 Today, I'm doing the second ever Zoom interview with Mr. Suresh Pandas, who's Mr. Gay India 2019. Yes? Yes. We're doing an interview with Suresh because he's very unique, and I'm very honored to be able to include him in our series. So, you're in Bangalore, India, is that correct? Yes, that is correct Doug, yeah. I've never been there, but I've been to Delhi, Agra, Jaipur, and I've been to Mumbai more times than I can remember. Oh, that's nice. Yes. So, let's go to the very beginning. Tell us a little bit about your family and your early life. All right, so with regarding to my family, so we're just four, my parents have two kids. I'm the second born, so I would say that I'm a little more loved and a little more spoiled in every way possible as a second born, which is pretty much everywhere across the world that second born is more loved. About to me, as in with my personal life or with my childhood, I always tell this to people that yes, I had a very loving and a very caring and a very warm childhood in the sense at home. My parents were always there and there was no differentiation in any sort of kinds. But I think all the differentiation of who I was started when I go to school, right? First and foremost, yes, I did have a little bit of mannerisms and behaviors which were very feminine. And so I was been in the center of attention for the wrong reasons. And there was another reason also, which is, I'm for sure, you may not kind of comprehend it completely, but yes, color, skin tone as me being dark, you know, was something as an issue for me, not for me personally, but for people around me. And I was always been called out various names for my color and for my mannerisms. So right from childhood, you know, I was always been made feel bad about who I really was. Not an easy time, but I decided that I'm going to kind of survive that. I was getting very angry, very frustrated. And my only way to release the frustration was, yes, I used to cry a lot, because that was one way of, you know, getting things out of my system and not being part of any groups. Even in school as part of the curriculum, you need to be associated with the groups or with your, you know, classmates. And I really hated that for a simple fact is they were the ones where bullying and calling me names while I had to interact with them, play with them. So right from young age, I really didn't like sports, which were more of a teamwork. So I hated football or cricket or even basketball as a matter of fact. But I had this inclination towards sports. So I started getting into athletics because, you know, that's a single person sport. And I also kind of navigated towards playing tennis. So I'm a huge, huge tennis man. I mean, I don't play tennis anymore. I love to, but I don't get the time or the opportunity. But I used to play tennis until all the way to my university. So I was a university level tennis player. And I always like to say, Steffi Graf is my idol, my fan, and my then online trainer as well. So I used to record all her matches and those, you know, those tapes that you used to get and then rewind them, watch them every time again. So for me, I think that was my way of really getting my frustration out and getting my anger out through playing sports. Why don't you have the chance to play more now? It's just that it's timing and there are not many tennis courts available. And even if they're available, you know, the timing really does not work. But yeah, I would love to. I do have two tennis rackets with me and every time there is a grand slam that kind of comes up and I'm like, you know, taking the racket and I'm kind of swinging and doing all that jazz that kind of works on. But yeah, hopefully I'm just pushing myself to, you know, see if I can really get there. So I would love to do that. Moving on, I think there was an incident in my life which kind of was a little bit of a motivating factor for me, which I'll talk a little later. But I think with that strength or with that push that I had, I was able to survive my school and my college days as well. So yeah, I mean, it's not been easy, but at the same time, you know, I think now looking back, yes, I've learned quite a lot from those days. Yeah. You mentioned skin tone a little bit ago. Yes. Yeah. How is that viewed in in society in Indian society? Oh, India was like, I mean, to be honest, I think most of the Indians or majority of the Indians are, you know, probably the wheatish or the dark skinned or the brown skinned people. But we have one of the biggest and the largest, you know, consumption or the consumers for fairness creams is in India. We're close to a $50 million market or I'm not sure it was a $50 million or $50 billion market, but you can see the number of people wanting to be fair. Fairness creams are at its peak here. Again, you know, if you have to go back a little bit in the history as to why this fairness thing kind of really crept in was thanks to again Britishers. They came to India, conquered us and they stayed there for 200 years and they always kind of said that the fairer sex is the better sex. But, you know, if you have to look at our history, look at our architecture, go back and look at some of the painting that were being drawn, which were in color and none of them were like, you know, majority of them were, you know, on the darker side, or the darker skin tone, but still, you know, because of Britishers coming in and being with us for 200 years, they kind of really made us feel shitty about our culture, our skin tone, anything and everything about our, you know, the habits that we had. So this was one of them and this kind of really inculcated into the culture for such a long time that anybody dark is down upon or they are considered to be of a lower class, you know, so that's how they used to kind of associate. And this saved a lot of problem for many, many people. I mean, as a guy, imagine if I'm going through this, girls have it even harder because, you know, when it comes to the time of marriage, then they always want, no matter how dark the guy is, the guy always wants a fair girl. You know, so that's the stereotype, that's the mindset, you know, even media plays with that. You know, so it has been very, very, how do I say, it just hampers your confidence when, you know, people start talking about parents love you, your your relatives may love you for who you are and your skin tone. But it is the society and all the media and all the kind of information that gets passed on. We start feeling shitty of our own skin color. Yeah, so yeah. Do you feel you have resolved that issue within yourself? I am still in that process so you know to go to this thing. Actually, there is this little bit of an incident. Excuse me a little bit of an incident which happened in my life I think when I started working when I was in Bangalore. Until then, you know, I was really never confident on my skin tone because I always rejected as well. Oh, you're dark. Oh, you're not interested in dark boys and all of that jazz. But I think I met this lovely British couple who came down and they were staying in Bangalore for a while. And I met them through a common friend and you know, we hit it off right so we hit it off and you know in a fact that we were getting to know each other we used to party and all of that. And during one of those conversations that you know we were having they said that you know what we love Indian skin color and I was like, come on first and foremost your British so I really don't know if you're cracking jokes or if you're being serious. Or if you're being sarcastic right so I was curious about it and I said, why do you say that. And they told me this very beautiful thing saying that, you know, Siresh you are, you know, I mean look at us. We are fair and we go to the sun we turn red we fall sick. You know we turn a different color. And for heaven's sake we have to go ahead and sit out we have to bake ourselves under the sun, you know so that we don't really have any issues but look at you. You're pretty much the same every time so I think I would rather have your skin tone than anybody else's you know, at the snap of a finger I would love to do that. And for me, I think with regarding to my skin tone issues or my skin color. I think that's where it kind of brought that whole change. Though I'm still struggling with it at times, but I think the confidence level which was at minus 200. It came up to probably, you know, 50 60% and you know, from there it was a gradual progress for me to accept myself and be comfortable with myself. But I still struggle at times when people compliment me for my skin color and all you're looking very beautiful or you're like the dark chocolate. I, you know, I want to believe it. And at the same time I don't want to believe it. You know, I'm kind of in that flow. I mean, I have my partner who's who's I mean he's again he's fair and I'm dark. But then he loves my skin color and he adores me for who I am. But I still have that it's an ongoing process for me. You know where it's still not completely resolved but it's I'm getting there. Fascinating. Yeah. You mentioned as a little boy. Right. You had feminine mannerisms and whatnot. How did you learn about homosexuality when you were young? Or did you? To be honest, I really didn't know anything about homosexuality until I got into college. So I knew I was different right from the time I was in school. I knew I was completely different. Because when boys used to talk about girls and girls you talk about boys and I was like, why am I not able to think that ways? You know, I used to look at a boy and I used to feel so cute and you know those butterfly things that runs and you know you feel and you get that happy feeling. I was getting that when the guys in my school were talking about the girls and vice versa and I was like, you know, why is it anybody talking like this? Like what I'm thinking. And I was not able to share with anybody because I was getting bullied. So I used to kind of shy away from, you know, even talking about my feelings in that aspect. And, you know, for some reason I thought that I'm the only odd person out. I'm the odd kid out in that. And I think until I came into college when I had access to internet is when I got to know that, oh, there is something called gay, there is something called homosexuality or, you know, guys can like guys and girls can like girls, all of that. So I think the word gay, I think I got to know only when I was in college. I was able to. So when I was one of the days when I was going back to my hostel rooms is when I kind of said that out loud to myself, Hey, Suresh, I think you're gay. You know, when I was able to say that to myself, I felt so relieved. I felt so nice about myself. Okay, so this is what it feels to be accepting of who you are or, you know, just understanding who you are. I think that was, you know, yeah, but I still didn't tell anybody about that because I was not sure because nobody spoke about it that time. Right, so everybody was talking about, oh, I have a girlfriend. Oh, the girls you see, I have a boyfriend. Oh, I don't like girls. I don't like boys. But they never said that they like the same sex, you know, with intimacy, with the, you know, with the sexual vibes. No, they were friendships, but there was nothing of this of the same sex. So I really wasn't sure where it was going. Well, if you accepted it within yourself, at least at that point, tell us about how you came out then. Wow. So after coming out to myself, I think during college again, I decided to come out to my best friend at then. And for a simple fact is he was quite popular in college and I wanted him to know for a fact is I wanted to be myself with him because, you know, there were a lot of times I was faking and you know, trying to tell him that oh, maybe I like this girl, you know, maybe things can happen and all of that but deep inside of you that's not happening. I just wanted to brush off, you know, those topics and conversations. One day I decided I'm going to come out to him. And I actually came out to him. I said, you know what, I'm gay. I, you know, this is who I am. I like guys and, you know, I don't know if you want to continue our friendship. It's absolutely fine if you kind of, you know, step away from this friendship. But I totally respect that. And I just walked off. I didn't wait for his reaction. And for the next couple of days I was, you know, avoiding him, not wanting to get into conversation because somewhere I felt a little, you know, bad, guilty, all of those feelings came like, you know, why did you have to save that out? And then one of the days he just barged in and he had a, he confronted me like, you know, what the hell is wrong with you? Why are you bringing our friendship in between this? You know, everybody has a type, right? So I as, you know, he was talking about himself that he likes girls who are on the heavier side. And he said that there are a lot of other guys who like girls who are probably thin or were slim, who have long hair, short hair, you know, I mean, everybody has, you know, a person that they really want to be with, right? So you have a person who's, you know, from the same sex. I don't understand that right now, but I'm fine with it because end of day everybody has, you know, their own choice. So never ever bring our friendship ever again. So, you know, when he said that, I think that was one of the most, I think important moments for me because that he was the first person that I really, really came out to after coming out to myself. So I think that really boosted my confidence, you know, from that first perspective. Yeah. How did it progress from there? Oh, it was crazy. I did come out to a couple more, but then it didn't go that well. But I still didn't get bothered that much. And I think as time progressed, I had to come out to my parents. Okay, so here's a little thing about India. I'm for sure everybody knows that in India marriages are predominantly done arranged and parents play a very important role in that. And for me, also, it kind of happened the same way. My parents were, you know, saying, all right, Suresh, it's time for you to settle down, you know, get married. You know, you need to take your family forward so you have kids and all of that. While I was telling them, you know what, I don't want to get married. It's not a thing for me. And all the things that my mom was saying, oh, you're shying away from your responsibility, Suresh. You cannot do that. You know, so I left it to them. I was still avoiding. And also in India, what happens is that we have something called horoscopes. You know, so horoscope matching has to happen. And even that time also the horoscopes were not matching. You know, so I was telling my mom, you know, like, hey, you know what, even God does not want me to get married. So why are you forcing me? Yeah, so in India, it kind of works. A lot of them actually have this, how do I say it's an alignment of your stars and all of that, which kind of comes in a paper. And based on that alignment, you know, you try and align yours with the girl that you want to get married to and see if it really is for the better. Hopefully there's no going to be issues and blah, blah, blah. And parents believe in that and put up with everybody in the culture. It's an Indian culture. So we believe in that. So that was not happening. And my mom was saying, no, Suresh, don't worry. You know, for every person, there is another person there in your life. So we have to search for that other person and the search continued. And finally they found a girl. And I was like, okay, all right, so it's time to have a discussion. By that time I knew about myself. I knew I was like very much into guys and I was like, you know, there's no way that I'm going to fall in love with a girl. I have a lot of friends who are girls, but nothing, you know, physically, right? It's only emotional connect and I can be the best friends and all of that, but nothing more. And I've made this conscious decision that I would never ever get married to a girl because I don't want to mess up her life for no fault of hers. Right. So when the time came, I told my parents that, hey, I'm gay and I don't want to get married to a girl because I'm not sexually attracted to a girl. But I have those attractions towards a guy. They flipped. They really didn't understand what I was trying to tell them. And it was a tough time. So, you know, there was a lot of anger, frustration and, you know, crying definitely. And I think, you know, a lot of things my parents took on themselves saying that what did we do wrong in our upbringing? Or the way we brought you up. Then why are you like this? What made you, you know, do like this? Did we do something in the past? Or, you know, they went back to their wrongdoings. They said, oh my God, did we do something wrong that is affecting you like this and all of that. So it was difficult. But I think I held my fort in the fact that I said, you know what, I'm not going to fall for pressure. I'm not going to fall for the emotional blackmail that's going to happen, you know, and say that I'm going to give it into marriage. So I had made myself clear. And I also told them that I would never, you know, leave them. I would never leave them and go away for this reason. But I also had a backup plan in the fact that if my parents had to throw me out, I reached out to my friends and I was ready with a bag. You're saying that if my parents are going to throw me out that I'm going to come over to your place and all that. But I think my parents don't hate me for who I am or my choices. I think they're more concerned about my future. If I'm not getting married, then what's going to happen to you in the future? Who's going to take care of you? Because for them, they are very much in that, you know, sphere of thought process that only a woman can take care of a man and she completes him, right? It doesn't go anywhere else or it doesn't go any other way. So for them to digest or even process that was a big thing. But I said, you know what? I'm going to be there. I'm going to be happy and I'm going to have a happy life. And I, you know, they still stay with me. So my parents live with me and I'm very much, you know, there and all of that. It's a process for them. And, you know, after that conversation that I had, a couple of three months, it was not that great. But I think they're slowly understanding. They've not completely understood. They still shy away from having those conversations. But they never forced me to get married again. So they said, you know what? Yeah, this is your life. But at the same time, we would love for you to get married. But what to do? You know, I kind of realized that there are hopes and dreams of me getting married have crashed. And they're still struggling with that. So I know that, you know, it's going to be an issue for them. But I'm going to be there be supportive and walk them through this process. So yeah, I mean, that's my, I would say coming out story to my parents. But yeah, how do I say? I mean, I've been fortunate enough to have parents who didn't kick me out or throw me out. And they struggle to understand, but they are there. They're supportive. They know quite a few things about me. And though as comfortable as it is for them, they're kind of letting me live my life. So I really appreciate them for that. Yeah. That's incredible strength. Yeah. Yeah, I know it's it's crushing them within, but they are, you know, at least letting me live my life. Right. So I think I need to respect that. I need to honor that in every possible way I can. Absolutely. But yeah, it's my understanding that Indian culture is conservative about homosexuality. Am I correct in that? I'm sorry, I didn't get the question now done. It's okay. It's my understanding that Indian society is very conservative regarding homosexuality. Yeah. How do you see that? I mean, again, as I said, you know, again, thanks to Britishers because before Britishers coming in, I think India was very, very inclusive of everybody. And homosexuality was their lesbians with their trans community was very much popular and very much there in the, you know, society as such. But even sex workers were also very much, you know, prominent. It was just that the after Britishers coming in things went way, you know, in with regarding to, I think gender, sexual, you know, as, as form of even sexual art or, you know, sexual itself, anything sexual was kind of put down. We are the land of Kamasutra. We invented sex and we told people how to have sex. But look at us now. But look at us now for us to even have a conversation on sex is considered a big, big taboo. You know, there is, you know, even if you see movies, kissing never happens. No, yes, yes, the kissing has gone a little bold. But before, if, if, you know, if a guy and a girl had to kiss, they would show that it's kissing, but then they will get something in between that like your two flowers. Yes, you know, so that's how, you know, sex was spoken about or talked about. It was never, you know, as a table of, you know, a conversation on the table. So it was always like, you know, between parents and parents do it, whatever they have to do does. And when the kid grows up and when they get married, they figure things out. You know, it's all about they will figure it out. And, yeah, I think with regard to homosexuality, that's how it really came in again because of section 377, you know, that being there for such a long time that kind of really, you know, brought in a lot of issues for us. And, you know, because the law was there, people said, oh, it's against the, you know, religion. They brought it even to the religious conversation saying that it is wrong. It is a sin. As you know, I mean, Christianity says it's a sin. And, you know, Islam says it's a sin. Even Hindus say it's a sin. But I think our, you know, our culture, Hindu culture, our mythologies everywhere. I mean, there was, I think gender fluidity was very common. We had the gods transitioning to, you know, from a male version to a female version. And, you know, princes or, you know, the prince were dragging up in some form, you know, or cross-dressing to escape certain, you know, rituals. And we spoke about trans community in a different form altogether. Our Indian mythology has so much of acceptance of, you know, various or, you know, the whole spectrum that somehow it got lost in years to come. So that's why it is still a phobia, you know, still you call it and, you know, it's not the right thing. It's not the right choice because society looks down upon it and it is not a good thing to do. So, yeah, we still struggle. But for the, for the international audience, would you please explain what is 377? Okay, so section 377, I will give you the exact statement of what it says. Just give me a quick moment. I'm going to pull that up. So they called it that anything a carnal intercourse against the order of nature is considered punishable, is considered as a punishable offence. So if you need to have sex, you need to do it only when you are planning to procreate. If you're not procreating, you cannot have sex. Or how do I say if you have any other form of sex, which is anal or oral is considered to be against the order of nature. Right, so carnal intercourse, which means you need to have a penis vagina intercourse that is called intercourse, which is not an order of against the order of nature. It is considered to be against the order of nature. And so, yeah, I mean, it is, it is a little crazy thing. And this was again, you know, Britishers really brought it in and they messed it up for us, you know. So I will read out the exact, you know, law which says whoever voluntary has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal shall be punished with imprisonment for life. Or with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to 10 years and shall be liable to fine. So that was the law. Wow. Yeah. So it was crazy and it was predominantly against used against the gay men and the transgender community. Now, lesbians were never a part of this because they are intercourse never involved penises, right? There was only vaginas, so they were never caught on it. And, and also the heterosexual, you know, all the men, the straight men enjoyed it because more the better. Right, instead of one woman, now you have two women who are having fun. So all the straight men used to enjoy lesbian porn more. Right, so it was never considered to be a taboo, but it was considered to be a, you know, a good thing. But when two men come into picture, they had issues and the trans community when they come in, that's an issue because there there was no penis vagina. There was more anal penis, you know, sex that was happening or there was oral sex that was happening. So, I mean, yeah, that that that law brought in a lot of issues with the community, especially the gay men. So the police used to bribe or used to go ahead and force them into bribery by you have to give them money. You know, there was a lot of harassment bullying in every possible form. So it was not easy. And because of that, and because of the stigma around the fact that if you're gay, you know, you really look down and you know, if you're staying with parents, then it's going to be an embarrassing situation for the parents. Right, so they always given for that whole bribery or that, you know, thing, because you cannot go back to the cops and say, you know, he was harassing me. He was asked why, you know, it's like, Oh, I was with another guy. Okay, so what are you doing with that guy? Oh, so where you kind of performing oral sex or were you giving a blowjob or were you fucking him or were you not? You know, all of those conversations used to come up and you know, people used to get, you know, really troubled because moment it goes home, you know how it is, it's going to be a very awkward situation. So, yeah, I mean, it is still an issue. It's still a huge issue, but I think with the law getting away. I think the conversation has really come in from various aspects in regards to trying to normalize the conversation that yes, we exist. And we are very much part of the society and you know, yeah, there's a lot of work that's been happening since, you know, September 6, 2018. So on, on Facebook, you're openly, yeah, how are you able to be openly gay on Facebook in your circumstances now? Oh, I came out in 2014. So that was four years before section 377 getting away. But I think, as I said, you know, if I have to go back and tell you there was this incident in childhood that I kind of went through. So, because of the bullying and the harassment that was happening, I decided to kill myself and not once but three times. I tried to kill myself three times and it was unsuccessful. But the third time something really stopped me. Something really stopped within me saying that Siresh, you cannot do this. This is not the right thing for you to do. There is something, you know, that you don't know right now, but there is something there for you, which is there in the future. At that point of time, I really didn't understand, but you know what that because that calling came in so prominent and it was very strong, I said, okay, I'm not going to do it. And I made a promise to myself that day, you know, no matter what happens, I am going to go ahead and fight it out. Whatever the situation comes in, I think I'm never going to think of ending my life and I'm going to fight it out and I'm going to battle out no matter what I'm going to march forward. So that's why if you remember I said, you know, my childhood, my schooling and my college was not that great, but I said I had to move on because I knew that I had to go past this and I need to figure that out. And I was able to, in the sense like, you know, that kind of kept me going on. And that encouraged me to, you know, identify myself, talk to my friends and, you know, come out to my parents because I kind of knew what it is. I know what it is to end my life. And I kind of, I keep telling this, you've kissed dead, so what's going, what more is going to scare you? Nothing. So go forward with that. Good point. Right, so yeah, so I mean, anybody comes to me and kind of talks to me in a different way, I can give it back to them. What are they going to do maximum? Yeah, kill me, all right, go ahead, but I would live my life the way I want to live, right? So that was very, you know, that was very strong in me. And I think after coming out to my parents, I felt this relief that I was not scared anymore, you know, because I was always worried about who's going to tell my parents that, you know, their son is gay. So now that that's over, that's behind me, I was like, you know what, there's no stopping back. So I actually came out on Facebook in a very different way. So after coming out to my parents, I decided I'm going to walk my first Pride March. And, you know, I did that. And I think the next day morning after the Pride, I got up with a very happy smile on my face. So the dream was very clear and very vivid. I was at the edge of a cliff, and I was looking down at people. And I was screaming out loud and saying, I'm gay, I'm happy, and this is who I am. And the people below are all the folks from school, from college, some of them from work as well. I was screaming back to me, saying that you go, Suresh, we love you, we're proud of you, and you know, and with that smile on my face, I woke up. And that's when I decided, you know what, I think the world needs to know now. And I opened my Facebook. That time I was a social media, you know, I was pretty much on social media all the time. And I opened and I did a life event on Facebook, you know, saying finally out of the coming out of the closet, out of the closet. So that was my headline and I kind of wrote a little note on that and I said, you know what, this is how I'm going to come out to everybody. Wow. And yeah, I think ever since that, you know, it has been, I mean, touch wood, I've been lucky, fortunate to have people around me who have been supportive and who have been there. I don't know how much is true because I go by people based on face value, if you're good to me, when we're having a conversation, I'm good to you. I don't care what you're talking behind my back because I think by that time I was way past it. You know, I defend that I know people are going to bitch about me. I know people are going to crib about me or do something. But for me, what I knew is I just need to go forward. Right. So with that intent, I was just moving forward. And I think my kind of life took a complete different amazing turn ever since I came out. Everything was going as an upward graph. Be it at work, be it with my advocacy about the community everywhere. So it was all, you know, the upward graphs. I was very happy about it. And my friends were very concerned. I would say that because I came out in a time when section 377 was still there. There were like more varied. Hey, Suresh, what's going to happen to you? You're kind of putting yourself out there, you know, on Facebook, on a social media platform where people can see you and know what you're doing and all of that. And I said, you know what? I'm tired of being scared. I think I'm done being scared of, you know, what are people going to think about me? I'm like, let them think any ways they're going to think. Yeah. Whether it's good, bad or ugly, they're going to think any which ways. So with that, why do I have to live my life in a very different way so I can live my life the way I want to. So with that is when I said, you know what, I'm going to go on because again, India is also a place where, you know, knocking anybody off is not a big, big thing. You know, if they just want to knock you off, you know, and the knock you off means, yeah, they can kill you or tip you off, right? So, I mean, that's not a big thing here, but I think I felt that, you know, even if that's going to happen, I want to make sure that I live my, you know, take my last breath as being my true self. That was my, you know, intent. And I said, you know, that's who I am. And that's why I want people to remember me that I was, you know, I was not fake. I was genuine. I was honest. And I was being myself. So, I mean, that was a kind of boldness that I went on with and that kind of, you know, it didn't rub people the wrong way, to be honest, I think I was very approachable. And I think, you know, the fact that I was not a brash person. I never was aggressive. I was the very, I used to collaborate a lot. I had people who are against the views. Also, I would say, all right, that's your view. That's absolutely fine. But can I live my life? You know, I'm not going to step into yours. You don't step into mine. Let's move forward. Right. So with that intent, I think I didn't rub off to people, but a lot of people got, you know, encouraged, they got motivated and all of that. So I felt I'm doing something right. You know, so yeah, that was me about being out and open there. Yeah. But how about professionally? Has it impacted you work wise? To be honest, again, there I was fortunate. I think my genuineness and my authenticity kind of really came through. I came out again. I came out to my manager and like, you know, again, it was a Facebook event. So I did have my friends and colleagues as there as well. I think they applauded me for who I was and for what I was doing. But I don't know what they spoke behind my back. Again, as I said, I was really not concerned about that. But anyone who came across to me spoke to me. They kind of just said good things about it. Right. So I didn't kind of face that sort of discrimination that a lot of people face. To be honest at workplace also, I initially for, you know, in my organization, I've been there with my organization for 16 years. But the first 10 years I was in the closet very much until I came out to my parents. But after that, I was very much, you know, honest and, you know, being there and I put my work front, right. The first priority was work and that is the reason out there, but I was also being myself. And that kind of really pushed and, you know, my productivity, my creativity, everything went completely authentic. Right. So I was no more hiding behind anything and all of that. So they could see that my work was getting much better. And surprisingly, I only got support. I was very, again, as I said, I'm very fortunate. You know, I would say yes, I am that privileged person as a privileged out gay man who had a good, you know, support from various people. And for me, it was more about how do I bring this out? How do I talk about this to people so that, you know, others get motivated. You know, be it the straight people or even people from the community who can get some confidence, some strength that they can just be themselves. Well, tell me a little bit about the gay scene in India. For example, gay bars, saunas, cruising areas. So cruising areas, there are a lot, you know, because that is the only way that people used to meet before. There were no bars before initially, you know, the initial days, it was the box, you know, like how it is there in San Francisco and all the, you know, the parks and all of that. So we had pretty much those cruising spots, you know, in India as well. Slowly steady, there were some bars which were very, you know, okay with the gay folks coming in. I think the lesbian community, there were not many lesbians out there. And even if they were there, we're very much, you know, hidden or not very out. But the gay men were up there and, you know, we went to bars and there was parties happening. And yeah, I mean, I think since the law being removed, I think there are some of these places which have been inclusive. But there is no specific prominent place. We don't have something like the Castro Street in India. We don't have something like that or, you know, like the gay bar, you know, the gay scene in New York or things like that. But then we have these small pockets, one, two bars here and there, which are supportive. And then we have one big hotel chain, which is again run by an out gay person. So he has opened up his hotel to all the gay community up there, which is called the Lullet group of hotels. It's called Lullet group of hotels. Okay. The Lullet, yeah. So they have these gay bars and they have this, you know, Don's bars and all of that, which are available. We don't have sonas. Yes, I would love for them to come down and see if they can happen. I visited them when I was traveling, but yeah, you don't have them here. And parties happen every weekend. There's a Saturday night party which keeps happening in almost all the big cities. The small towns are not yet there, but well known places. Yeah, you know, in Mumbai, Delhi, Kolkata, Chennai and then Bangalore and some of the IT places. And you know, the software technology cities are also being very out there. So yeah, we do have it's growing, but again, there is a little bit of reservation, you know, but we are changing. We're trying to work on that and tell them the bigger side as to, you know, we have the money to spend just, you know, accept us and just let us in and we will spend the money for you. Tell me about your title, Mr. Gay India. Tell me all about that. All right, so this has been starting off from 2014-2015 is when it kind of started off. It was more focused on community events in the sense like are you out? Are you proud? Are you of the legal age? And are you a gay man? So this was more specific towards gay men, right? As Mr. Gay World India, so age no bar, color no bar, you know, physical stats no bar. All you need to do is 18 plus out gay person and willing to do something for the community. So for me, I think I never knew about this until I really started, you know, doing a lot more work for the LGBT community. Within the corporate space and then, you know, taking it further, talking to a lot of organizations and, you know, while meeting a lot of people, this sort of thing came up. And I was like, by that time I was already in my, you know, 30s, mid 30s, I would say. Okay. And I was like, you know, should I really do it? But, you know, the childhood dream that I had, I always wanted to do something like this, you know, be a part of the, you know, ramp walk and wear these amazing clothes and walk fast. You know, for me, I always saw that on television. And somewhere down the line, I envisioned myself to be a part of it. Right. There was this, this was young boy, you know, young boys, you know, passion or the dream to walk the ramp and all of that because that was something that I really enjoyed. I did try to be a part of it. Again, I got rejected because of my color and my mannerisms and all the ways to walk and all. So I said, hey, can I do this now? And I told them I'm 37, you know, can I just be a part of it? Or they said, yeah, obviously, I mean, jump in if you have the internet. I was like, wow, okay, let's go with it. You know, but I think on a larger context, I wanted to see how I can reach out beyond corporate space because this opportunity gives me, you know, an opportunity for me to go to various other sections of the society, be it colleges, be it schools, be it to even, you know, grassroot level conversations. And I think that really fueled, and I wanted to also break some stereotypes. Firstly, at the age of 37, you can still dream, you know, because in India, once you become 30, it's like, you're almost half dead. You know, that's how it is. Like, you know, ageism is again something which is very prominent in India because, again, it's a very heteronormative society, right? By the age of 30, most of the guys and girls, girls are getting married even faster. But for guys, 30 is, you know, the age when they get married, they settle down, you know, plus or minus two years. So between 28 and 32, a guy's married off, right? So then they say, Oh, you've moved into the next phase of your life, which is a family life, right? So then you have your other responsibility. But as a single man, you, you know, 30 plus is considered like, Oh, my God. So with that stereotype coming in there, I wanted to break it that you can't really do what you want to do. And for gay men, it was even more difficult because finding partners was a big thing. Now, if you don't have a partner, oh, you're getting old, oh, who am I going to find? What are you going to do in your life? You're going to be all alone. Now, at that point of time, also, I wanted to kind of tell people, yes, you can go beyond that, you know, you can do your dreams. Because by that time, I had traveled abroad for a few places and I was able to, you know, figure things out. It's not that a bigger deal to be 35, 36, I think that's a ripe age or a good age. You know, where you have some of, I mean, where you have, you know, your senses and you probably have a flow as where you want to look at your life. But a lot of them here were really not sure. So I said, can I break that stereotype? And as a brown ass man, can I be a part of it and break that stereotype? Because, as I said, being fair is considered for everything, anything, you know, being fair is good. I want to break that. And being an IT professional, this is not something that a regular IT person would want to be a part of. And then being a person who's bald, you know, so again, having hair is something very important and you don't have hair. You start using hair, then you're, you know, there are a lot of these, you know, small little cultural issues which kind of become a big problem for men. And then the other thing is about, we have this differentiation between North India and South India. So a lot of people from South really don't do this. It's mostly people from North. So I wanted to break that stereotype as well. So I want to just break stereotypes and bring this conversation that we can really do something as well there. So with that intent, I went and I wouldn't say that I didn't want to win. I always wanted to win. But I said, I'm going to give my best. Whatever happens, I'm going to have a good time because I'm going to go meet people, go to meet some amazing panelists, amazing judges and learn from them. And I won. And I won that. And I think when I got the, you know, prize when they gave me the trophy, I just went back to the time when I was in childhood, which I, you know, spoke about that purpose in life. What is that purpose in life that you have. I was able to see that purpose in life then when I was handed over that prize of winning Mr. Gay India. I knew I had to do something for the community because I think all the things that happened in my life from that moment when I try to kill myself. And that I won the title. I knew the whole process of building and, you know, the way I was getting molded by I think the universe or the forces of the universe knew or pushed me in that direction. And I was able to see the jigsaw puzzle pieces very clearly then. So, you know, I was a trainer. I am a trainer. So, and, you know, I wanted to make sure that I speak good, you know, languages, at least English. I used to speak well. I used to make myself clear. And I used to make myself confident, you know, so all of that lost thing as that young boy that I had, you know, given up on life to the time that I had kind of won the title. I knew what my purpose in life was. So I think that was my aha moment. Like, yes, now you know what you need to do. So I never shy away from having conversations with people I never shy away to go to, you know, organizations or events and do this because I know this is what I need to do. I have the privilege, you know, as, you know, from a friend who has been supportive to a parents who are kind of accepting to an organization which is supportive friends who are also very more I mean my colleagues are very supportive with that position privilege and opportunity can I do a lot more for the community. You know, I think that was my bigger intent and during that time and by that time I was already in a relationship. And my partner was very supportive. You know, with that being said with all the good things that I had my back and I kind of go reach out to the masses, tell them yes there is a possibility at 37 you can win a title at 35 you can have a boyfriend. You know, you can have a partner you can do things that you really want to do. Wow. You know, so I was like, wow, okay, let's do this let's go on and I got opportunities to speak at various, you know, places in India and abroad as well. You know, I mean, before the Mr. Gay World India title also I did do as from a workplace perspective. But I think even after that also I did get opportunity for me it's all about talking, you know, if I'm outside India I talk about what's happening in India. And when I'm within India I talk about these grassroots level issues where people, the heterosexual people have the opportunity to bring that change. So can I influence them, can I touch that chord, which you know can trigger them to, you know, become a supporter and ally for the community, I was doing that. I kind of knew that, that Mr. Gay World India had a purpose and now I know what that is. Where is the contest held? Mumbai. Okay, is it? Yes, it is every year, the last week of January, which culminates most of the times into the Pride March. So the winner of Mr. Gay India, he walks the Pride March in Mumbai. Oh, I didn't know there was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Yeah, it has been happening. So, oh, that's fascinating. So are there other organizations in India that support gay people? There are a lot of, you know, community based organizations, which are very much there. So every, you know, state has a lot of these CBOs, they call it so community based organizations, CBOs, or NGOs, you know, nonprofit organizations. So you have the CBOs and NGOs which work on grassroot level issues, be it for LGBTQ issues on a high level, it could be people living with HIV awareness, then, you know, for sex worker communities as well. You know, in the LGBT community also it's more for the transgender community because the trans community India is really, really huge and in the sense it does a lot of work because trans community in India is more prominent and than the lesbians and the gay community because they were out there all the time. I think even when, you know, the government of India recognized the trans community as the as the agenda though it is not appropriate but at least they gave them that recognition so a government, you know, forms, all the official forms by the government have male, female and others. So the others are to be inclusive of the transgender community, yes. But what about other aspects of the community? You've mentioned of course gay, lesbian, trans. Do you have a kinky community, other groups? Alright, so in with regards to BDSM or the king community or the king culture, it's very pocketed and it's very, very secretive because again, sex is a taboo. So with this kind of, you know, excess pleasure or extra pleasure is considered even more bad. Right, so I mean I was from a young age again thanks to porn. I got this opportunity to kind of, you know, look at leather so and kink and all of that. And I was never sure where does it really happen or what happens and blah blah because India there was nothing of this sort happening. And even if it used to happen, it used to happen among the high class society people. Right, so for me, my first experience I would say was when I was in the US in San Francisco. Yeah, and I was fortunate enough to attend the Folsom Street Fair. Yeah, and I think that kind of really, you know, gave me the opportunity to explore in the sense to understand, learn and get to know what it is all about. See, yes, Folsom was there, but even before that I did travel and I did come to US before. I did learn from other people as well. I, there was the, you know, the saunas, the bars, you know, you had the bear bars, the twink bars, the regular bars and all of that. So I was just learning all of that then. But Folsom took me to another level and I kind of knew then I kind of knew, you know, what am I taste, what do I like, what is that I don't like, what excites me. And for me, I wish we can really bring that I've been trying to see if any, are there any people who are from the leather community here who are interested genuinely. But there are not many up there who are quite open and, you know, talking about this quite openly, but I'm trying to, you know, see and build and connect, but yeah, there's not much happening, you know, but I'd love to because I think we are quite pinky. It's just that I wish on the right way. You know, I think it's all about getting to know the right process and the right things and the right ways and how you can go about and enhance your pleasure. So yeah. Coming back a little more serious now. There's a lot, unfortunately, there's a lot of violence toward transgender people. How is that in India? Sorry. I just went a little off the network, I guess. Can you hear me now, Doug? Yes, I can. So the question was, okay, sorry. Yeah, can you repeat your question? There's, unfortunately, there's a lot of violence toward transgendered people in many places. How is the situation in India? It is not easy, I would say, but having said that, it is not that difficult as well, I would say. I may be, you know, I'm not sure if I'm going to get beaten up for this or whatever saying the wrong thing, but you know, I think the trans community in India is by large a very strong community by itself. You know, so we call them the hijra community. The hijra community is quite prominent in India and everybody knows about them. With that being said, they have their own foothold in places. Yes, there is abuse by the police, there is abuse by the general public also, but I think it doesn't get that violent and extreme like how much we hear in the US and in Europe a lot more. And, you know, because from centuries and centuries, we know that there is a transgender community, the hijra community is very well known to everyone. And they have their ways of surviving is through begging on the streets or through sex work, right? So with that being said, they are very known or very much known in the community and in the society. It is just that they're not integrated into the society. Now, I know how the West or in the US, you know, though the Native Americans did have this as the third spirit or the second two-spirited people, but somehow it got lost. And, you know, they never considered the transgender community to be. They still think that it is a new thing, but it is not. It has been there. It is just that they don't acknowledge it. And I think the awareness factor for the trans community in the West is a lot more less, and that's why it becomes a little more violent. And also the other day I was watching this show on Netflix. I don't remember the name. It was about the transgender community and the visibility that they were having. I think, damn it, it was a very nice one. Give me a minute. I'm going to pull that name out and tell you because I am telling everybody about this that you need to go watch that show. It was an eye-opener because I think the way even media was portraying the trans community was not in the right way. So I think that's when people are thinking the trans people are psychopaths or serial killers because that's how they were going about with that. So I will quickly share that name, if you don't mind, because I put that in my list of watching as well. And I'm recommending that to everyone possible. Saying that you need to go watch that. Okay, for some reason I'm not getting that now. It's called contagious or something like that. Okay, if I don't get it now while we talk, disclosure, yes. Disclosure? Disclosure. Okay. Yeah, it's a documentary series which was just released a couple of, I think a week back. So it is a must-watch. It is about all the trans community which have a representation and the struggles that they have gone through in the form of Bollywood, in the form of Hollywood, in the form of regular awareness. So I kind of realized that and then I was thinking about, you know, but in India, how it is, yes, the trans community are very well known. They're always seen anywhere. Yes, they have looked down upon the, you know, they've put it in a very derogatory way, but the existence is not lost. They're very much prominent. I think in India for some of the gay rights movements or the LGBT movements, they are the first ones to come out there and fight for it. Good. You know, yeah. So I think the trans community, I think across the globe have been the ones who've been very vocal and who have kind of contributed a lot towards the LGBT movement in their specific countries as well. I think even the same in the US, right? It was the trans people who kind of came out. I mean, the whole Stonewall incident was because of the trans people out there and the police brutality that kind of really came in. Even in India, if you see anywhere that you see, you know, even during the Pride marches, you would see a lot of the transgender community people coming out there celebrating being themselves while the other sections of the community also being there. But they are there out in the front coming out and doing the work as well because they are somewhere associated to the, how do I say, they're associated to the nonprofits and the CBOs as well. So they kind of really do have that whole conversation going on there. What advice can you give to people in India who want to come out? An advice, I think first and foremost, accept yourself for who you are, come out to yourself first, and then I would say don't give up or don't give in to family pressure. I know it is very easy and it's very prominent. Don't give in, but at the same time, be independent financially as well so that if something does not go right, then you need to take off and find your way to mend. And even if you're not able to, I think there are a lot of organizations and a lot of help that one can find now these days through the social media and all of that, that we can try and help you out. So there is a way to live your authentic life, just be patient and find the right time because a lot of environments are not very good, especially during COVID situation is really horrible. A lot of people are staying in very homophobic environments. So don't give up, hang in there. Once situation gets better, take a call and do the right thing. What is the biggest misconception about you? Can you repeat that question again Doug? Sorry, I think there were some internet issues. What is the biggest misconception about you? Misconception. I think I'm too arrogant, non approachable, things very high of himself. I think that's the misconception people have. And yeah, I mean, that's what I've heard. People think I have attitude and yeah, yeah, all of that. Well, Suresh, I would like to thank you very much for this amazing interview. Thank you. Again, a pleasure being acquainted with you. And I hope I will meet you in person sometime, either in Europe or in India or here in the US.