 So he's actually a local, but he travels all over he his moniker is the agile dad He's a father One of the things that I learned at home is that there are a couple of different conditional ways that people learn One of which is the same way that we teach children I know this is going completely against It's right here. I think we're in front of it. I know it goes completely against what I can said at the Orlando Scrum Gallery But what I'm saying is that if we teach Individuals the same way that we teach Adults all the time that they're going to be sometimes more lacking Ability to teach the way we teach our children And where I'm going with that is that You're gonna laugh I in the total that's that's terrible I think for me where I was going is that my kids we actually have a backlog at home Where we keep all my children's chores and stuff so my wife and I got together We said we need to find a better way to do this So we took my children and we said okay We have an idea we wanted to incentivize the kids to get their work done So we took and we created a natural backlog for them and we put the allowance amount in the estimate column so then my kids can come home every day and they all fight to go upstairs after school and they check the Backlog real quick and they say oh what can I work on and they find something to work on and then on Friday We get together and we get all the kids together and we just you know pay them their allowance and do our thing And they get really excited over it then my wife makes a backlog for me for the weekend We discuss what I'm gonna do. I try to cut back on my velocity, but she has none of that We go and I do the work throughout the weekend on Sunday We have a meaningful retrospective and we re-enter our kids chores So that's a little background about me a little too much that you didn't need to know But let me just get started real quickly in case you couldn't tell I'm pretty passionate about what I do My name is Lee Henson I do work as a full-time employee for version one in a capacity of an ambassador certified agile guru Evangelist whatever the case may be but I also own an organization called agile dad And the whole purpose here is to promote just better thinking better interactions So I could have named this slide deck deja vu because I think many of you will see some things that you see as a recurring theme And it's kind of coincidental because it wasn't you know by choice But hopefully I can get this eight-hour training session Which has been converted into a 90-minute package that deliver at conferences Which has been converted into a 30-minute presentation to you in 26 minutes. So let's see how it goes the obligatory ducks Any questions? Okay, good. I got them in there All right, so let's talk about the agile manifesto for a second Everyone here so far that stood on this stage has focused on the same one line I'm not gonna deviate the focus of today's discussion is going to be on individuals and interactions and I think when I was first approached about this I was really excited because dr. Coburn and I talked to Alistair and I would you know We talked about this on a plane on the way back from Orlando a little bit And it's it's interesting that when you go back to the roots of what's going on in the agile community A lot of the fallout or a lot of the pitfalls comes from individuals and interactions not interacting the way they should so From there I say the question is what if Okay, now where am I going with this? My daughter asked me, you know, she's eight. Can I go to the park dad? And I said you know I said it's getting close to dinner. I prefer if you didn't she says well What if I bring a friend I said well, you know that doesn't change the fact that dinner is coming up You know, we can't do that. She says well, what if I ride my bike instead of walk? I said honey, you know dinner's coming up and she got all men She says you don't understand me and she stormed off and went upstairs and slammed the door crying Now I thought to myself that child needs to learn to listen, right? But what did I eventually discover? It wasn't the child who needed to learn to listen. It was Me Because she was trying to tell me something completely different than what I was willing to hear So I went upstairs and approached her and said, you know What's going on and dug in and she told me that her friend who has a separated parent relationship Was going to stay with her dad for six months and she only had 20 minutes left She could play with her friend and she wasn't gonna see her for six additional months. I had I known that was the criteria I likely would have made a different decision, right? But I didn't because I didn't have all the details So agile teams are no different. They're very inquisitive. They want to know why, you know They want to know it's okay to say this is the best practice or this is what we need to do Or this is how we're going to get there. But the question that evidently comes up is why? What if we do this? We need to say what we're gonna do and do what we say in order to be successful in an agile Organization, okay, so it's the individuals and the way they interact. Now this nice young man This is a real picture of him. His name is General Dave Mice I had the pleasure of working directly under this gentleman on the Department of Interior project Now I don't know if any of you have ever done this before but this was very early on We're talking early 2000s here and let's just say Scrum and Agile wasn't very popular then especially in a government project Well, I walked in and the first thing I said was you know General Mice I love you to pieces, but I'm not nearly as organized as you are. Is there any way you can help me out? I just want to keep a running list of everything I got to do and in no uncertain words I'll take out all the expletives. He said something like boy That's gotta do to be organized. You go and do that thing. Just get it over. We get out of my off here I was like, okay good. So just one more thing. I realize your time is valuable, right? So I don't want to bother you with all these meetings meetings meetings. So what we're gonna do is as an organization We're gonna meet daily, you know 15 minutes same time same place But for you, I just want to check in with you every couple of weeks take 30 minutes of your time So you could say are we on track or are we off track? That's all I want. He says That's the last question you're gonna ask me get out of my office and that was the end of it But what had I done? In less than 15 minutes and probably the same amount of time I had to say it up here I established iterative development. I Established I'm gonna keep a running list of everything we're gonna do. I established I was gonna do some type of daily meeting to communicate and I was gonna enhance communications cut back on the amount of time He had to spend in meetings Kind of the holy grail, right? The problem is all too often we go through and we try to look for the silver bullet solution As I John mentioned in the last talk He said that a lot of teams try to use a tool or a method or a specific prescribed way of doing things as a crutch Right and what happens? I hear it all the time people come to me and they say, you know, we know how to spell agile We read the first 12 pages of Ken's book and we're ready to do scrum And we know everything there is to know about it. What tool can we buy to help us make this success? You know, we're struggling. So what tool we need to help push us through and Here as a representative from one of the tool companies, I'm here to tell you the tools not the answer Okay, there's no red blue blue blue pill, you know red pill blue pill whatever you want to call it If there was such a thing we would have all taken it by now and we'd all be extremely successful So if you're holding back, let me know The point is we need to figure out a way to make this man happy. Is that possible? Okay, I my challenge to you is today We're gonna find out what happened and I'm gonna create a theoretical situation here is that his project just went online or started to go online it was six months overdue and Way over budget and he wasn't very happy. So he wanted to know Who's fault it was? Right, that's a common question. Who's fault is it? So I'm here today to let the finger pointing begin and we as a group are gonna interactively figure out Whose fault is it that his project failed anybody have any guesses right up front? anyone His Tell me everything was your fault. So that's okay my friend appreciate it. All right So we need to figure out wasn't the executive was another management wasn't the team So let's go through and try to figure this out in a collaborative agile way So the first place to look is the levels of agile planning now Why do I go there because it's simple if you've ever been to an elementary school any of you? Yes The way they do it is they organize their playground Usually the kids get together by age groups So all your kindergartners play in their separate area the first graders normally interact with second graders or whatnot, right? But they segregate the fields and the reason they do that anybody know Yeah Because if they're playing football eighth graders will run over second graders That's a good analogy, but it's simple They need the separation so that they can have distinct areas that they're good at playing in right now The second graders might not need as much room as the eighth graders But this gives them all the ability to play well together Does that sound familiar as an agile organization one of our goals is to help everyone play well together Okay, so we've created these different independent layers right I call them those circles I don't have the neat little drawing thing. Sorry. So I got to use the little laser guy But we have like, you know the strategy layer Which is where our executive management lies and it kind of trickles in from there through releases iterations Continuous communication, etc. Right so my question to you is at the very outcome Does the executive lack vision now? I've been in organizations and I've been within companies and the big thing that I hear the big message an ongoing message I hear is I hear people executive level tell their teams We need to improve our product. We need to increase customer satisfaction by 20 percent We need to do all these wonderful things and I know I hired the right group of people to do it You guys can do it sale well How valuable is that advice? How valuable is it to sale well What's missing anybody How guidance where? Example Concreteness but isn't so well good enough I'm an executive for crying out loud. I'm the C blank blank, right? So well should be enough shouldn't it or should it so the question is at what level does your executive in your organization interact with the team? Do they have their finger all the way down to the day-to-day activities and they're starting to pop or they the kind of executive that wants to sit back and give this helpful advice Even though they may not realize that the advice they're giving it lacks a little bit of inspiration Okay, so here's my definition of sale. Well, right sale. Well means we got to manage the direction We got a chart course We got to have a strategy to execute on how to get there, right? But the big one is the next one we need to recognize that the executive if they don't know this is not necessarily at fault Now, why do I say that? If the executive doesn't know it whose responsibility is it to share it with them who's It's the people in the inner circle who know right? It's their responsibility to come back and say it's going to be impossible for us to execute on the advice to sell Well, if we don't have a strategy on how to get there, okay? So normally what happens and this is something that's very interesting when I go in and coach Organizations, this is probably one of the largest pitfalls. I see the executive wants to be involved way down here Why? They want to ensure the success of the work all the people in the middle aren't communicating So what happens is this executive way up here says I need to put my finger down here or else I don't know what's going on because I don't have I don't have visibility If I don't know what's going on, I need to be involved in your day-to-day stuff So it doesn't matter how graphic or how direct my vision is My advice to sell well should be enough because I'm gonna be there every day to make sure you sell well No, no, don't tie that not that way. Let me tie it for you. You know, that's the executive. We're trying to get away from Okay, so the key is we have to understand What the direction is what the course is but we need to leverage other people to help us figure that out But the big piece that you have to take away from this slide is that the executive is not at fault So let's pretend it's clue, right? It's not professor Plum with the lead pipe in the kitchen. We've already eliminated him so let's try our next example and The advice first of all that I got to give you from that for empowering the Agile team There's only a few steps. The first one is we need to learn to sell well. Okay The executive shouldn't have to give us too much more than that And if we need more than that, we need to leverage the resources we have to get the information to learn how to sell well So we need to learn to sell well Understand the strategy and a driving force behind a vision so that we can continue to be successful as a team So that's the first key Okay, there's only a few so hang in there So if it's not the executive Everybody knows right now It's always the product owner why? Because they write crappy requirements come on guys Okay, the product owner cannot you know this prd thing. Where did that ever come from? You know, they want to come to me with a 96 page explanation. I like to use an analogy. It's a simple example. Okay a Lady goes in to get her hair styled. She decides she wants something completely different If she walked into her hairdresser with a 96 page prd, what's the likelihood she's gonna get the hairstyle she wants? Pretty slim. Okay. What if she walked in with a three by five index card with marks a lot written on there? But exactly what she wants Well, probably not likely either Yet Every man in the room can attest when we walk into a barber shop We can tell the barber in 30 seconds or less exactly what we want and do we walk out happy? Yes, moral of the story is women make poor product owners. No, just kidding Well, I don't want to get shot up here Moral of the story is that we need to get used to forming the barber shop explanation of what we want and stop focusing on the Literature Explanation of what we want. We need to start focusing on how to get to where we need to be to be successful now The product owner would come back in and say I wrote an extensive prd and on page 896 section 21 a Subparagraph 4 it states that blah blah blah blah blah, right? Isn't that good enough and my answer is no Okay, that's not good enough because if you can't clearly define it now I'm not going to use the the silly template that everyone knows as a blank I would like to blank so that blank it doesn't need to go to that extreme Okay, but it should be simple enough That you should be able to give me as a developer as an architect as someone on a team a team member You should be able to give me the barbershop explanation and I should be able to say I get it It doesn't mean I have all the details, but it means I get it The same is true for a project manager. There are two different kinds of project managers Okay, the first project manager. It's my favorite one. It's the one who says I am here to remove all the impediments Oh, wait a second sir. You're ergonomically incorrect mark What I need you to do is lift up the back of the keyboard just slightly Let me help you and they run and grab the assist and they run out and put it underneath Oh, wait a second sir. You're leaning too far forward. You're in danger of falling off your chair Please sit up a little more that person is better off dead Okay, because the fact is everyone on the team wants to kill them anyway Okay, but they're not really giving Constructive productive advice to help the team press forward Okay, then there's a second kind of project manager who I call the dead project manager. That's the one it says She I have no idea. What should we do? What do you think help me understand here I'm new at this They're dead in the opposite sense. Okay, so you may have heard Ken Schwabers quote But dead scrum master is a useless scrum master that can mean dead in either sense of the word Okay, you can either be vibrantly dead or wishing you were dead or you could be so That you're dead anyway. Okay, so with that the project manager Should be trained to assist the team in breaking down the product requirements document if necessary They're responsible for moving the impediments So if someone comes to you like we discussed earlier and says These requirements stink What's the first question you should ask them? But there's one that I would ask first. I Would say yeah, they stink, huh? What did you do to help? Did you go and offer a lending? Did you offer to lend a hand? Did you offer to add clarification? Did you offer to give any valuable input at all? So my rule inside of the workplace is I am super flexible as a coach Right, I'm very flexible, but if you come to me with a problem, you don't sure well better have an answer or a proposed solution Or else I don't want to hear your problem because I've got enough cheese to last me for many bottles of wine So I don't want to hear any whining. No such thing as whining an agile Okay, that was my virtual high-five Good deal. All right So if it's not them then it must be the team lead, right? Because we all know these Development managers and team leads you know people who are in charge of development organizations one of my favorite stories I walked into an organization and a dev manager says I'm in charge of all the HR issues that have to do with the department I buy their software. I make sure they have the right hardware. That's my job But what else do you do? Why make sure that they're staying on track? So I went back and I said, okay, let's have a meeting got scrum master in the room This was a team doing scrum. What's your job? My job is to help remove impediments and make sure the project focuses along Grab a product owner. What's your job? My job is to focus on requirements. Make sure the requirements break down as efficient for the team Went over to a VP and said if any of these guys asked you for hardware that they absolutely needed would you refuse it? Well, absolutely not Okay, buddy. Here's your box. The dev manager looked at me like What are you doing? There comes a time in every agile organization and I'm not everyone's favorite person for saying this But there comes a time in an agile organization where certain individuals need to redefine their roles What do I mean by that? Well, there's a development manager. There's other people who are used to doing their roles a specific way It's not that they're not important or integral to the process and it's not that they don't have Contributions that they can make that are of great value It's just that if they don't adjust their roles when a team transitions from a waterfall environment to an agile environment They're gonna get left behind And as a result of getting left behind they have trouble letting go of a few things to have control over So a lot of times they're used to saying you're the best at what you do You are my best sequel server writer You know, I need you to write the sequel server scripts for this Because you're the best When in actuality these two guys just went to a sequel class they're graduating from college They're my interns and I need to give them a chance to really prove their pudding So I'm gonna have them write to code or I'm gonna ask them if they want to write to code I'm not gonna sign it to them, but I'll give them an opportunity so I can cross-pollinate between my team Now that creates a direct conflict between development manager who used to say you will do it And the team who says I'd like to have a chance of doing that So we need to understand that that dichotomy does exist and the way to get through it is to help the team understand The why's behind the what's okay So if we ask the team to do something and we don't tell them why They're never gonna want to do it But if you focus on a team and make sure you structure and tell them why then they'll want to that that desire to do it And they'll understand the why's behind the what's Okay, so My favorite line on the slide I got to read it to you The question is that the senior administrative assistant to the vice-coach here administrative director over employee satisfaction See to it that the team's needs or satisfaction was met My point being in every organization I walk into there's somebody with One of these ridiculous rules Okay, sometimes it's not as far out as that one, but somebody has some role Where they're sitting behind a desk and their sole purpose in life is what? They're not even sure what's the answer up front and that's absolutely right So I challenge each one of you to identify these individuals and to help them understand where they can best fit into the agile picture So one of my number one pitfalls that I was telling someone earlier today Is that people don't necessarily understand their roles on an agile team? So we as an organization need to make sure that everyone understands their role so that they can be productive if they don't understand What they're doing we can't expect them to be but here's number two There are two different ways to manage you can manage from the inside out Being that guy who helps you sit up and remove the chairs and really ingrained in the development day-to-day stuff Or you could be the person who stands on the outside at the 10,000 foot view and Manages by helping a team remove the obstacles that they can't remove themselves I'm gonna say that one more time helping the team remove the obstacles that they cannot remove themselves Part of empowering a team is allowing them to remove their own obstacles Okay, if they have trouble removing their own obstacles, it's our duty or obligation to help them in any way We can't okay, so we need to instill that confidence But we need to give them a chance if you're not giving them a chance then you're one of those dead project managers slash scrubmasters Okay So learn to sail well Manage from the outside in here are the seven treats of a highly effective manager Yes, I ripped these off online. The reference is in the notes section So while I'm on the topic any of you who want the entire slide deck Including all the notes of PDF fashion that you can have no worries It's gonna be published on the site from agile roots, but you can get it today At agile dad block spot comm and ad address is coming up at the end So you can go and get it. It's available for download completely free And it's the whole deck not slim down version Okay, so here are the seven traits of a highly effective manager the one that interests me the most here, right? There's two one is Improvement oriented. I can't tell you how many times I've met a manager and they've said I have high expectations for my team They do a great job. I Said well, what can they do better? They say well, they're doing a great job My answer is how many of you are familiar with forming storming norming performing anyone? Yes? Lots of you good. Lots of hands. I wanted to see that Sometimes once a team forms and they realize that they're a little bit different. They start to storm Then when they realize that they can work together towards a common goal, they start to norm But here's what scares me to death How many teams actually make it from norming to performing? The statistics show less than 20% do What happens generally well two things either the team norms out so much that they get to a point where they're completely stagnant, right? so they're completely normed out and You know, okay, I'm normed out and we have no further progress that we can make and you ask them So I need help, you know, David and I don't pick it on you, but I need your opinion I have this thing that I'm working on and I just need to bounce an idea off of you What do you think and your response to me is well? I'm gonna go back and talk to the team and we'll be back to you in 24 hours of that answer That's a sign that you've gone too far and you're norming. Okay The person or manager who's working with this team needs to understand that in an effort to improve You need to take advantage of those opportunities and introduce a little storm now not talking about introducing hurricane Katrina here I grew up in Louisiana. It was bad news I'm talking about introducing a small storm that helps the team Re-evaluate or inspect and adapt. Okay, so it gives you an opportunity to see where you are and what's going on inside of your organization So if it's not any of those folks, it must be the team, right? What do you think is a team to want to cause all this to happen is the team in the kitchen with a knife Anybody yes no no opinion I was about to say it is the first time I've ever heard this group silent Come on guys. Who do you think it is? Could it possibly be them? The question is Is it possible That they didn't have a clear understanding of what they were committing to Or that they weren't aware of what they should have done how many times do you hear you know not in your organization But I'm just saying in general how many times you hear someone say I opened that up and oh crap It was a lot bigger than I thought it was That's never happened to any of you I'm sure right Or vice versa you hear someone say that bug's going to take me six weeks to fix And they open it up and realize that someone commented one too many lines of code Got a question in a bag I wouldn't put that as the fault of the team If they didn't understand what they were committing to I'm not sure that's the team's fault Right Question marks the end. I'm asking a question. I'm not insinuating that it is their fault. I'm asking a question In your case, you're absolutely right. So we'll run with what you said You're right in this case. It's not the team's fault But I would challenge them in a retrospective or in some other format and ask them What could what could they have done differently? Is there anything they could have done in retrospect to make their environment a little better? Now it doesn't mean that I'm casting blame on them Because we talked about earlier and I can't you know repeat it in an eloquent way that john did But we need to make sure that we're not casting blame on someone Behavioral issues are important to understand with the team and with psychology background. We could talk about that for about eight hours Okay, so the questions about is the team being effective here is a quick checklist 10 items that you can run through just to know if your team is being effective or not Okay, these are sort of geared towards scrum because they came from one of my scrum decks But it gives you an idea of just some overarching questions that you can challenge yourself or ask your team This is something you might want to print out and put in a team area so they can see it So the last one That I have on here or I should say second to last is you need to enable the team to follow the 10 keys to effectiveness Am I about five? okay So the last one that we have to realize Is that the team inevitably has These aha moments as alistair calls them, right? There's this one moment when a team gets When it clicks and you see the light bulb come on and you go ding and that team just becomes hyper productive I'll do my jeff sutherland thing. They increase my 1500 productivity and they go through the roof They do 750 times to work that they could Okay The team becomes a well oil machine Okay, and we need to look for those things when they realize that You can see Feel and smell the difference of team any familiar with agile smells Now my cone wrote about it So there are certain smells that are good and other smells that are bad Okay, these are the good smells. These are the smells of an empowered team. Are they collaborating? Are they doing team building together? Do they understand accountability? Are they being productive? Do they hold quality demos if they do demos? Are they having meaningful retrospectives? These are things that you can look at as signs of an empowered team Likewise on the flip side There are file team smells Is the team losing rhythm? Are they finding the meetings that they're going to absolutely useless especially to daily stand up? I could argue that that meeting is completely useless if it's not done right Okay, are there missing pigs when pigs are needed? These are just signs that you can look for you know credit to my cone But these are signs that you can look for to see if your team's falling into any pitfalls So there's my pitfall activation reference Okay Does the team suffer from lack of energy or they have no regard for commitment? You know, where are they do they not want to come to the demo? Did they find a daily stand-up meeting useless if these things are happening? These are warnings that you need to go on a different track Okay, so how do you fix these things? How do you adjust them? Well, you take them one at a time and you keep the team smelling fresh Okay, you can't tackle them all at once, but tackle each one individually And from there, we just have to start today You have to teach the team to realize that if you're going to give them power If you're going to give them the ability to change things if you're going to give them the ability to make decisions That they're had they have to be accountable and that great responsibility goes along with that That they need to work together as a group and play in their own playground And that they have to make sure that they understand that they can rely on others within their team to help them be successful So start today And that's all I got so You hold the keys to being successful Visit the well and drink often. I promised I published this for you. There it is Okay, you can go there today on the right hand side. You can download the deck for free I appreciate your time. And if I have one minute, I'll open the floor for questions. If not, I'm done Okay, I'll open the floor for questions I have a question. Yes. So you have this analogy about a haircut in a barbershop Man's haircuts are pretty simple and kind of uncomplicated And if you have to deliver a feature that's a woman's haircut, then it's a totally different conversation Okay, so this is good. This is a valid point He says that I use the analogy of barbershop versus salon women's haircut being much more complex than a man's haircut My challenge is if we go with a lean principle here And we say that we're going to break down the elements of a woman's haircut Well, that that would make life way easier shape everyone's head But that's not where i'm going with this where i'm going is it's the same technique That you use on a woman's haircut that you do on a man's haircut It's just a man's haircut is a shorter version of some of the same things that you would do on a woman's haircut My point being even though it may use a little different skill set to learn how to do it The fact is when you break it down component-wise Layering is the same you're using a lot of the same materials There's just so many similarities that you can capture there That's just a matter of mastering something from a different perspective that yes It's same with technical development You're going to encounter things that are more difficult But you need to tackle them each one by one until you can say you've successfully mastered them And then one becomes much like the other the goal is over time to make those complex things less complex I had a question in the back Yes Anybody who goes to a stand-up and hears Yesterday I worked on that item and i'm still not done. I'm gonna be working on that item today no impediments For three days in a row That's an example of a really bad stand-up. There are others But the point is a lot of times people don't take the accountability because they feel like this meeting is worthless I'm not getting the information I need out of it So sometimes you'll hear me challenge and say well, what if I threw it a fourth question and asked at what percentage of Confidence do you have that you're going to complete everything you've committed to? Right, so if you go through one day and say i'm 70 confident 75 confident 70 percent confident Then you come to a daily stand-up and you say um i'm 30 confident no impediments What's the team going to do? They're going to react So what you have to do is set up a way a mechanism for the team to interact better with you at the daily stand-ups And that's just one of many of the things that I teach, but it really depends on what the smell is It's like going to a doctor and saying I have a cough. I have the swine flu Okay, you need to be able to discern what the problem is and analyze that and really figure out what that's a symptom of So that's something through coaching that you can learn But more times than not people find these meetings ineffective because they're not getting valuable information out of them So you have to find a way for them to get the information that they need And still keep the meeting as concise as you can and then if the meeting's really genuinely not providing value I would argue don't have it Hi earlier you had your slide about the project being laid that general wants to know who's at fault Went through everybody and said nobody was at fault But I have to tell the general is not going to be satisfied with that answer He's not going to be satisfied with that answer because the point was that it was no one individual of those groups that were at fault In this scenario there was a culmination He still wasn't satisfied with that answer But I told you a little fib up front that project was actually successful But had it not been successful The answer that he would have been satisfied with Is that it has to rest firmly on someone's shoulders and in that case since I was his direct report And I was the person who was his liaison It would have had to fall squarely on my shoulders just because of the nature of the type of project it was Now had it been a different type of project I could have gone to a group and said here are the circumstances. Here's what's happened Here's our deltas here are new things that were introduced Here's a list of all the causes and we're going to work on each of these to try to rectify them as we can To help get to a successful implementation, you know in this case. It was a very immature implementation and just Trivia purposes here. This was the first government project to use scrum And it came in six months ahead of schedule and 1.3 million under budget Okay, and he won an award for that Yeah, he won an award for that And when I asked him so what did you do differently? He said I researched and found out about this scrum methodology and I recommend that all government projects use agile methods Anyone on stage and did that now? I could have been bitter But I wasn't because I realized that this was a stepping stone for the whole agile movement So that other people would have an opportunity to use scrum and agile in both city and county and state and federal governments But to directly answer your question somebody would have had to take responsibility because of the nature of the project That would have been me Yes, sir One of the challenges I face quite often is The problem You know, you have well, okay, we got a limited budget right and we have so many number of people on our team And we've got to get on the phone and talk to the point about this or that feature and How do you how do you avoid the problem of spending your entire budget because everyone on the team needs to be in the Meeting on the phone? You know what I'm saying? like how How do you manage communication so you can disseminate what everybody needs to know about everybody being Every meeting all the time. That's a very question. There's a class that's called facilitation foundation If you go to the blog, I hate to do this to you, but I'm going to for a second time on a blog You can download the entire slide deck. It's free. You can go through that in facilitation foundation We talked specifically about having to write people in the right meetings how to save time How to disseminate information and how to get from point A to point C But last but not least I just want to say thank you. You guys have been wonderful. You've interacted. I appreciate it Enjoy the rest of the conference