 to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, the host and co-producer of the chats with Mistress Joanne Gaddy. Inside Leather History, a fireside chat is a production of the Leather Archives and Museum. And I'm speaking with Carl Heinz Edel, who is in Mannheim, Germany. Carl Heinz is the first European boot black. So we're very curious to what they have to tell us today. Carl Heinz, tell us a little bit about your growing up, where you're from, your family. Well, I'm a pretty average, young person, I think. I have German parents. I grew up in Germany pretty much around here. And there's nothing that special about me, I think. I think I was 15 when I got into the whole punk rock thing. So I got my first pair of boots around then. They were from the flea market, and they were much too big for me. And they were very old. And the leather hurt my feet something horrible. So yes, I started trying to soften them up. And that was pretty much the start. I never stopped doing boots since then. How did you begin doing those boots? I just threw everything at them I could find in the basement, like cream polishes and dubbans. And I made a mess, but it worked in the end. Because I wore those boots every day, all day. So they softened up from just wearing, after all. I didn't have them for so long because sometime after, I realized that my feet would never get this big. So I splurged on a new pair then. What kind of boots did you buy? Those were Shelly Rangers. I think there were 10 eyelets high. This would be the high version of the original. Oh, it's beautiful. Yes, they are. Oh. That line, that crinkle around the ankle. I still love those. These are not mine, obviously, because they are huge. But I had the short version about this high, I think. OK, OK. And I loved them two bits. Really, I treated them horribly. But I didn't feel better. I was young. Well, what does that mean you treated them horribly? Well, we mainly wore them as protection at concerts. And we used to kick beer bottles with them and all that. And that was rather rough on the leather. If I had treated them better, I would probably still have them. I still have my second pair, but not those. When you said that you threw everything from the basement at them, what kinds of things were you using at that point? Everything from the thick grease that we used on hiking boots to black shiny stuff that's actually designed for inner city boots and shoes. And there wasn't that much, actually. But it just kept going. You see, Germany isn't a wax polish country. I could draw you a map of Europe. It's there's different places like the Scandinavians, like very heavy greases. And then there's a zone that uses wax polish like from Great Britain down to Portugal. Everything south of the Alps doesn't do much leather care at all. They have these horrible quick shine things. Don't use them. And Germany and around Germany is mostly cream polishes, actually. So oh, and then there's the Alps. The Alps is conditioner and wax polish. And yeah, that's pretty much it. But that's what you find in the stores when you go through Europe. I'm surprised. I did not realize there were so many regional differences. Yes, there are. Then there's the equestrian people who have their own little things and the motorbikers who have their own. So yeah, but as long as it works, it's good. So they all do the same, even though people don't really realize that my mother wouldn't put water on a boot. She would be like, oh, no, the salt stains. But she did use cream polish, which has water in the product. And it works. So she does the same thing without realizing that she does put water on her shoes. Tell me how your desire began. How did you begin to learn boot blacking? It was my favorite chore as a child, actually, before the punk rock boots. But then I was the only little punk rock carotid with shiny boots on the second pair. That was the first pair, went to rags. But then people around me realized that I didn't get, how do you call it, would you hurt your feet in the shoes? Blisters, that I was the only one who didn't get blisters with the boots in summer. So they started asking me what I was doing. And I was like, oh, come on, just give them here. It's quicker like that. So pretty soon I was doing my friend's boots, too. And it just kind of spiraled from there, I think. Were there specific products you were using then? I think I tried everything I could find. I was really happy when I found my first key view, because Germany doesn't have wax polishes as such. So that's a big difference. But I never stopped using the cream polish under there. So I usually layer cream for the blackness and a little bit of wax for extra shine. I think I started using colonial products pretty soon, because they have a wide range of products. And they are available in pretty much every shoe store in Germany. And I really like them, too. Like they have these thick black pigments in their cream polishes that really saves time in cases where you probably should dye the boot. But with that cream polish, you can work around it if it has to be fast. As you were doing your friend's boots and you were growing and you were learning about this, what feelings did you have? Glee. No joy, actually. While I'm boot blacking, I go all calm. It's like gardening, maybe. It's very soothing for me to touch and polish leather. It's a nice thing to do. And if it works, and then you get that pop and it shines up. And they are happy about the boot. I'm happy about the result. And everybody's just in a better mood than when we started. So yeah, it's just a very good thing for the soul, I think. Yes. And it's sexy. How is it sexy? How is anything sexy? I can't tell you that. And just know it's sexy. It's definitely sexy. I'm wondering how boot blacking is evolving in Europe. I find that boot blacking is dramatically changing here in North America. How are you seeing it there? No, let me ask you a question. How is it changing in North America? In North America, we are seeing more recognition of boot blacks and the talent and the skill and the dedication that boot blacks bring to the community, to the fetish kink leather community. They are beginning to become recognized truly for their value. How are you seeing that in Europe? We're still pretty unknown, I think, as a kink. But you can't really ask me about the leather scene because there's historical differences with the leather clubs. They don't like women in there. No, that's maybe not the right words. But all these clubs, when you look them up online, you will find the club rules. And they are always something like this is a club for men who are into fetish, whatever. This is a male homosexual socializing club or whatever. And so I'm a bit off to the side from that. So you probably have to ask someone else. But the general, let's go more general with it. As far as the value of boot blacking in Europe for everyone, how are you seeing the reception from other people? Boot blacking is still very rare, but people love it. Sometimes you have to explain what you're doing and why you're doing it. But they're very interested and they love it. So yes, the reception is good. We should have more boot blacks. When I'm out doing a night with my friend, I have others who work with me occasionally. We usually don't get to stop all night. We just start and then people just line up and it's work, work, work until the morning, which is nice. Do you find that the people value you? Yes, yes, definitely. I miss it. We're still on partial lockdowns due to corona. So it's been too long. Yeah. When you work with the other people you mentioned, how do you train them? They tend to just run along, alongside me and watch. And then some of them say, OK, I want to try that. And but most of them have seen me do it so often that I don't really have to tell them. They know the moves and I answer questions. And sometimes I run at them for hours and they can't escape. Yes. Mentorship for boot blacks. Do you see that in the European community? There's me and there's Al. But other than that, I think there might be one guy in Berlin. But not that I know of. I'm doing a lot online. Actually, I'm talking to lots of European boot blacks and people who might want to be boot blacks. If they if they if they dare to come out and start something new, there's two folks in Denmark who actually started doing their own thing at the club or without me. They were so nervous that I think it went well. And they will do that again. When we are allowed to. We also plan to maybe meet up in Hamburg one day. That's a bit in the middle for the British people and the Scandinavian people and the Germans. And. Yeah, that's pretty much us. I think there's one guy in Poland who might want to come up. But yeah, we are not that many, but it's good. It's starting to look like something. It's better than when I was. All alone 12 years ago when that was. Yeah, I was amazed when I heard about. American boot black culture and that that's the best contest and all that. And I was like, I want to do that too. One day I'm going to win such a thing. So when I heard that they were doing one, they must see guys in Belgium. And someone said, come on, you go there. You can go there. It's it's it's it's it's neutral. It's not not just for males. I just had to go and. Yes, I had to win it. Do you have any intention of perhaps coming here for. The boot blacking contest at International Mr. Leather. Actually, no, I'm not interested. OK, I got my one thing and that's OK. But I don't want to do contests all the time. I think I'd rather teach more. Oh, that's beautiful. I had some how do you call it? Some workshops. Imagined and lined up before the pandemic hit. There are people who are interested, even people who are not trying or wanting to be boot blacks, just people who want to learn how to shine their own boots properly. And that sounds like fun, too. How do you intend. To teach these people boot blacking. I have flip charts. I could have two days like a weekend course. I would start with the cow. And stop with the leather. Because I think the details are really interesting. Most people just see a piece of leather. Here it is, but it's easier to understand what you're doing to the boot if you go through all the steps and imagine where the cow starts and where the leather is on the cow and what comes on top of the leather and what happens to turn this thing into a piece of leather minus the cow. Because there's many people out there who say, ah, leather, it's like skin. No, it's not. It's actually not. It's like the third part of your skin in. And there's no cow under it, keeping it moist. And you can't feed it. And it's a dead thing. It's fibers. It's more like paper or wood, actually, than a piece of cow. Yes, I have flip charts. What do you feel makes a good boot black? Skills and passion, both. You definitely have to have both. Because if you don't love what you're doing, it will show. And it will just be a shoe shine that doesn't work. I mean, it's different. It is different. I'm not going to explain it. It's sexy different. And without the skills, you can't do a good job. And the customer won't be happy. And if the customer can't be happy with the results, it's not a good boot blacking experience. What skills do people need? They need the skills to do the things they intend to do. I don't think everybody needs to be able to do a leather dust repair in the stand or something like that. Just keep it simple if that's what your skills at is. Yeah, don't try to go super fancy when you're new. But it sure is nice if you can do a hand shine or bring up a mirror shine in the stand or fix an eyelet that just fell out. But that's more like sprinkles on the cake. You mentioned when we spoke earlier that skills are not enough to be a successful boot black. So assuming someone comes to the stand with the basic skillset, what else do they need? Well, good boot black loves what they're doing. But they also have to be friendly or at least not rude. They have to have a little bit of people's skills. Like you need to be able to talk to your customer. If you don't ever look up, it will be weird for them. You have to be able to read the situation a bit. How much touching do these people want? And you have to be able to talk to them. Just talk to the customer, like ask them about their boots, what they want them done, if they do them at home themselves, what they use on them. A little bit of chit-chat. And then if the person wants to relax in your chair, let them relax. I had someone fall asleep one time. He came up the next day and brought me a cheese platter. So thank you. That was weird. That was weird, but very sweet. So yes, let them relax or let them talk or whatever, but you have to make your customer comfortable too, I think. And don't promise too much. It's okay if you can just shine them. But try to do your best. Definitely try to do your best with every pair you have. Are there specific products that you prefer to use? No, I have a lot and I like them all. I'm actually not a big fan of Hubert's shoe grease, which will sound weird to Americans, but the smell is strange to Europeans actually. I carry it in my kit. And sometimes there's a pair of boots that talks to me and says, okay, I want some grease, but I never just slap Hubert's on an European pair of boots. I let the people smell first. At most of them are like, whoa, that sounds, that's like old barbecue and not in a good way. So as I have something more neutral too for European noses and I get that too. Don't use a lot of Hubert's. There's a French wax polish, Baran, which is very cheap and has a very hard wax in it. It smells nice and it does a perfect job and it's very easy to use actually too. And it's just a fun product. So it brings up a mirror shine in like five or six layers. So, and while the texture in the tin is very thin, so it's possible to just put a little bit on your hands and say you have a woman with knee-high boots, you know, all these little wrinkles, you can just go over the wrinkles and just highlight those. Oh, it's nice. Ooh, it's nice. It doesn't stick to that leather for long because wax polishes are more for thermal parts of the boot, but it's like applying some lip gloss. It's just fun for one night or two. What personal challenges have you faced as a boot black? At the time when I found out that there's American boot black contests and I was online, I found out that there's these things and I was talking to someone, don't ask me who, and I said, okay, I'd like to try that. And they were like, well, just do. And I'm like, okay, how do I go about this? And they said, just find a leather club or leather bar. So I Googled the leather clubs and leather bars and they were all men only. That was a bit frustrating. Like, oh, look, the popular kids don't want you to play again, but I did the usual thing and found my own phone. There's plenty of mixed fetish parties. So I just talked to some organizers if it would be okay if I came around with my little kid and they loved it. So I just did that. And then Marcus joined, then Iris joined, then people online became interested and now we're this little nerd group and whatever the popular kids are doing. Let them do it. We are having fun. Do you see that someday these men only events, clubs might be more welcoming of boot blocks like you coming into the situation? Yes, I guess they will. Because you see these clubs are having slight problems with not having enough young people because nowadays everybody is dating online. So if you have a fetish or whatever, you just put that on the dating app of your choice and you'll find people and it's not like when it, how it used to be when you had to go to the leather bar to find someone with a fetish. So I think in the long run it's a chance for them to open up for a more diverse set of people. Yeah, because boot blacks actually have to be there after all and it's absolutely impossible to boot black online. I tried, it's horrible. I think it would be impossible, wouldn't it? Yes, there's actually people who do boot fetish things with, they send one boot to the other person and then, but that's not for me, no, no. When you were competing for your title, I would like to know what was asked of you. What did you have to do for your contest? Don't ask me about the percentages, but most of the points came from the interview? Yes, so it was an interview about personal stuff and technical questions, which I apparently aced. And then the next day we were working the stands and there were ballots and every customer could give out points. And I think the judges came around and gave another round of points too, but I wasn't paying attention, there were boots. I think it was two thirds of the interview, one third of the ballots. From what I've heard, the scores for the ballot were very even between the customers because between the contestants because well, European customers are pretty amazed by boot blacks generally. So the scores there were very high but everybody had very high scores. So yeah, that didn't make that much of a difference. Was it the same last year actually too? How many contestants were there? One, two, three, four, yes, we were four people. Where was it held? In Belgium, in Aptelpen by MSC. Okay, yeah. What were your thoughts and your feelings when you won? No, everything, I'm thinking now it just sounds arrogant. Please, please tell me. Okay, I knew I'd win. With this much focus on the points from the interview and the technical questions, it felt a bit like being an Olympic swimmer in a kiddie pool. Like sure, it was fun, but I'm a professional conservator and restaurateur. I've trained and worked in museums. I can do all these little things that boot black does and a lot more. So it was not a contest, not much of a contest, which is part of the reason why I don't want to go to America and do it again because this might just happen again. It's like if you grew up with the language and you're expected to do a language exam and everybody around you has just learned, it doesn't feel right. I'm better off teaching. I don't completely agree that because you have an advantage that it's unfair, I don't completely agree with that because I think it only shows the talents that you bring. But that's just my opinion. Because I think someone who has learned as much as you have learned and knows as much as you know, should be able to show that. I can show that teaching. And I'm actually happy judging too. So... No, I'm good. I showed the world that I can get a sash, but one is enough for me. What advice can you give to a new boot black? Take the tips. Don't take the free drinks. Because at first I was actually hesitant to take money for something I love. But I was shining boots in front of an absent boot. Yes, you know, absent? Well, the stuff you can light on fire. Well, actually it's very potent boots and I was shining shoes next to it. In absent boot. And I didn't want to take money. So someone said, do you want one? And I said, yes, okay, I like them. Bring me one. But they heard that. So it was working and they started lining them up behind me. And it was a hot day outside. And you don't really realize how strong the stuff is. So I drank a lot of absent on one go, one day. And then I decided that it's really better for my health to just take the tip. That's funny. Yes. It was funny that night. But it was funny. Yes. Well, I can tell you here in North America, we are expected to give a generous tip. Someone is doing our boots. Because we know how hard they work. You have mentioned that there are few cis male boot blacks in Europe. Well, maybe they just don't talk to me. I don't know. But I don't think there are many cis male boot blacks. One, two, three, four. Okay, there are a few, but I don't think there's more than 10. Why do you think there are so few? I know of people who are in a relationship with a master slave, the part, dynamic, dynamics, the word. And the slave does master's boot, but he doesn't want to. He has to be forced to do it. That's not boot black. And I know that a few people who sometimes take a brush and a tin of polish to a party, but there's no one working a chair like you do, like we do now. So I have no idea why that is. You mentioned that you're welcomed in mixed spaces and able to do some very quality work in those situations. Where do you see yourself going maybe in five years or 10 years with your boot blacking? Probably still the usual places. I like to go to Munich. There's a party organizer who does big lush baroque events and they love us. And we have a little thing going where we get free entry, one person per boot black free entry too, and free drinks. And that plus the tips makes for the gas money and the hotel. So that's pretty sweet. And there's a place near Frankfurt where I usually like to go regularly, like once a month. They know us, they like us. We get the same deal. I should probably be in Berlin more often, but that place is just... Berlin is too big for me. I'm nervous. I want to know where the green stuff grows. I just don't want a city that's the large. You can't walk in on one side and out on the other. And yes, we were thinking about Hamburg, but that was before the pandemic. And let's see where it takes me. Barcelona asked me to come, it's kind of a long way, but that would be fun maybe. Do you see yourself teaching boot blacks all over Europe? Yes. Yes, please, if they want to. I mean, I'm doing a lot online and I'm talking to many, many people if they want to. And I'm answering everybody's questions in the boot black forum and on Facebook, whether they ask me to or not. Do you still feel that you are evolving, that you are growing as a boot black? Not this last year, but yes, I'm hoping to grow again next year as a boot black because nothing happened. Oh, it was boring. Yeah. The sisters of perpetual indulgence asked for glitter boots that don't shed glitter. It's a project that needs some thinking because if there's glitter, it definitely has to stay on the boot. But I think I have an idea how that could be possible and I need to try that. So yes, there's room to grow. Not that I personally like glitter boots, but hey, if someone wants them, they'll get them. There you go. What was your biggest disaster as a boot black? Oh, I was very, very young as a boot black at the time and I thought it might be a good idea to try using floor wax, you know, what you use to wax the floor for wood on a boot. It was not a good idea. What happened? That was horrible. It flaked off and it just went on flaking off. It was everywhere. And how do you call it? It electrified and it stuck to the hose from the vacuum cleaner. So it was everywhere. It was pretty disgusting. Don't do that, kids. It's not a good idea that belongs on the floor and not on your boots. It's just not flexible enough. I know that now, but I thought, hey, maybe it works. It didn't. I have had the privilege of meeting in Amsterdam, Chris Lee de Hound. Oh, he's lovely. Yes, and I will do an interview with him eventually. But to come to the specifics of this question, how are you seeing boot blocking beginning to grow in the various countries? Well, people are interested. And no matter where I go, it's the same low percentage of people who are interested. But the interest is there. It's just that it's not an established thing, I think. If there were stairs in the corners in the clubs, people would know what to do and would probably do it too. But as it is now and you have to make your space before you can even start boot plugging in a location. And I think that's a bit of barrier yet. So the only way around it is more boot plugging, I guess. Yes, you have an opportunity right now to speak to boot blacks all over the world who will be watching this interview soon. What would you really like them to know about you? Hello, I'm Karl Heinz. I know science. I can explain why the things that we do actually work. I mean, a lot of people know what to try if something happens on a boot. But I know the workings behind that. And if you ever wonder why the grease goes rancid but the wax doesn't, I can tell you that. I can even do a little thing on a blackboard if you want me to. Please explain, why is that the case? Because waxes actually are completely different from oils and greases on a molecular structure. You see, oils and greases have calories, waxes don't. And if we can't eat it, bacteria and mushrooms. Thank you, bacteria and fungus can't eat it too. And that's why oils deteriorate in a different way than waxes do. If a wax gets old, you have this long chain of carbon molecules and actually they just fly away. And the rest stays and nothing much happens. But an oil, a lot goes on there and goes acidic while it does that. So it's always safer to use waxes and to use oils on your levels. I am very impressed with your scientific knowledge. How did you acquire this? I went to university to study restoration and conservation of archaeological, ethnological and art-historic objects, specializing in organic materials. So, yes, actually that's university-grade boot-blacking. Yes, I can see your value as a teacher. Again. What are the parents for teachers? You learned the art, bro. Karl Heinz-Edel, I appreciate and I thank you for this amazing interview for Inside Leather History of Fireside Chat.