 2023 general elections might not hold due to the current insecurity plaguing the country. And former Senate President Ayam Paius Ayam sends an open letter to President Buhari saying that the search for a solution to Nigeria's problems must involve all citizens for this is plus politics. And I am Mary-Hanna Cole. We're increasing fears that the 2023 general polls might not hold due to the insecurity plaguing the country. Other reasons include adaptation for secession by some parts of the country and the insistence by many groups and leaders that the country must be restructured with fiscal and other powers devolved to the federating units before this election can hold. In addition, the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, said that the attacks on its offices could derail the general elections. Joining us to have this conversation is O'Punabot Inko Tareh. He's a former Special Advisor to the River State Governor and, of course, we're being joined by Dennis Samakri. He is a former Assistant Director in the Department of State Services. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you, Mary-Hanna, and good evening. Great. There are very interesting questions that I want to start asking, but I want to start by talking about the level of insecurity that is facing the country. Mr. Samakri, I'm sure that you're almost sick of being asked questions as to how we can turn around the situation of insecurity in the country. You seem to be, I mean, I think it's now a day job for you to sit in front of a camera or be talking on the radio station as to how bad the situation is. As at yesterday, there were several killings. In fact, in Calabar, a man was stabbed in the back of his head and dumped by the highway. As at today, there was a report that a female journalist was being kidnapped and her six month old baby was left behind. So there seems to be, everybody, literally everybody, even those of us who think we're safe, are not necessarily safe. And what does that say for a country where our president sits or over-echo us? Our president seems to be the big brother who's visiting other countries and asking for peace, but our backyard is literally on fire. We have a big problem in our hands. I think Nigeria actually is at the crossroads right now and it's a situation where if we don't handle it properly right now, we're going to tip off on the precipice. So these issues, which are the fundamental issues, issues of threats to national security, should I say the root causes that have been bothering us, need to be addressed. Because apparently we are trying to address simple without going to the root causes. And we're trying to address the root causes, I think, will just be going around in circles. So every day we talk about it and then of course the one day the new service chiefs will guard the new service chiefs and of course, like we have always said, you cannot put new wine in an old bottle and hope that it will be the same. So I think the right time for the government to do right now is to sit back. I think that's what they are doing in Abuja right now. I think this is the second day of the meeting. Sit back and then of course go to the drawing board. And the Ministry of Defense have said that Nigeria is bleeding. And if it is bleeding, then I think it's high time we go to the emergency room and call all the specialist doctors to go in there and look at what is going on and help stop the bleeding. I mean, we're all beginning to sound like broken records of course. And for an outsider looking, and I was talking to some of my friends in DC yesterday and they were all just asking the same question that it's like the answers to our problem is literally in front of us. But we're looking beyond it to look for solutions that may not necessarily be available to us. I mean, before now we had been calling on Mr. President to address these issues that have, because as far as I'm concerned, these were very little issues that have spiraled out of control and now we cannot deal with them. We're needing to have call meetings and, you know. So why do you think it took so long for the presidency to realize? Was it that he did not know? Is it that he did not understand how the problem, because you kept saying that until we deal with the source of the problem. But we knew what the source of the problem was. Why couldn't we take out that source early enough? Why did we have to wait till now that it's becoming a national issue which is threatening the fibers of this country? You know, like when you look at it, sometimes you listen to the presidential advisers or the spokesmen who come out to tell us, you know, immediately things that are contrary, because they are reading either the body language of the president or they are not informing him properly. And then, of course, when we listen to them, we find out that there is this gap between them and what people are feeling. Because it is simple. What Nigeria is going through right now is a serious bleeding. And then, of course, people are scared. Nobody is safe. Before, people thought that it was going to be in the Northeast. But right now, I think even the Lagos here, you know, who stayed, people are being kidnapped. In the South, people are being kidnapped. So what are we going to do about this? We are for, you know, avoidance of sounding like a broken record. Of course, we have to look at those root causes. And those root causes will require people sitting down and coming up with new ideas on how to tackle this particular problem. Okay. Let me go to you, Mr. Poonaboy and Kottaira. There have been several fears that, I mean, increasing threats to the general polls and fears that the election may not hold. Now, the reasons were listed as increasing wave of insecurity, just as Mr. Amakri has said, a climate of violence, agitation, forced accession by some parts of the country and insistence by many groups and their leaders that the country must be restructured with physical and other powers devolved to federating unions. Just as I said at the beginning of this conversation, do you hold the same view? If we apply this, would we be able to solve Nigeria's problem in the interim? Well, talking of holding the same views, I'll tell you yes, because the presidency or the federal government is just slandering the morass of approaches. Forget the high blood pressure of the Secretary-General and the name of the country's performance. That's all we see. Our political engineers are right. Social climate, exceeding the impact of it, and economic act must be highly compromised. And so we are headed slowly but steadily for a rendezvous with Amakri. And I said something is wrong. We are faced with intricate, complex problems. And I felt something is done, I'm done as giddy shortly. I'm not with delusion. Distracted them, been employed. First and foremost, I will tell you that the federal government is complicit in all that is going on. How so? I said complicit and I have all the facts. I have all the facts. So both from our perspective. If you allow me, first, they deceive Nigeria's. The former service chief deceived Nigeria when they said they had contained, they had decimated the usual kinds of adjectives such as strategically, tactically and what have you. But when the chief of staff was removed, the chief of family staff was removed from office. And his incompetence and mediocrity rewarded with unpartheidural appointment. We were the same person who said it will take over 20 years or thereabouts to contain the insurgents. That is the contradiction of that. Why did you initially deceive Nigeria that these people have been contained? Now you are telling us that it will take about 20 years or thereabouts. So there is no insincerity. You have a schizophrenic personality as a government. You cannot trust what they say. That is one aspect of it. You also have the issue of the defense minister who said, I told me it was a freedom of speech because it wasn't an arranged, a clear range in terms. Who said that Nigeria should defend themselves as loony as that is? Nigeria's who are unarmed to defend themselves against armed people who have people that are even more sophisticated than the army, different. Lots of, they are just from them. Lots of hope. That is the second aspect of it. Then, hello, can you hear me? We can hear you. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Sorry, the dust of the light, but the dust will come out. This is a cultural issue. Okay, so that is it again. There we have the issue of the gumi. The gumi's issue should not be treated like this. It was not managed by the federal government at any point in time to liaise with this people. After when gumi spoke with them, then we have declared terrorists and declared one. Gumi went ahead, spoke with them, came back, even said that me. But Mr. Tyria, Mr. Tyria, I'm sorry, just hold on, just hold on. I'm not in any way making a case for gumi because I have spoken with the man. If there was not some form of an opening, there would not be a gumi. If we had a government that was functioning, if our security agencies were doing their job as they should, there would not be an opportunity for a gumi to intervene. And I'll tell you why gumi has to be grilled by the security. Let me tell you why gumi has to be grilled by the security. Now, you remember the president, even before he became the president, said if the Niger Delta could be granted and not be given, why not the Boko Haram? And though they are using, gumi is only a decoy. What they are using is gumi, gumi is actually wanting to say what the presidency wants. He is calling on behalf of the president to be a president. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I have to come in there. I'm sorry, the presidents just look here to defend themselves. We cannot, it's not recent anywhere, we have not heard the presidency say that gumi is speaking for them or he's saying or speaking their minds, of course. Actions to slander the votes. And it is our meaning is not in the message but in the message user. And that is why you have to be as transparent as possible. But it is our right to say, as citizens, and we have a president that is practical, that does not talk, he's only talking to his advisor, to his lieutenant, to his leadership. And if that is the case, then we can also inside, we cannot just calculate from the situation. That is what, and that is why we are educated. That is why we went to school. So that is all right. So if you don't want any distortion in the channel, they'll come out of the next nine years. Well, this is a question I want to throw back to you, Mr. Macri. This is obviously a slap on the face of security forces. I mean, security apparatuses that we have in this country and you used to be part of it. He's making a case that, you know, if there were no loopholes to be plugged, there would not be a gumi. And then there still is a gumi who's going about, especially in the case of the pandemic situation, he has also been spitting a lot of fire when Nigerians have been criticizing him. So again, just to re-echo what Inkotirah is saying, why are people like gumi walking free in a situation as dicey and sensitive as this? Well, you know that the antecedents of gumi, Sheikh Gumi, are well-documented, very well-documented, and the security agencies are very familiar with it. And they've had running battles. Even when I was in service, you know, we've had running battles with gumi. And we know the kind of statements that he made. In fact, he was one of the apologists of Boko Haram. You know, and if you look at it, that's how he is. Some of these people, you know, they pray that the government should come and even advise them so that they can be more popular than what they are. You know, so it is not a situation where the security agencies will now start pushing you around. They will keep an eye on him, but they'll see what he's also planning to do. Really, we should wait to see what he plans to do if he has plans. I mean, there's already enough damage that's been done to us by these so-called bandits. And Boko Haram, not to talk about them. They're already on one hand causing mayhem. They have hoisted a flag close to the FCT. What are we waiting for exactly? I think he has plans because for him to come and say that they are, you know, there should be amnesty for the bandits. You know, bandits are criminals. I don't know whichever name anybody wants to call them. They are criminals. They don't have a leader that is identifiable. They go around and kill people. And then, of course, you cannot compare them to the Niger Delta militants because, of course, everybody knows what the Niger Delta militants stand for. In fact, everybody knows up to the extent that the president of Nigeria at that time have to come out and declare amnesty for them. And then, of course, enter into certain agreements with them. So we cannot compare these people that are busy raising down human life, women and children killing and all kinds of things. You know, and these are bandits. Bandits are criminals. So this is the problem that we are having. When you look at it, it shows that the man has other plans. He has other plans. Okay, Mr. Ikotari, go ahead. My elder brother, Dennis Joseph, we must have that distinction between banditry and militants. A militant is not a criminal. A militant is one who has to use social or political force. I'm sorry, really? A militant is not a criminal. Abducting people, is that not criminal and asking for ransom? And no, no, no, we are talking about Niger Delta militants. And they're not criminal? They're not grand criminals. And in every society, you have the criminals. I mean, there are people that exploit these situations. And in the case of the Niger Delta trouble, so much has pleaded out of the system with the region with little other things to show for it. We are inhaling tenacious air. We were being killed on daily basis. And most of the sicknesses defied medical response. So we said no. We did not get our spleen on any other region. We did not carry out our anger on any other person. We just said you can no longer to our territory, to extradite. But do you agree, but do you agree, Mr. Terrier, that there were certain people who took advantage of the situation and carried out criminal activities? Do you agree that there were people who took advantage of this trouble to carry out criminal activities? Do you agree? Sorry? Do you agree that in this struggle that you are referring to, there were people who took advantage of the situation and carried out criminal activities? Do you agree? I just said people exploited it, just like the anti-Saharan people exploited it. Even in government, people exploit situations, and that is why you have corruption and fraud. Even in government, in every society, set an exploited situation in heaven. And that was very Lawsanda and Lucifer. So you cannot hold that out in heaven. But that does not dissapear the whole essence of the struggle. It doesn't negate it. That depends on... In this particular day, what are they fighting for? It's an agnostic war. These are insurgents. You cannot, even the constitution, for this reason, you cannot force your religion, talk about the Boga Arach, on any other person. You cannot force your belief on any other person. The belief in talk of the headsets, it is a way of trying to take over, Islamize the country. That is what is going on. They don't know that we did not go to the North to destroy anybody. They didn't do that. Okay. Let me post the next question, because we're talking about the elections holding or not. And as we know, parties, political parties in the country, have been aligning and realigning themselves. But then something has been happening recently, might not be on a large scale, but it's happening on a small scale. First, it was a crybone state where, you know, the INEC offices were burned. And it's beginning to, you know, look like INEC offices are being targeted. And my question is, why target these, I mean, INEC offices? Why target these ballot boxes? What exactly could be the undertone of this? I mean, are these things random? Or, I mean, as a politician, what do you think this is they're all angling at? First of all, this is to make a point. It's a referendum of the people with approval of the system. So we are talking about collateral damage. And what we're trying to do is target those institutions that will undermine the government. You know, if you are fighting a war, they say like you are trying to kill a snake. You don't just call it this day, you kill it. If you have a problem with it, then you see it. Otherwise, but so they want to carry out acts that will impact heavily on the federal government. So they go for the electoral first and foremost. A lot of people don't have confidence in our electoral system. And this is a type of feeling. And our boss is buzzing of the feeling that has been in them. So they're trying to find this. That's okay. First, let us run. That's been on this election. Let us go to the police. Of course, we are not the answers. So if you have, if you observe, they've been sent like people say, they sent me to the government house. And I want to tell you that the belief is that the government of the state was not elected by them, but was imposed on them by the Supreme Court. That is the truth. So if you understand this one, they speak in those areas that they think are the problems in this country. So the election is a major problem. The police, a major problem. In fact, the police is about 40% of the problem we have in this country. Then you have recently who put on the mask. So they've gone to this. These ones are not targeted by the headsmen. No, these are targeted by individuals that are agreeing, that are charged. These ones are targeted by them, not by the headsmen. So it's the referendum of the use of approval of a system of a government. And that is what is going on. Okay. Back to you, Mr. Macri. Still talking security and how this might affect the elections come 2023. There have been, just as he has said, because we've not been able to deal with the major violence, violent things that have been happening across the country, we've not been able to nip the issue of Boko Haram nor the banditry or herdsmen in the board. People are now taking advantage of this to cost more. It's becoming a free for all. Does this not one way or the other show that our government is weak and that weakness is being taken advantage of? And who's to say that it might just not get worse in the coming days? Well, from our risk analysis that we've carried out among security practitioners, we have a projection that if things continue the way they are, we don't think there will be an election in 2023 because all the indices are pointed negatively to that. Now, you see, one thing is that the Nigerian politician believes that democracy is elections, but that is not what democracy is talking about. Because many people will see that it is going in there, running for the election, winning by any other means. And then of course, when they are imposed, then they go ahead and do what they want to. But I think Nigerians are very, very worried that they can tire of all this. I don't see anybody actually going out to say that. In fact, I don't see anybody campaigning because if many people campaign, most politicians will be stoned if they go out at this time to say they want to campaign. But they are strategizing. In fact, the APC scribe as at today's early morning news cycle was bolstering about how many millions of people that they've been able to get into their political party when the people in the country are not safe. So I'm trying to understand what the APC, which is the party that is ruling, is prioritizing at a time like this. You have to understand that how many people are members of the APC as compared to the total population of Nigeria? Or how many people even vote during the elections as compared to the total population of Nigeria? So it is a minds game. People are playing the minds game thinking that as we get there, we will start and then, of course, we will win and rule for 50 more years or something like that. But the point is that if the country is not safe, if it is not conducive, you cannot hold elections. And in fact, the Niger state government has come out to tell us that Bogo Arawa has got to put their flag in Nigeria. And then, of course, to remember when former president Jonathan has to go ahead and even bring mercenaries to clear the place so that elections can be held. And now that is by the corner of the country. This time, we have the flag right in the middle of the country. So we have to be very, very careful. I don't know how they are going to do it, but we need to solve this problem before we can go forward. Well, finally, Mr. Inkotariya, is there an end in size? Is there something, do you perceive, like we say in Nigeria, the body language of the presidency and the leadership of this country? Is there an end in size? Are we soon going to heave a sigh of relief or are we just going to be back in our tent hoping that the bullet doesn't hit us next? Well, we'll be back in on this 50-weeks if we continue like this. To me, I think saying it, the panacea to our problem is structurally. Bodo bevended. We must agree on whether we are going to remain as one. And if we are to remain as one, how? In other words, let us go back to the various commissions of inquiries, to the various national conferences. We have the Act of Good Luck, do you know what I'm saying? We also have one that was being shared by Air Route 5 and so on. We conflict them, reduce and come up with a workable document because a lot of people believe there's so much manifold segregation and change discrimination in the system. A lot of people believe that they are not part of this system. They are not part of this country. They have imagined our lives and you must placate them. You must give them that impression that they are part of this country. That is what. Two, we must practice federalism. We are not practicing, people say true federalism. I say there is no claim as true federalism. Is it that you're practicing federalism or you're not practicing federalism? Where we have a central sugar system of government at against the central sugar system of government. Once we are start practicing this thing, I tell you, we are on the right track. That might be hope for us. That might be hope for us. Well, I want to say thank you to you. Opponaboy and Kothaira is a former special advisor to River State Gavna and Mr Dennis Amakri, former director of the DSS. Thank you for speaking with us gentlemen. We appreciate it. Thank you very much. Great. Well, we'll take a short break and when we return, the PDP suggests a solution to the superiority plaguing the country right now. And of course, an open letter has been written to Mr President. My former Senate president will get to find out what he said. Stay with us.