 What's up everybody, it's Lady J Bookums and it's Brandman Sean and this is the Music Mavericks podcast Lady J, what do we have today? Man, so we got a couple of different things, we're going to take y'all here and then take y'all there. Okay, so I want to first start with something that's really good for artists to know. One thing I wanted to talk to you is about platforms, like what platforms should independent artists really be taking advantage of like right now, like if you had to say the three top platforms, what would it be? Three top platforms? Three, maybe two, but like... So let's do this, let's focus on platforms that artists probably don't hear, talk about as much as they're also there. So at the top of the newer platforms is TikTok, we already know about that and people have seen me talk plenty about that and we'll get into that even a little bit more here. But then we have Dub Smash. Dub Smash. And then we have Triller and we also have a platform called Loom. Loom. All right, so those are four platforms that we can touch on a little bit in different ways, but it's definitely something that artists should look out on, but also I want to talk about obviously some of these platforms just because I'll give my perspective because people ask me about them all the time. Right, so two that you said, TikTok and Triller. Okay. I had to say it slow because I didn't want to mess with that because I really would be wanting to say, all right, but Triller, because they're kind of similar. So I was trying to figure out like which one is better and what is the, is there a difference between TikTok and Thriller? Triller? Yeah. What is the difference? Like what's the biggest difference? When you want to get into the technical stuff, the differences are like how the algorithm flows, how you get seen content, a few different philosophies on how they build out the platform. But from a consumer standpoint, they're pre-dag on similar, right? Right. They look kind of the same. They look kind of the same. Obviously, some of the buttons, whatever, all that stuff is different, but when we think about it from an artist standpoint, just a utility standpoint, yes, there's videos that get made on Triller that do well and you're still tapping into an audience and audience exists, but at the very least, we got to look at the numbers. Right. Yeah. Triller is over 1.2 billion downloads at this point, right, and 800 million active daily users last time that I checked. Wow. That's nifty. Last time I checked, but when we look at the other one, Thriller, Thriller is only about, they're not even 20 million active daily users. I think they're around 13 million, right? Okay. We're talking about 13 million compared to 800 million, just the possibilities for your songs. When we talk about viral on one platform versus viral on another, your song will be failing on TikTok and only have 13 million in comparison to your top, top, top, right? You're reaching 13 million people if you reach everybody on the platform who's active when we talk about Triller. So that alone creates a lot of different opportunity or a different way that you should be perceiving it. Yes, TikTok is the big pond. You got to figure out how to move and navigate that. It doesn't mean you ignore Triller completely. Right. Because I was just about to say, if Triller has a smaller fan base, it's almost like, sometimes when you go into the bigger, I mean, the smaller pond, you can be the big fish in that smaller pond. So it's like, I would say work both of them, but if you stepped into that whole Triller atmosphere and you can kind of get yourself built up there because they don't have a whole bunch of people, but it's still enough people for you to be that person that becomes known to take it to the next level, like, because every platform don't start out at like billions of people, right? No. You know what I mean? So it's like, is it good to kind of get into that platform now while it's smaller, because you can possibly get picked up instead of like going over the TikTok where you're like really competing with all these different types of artists. Yeah. So the thing is, that was devil's advocate again. So the thing is, though, people are people. Views are views. That's a fact. So if I get seen by a hundred million people that like it like positively versus 13 million people that like it positively, that's still better, right? So when I look at Tick Triller, some of the best videos by some of the biggest celebrities and people I know that are getting support from the platform in the background, they didn't have even a million views, right? Which was disappointing to me knowing that I ran plenty of campaigns where I'm getting to the tens of millions of views on TikTok, right? But knowing how to navigate the platform and how to translate that over. But again, I also have, you know, people, partners, big managers with huge artists that are still leveraging Tick Triller as well. So you can, as an artist, a lot of times I say focus when you're indie and you don't even know one platform trying to play, oh, I'm going to do this over here and then I'm going to do this over there and try to mix up the sauce. It doesn't really make sense for an artist is upcoming because you're just cutting off your arm before you have every time of the time to develop because you need to be able to master a platform, understand the nuances. These campaigns aren't as easy as I just pay an influencer or something like that and it just starts popping off people. And that's that's why a lot of people feel it TikTok campaigns, right? They think, oh, all I got to do is pay these people while they're cheap. But it's so much more to it, so much more nuance to it and understand how to read it, make real time decisions. What? That's a shameless plug. The TikTok music training, TikTok music promo.com link in the bio. All that good stuff is going to happen. But but that that'll be the beginning of your education. But there's so much more to it as a whole on how you become successful with these campaigns. So don't split your attention. I'll say that even when we start talking about the dub smash and and loom, which I'll talk about. But those aren't necessarily these don't all have to be active paid campaigns. So when we're talking about paid campaigns, definitely don't split your attention at the beginning. But maybe if you have time to navigate, play on, post on and get a feel for what these platforms work like, then you can do that. So shifting to Triller specifically, we have to look at. TikTok is almost like popland. And when I say popland, it's just reached a level of commercial success. It doesn't mean there's not niches. There's playing niches in music that are successful on TikTok because they have a hundred million people. That's right. They are in some countries. You know what I mean? So don't think, oh, when people say stupid stuff like, oh, only this kind of genre is popping on the platform. No, you can't tell me that there aren't people who like other types of music when it's that many people just like people complain. Oh, only this type of music gets attention these days. No, that's what the media is focusing on. But all these other niches, there's there's people who are super lyrical and getting that got a million followers on YouTube and millions, millions of Spotify. You got to tap into your niche. Right. You have to understand and navigate platform and put in the work to figure it out as opposed to going with this service opinion and listening to other artists who don't necessarily know what they're talking about, either. Right, right, right. Well, Triller is focused on the urban category, though, right? And you know, urban really look black music, rap, hip hop. Let's let's just say that that's what they're focused on. Literally, dub smashed is focused on the same thing. So if you're outside of those, then I wouldn't even recommend you even try to get into that. TikTok has pretty much branches to all of that stuff, especially since if you're a hip hop artist, we know so much of commercial music right now is inspired by using some of those same notes, beats, all that all that good stuff. Right, yeah. So Triller, dub, slash are more urban focused. Lume out of all these is a completely different thing. So what is Lume? All right, so Lume is like Spotify with social media. Maybe the direction Spotify could have went when they were early on, they actually had some social media aspects and comments and things like that. So imagine you have fans who are going on the platform to listen to music. That's what the platform is about. Right. So you can find music on Lume. You can find music on Lume. Right. You can stream and all that good stuff. But then also the artist can post, right? You go to my page, you're listening to my music. You also also see my post. There's playlist. All like there's that whole aspect listening to music. But then there's also the opportunity for the artist to communicate and and build community, not only with other artists, but with the fans themselves. So can the fans post comments? Can the fans post comments? Yes. Like so they. So it's really social media, but it's really. But it has music. But it's really. Right, exactly. And because of the psychograph, right? Of those type of users here early, these are the people who are more, more likely to listen to music that's not already popular because they identify with listening to things early. They want to be the first. Right. Yeah. Right. So they have a higher tolerance for sifting through some of the music that might be trash or not trash, because there's a high reward to them of finding that thing that that's that gym that nobody else knows about. Right. So so right now, if an artist had to pick. Like I want to because I know you're saying, like, don't split your focus. But like using TikTok is kind of different than utilizing Loom. So would it be beneficial to be like, OK, if I'm trying to get at least like two or three platforms to really go in on, like, maybe you should do TikTok and Loom because they offer two different things for you as an artist. So Loom is going to give you more of the social aspects where you can communicate with your fan base and communicate with other artists as they're listening to your music. And then TikTok is going to give you that the aspect to where, you know, people are creating content with your music, you know, is running your streams up is, you know, doing all these other things. So they kind of like would be beneficial to do both or not. If I had to pick for it right now, I mean, out of that for it, if I had to pick two, it would definitely be those two. Because again, TikTok, you can try to be in their posts and like create content from that standpoint. The other one isn't about content creation in that same way. Right. It's more about fan engagement, offering value. When we talk about Loom and the streaming, the music is a lot more centered around that. The content creation is the posting on TikTok. But then when we talk about running campaigns, I don't know of a way where you would be running campaigns on Loom at the time. So it's truly a organic grassroots type feel. Right. Even if you choose Loom right now, but you don't have iOS, you know, Apple, Loom's not going to choose you at the moment. Oh, so you have to have an Apple product? So you do have to have an Apple product at the time. You know what I mean? Which that's going to eliminate a lot of folks. That's going to change, but that's just the reality of the marketplace right now. So that also tells you how new it is, because a lot of apps and stuff when they start, they start out with? Most of them start with the iOS, you know, with the uppities. Yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, painter. OK. Not on Sundays. But there's a lot of value, and it's still a new space. There is so much to learn. I've had a chance to speak with some of the people over there and their philosophy and focus on indie and that early aspect of the artist's career is promising versus some of these other platforms where it's just more commerce, let's make money, and which is cool. All that's cool, right? Especially when you get to a certain point. But in terms of them, they even say they would like people to graduate past that platform. So they don't even want you to necessarily be on Loom together forever. At least as of now, that's the language that I've heard where I get on Loom, I build this huge mass of audience. And yeah, we don't want you to not get on Spotify and all these other things, but we can help you build that groundswell and really engage with your community in that way. Now, question, are they just an app or can you access them on the computer as well? I believe they're just an app. I don't know. That's a good question. Yeah, I'll find out. Or somebody hit Google and find out quickly enough. I'm not connected to the internet right now. Right. I was wondering, because some apps are starting to allow you to do stuff on the computer as well, and vice versa. So I was just wondering, especially because you can communicate with people and start groups and all of that. Exactly. Before I forget, though, because this has been a pet peeve of mine. Let me make sure I'm at the mic because I know the audio has been tripping sometimes. But a pet peeve of mine that I've been facing or just seeing certain commentary is the way artists are pushing back against platforms like TikTok based on their own superficial perception of what is like and outside of doing the work, understanding what's actually existing on the platform, that there are so many other types of music that are winning on the platform and understand that you don't even have to be this content creator going super heavy to have success on the platform. There's so many ways to be successful on a platform like TikTok. And while I'm starting with TikTok, it's also because it's idea, oh, only this type of music wins on the platform. No, there's specific types of songs. So you can have, there's no one artist where I would say market all your music on TikTok. There's no one artist where I would say market, do a music video for every single song, right? Do it, don't do, don't market all of your music on YouTube or all like that. You have to understand that there's channels that take place. So don't rob yourself of new marketing channels just because you're going with this surface level of attention. You have to think like a promoter, like a marketer when you think about marketing your music, not this whole identity that you have where you say, oh, this looks like young kids or oh this, and you're basing it off of stuff that has nothing to do with anything. I hear a lot of artists say that as I was been talking about TikTok, the main thing is like, they're like, yo, TikTok is for kids, like, you know, or TikTok used to be like musically or whatever. It's always Instagram. Right, so they're like, yo, there is just kids, a bunch of kids on there. And then they feel like they always have to do these like funny videos where, you know, cause you know how you got the clips and stuff. So they like, man, I'm gonna have to like get out my element pretty much and be childish to put like a video on TikTok. Artists were creative though. Like, I think a lot of artists will be creative. I think so many artists right now, so many artists just think it's like a thing now they're doing it for, I don't know, I just want the money, the streams and all these other things that so many of them aren't actually creative because just because people are winning in one way on a platform, that doesn't mean you have to like submit to that way. There might be another creative format, whether yours might be a little bit more jury, right? There's always the anti. So if there's that many people on the platform, there are some people who are into the emo thing. Some people are into happy go lucky. Some people are into dancing. Some people, there's literally TikTok. There's just one TikTok page I came across. This girl's just staring at the screen, bro. Like, that's it. Like, and it has millions of views, right? And I'm like, that's basically all she's doing. It's another dude who has like a shark that he's talking and doing. Like there's this one girl that's weird and it's a little creepy the stuff she does, but that goes across with, that goes with certain types of music. So like there's so many different aspects, but you can't be afraid to show your creativity and market your creativity. Everybody is so busy trying to hack the game of what's already existent. Like, what do you have that's unique? Outside of your music, right? Cause, okay, now we can say, oh, yeah, you do what you, you do your thing on your music. But is that the only creative form of expression? Do you have no visual aspects of creativity? Like, I don't know. I get frustrated by artists that refuse to be artistic and creative and only look to what's winning and they, because they always are gonna end up behind the curve anyway. Oh, this is only for kids. And then once all their peers are doing and everybody else is winning, then they're gonna get on it and try to do what they're doing. You're already behind the curve. You already are gonna take the L because careers aren't made out of just talent. It's not made out of just money and resources. It's also made in moments. There's certain windows of opportunity that happen where you get exponential results. And then once that window passes, you can go triple as hard as that other person did, but they walk through the door. Your ass is trying to break through the wall as opposed to just walking through the door when everything was a lot easier. So you're not gonna get the same results or you're gonna have to put way more in just to get there. I think with all of the different tools that we have now to just get ourselves in front of the people, I think that it has crippled our artists now of this generation because they don't have to work as hard to get to the fan base. They don't have to do all the things that a lot of people had to do years ago to make themselves stand out. I feel like artists years ago was just different in their own sense anyway. It wasn't like, oh, I need to be like this group or I need to be like this rapper. A lot of people had their own identity. So when they were putting out their creative work, it really spoke to who they are. But I think now is like, a lot of artists are basically taking on the identity of other people just because they feel like this is what's selling. So they only want to be as creative as what they see. You know what I mean? So it's like, if they don't see their favorite rappers all on TikTok, busting down videos and all of this stuff, they feel like that's not something that I probably need to do. And this is probably more so for the rap community or the urban community, not more like the singers, but like rappers because they like, yo, I'm not, you know what I mean? Like they don't see anybody that they are familiar with doing this. Now they might see a whole, you can see like a whole bunch of the users might make some a song to, who's a rapper? What kind, Lil Nas X, J. Cole? No, Lil Nas X is not the rapper we're talking about. J. Cole? A J. Cole or somebody a little harder, like a young doff? Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, right, yeah. So it's like those type of artists, you're not seeing like that type of content being created on. You're seeing more of the funner songs like Lil Nas X. There's somebody who is literally that type of music and I know the person that does their marketing and killing it. So you're the plug. And do that thing. You know what I mean? So where am I the plug? What does he know? I mean, it's not even about knowing, knowing them. I don't gotta introduce you to somebody else's marketer. I do the junk for you. Like, I already have artists that are doing. There's one song that I would consider one of the most successful songs that I'm doing right now on TikTok. And I mean, I don't know what category you would call it. But it's not just even a regular rap. It's a little bit more harder and a little bit more grit. And then there's another song that I don't even know what genre to call it. But people are rocking with it and the artist is super delighted. Like, you know what I mean? Right. And it like, I don't even know what genre to call that. It's kind of weird. I think, but that's what I'm seeing is like, when people, you know, when people can't see it, they really don't believe in it sometimes, you know what I mean? But that's why I just want to see more point of view, perspective and thoughtfulness when it comes to artists. Because that's one of the greatest ways to stand out. The greatest artists that we know, they all stand out due to those things that we just talked about. Like, but they have a way of seeing things, a way of doing things. And that's why you can mock them. You can talk like Drake and make up some statements and people are like, oh yeah, you mimicking Jake. Or you mimicking Jake Cole. Or are you mimicking Jay-Z? Like, you can hear because they talk in a certain way. They put things together and express in a certain way. Right. So you, as an artist, you need to be able to develop that. Not only, like, auditorially, visually. Be able to do both of those things because if you're just basing everything you build on hacking the game, that's where it dilutes. That's why I don't, I try to tell market, not markets. Artist, bro. Do your thing. Get in your hole, build all your stuff. Do your, do your, create your art. And then look at marketing. Like, I could take anything and then figure out where do I put it, piece it together. People are so focused on just, oh, I gotta do this, this way, I gotta go through this lane that they don't act, that they dilute their art because now they think I have to do that. Yes, you can actually build out a song to go be successful on this platform, this platform based on those formulas. Do that if you want to, that's your thing. Right. But also understand that when it comes to this marketing thing, packaging is the magic. And knowing where to place it is the magic. So if you have a song and you and your creative bag and it happens to be a super kitty song, I'ma place it after Barney, you know what I mean? If it's a harder song, then I'ma put it in a different place, you know what I mean? Like it's all, all those choices can be made. We just need there to be something unique there in the first place versus you thinking I need to do this or I need to do that. If you pick the marketing channels and placements and all those other decisions get made after a fact, you can't eliminate any platform completely because it might work for one song amazingly, it might not work for the next song. Right. Yeah. So I think like, well, basically artists need to start getting into their creative bags. 100%. We gotta get more creative with the content, the videos that, you know, everything about your process should just speak more to who you are like, let your personality come out a little bit more. And then target, you know, your music or target certain things on different platforms. Now, another platform you said was, what was it, idiom? What was that? Smash boom? Dub Smash. Dub Smash. So you said Dub Smash is more so for, like it's like an urban audience? Yeah, TikTok, Triller and Dub Smash are all in a similar space, right? It's the video driven and people create content around it, whether I'm talking over a movie or if I'm doing stuff to music. All of those are in the same category. Dub Smash has, well, at their peak, they definitely have more users than Triller, but they're trying to figure their life out right now. So I can't immediately say that you should invest heavily into it, but that doesn't mean that there's no value that you can hack out of it either. Now, what about driving your, or using like your other platforms to kind of drive your traffic there? Because I know I was talking to artists about TikTok and he was just like, well, you know, I don't have a TikTok. So I'm like, okay, we'll go ahead and create one. He was like, well, how do I get people over there? So I'm like, you know, you can get on your Facebook or get on your Instagram or get on these other platforms to try to drive those followers or those fans like back to TikTok. Like, should they go that route or is it like building your fan base on TikTok is just start, you starting to create that content, communicate with other TikTokers? I don't know. How do you go about like really getting people over to that platform so that you can kind of build up? All right, so TikTok isn't heavily built around what your friend group is immediately around you and creating a world around that perspective around that. That's how most social media is. TikTok is based off the algorithm and your interaction with that and we show you more of that world, right? So if you don't like what your TikTok looked like, you're looking in the mirror kind of. So like for real, I remember it was like a church group. They had to advise all their other people because they wanted to be on there to spread church word but then also watch the kids and all that stuff, make sure, not in the creepy way, like make sure it's not wild, you know what I mean? And they had to tell people in trains like, no, I know you don't like what you're seeing or some of these kids, but just if you don't like it, you know, like start to like the things that you do like what you see, right? And start to swipe past those and the algorithm is super sensitive. The algorithm is more sensitive than most of these other ones. When it comes to what it's showing you and reacting to it, that's what your world look like. But when it comes to translating the audience over, I wouldn't focus heavily on going Facebook to Instagram and pushing those over to TikTok. I would do TikTok and pushing it to the other ones, right? Because what you'll find is for one, people translate over to those others from TikTok, a lot easier than the other way around. But yes, maybe to get a little bit of like attention on TikTok and it might be nice to do it, especially if you are somebody who already has a fan base. But if you don't, that's not, you know, okay, maybe post. Here's my TikTok here, put it in your IG bio, but I wouldn't even waste any energy on it. I would try to become good at TikTok and get those people to the other platforms. Okay. So I also had some, and I think you, I'm sure that you have this in your training because we know, y'all don't know, Bramishon has the TikTok training. TikTok music secrets training. Right. So it also, I'm guessing will cover how to even get your music on there. That's free, by the way. Yes. Right. You know, because I did have artists like, because I know they have different type of ways. So an artist was asking me like, do I just get on TikTok and basically record myself with my music playing on the background? So I was telling him like, no, you can actually get your music on the platform, you know? And a lot of people were still trying to figure out like, how do you do that? You know, and I'm like, the same way you would get your music like on Instagram stories, pretty much. Isn't it? Like. Kind of sort of. So. From your- Distra Kid definitely allows you to do that. Right. And there, I think there's another one that got added on recently, I can't remember. But other than that, you can old school it and all you need is the sound. You don't need the full song because no one's gonna be using the full song. Right. There's a video that Kory did in our TikTok series. This is like back in August, 2018, type brand man TikTok series or something like that. It should start to pop up, how to get your music on TikTok. And also, I think we have a TikTok playlist at this point. But there's two different ways. You do it officially through there or you can just upload the sound because any video you record, technically becomes sound. And we're doing this and we post this on TikTok. Now somebody could take that sound and put it in that video. So you could put your music on in that same way. A lot of times I advise to do it that way. Not gonna go into those reasons because they say that we talked a lot about TikTok but it's really ain't necessarily a TikTok episode. I know. TikTok turned out to be the number one. I know, right? It just is what it is at this point. I always tell people, I'm not gonna create some new secretive like this is how you do it stuff when it doesn't exist. I'm gonna just tell you, look, this is what it is right now. And this isn't what it is because I'm predicting the future. This is what it is because this is what's happening. I'm seeing results and behaviorally paying attention to fans and people, not opinions of people will actually get you to the right place faster than everybody else. Right. It's important to be able to adapt, right? And stay up to date of what's going on because like every platform might not be here forever. You know what I'm saying? So it's like somebody is always coming out with something new that can be beneficial to you for multiple reasons, whether it's the, you know, find you a date or, you know, grow your fan base. Either way. So it's like we literally got to stay up to date and ride the wave, like ghosts ride the wave. Gary Vee says something that I actually, like I super agreed with it. I was already kind of thinking that way. So TikTok, Snapchat, all these things, right? All these platforms, some of them they might come and go. For one, if TikTok pops just like, let's say like Vine and then it dissolves that attention doesn't mean that it wasn't worth it. Right. Especially if you flip it, King Batch and so many of the other people who were Vine stars have full careers and millions of Instagram followers were able to translate over there. They're popping and they built off and they're doing everything that they want to do because they got a huge audience while it was free and easy on Vine and translated it to somewhere else. So you can't say it's not worth it. If you just don't win, you don't win. Okay, cool. That's just because you didn't do good on the platform or you didn't take advantage of it while it existed. But the bigger thing is understanding when it comes to marketing, you have to always think about the end customer, the end consumer because at the end of the day, remember before Facebook, you people were communicating through radio, TV and all those things, right? Before Instagram, people were communicating through Facebook and what people don't understand about these vehicles of communication is they don't only offer an opportunity to reach people and communicate with people, they also create a format in which the users like to be communicated with. So now somebody our age, they can be communicated with a short snippet, a tweet, you know what I mean? And that's cool with us where somebody else of a certain era might be like, bro, I need some more information. It's like you didn't really say anything, right? Or the certain banners, we're used to the quotes on IG and the way that aesthetic, so we can be marketed to in that way. There's a generation who's coming up TikTok first, right? And if you wanna be prepared and over some time, these people will wanna be communicated with in that way. That would be their first form of communication. A bigger, clearer explanation is text messaging. Yeah. It's like some people, you got a certain class like, bro, don't text me, call me, right? That's how I am. That's how they like to be, talk to. Call me, that's how you market. Have a conversation with me, give me a chance to talk back. Love me, you know what I mean? And then some people are like, no, just text me. And you can market to them based on those behaviors and understanding. So if you don't take time to at least understand how these platforms work, you're not gonna be able to understand how to reach this customer effectively. And that's why it's important to not take your own appends and stubbornness or whatever you got going on, you know, whatever afflictions is going on, pain, suffering, hate, whatever you got going on, right? You can't get it up out your spirit. You have to realize it's irrelevant. Right. Because the market is really built on principles and the principles don't give a damn about how you feel. The principles exist regardless of who's using them good or bad, right? We'll see somebody become a dictator and offer some principles. We'll see somebody become a president offer some principles. We'll see somebody become Mother Teresa or some martyr offer the same principles, the exact same way of building the fan base, the exact same way of reaching out to a community. Well, okay. So look, we, I want to switch gears. So if y'all was looking for platforms, y'all got some good ideas by now. So a whole lot. This is the platform episode at this point. Right. You might have to switch some of the other stuff to another. I know, right? Because we kind of went in. I had some other stuff that I wanted to get to. So, you know, but we kind of went in. So you want to just, you know. No, we got, we got, look, we got, how long have we been on this? We got a solid 15 minutes. All right, all right. So I wanted to talk about something that's been happening recent that kind of goes along the lines with, you know, artists trying to figure out what to do or what to put out because ultimately, even though you are an artist and you have your creative mind and freedom of speech and everything, you know, I want to talk about how you being an artist and who you are and what you're speaking about and your music and what you're doing in the public is affecting other people, like your fans and the people who are kind of looking up to you. Cause I feel like right now, especially everybody that's using these platforms, like we're looking up to all of these artists as our idols, especially the younger generation. Like these are our idols. These are the people that's influencing us to do or not to do, to be or not to be, right? And... Okay, with the Shakespeare, I said, I feel sleazy. You help me. Okay. But I think it's like at an all time high right now because of the fact that we have social media and we're able to kind of reach out and touch these artists and access them and really like tap into like who they actually are in real life, right? And I think it's becoming an issue on one hand or you could say it's an issue or you could say it's not. But we had, you know, for recently we just had Juice World that passed away. And, you know, it's like he passed away. And it's like, once he passed away, we have all these people coming out. I can't believe this. And he's gone too soon and blah, blah, blah. But it's like all his music basically talked about was doing drugs, you know, being depressed, which is a big thing in our industry period. Entertainment, acting, you know, sports, all of that. You know, and it's like a lot of that is being our younger generation who are on Instagram and TikTok and all this stuff. Like those are the songs that people love. Those are the artists that people love. So I wanna talk about, you know, the fact that like, should we be really looking up and inspiring to be like these artists? You know what I'm saying? Like, they have so many issues and it's like, because a lot of artists, especially like the urban artists will come out and say like, yo, I'm nobody's role model. Like I'm not, a lot of people, like Cardi B kind of said that in the beginning, like a couple different people. Rihanna said that back in the day. Right, like they literally came out and said this like earlier in their career. I think before they got to the point where they was like, I am a role model because I understand all of the people who are looking up to me. It goes back to principles. It doesn't matter if you feel like you're a role model, whether you want to just being in a certain position, having both visibility and influence will make you a role model. Right. Because that's just how it works. So it's like you're signing up for this. Like so recently we had the whole Lizzo situation where Lizzo, first of all, why are you wearing your eyes? Got that thing, nah, nah. You just rolled your eyes. We got no camera now. She's wearing that thing and moving, doing her. Is that how she was? Lizzo. That was me trying to mimic the booty with the role model. Boy, so Lizzo pulled up to the game where her booty cheeks, her tee, long dress, whatever you want, extended, whatever, you know, cut out. Booty cheeks cut out with the black thong and then she was, you know, they put the song on. She turned around, first of all, you already know a girl about the twerk when she turned around and then her legs go out. Like she get that stance, you know what I mean? You already know. Stability. All right, you got to get it right. And then she just started, clap, clap, clap. You know, all the cameras went on her booty and then you had a lot of people who were just like, oh my God, you know, everybody was tweeting. A lot of people was not for it. And then we had some people that was like, yes, girl, do you, you know, because, right. Who thought are you on? Cause I feel like I'm on my side. What does that mean? I don't, all right. See, we, that's two different topics, like from the Lizzo to the Juice world, but it does go, like interrelate because of the influence. So let's put Juice world on the table for a second. And I'm gonna talk about how I just feel about the Lizzo situation. All right, go ahead. Outside of the other stuff that exists regardless. So just in general, yeah, man, I'm not, I wasn't feeling that. Like I didn't, I didn't understand why. Like I'm, I'm never been, I get that she has her own freedom expression, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I just thought it was just bad timing. It wasn't, it wasn't necessary. And then I'll leave it at that. Like I didn't, there wasn't any additional feelings. Oh, cause she looked this way, cause she, or cause it's that, it was just that simple. It's like, why? Like I've always been that person, you know, back, like in school where you have some of those people that just seem like they want attention. You know what I mean? They need, and they're doing that extra stuff. And it's like, you know that you're doing this for that. You act like you're not, and it's just you, but you're doing it for attention. That's what, that's what that kind of felt like to me. I don't know her. And that's exactly why she did it. But I'm just saying the way it comes off, right? And we like to, we like to say that we have no responsibility for the way people receive things. You know, that's just more immature as, but when you get old and realize, like, hey, if I'm in a relationship, yeah, I could say, I said it this way, not in me or this way, but if I want this thing to be productive, I gotta take some responsibility for how you received it, right? She has to at least understand that what that comes off like, what the environment is, and it just wasn't necessary. But like, do I care? No, no. Like, I don't like it, look, it, it, it. But for people who, because first of all, I think she has that kind of music that is really like inspiring to younger people, people who have issues with, you know, the way they look, they're not the norm, you know, they might be this or that or whatever. It's like, you know, her music is kind of like uplifting for those people who have been put down, you know what I mean? So. I get that. So do you think it, you know, when it comes to us being influenced or us looking up to people and idolizing people, you know, could that have been a moment where everybody, all the other big girls who don't even like to wear things that are fit in, they feel like I gotta wear a sweatshirt? You know, that could have been a moment to say to them, like, girl, your cheeks can be out, too. I know. Because first of all, it's been a. I don't care who you are, what you look like. Okay, cause I'm about to say, it's been cases where we have these celebrities that look more like a Rihanna or Nicki Minaj that go places half naked. But there's an environment, right? Like, all right, if you're one of those red carpets and you just try to make some artistic statement and bring all this upward, then okay, yeah, you do that and blah, blah, blah, right? But we're not gonna act like Kim Kardashian didn't get, like, speared for a lot of stuff she did. Yes, it became, she utilized that negative energy. Like, I don't even know anybody who really says they like Kim Kardashian. However, she has a huge career and a huge fan base. I'm like, where are these fans? Cause nobody around me ever said, I don't feel one way or another, but I never hear anybody who likes and a lot of things are because of this. Not, well, she has a whole lot of reasons people are like, like, or whatever. But the point is, people talked about her being naked or too much body and all those kind of things, right? And that goes with all these celebrities. So it's not just a, a Lizzo or I'm a big girl type thing, right? There's certain environments and I see that she said she didn't have her, her ass to the seat or whatever. Cause that was another thing. It's like, bro, just, just from a sanitary standpoint. Like that's like, you know, not wanting to be on Marta sometimes cause I get on the bus and then you see, yo, bro, this dude was sitting here and he did, you know, buddy kind of dirty or it's like, you know, he have, he did have his pants down. Like I don't see some weird stuff on the train. But like, like that's even from a sanitary standpoint, it's kind of like, all right, but she says she, I don't know, whatever. Maybe she didn't put her ass to the seat, right? But the whole, the whole thing about it for me is like, okay, so much of marketing and branding is getting attention. And of course they say, no. All publicity is good publicity. That whole thing, which, okay, whatever. Like that, that says a lot about the type of person. You know, you are dependent on which way you want to go. I mean, she got a lot of people that was like other, because I think companies recognize like that we can sell more if there's something exciting and, you know what I mean, off the wall happening. So it was people, other companies, other teams that was hitting her like, you would come to us anytime. Easy. You know what I mean? Cause it's like, so she really, she probably got way more opportunities off of that than not. From the attention it is, and that's not, and that's not, and people, that's the problem with consumers though. Consumers get, get messed, they get, get it twisted thinking because X person did that and oh, I as a company stepped in. I'm supporting them. No, that's an op. This person is getting, they got attention. They're bringing attention. They're bringing me attention. That's, that's a, and me looking like I support them brings me money. Exactly. Like that's all a lot of that stuff is. So it's not necessarily support, but I know what, because I feel like, especially when it comes to juice world because of nature of that, we need to, we're gonna do that on the next one. But with this, I wanna question, which is a little less music related. It's really just society related. That whole idea of the person that, in Lizzo's situation, she stands for, which she's the person who's going over the hill, being first, I'm gonna show my body in this way that, again, like you said, certain people, they don't, they're not comfortable with it. So she's record for that community, right? Cause she been on line, she been dropping like naked pictures, you know? Yeah. And all that. And look, that's a fair assessment because these people have been done wrong, right? And they get, their security or insecurities get taken advantage of, right? Or they get pushed in that place and their self-esteem is beat down. So this person represents that for them. I get all that, right? But then at some point, I also feel like, and you as a woman can respond to this. Okay, you better say it, look, you better say it right. I get confused where, like let's say, we might be like, oh, like males are hoes and they don't, and it's a double standard because they could be a hoe, right? And not get talked about a certain way, right? Cool. Cool. Right? But I don't think, I feel like the reality of things should not be, oh, well, I'm gonna act like a male and to free myself, I'm gonna go do this. Cause if we recognize this thing as a negative behavior, if you recognize it as a negative behavior, you should want them to act right, not, oh, you go act wrong and now you feeling powered by acting wrong or a different example is, like if I feel like, like I don't, I feel like it's a negative thing sometimes that body is always used as a form of freedom and sexual expression. Like you don't have to, like the very fact that you are having to use that as freedom sometimes as freedom sometimes is kind of a response to the same patriarchy suppression. So you're still operating in the same place because we suppressed this, now you're doing that and it's cool. Like you need all forms in all sides but I just sometimes it's a fatigue when I see like the only way of freedom to be like those type of things. Oh, I gotta be outlandish and acting away that it's outside the norm. You get what I mean? This is one thing because like outside the norm is like a relative thing. Like that might be your norm, right? Because like before Lizzo became somebody that the world knew, that might have been her personality already. That it was. Right. So it's really like when it comes back to you talking about, you know, getting your creative back and putting your personality like that is already her personality and it's just now because she's in the public eye more we're seeing this. But that probably was her before this. Now, one thing that you said you was talking about, you know, men do all of this and they get called this but nobody really looks down to them and you said something like, so females are doing things like men and I don't think it's like females are, I'm gonna be more sexual or put my body or whatever to show like, oh, I'm like this man or anything. I think it's more so like we're not afraid of those names or that stigma anymore. You know what I mean? So it's like, and right now people are saying like roles are reversing, you know, women even in the music if you listen to music like all most of the female rappers is coming out talking about getting the money, tricking, you know what I mean? Scamming and all of this, you know what I mean? And it's a lot of people are like, oh my God. But it's like, it's being looked at crazy because it's out of the norm for people to hear. I'm not saying that though. I'm just those type of women too. Like that's, that's all you know about them. Look bro, I'm from where I'm from, I am who I am. But all I'm saying is I'm talking about the people who specifically use that as the rhetoric, right? People who are being who they are, that is what it is, right? Lizzo has always been that way. I'm not even like, so I'm not even saying- But don't you feel like every artist uses that? Like every female, I think it's weird because she's big. I'm not talking about the people being the people, no, no, no, I'm not even talking about Lizzo. I'm talking about the attached propaganda that happens, how people use these artists, right? To spend for their own narratives. This represents that. Well, if Lizzo's just being Lizzo, she might not be doing this because of this, that, and the third. But you say, oh, she's doing this and y'all don't like it because of that. Or women, this is empowerment. Like, so we get, people get trapped because of marketing and the communication in these visions of what empowerment look like. In the same way people get trapped in what different looks like, different gets marketed to people. So much so that people think they're being different and they all are doing the same shit. So when anything gets communicated as empowerment, right? And it's this still monotone vision and perspective based on simply being the anti to what the suppression was. I have a problem with that too. Cause now it's like the empowerment should be you being able to be who you are. Not raging against the machine. Raging against the machine still shows an internal thing that's still feeling that struggle. And I think a lot of it from a marketplace standpoint, it takes certain people doing that, right? To help other people get out of their bag just like early in the conversation we talked about artists, right? Needing to see other artists do this stuff. Just to think they can do it. The same thing happens, right? We know about representation is a very real thing for people whether that's a certain person of a certain color being in a certain position. So we know we can do it too or a certain person of a certain weight or all those things. That's a very real thing. But once stuff gets marketed heavy as this is the thing, now businesses can capitalize. It starts to be exploited. That's all I'm saying. Like once it gets to like now I can exploit it cause I know how you're gonna think I know how you're building your identity and it becomes a new box that then a couple of generations away, they have to undo that but then they gonna create their own BS because everybody is trying to make things better that don't necessarily even need to be improved. They just need to be like done away with cause they should have never done been there in the first place. But I think like, you know when it comes to like these artists being idols I feel like they are setting like the standards for certain things. And I think, you know, other people are taking those and running with them. And I feel like right now that's why we're getting so much more of this like sexual thing when it comes to females and music. You know, and that's translating to all of regular girls in every day. You know what I mean? Hot girl summer. You know what I mean? Like period, like all of that stuff. To me that was like, that's just a regular. Are you feeling that? That was just a regular summer. So I was feeling hot girl summer. That was just a regular summer. Like that was, I don't know man. But it's like these things that, that artists do you know, you guys watching this, you know the things that you guys are talking about the things that you are actively doing or showing your fans and your fan base. Like it's people who literally look up to you. You know what I mean? Like there's somebody, there's probably mad big girls that really look up to Lizzo. Like yo, she's really standing from us. So when I see her do this, like it literally makes me smile. Like, yes, B, I'm about to have my cheeks out. Like, you know what I mean? Or if you're a rapper and it's like, yes. Like, oh, you glorify and all these different things. Like it just makes people feel like I can do. When Prince had his cheeks out he was on stage at his concert. People still trip too, right? Because of social norms and all that stuff. But environment, that was the thing for there. Just like you don't come to, like people go to funerals in certain colors, right? Like every, my problem is every single rule or every single norm isn't something that's a bad thing. Right? It's just like when you come to my household if I want you to take your shoes off I'm not that kind of house. You got that kind of house. But if you got that kind of household like it's nothing wrong with that. That's just how you operate in this space. Contextually, I talk to my mom different than I'm gonna talk to you, right? Then I'm gonna talk to my homies, my dad. Like every conversation you talk to people differently so when people try to act like certain norms existing in certain environments are all oppressive, like all encompassing is like, nah, that's not so. Now, when we get into certain deeper identity things where people have been pushed and prodded since they've been a young person. Like if you're struggling with weight and all or whatever color or all that stuff, I get it, right? But it's just- It's a place, time and place for everything, I guess. There is, but no, but so, cause those are two different conversations, right? The societal stuff, but then when we just talked about the norms of how she was dressing in that environment it's like, it's not that big of a deal to be like, oh, that was inappropriate for that environment, right? It's in the same way, like I said, people dress certain ways at weddings, you know what I mean? Like you, apparently, you don't come to the wedding wearing a white dress if you ain't the bride or something like that, you know? Like it's all kind of rules, but what is it about? It's about what's the focus in that thing. So sometimes when it's really narcissism, right? Or self-indulgence and involvement when you always have to go be moving in your way, no matter what the environment, cause sometimes it's not about you. If I'm here and I'm coming, it's your event and I'm coming looking stunning, I'm not getting it about me, right? It's like, yeah, it's about you, right? But I'm coming here like, you know, I gotta be late to the event and all that stuff. Like, no, I'm supposed to be here to respect you and whatever you got going on. So the same thing is in some of these environments. There's things that are supposed to be the focus in art. So you can't be mad when people feel like you're taken away from the focus or some of the norms. Again, by itself, is it the worst thing in the world? No, but we also have to realize these norms, once you understand the rules, then you know when, where and how to break them if you want to, but you can do it intentionally. That's what I do as a marketer. It's like, sometimes I'm like, yeah, these are the norms, right? So I'm a go with the norms so I can communicate with these people effectively. But then sometimes I'm like, these are the norms. So I'm gonna break these rules, but I know I'm being like an asshole or I know I'm being brash or I know I'm doing something that's against it. So I can't pretend like, oh, these people are wilding. I know they should be wilding and I want them to wild because I know what it's gonna do for me. So it's almost like, you know, as an artist, entertainer, whatever, I think, you know, even though artists want to stay in their own creative box and they want to express themselves, I think when you get into this industry, no matter if you're an actor or whatever, it's like, you literally have a responsibility to kind of know better during certain times. Yeah. I mean, I think that just comes with being an adult and being conscious of the world, right? You would think so. Things around you. Like once you have that, you know, the responsibility is only you being ignorant is being ignorant so you can't, you're not responsible for that. But once you know something, then it's up to you whether you follow it or not, but you still kind of have that responsibility. Again, this is something as big as big as that. Cause that leads back into the deeper influence. That little thing, I feel like that's a bad representation cause it's still so trivial at the end of the day to me. Right? Like it's still, I'm not surprised it became a big deal as it was, but like I whatever, you know what I mean? Like the camera people also decided to keep the camera on her. You know what I mean? Right. It is what it is. She was like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised if if they actually formulated something like that. You know what I mean? Like just the way some of this stuff moves. So it was like that, that's not that big deal, but understanding as an artist, the power you have, the power of words and the influence you do have is only gonna, not only when we talk about the positive impact you can make, but even make you be able to leverage what you have for your career selfishly. A lot better. Yeah. So, but all right. Cause I want to, I really want to go deeper though in that performance cause there's so many other nuances and some deep shit, especially when we talk about the whole juice world situation. We could do that in another episode, but for now, it's just another episode. We went, we went way off, but I hope y'all got value out of it, especially when we talked about the platforms all the way to this, this, uh, Lizzo and this, but that's the nature of what this podcast will be just to let y'all know. We're gonna get deep with the practical stuff, the artists, the marketing, but we also have to touch the world so we can show the macro, how you can think about things strategically and how certain things get perceived. Exactly. Y'all take it how you want to, how you like it. Lady J, are you gonna, you gonna take us out? Yeah, man. So y'all already know it's Lady J Bookums. You can find me on Instagram with all the platforms at Lady J Bookums, Brandman, Sean, Lizzo, Hater. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, Oh, Liz. It's the music matters, podcast, we out.