 Welcome to Web Chat Wednesdays. My name is Chris and I'm here with Ryan. Hello. And in this episode, we are talking to Sri and Josh. Hello. Yes. Sri Kanda is a physicist turned engineer and an artist based in San Francisco. He pursues his particular interest in art and idealism by harnessing technology and pop culture to achieve new imaginative goals and sculpture design. Sri is a co-founder and the current CFO of Looking Up Arts Foundation. And Josh Zupkov is a San Francisco based artist whose versatile work explores the intersection of pop culture and profound meaning. He is the creative director and a founding member of Looking Up Arts Foundation, a San Francisco based nonprofit organization established in 2018, dedicated to building large scale art installations while fostering a community around it. He is currently pursuing his MFA at CSULB. Thanks so much for joining us. How are you guys doing today? Yeah, thanks for having us. I'm really stoked. Your arts really, both of your art is really amazing and it's like, I personally have an interest in stage, like stage design and like installation design. So I'm really excited to talk about all this. But yeah, to start off, what is Looking Up Arts Foundation? We are a community of artists, designers, engineers, hackers, painters, pixel pokers, all in all, just doers that come together for the love of making public art. That's awesome. I love that. So many people collaborating together. Yeah. I think on Rainbow Bridge we had what over 100 volunteers. Yeah. Wow, pretty amazing. It had over 25,000 pixels and they were all hand-poked. So when I meant, when I said pixel pokers, it's for real. Literal pixel pokers. Yeah, we were poking pixel through CNC with panels. Oh, wow. Awesome. There's like this like Star Wars documentary where they show how they used to make like the ships and they would, they would do that with, with the model ships and there was like so many little lights that we'd have to insert. So why did you two start Look Up Arts Foundation? What was the calling for that? In 2017, I received a Black Rock City honor area to build Phinecopterus Rex, which was my, the 40 foot tall lawn flamingo climbable. And it was just this huge undertaking and I didn't know how to build something like that. And so the whole learning process, we built this amazing team and got all these resources together and got a, this unbelievable build space. So when we finished the project, we're like, okay, we need to keep this going somehow. We need to figure out how to roll those things for the next year. That's awesome. Yeah, that was it. So Black Rock City, that's related to Burning Man, right? Oh yeah. Yes. And they, they, did they see like your previous works or something or are they? Well, I, so they do an honor area almost every year. And I had submitted a bunch of proposals. They let anybody propose. And I submitted a terrible Photoshop of a 40 foot tall like overscaled lawn flamingo. And they said yes. And that was, that was the motivation to kind of quit my job and start making art full time. That's a huge life change. Um, so do you have like a certain goal behind each of the projects you two pursue? Or is it changing each time? Definitely change from project to project. But if there is one or two common goals in my mind that all of our projects have, it's community driven and interactivity. We love to make our project open for community to come in and participate and make their own. And yeah, we love when our community comes together, creates with us and yeah, spend time with us. As far as interactivity, Josh and I love climbable, touchable art. I guess that is a throwback to Burning Man and we love to do that not only for Burning Man but outside. And once you're at it, you have this great opportunity to introduce technology that tends to be also a common goal to achieve interactivity via technology. That's awesome. Yeah, I did notice we were talking about how a lot of installations involve climbing. So much. It's so much fun. And it's also, it's such a different approach to art making where instead of like a rigid set of rules where this is how you behave here, it's totally wide open. And so, if you don't, you know, design the work to be interacted with, I guess, in that open manner and that I don't want to say uncontrolled but like where people kind of have to find their way around it. If you don't design for it, they'll find the wrong way to use it. Yeah. Like they'll climb on things that are not meant for climbing so. Well, yeah, that makes sense, especially like if you're having a Burning Man, it's a giant adult playground, people are having double vision triple vision or kaleidoscope vision. They're trying to climb things and stuff. So it's good that you design it for that reason. I mean, I think the rainbow, it was our second time working with a structural engineer. And so it is strong enough to hold. But I think 300 people on top before it even how it's deflects some more people than can possibly fit on it, but that's amazing how strong it is. And handle wind speeds up to 100 miles per hour. I mean, I guess it has to when you're out in the desert like that. I mean, it has to be ready for any kind of weather, right? Yep, has to be ready for art cars to drive into it. People to be jumping on it, people using flamethrowers on it. Wow. How long does it take to. I'm guessing you designed it to be like easily taken apart, but how long does it take to put together and how many people does it did the rainbow installation take? Right, we have installed it five times so far and our average build time is about six days, five to six days. We usually call the six day or buffer day to make sure everything's done and if anything's missed during the build that's taken care of on that day. As far as team size, on most days, it would be six people actively working on some days it goes up to 10. A lot of organization. But it's cool you're making like playground for all these people to enjoy. I mean, when we first designed it, we were definitely thinking about, you know, getting it done that first time. And I don't think we ever imagined like getting to evolve it and grow it and changing the process, but every time we build it, it's a little bit different, a little easier. True. That's good. So I have to hear it's getting easier. But yeah, I'm interested like both with the projects that you work with and then also your collaboration with each other. How has that grown over the years or changed over the years. You want to start with Val. Yes. So we actually used to work together at a law firm seven years ago. Oh wow. So you have to like imagine us in a professional button down environment. Honestly though it still feels the same most of the time like we would have some big problem that one of our teammates or clients would come to us with and we'd always take each other on to solve what would seem like an unsolvable problem and do it, you know, do it fast. Yeah, we were notorious in our company for solving things quickly effectively. But on the management side we're also known for not really documenting these quick solutions well. Rather, our philosophy is like, why face time and documenting while you can just keep solving. We would just like say yes to most of the issues that come our way. And yeah, spend all our time there. But since then we've been we've played so many different roles with it like with each other towards each other. It's amazing. What creating art has did to us to our bonding or to our relationship. There were times where one of us would be driving a heavy machinery and the other person is like directing as a rigor. There are times where we're getting each other breakfast and coffee to the bed because the other person had to stay up like almost all night and only had few hours of sleep. And so Josh is my unofficial arts mentor. I only started making art since 2018 so that has been very helpful to me, having not only a business partner but also someone who guides my artistic journey. Yeah. Like three has this amazing way of just believing things are possible and when, like, like, when you're starting on a big project, and there's no clear roadmap to it. It's easy to get bogged down and they like, you know, not knowing how to do it and just because you know the solution it's sometimes pretty daunting and then you have someone like him who is like always believes that it's possible. And it's kind of, yeah, it's nice. That's a philosophy it's like, when you, when you like, tell yourself that nothing is impossible and that you can do anything you really end up accomplishing amazing things that way. Yeah, well, Siri, you're, you studied physics and then you became an engineer, right? Yes. So you kind of knows, you know, the boundaries of reality. So yes, that makes a little help. Like, I know, I know we could do this because it's physically possible. But you wait, you said you're also both of you were worked at a law firm too. Yeah, I was an engineer there. Oh, okay. Yeah, on the software side. I was a database engineer using SQL server. Did you ever imagine you would go from that to what you're doing now. I've known that I want to spend time making art. Growing up, I just didn't know how much of an active role that will take career wise or day to day wise. And it was easy choice during my academic years to follow my intellectual pursuits. And that kind of turned me into an engineer when that intellectual pursuits meets like the reality of like financial sustainability. And but I kept searching for more. And beautifully, when my search was happening, I was introduced to Burning Man and Josh and our crew. And slowly that just like, like melded together. And what I, the drive to want to make art as a hobby became like, why not that? Why can't that be the thing that I want to pursue? Yeah, yeah, so it started as a personal experiment. Like, yeah, let's see. Let's see what happens if I do this in an active role. And since then, I haven't looked back. Did you two go to Burning Man before you had your first installations there? Yes. Josh invited me to my first burn in 2015 while we were supposed to still working at the law firm. And Josh, that was before you did the giant flamingo. Yeah, let's see. My first year was 2014. And then I had made a small project in 2016 that Sri actually helped me out with but that was like a two week build very casual didn't take over our lives. Nobody got hurt. We didn't break anything. And after that, like, I, you know, I did undergrad for art. I've always loved art and life gets in the way and somehow going to Burning Man, I would say really kind of reignited that passion for art. And just the fact that it went from building a small like two week project to applying for this little grant, getting the grant, it was this huge inspiration to just start going and our friend Cody, who's also co founder looking up. He kind of egged us on really hard. He's like, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity if you're making this giant flamingo you should make it, you know, everything. You're like, let's just make it big. Let's make it, you know, affordable out of paper mache or something like, you know, something that we can actually build. He's like now go, go crazy go big make it, make it so big and so strong that 20 people can stand on it and, you know, massive steel frame and some somehow it is encouragement we got completely out of control. That's a result. We created the biggest flamingo that has four legs. No way ever ever. Yeah. Wow. Is it in the Guinness Book of World Records. It turns out it's a commercial enterprise you have to pay them to be on there. Oh, no. Wow. There's some Guinness Guinness people at Burning Man that are that are burners. Yeah, was was there specific music or art event that inspired you to start creating installations. I know you already said like a burning man but maybe when you're younger like for instance when I was like 15. I had the opportunity to go to Coachella. And I don't know that that just blew my mind because I never went to anything like that, especially at that age and like seeing like these giant installations and just the performances. That kind of like made me just always be fascinated with interactive art and performance in general. So do you have any maybe younger experiences like before Burning Man that may have inspired you. I would say the younger experiences are more on the, like, I don't know, I don't want to say uninspiring side, but it always seems so daunting. Like, you know, you see these amazing installations that like my mind you're, you don't know, you know, there's these there's these mind blowing things where you're like how am I ever going to be able to do something that huge like that audacious. You know, and get you know invited to do it it's the the whole you know how do you make it and then how do you get it shown is so hard to grasp. And then I'd say Burning Man changed the philosophy for me because if you can somehow do it. That's all that matters. And between the two of us, we have such a strange skill set that I think we could do just about anything. Yeah, you guys like legal side and the building side. Yeah, if you can build it and get it there and assemble it that's all that matters you don't have to really get permission. It's kind of amazing. I think something interesting that you mentioned in your inspiration that I see in your projects to is this idea of accessibility, because Burning Man gave you the opportunity to like create this when you had seen all those other projects and I mean the the idea of like getting shown places in the art world is like, like a whole other beast and being able to do that through Burning Man seems amazing and then your, your projects are accessible in the way that people are able to interact with them. Like both physically and also like metaphorically to even like you're able to change the rainbow with different lights and like different images as well to engage with like the specific event that it is which I think is so cool. So I almost I kind of see that like in your projects. Yeah. I think that the inspiration between like doing the nonprofit stuff was that we felt really lucky that we're able to put together a team and, you know, all of the resources in order to like make these huge projects and get it done and get it delivered. And at least for me like the moment that clicked when we decided to do it was like, what if other people had access to these resources like what if, you know, obviously like, like we're good at just getting it done. And if we other artists come in and we just encourage them and push them and, you know, share the knowledge on how to put things on trucks, but you know how to build it in a way that is both, you know, good structurally but also for getting it done and getting it delivered and so. Yeah, I would say like we really want to share that because we just like art getting made. Yeah, that's that's an awesome philosophy. You're just like fractaling out just like making it, you know, giving all that knowledge to a bunch of other artists and I think it's cool you're passing on to kind of what you got the opportunity to have that fire under you to be able to make that installation just because you know they gave you they gave you the green light to do it like, and you had no clue how to make it I mean well you didn't know all the aspects of making it but you had that vision and you know you you fulfilled it that's awesome. And I think they, they, you know, they're really clever in the way they do those grants, and the best part was is by accepting the grant I was required to use the structural engineers to make it to this their safety requirements, costing us more than the grant. Oh my god. Once you once you go that far with it you can't really turn back and I think they, they know like that big push really helps people. I'm really good. You mentioned that you did did like an earlier you helped out on an earlier installation at Burning Man before the flamingo what was like the nature of that one. Yeah, it was, we just call it the wings it doesn't really have a very good name. I built it with my friend Opal three and it's a small set of stairs that you walk up and there's a 25 foot wide pair of wings covered in LEDs. Wow, and moving your arms around. Change the LEDs. Cool. And three said that you barely started making art, kind of like in 2018. Did you have any, like, did you try experimenting a little bit before that, or that kind of was the moment that you're exactly was the moment you jumped in. Yeah, rainbow bridge was the moment I jumped in. Yeah, especially when it comes to installation art. That was the moment and kind of also answering your previous question for me, Burning Man was the first festival. I didn't even go to a real big musical concert before. So for me, it's like going into my first burning man was in a way like life changing as far as what art can be have a music musical stage can be and all of that. So, and you can see that I was able to embed all that I loved at Burning Man into rainbow bridge as much as possible. Whether it's making sure it has addressable LEDs, like fighting for the pixel density and making sure they are both covered at two sides of the rainbow and to have dedicated computers for each side. So they're independent from each other. Yeah. What a first festival to go to. It's about him and his belief and what's possible where like the first art project you do, like, starting out with 25,000 LEDs is insane. It was daunting. It, it's the first three months while Josh is working with the engineers and getting the fabricators together. I was going to local hack community hacker communities like noise bridge and understanding choices that I need to make and I was there is a ticking time. I need to both design execute and deliver within the next six to eight months. And I know conceptually what LEDs, but to take that concept and, and to understand what I can buy off the shelf what I can make with that has to happen in that very short period of time. And remember, experiencing stressful like nights sometimes weeks, trying to cram everything I can making good choices, finding the right teammates collaborators, making decisions about things that I haven't yet learned, whether it's what software to use, what kind of power supplies to use how it's important to use by the proofing. When it comes to having these electronics out in the elements. A lot of leaps of faith overnight Wikipedia cramming, trusting people's opinion or choosing to trust someone's opinion or the others. You had a documentation problem back then so but for for when you're doing like that kind of stuff do you document all you have like notebooks and stuff. Yeah, I came long ways since law firm and since the first rainbow build. And now we have, especially for the electronics and the software team we have build diaries where we every day. We document all the issues we found all the interesting artifacts we found, whether it's, and we are encouraged to go down as detailed as what panel on the rainbow, and down to what row and what column there was a pixel failure, what did we do. And all of that. And it's very helpful for the next build. I'm really interested about like the process that goes into like each build and things like that. Also specifically, like the ideation process like where you draw inspiration from as well and like how you decide to take an idea to the next step. I love, like, what's up. It changes it changes every single project. Yeah. I consider myself an idealist, and I also love pop culture. These are the two things that kind of define my childhood and I love bringing my values and ideas from this desire for idealism and pop culture into the projects. For example, in Rainbow Bridge. We've done visuals that do it nostalgic honors to Pac Man, which was a big hit. We had in the end cat, going across the rainbow with the tunes. I'm one of my like personal project after Rainbow Bridge. The first one was building a an interactive flying spaghetti monster. Which to me is like the a good symbol of fight for the separation of state and schools freedom of speech freedom of speech. So yeah, those are these is how I find inspiration. What about you Josh. Okay, so it definitely changes every single project. It's for me it's always like a scavenger hunt where you're kind of like looking at all these different things and trying to find to the kind of fit together in a way that makes something new and special. And then you like start, there's like a salesmanship that starts happening with your friend group. Like people you think might be interested in it until you, you know you you pitch your ideas and you can see on people's faces what sticks and what doesn't stick. And like once you see something that's really sticking. Other people start getting excited and then it kind of snowballs into a bigger and bigger thing. I'm wondering to like in the technical sense, how does the ideation work out like you do like a lot of sketching or like does an idea almost come like fully formed because some of some of your works have like interactive touch sensors and some of them have like they it's more like the LED lights or visuals. And there's like so many different like sub mediums within the installation until like which idea comes first or do they all kind of just like in one time. I mean, rainbow bridge was a, I guess a dream before we really thought about building it for burning in. And that came from, I'd say, after building phenocopters Rex that giant flamingo after building that we learned so many lessons about moving large objects and we spent all this time building the frame for it and once we built the frame for the body we were like, we could build another one. And half the time, and then we could build a third one and a quarter of the time if we wanted to. And so we started thinking about doing like reproducible parts and kind of consistency and the methodology and then from there it. I was thinking about like I was it Roman key stoning that if we built all the same sections that as long as we did it with an odd number we'd be able to do it. And I couldn't find any other project those done in the same way with an open open arch and then you got to find like the perfect. I don't know the perfect design for what is something you can make an arch. Okay. Do you do like 3d printing I see like a 3d printer in your background. Yes. I started doing 3d printing in June last year. We're working on a pink torch project in Oakland in San Francisco so we just I started 3d modeling after rainbow bridge so rainbow bridge was all. All the initial stuff was done in Photoshop, and then handed over to the structural engineers and then came back, but it was surprisingly close because if you if you think about it it's it's really a two dimensional shape. Like all the important parts are two dimensional so we learned a lot and once we, you know, liked getting to design parts and didn't like designing some other parts like I started doing the 3d modeling so I can take a little bit more control over it. Yeah it's awesome it's a it's a great way to like idea and see it like in person. And, but also my 3d printer is like always having problems and it's like you're always doing maintenance on it and trying to get the layers to stick or it's always something, but it's fun and when it works. It's like I genuinely. I thought when I got this 3d printer that I was going to be using it in every single art project I'll be working on for the next six months. And then you start finding the character and the tool. And you're like, oh you need a babysit this thing. Yeah, especially for the first layer or something or. Yeah, we do a lot of like 3d prints. Before COVID we do a lot of 3 prints the library and sometimes we leave them overnight you know it looked like it's going good. And you get back and then you have like a spaghetti monster of filament just like everywhere. Do you have a favorite or most challenging installation that you've worked on or maybe even just like a lesson that you like a big lesson you've learned from, you know one of those installations. Cone down comes to my mind. I don't know about Josh. After the success of framework bridge actually with the ongoing success of rainbow bridge we came into this concept for burning man 2019 with like a lot of ambitions and be dreamt of just various bills and whistles that we want to add to this project, which is like a 30 foot tall upside down melting ice cream cone. And like to name few things we wanted a dance floor, where the scoop dripped to be for sensitive so people can dance on it and then the pixels that are underneath the dance floor will interact with them and then the floor is made of believe plexiglass. The whole scoop and the cone they're made of corrugated plastic and initially vacuum formed polycarbon plastic for scoop. And like we haven't used for census before that we haven't vacuum formed plastic before that. And on top of that we wanted a trust extending from the top of the cone for areas to play on top of while, while they're on top of the dance floor hanging from 30 feet tall. And so, all of these dreams totally achievable with a time that students of timber, and unfortunately be experienced a series of events whether it's delays or not finding a vacuum former on time, and, and gave us one of the hardest bill experiences that we were faced as a team. We walked out of rainbow bridge with. I'd say a little bit a little too much confidence. After you know after it went to Burning Man we got to bring it to our basil Miami. And that was a really good build and we were so we're like, let's take every single thing we loved about rainbow bridge and then everything we, you know, fix everything we hated about it, make it. Rainbow bridge was flat on both sides. And so the design was really like very two dimensional. The LED design was very 3D. The interactivity was so much more complicated. We wanted to read these massive steel sections for rainbow bridge that every time we moved them needed a forklift. So the dream was to build the steel frame that humans could lift and move around. The rainbow bridge had to go on to a flat truck to transport it and we're like what if we built a thing that can fit into any container and any truck. And so we got really always ambitious. The number of design features we wanted to add. And when with rainbow we had done scene seeing and electrical design and all these things we've never done before. And it worked out. It was hard, but it worked out. And then with cone down, we're like, okay, now that we've learned all these things rather than take the lesson. We want to keep going and learn more things. And so we did learn more things. When you start a new project, do you like kind of scale things back or do you still find yourself kind of inching like taking another step forward and trying to do something more complicated? Or do you think you too found like a sweet spot? We're still finding a sweet spot, but our tendency is to take newer steps. Yeah, great. Learning is fun. You're setting your masters at Cal State Long Beach. What kind of masters is it? I know it's for fine art, but sculpture. Oh, sculpture. Okay. That's awesome. Yeah, one of our coworkers Courtney, her professor was Brittany ransom. I think she, Ryan told me she's your professor as well and her stuff is really cool. Yeah, and she I'm learning a lot from her class. It's, it's fun. Like, I guess I was dabbling in the digital digital side before like, now she's getting us to actually learn the correct way to do things. I love, I love that you guys like never stop learning and that like your philosophy is kind of never stop worrying and like keep like being ambitious about it. And I have so much respect about how optimistic you are about it too because I feel like I might have walked away from a project like the upside and cone, like, in defeat but you guys sound so like, like happy that it happened like regardless of all of the like challenges that happened along the way. And in our heart and in our hearts and still success. We had a event during the day where a camp at burning man that has kids came by and we gave them ice cream. We had aerialist performances, one of our camp mates did her performance for the first time publicly. We had art cars with DJ that came by parked around the cone down and did DJ sets. We had DJs that climbed up the cone and did their sets from the top. It's a 30 foot tall steel rigging ladder. It didn't like carrying all their DJ gear. You design a pulley system like a little elevator system for equipment. One more question about that 2.0. Yeah, for the vacuum former that you needed. Did you need like an industrial size one or something or was it like, just a normal, a normal. industrial size vacuum former is but I've seen like DIY ones, but then I've also I can't say long we should actually have a vacuum former. I'm going to be using that very soon I'm very excited that's a four by four. Okay. When we first started talking about cone down and this is, you know, going from the, the dreaming side to the practical side. We thought about light diffusers and being able to build one mold and use the, you know, the cone is the same on all eight sides. So we thought we'd be making the same light boxes over and over and over to go around it. And I genuinely dream that we'd be able to easily vacuum form four by eight sheets with like no problem. And turns out that's really hard. I think we called up maybe 20 different companies to see if we could rent their vacuum formers. And we'd tell people what the project was and we'd expect them to be really excited and be like, sure, come in use the machine and know. So we ultimately built our own and it was hard. Just bouncing up and said earlier about, you know, your willingness to learn I think that's awesome and I do think a lot of people. They do just like stop being down to learn something new and it's cool that you know, it's everything is nothing is really a barrier it's just like something you could learn to you know build build something to get over it and learn how to do it. That's really cool. And I'm sure the people you work with in the foundation are like for sure inspired by just like anything's possible really if you just try and put the time. I mean it may take forever to do it but you could definitely do it's not impossible. I think I think the saying is, you know, there's a there's a bad solution. And if you got a bad solution you have a solution and then you work on finding a better one. Yeah, everything's everything's a step towards progress. Cool. So I think we have just like one or two more questions to ask you guys. So we wanted to know like what's happening with looking up arts for the future, like everything is not really happening right now with the current situation in the world. But I noticed on your website you guys are still like putting out plans for the future. And I wanted to highlight take out lanterns project that you guys are doing that seems really cool and very relevant to what's going on. And then other projects have 2021, like as the date next to them so what what's what's happening what's going to happen. Do you want to take the take out. Oh yeah, take out. Okay. Take out was my dream early in 2020. When I was like what what would be a concept that captures what's happening in a cheerful uplifting way. At the same time, like pay homage to in a sense essential workers and what's keeping them going. And again and again food was coming into my head and what how restaurants and what they're doing for the society whether it's for essential workers or people at home. They're doing this essential service that is kind of keeping us happy when everything else is not happening. And so from that, and from all the leftover corrugated plastic from condom project. The vision just aligned to create this organ inspire take out boxes and turn them into lanterns of hope and find graphics that are relatable locally, whether it's the skyline of the cities that like I'm from. Or have like, Peace Pugoda from Japan town and whatnot and and try to find collaborators like at restaurant level to see if they would like to host this lantern on their by their windows so that's how it all started. And it has been. It's also like one of the design constraints I had in mind when thinking about it is to make sure it's covered friendlies, like one or two people can do an entire lantern, whether it's via stagger schedule or meeting at one meeting in one safe location. So it was just a perfect concept for that. Yeah, I'm curious to see all the new installation art that comes out with these new constraints, but I mean constraints could be, you know, useful sometimes to push boundaries in a different way. As far as the foundation with kind of things got aligned towards the future well in terms of the art space. We were able to increase our footprint at our current workspace and as like the previous tenants are moving out due to the decisions they're making in turn, due to COVID. So, in other words, I'm actually working on making our workspace of the looking up our art foundation functions at a bigger more welcoming place for the community to come and make art once things open up. Wow, bring in some more teams. I mean, honestly, that that's the people and the space is kind of what made it all. And so, right now it's all, we're trying to get it ready for when things start opening up again. But once we take over more of the space that means there's more room for more than just our small team, we can have more than one our team going at once and I think it'll be really fun, especially when like the skills bleed over from one team to another. That's a great question. We asked this to our guest. Do you two have any memorable library experiences. Yes. Rainbow Bridge was really born in a library. Like when I was on the hunt for inspiration, I ended up in the San Francisco Public Library historical stacks and going through all the old photos and brochures from the Golden Gate International deposition. And there was a sculpture of a rainbow that I found there that really kind of started us down this path of building a giant rainbow. That's an awesome library connection. Yeah. Yes, I think this should be a testament for patrons that they can create this in the library and then see it come into fruition and grow into what you guys have today. Like that's awesome. And I think like all of our library patients should do that. There's something definitely about a library where if you don't know what you're looking for when you're looking for inspiration. That that is a special place because when you're just browsing the internet you usually get what you're looking for. And if you're looking for something completely surprising. Yeah. Awesome. How about you. A funny one comes up to my mind. In college years, I was able to hack one of the library computers to install a Korean MMORPG game and played for extended periods of time without getting caught. That's awesome. Ingenuity at a young age. You do you install it on every computer. Not only the ones that I only need to do enough to not get caught and be able to like play. Yeah. I knew my boundaries meant to uninstall them to like destroy the evidence and move it to the computer. Well, thank you so much, both of you for joining us today for web chat Wednesdays. I had so much fun listening to, you know, your whole process, and I appreciate you giving your time to us. And where can our library patients find your work and learn more about looking up arts. Instagram would be great. Our Instagram handle is looking up arts. And we also have a website looking up dot art and Facebook page. Awesome. Well, we will put all the links on the description as well. Thank you so much. Thank you for that episode of web chat Wednesdays.