developing characters and then as Writing progresses the characters take on a life of their own speak for themselves. So to speak Too very very different kinds of writing. I'm curious about how you had to bridge Yeah, so how did I bridge the Chasm between legal writing and fiction I mean it was new for me. You mentioned characters taking on a life of their own that kind of happened for me a little bit I did experience that where I I did you know I did sort of have a bit of a feeling that the characters were telling me what should happen next And then that's you know a bit of a fantasy, but it felt that way And so they did kind of take on personalities And I found that really interesting How are we doing with time? I mean There was another question down that way. Yep. Oh, yes, I'm interested in what the character you found most difficult to Round out and the one you found most fun Which character was most difficult to round out and which character was most fun? Well, you know, there's there is a character who is as I said is kind of villainous and that character Was perhaps the most difficult to round out. I don't want to say more about That So, yeah, I a number of them were funder right about I don't think I have one that was Most you know most enjoyable to well, then who would you want to meet? Who do I want to meet? Which one would you want to meet? Well So this judge, you know, who I wrote about Guido Calabres, I've met him And so he was fun to meet except not there was one time where I did an argument of the second circuit And he was the presiding judge on that panel and that was not fun It really wasn't It turned out Can you say it again you use some family members personalities I use well, I mean I sometimes I Sometimes used bits and pieces of people's lives including family member lives that creep into the book But I don't know so much about their personalities. I tried to I mean as I continued to write I tried to have the characters be Themselves and not just be reflections of people even sometimes I sprinkle family members names in here and there on the book As you know, but yeah, I don't know if the you know the personalities are Yeah, yeah, the situation Yeah, I'll do that Thank you so much