 constitution. Without taking much time, I would request Justice Roshan Dalvi to speak not only from her book, The Bird Eye View, but even otherwise we know her passion for taking issues of the general law perspective. Before we request Justice Roshan Dalvi for a moment, I will just share the book. Those who have missed it, though we will share the link in the YouTube link. This is Woman, Her Trials in the Tramps. This is the insights from which she will give her the further insights. And over to you Justice Roshan Dalvi. And thank you once again Justice S. Trivinder Bhatt for the insightful session. And as usual, it's always a pleasure reading his judgments. But to hear, they say that 2D vision is different and 3D vision is entirely different. And to hear him talking from straight from his heart, it's always a pleasure. Over to you Justice Roshan Dalvi. Even Justice Bhatt, thank you for this overall and exhaustive view of gender in our laws. It was, it was really so nice. I've taken down notes and we are all enriched. What I wanted to tell in this is not about the chapters relating to the historic aspect of gender laws and today's view of how differently we can see several of these aspects. This would be overlapping with Justice Bhatt's erudite lecture. I will take you to the social perspectives. Now what I would want to tell you is that in all societies, in all communities, at all times, there have been people who have not been able to grapple with this view of complete gender equality, treating men and women entirely equally. It just doesn't happen. And therefore, there are so many perspectives that we come across which amaze us. This has happened with me. And you find, oh, even here there is a gender perspective. The latest of these cases in the Employment Tribunal in the UK last week, the Employment Tribunal has held that bald men being called bald is sexual harassment. The employer called the employer who was going to be dismissed bald because he was bald. And the God helped that this is not an attribute of age. It is an attribute of gender because mostly men are bald. And just as you would not speak about, say, women's organs, you cannot speak about men's baldness. So you see, this is how wide it is. And every time I feel, oh, wow, even this is an aspect of gender. Now, we go back one century. In 1920s, there was this women's rights movement for voting rights in America. And Edgar Hoover, who was the president of the FBI and no less, said that these women are national threat, national security threat. 100 years afterwards, in 2020, when they celebrated the centenary of women's voting rights, they recalled this version. So you see how the American society has moved from 1920 to 2020. Even today, in American society, the gender equality is not completely equal. Times Review, which was held of all the nations, put the Scandinavian countries first, followed by Canada and certain Western European countries. And America comes tend. Why? Because America fell short for paternity leave. Various other countries give maternity as well as paternity leave. America does not. In America, there is what is called paternity bonus and maternity. It is a particular expression. I'll just tell you. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to waste time. So this paternity leave is not granted. And that is one of the attributes of gender equality. Sudha Murthy has said that when she attended some conference on gender in Norway, she found that women in Norway are far, far superior and have a lot of confidence which other women don't have. And she thought that India would be somewhere in the middle when this survey was taken. And she was astounded to find that India was just above Pakistan and below Saudi Arabia and China. You see, we are also surprised. We don't feel it like this. But what we don't realize is that you and me sitting here in this webinar are far above millions in our country. And the country is judged not by our status but by the status of those millions. And therefore, when we work, we have to continue to work on this subject no matter that you and I have equal rights, equal position, equal opportunities and everything it's not so everywhere. So I would like to tell you some very interesting aspects in various countries. Now in India, and I've written about that in both my books because I've got a chapter on gender even in my first book. Surprisingly, we found that there's I donations which are made in ICAMS. And there is cataract operations for women. There are ICAMS and they conduct hundreds of cataract operations. When they did some survey, they found that mostly women take advantage of these. And when they did more research after feeling very happy about it, they found why is it so? It is because a man who has to take care of his mother and father who has to pay for his mother and father or his grandmother and grandfather always chooses his father over his mother to do surgery, which is a paid surgery. So the father has already got his cataract removed, but the mother's cataract is not removed, the grandmother's cataract is not removed until the ICAM comes in that community, society, village, whatever, and then she is sent for a free cataract operation. And when these men were interviewed, they said, yes, my father is retired. He reads newspapers. He sees TV. He talks with his neighbors. He needs his eyes. Mother only cooks. She doesn't need her eyes. Let me give you another example of women who are children, the girl children. Now, we have got in our state schools, municipal schools or government schools, whatever you call that a girl's education is free up to standard 10 and the boy's education is free up to some standard four or whatever. That is because boys are always sent to school and girls are not. So therefore there is this gender balance, as they say, you must balance everything so as to give birth. All right. Now, why is this required? It is required because a girl child is dropped out of school compulsorily and a boy child continues in school. Why does that happen? That happens because she has to go and collect firewood. She has to cook in the house. She becomes a, she comes of puberty age and has to be protected sort of as they say. Girl child is not sent. When there was this nuclear deal, you know, when Manmohan Singh was the president of India and Bill Clinton was on the, Bush was on the other side and we had this new civilian nuclear treaty, people were talking about the environmental hazards. But people who were dealing with gender rights and specially gender rights of these kind of marginalized societies where women and girls are not sent to school or so, they said that if we have this nuclear energy and we can create electrification of various villages which are not yet electrified, girl children will not be sent to collect firewood. It will be an environmental hazard to collect firewood and it will be an environmental kind of, you know, protection if we don't fail so many dreams. The girls will not be molested in the forest when they go to collect fire and they would be taking on electricity and studying. So, you know, these things were not thought of. Let me give you another example. There was a decision, decision in America and the whole world and it took over in 2008. Why was this decision? They were they were researching and investigating. They found that most of the financial consultants were men. There were no women financial consultants and they realized that if the financial consultants were women, they would have wanted to invest in education, in insurance, in savings, etc. But the men didn't do that. And there are two lovely books written by Gillian Tate and Sara Winfield. Women of the street and that street is Wall Street and one is Full's goal, which finds out how foolish you are not to have diversity even in the corporate culture and now they have got in Germany corporate boards which require what we call a quota, but what they call of course on merit that there should be women selected on merit even on the board of all companies. So, this is how history progresses. A very striking example I would give and it might bring a smile to your face. The ACs in all offices are calibrated for the combustion and metabolism level of men. Therefore women always feel very cold in those kind of situations. The tables and chairs also in certain companies are actually sort of you know carpentry wise made for men and when a woman comes and sits they will have to be modified. So much so that the astronauts suits were tailored and measured for men and therefore when women astronauts went into space at one time the space program had to be postponed because their space suits had to be altered because you can't wear bigger suits in this non-gravity kind of atmosphere. It has to fit. These are those perspectives and when we come across you know these perspectives in society what we feel is that this is because no thought is given to what could be gender and when we are going to only study laws relating to gender and only cases relating to gender we are going to have only that focus approach. It is not going to be an open-ended approach and my purpose of writing this book is to see that in everyday life for everyday nuances we consider gender as one important factor. Now let us go to a situation of war. In the war they say in every war women and children disproportionately suffer. There are those ghettos and there are those bunkers which are meant for women children and old men and this was even in the Iraq war. What happened was that in Amirya that shelter was bombed and then they realized that it was not some kind of a terrorist activity. It was a basement shelter for protection of women children and old men and so many children died in that bombing which was done by America of course in Iraq. Now in Bosnia when there was this war there was one hour relaxation of curfew. In that one hour you have to do whatever that you have to do. The men could finish their work they could get groceries etc and come home but the women could not finish their work outside they have to go to the riverside to wash clothes they have to go and do so many things outside. So the women came together and said no one hour is not enough we want relaxation of curfew for two hours then they demanded three hours then they demanded four hours and ultimately there was one hour of war and four hours of relaxation of curfew. So this is what women can do and for peace they say no peace no women no peace. In countries like Africa when there are this armed conflicts between certain countries and there are those tribals two tribes fighting with one another the women realize what are we fighting for what is going to come to our children. So in one of these kind of conflicts there was a meeting in the presidential palace they went and locked up the palace from outside and they said until you come to a conclusion on peace we will not allow you to come out. And in another instance the women all came together and decided no sex until peace. So everyone decided we will not have sex with our husbands both these countries had peace. There are amazing ways in which women can contribute. Now we come to an all-round thing I have devoted a chapter called around the world and I have shown various instances from around the world A to Z. Let's begin with A in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan women had to go long distances to collect water from the wells. So some NGOs who are working and this was long before the Taliban take over now the NGOs who are working said we will construct some wells so they constructed some tube wells at various places. The women broke them up they wanted to go out because in that society where they were not allowed to go out this was their only outing. In India some of the NGOs wanted to help women to sort of you know have functional literacy. So these women who are working for it they were all women like you and me. They were very well placed in society. They had their time from four o'clock to six o'clock or so which could be free. They were not free in the morning time with their families etc or their careers or whatever and in the evening time they wanted their evenings free. But the women could not come for all those functional literacy courses because they said these are the constraints of women. Under these constraints they come up and stand tall with the men and that is the aspect which must be understood if you are going to give a good judgment if you are going to fight a good case because unless you understand that these perspectives will not come out. In Africa they were doing this kind of a vocational guidance training and they said that it would have been a course of one week but one week only if we had a full day course. Women could not come for that course that course got completed after six months and women got their share of empowerment. In Africa there are some communities where the land belongs to the man but the crops belong to the woman. So when a woman comes and marries in a man's house in a society she will never own the property. But because she owns the crops if the man comes home drunk she can tell the man this is my crop which I have put on the table you will not get to eat. This is what they have done actually. So these are the ways in which they have got empowerment. A very unique way in Kenya is that when a young girl becomes a single mother or becomes a widow and then becomes a single mother or whatever and is not capable of really taking on the world there are many other women who are older women they are from a higher class and they because they are older they are kind of semi-retired or whatever they join these women. It is an asexual union but it is a union where the young girl gets empowerment as well as protection by the old person and the old person gets the company of the young. It's a unique way of starting a family which is asexual. They're not talking about genders but yet two women come together like this in Kosovo when a man dies without a son the daughter can claim to be a son. So she applies to what we would call a panchayat but whatever is their village council and she says I will be the man of the family. She is allowed to be the man of the family she then starts owning property but she cannot only vote in the village council she can even appear in the village council and take part with not vote but she has to lead a chaste life she can thereafter not marry and not have children. So again you see you give one way some empowerment and I would say one way some kind of disability. In Pakistan there are many girls who are taken as Chinese brides and especially after this border road which has come up there is a kind of human trafficking between Pakistan and China. The girls are married off mainly from poor Christian families to the Chinese persons and then they find themselves either in the fields to work or actually traffic for sex. You see if you take other examples then in Japan the first paternity leave started in Japan it was called a kument. Japanese society is still under wraps for gender it's not a very open society. The emperor when he takes oath to be the king to be the emperor he his darbar does not have a woman the empress cannot come. Japan now shows that it wants to be gender equal and has made some laws. Last year in the medical college several women who applied and got getting good marks their marks were fudged such that then they will not become doctors. This is another unique way in which you just knew a side gender. In FBI as late as in the last decade they were of course showing that they would employ as their agents men as well as women but in the examination that had to take place the last examination was some very heavy physical exercise and one woman could not cope. The man failed her and then he was heard speaking to his colleagues I have washed out one female this happened in America some years ago it is in the crime files of FBI from where I have taken that. Now let's go to some of the triumphs of women. There is a whole team which has gone to Antarctica a woman's team only women and they have survived and come back. Then after one Indian British woman a Indian born British woman Chandi Kaur she has gone to the South Pole alone and they have made research and said that if you are going to take women as well as men but give them equal training in physical exercises they will be able to withstand any of these physical problems. Last week one police officer has gone to Mount Everest she's a lady she has met me when I went on a Himalayan trek not anywhere close to Mount Everest and she actually looked like a boy and she said that we have to undergo one month's training she was in the flight with me on 2nd of April they had to go in a window between 12 to 15th of May to reach Everest because they can go only on certain days when they find that the weather would be fine etc and they said we have to go one month before because to have this rigorous training it cost some 36 legs out of which of 18 legs go to the Nepalese government by way of our police officer woman has gone this year there was a crew an entirely Indian women crew which has sailed around the world six continents they have done their own work of even overhauling their own boats and repairing them so there is nothing that women cannot do during the COVID also some women's traits which were hitherto unknown came out there is one woman who climbs coconut trees why because she was an engineer her father used to climb coconut trees when enduring COVID she was laid off and did not have any work to do she saw that her father is climbing trees she said why should I not climb and she being an engineer prepared certain equipments good enough for climbing trees easily now she climbs trees and her father does not there is a woman from Orissa who is called the queen of transmission powers she goes up this transmission towers that we know of various phone companies we only know how to hold our phones we don't really care to see that she goes and repairs them when she started people were abusing her now they call her the queen of transmission towers she can repair any of those towers standing herself we know that in Haryana there is a paro system paro wins from far why is this system because they have such a skewed sex ratio because they didn't want any with females and they were there was so much of female fetus site that now they are taking brides from outside especially from Bihar Madhya Pradesh etc they are called paro they are left like that they are brought in as brides but not treated as wives they are treated as servants they live there there is still the veil system that is the goonga that they have now there is one lady Asha Khedar and she entered politics and she also had to pull her goonga when she started but the people in Haryana said that our leader should not bear bear a goonga and told her to remove her veil and she goes now in all places giving lectures as a politician in Madhya Pradesh there is a man who considers reverse dowry as her is custom and this custom is prevalent in some communities where they give some money to the father of the bride so it is not kanya dhan where the father sort of donates his daughter to the husband it is vice versa that the husband gives money to the father to take the bride and this man says I will take only 525 rupees from my father there are there are other sexes in Madhya Pradesh itself where they sell their girls specially for prostitution and some of our NGOs are working to get them out of that trafficking circle so you see these are the two communities in the same state different ones in Haryana we have told you some of the other stories I came to know that there is a story where for the birth of every girl they plant 11 trees the community gives one 10,000 rupees the parents give 11,000 rupees and this is used for the girls education so they have plants as well as girls now these are some of these perspectives that I have put in my book they are gender perspectives there are various gender perceptions these perceptions come up right from the child in the beginning when you say a boy must play with a ball and a girl must play with a doll you are making a mistake it is a gender perspective a girl will choose and the boy will choose but parents need not choose and certainly not of course the state as they chose in the case of one which girl which says but just told us about that you cannot go after 10 o'clock no it is for the girl herself to decide she doesn't want to go it's fine most of the girls won't want to go I wouldn't want to go why would I I want to rest but there may be a girl also my brother will pick me up there may be a club where the girl goes with who will provide transport she may be living very close to some place of work how can then the state or even the parents you know you cannot do this she must decide for her own life so you see these are the perspectives I've given there are two chapters on law and on the lateral thinking of law because there are so many laws gender laws which now require us to think laterally to think differently in feminist criminology there is one such chapter as I told you I've got a whole chapter on war zone and peace and there is another chapter on around the world aside from of course trials and trials I would not like to take you to all of those chapters but if you read my book it's available on amazon it's available it'll be available as an e-book by the end of the month e-book will be of course cheaper thank you if there is anything that you would want to know on these gender perspectives I would answer but I would like to end with one joke which I put in the book a father comes home and tells his son come we will go for a weekend it was a Friday evening and the son he tells the son we'll go to a hotel and the son says papa what is a hotel he's a four-year-old child and the papa says our hotel is a place where they will give us a lovely room they will make our beds they'll give us coffee we will go down and go to the swimming pool we'll have jacuzzi we will play carom we will have food that they will serve us coffee that they will serve us the boy says then why is mama coming along this boy aged four has seen his mama do all this and he finds that nothing great that he goes to the hotel his mama can need not be there if the hotel would be there now if this boy grows up and becomes a lawyer or a judge he's not going to be able to give us judgments as justice but then other judges have given and therefore we must from the beginning inculcate in our children the respect for gender I would say they say I would say beta parao beti vachawa automatic thank you oh nicely you have put it across as they say it's the only the perspective how one can think about it everything as they say what Shakespeare had said nothing is good or bad but your thinking makes it so so it's all the and one of the quote I'd read it out it said that once the mother is well read she also inculcates the entire family so they say that the empowerment is through woman and automatically the entire family and the entire society moves forward before we take to the question and answers you'll request justice Wimla a former judge from Idrar cycle we are too glad that she has joined with us and we all know that how knowledgeable she is and she has taken sessions with us to share her insights because she's already heading the law commission what suggestions are coming forth especially in the gender perspective as justice Roshan Dalvi and justice Esra Vindra Bhatt have already during the session enlightened us how the journey of the gender has gone and as rightly had the topic also comes across the book the tribes and trumps that is the best thing which can be coming forward or do you justice Wimla for your insights from today's session and what has helped changes thank you because after the erudite presentation by honorable justice Bhatt and elite presentation by justice Roshan Dalvi I don't think I can speak up but having requested me to speak I would just make a few bullet points regarding whatever is the scenario in Tamil Nadu especially in India very good presentations on gender justice gender perspectives we are really empowered we feel empowered and there are a few things when Gandhi ji said is he happy with India attaining independence he said I will accept India has achieved this independence only when women barring jewels were able to walk out during night now that we are not able to live inside the house that is the scenario in which we are moving regarding so far as gender is concerned many women feel that it is safe to be in the state that to be at home because the children their children are also getting affected and this is how we are placed now during this pandemic especially the women were in the forefront meaning that by that the nurses were in the forefront doing all kind of services leaving their children at home still the two problem for women was unwanted pregnancies by the husband to the wife even and the second thing is too many child marriages these are the two problems that we have encountered during this pandemic and when we go to family court and we see the mutual consent petitions and my sister had been the family court judge also and the most unjustified compromises the indirect compromise is one thing but the indirect compromise is something else where the women accept that they can retain the husband side can retain season of properties they need not give any share but in fact in the Indian law there is no equity or equality so far as the right to property for a married woman is concerned as far as my knowledge goes is only in India that the law provides for provides us unless otherwise rebutted all properties acquired during and after marriage is deemed to be the property of both the husband and wife and on divorce they are entitled to equal share of partition there's such kind of law is not available the Indian law only provides for division of property that is given at the time of marriage in the section 27 of the Hindu marriage act and no equity or equality in the law providing for property the most uh irritating or maybe say the most hurting scenario in India whenever the any injustice is happening to women women immediately they do not want to fight it out for example after the introduction of the box hope whenever there is an allegation that a particular girl child is put to harassment sexual harassment immediately the elders in the home choose to stop the women from going for education stop the girl from education and they cut off all the benefits instead of fighting the injustice that is happening to the girl child therefore we are afraid even to talk about the good law that is made available in the benefit of these gender you know in a case of recruitment in which I was also a recruitment board the after the final selection just before the announcement of the uh candidates where 60% of the women where the chosen where women immediately know the other two partners sitting along with me if you are telling me the sisters should should be reconsidered it is not advisable to give 60% to the women I was just wondering on marriage they were selected what are you talking about then they then they said not possible should not they were insisting then I said what could be the reason that is emanating from they said no no man if more women are recruited they will be asking for maternity leave they will go on leave the institution will suffer therefore we cannot give 60% to women even though the beneficial laws are there the benefit is not in not reaching women or only because women are still not getting sufficient awareness to fight it out it is time that this kind of book by justice ocean delby and this kind of erudite and scholarly speeches by justice butt and the promotion of this event by because and this kind of activities will promote awareness and they will give some kind of courage for women to fight it out thank you very much thank you ma'am we could never better sum up with that and the way you have actually spoken up like what we say that each one plant one so if each one of us takes an endeavor that we should there should be a gender sensitization I think we will have a society like what you said what Gandhi Gandhiji had rent off and the way the society has evolved we are moving towards the positive developments positive developments of law since we are running short of time only I will take one question which we normally speak what are the subordinate legislations relating to gender and how are they dealt with by the court since both of you have a vast experience I will ask justice Russian Dalvi and then we will ask this is Wimla being in the law commission what are your takes on this particular aspect this subordinate legislations because are very intriguing one I'll give you by way of examples of under the service rules if a man marries for the second time he is dismissed a man was dismissed and the dismissal was up now this is a very gender positive rule similarly there is a rule that if you have three children you cannot get government accommodation now not many people understand this rule actually they feel oh my what about it and there is one matter which goes on with where the other perspective is that the child says that I am not supposed to be blamed how can I help with that I'm the third child yes the child must get all benefits but not the parents and I would call it a gender positive rule because this would show that you are seeing that you can't you don't have to produce a litter a woman goes through all of this and just because you don't have a son you have the third child and the fourth child and the fifth child until you try try and try again is wrong and this kind of a rule which has been upheld by the supreme court is a very good judgment now there are certain things which can be abused also there was a rule that if women are litigants then women litigants will not pay court fees it was in Maharashtra so many men filed a suit as the power of attorney Holger of the wife and then said that we will take instructions of the wife but we will appear in the court and they did not pay court fees then thereafter the rule was amended and this is now only relating to maintenance for the women now this maintenance aspect has been very differently interpreted in Bombay High Court one judge held that when a woman applies for airship certificate to obtain the pension of the pension and other retiree benefits of her husband when she has become a widow he said there need be no court fee paid because this pension and the retiree benefits is meant for her maintenance when she becomes a widow drawing upon that another woman who was very well placed and who became a widow and who wanted to apply for a succession certificate for the demat account of her husband in which he owned shares of numerous companies through the tune of certain crores of duties was not allowed because it was held that this is not for her maintenance it is in addition to her maintenance she can maintain herself so this is how subordinate legislations help there is a rule that for any sale of any property or any lease by all two a woman there will be one percent less stamp duty now this is a very gender positive it is in favor of women and children it sort of will augur for the benefit of women and some women will be able to take up some properties which otherwise would not this is a good gender subordinate legislation there are others also which i have kept in my book i think i can stop your giving you examples now also to jessie wembley what are your takes on this i i ask what justice has spoken and there despite gender positive rules the administrative side also passes certain regulations and certain kind of instructions here in instructions by the our chief minister in terminal is women can travel without paying any fair for the bus we may wonder how it is relating to gender justice because he's supposing a woman comes to the court seeking maintenance she may not have sufficient money for travel if this kind of free travel is allowed then it is helpful for them to attend the court very frequently that as and when it is needed this kind of rules that is it is quite helpful for women but i have seen only people breaking rules so that women should not get anything even if there are rules article 15 especially with reference to article 15 three and the reservation in the horizontal reservation is an attempt by the government the constitutional makers and in the today's narrow also we see so much law coming forth 33 percent rules that is there 33 percent more than 33 percent women get elected as i said no the recently my husband got a brief where the a male person came and he said he wanted anticipatory bail he said why there what is the reason for anticipatory bail he said i want to preside i have to preside this is exactly the sentence i have to preside over this drama sabha that is meaning that it is a really sabha he has to participate the same ground was also put in the bail application and the court was not inclined to and it was discussed during the second time the man was saying the same ground and incidentally he said last time also my wife was finding it very difficult meaning thereby wife is the president and he says in the place of the wife he is ruling that is the meaning of it that is how these rules are more noted for briefs than for observance that is the trouble that is the problem but as they say that if the mindset improves everything changes yes yes i am reminded of that old daughter changes yielding place to new this reservation of 13 33 percent article 15 sub law 3 horizontal reservation for the purposes of ladies are the positive steps which the central government and the state government span India doing and we are all positive on this thought process while we leave for today that we will have a society which will assure for the betterment and tomorrow's friends the session would be challenges for lawyers with the emerging trends that is by regime and law show a former judge from Delhi High Court to stay connected with us at 6 p.m. and after the session i will connect with just as well now for her sessions because they are always sessions which are enriching and thank you just as roshan dalvi i can say that her trials and tramps is a book which i started reading it keeps you embossed throughout when you read it and i'm quite sure that all the participants not only on this and the youtube will buy this book it will be quite helpful to have a different perspective and just as when we are so enamored that you logged in so we always remember you for your sessions but joining in in the sessions shows your passion towards understanding and moving forward and needless to say we are also thankful to just as ester in the but who gave a session which was precise concise and incise it always been definite for him everyone stay safe stay blessed mashkar thank you thank you thank you