 Okay, we are live Here to chat about the books that I've chosen for book war that I did choose her book born to read in June Unfortunately, we have some technical difficulties with internet, but bear with us and Yeah, my whole county's internet is down so I Feel like I feel personally attacked by your county. I feel like Maybe they're trying to protect you. Did you ever think of that or or that either way it's suspicious It's suspicious as a personal attack either way against you or me taking it personally So yeah, well at least I mean for me and I hope for everybody I can hear book born Perfectly well, it's just like the image is a little bit iffy here and there So like the important thing is the words we're all readers here So like think of it as a book born's favorite thing an audio book A podcast a podcast So hello everyone. Hello. Hello. Hello. Um And yeah, so what we did Yesterday, well, we didn't actually like go because I think last year We said all the books non-spoiler and then went back and talked spoilers But yesterday we didn't really talk spoilers at all. I don't know that it like was really necessary So I feel like you need to spoil to talk about what you disliked Because it was just like nothing I feel like for the most part I won't need to spoil except for one book Okay, so we'll keep a non-spoiler for all of them and then at the end if any of them We need to like circle back to to like be like, okay. So the spoilery thing was this so Is that does that work for everyone? Yay, I'll make sure to say my affirmations out loud in case you can't see me Yeah, don't rely on facial expressions or sign language or Alrighty, well, I don't know what order we should go in. Um, you choose I chose last night. I was gonna say last night we opened with The fore sure we know how the other one feels about it and is non-fiction So let's do the fore sure we know how the other one feels about it non-fiction, which was view from the chief seat the chief seats by neil Also, like I didn't know there'd be internet issues. So I'm glad I brought over all the books so that I could hold them up Hey, can you currently see me? Um, it's like stuttering So there's like a lovely still of you I have um A lot of tabs a lot of colored tabs in the book Uh, and I never mark a book. So, you know You hated it I hated it. Uh, no, I love this book. Um, I will say of like, uh, Short story or essay collections I've read because I had just recently read Terry Pratchett's I do feel like Damon includes some like really random ones in here Like every once in a while I'd be like, I literally can't relate to anything that's in here Like I don't know what you're talking about who you're talking about why but other than that like, um Yeah, I mean, he's just so I mean I already kind of told you this but he's just so eloquent and Has so many it says so many things that I think but just 800 times better So like he talks about Defending fantasy as a genre and he talks about what makes an adult novel except he does it so perfectly like all the time And I just feel like it's one of those books like you're gonna gain something out of it even if you're like Not a game and fan necessarily of his works. I feel like Yeah, because like um, I think if uh, someone's not a fan of his work, um It would probably be I mean, okay, maybe you don't like his style of writing whatsoever in which case you're just wrong And that's fine. But um, like if you're not into like the store the types of stories that he likes to tell That has the kind of like not a lot of bearing on his nonfiction because his nonfiction is like hey like Fiction is important and sci-fi is important And like fantasy is important and like you don't have to like his particular like Flavor of writing those types of stories to be like heck. Yeah, dude. Like it is important. I mean, hey your stories But like yeah, you're right You're right um Yeah, I was like I wrote some things down um First of all his parents like gayman's parents I poor zack like I had to have like this whole conversation about gayman and his parents a different time You know, I thought that a little bit like so gayman talks about how his parents he would convince his parents during the summer When they would just go to work and leave him home alone at eight years old. Let's be clear I haven't eight year olds And the police would be called on me now But they and that he would ask them to drop him off at the library and he would just be at the library all day by himself No food sometimes if he like didn't bring food for himself and It's like Okay, so so i'm trying to work um view from the cheap seats Uh, let's water it up again. Um Okay, so this is disturbing, but i'm like at a different time But then we get more stories like the time they dropped him off at school because they didn't realize it was a school holiday So he had to stay there with no one at school all by himself all day Or the time where they forgot about him and didn't pick him up And so he hung out with the groundskeeper until 10 p.m At night like I cannot fathom forgetting about where my child is until 10 p.m at night Like I mean the fact that like his most autobiographical fiction is ocean at the end of the lane is like Yeah Checks out Yeah, well, and then he's talking about like His inspiration for choraline and he's like What if I came home one day and my parents weren't home and they had just moved away without telling me I mean, I didn't think that would happen But it could and I was like no normal child is like what if I came home someday my parents moved away Anyway, I was this is why This is why subsequent generations won't have brilliant authors because you have to neglect your children And leave them at libraries on a unsupervised to get brilliance like Neil gaming Just I think that's literally my first note is just Neil Gaiman's parents. Like I was just like not okay um, but yeah, you're right. I think that's why He is the way he is so you know what it worked out um, I want to look at some of these here because Oh, this first one is actually the second point I want to talk about. Um, I really loved His discussion on children reading. It's something that's like very relevant in my life and He said I don't think there's such a thing as a bad book for children Every now and again, it becomes fashionable among adults point at a subset of children's book A genre and declare them bad books books that children should be stopped from reading People who are declared a bad author Um, and he says it's touch of snobbery and it's foolishness. There is no bad author for children and he kind of goes on to like say Uh, who cares if they're reading trash? Who cares if like it doesn't matter if like the kid is reading and they're enjoying it Then just let it go and then he continues on to also be like stop worrying so much The appropriateness level because kids were really good at deciding what's appropriate for them Because he's like an adult book will bore them and kids hate being bored So like they'll be done. He's like, yeah, I did read stuff. I probably shouldn't have read But ultimately it works out and this has given me like a lot less stress about what my son is reading Like I'm like taking it to heart Like okay when he's reading the dumb graphic novels that I don't like or when he's reading something I'm worried he's too adult Neil Gaiman told me it was going to be okay So I'm just Neil Gaiman says it's okay. You can trust him because he was abandoned at libraries as a child and he turned out okay Yeah, um, so a lot of people are talking about like walking home That there's not like people kids walk home is so we live in a neighborhood where the school is in the neighborhood Young kids are walking home alone all the time That is so different than what Neil Gaiman is describing. I'm not talking about not giving your kids independence I'm talking about like abandoning your children very different. If a kid knows they are supposed to walk home from school Yeah, like that's very normal Like I hate how unnormalized it is to let kids bike around and like walk very different You gotta read it before you judge what I'm saying. It wasn't right I mean, yeah, like the whole being dropped off at school on a day. The school wasn't in session at all and you're just like okay Yeah, you can see why Although interestingly, I feel like so like um, like as you mentioned core line and that Neil Gaiman's inspiration for core line was a little bit based on his own kind of Not the worst but not the best parents and parenting and home life as a kid um, but that being said, um amazingly the parents in the movie core line are worse like way worse than the parents in The book core line and the parents in the book core line are like not great But like there's a sense at least to me In core line the book where like it's partly that the parents aren't like super engaged with her and like that's kind of the problem But it's also that like kids kind of blow things out of proportion So to a kid it's like if you're not paying attention to me right this second You've abandoned me and you hate me and you don't care about me and that like core line is a little bit Like it's like a combination of like they're not being very attentive But she's also her expectations are not realistic And so then it's like a realization of like look your parents do care about you Like even if they can't stop what they're doing constantly to like cater to whatever you want to do Yeah, and I don't know quite yet. We're only like 30 pages under core line. So I'll have to pass judgment later Yeah, I mean everything he said, I don't know. I've marked too much stuff to like talk about it all Didn't it make you just like want to read all the authors that he gushes about be like that sounds fantastic I don't that sounds great. Sure sign me up It made me want to read comics, but I'm not necessarily like drawn to comics and I was like, oh, you're so passionate about this That I kind of want to go read it I mean that's part of the reason why I'm like reading core line And I read fortunately the milk because the way he talks about why he wrote those is literally so fascinating That I immediately was like I got to go out and read it. Um, and actually what he said about fortunately the milk was He said so his whole thing isn't exactly how I feel about what makes an adult book adults Because he talked about like There's all these stupid things people say and it's not that he's like it's not swearing in sex and it's not the age of your characters It's the content and that's why he wrote fortunately the milk It's he wanted to prove he could write a children's book where it's about the dad and not about the children Which he does a great job at it's fabulous five stars illustrated to look like Neil Gaiman Yeah, so Yeah, it's funny because you said that I was like, yeah, I can kind of see it because I had the American version Not realizing you had given it to me and then I opened it. I was like, oh, no, it's like actually Neil Gaiman Like it's literally like that's not spending. It's just like it is Neil um but and it interests me because I'm currently reading a book right now where Actually, most of the viewpoint characters are quite young and no one would say this book is Not an adult book. It is like very clearly an adult book And so I just really loved what we had to say about that because that's how I feel he just said it better Yeah Yeah, that's I feel like with a lot of what Neil gave even in his fiction That's why I always say that like even if the story he's telling isn't a story that like I'm particularly like interested in or enamored by I always love his writing and a lot of it is because of that because like he'll like Have these phrases or these observations that are within the story that he's telling It'll be just like this this like deceptively simple sentence that it just like hits at something so like specific and true That you're like I don't know how you just did that but like I know exactly what you're talking about I don't know exactly what you're describing and I know exactly the feeling that you're trying to evoke and it's just like I don't know how he's just like so keyed in to like life truth all the time But I always tell Zach like he gets it like and this is also one thing that Reading almost back to back like his and Terry Pratchett's essays I was like this is why they were so good of friends They were two people who got it and like they go about it different ways But ultimately the core is the same like they just they get it um And so like some other things and I won't go through all of them like I really like what do you have to say about like Going back and revisiting your childhood authors and realizing that Maybe you don't agree with those opinions anymore But you still love them because he kind of had that with Narnia about he had like really good things to say about that um What else um, oh, this is a good question. What is a good first gaming book? What would you say lana? I know my pick What's your pick? Well, I don't know So I'd either say ocean at the end of the lane Because it's short and I feel like it has a lot of wide appeal like that's the book. I know the most people really like Or if you like weird stuff american gods Because it's my favorite Yeah, because like I tend to say not american gods because it's so weird And it's so long and it's so like strange and meandering and like if you don't already know what neil game is about And you're not already into it. It's like a kind of a big ask and most of his books American gods what made me like neil game in counterpoint Yeah, but like it's also like most of his books are like much much much much shorter He tends to write short fiction and short novels and short novellas and american gods is this like massive tome That it's just like this is like not actually like his deal usually like if you want an example of like What his writing is like like that's american gods isn't a particularly good example Even though it's kind of like every kind of writing he's ever done all mushed into one book So it's just like if that like if you're like down for the challenge And you're like sure let's like really start with game and then okay They can start with american gods, but it's just like it's a lot to Start with so like if you're kind of just like i don't know maybe i'll give him a try If that's like what you're going in to game and with and like don't start with american gods If you're like i might try him because you kind of have to like commit to this like insane massive project and be It's so ocean at the end of the lane a lot of people also say never wear but me and liana both Don't love never wear so we're not going to tell you to start that way In fact, never wear is what made me not read game in for like six or seven years And now here we are in my game in renaissance Well, because like never wear was also written for television originally and then made into a book and i think it shows Like i think it feels really like episodic and it feels very like Oh, this was written because this would be a cool scene in a tv show. That's why this is here Not because like narrative is like And i was gonna say i haven't read coreline But actually his young fiction is also a good place to start because graveyard book I really like i mean my two favorites are ocean at the end of the lane and graveyard book So like either of those is a good place to start i think but yeah, he just has a great Is a really great example of those books that are like Yes, they are middle grade but also adults And there are layers to it. Um, because i just read that to my son. Um, also i'm surprised by how many people don't know this So fyi for anyone considering graveyard book It is a retelling of the jungle book like that is the project of it That's why it's called the graveyard book like the jungle book and instead of a boy being raised by animals in a jungle It is a boy being raised by ghosts and goblins and ghouls in a graveyard And so like the file it feels like this like a vignette structure the way the jungle book does And like not i'm not everything is like a one-to-one, but a lot of like the ghosty characters You're like, oh, you're kind of meant to be like Bagheera you're kind of meant to be blue Um, not like exactly, but like that's like what the project of graveyard book is except like scarier than jungle book In different ways. I mean i don't know i haven't read jungle books So like i said the manjack is like i'm an adult just like with coralline. I'm like i'm an adult But the manjack in graveyard book is like kind of terrifying Yeah, it was it was a little it was a lot um Yeah, so a couple other things i mean i could go on and on but i loved his good comics and tulips a speech Yeah, i'm sandman if you're into comics obviously like Yeah, i didn't love sandman personally, but i'm also like not a super comic person um Yeah, his think about good comics and tulips a speech um The afterward to that is just so Sassy when he's like i gave the speech and no one liked it and then i was right so Um, i won't spoil it. I want people to read it. So good like such a good speech And yeah, i was just like yeah, which is was a pity because a year later The world of comics entered a recession. I didn't want to be right, but i was Yeah, you tell him gay man Which is funny because like gay men is also i feel like pretty unflappable and like kind of just chill about everything All the time even something he's passionate about which is weird because i'm like, oh he's so passionate about literature But gay men being passionate about something isn't like Like really really intense. It's like still a very chill like this is important And you should also agree that it's important And you're like I would be shocked if gay men met someone that he couldn't find something to like about Like i feel like you'd have to be a pretty boring terrible person For gay men not to find you interesting because he finds everything interesting Which is why i think his fiction is so interesting like it helped me understand Yeah, geez is her internet always bad during these no It's just that i never do live shows and i've done four in the last two weeks when our whole county's internet is down So like i've never had an internet problem But now i've suddenly decided to do lives again So you're the one being personally attacked not me by your internet situation They're telling me not to do lives anymore. No one wants to hear me. So great. Um Before i spend a whole 30 hours on this book Um also him being like a mentor to susannah clark Like it's full circle. I did love what he said about because he said about jonathan strange Was like he loved it so much. He was worried it was a book nobody else would get And so the fact that it like won awards and people understood it. He was like so happy And that's i thought it was funny because that's how i felt about piranesi Like when i read piranesi, i was like, oh no What if nobody gets it but then everyone got it and it was great and everyone loves it, you know um, but i'm like I feel like people like i feel like he could be equally afraid Which i don't feel that he is that people won't get his books But i guess he feels if it's someone else's work, he's like, i know that you're brilliant And i'm able to see it see what i see but with his own books He's like i write stuff and for some reason people pay me for it. So like You know, so he's never like will people understand my brilliance? Will they understand what i'm trying to do? He's like i wrote a thing. I think it's cool If you want to pay me for it, that's awesome I have to charm because he is so naturally like very thoughtful and articulate and deep But then like his short stories are like i wanted to write a doctor who episode And i wanted to write about Sherlock Holmes like he's just so unserious So unpretentious What's really he's like really serious about how important fantasy and the speculative fiction is like as a Thing but about his own personal work. He's not serious at all And like that's what's amazing about because he'll like passionately defend like the profound importance of like speculative fiction But like his books, he's like, i don't know people can read them for some reason Yeah um The fact that there's a picture of him staring at someone's dress on the red carpet hilarious 10 out of 10 a story um You know, he talks about making good art whether or not people like it Yeah, the make good art speech I think is published also like separately individually and it's like like you can buy that speech I think it's illustrated as well Um, I had already read a slip of the keyboards introduction because I had read that book already But I do recommend to people like don't skip that introduction. It's so excellent and I do love I think he ends it with that. Yeah, so he he ends the book with that um And I really like that Um, and his little edition was really sad the book ends with I miss my friend Yeah, so Sad, I mean reading view from the chain suits. I remember it was like the most like uplifting and motivating experience But also the amount of times that I was tearing up was also Frequent, so it's just like this like emotional roller coaster of like yes reading. Yes writing. Yes speculative fiction. Oh, I'm I'm crying now Oh, no, I'm crying, but I'm still really like motivated Yeah, it was um, I just I highly recommend like I know like I loved it But it's just like a book I recommend to a lot of people especially if like You love fantasy because there's just so much in it. Um, that's really interesting I'm like, yeah, maybe occasionally you'll find someone you don't care about and it's like a book of essay So you could get an essay But I would say other than like one or two even essays where I didn't know what he was talking about There was always something Like interesting or profound. I felt like in all of them So it made me want to know what he was talking about because I'm like, I don't know this author that you're talking about But now I feel like I really should because that sounds you're so passionate about it right now that it's like infectious Yes, I think that what I'm gonna do is I really want to go read the comic bones Because he just like kept going on about it and it was weird because my kids have a couple of bones comics I thought they were kids comics. I didn't realize it started as an adult comic And then got kind of like spun off so He did convince me to go and give that comic a try But it's just because going back to what you said earlier about him saying, you know, um that like there's no like To not be like so guarded about what kids are going to be picking up and like what books kids are reading Like kids know what they're interested in whatever it's funny because like he did a while ago Because whenever he like is passing by a bookstore I shouldn't say whenever but he'll often like stop by and be like, do you have any of my books? I'll sign whatever you have just like as he passes by and he had gone to a bookstore And done this again But in this bookstore because he does write a lot of children's literature They had put all of gayman's books in the children's section And so he tweeted he tweeted don't let your child read ocean at the end of the lane. No good can come Yes Okay, but who's this bookstore or not like you're just like did you Like American gods look like a kid's book to you I mean, yeah, and who American gods, man, there are some scenes in American gods That I do not want my children reading whatever gayman says Fortunately, it's like a big adult town that by the time it gets to a scene like that they would have given up They would have given up but i'm like, I don't understand what's happening Well, I think it's it's in the chief seats too where that he talks about like his daughter liking goose bumps And he's like, oh if you like goose bumps that boy, do I have a great book for you? And he gives her carry by steven king and utterly traumatizes her I love that story Um, which is funny because my son loves rl stein as well And so we're reading choraline and I feel like that's the more appropriate. I did tell parker I was like look this book they thought was too scary So, um Yeah, he's excited about that. He wants to be scared. So Anyway, yeah, I think choraline's pretty pretty scary I uh, it'll be interesting. I did love his little response His description of choraline was like They didn't know where to put it and so the publisher said, okay, I'll read it to my two kids And then we'll decide and her kids loved it. So she's like, oh, I guess this is the book I thought it was too scary So they published it and then later the daughter told them when she was older like no that book terrified me But I kind of wanted to know what happened. So that's why I kept reading And it was just like, I don't know His whole those stories are just like so interesting about how like adults versus children and how we like experience media Well, it's also reminiscent of like how Harry Potter got published because like it was because the publisher or the editor Like their kid was reading the manuscript of Harry Potter and were like, I want more. I want this is great. I want this And they're like, oh, my kid really likes it. So I guess we should publish it So like choraline is similar and that like the kid is that like, yes, this is ask the ask the audience Like we want this more of this, please Yeah, and he has that whole thing that's everyone to say is true is like kids Know what's good and adults don't always know what's good for kids so like Sometimes that's why I can get very frustrated At when adults critique media in certain ways and I'm like, well this Media is meant for children and not because that media should be bad. So here's a per example. Do you like studio Ghibli? Ghibli. Um, I haven't seen like a ton of studio. Is it Ghibli or Ghibli Ghibli? Oh my gosh I have no idea. Why would you ever ask me about how to pronounce something? But I just watched my neighbor Totoro for the first time. I've seen spirited away. I've seen Howl's moving castle and I've seen Ponyo I think that's it. So I've only seen howl's moving castle and that was like when I was 15 And I finally was like look I need to deal with this and I heard it's a good Kids movie. So my family we watched my neighbor Totoro Totoro, whatever and um I loved this movie my kids love this movie It's especially great because my daughter is scared of everything and this movie is like the gentlest nicest like Whatever, so I was I don't I was just looking up reviews about it And like this adult is complaining that it doesn't have bite That's too happy like that the world is too happy and these children's and like kids need to Know about the reality of the world and this annoyed me so much Like can't my four-year-old just watch a happy slow movie about two sisters who are cute And their mom is sick. It's not like the hat, you know And and I just think sometimes like adults want all media to be for them And it's just like not all media is made for you Well, I would I mean I would get it Kind of if it was like a person criticizing like a massive trend where it seemed like every movie that was coming out for kids Was this like happy sweet fluffy thing like my neighbor Totoro? And if you were like, okay, these are like individually good films But like we need to not constantly just have fluff for children. We should challenge them a little bit I'd be like, yeah, I'm on board for that as an argument And I think you know Neil Gaiman would as well But it's like an individual film like doesn't have to be all things to all people at all times Like you can have this one be like this nice piece of like fluffy kindness to like counterbalance to like darker ones Well, there is like and there is like drama in it because like They worried the mom might die and it's like whatever but it is okay here So one of my other favorite people on this planet. Well, no longer on this planet was is fred rogers his like Known as mr. Rogers for mr. Rogers neighborhood, uh his like um If you haven't watched like the clips of him talking to the government about why Um, they need to keep like his show and the shows like it It's a great watch highly recommend it But what he talks about in there is like really small children. They don't need like Guns and superheroes and all of this intense action because their own emotions are like the are huge problems to them Like just the everyday things they have to deal with Are already like super conflicting and I feel like my neighbor totoro is just like the embodiment of that Like it's about your sister yelling at you when you're sad and it's about like just like the actual Day-to-day stuff that kids have to deal with and I just hate when adults can't see that like for a child That is the big stuff Because hopefully they're not dealing with like the adult drama. Anyway, this is like we've gone really far off track But not really. We're still talking. I think gay men would condone everything that's being discussed here Damon's right. That's all I'm gonna say. He has a lot of good stuff to say. Read the book Oh, yes, fantasy to watch public access. That's what it was His speech is so good like highly recommend watching it. It it really again another thing that is like actually changed my parenting Uh watching that speech and like dealing with your kids emotions and stuff. Anyway, mr. Rogers and neil gayman Are like no writing. They're like parenting nice And um, yeah gayman is technically above ever crumby in my estimation. So Gasp Anyway, so yeah, um, I'm so relieved that you liked That's a shock. You were expecting me to hate it I would be I would have been so completely Floored if you would have been like I like gayman, but that wasn't it I would have been like, I don't know how we can ever recover from this It would just be so weird like I was like, I don't like what anything good to say Yeah, I mean you already in fairness This was the one that leon and I had already talked about because I was like, I just want to talk to you while this is happening And you know, I'm gonna like it. So this isn't a surprise. Well, it's like when I read it like a year ago I was like, I know what I'm picking for you for next year Don't read it before that I'm picking it for you um What are we doing next? Well, maybe a good segue from gayman Is blood in the mist since he blurbed it I was thinking that so let in the mist is blurbed by gayman. Um, this is let in the mist by hope morelle's Morelle or merleys merleys Um, this book was written. I just I'm finding all of my bookmarks still stuck in here. I was wondering where all those were going um So the important thing about this is it was written in 1926 Yeah, so it's pre pre tolking pre tolking. Yes, um And gayman and his book basically said like he doesn't understand why this is like such a forgotten piece of fantasy um And it also susanna clark has listed as an inspiration for her Um, so I really enjoyed this. I think I'd give it like a four or 4.5 I think it was like a 4.5 is where I I settled. I really really liked it and the gayman and susanna clark like inspirations like Spelled out like if you had you could have told me that susanna clark wrote this almost like in the universe of jonathan strange And I would believe you it has so much of that energy And I am with gayman. I don't understand why it's so forgotten. I feel like people would love this book Yeah, especially because like a lot of the sort of like quippy social commentary is like still relevant so yeah Yeah, and um, I think the only thing is like I didn't love the ending I feel like I was super vibing with it and the ending just kind of like I just felt like a ended a little bit Suddenly I feel like that's a very 1926 thing to do though I'm always surprised because I watch a lot of like old black and white movies And I'm always stunned because like nowadays movies have like such a grand like they like take a while to end And like you really know this is the end of the movie But black and white movies from back in the day were just like in middle of the scene They just like stop and then they're like the end. It's like what? Just just cutting it off right there. Okay That's a little like this book like it's not quite that bad, but it does end like a little suddenly, but um Yeah, like it had really subtle social commentary um just really magical like unexplained magic, um Very british absolutely very british something about its screens I think like I mean it is like different in like it's not like a total copycat because like Then we wouldn't respect the author But like the way that susanna clark's magic and then hope merleys is magic in this book is like Is being Is functioning as like a way to like explore like boundaries of polite society and boundaries of like social convention And like it's more about that than about like A magic system or something, you know, it's like the fact that like mr. Norrell and jonathan strange Like one of them is by the book and the other is like you have to feel it Like it's like not really about either of these like magic like approaches It's like about the dichotomy of these like approaches to life And like here too like the the fairy fruit and how people are like using it and stuff It's like it's about like people's approaches to like life and society and each other and things like that Yeah, exactly and I um Agree and it's also like Um, I should I should I wanted to restraise like jonathan strange mr. Norrell isn't like It's this book But part of her fairy fairy world and like that I see as a relation to this book like they're very different But I can see how this inspired it and I think evie might be right But I don't know if I would have loved let in the mist as much without Having already read and enjoy jonathan strange Like at some like I might have read this when I was younger and not gotten it But it's also like it's older So like it's more like verbose and like it's not like it takes a minute to kind of like get into the cadence of like This kind of like older I mean even tolkien is like that we were like this is an older book So like it takes a minute to like read this like older prose And and I will say though it's beautiful though like some of the stuff she writes you're just like wow And funny it's like very funny Very funny Very just like that dry dry sense of humor But yeah, you do have to get used to it like there are paragraph long sentences And I think the sense of humor is also in jonathan strange and mr. Norrell like a lot of the times when they do like the kind of like Comedy of etiquette, you know in jonathan strange and mr. Norrell. It's very reminiscent of the humor in love and the mist Yeah, because that's kind of humor doesn't it's a very like um, there's like kind of humor scenes between like the main male character and his friend Like when they're fighting and I'm like they're friends again, and it's just all very like it's very funny and they're very in their feelings Yes Very like satirical like Yeah, it's very funny. Um, yeah, I really enjoyed this one and like I agree that I I just feel like when we talk about classic fantasy, this is never talked about and I just feel like I have to go Fight against that because I am confused at like why this isn't listed Like it's pre-tolkin, which I know but it feels like it paves the way for a lot of modern fantasy Just in like a different way Yeah, um, well, it's not like a great grand adventure story with a sweeping score But like so what I mean, we are a member of pride and prejudice and that's not like an epic tale so like Right And I and I um, yeah, it's interesting. I also wonder like why is all the fantasy british though too Like that's something I need to like go figure out. Maybe it's like colonialism is probably like always part of that but um Yeah, like so it's surprising and it surprises me because like, um Which I know goal of verse travel is from like a lot earlier But social commentary rise love in the mist has the same energy as like goal of verse travels And I thought goal of verse travels was really hard to get through and this I really instead like racers I just feel like why aren't we talking about this one? Because a woman wrote it Wow, I mean But also so we've been talking about john and strange and mr. Norrell, but also like I rereading stardust after reading let in the mist I was like, oh my gosh like stardust is like again, it's not a ripoff Just like john and strange is not a ripoff or there's so much of it You're like I get it now Like I totally get what game and like was pulling from and what he was doing and why he did stardust the way he Did because I was like he's riffing on what in the mist. There's even in in stardust. There's some a reference to um Uh, what's it the the land of fairy, what's it called? Oh, jeez. I don't remember Um, but there's like it's like the same name and it's in in stardust They like briefly mentioned but it's like over there and they like just say the name And if you hadn't read love in the mist, you'd like, okay, what? But because I had I was like, oh, he's literally like using that name um Yeah, and it's interesting because neil gayman talked about this book and stardust in his Collection so that was also like a good primer since I've read the neil gayman thing first Um, but I haven't read stardust yet. I will say it made me more interested to read stardust I definitely enjoyed stardust way more because um the way that you said you weren't sure if you would have liked this If you hadn't read jonathan strange. So like I read stardust a long time ago and I was like And then I read let in the mist and then reread stardust and I was like I get it now Like it's still not my favorite gayman, but like I get it now Yeah, so um, yeah, I'm definitely excited to go read stardust now just like with that context But I will say like hearing hand talk about it and then reading it right after was like a good One too, especially having reading so xana clark. So it was like the whole thing like he talked about so xana clark And then I talked about this book and then I read this book and it was just like a nice little a little circle Um, the walls referenced in jonathan strange and mr. Norrell stories in stardust and in let in the mist Um, yeah, but there's like a specific place name That's in let in the mist that he uses in stardust. It's not like the wall um Anyway, I when you when you read stardust, you'll recognize the name and you'll be like that's where i'm led in the mist and I wasn't gonna respond to um arles. Yes fantasy has been around forever. So when i'm talking about i'm talking more about how we view modern fantasy um Like modern western fantasy, even if we're like narrow about it modern western fantasy I feel like i'm just always interested like Why most of it's british even when we just narrow it to the west because I did a bunch of research on us um But it's hard to find like the evidences of the fantasy Outside of western and I do think that has something to do with colonialism Like and and publishing because I was just trying to research like even if I can't read them I just want to know what they are and it's hard to find uh looks outside of like the fables and fairy tales and that were told so it's like Um interesting and then today it's like a publishing issue Um why you don't get those stuff translated but that's That's a whole different thing I do wonder about the like why was it more like british authors doing this kind of thing than american authors just specifically between those two and I do think like some of it would be because like The brits are like drawing on like this older like folkloric tradition and america like as this like new nation Like doesn't didn't have like so much of like this like our nation's like mythology type of like thing and so then the focus is I mean there's there's probably i'm a way over simplifying and i'm sure people have like written dissertations about this But it's like the whole idea of america was that like we're not about the past or about the future We're about like the now and like forging our own identity and like being this like new project of a nation And it's like that's not compatible with like the ancient fairies of the land, you know, like that's No, I think that's a super good point Especially like because like when you travel to europe like I've traveled to a few different countries. I've always been like impressed Not impressed is the wrong word, but like It's almost overwhelming how much history is there like you don't realize you don't have it until you see it Like my favorite story is when we were in greece We had a tour guide and we saw like this beautiful building. We're like, oh my gosh, that is so gorgeous He's like that's just like the library was only built like 800 years ago He's like like this is stupid like we want to go see like the ancient stuff and i'm like 800 years america could never Modern well in um smoke and mirrors the gayman Historic collection there's a story that's like feels very autobiographical But it's not actually about him But it's about an author who's like book is going to be made into a film and he is a british author So he is going to la to like meet with like film executives because they're supposedly gonna adapt his book And it's like his first time in la and like everyone's like, you know It's like all the tourist stuff and that like he's they're like bragging about the hotel that he's staying in That it's like this old historic hotel that's been here since 1920 and this british author is like 1920 like That's yesterday So it's like so historic Um and like evie yes, so I I had brought in my definition But I also think that's interesting like I always wonder why for example like specifically like south america All of their fantasy is almost always categorized as magical realism And I wondered that too like why is it that they categorize maybe their own works or the west does as Magical realism. There's like so much in there. It's really hard to research. I've tried It's hard um Anyway, yeah, I underline the mist. I I'm definitely gonna try That get people to read it especially I feel like if you like Kind of knowing where fantasy came from or you enjoy classics I feel like or if you enjoy jonathan's range of mist or noro Or if you enjoy that one or I was also thinking like the last unicorn. Have you read the last unicorn? No, I keep meaning to like forever and I just haven't yeah I don't know. I liked letting the mist better than that. Although I did read the last unicorn a while ago So maybe I changed my mind But it did have that kind of like fairytale quality to me and I felt like people love the last unicorn So I feel like this is kind of like that fairytale like very high level quality um Yeah, no, I don't agree that magical realism is a term for people too ashamed to admit. They like fantasy I think it gets misused a lot But I think magical realism is usually when it's like something is very grounded in our world But there are occasional elements of the supernatural. That's how I see magical realism Well, I think it often I think traditionally and I could be wrong about this. I'm hardly an expert but I think like the traditional kind of like um south american kind of uh magical realism is that like There is like not an acknowledgement that this is magical But it's just kind of accepted as part of the story and it is very obviously like not possible Like this seems like this seems to be a magical element, but it's never like addressed in the text as being such It's just like accepted as like how the read this reality is functioning if that makes sense That's how like a hundred years of solitude is And actually just like recently because I think a lot of people have read this book I just read ham net like ham net is a very magical realism book Even though you think it's a historical fiction because there's stuff in there that is not addressed It is not considered but clearly is not possible And but it it's not a fantasy at the same time um Anyway, yeah Uh, yeah, anyway, it was great I'm glad you liked it I figured at the very least even if you didn't like enjoy the reading experience You would at least be like it's interesting to read like a book that's like a pre tolkin fantasy purely as like an academic endeavor Yeah, let in the mist was one like I knew because you had told me in like what it was about I knew I wasn't gonna hate it. I was like, there's a chance. I will find it boring But I know I will enjoy the academic experience. I did way too funny to be boring It was way too funny and it just like It that's like the exact kind of stuff. I like like totally wacky totally high level Just like you can't eat the fairy fruit or the world will end like very like I was I was very into it. Um Yeah, oh, how do you imagine the fairy fruit to like look and taste? Um, I don't know why I imagined it as like Like kind of like peach like maybe and like fuzziness and Kind of like I think I kind of imagined like video gamey because it was like like maybe pinks and greens and slightly glowy But like white inside Like really sweet and soft Interesting because I feel like everyone pictures me differently But I think everyone pictures it a little bit differently, which is it was like interesting I'm like, I'm sure if I could if I had the like skills I could psychoanalyze people Like what does it mean for like how someone is picturing fair like the forbidden fairy fruits to be I think it just means for me that I've been playing too much tears of the kingdom Definitely has like a Zelda quality in my head All right Hey, what are we doing next? Are we feminist rage or the one you're most scared about? I think a good segue from a forgotten fantasy female author is feminist rage. So Alias grace by margaret Yeah alias grace by margaret atwood now. This is only the second at what I read um I read the handmaid's tale like four or five years ago really liked that book um I really liked this book It might have been better than it might have been better than handmaid's. I don't know it's um Yeah, I really liked it. I was gripped by this book. This book. I finished very quickly like this book like totally just Had me and I was just like what is happening It's like very creepy. It's very dark. It's like sad. It's weird and it's true like more or less Well, I mean that that's the most fascinating because it is true But obviously she's taking a ton of liberties I immediately had to like read her afterward and I was like googling All about this because I had to know Um, but I liked it a lot. Um The one thing when I first started reading it first of all, let's talk about this was my um, what I call my trick book Uh, you guys probably won't be able to see this because my internet sucks but it looks short and then you open it and the print is like A millimeter high and I was like, oh no, I'm not going to finish this book in time And then I when that copy arrived like I was kind of surprised at how like small it looked because I was like Because I have like the hardcover and it's not it doesn't look like a tone But it does look like like a bigger book and when that one arrived I was like Are these pages just really thick like No, it's just the tiniest print. Um, this is not a story about a girl who doesn't eat This is um a story about a girl who is convicted of murder There is a book about this and it's really really good and it's called The Wonder but it's not that's not like not It's completely fiction, but anyway, I do recommend that Yeah, so this is about a girl who is um Convicted of murdering her employer and her employer is like lover mistress kind of thing And the whole story is Unravelling whether or not she did it her background and a doctor who was like trying to figure that out Now one thing I will say like when I first started reading this was I supposed to hate the doctor Because I hated the doctor and I just want to know if you hated the doctor I think like, um Like I don't think I hated the doctor so specifically I hated because like kind of what the doctor represented because the doctor was this kind of like personification of this condescending patriarchal like um patronizing like attitude that he had towards her and like I'm the doctor and I'm so much smarter than this Like little servant girl and I'll trick her into confessing things to me because like Like just like the superiority of it and I was like he was less to me like a character that I hated and more They're just like you're like you represent like a much wider like kind of attitude that like as the like Representative of that. I hate that It was just the way his internal monologue was about all of the women in his life was so creepy It was so terrifying. It was literally like my worst nightmare Like this is what I would hope men were not thinking about me when I was in the room Like it's so sinister. Yeah, like so I mean, I didn't like he's the doctor and she's the criminal Yes, yes, and you're just like, oh my gosh But then like later I felt because at the beginning I was like am I not supposed to be feeling that he is the most disgusting Like grossest but then later in the book he starts acting on the stuff You're like, oh Margaret Atwood wants me to be like, yeah, you are a really creepy. Disgusting person. Okay, great um I mean I in some ways I love this character though because talk about like fascinating like could not put it down um Well, I just loved watching the kind of like battle of wits type of thing where like she's like I know exactly what you think you're trying to like trick me into saying and I'm going to very innocently naively Not understand that that's what you want me to say Yeah, I love I should say because I'm not saying like I hate the doctor in that way I love the doctor like every chapter he came on but I was just like ew Everything he thinks is so disgusting Just I hate it so much you know, um Apparently the Netflix adaptation is really good. It is really good. Um, it's quite loyal But yeah, this was another one that probably got stopped from being a five stars because I wanted more from the ending Which is unfair because I know it's like true events But like I just I just needed something and I wanted her to just make that like like just um Yeah, anyway, it was Creepy and good and I could not put this book down. This was definitely the book I feel like that was the most unput-downable of the four for me Like I just That makes sense. Yeah, I felt like I had to know what was gonna happen. It's just written so well like It's also like the rage of like her whole life like obviously the situation She's in like presently with the doctor But just like everything that she went through like it's like there's a reason She's good at handling the doctor because like she's been dealing with that in some form or other her entire life so like and and it did a really good job too of like seen the Issues of like all the women in the life like it wasn't just grace. It was also the mistress And it was also the friend and Like all of these things like and how unfair it is like just how unfair like at one point Before she goes to the farm um You know where the murder supposedly happens and the friend's like, oh if you you shouldn't go But like if you don't know that i'm not gonna tell you and you're just like shut up tell tell her what's happening Tell her she shouldn't go Like you know and I know tell her she shouldn't go um and so anyway, it's just Yeah, it was just like a good picture into the time period and Oh just written so well like I kept just been like, when was this written because it's just written. Oh my gosh. Look at this I'm telling you I left all the bookmarks in here. I don't understand like I couldn't find any of my bookmarks. I think there's one in here too Okay, I found three bookmarks. I'm very happy um But it's also like a kind of a tough needle to thread Yeah to like novelize um like true events as much as you can and then like fill in the gaps And still make it kind of like fit a narrative that you want to tell while still like Staying true to the parts that are like the kind of like non-negotiable. We do know this happened We do know this was you know Something true and then to fill in those gaps in a way that like feels narratively consistent Where if you said that this was an entire work of fiction where she did the whole story From start to finish and invented it like it feels like you know consistent Yeah, yeah, and I am yeah, it was really good. Um I I said that's been a while since I read The Handmaid's town that one's so famous. Um, but in some ways I feel like alias grace was More interesting or almost more innovative like it was just not like nothing I had really read Um previously so I know you don't like audiobooks But the audiobook for it is narrated by the actress that plays grace in the netflix adaptation, which is like Kind of nice. You had told me you wanted me to try it So I was reading half and I was like, oh, I'll do the same sometimes work I'll read a book and then when I'm doing chores, I'll listen But uh, it is an audible exclusive So there is no other way not my library nothing that I could listen to it And if you thought I was about to pay for audible no So I wasn't trying to shill for audible when I suggested this I just recalled it being a good experience And unfortunately I've already used my free trial of audible, but you will be uh You will be a fan of this It was because I was listening to trouble with peace and then my library copy ran out and it was like a 10 week wait And I was like no But then I was also like I kind of want to finish it on audio though because even pace is really good So I got a free trial of audible and just to finish trouble with peace and then cancel So now I can't get another one Until you break again and you're like, you know what? I was so happy about that story because he's like you sought out an audio book for the first time in your life You were like, I'm gonna go for Steven Pacy, which like if it's gonna be for anyone No, I'm really like I just I'm so reminded how much I just like audio books except for like Steven Pacy and and Neil Gaiman, so I don't need an audible um Yeah, anyway, it was really good. I another that I would recommend to a lot of people although it's kind of Uh as a morning it is like Graphic in some ways not like graphic graphic, but just like the the subject matter like the themes. They're just they're heavy It's like there's a lot of heaviness. Well, the feminist rage pick doesn't tend to be like that'll be the happy one That'll be the happy one. It did make me mad like really mad though. So it worked just like how Oh, they treat her and who they believe and Like especially how they treat the friend Just like heartbreaking but again, also the way that like, um, I feel like um Oftentimes women are vilified for like being manipulative and stuff But it's like when you look at like Grace's life, you're like the only power she ever possessed Was the ability to sometimes manipulate people and be like, look if you're gonna treat me like this If you're gonna regard me this way then fine, then I will take whatever advantage I can out of that So like she'll play up her like innocent look and she'll like play up being like sweet and stuff because like People like oh, she's like such a tricksy Vixen she's a temp dress like this kind of thing and it's like well in her position like literally What is she supposed to do like this is like the only thing that she has that like she could like use to like maybe help herself out Yeah, and I also um as I felt with the handmaid's tell which I want to say first of all If you've only watched the show I haven't seen the show But from what I've heard the show is much more graphic than the handmaid's tell is the book because when I read the handmaid's tell I don't remember thinking it was like that graphic. It was dark dark themes But like she doesn't tend to get graphics. I want to say that first of all Second of all like again, I'm just like Margaret Atwood Her stories are still relevant Like as I was reading that I was like this is relevant Like maybe not in the same way it was relevant, but it's still relevant Today unfortunately I would love for it not to be relevant Love for it not to be relevant Let's hope next year a feminist rage pick will be not relevant Next year, you'll be like, oh remember when Feminism is not necessary um Yeah, remember Sexism is thing of the past Um you solved it What we're really here for is Well, I think it's time to wrap up tonight. So thanks for joining First of all, you were like This oh, so I have your um the things you wrote me on the insides of them All right, and you were like this has more romance than I would normally choose And that statement makes it sound like this is not a romance book This is a straight romance book. You made it sound like oh, there is a side plot of romance This is a romance book first of all second of all I read the first chapter of this book and I was like liana is making me read drary fan fiction Like that I didn't I'm not drary. Yeah, drary. That's the right one. Drary fanfic You're like that that is what I'm reading right now. Not only has it forced me to romance She has forced me to like tricked me into reading drary fan fiction which like immediate jail Before we go on Maybe I should say what this is about because in case a lot of people didn't know What this was about when I posted it a lot of people in my audience do Yeah Okay, this is going to be hard to explain Would you like this author? You explain liana. Yes, you explain. Okay Ramo ral wrote a book called fan girl and in fan girl It's about a modern day like real world girl Who's going to college and this girl in the universe of this book is Also an author of like a really really popular fan fiction and in the universe of this book They don't have the harry potter series, but they have like an equal and equivalent Type of series it's called the simon snow series And she's like the author of like one of the most popular fan fictions of simon snow And her fan fiction is called carry on and so like the the simon snow books in her universe are more like harry potter They're not roman centric. He's a wizard boy He goes to wizard school as the chosen one blah blah blah blah blah And she's written a fan fiction that's like about simon snow getting on with like the Draco mouth boy of like the simon snow books And so like you get snatches of like what her fan fiction is about in fan girl But fan girl is about her going to college and being the author of this fan fiction It's like about her life And so then carry on this book that i've made book born read Is not the simon snow books that exist in the universe of fan girl It is the fan fiction that the character in fan girl has written about those non-existent simon snow books That's what carry on us Yes, um, so I forgot i'm checking my notes. I forgot there's a couple other things i'm putting you in jail for So first that it's romance second that it's dreary. We'll get back to that third That twilight adjacent there are parts in this book that are twilight adjacent and you cannot tell me otherwise I've never actually read twilight so I wouldn't know it's enemies to lovers Which is like my least favorite romance trope other than love triangles enemies to lovers and there's kind of a love triangle too So I guess also jail for them So lots of jail. I have like you're stacking my multiple life sentences Drary is not the worst fan fiction ship that's come out of harry potter So like at least there's that like if it was dramani It would be way worse for me because that is like my least favorite ship on the planet at least dreary is fun Like I give them dreary like that's fun. So like it's fine um okay This book Was bad and also good In jail this will soothe my feelings I still see them by all the jail things And there is a big issue I have with it that we'll talk at the end because I feel like it's just something I need to Oh, that's the spoilery one. Okay. I was wondering Actually, my biggest complaint isn't spoilery. I just feel like I need to talk about it after I've talked about some I know but at the beginning you said there was one book that you said you said you might need to talk about a spoiler Yes, this is the book But I think I can maybe I think I can say most of my stuff without being spoilery but um I will get like this book is legitimately funny. I will give it that like the book is actually funny Um, it's funny. Like I laughed like the author is funny Like I'm gonna give her that like the author is very funny And I also appreciate that the way it's referential to harry potter actually surprised me because I expected it to be obvious And instead it's actually not like I feel like if I wasn't such an entrenched harry potter fan I wouldn't have caught a lot of it's actually like I wonder if I caught more references than you did like because there is like a lot of like How to put this like a fandom references I'd say more fandom references like since I have been in harry potter fandom for so long I found that she was like referencing like actual fan fiction that's written about harry potter in a very funny way And so I appreciated that I guess I expected this to be more taking the piss out on harry potter and it's not doing that at all No, because like I feel like that's what I always said It was like it's like you're like laughing with it and it's like like you're like It's like a ribbing something that you yeah that you love and then you can kind of be like We both love this thing so we can kind of laugh at it too Yes, it's totally in the way of like I loved harry potter and so now I can laugh at it and like that That part I like appreciated quite a bit Um, and so like that helped this book a lot for me because it was just so deeply funny and Referential in a way that I wasn't expecting in a good way to be referential Yeah, it's funny in like not in like a harry potter's trash kind of way It's in like let's kind of like make a parody of harry potter for a second because like we all like harry potter so like Yeah, and I think um, you know because like even as a kid it really bothered me that the people in harry potter world didn't take math I don't know why but like as an 11 year old that was upsetting to me. What do you mean? You're just never going to take math again Like wizards need math or you're just like never going to take an english class again Like they have to learn to write And so I do think it's funny like she addresses the criticisms In a way that again isn't like oh look how good I am and how bad harry potter is but it's more like Yeah, they did have to do math. So like here's where they did math It's like so I appreciated like that about it Um, I also thought like magic and it was very funny Like how words were magic because words are magic and harry potter. This was like Well, if the phrase is I wish I had I don't know if I put down an example I wish I had put down an example Well, so in my like lengthy like babble rant and I was like the babble magic system is stupid It makes no sense and I was like legitimately the magic system and carry on makes more sense The magic system and babble Yeah, well and like I think it was like um Liar liar pants on fire Like that's the kind of stuff that does magic like it's phrases And I actually like thought that was legitimately clever Like I'm kind of mad because I would legitimately read a serious book with that magic system But I would read it and look um, I forgot that I marked one of my favorite sentences So I'm gonna read it a favorite sentence in a book that's trash that's sending me to jail Well, no, I was I marked this to say to give it the credit for being funny So he talks about like the Dumbledore character in this book And he was like they were gobbling up drunk people in club bathrooms and the mage was worried about losing regional slang It's like such a funny rift On like the stuff Dumbledore cares about like this was when I was like, okay Even if I hate this book at least it's gonna be funny because that's like legitimately funny Um, so I did like that um By the end I hated that I was sort of rooting for drary Like I By the end I was kind of like, okay fine like fine I don't hate them together Like you can't help but sort of root for it like fine Um, I again one of the other referential things that I like is that simon snow Who's like the harry potter character is sort of an idiot? Yeah, it's kind of like a wrong harry combo Yes, well, but I think people don't give book harry enough credit for kind of being an idiot And they make wrong to do And he's like he's really good at defense against the dark arts and then everything else is kind of not there And simon snow has that energy And it is a fandom joke that like harry and drake were too obsessed with each other And so the way she plays into the like the fan fiction I thought was very very funny um I also And now I can't remember her name because it's been a while. Who's his girlfriend. Who's simon's girlfriend? Um, it's not penelope, right? Penelope is the friend Um, penny's the friend. That's the only name like agatha agatha. Yeah agatha It was agatha all the time Well agatha Like piecing out at that's kind of a spoiler. I don't care agatha piecing out at the end Peak comedy for me her being like, yeah, no, this world sucks. Like bye Like that also was like, yes. Thank you. Like Someone who's like nope Bye. I'm I'm not going to be a part of this crappy world. Um Yeah, so um It was very funny. Um So, yeah, I like it was so it was just so much romance. Like there was just parts where I was like liana I cannot even believe you're making me read this like just The scene where um by as and simon finally get together I was just like liana. I cannot believe you're making me read this. This is so corny. This is so cheesy But see like that's why you can read it because it's not like this very dramatic like I will die without true love story They're like being funny Well, I know but this was like so fan fiction. I was like liana. I don't read fan fiction for a reason I know and but yeah, you made me and so I know it was true to it But it was just like I cannot believe I have to read this like This is what's happening. It's an harry wouldn't have survived without Hermione and carry on totally acknowledges that I mean most fans I think it was the book I mean the movies that unfortunate like for people who didn't read the books the movies Which you and I have talked about like privately liana about how like they twist the main three characters And it really like uneven It in the movies. But yeah, like in the book It's very clear like harry and ron wanted to made it to the end If Hermione wasn't there harry wanted me at the end without ron either Like that's the other problem is like they really short change short chain drop anyway um So yeah, it was just If there's wasn't romance in this like maybe it's like Simon like they got together still because I'm like I'm on board But I didn't have to like read about it so much Then they would be fine. Um No, so actually what made me I feel like I would have even maybe I rated this a little higher but One thing that bothers me a lot about this Is that nowhere on this or in this or in a forward or afterward? I read it all does it acknowledge that it is a fan fiction Like it doesn't acknowledge its place in her universe Oh, that a fan fiction of like the simons know that doesn't exist. That's from fangirl. Yes Yes And so because of that like I was giving the author a ton of credit and maybe I should But it confuses me because if I picked this up in a store I would have no way of knowing that it was connected to fangirl I'd have no way of knowing that so I read this straight Like if I read this straight without any of the background knowledge you gave me I would have hated it. I would I wonder if like the the publisher I wonder if the publisher was like look you could write it like in a way where you don't have to read fangirl And people just read this is fantasy story, but people who know will be like, oh, yeah, this is the thing from fangirl And I'm sure that's what it is maybe to give it broader appeal And like she mentioned a briefly acknowledgment that she just Simon was and she was like, I really have to write simon and it doesn't Like the weird thing is it almost is like maybe She's saying that this is just the real simon snow story because like that she doesn't acknowledge. Definitely Yeah, it's definitely not and like, you know that if you read fangirl because in fangirl She like talks about like stuff that's in the simon snow books that like, you know And how it ends differently or like the things that she's changed about it So like it's like when you read fangirl, you're like, yeah Well, this is the version where the things that she changed are like the thing that's happening Like baz and and simon getting together like that's not a thing in the original simon snow So I just feel like it's really bizarre that it is not acknowledged anywhere in this book And so like that fundamentally bothers me because to me Me problem to have with this like you sound like me you're like, you know what I'm not Like last night I was like good news is I have a same argument to liana It's like I cannot be on board with this book because if I had read it without any of the knowledge It just gave me I would hate this book But because I had that knowledge You also like that kind of makes me feel vindicated because like for a long long time actually okay So originally when carry on was published it was like with this cover And I it just looked like a modern like YA like romance like book that like I was like I would never read this And then they re-released it with this cover and I was like, oh, what is that? And there I was like, oh, it's the same book is that other thing? Oh, what and then I was like Oh, it's like this like fan fiction thing that's based on fangirl And I was like, well, I don't want to read fangirl, but I want to read that And everyone was like, you don't have to read fangirl just if you don't want to read fangirl Don't read it. You can just read carry on it really doesn't matter And I was like, I have to read fangirl and then I will read carry on and they're like, but you don't want to read fangirl I was like, I know But I have to read fangirl and then I did read fangirl and actually enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would And then I read carry on and I do think that I I guess like you don't have to have read fangirl But at the very least you have to have somebody who has read it Explain to you what carry on is like you like you can skip reading it as long as someone tells you But if no one tells you and you haven't read it, then You'll be very confused Well, and I think like for some people like if you love romance Like it's a well-written book. It's very funny. It's very well written Like so I think if you're kind of someone who just likes romance and you like fantasy I could see you picking this up and having zero issue With what I just said But because it is the only thing that was predicated for me liking this book Is that it like bothers me on such a fundamental level that it is never explained I'm like reading the back of the book several times. I'm reading the acknowledgments I'm reading the forward. I don't even think there is a forward. Yeah, I think so And so I just like it just bothered me like I just I can't get over that But ultimately I think this is a three star There was like high highs And low lows. I am not sad. I read it and I will say like a super Like I enjoyed reading it in terms of like it wasn't hard to get through like I also read this very quickly I remember telling Zach it was like I kind of hate it But I also kind of love it like I can't put it down like and it's so funny It's so funny There's so many books that like people say are really funny that they really like like I've tried reading rick raiordan And people are always like rick raiordan. It's so funny and I just don't think it's funny at all I'm like rolling my eyes and like just like slogging through it. I can't stand it and then rainbow rowl I'm like, I think it's so funny and I'm calm. I think when I was reading wayward son the second one after this I think I messaged you to be like at that time I wasn't like bold enough to like Consider making you read it and then I worked up to it But I was like, I don't think you'll ever read this But I just need to share out of context jokes And I think I like shared with you because like they go to america in wayward son And like these brits are like, I don't understand why everyone has a pickup truck Like they guess they have a lot of stuff to like pick up and move all the time And how like the fancy house is like as empty as possible So they can like prove how wealthy they are by having as little as possible in the biggest empty space ever And like it's like all these like jokes about america. They're really funny Well, because you had told me either is about fangirl Maybe I am maybe it was about the second one because you had texted me a lot about simon snow Because of the harry potter references like because you knew that I would appreciate those like at the very least um Yeah, I actually I briefly looked into the other ones because like I was like it was funny and I hated it, but I also didn't hate it So maybe but then when I read the synopsis of the other two I was like, I don't think I should read these like I think I'm just gonna stay with carry on And I feel like you could read wayward son And I don't think you should read the third one because it's like the most roman like romance like centric of the three So like don't read the third one, but the second one they go to america and it's like constant like What I just remembered the spoiler thing I did want to talk about so we can just do that But yeah wayward son is like mostly like hijinks of being in america and like they I think They like break up or they're like not together for most of it So that's like that's like a source of tension, but they're like not together for most of it So that would be great for you. So it's mostly them being like kind of like horrified and surprised by america and like eating hamburgers for the first time and being like This is the most american thing we can do. I'm like, it's very funny Well, like I also don't know if I wanted to break up, you know, it's like I have a complicated relationship with the book You know what I mean? Like I hate it, but I also don't want them to break up because by the end like progressively I'm like it's kind of very um You don't read haiku the manga But like one thing I do like is I am kind of a sucker for like the relationships that are sunshine and like darkness like very like april and andy in Parks and rec Or kageyama and i'm not they're not like a romantic relationship, but they're friends that are like sunshine So I couldn't help but be pulled by like dumb smart sunshine darkness like I do I get it, you know And um Yeah, so uh Yeah, so I do have two spoiler thoughts. I forgot as well, but like overall like yes I I hate it and I loved it and I hated it. I'll take it. It was both so three stars I Am I put it I do feel this way like I'm not sad. I read it like I had a good time I did think like at the very least even if you hated basically every single thing about it I did think that the jokes like completely in isolation because I did like message you out of context jokes from the series I was like the jokes even if literally everything around the jokes is awful. You'll be like it was funny And it was um Yes, anyway That was it. Okay. Tell me the spoiler hasn't read carry on. Yeah, if anyone hasn't read carry on and thinks they will and cares about Here's the spoiler. They're very in some ways mild I guess Uh, I mean it's a Harry Potter fanfic so people can kind of like some of it can probably guess how it's gonna go but Well, I was just gonna say I cannot believe simon ends with a permanent dragon tail And wings this up actually upset me. This was so stupid. This was like no, I cannot believe And then I that's what the thing is like when I looked at the other two He has a dragon tail and wings on the other book So that never goes away And like I unlike the time turner that just tragically disappears from harry potter simon snow consistently has Wings in a tail And I hate that and I hate that so like I hate that Um And matt yes one plus five divided by two equals three. That's exactly right Exactly right the math is math. Um, I can't explain. I hate that the end scene where they're dancing and he has a tail I hated it. I I can't express how much I hated it Um, just because of like the like why specifically do you hate it just because it's like dumb or because it's like weird or Because it's dumb. I just felt like it was dumb. I can't explain it other than that. I was just like In just the way like they explain him holding the tail. I just I Couldn't do it. Okay. I just couldn't do it. I'm just gonna leave it there um Yeah, and then The other thing the only thing is like the whole time I knew the mage was gonna be Evil one like yes, I knew that But like it bothers me because I feel like I have to be such a dumbledore defender because I think people misunderstand Dumbledore as a character and I'm like here you are rainbow after I've told you like everyone how great you are And you had to do this to me. You had to like make it even harder for me to be like a dumbledore explainer so Even though I did actually think dandy was good. Um I didn't actually carry on is telling if you like don't think of it as being dumbledore If it's just like the mage then it's like, yeah Yeah, then it makes sense and and I actually one thing I will say is like it did take me by surprise that it was simon Like because I thought it was the mage the whole time And so then it was also like actually kind of simon and the mage Like I actually thought that was like a very interesting and I do lack when something that's referential still is like Well, because and that is also as like a little bit riffing on the idea that like Harry Potter is like the savior but also it's because of Harry Potter that the school is constantly being destroyed So it's like kind of Harry Potter's fault also Yes, yes, um So, yeah, that was that was all great and um, and I do agree Sean like she did commit to the bit Like so I will give her that I just wished it was a different bit. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't know the wings come in handy in some future hijinks um Yeah, anyway So that that that was my overall thoughts. I feel like I could have been harder on carry on So I feel like you should feel like it's a win. I'm already in jail with multiple life sentences. So like Sure One thing I did message you I like my chapter to this and you are making me redreary and fan fiction I do not need to go any further to know that that is where this was headed Like it wasn't exactly subtle. I mean the cover could probably tell you that I mean, yes The cover combined with the first like that they don't have wands Well, they do have wands. I mean, they have like a thing that they use to like enact magic, but it's like Not necessarily a wand It's not yeah I mean, but they like they they sort of have wands, but yeah, not really. Um, I mean simon has a sword instead of like the wand um But yeah, I mean the magic that's what I'm saying like I unironically I just like Take the romance out Set this like a hundred years before or later. I don't care Let me just read about random magic people and that being the magic system I'm I'm down for it because it was very funny If you ever have a day where you feel like it wayward sun is much shorter than the first or the third one It's like the shortest one of all of them. It's like very very short They're in america and like it's a lot to do with like magic and hijinks and adventure and stuff So like and it's really really funny. So you might enjoy wayward sun Maybe I maybe one day if I'm feeling sad and I need like a hate pick me up Um, and it's like super short. So you'd probably finish it in like one sitting Yeah, oh, is it really that short because it's like it's a really fast read But it wasn't like necessarily super short Yeah carry on as well It's the length that it is and then wayward sun is like really short and then the third one is longer than even carry on Wayward sun is like this. Yeah, like middle adventure where they're just in america Yeah, um I will say though. I was more nervous. Where is the one on the front? Where does it say it? Oh Um, because it has just as much kissing and talking as you'd expect from a ramble roll novel And I was like, okay, first of all, this is going to be horrible But then it I didn't feel like it ended up being as backside was worried. It was going to be like super spicy, but like it really Yeah, that's it's mostly like it's why I guess it's why is it why? Yeah, that's why it's mostly like I guess I didn't know that um, but anyway, so yeah, uh The day that you started reading carry on Um, like that same day, um, or maybe it was like the morning after you told me you started it I like even though I was like not on my tbr not on my plans I like downloaded the audiobook on my phone and started listening to the beginning But this time I was like, okay, this is book born is experiencing these words right now How is she experiencing these words right now? Is it fine? Have I made a huge mistake? I was like listening to the first chapter. I was like, it's funny. It's very funny. I was like I don't think this will go too badly. And then like the next thing you told me was jail. I was like, no Oh, no So I read I physically read these two and then I half read cheap sheet cheap seats I cannot say that I have read cheap seats and half listened to it But this one I actually almost fully listened to And I do think listening to it made me like it more. I did think like Because there was like accents and they got like the humor down. I'm I mean, I wasn't sure I read the last little bit, but then I already had their voices in my head So I wasn't sure how much it helped me like well the narrator has like really good comedic timing Yes, and so I think the comedic timing I'm glad I listened at least the first part of it Even though I did read some of it because it helped me understand like oh, this is supposed to be like comedic This isn't serious. And so it was nice having that like in my head. It's very like dry British humor too. It's not like Yes So anyway, yep How much did you how much did you crave sour cherry scones? While reading it Um It did the food made me hungry. It did make me hungry a lot when I was reading this. I was just like, oh, I just like baked goods um What I was gonna say that was overall Because I was I meant to look last at what you gave me because you gave me Stranger the Dreamer a madness so discreet um What were the other two why am I like Blanky What What did you give me Well, I looked it up and then it already has left my head I'm like looking over here like oh a declaration of the rights of magicians Oh a declaration of the rights of magicians. Okay, and then um, was there a non-fiction pick? I don't think so Okay, anyway, I don't Whatever mysterious book number four was Um must not have been very good Well, I think it was I was gonna say like overall like other than carry on is the only thing bringing down the score Right because everything else was a 4.5 Yeah Maybe a five. I was gonna say view from the cheap seats is not five No, that's five and then the other two. I think I gave a 4.5 um, and so like There in the nightingale Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I just I mean I think I gave most of I think I gave madness so discreet a three I think I gave right some magicians a three two. That's where we came up with my favorite phrase ever, which was brilliant but unreadable and then I gave the other two four um stars Strangest dreamer I did feel passionate about without but the betrayal But I was gonna say the other books like I just didn't feel like super passionate about even though I enjoyed them generally I just felt like this year I like wow, I really liked Haley's grace. I really liked letting them miss. I really liked view from the cheap seats So I felt like they were like strong 4.5 and you didn't entirely hate carry on And I didn't I I love hated hate to love loved hate So you had your own love hate to love romance with the book with Were enemies to not quite lovers Enemies to tenuous friends. You're the grump to carry on sunshine. Yes, exactly. Um Yeah, it was just like if we dialed the cheesiness down by at least 300 And like that's the thing because like if it's referencing Fanfiction, I appreciated the cheesiness because then I mean the one biggest issue with this book actually is that it's too well written to be fanfiction So that's like already immediately unbelievable I'm just kidding. Hey, have this famous for writing the best simon snow fanfiction out there. She's like, we're all famous So that's why it's so good So may that's true. That's just in line with with the thing. Yeah, so um, but it was fun like it was It was fun It's I love it when a book that like I kind of hate but I also love to read it Now this was much better So I don't want to compare it but it's kind of like we read darling girl like darling girl was trash book And this isn't but like you have to admit darling girl was a great read like A great read this wasn't trash, but it had the same energy where like I can dislike a lot about this But still just like have a ton of fun But I think it's like darling girl if it was like I am trying to be campy and bad intentionally then like maybe but it was it thought it was a serious book and carry on is like I'm like campy fanfic. So you're like, yes, you are But that's like um, that's why darling girl sucked in we gave it one star But like I read that book so quick if you remember I was like, I cannot put this train wreck down This is watching a slow train wreck um Where's like also carry on is like it's a little bit like harry potter and the like It's fun to like escape into the world of carry on and be like Oh, this food sounds so good and the school sounds so magical and everybody's so like funny and like sarcastic And they go to college I love that detail like so they study at the magic school and then they all try to get into like ivy league colleges like it's a prep school like I just um Yeah, some of the riffs on that I just thought were like very well done um, did you like the humdrum? I think the name humdrum just No, I didn't know but But it's fan fiction. So it's okay that it's stupid. That's what I'm saying I mean when your spells are like lyre lyre pants on fire, you have to have a feeling called the hum, the insidious hum drum And the british accent saying the hum drum the hum drum Yup as the hum drum um Yeah Anyway, that's it. Well, I'm glad it was it went better than I Was dreading for a second there taking approves. He's back there again tonight hanging out Wait, what? Did you not notice piggy's back there hanging out? He's listening to our chat again. He's just oh, he moved I was like, I'm looking at the spot piggy is not there Move around Um, he sleeps with my kids. So then I had to like move him in a new location Piggy's having a late night, you know, it's showtime piggy's having a late night Look, there's a lot of piggy lore piggy only speaks by whispering into your ear So you can make piggy say anything you want, but he's got a whisper Piggy does not like being left on the ground piggy has to be on a pillow or a bed during the day if we leave him at home I mean, there's all sorts of Lore piggy has very short legs So like I think it's reasonable for piggy to be like no, I will not be on the floor. Thank you Yeah, it's just like uncomfortable. It's a little scary. Um, you know, he's just not not into it Yes, thank you. I also yeah, all of us were worried piggy was missing an action No, it's just okay, but actually though This is like the cute the reason we left him so much is look how stupid cutie is His eyes are so far apart It's also like everything is so like nubby and like round um Just for the record. Yeah, liana sends my daughter videos of a little tiny pig eating food like stop motion Which is why this got sent this was looks identical It looks like dental and we have made our own stop motion eating videos anyway He's a little buddy. I like him too to be honest. He's really cute Perfect like round squishable holdable. Yeah, he's just like yeah, you know back in the day when you say kawaii all the time It's just like a little kawaii kawaii just that kawaii It's a Japanese word. That was like very in vogue among like the Teen anime lover of me. Did you not go through like an anime phase? I just not Yeah Anyway, I'm outing myself here But it is very cute. So if that's what that means then I concur Oh kawaii means cute. Yes. Sorry kawaii means cute, but like extra cute like chubby cute It's like small spelled smol Yes, it's more Yep All right. Well, that's that's that then those I I think this was a success It was Yeah, I enjoyed it. Um Yeah, I mean even when I didn't enjoy the books last year, I always still enjoy it It's like fun to read different books that I'm not going to pick up. So Yeah, that's why I always because like I know you did actually cancel a book of the month and like I like toy with it but I'm like because like I have picked up a lot of books because the book of the month that are like, you know lit fake and and non-fake and thrillers and stuff that like I I wouldn't pick them up and I wouldn't prioritize them if I did pick them up So it like forces me to like read things that I wouldn't just like Just like default to all the time and even if I often don't enjoy the experience Like I'm like it's making me do that. So like I like that about it Yeah, and maybe when I don't have so much to read I will Pick it back up that made I did just actually like read Um, because I try to read my book of the month club books always like the next month So it's like I'm always like on top of it But I had a book of the month club book from last year that I didn't manage to read And it's impossible to get the audiobook at least for me like my libraries Neither of the libraries that I have cards for have it and scribs doesn't have it So I was like, well, I have to read it physically. So I read it Um, I put on my TBR because I skipped book of the month. So I didn't have one for this month So I was like, well, I'll read that one that I didn't actually manage to read before and it five stars I loved it so much and it was just been sitting there this whole time And I was like am I ever actually gonna read that I didn't read it One night. It was like the month for it. Maybe I should just get rid of it And um, it's called other birds and it was kind of magical realism Which we were talking about earlier. I was like, oh like like other birds It was just I don't know if it's like right time right book But I was it was like beautiful and cozy and kind of also like creepy and mysterious And like made me cry at the end. I was like this book is so good. Like I almost got rid of it without reading it You can give it to me next year. Maybe I will I already have ideas for next year, which is like an issue since it's a year away, but that's okay Well, yeah, my list for this year was like 10 books and I had to narrow it to four So then I'll just like I I'll probably add more books to that list and this problem will get worse You're fine But yeah, I'm I'm pleased that we did this. It was a lot of fun. I'm so glad that you're willing good times To subject yourself to this Yeah, yeah, especially lead in the mist. I do really like the cover for lead in the mist Yeah, I love lead in the mist cover. I think a lot of people on my instagram just wanted to buy it just because of how it looked It's a really nice cover It's also nice because it's not just like printed on there. It's like embossed like the it's embossed. Yes I think I will probably put it next to um The ladies of grace adieu. Yeah, they look kind of a similar like flowery, but like muted like aesthetic Yeah, they feel like they belong next to each other and then you'll read stardust and put that next to it as well Now stardust will go with my other gayman. He gets he's Well then All of gayman can move over That's true. They can all move over down there. Okay, fine We solved it all right well, thank you for also I don't know if we'll be able to see with the the Internet situation, but we are once again the same person Wearing the same thing that we happen to both own to confuse you even more yep So if anyone's mistaking now now, I guess we can't complain about it if people mix us up because we're like courting that We're trying we're trying to make it work out So, um, uh, you paint your bookshelves brown and I'll paint mine white And we'll just like accidentally pass I'll send you my shields and I'll just put the Abercrombie books behind me Okay Perfect. Yeah, and then I'll I'll get some sanders and leather bounds We're gonna do it Oh, thank you very much You notice this time. Yeah, well you were looking for it. It's our Easter egg piggy and matching Yeah, piggy is gonna be in every other live now. So you guys can check it out Well, thanks everybody for joining us and we'll talk to you soon probably at some point Bye