 Welcome back to Why In The Morning. I go by the name of Barry Moses. It's Barry Morning, the social media platform. And it's time for youth and politics. So I'll be bringing you this every single Monday. And be sure to interact with us on social media, at WhiteFive4 channel on Twitter, WhiteFive4 underscore channel on Instagram, and WhiteFive4 on Facebook. So I have amazing gentlemen in the studio with me today. But the issues we have on the table are the recent proposed budget by the CES of finance. We have the deputy president alleging that there are plots to assassinate him. And we also have the recent remarks by the MP of Australia, Charles Sinjagua, and the breeding of xenophobia in this country right now. So be sure to interact with us on social media, at WhiteFive4 channel on Twitter, WhiteFive4 underscore channel on Instagram, and WhiteFive4 on Facebook. Or you can hit me up directly at its very morning with the social media platform. And with me in the studio, we have Daniel Kongo, who's a legal expert. And we have Gunjiri Karyuki, who's a public policy analyst. Analyst, Karibunisana. Thank you. All right, so your cameras are number four and three. So you look straight into camera four and just introduce yourself. If I left anything out in your credentials, yeah. Okay, my name is Benio Kongo. I am an advocate of the High Court and I handle litigation matters, mostly court work and part of conferencing, which involves land and sale transactions. And I work in the law firm of HM Daisy, and company advocates, who happens to be the speaker of Big County. Yes, that's right. Thank you very much for coming. We've seen problems at the Kaja School of Law, but that's a topic for another day. Today we're going to be talking about the issues. Introduce yourself. Okay, my name is Karyuki Gunjiri. I'm a public policy analyst, and I'm delighted to be here this morning. After this discussion, perhaps we can push it further to social media on Twitter, at Dante Karyuki, on Facebook, Karyuki Gunjiri. And just before we begin, we have received very sad news this morning. Thank you very much for bringing that up by the way. The corporate leadership. And again, I wish to send my condolences. We have had a committed CEO in SafariCom. And today it was a shocker. But again, we leave all that to God, and I hope that God will fulfill the desires of the heart of the family of the believed, and that he can give them comfort. Yes, and on behalf... Thank you very much for having us this morning. On behalf of everybody else, and the one in the morning team, we send our condolences to the friends and family of the former CEO of SafariCom, Mr. Bob Collimo himself. So onto the matters at hand, we had the CES-4 finance proposing some things. In parliament, well, the budget, the budget is three trillion Kenyan shillings. It's the biggest ever. And my first question is, in the 2010 constitution, there was a provision for public participation from Mamamboga to the most elite Kenyan is allowed to participate in this budgeting process and resource allocation. So, so far, up to the tabling in parliament, do you think there has been enough public participation? We can start with you. Okay, I think with regards to the current budget of the Kenyan government, this is actually the highest budget ever seen. And I was reading the newspaper the other day and I saw that the Kenyan budget as it stands for three trillion is actually much more than Tanzania, Uganda, and Rwanda's budget combined. So that just tells you the volume of how the budget has expanded to this time of the year. And if you look at successive governments during Kibaki's regime, the budget wasn't as high as it is now. And it has been contributed with a lot of borrowing. There has been so much borrowing by the current government, as we see. But when it comes to public participation, the ordinary monarchy does not know even the budget-making process. Figures like three trillion are unimaginable. Somebody cannot even understand, conceptualize. How do you come up with three trillion? That is a billion times, a billion, three times. So in order for public participation to first of all take effect, there has to be an understanding of the budget-making process. And the ordinary monarchy needs to understand how in the first place is this budget made. Now, the Kenyan government is bilateral, which means there are two kinds of governing systems. There is the county government and there is the national government. And both these governments are legislated also through two houses. The first house is the parliament and the second house is the Senate. Now, the parliament deals with issues concerning the national government as per the constitution. The county government, all the matters relating to the devolution and developments in the counties is done by the Senate. So the very first step in the budget-making process is public participation. And for public participation to happen, there has to be, the first step is the Cabinet Secretary for Finance recommends policies for public participation regarding on what the public expect of the outcome of the budget. This recommendation, how is it done? And where can we find this recommendation? Exactly. Usually, there are ministries in different sectors of the government. There's a ministry for health, there's a ministry of education, there's a ministry of devolution. So all these ministries, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance issues directives that certain forms be filled through these ministries and officials are appointed to distribute these forms to a specific class of people. This class of people, there is what is called the Public Finance Management Act that provides for the county budget and economic forum. The county budget and economic forum has representatives from the marginalized communities, from organizations, and from different parastartal heads. All these people are chosen to represent the 40 million people, because there is no way 40 million people can give their views with respect to the budget. Yes, and even analyzing the views. And even analyzing the problems. So what I'm getting from you is that for there to be public participation, people have to know fast. Fast has to be that knowledge. Exactly, there has to be the knowledge fast of how the process. So what you're saying there's need for civic education? There's, what I'm saying is there's actually need for the public education. The public need to be educated on how the budget is created, how the budget is made, and after that, they should be taught how to participate in the process. Participate in the process. Thank you very much. As a public policy analyst, I think you can break it down for the layman easily. So what do you think about this particular? What happens in public policy is that a decision, are people that are going to be affected by a decision must be involved in its making. So you must try and collect their views as regards to whatever you want to apply to them as a government. Now, we have two levels of budget making process. We have at the national level, which is precipitated by the National Assembly. We just finished the budget cycle, whereby we had especially members of the budget committees going around various counties of this country and instituting what they would call the public voice. At the county level, we have what we call the county integrated development plan. We call them CIDPs. Now that is where the people come together and converge their views, whereby a plan is built upon what the public has to say. And the biggest problem that has been in the public participation process is because first we have not defined what public participation is, because as maybe a county, for example the county of Nairobi, I would hire several people, buy them some cheap snacks and bring them on board, then tell them that this is public participation and it will be written on paper that this is public participation. So it's treated as a formal excuse. And then they will pass whatever I feel should be passed. So we also need to have a good public education whereby people are educated. So whose role is it to educate the public? You see, we have... The government must invest in an elaborate public participation process whereby from the village elders up to the highest level of the presidency, any time that we... or any other leader, any time that we get an opportunity to speak to the public, we must tell them what is due to their lives. And we have seen so many problems in terms of counties misappropriating funds. For example, the people's priorities were something like water. And then we see another program that has... Going to watch the Afghan? Yes, that was not in the CID. So that is why I'm saying that both levels of government need to invest in an elaborate public participation process. Yes. All right, thank you very much. So we are living in an age where 80%, more than 80% of Kenyans are documented to have mobile phones and smartphones for that matter. All right, so do you think this is an angle that can be used to approach this public participation and education? Yeah, I think the world of today is digital. Everything is on social media. Even this will be aired out in social media, YouTube, platforms, Facebook. So the digital aspect of information is very important. And this can be disseminated through Facebook, YouTube and all these other digital platforms which can be accessed through the phone. So it can be actually a good way. The opinion polls and surveys which are done through online. So I think it's a way which it can really assist in the public being educated about public participation. All right, do you think the will is there to educate the public, to let the public understand and know about this, to educate the public and let the public know and understand these things about the budget? For an effective governance system, the stakes are high and we cannot afford to leave anything to chance whether it is through the use of social media, whether it is through the use of public rallies or any other avenue that would be appropriate to reach the public. Such avenue cannot be ignored. And with the will, I think anything can be done because what we have had is an elite class which capitalizes on the ignorance of the masses. And I think if they were serious and they were true to the calling, the natural call that is a service to humanity, then they will not be taking advantage of the unsophisticated masses. All right, these people will claim, all right, that they posted the documents. The auditor general will claim that all the audits have been posted online, all the audits have been gazeted. The public are free to go and acquire them and read them. But somebody, this begs the question, how many of us can understand books of accounts and the rest of these things? How do we approach this particular issue? First of all, when these government agencies say that you can get the auditing reports in the public domain, first of all, they are not very clear where exactly you can get these domains. There are several areas in the government, there are several devolutions, there are several ministries. So in order to narrow down, they need to be very specific. And if I'm a layman, someone who has never gone to school, you know, even the literacy rates, not many people are knowledgeable, how will they understand this information once they access it? So there needs to be a kind of mechanism the government provides to educate people on how to understand these budgetary allocations, all these auditing reports, all that information. So I think there's need for the government to move an extra mile in educating these people who are the literacy levels are not as good as the elite. What about simplifying these things, these records? And just telling us simply, this is what was proposed, and this is what we allocated, and this is how it was spent in simpler towns other than just having. Yes, yes, yes. That's what you're saying. The accounting, you see, we normally have, maybe you see the auditor general, we'll quote maybe perhaps qualified report and qualified report. So for a layman, that is also complex. So what we normally see is a situation whereby the media tries now to explain what this county, blah, blah, blah, blah, has done with the... And the guilty of picking the juicy stories from the report. Yes, yes, yes. So I don't know, but you know, the auditors use, it is just like maybe what I normally use as the political jargon. I might say some things that perhaps someone who is not of such adept will not understand. Same to him. Same to you. I heard there is another terminology in media called it's a wrap. So I don't know what that means to a common person. But again, as long as far as we also continue using those terminologies in those reports, we need to have a breakdown of, for example, the county of Nairobi had a budget of that billion. So how much was allocated to ministries? How much was allocated to, let's say, infrastructure or things like that? Development of the current expenditure. How much was not used? Because we have some counties which also have some monies that are left in their accounts. Then we have what we call the AFMIS which would ordinarily be a system that would ensure that there is accountability. Any transactions or any allocations that are done. And we have had problems with it so far. Yeah, we have had challenges. I cannot object that. But again, that also docks to what my colleague talked about that the people, the masses, needs to know in a case whereby a citizen can be able to assess a project. For example, Adam at his or her locality and look at what perhaps was allocated for the same project and try and see whether it makes sense, whether there is value for money. The monies that were allocated for that project. In Spain, right? Yes. Alright, so somebody told me from a neighbouring country that Kenyans, we like to complain so much. We complain but we never take action. So somebody was watching us right now. What is that first step they can take to participate in the public finance management? The first step the ordinary monies can take in participating in public finance management is first of all to follow the ministries. These allocations and budgetary making process, they emanate from the ministries. So I think ordinary monies needs to visit actually particularly the Ministry of Finance which is actually on the Harambe road and see, you can even request to see the Minister of Finance or somebody working in that office to be explained to on the budget making process. In that way the ordinary monies will be taking that initiative on a personal level to know. So the first step is to go there and follow up on the process. Then another thing that can be done is the ministries to go hands on the ground, circulate leaflets and the brochures on how the budget making process is done and how the public can be made to participate into this. So I think the very first step is the policy making on public participation. Remember the Ministry of Finance, particularly the Cabinet Secretary for Finance is mandated to make a policy on the public participation. The Minister of Finance, that is Henry Rottich. So that is the first step. It starts with the minister to ensure that the policies in making public the budget allocation should be in such a manner that it is the policies which can reach the public hands on. Then there is also the second aspect of the county executive committee. This one is for now the county governments. Because I remember I said there are two levels of government, the county and the national. And both of these levels have revenue allocated to them. So it is important for the public to be engaged both at national level and county level. So for the county level, there is a minister for finance in the county who is now mandated to make policies with respect to public participation. So they create forms and they should be able to make policies in such a manner that they distribute these forms to the public. And the public get educated on how they can participate and give their views through the county budget and economic forums which whose forums they give their views and their views are accommodated by the counties. So basically that is the first major step which the public can actually be involved in the budget making process. And there is this a professor, Professor Lumumba, once said that there is a common saying, give, if you want to hide something from an African, put it in a book and it will be hidden forever. So that tells a lot about the public culture, the public or the African culture. And the reading culture. The reading culture. Exactly. They don't have a reading culture. A reading culture is very important because if you don't read you can't be able to understand how these systems and processes work. So I think if the common ordinary monarchy can also try and redevelop a reading culture, they can be able to participate properly in the public finance management. Now manipulation and the NWU. Because we are talking about the prudent use of public resources as provided for in the public finance management act. Perhaps the first and the most basic responsibility for the citizens is to elect leaders that have an accountability track record and make sure that they don't take these to those offices. Then we have a selective process that is always done by government because they know. And this is in all levels, especially in the counties. They know that if the citizens are going to be flareware of whatever happens in those processes, some of them might be in trouble and they know what they have done. So apart from that selective process, we now have the civil society. We have like info track. We just did a study by the way that we were going to talk about. We have the further state, that is you guys, the media, that will now step in and fill that gap, be able to educate the common populace which does not understand these things. So I think more to the selective process by those in leadership, there is other processes. Like for example, and I've always maintained that the future of present day politics rests in town halls, whereby people will not be going to political rallies to chair leaders as they give them empty rhetorics. But they will go to town hall and now have one-on-one conversations whereby they can be able to ask questions. And also if there is something to do, then they can get their dues. Thank you very much for that view right there. WhiteFair4Channel on Twitter, WhiteFair4Channel on Instagram and WhiteFair4 on Facebook is the way to interact with us. If you've used comments, suggestions and questions coming, we have a legal expert in the studio, we have a public policy, public policy analyst in the studio, it doesn't get better than this. Onto our next topic now. And this is the recent remarks by MP of Australia, we saw a xenophobia taking root in South Africa, we criticized, we talked a lot of nonsense about South Africans. We saw it rooting in the United States, where we saw the president of the United States. We wanted to build a wall on the Mexican border. You see, ordinarily, an issue of foreign policy rests at the discretion of the president. So any issue that pertains to international relations, whether mutual or we are on the ones above it, that is at the wisdom of the president. And as I said earlier, we as the citizens, we also need to be very careful with the kind of leaders we elect. At least that will be a basic for a person like Jaguar to know that his power rests in the chambers. Any such kind of sentiments or any kind of remark that would protect local traders would better be affirmed at the floor of the house. At the floor of the house instead of at the market. Yes, but again, that also brings to the fore the debate of whether our leaders really understand the governance aspect of our democracy, because our country has a president. And the president is one that is supposed to either regain or comment on issues of international relations. And therefore, that matter would not have been a matter of a member of parliament when we have a sitting president. Moreover to that, the president would not utter such responsible remarks, bearing in mind that we have had a painful history of xenophobic issues in South Africa and as a continent, as we talk of agenda 2063, whereby people be socially and economically empowered. We cannot be having such kind of unnecessary statements coming from members of parliament. We also have Kenyans that live in Tanzania. We have Kenyans that go across the world, all over the world. We have Kenyans all over the world. Again, we are a member of the African Union Security Council. Members, we are a member of the Commonwealth as well. Yeah, but again, we have a very powerful position in Africa. We are a member of the EU Security Council, which is basically the very few countries that are the strongest. We are the ones who represent the East and the Horn of Africa. And therefore, we are just like in the UN, we have US, France, Germany, and Russia. So we are that in Africa. And thus, our responsibility is far much than what any person would think. So we need to have our responsibility taken into account and any move that we make of geopolitical importance must be very cognisive of the factors that are prevailing in the African continent right now. And we must not be the ones to divide. A member of the Security Council ordinarily is like, do I say a first born in the family? And he should be the one who is telling the others, this is what we should do. And so, let me say it was unfortunate and let the other members of parliament learn from that. However, we can also not forget that other countries also need to respect us as well. Yes, I like that you are getting into the politics of it. I'll let you speak on that in a few. But so you blame this on ignorance. Somebody gets... Yeah, because, for example, myself and there are a couple of members of parliament in that house who understand some of these basic things and they will not go uttering such remarks that will jeopardize our relations with Tanzania even if we have had hostile history with Mr. Bakufuli as a country that has... Even if you beat them in Africa? Yes, as the strongest. After now, that is another story because we also resent the political signal. By the way, that much had a lot of geopolitical significance and especially in the pre-varying approach of Jaguar and British use. So what is your... We've talked about that. I'll move on to the next since we now have so much time and I'd like you to address this issue on the allegations made by the deputy president, William Ruto, about threats to his life. Okay. There have been news going around regarding claims on the attempt on the life of the deputy president and it's an issue of national concern because this is one of the most important people in the country. This is the person who, in the absence of the president, becomes the acting president as stipulated in the constitution. So he is a very important person. So when a claim of that caliber arises, there ought to be thorough and proper investigations which are conducted with respect to the truth in those allegations. And if there's any culprits that are found, the proper action should be taken against them. So I think the allegations, when I read a national newspaper, three cabinet... Actually four cabinet secretaries were summoned by the directorate of criminal investigations to record statements with regards to the deputy president's allegations. Now, these three cabinet secretaries, Peter Munya, Joe Mosheru and Cecilia Karyuki for health, were summoned in the DCI, but they didn't give a statement. The reason why they didn't give a statement was because the complainant didn't give a statement. In an official way, in an official man. So in my opinion, the very first step that was supposed to happen is in such serious kinds of allegations, particularly touching on very important persons in government. The directorate of criminal investigations, George Kinotti, is mandated to write in written form summons regarding those allegations to the people who are being suspected. Then all the heads of serious crimes unit make a written kind of application. Then the summons should be served to the people involved. So it should be done in such a manner that it's official. Then the complainant, which is the deputy president, is required to record a statement because in our criminal justice system, only a complainant who complains against a certain thing needs to come out, prove and say that I have received death threats or these people are discussing on how to eliminate my existence. And present your evidence. And present your evidence. Then the other party is mandated to record their statements in response to this evidence that the complainant, which in this case is the deputy president, has issued. And that did not happen. That did not happen. And then we saw the director of public prosecution introducing or stating that they have outsourced the FBI to help with the investigation. So this is our last remark. Yes or no answer. Do you think this was necessary? And what does it do to the image of our sovereignty as a country? Okay, do I comment all? All right. Yes or no answer. Did we, was there a need to outsource? To outsource the FBI. The FBI. Yes. You see, at such a matter where you know the deputy president in his capacity as a sitting deputy to the president is not himself. He's our deputy president. And as such, he's treated as a property of the state. And therefore, his security is not, is guaranteed at any level. And anything that would jeopardize his security must be taken seriously. Whether or not we have the FBI, the people if at all, there are people that are planning to do that, let the agencies that are supposed to do the investigations, whether FBI or the Kenyan system, do the investigations. So for me, for me, the issue should be treated with importance. Whether FBI or not, that is not a matter of sovereignty or not. It is a matter of expertise and experience as well as independence. Thank you very much. What do you think about this? I think on the issue of the directorate of criminal investigations outsourcing the FBI, there's never really an ex... Is that what you're asking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's never really an express provision that bars the director of criminal investigations from outsourcing if the level of claims or allegations touch on a very important person like the deputy president. So it might use that help to make sure that the investigations are adequately and perfectly conducted to protect the life of the deputy president. Thank you very much. Here comes the end of this social media handles on Camera 4 so they can interact with you to get more of this information. So we can perhaps push this conversation forward on Facebook, Karyoki Gonjiri on Twitter, at Danti Karyoki. We can continue the discussions there. Thank you very much. Exactly. And my Facebook name is Benair Okongo. You can get me also on Instagram as Benair. And in case you have any issues, you can be able to address me on my Facebook page. You can add me as a friend or follow me. Then we can be able to discuss any further issues which you may have. All right. And we'll be doing this every single Monday, youth and politics for you on why and the morning. And mine is at It's My Morning, every social media platform. And Calamival is coming up next because we're with men's talk. You don't want to miss this. It's a hot topic.