 to our community of practice introduced Joy Zabala, and I didn't put joy conversation from the horse's mouth, because I will just talk a little bit differently about that. Lots of you have heard my story about meeting joy for the first time, but maybe I'll just tell that again. It was that closing the gap. I don't know how many years ago now, two or three, ha ha. And Joy and Penny and Gail Bowser and Jane Corsten, and I went back into my room that night and wrote in my diary that I have just met the four wise women of assistive technology. And I continue to believe that with all of my toenails. So we're very, very happy to have Joy join this evening and also welcome to everybody. I can't really tell right now how many of you are joining us, but welcome to all of you. Just some background for Joy in terms of the number of folks and maybe a little bit of an update for those of you who are on. I made this a couple of days ago and it was almost 300 people on our email and list. There are now more than 300 people on our emailing list. Joy to give you a sense of who's here. There are 200 some around 200 SLPs. They not all are on, but that's our group. About 35 occupational therapists. About 10 people who identified as teachers are although there may be teachers among the others as well. Seven people who identified as assistive technology consultants or specialists. 10 who, about 10 who identified as inclusive, oops, an inclusive or divers. No, diverse learning consultants. Oh dear, that's terrible. And then the rest of this crew is made up of managers, team leaders, administrators, early childhood and some literacy. So we've got a lovely mix of people across Alberta. For those of them who aren't joining proper today, I imagine that they're going to be watching the webinar. So what brought us to this? So the set framework has been talked about and used in Alberta for decades now probably or at least one decade, I'm sure. So there's lots of people who know about the set framework and there's many people who are using the set framework, but we still have questions about it. And there's some folks who we hear are kind of, they kind of heard about it, but kind of unsure what it is and how to be used and all of that. I feel that way a lot, you know. So our, we have this golden opportunity to have a conversation with the person who created the set framework. And I don't even know how many years ago that was, Joy. And to have a conversation with you and how others sort of give people some background, how we friend this is I made this solid little PowerPoint because Joy asked me if I have too much time in my hands or something and maybe to guide with some guiding questions. And then basically from those questions, just have a dialogue. So I'm also hoping that some of you may have some questions or some comments so that it doesn't have to be just me in dialogue with Joy, but certainly that's the intention of how this is going to go is just some conversation around some questions and thoughts around set framework. So I'll quit talking now, Joy. Do you want to just give us the overview of what is this? What is this thing of which we speak the set framework? Well, basically probably, you know, the set is an acronym for Student, Environment, Tasks, and Tools. It came about because people were doing a pretty good job of matching features of tools to the needs and strengths of individuals more to their needs, probably, than their strengths at that time. And I can't see the kind of changes that we thought we would see when that happened. And we spent, oh, hours talking about why things didn't work. And at one point, you know, maybe we should focus on why things do work. And when you started listening to the conversation around that, there was a pretty good indication that we weren't just thinking about matching a student with tools, but the tool system, which may have included a device but also included services and other supports, really had to not only be useful to the student, but had to be environmentally friendly. It had to work where the student needed to use it, and it also had to be very useful in terms of the tasks that the student needed to be able to do. So the framework sort of came out of that, of me trying to explain to a person, these were back in the day where thinking about assistive technology tended to focus on students with probably the most important support needs. And as we started moving toward thinking about students with high incidence needs, like students with learning disabilities, the questions sort of became a little bit different, because, and one of my colleagues was a person who really lived sort of in that LD world. And people would call him and he'd run into my office and he'd say, okay, somebody's on the phone, they wanna know what the best, at the best seventh grade math software is. And it was like, get it. I said, well, we have to know some other things. And we would talk about, you know, so what is it that needs to be able to do? And, oh, just hurry up. They need an answer. They don't have time for all of that. After sort of, and then he, you know, just be upset and run out of the room and said, you just don't understand high incidence disabilities. Well, I think I might, but, so I was in his office one day and I said, Michael, and I'm drawing on the whiteboard and I say, if we have to know who the students are, what is it that they need to be able, and then we have to know, you know, what's the environment like? And he was talking about very technology-based stuff. So I said, you know, you have to know, are the computers, what brand are they? What operating system are they running? Those kinds of things. And I put the big E up there, you know, and you have to know how many kids there are and all these things. And then I said, and you have to know the task that they're really looking at. When you say math software, what is, what do you want the kids to be able to do with that software? And I write the first key and I said, you know, when you know who the students are, what the environments are, what the tasks are, then it's possible to think about the tools. And I drew the second key. And he took a step back and he said, oh, why didn't you tell me that before? Well, I did. And then he said, you know, that's a thing. And I said, what do you mean? He said, that's a thing. And I said, well, what is it? He said, that's a step. I can do that. I can remember that. And that was sort of the birth, you know, if I'm the mother of the set framework, my friend Michael is the father. Because he sort of made me do it. And because of that, that was in 1995, that long ago, I went to closing the gap and I was actually talking from the perspective of the practitioner, not the evaluation person or anything like that. It was, my day was on implementation. There were three of us doing a eight o'clock in the morning session for the whole few days of the conference. The first day was assessment. The second day was implementation. And the third day was really looking at writing a collaborative IEP. And so in my implementation day, I just mentioned, I said, you know, we really have to think not just about the students, but also the environments and the tasks. And before we think about how we're gonna use those tools well. And that was about what I said. The next year, the set framework was at a whole bunch of other people's stops. So that was exciting. I think for me, one of the most exciting things was my big concern with the framework was that people would think that if they didn't know about assistive technology tools, they had no voice in the processes. And so for me, it was thinking about the newbies and knowing that knowing about the student and the environment and the tasks was probably more important than really knowing which tools matched all of that because there's always somebody to help you with that. Caroline Musselite said to me, that makes such a difference because now I know how to explain it to people. I was like, oh, that felt very nice because I wasn't thinking about it as being for the people who have really been deeply involved in AT for a long, long time. So that's sort of the history. Nice, nice. And I've heard some of those stories before, but to me, I think it just had such an organic. It just came organically. And then what you're also saying is that it helps really newbies, but the Caroline Musselite's of the world. And certainly for me, I can't think any other way now than that's what it is. So yeah, you've made up your mind. But you know, but that's what it's about. That's why when people say set process, I sort of get a little uncomfortable because while using the framework and making decisions requires some kind of process, the framework doesn't dictate a process. It may help you make whatever processes you're doing, hopefully better, stronger, more effective, more efficient. But when people say the set process, my question is sort of always the same. So what is the process that you are calling the set process? Nice, yeah. And I think, and I mean, I think we'll talk some questions down the road, but I think that is something that people can to get into some kind of a lock step process instead of doing it more organically or using the framework in a more organic way. But let's leave that conversation to a couple of slides down from now. And I just because... I can't see them, so you're in charge of that. Oh, okay. So because we're talking most specifically about AAC, and I know that is your background too, just do you wanna talk a little bit about how we can use that framework to help us make appropriate decisions around AAC for kids with complex conditions? And I know you talked about it generically, but maybe if you know. Yeah, and Kathy, you can guide me here a bit, but I think when we think about AACOM, we talk about what the students need to know and be able to do. Well, you communicate is huge and it involves, if you go straight to the tools, it involves really lots of possibilities from the lowest tech to the highest tech and probably a combination. I always think about people having a high tech communication that aboard where they put yes on there or some of other things that can be done with natural gestures if the student has natural gestures for that and that doesn't mean that I don't think there should be a yes on the communication board because they might be talking on the phone, but you don't, I think using the framework in thinking about that is what does the student need to say is a really important piece because what a three-year-old needs to say and what a 20-year-old needs to say are vastly different. I think a lot of times when I think about AACOM, the idea that sometimes when someone can't say something very quickly or very well or at all, we think they don't have anything to say and I know that my great interest in AACOM came oddly enough from a very different place that I lived in a country where I didn't speak the language well and I knew a whole lot about pretending like I understood but I didn't understand, but I had a lot to say and I actually taught in an American school, this is in Venezuela, taught in an American school and everybody talked about how fast my students picked up the language and I was struggling so much with it myself at Spanish because my students came from a lot of different language backgrounds but my students needed to say throw me the ball, give me that, I'm running here, I wanna be on your team and lots of other kinds of things where I needed to have a parent conference. So the vocabulary I needed, my core vocabulary would have been very different than their core vocabulary so I think the way I would apply thinking in terms of the set framework to this is okay, really zeroing in on what those communication tasks are that this person has and the tasks fall directly out of the environment but they're also related to the student because you could say in our environment these are the kinds of things that a kid needs to talk about and I don't know, I guess as I say this I wonder if I fly in the face of the core vocabulary movement, I'm not sure because I'm talking about rather specific kinds of things one needs to be able to say with not a great deal of effort, which of course, it really depends a lot not only on what they need to say but when you think about the student, what is, how old is the student? Can they, how much effort does it take to communicate? And what we know I think is that if the effort is too great, it won't happen and which is why I guess I have trouble with the yes on the communication board when I can do this just fine or you know that when I do this, it means yes. I think, I mean, I don't think anything you said lies in the face of core vocabulary because I think that's the core but what I really and reminded me when you think about that and I remember back in the day, I don't know if anybody was on from the ICANN but when kids used to come to the ICANN and they'd talk about meeting communication system and really we'd go through the whole day and so bringing in some of the participation model kind of stuff, what's going on here and what are the other kids talking about and I think that is spending a whole bunch of time on the E and the first P then helps us to say, okay, even if you're really focusing on core, well, what are the power core words that you're gonna think about here and what are the power core words that they're gonna, that might be give them some clout with their friends if they are in junior high or senior high, right? And maybe we need to think about giving them some other words in their fringe because at that moment, those kind of fringe words, they're not gonna be the kind of fringe words that they're gonna be using in school with their educational system but it might be the fringe words that will give them some power when they're with their friends and hopefully the EA is away. But anyway, so yeah, I think those are really, really good. I mean, that's a really important reminder and that communication is multimodal, right? And so it's not just about what device are we gonna use now? It's that whole multimodal system that is, yeah, so lovely. The next question that I have, but it's sort of a, I think I know the answer is kind of a silly question, but in your experience, is making decisions around AAC different than making decisions around other types of assistive technology? That's a, I don't know, I don't know. I should not think in some ways, I would say no. And in other ways, maybe I think sometimes, you know, if someone needs a writing tool or whatever, which is of course written communication, but if someone needs a writing tool, there may be a lot of writing tools that would potentially meet their needs. When we think about communication, because we want that to happen everywhere they go, we want a very expanded range of tools, if you will. And again, when I say tools, I'm not just talking about a device, but you know, the gestures, everything. Then I think we have to be able to talk about multiple, it happening in multiple environments, both in school and the multiple environments that are there, but also in the community, within the family, even more than we do with some of the other kinds of tools that might be needed, even though I think we should certainly for multiple environments for every tool. So that's, I guess that's why I'm hedging just a little bit, but I think one time about myself. Okay, I learned, I was a Gen Ed teacher. I came to special ed by accident, as you know, Kathy. I can tell that story sometimes to everybody else if I see you, but it's a long story. And I came to high tech communication without really any notion of low tech. And there was nobody where I was who was looking at that whole range of possibilities. And I remember someone saying to me, well, Joy, you know, it is all high tech. There are a lot of low tech and strategies. And I'm thinking, okay. And I was setting up, I had set up a communication device with a high tech device with a parent of a child. And the mom actually wanted to take over most of the programming, which, you know, since that was the sitting in your bed on Sunday morning before church programming the device, that was really kind of nice, you know. But she came in one day and she had 128 display. And remember, this was way before the dynamic display. So, you know, everything was there. Off the talker. Yeah, and I looked at what, it was actually a touch talker in that particular case. Yeah, but it had food, all these foods, but there were no verbs. There were foods and please and thank you. And I'm, you know, in my good, having learned a lot by this time, I said to the mom, I said, hi, I'm a little concerned that there aren't any verbs. And she said, well, we go, we go to the cafeteria that was close to the town where we all lived, or was in the town where we all lived. We go there for dinner as a family about twice a week. And she said, Angel uses her board. She buys her, she gets her own food. She says, please, whatever, thank you to the people. I'm like, go for it, take it, you know. Because it was wonderful functional use of what she had. She didn't need to say, I would like to have some spaghetti, but she'd just say spaghetti please, which was what everybody else in that line was saying. And so I think that was one of the things that made me so passionate now about the involvement of families and the involvement of the students themselves in going through and thinking about all of these things. So that's more than you wanted me to say. No, it's interesting. And one of the things, and I think the same and different, that there's lots of the same things, but one of the things that, for me, a little different is that we're also often choosing a language system for this child that they have to grow into. It's not compensating for something in the same way as a writing tool or a reading tool, but it's making decisions about language systems. And I think today we know a lot about that. And so I love your answer that yes and no, and I think it is yes and no, because I think AAC has got another level of complexity that perhaps not all of the other AP decisions have. Well, I also think too, I mean the complexity of the communication partners as well. When you think about the tools, and basically in the set framework, that second P, the tools, I know I've said a couple of times, it's not just the devices, but it's the training, it's the support, it's everything that's needed for that student in those environments to be able to do those tasks to move forward. And a lot of what actually has to happen in that tool system is enriching that environment so that that student is able to communicate with what they have. And people understand the notion that if one sees oneself as a communicating person, one will use everything they have to communicate. If they see themselves as a person who nobody understands at all, then less and less and less communication takes place. So supporting the environment, those people in the environment who are going to be the communication partners, be they adults or be they peers or both, hopefully, that's a really key element of making sure that the user of the AUGCOM sees themselves as a communicating person. Yeah, huge, and not again, I think that's an, and we'll maybe talk about, so there's the next question. If there's some mistakes that people have been using when it's set framework for things that people could avoid making mistakes. And so I'll let you talk to that. But I'll let you talk to that. And then maybe I'll throw a couple of other little sliders into it. Sure, see what happens. Considering that the World Series, which is only confined to the United States, it's actually going on, but we do think we're in the center of the world, apparently. Anyway, I'd really like to come up there with you guys. Anyway, the, I think, what's the question again? Sort of, are there, how might people wrong turn, make mistakes? Okay, one of the things is one that I already mentioned. Saying that the framework is a process, which really is a framework, the framework guides your process. It helps you think about, have you got enough information to really move forward? Because we could have a great conversation about the student de-environment and the tasks and have more information and time spent than we needed, or we could realize we never talked about the environment and what we need to be doing there. And I think the other mistake, or what I consider a huge mistake, is thinking that you have to talk about the student, then talk about the environment, then talk about the tasks. Because really what you want to have is a conversation with that everybody's participating in. If I'm the one, I don't even always tell everybody, we're going to use this framework to do this. I just say, so, let's get started. Kathy, we're going to be talking about your communication needs and how we might meet those needs. And so tell me a little bit about yourself. And if you have a way to communicate now, you may be able to do that. Other people may want to tell me something about you, but the student's always the center of that process. But take this example. Let's say I'm Kathy, your fourth grade teacher. And I come to the meeting and I say, you know, I'm really concerned about Kathy. And I'm not going to use an odd com example right now, but I'm really concerned about Kathy because, you know, we're doing word problems now. And all of my 26 other fourth graders seem to be pretty good. At going through those word problems and coming up with the right answer. But what I'm seeing with you, Kathy, is that you can explain to me what you're supposed to do. You can tell me what the operations are. But when it comes time for the answer, a lot of times it doesn't work to suit you or me does it. And of course you're going to agree with me. Well, so think about in that little conversation, what do you know about the student? Well, first you know that the student is there. You know that the student hopefully has said, yeah, they agree that this is an area of concern. This math, word problems and math. So math is your big area of concern where the student is having difficulty. And you know some things about the environment. You know that there are 26 other kids. You know that the other kids are pretty much getting this. You know that there's a concerned teacher in that environment, which is a very good thing. I wasn't saying Kathy needs to go out of my room because she's not right for here. Really looking at how do we make this happen for her. And we know that the task absolutely directly relates to word problems. And another thing to go back to the student, we know that she can explain exactly. She can read the word problems. She can explain what the operations are, but she's still having difficulty with the writing. So all that was in that one little statement. And so you can't talk about the student without talking about the environments and the tasks. So if I happen to be leading a meeting, I make three columns on a piece of paper. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. It doesn't have to be a form. And as people are talking, I write what I hear about the student. I write what I hear about the environments. And I write what I hear about the tasks. And at some point, which can be really quickly, if the difficulties are not very complex or could be quite lengthy if the student has complex needs, then I say, well, all right, here's what we've said about the student and read whatever it is that's in that column. And then I say, is there anything we need to add? Is there anything that needs further discussion? And here's what we said about the environments. Anything we need to add? Are there some things that we want to talk about more here? And then here are the tasks that we're concerned about. And when everybody says, oh, yeah, that's pretty much it, and we all have some consensus, level of consensus about the who, the where, and the what for, is it okay? We have a pretty good picture of Kathy of the environments in which she's working and being at the moment and the tasks that she's having difficulty with. So if there were something out there that would help Kathy in her customary environments do the tasks she needs to do, what would that be like? And I use that as my transition to tools because people who do not know the features of tools and think they don't know anything about technology will do an amazingly good job of describing what they think something would be like. If I said what features would a system of tools for Kathy need to have, you go immediately into that, I don't know about tools, and you miss that really good opportunity to see what people are thinking would help her move forward. I love that, and I think it's exactly for the reason that you just said is if you could, let's imagine if there was something and then we can start to figure out if there is or if there isn't or if there's something close, right? But it's that letting people, everybody in the room feel like they have the expertise that is required because, and I've heard you say this before, because they do. They might not know about the task, but they certainly know about that other piece. They may be an expert of the student or if you're the teacher of the family, you are the expert of the environment because you're the one that's, for a large part, creating that environment. And I think that's what I got two or three of the things that I think are difficulties or where people can go off. But certainly the first three, the SEC are intimately related to each other and can't really be pulled apart. They're pulled apart for the purpose of specificity to the environment is not just a fourth-rate classroom. What's happening there? What's it like there? And then when we get to the tools, what does that environment need in order to be this place, not only for Cathy to learn and grow and communicate, but for everybody else to learn and grow and communicate? Yeah. And so that brings to mind a couple of things for me. One is the idea of putting, and I like this one, it's masterful, is to try and... I don't believe everything she says. Well, it's been magical for me. It is to actually create a shared document where everybody can see what's being written down and to pull from the conversation as it's coming up some of those key things rather than making people go around the table and do those kinds of things. And the other thing is that it gives people permission and actually encourages or challenges people to not just go through the scripted set questions as they are written out somewhere, line-by-line sentence by sentence, but to do organically, right? And I think that, and your example is really great in terms of supporting or illustrating that. I think people have this notion that it takes a long time to go through, to use the... to do it to create that, to have a conversation about whatever process you're using that is guided by the framework. They think, oh my goodness, all those questions are not important. If the question is not important, don't ask it. Ask the ones that aren't important. Don't ask the things you already know and agree upon, but dig deeper into things that you don't. I think the other really big, interesting thing for me is how the framework has sort of been co-opted into an assessment tool. And I don't mean that I don't think it has a price of assessment. It certainly does. But it's really about all through the whole service delivery, thinking about peace from consideration all the way through to evaluating the effectiveness of what's currently in place. And because it's very easy. Maybe this doesn't happen in Canada. I mean, people will say, it's not working. The tool is the wrong tool. We need another tool. That may not be the issue at all. The issue may be something totally different. And so if you go back and you think, all right, what are we currently doing with our tool system? Is there a mismatch there with the student? And a lot of times the answer is really no. But is there a mismatch in the environment? Oh, let's see. Have we provided the kinds of services and reports that are needed for this student to learn to use their tool well? Or are we still fighting the student because the student doesn't want to use this thing? Right. You know, which is a whole nother ball game in on com. And so then we think about, all right, what can we do differently? It isn't always that there's a better tool. There's a better device. Are we doing it in an inviting, enriching way? Are we using it in that way or helping the student use it in an inviting, enriching way that matters to them? Like you said, about the middle schools and the high schools talking to their friends. Very different than talking to their teacher or their parent, hopefully. Because you know what? Everybody says things they shouldn't say to their teacher and their parent. And unfortunately, when somebody is an outcome user, sometimes that results in somebody saying, oh, well, that will go on the shelf. You will not say those kinds of things. But when a student who is speaking in a typical way with their own voice says bad words or things that are meant for their peers that are being used with others, we'll cut their tongue out. We teach them that's not what you do when you're talking to me. And if you do it again, there's a consequence. But we don't remove the ability to make those sounds. We help them understand the appropriate use of those words. Does that make sense? Absolutely. One of my favorite papers is about AAC, is how to say the F word in the nicest possible way. Anyway. No, beautiful. Usually it's using another language. Yeah. All right. So I think you've already hit on this, but I'm just going to go back to it because I think we're kind of going back there right now in a way. And I'm going to... That's OK. Go ahead. Tools refer to everything and anything that's made by the student and our people supporting the student, I think you said number five. And did I get that right? Yeah. OK. So you want to expand upon that, especially in terms of AAC, and you talked a little bit about training, other kinds of things that you want to... You know, there's so much, and I think a lot of it has to do with... I keep going back to the communication partner. And the things that the communication partner has to know and to... Sometimes work... Often work through with the individual using the AAC device. The person who is resisting using it will maybe have a voice, and they are understood at home. And the parent says, we understand everything they say. Why should we worry about this? You know what? They may be telling you the absolute truth. Yeah. But what if they're with an unfamiliar partner? So you have to say... You know my friend, Kate, who... Speech is so disarthered that it utterly exhausts me to talk to her for 10 minutes. You know, because I'm working so hard to understand. And yet, in her family, everybody understood, everyone knew the problem. And so one of her things, when she was a high school student, which now she's actually a colleague, but when she was a high school student, I would say to her, you know, yeah, but Kate, when you're talking to people that don't understand you, and she said, oh, people will tell me if they don't understand. And I said, no, they won't. They will not tell you. They will smile and nod, and then they'll find a way to leave the conversation. And so it's up to you to notice what I call the veil of understanding going down. And I think there are things that we do that people have to become very sensitive to about that veil. What does it look like when somebody's going, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. And they're nodding and they're smiling and they have no idea. And the reason I think I'm especially sensitive to that is that's how I was in Spanish. I knew how to say, que lastima no me diga, no me diga. Que lastima, oh, because I knew it was sad whatever they were talking about. Because I could tell from their facial expressions it was sad, or it was outrageous, or it was happy, and I knew what to say in response. And so I said to Kate, you have to be thinking about that. And the only way we got her moving forward was, because she wanted to use her voice, was to say, okay, let's make your outcome device your backup system. And use your voice all you want. And when you get to that point where you see that veil, or if someone asks you, could you say that again, please, a bunch of times, you might want to say, oh, would you like me to use my backup system? I see you're having difficulty understanding. You know, it still puts the ball right back on. In her court, she's in charge, but she has a repair strategy that's really good. And interestingly enough, once she, once we said to her, use your voice unless she'd be your backup, she got very involved in it being as good a backup as it could possibly be, where she was just resistant before that. Now, I do realize every student does not have the ability to do that, or learn to do it, but I think probably more people have the ability to learn to do that than we give them credit for. You know, that assumed incompetency where we really want to assume competency and to enable someone to show and build that competency. We don't do someone a favor by pretending to understand them and leaving them really knowing that they, at some level, that they were not understood, because that's when things go inward instead of outward, which is what we, of course, want for everybody. Brilliant. Yes, absolutely. And you, this, to me, just highlights, and especially, I mean, being here to the important, seeing kids in schools and the final T, the last T tools, which is giving and wrapping around those communication partners that supports the training, the time for practice, the time to learn this, not quite other language, but almost other language, to, and I think that being really, that one of the things that I really value about the SET framework is that idea that we pay specific attention to that and that there's not going to be any technology in the world that's just going to magically work. But especially in AAC, there's some front-end loading, not only more so, perhaps, on the communication partners than in lots of the other areas of AAC. Oh, I think so. And we, because one of the supports for others, in it, if you see some of my stuff I've written, I really talk about the tool for the student and the tools for others. And there's a place there that talks about the operation of the device, which you do have to, well, for some students, you have to know that a lot, but for other students, you really don't have to know that very much. But then there's the ability to integrate the student using the device into the life around them, whether it's in the classroom or in the cafeteria or in the community or at home. And being able to ask a question in such a way that is actually answerable, you know, that, and it doesn't take five minutes for it to be answered. I think a lot of times when I was talking a little bit earlier about some of those sort of quick and dirty things you need to be able to say, where you're not really putting a whole sentence together, it's already a sentence. You know, if you're, this is probably not a great example, but I remember this from my students. They had a store where they sold popcorn and something else. I don't remember. It was a, it wasn't a real store, but it's, you know, one of the things that you did at school. It was a real thing that everybody wanted to be a part of. And, you know, there were some sentences that were put into those communication aids so the kids could say, what would you like to have? It cost this much. All of those things because real time made a big difference in those things. So we didn't want them to have to say, hang on there for five minutes while I put my six words together to be able to say this. And even though, of course, we want them to be able to put six words together in a variety of ways. So... Yeah. No, that's exactly, exactly. And I think, again, it's about that goes to the environment, right? What's going on in this time? It does. Well, one of the teachers that I worked with who was so wonderful in my early AUGCOM days, she had some things that she wanted to make sure were on the student's communication board. She said, and I said, well, do all of your students say those same things? And she said, I think so. And so we, you know, we did some observation and discussion, and there were some very specific things that she wanted her students to say in responsive that she didn't even realize she was wanting them to say. Her name was Miss Francis, and they would say, I can't remember what all, but yes, Miss Francis, no Miss Francis, whatever. Even though they had to have yes and no without Miss Francis connection to it, yes, Miss Francis was something that was expected of everybody in the room. Not just yes. So. And sometimes, and I mean, I will, this is an interesting comment because I get, I think it's really important to also have those times to put those words together on your own, as you already said, but sometimes having that can just present you in a different light to the world, which can make a huge difference for wanting to use it for all kinds of other reasons. Yeah. Sure. All right. So I'm going to, aha. So I often, and this is me, I'm having a third T. So I often wonder if there should be another T in the set framework, a T for teams. Can you talk about that and your notion of creating a shared vision? And maybe I would think teaming might be part of the tools. Yeah. Okay. For others. Yeah. For others, because one of the things for others is decision-making, problem-solving, concerns identification. I actually try to say concerns identification rather than problems. No. Just because it's, just for a lot of reasons. But yeah, the, I think the whole idea is about teaming. Yeah. And that's kind of what I'm getting at. Yes. It's how important it is to have not just, I mean, and again, this sort of goes, I've, you know, the parent's home, the form's first batch, and then Tenda, and then the teacher does the form, and then somebody, and that's what I'm trying to get you to talk about is how we feel that shared vision. Well, I think, to me, we all come to the table with our own, our own thoughts, in our own observations, in our own lenses, if you will. And I think with, with this set framework, one of the things that happens is, we begin our conversation by what Kathy thinks, what Joy thinks, what somebody else thinks, all the people, what whoever's there is thinking. But by having that discussion and not being, excuse me, judgmental within that discussion, which I think is a huge piece, how we talk to each other, how we ask for clarification or information. That by the time we get to those, the S and the E and the T, I don't know if you noticed, but when I was saying, when I was saying, well, here's what, what we have about the students. Here's what we've said, is you've moved from the I to the we at that point. And so, you're really acknowledging the gifts that everyone brings. And, and I think to that we, teaming is so important because of those different approaches we have, sometimes based on our professional preparation, sometimes based on whatever notions we have about the students or about the family or the environments. I think we speak differently when the people we're speaking about are present. And I think that's critically important to teaming. Actually, I don't know if you do this or not. And Kathy, I can't see you anymore. Oh, yes. Oh, there. You just needed to talk to somebody else. It moved to somebody else. I think it's, I'm actually against the notion of staffing, which is something that we do. Sometimes it's all the school people get together and we try to make the decision that we're going to make and propose to others. Only sometimes it doesn't even sound like a proposal. Sometimes it sounds like this is what we're going to do. And I think doing that without the family and the student is just, it's icky. And I think we talk differently. And we also need to talk differently to our peers and our fellow professionals. If I say something that sounds really off base, let's use you. If you say something that's really off base or that, from my perspective, is really off base. And I say, well, why do you think that? Okay. You're either going to do that or you're going to go, you know, it's not going to be a neutral response. But if I say, tell me more about that. You know, which is really what I want to know. Then I think we, I think we have a much better opportunity to see ourselves as actually a team. Because we're looking at valuing each other and moving forward together. And one thing I think probably and I know time is fleeting, but I think the more, the more that we're all involved in every step, the more invested we are in making things work. If I come in and tell you, well, we have had a meeting, we've decided this in this year, but you need to do in your classroom. And you've not been involved in the conversation. I don't know about you, but I would be like, oh, thank you so much. As soon as you're out of range, I'm saying, she doesn't know my life. She doesn't know what's happening in this classroom. I mean, I might have all the good intentions in the world, but I'm not going to be invested in the same way. And I, I, I struggle a lot with the overused term of buy-in. Well, Kathy didn't buy into that or the family didn't buy into that or whatever. Somebody didn't buy in. That's something that you're expecting someone else to do. What if we said engaged? Kathy's not yet engaged. Okay. Whose job is it to engage, Kathy? That's my job. You know, I have to figure out how to make this right for the teacher or the parent by really involving them, not after the fact, but during the discussion. And this is really something that comes up when someone comes in and says, I want a Super Alpha numerator for my student or for my child. Well, okay. Let's think about this. Let's look and see what our student and environment and the tasks are like. And you know what, that Super Alpha numerator might be just the right thing. But let's talk about some of these things first and look at what needs to be in the system. Because if you do that and you start getting, nobody wants to make stuff more difficult for a kid. I don't think I've ever come across anybody that wanted them to make things harder. But if they don't understand not only the barriers lowered but the barriers raised, then they can't move away from the tool that they think is the right answer. Yeah, perfect. I'm lovely. And I think the whole notion of doing this together, bringing people on board together, engagement is so critical. And it's often a step. And I can say me, you know, I guilty of stuff that I miss along the way, right? And here's the next question is going to, I think, hit and you've hit about it a little bit already. It takes so much time. So I want to talk about that. Yeah, James, he's really, he's really having trouble with written productivity. He needs to write essays. He can use his pencil. He can fill in blanks. He can do all of these but these essays are really a problem for him. What should we do? Oh, well, he needs something to help him write. Can he use a keyboard? Yeah, he can. Can he, you know, whatever. It's a simple little problem. It took no time. We talked about the task and we didn't really talk much about the environment at that point in that little blah, blah, blah I just said. But, you know, we know that at school he doesn't use a computer to do his writing, but at home he doesn't work on a computer. Okay, so there are two very different environments there. So we ask James, do you do your homework independently? Yep. We look at his mother. He's sitting there, of course, and she confirms that, yep, that he does. I have all I need to say, let's get him a keyboarding device, you know, but we also have to keep in mind as we're evaluating the effectiveness of what we're doing that if he's not using, if he's not doing well, even though he's perhaps using his device, he might not understand the writing process. So it's not just always the device. So I think in that case that his issue is find motor and it's easy to deal with. It took no time other than we agreed that this, now if somebody on the team had said, oh no, wait a minute, James has to, I want to know what rate of, you know, how many words for a minute can he write and what is error rate? Because, you know, we don't want to give him something that's not going to work for him. Me, I could care less. If he's doing it adequately now, big deal. But if somebody does, what happens here is what you want to find out in your discussion has to do with how you frame an assessment. I don't need to know how fast he types, but if somebody else wants to know that in the error rate, then one of the things we have to do is a test that will show that. Because there are plenty of those. So the other thing then, and I'm going to put, I'm going to take words that I've heard you say before, because for some of our kids it does take a fair amount of time. A long time. It does. But I quote you all the time to say, but as you think, I know what you're going to say. It's time that you're going to do anyway. Those kids don't get the time back while we're running over and over. Exactly. So it does. If these are intensive, and I'll come there, you should be intensive. If these are intensive, it does take time. And that front loading is just like you said, it's really, really important time. Because you're going to spend the time doing it over and over and over again to try to get it right. If you haven't spent that up front time, you're still going to have to of course tweak and move and change. But you're not going to have to sort of start all over again because it's not working and we have to start again. And what's lost in that two ways to spend your time is irretrievable student learning time. It just goes, it's gone because you weren't aligned at the beginning. Beautiful. Perfect. All right. So we've got about five minutes left. I'm wondering if there are other folks who are on the chat with us who would like to also on chat, like to ask some questions. You can ask in the chat. You can grab your mic. This story will just give them some time. They often don't. You know, the only foolish question is the one that isn't asked. That's right. So don't worry about that. Okay. Being none, you can change your mind. I'm going to, that's very common in our group, Joy. They're very, they're, what? Toby said something. It went away. What do you think about sending out the strengths, needs ahead of time and then going over it in real time? I think that's the second best thing. You know, the ideal is going over it in real time. But I think one of the strengths of the framework is that you can, in fact, I saw it done and I was, I was terrified, but it worked out very well. Somebody had the form that just has, you know, the scaffold that's on my website. Not with the explanation, but just the three blank places that said student environment and task. And I was coming to do a consult with this group and they, they sent that format to all the people and they said, here, fill this in. And I was like, oh, Lord, what are we going to have? So what happened that was interesting is the first person I saw was one of the teachers. And she said, you know, I really didn't exactly know what to do with this, but I, you know, I have these kind of things I want to say about the student. And yeah, my classroom is sort of like this. And here are the places that I've worried about for this student. And I was like, great. Because that's exactly what we wanted her to do. So yes, if without a great deal of explanation, a little bit is probably better than none. Then it's, I think it's not a bad idea because especially if you don't have a lot of time and you have complex situations, having people come sort of already thinking about some of this and maybe, I'm not sure about this part, maybe putting what all these people have said in those columns together. The thing that worries me about that is that if I come into the meeting and I see somebody said something really different than I've said, I may have trouble getting to the we. That would be, but having them think about it in advance would be great. Yeah. Good. Excellent. Excellent. Okay. Great. Any other questions? The last two minutes that you have, Joy, with us. I have to say that it's been a great pleasure that I always enjoy my opportunities to chat with you and always enjoy your people who are here with you. It's just always fun for me. You let me think and not just, you know, give people I hope the, and I hope I don't give people the impression that I know the right answers. That it's all about it depends and how we think about what it depends upon. Lovely. Well said. Depends. That's right. Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So with that, I think we will wrap it up for tonight. I'm going to, Wendy and I, and Wendy's been on to and didn't even get a chance to say hello to everybody, but Wendy and I are going to send out a little email about some upcoming speakers and I think you'll be really pleased with all of that. And that for tonight, it's just been delightful joy as always. And thank you for sharing an hour with us and sharing your wonderful, I'm going to call it uncommon sense because it's better than common sense and helping us to better understand how to use the set framework to make the best decisions we can for our kids. So thank you. Thank you. And good. Welcome. Thanks. Thank you.