 What's up? What's up? What's up? I'm Brian man Sean and I'm Colry and we are back with episode number 22 of no labels necessary. And we got a very special episode for you guys today. We are live from Tulum, Mexico. We are on a retreat of sorts with a really dope team called since the 80s for those of y'all don't who don't know, JIT management. Earth Gang. A lot of dope acts and some pretty really dope people, very, very dope people actually. And today on today's episode, we're going to talk about some of the things that we've come across in conversations, just natural industry conversations that we have together. And give you the perspective from not only us, but I want to kind of channel some of the perspectives of some of the well established executives that we're here with in terms of breaking artists, etc. But before we get into that, don't forget our goal. We're trying to get this bad boy to a million subscribers to make sure you share it, right? Don't just watch it in your room and keep it to yourself. Share it so we can keep blowing it up, keep having dope experience like we did this week. And next time around, bring them on, right? People had a conversation. They like us, but they don't necessarily want to come on and just talk to anybody because it's not worth their time. We're going to give them a certain amount of views, right? So make sure you do that as well. And before we get into this last topic, I mean this first topic, Tuesdays and Thursdays, check us out. YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you want to listen. All right. Now, the very first subject, value, value, value, value. This is a conversation that's been messing artists up and they don't realize it, right? And I think it's a counterpoint to what has happened in the past. We know artists were being taken advantage of so much historically, right? They didn't know their value. They didn't know their value. Didn't have one inkling of their value. So we understand that there was needing to be, you know, the people needed to share that, hey, y'all have value. You have to be educated and learn, hey, you are worth something. This is how the business works and artists should get more of the pie. But in this, a lot of people have gotten lost in the sauce. So for example, artists are so obsessed with value, they don't understand how to judge money within a conversation. And I think a good way of starting is let's just break it down into three main points when it comes to judging your value. Okay. All right. The first point is you have to understand the difference between cost and value, right? Okay. All right. Okay. $50. All right. But what is the value of that thing? All right. Hopefully it's always more valuable than it costs. Yeah. Right. And also that value is relative. Right. Y'all just played Monopoly last night. My boy just killed it. Killed it. Killed it. My boy just killed it. Killed it. Well, what was one thing that happens in Monopoly, right? If you got all the colors except one, right? Worthless. Right. A damn near worthless. That thing is worth a lot. Highly valuable to you if I own that last thing to sell it to you. But if you don't have any colors and you own all the other blocks, what value is that thing to you? Yeah. Not so much, right? Yeah. So the cost and value, not just for you, but the others. And I think one thing that artists escape a lot is judging and understanding the value to the people that they're dealing with, right? Okay. And that's the hugest thing. You're so protective. Oh, man, I should be getting this amount of money or I should be getting this amount of percentage or whatever, whatever. But you understand that you aren't as valuable in that machine as you might think you are, right? And this doesn't go just to your creative or your music. It also goes to a job, right? Anything else? What were you about to say? It's like your team. Your team. Sometimes you think your infrastructure is like this and everybody's like, we got like six of y'all. You know what I'm saying? Exactly. Exactly. So that's one of the big things that I keep on encountering with different artists in different ways over the last probably like a year and a half at this point. And it's just culminating to me to realize there's a huge gap in understanding that because now so many people are so afraid of being taken advantage of. They actually get blind to the ultimate opportunity and the maximum value that comes out of that situation. So you can't think short term about it. I need to get this right now, but you haven't actually built your value yet. So like that's a huge thing. What's the business model that you're dealing with? Here's another way it happens. Artists will do business outside of music, about for their music. Let's say if I get a sink deal for a corporation, right? Not even not a movie movies. A lot of those run like five, 15k in many cases. Unless you're like a Paul McCartney song, right? And you're just going to smack them over the head to get whatever you get because they really like that song, right? If they approach Paul McCartney or Beyonce for a specific song, it's because they really want that song. Otherwise they do everything they can to not you choose those songs. They don't just mind to make a version of it as close to that level of 3k. Exactly. So if they approach them, it's a lot of value in it because it's not even just, oh, this is a really popular song and nostalgia related to it. There's a specific reason I want this song in it. It's something, whatever, right? So there's value in that. But again, people will go outside of the industry and not understand that there's a different standard of numbers, right? And then you come back in the industry and you don't get offered that same amount of money. You don't realize, yeah, that's nice that you got that money over here. That's not how it works over here, right? Like it's like going from America to, I don't know, Ethiopia and be expected to get paid the same. Yeah. Like as a standard for a job or go from America to Ethiopia to Qatar to to London, like everything is relative. Doctors don't get to get the pay the same in every market. They might get paid relative to everyone else in every market more. And I don't even, that's true, right? Because some people, I doubt in the countries, we can look this up later. Somebody can fact check us about this in the below. But I don't know, look at how much doctors make in countries where the government covers healthcare versus how much they make in like US, right? Okay. Okay. You know, I would assume that that might not even be as much. But the point is, again, your value changes in different markets. And you have to be aware of that and understand that has nothing to do with it. People devaluing you and you shouldn't let it blind you to the opportunity at hand, especially if it's standard within what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah. You said something too. I think is important to think about because it's something we talked about, right? Like value has to first be created. Right. So I think creators come into a naturally assuming that the thing is valuable. And something that I remember was having a conversation about here that really stuck with me was like, that there was like ever some shit is worthless. You know what I'm saying? It ain't worth nothing, right? Like it may be valuable to you for whatever reason. It's your art, you know what I'm saying? It's your thoughts or whatever. So yeah, that's value to you. But value has to first be created. And then once the value is created, it has to be proven, right? And that goes back to what you just said. That you prove it. How you prove it depends on who you're talking to. You know what I'm saying? Even to give like a personal example, I remember that was the camp. Remember the campaign we did where, you know, we're talking to the manager and the artist and they wanted to run an international strategy. And then we talked to the label and labels like, nah, fuck that. You know what I'm saying? Because the thing that the artist and the manager were finding value in didn't align with what the label was finding value in. He's like, hey, you building this just to give you all context. The artist wanted to run an international strategy to sell merch. Merch was like their big focus for the year. And the label was like, hey, that's nice for y'all, but we make our money off streams. You know what I'm saying? Streams are what's valuable to us. So we're not doing things that's moving the needle on the stream to where we get paid. We're not giving y'all a motherfucking dime. We're not putting no money into the strategy. And I know personally, that's when that starts to like click for me about like, oh shit. Like, there are different entities in the music industry that find value in different things. We get so used to speaking to like the value of the artist and what they care about. You forget that there are other players in the game. You know what I'm saying? They all have their own unique interests and what they see as the valuable asset in the situation. So the proven thing is always going to change depending on who you're talking to and who you're trying to do business with. And what might sound like a million dollar offer to you might only sound like a hundred dollar offer to me. Right? And so I think that just comes down to like also space, right? And know how to go into it. But brother, that's how you tweak the game, man. You said what? That's how you tweak the game. Because I think a lot of people are going to hear this and think that we're just trying to self correct them in a negative direction. And hey, and say you're not as worth as much, but it's multiple things in some situations. No, you are not worth as much in terms of a standard number that you might be thinking. However, in other situations, you might be worth more or it might help you repackage what you're offering to approach somebody differently. So you go back to the monopoly game, right? You're thinking about if you think about the deals that you did, look different from different people. Yeah. Right? Talk, just give some anecdotes from that game, because I think it relates directly to this conversation. Man, first off, it was amazing gameplay on my part. If I must say so myself. Amazing gameplay. Very big brain thinkers. E.J. was first to lose. E.J. was all here. I can't see E.J. He's over there, but you know, he was he was he was trashed out too. You know what I'm saying? He's the first victim. In that scenario, like I wasn't up that game. I had to start kind of surveying the landscape and saying, OK, this player has a piece I need. She won't give it up. This player has a piece I need. He won't give it up. He's been petty. This person next to me is willing to make a deal with me that if I play it right and I can crash out this player, all this shit can start to come together. Right. So now you're looking at, yo, what do you think is valuable to these people? Yeah, bro, what you want for their railroad? You paid $200 for it, but I'll give you a band in this property right now. Somebody might go like, damn, bro, you paying a band or it's $200 property. But I'm like, no, but I'm about to make a $5,000 playoff this shit. You know what I'm saying? For this shit connect the way I need to connect. I'm about to start crashing motherfuckers out. And you did. Right. But now I'm able to get the pieces from this person and say, OK, cool. He gave me the railroad. Could give you out context. I had like two railroad pieces already. This person across from me has one railroad, but she has another piece I really need. I'm like, I got three railroad pieces. She got one. I need that piece because if I get that piece and I crash out the person next to me like a bank roughing, that's just going to start my whole run. So I'm like, yo, I'm willing to give you these three railroad pieces and like 1500 or something for that one piece that you pay like $180. It's extremely valuable to her because she's nowhere near having four because you got all three. She only has one. Yeah. I really make you come up with like a positive situation. You don't see the value I see in that piece because you're not thinking about you. I'm about to crash out EJ who next to me. If I crash out EJ, this piece is going to make a lot more sense because EJ got the other piece I need. You know what I'm saying? So I'm looking at it like that, bro. Like how can I play this long-term game in a way where like one, I'm flying under radar or somebody catches on to what the fuck I'm trying to do. And then two, you know what I'm saying? I'm sitting on a tightrope at that point. I'm like, man, I just cashed out a band here. 1500 there, but I'm selling like $400. If this shit don't work the way I think it's going to work, bro. Again, I might have been the first one out. That shit hit. That shit hit, bro. Very big brand play. So like, I think that's the value. Two is like, you have to understand landscape one, right? Like I said, that goes back to who are you talking to, what do they care about? Shit, what's the market value for people like you? And you said something like going back to the, I don't want artists to walk away from this conversation feeling like you're on worthless. But I think it's important that everybody understands that you're probably starting at zero. That's the reality of the matter, bro. Like we started at zero, you know what I'm saying? EJ started at zero. You know what I'm saying? Like most people come into this unless you're like, you know, what is it like a nepotism baby? You know what I'm saying? Something like that. Or you had like a crazy job at internship. Most of us are starting at zero. So there's no shame in starting at zero. But I think there are a lot of artists who don't want to admit that. And they're like, no, I'm not zero, bro. I'm a million dollar act. It's like, no, you're not. You may feel like a million dollar act. You may be a million dollar act in the future. But right now where you're currently at, like I said, most of them started at zero. And then you'll have some of them. Maybe they're a $10,000 act, right? Maybe they're a hundred cat and maybe they're whatever. But I think it's important to be able to have like that level of self-evaluation to go like, okay. Like what is the value of the thing I'm trying to introduce into the marketplace? Like what are other people maybe getting or what maybe is kind of standing around this? Let me step back and look at myself from an eagle eye view. And so like, yo, do I match up to that? What I want is here. And if I look at myself objectively and realistically, I'm really here. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Not saying you won't ever get here. But realistically here, you need to make moves like you're here. Right? Like you might going back to the monopoly reference, you might have to make some moves that in the moment are crazy, right? Like the value of the thing you're trying to set up maybe overpriced for your situation. But if you play the cards, right? And it comes together like you feel like it will. Then that's five, 10, 20 X in the future. You know what I'm saying? And so that's the, that's the thing I don't want to get lost in people. Cause they're like, Oh, Cory caught me worthless. It's like, maybe, you know what I'm saying? But it's to help you. I want you to be better, bro. I'm not, I don't want a lot of arts about that, bro. Cause I see so many like clients and just ours homies get caught up in that. And that makes me think it is cold. I don't know who said it. Somebody might know and put in the comments. But I remember that being an artist, a bigger artist that was like, yo, ours get caught up in it. So caught up in the equity thing. I want to own a hundred percent and like, bro, a hundred percent of zero, zero. You know what I'm saying? If I gave you two percent of $10 million, that'd be more than your hundred percent of nothing. You know what I'm saying? But if you just look at pure equity, you would think the hundred percent thing is the better situation. And how many artists have we met? Have we talked to that put themselves in a situation that maybe didn't match what they feel like their value was going to be. But they saw it as a, as a, as a leaping path to get themselves to that value. Hey, maybe I do go sign this unfavorable deal that you know what I'm saying? This means something that I don't really want for like a year or two. But if I play it right, my social equity bills, right? I make more connections. I do get some money in my pocket. I'm getting out of the deal anyway. So now I can, you know, at that point, renegotiate something that I want. I hear about like major liberal arts and that's shit all the time, bro. Like, you know, take this shitty deal, build you up, renegotiate, you know what I'm saying? Get the equity. I think we hear so much of the horror stories of people who don't make it out of that situation. Right. Cause that's the popular narrative. Like X, Y, Z art is not a shitty deal. And he tank, he fell off, right? But there are a lot of those that I've heard of that have taken those things because and survived. And we just don't hear about that because it worked out for them. So the narrative isn't as strong to like know that they were in this situation or some of them it's like about a ton of narrative gets out. They're already so big or so bad with it. Like you don't care anymore. You see the power of playing like what they did. And many people want to seem so smart in the industry that they don't talk about those missteps that they made. Yeah, I give that order. There were times that they weren't getting as much as they could. Cause they want to look like a boss. Yeah. I get that too. Like I will get out of the arts. I don't think there are enough people in the industry who say that, bro. Like, hey, it's almost like an internship, bro. Like, you know, like the internship conversation we had, like as an employee, you know, if you did that same job, maybe you are worth 90K a year, but you have no experience. You bring no real value to the organization. Yeah, exactly. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, hey, you got to get in here, prove that amending one of you up. Now I see a value and hey, this is a 90K role, but I'm willing to give you 120K. Let me say something. I'm gonna end with that. Tell me about the artists because this is just about artists because there's so many people that we rock with and tell us that we listen to art artists, right? Managers, people, marketers, whatever. And value is. If you look at the way you have to think about your value in the music industry, especially is not just what you do because so many times the things that people are asking Yeah, that's a hard thing to learn and you think oh because I'm gonna do this and then it's gonna bring you this kind of money and that It's not that the thing that people value the most is trust Yeah, that's one thing that people extreme have extreme value for cuz yeah, I know I can get anybody to do it, but I Know you're gonna do it Whenever I needed to know that I exactly I want to see you win actually I know I like you and I want you to grow with me because I trust you and I like you and We built a relationship where I know you'll also be able to manage things as they grow Yeah, alright, so you have to be able to get in and improve that you can be a part of that system Oh, this is somebody that I trust and and and create whatever needs to be created or make the deal happen The needs to happen and oh, they're willing to enable to build their skill set and have a vision and I like them because a lot of these people are in positions where They don't have to work with somebody if they don't like them. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, so understand If your position is a commodity or not I know especially the more creative roles in the industry You think what you're doing is so unique or you know, you you really value your POV But especially if you're not the artist talking to your fans your POV Creatively often doesn't make as big of a financial bottom-line difference as you would think yeah Like we've had to make those decisions before it like you know, I don't want to say the artist name But now that was that one campaign we did once for way cheaper than we would have ever done the campaign But we will I have we made this play right? It's gonna open up so many doors and it did right We got to work with a really valuable artist that has a case study is probably brought us in way more money than that Arts in particular has brought us in they opened up hella relationships for us They led to other big artist clients, right? But it's like if I always think about that moment like if I step back and like now this is our price, bro Like you know, so I'm not gonna budge on this shit Like all those doors were shut. You know saying yeah, maybe not completely but no at least for the next couple months They kind of open up, right? So I always think about that And actually this makes me think of a story that was locked away deep in my brain, but pisses me off every time I think about it So this is when I was managing the artist and there was a point where We got reached out to by adidas about a sink placement They wanted to use one of his songs and like an adidas commercial It's gonna be like a nationwide commercial like you know saying this was like 2000 and had to be like 16 so they was talking about running like ads on and shit Which I didn't really know too much about then but it sounded like it was gonna be like a big campaign You know saying based on the way the lady was talking to me about it. And so in order for them to sink the song They had to get Permission from all through the creators. So the artist I was managing the producer and then the future artist I want to say They were gonna get paid maybe like 8k a piece or something like that Like maybe what's that? It's like 24 25,000 on the budget for the whole thing. I thought it was great My art style was great the producer thought it was great the feature artists hiss them back. It's like Not only 15k They're like, no, we're not gonna give you 15k, bro. We're adidas, but we're gonna get any artists that we fuck We're not the only artist that we fuck with Opportunity we're giving you money and opportunity and a look bro Like a look a national campaign and I just remember bro Like us fighting with the arts like bro Like don't do this You know because if we don't get his permission the whole deal fall off to all three parties have to agree for the decency It was too late. It was already and it was kind of moving well on like socials not socials But like DSP so they've been like a whole process But I always think back to that situation because they end up falling through like he wouldn't budge on that 15k thing They were like, all right fuck it we're gonna go to somebody else Meanwhile, how much money was that feature artist probably making off of their music, but probably fucking nothing He was on at a time he was on to an any label at the time, but he had just got signed So I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot a shot and say not much Maybe it probably made like a couple thousand maybe couple tens of thousand but I'll be Hard pressed to believe that he had made a 15k play at that point and I remember thinking like man, bro Like this adidas look could be crazy because I'm thinking of the marketing aspect But we can flip this shit turn to a marketing campaign, you know as a manager I'm like, I'm finally gonna make a little bit of money You know saying cuz he the artist making money and just to look over overall and I just remember the lady who reached out That's saying they were gonna spend like a lot of money on the ad campaign Like she said she if she had to get somewhere around like maybe 500k to a million Yeah, see God Yes, I'm saying bro. That's the and I know the artist wasn't thinking about that you got so You're not you're thinking about oh, I want 15k instead of how much and as an individual is a K for you So instead of getting a K. I want this 7k Not even thinking about they're gonna put 500k worth of visibility to your music. Yes, bro 500k worth of visibility sick Visibility hearing your song in people's ears let alone people who actually might should examine whatever whatever you own your song Right in that ownership that comes from it So like and that's my problem with these people who just think in this This oh, I need this value in this monetary especially at the front end Because I've been told that I'm valued. I don't want to be be ran over. Yeah Yeah, it really doesn't work like that and they have difficulty seeing the long-term vision also understand not understanding that Where you are at this moment You are not as valuable as you think you Moved on but I did because they found us on SoundCloud man. It's like, you know, like it's like 2016, bro How many lit you'm saying small five acts on SoundCloud over there in 2016 a lot A lot bro and something you could have did for free And still would have been worth it. I wouldn't do it for free But I remember having the RSA like bro like let's send us some other songs Maybe like she'll fuck with him. They're like, no, they really want this one particular song That she I remember she's been so cool about to brush She's like he really won't budge on it and they approach show. Yeah, they reached out. They reached out to y'all You didn't have to go. This wasn't even in your vision for potential Right you already did the work they didn't have to actually do any additional work literally just let us use this song Let's do some bro. Hey, can your pocket? Actually, that's a great point that I didn't even think about that time You're right, bro. We wouldn't think about that shit. So it wasn't like it was a true al You know saying I never thought it was like when That also makes me one or two if like that artist had the same conversation where did I have you know saying He might not even thought to ask her those questions. I asked her that I was a yo like this is a nationwide campaign Like how much money I spent on advertising. She's a while on the exact number But I would I'm assuming some of it's in like half a million million because typically what we spend on nationwide campaign sometimes more So I'm like, oh shit. I'm like, oh, we definitely got to go on this shit You know say like we need to do whatever we need to do may as head shit happen If I had money, I might have been willing to snipe him out make it happen Man a lot, bro. I had a lot of contract to some bro. Like we was broke at the time, bro So it was it was nothing we could do about it And I remember meeting that artist like manager like years later You ask him to he ever know about this situation. He's like, you know, they came up That hit ours directly ours never took it to the manager because I'm guessing because he didn't think it was valuable You know saying because I remember telling now. He's a bride now. He said bro I knew that shit was happening. I would not have let this shit happen I was like, we've been nice to know you all those years ago You know saying let it be nice to know you in 2016, bro. I want to go on a leash to say oh More often than artists getting screwed over artists screwed themselves over 100% like y'all I know it's nice to hear this marketing and propaganda artists always being done wrong or Like like and just from the financial side especially but When you are in it enough and you see how artists are moving How teams are moving it's more artists and their teams and decision-making Versus. Oh, just money. Yeah, a big scary entity And you get you get tricked off the block because you're you're afraid anybody once you start moving out of that fear Or the ego of value, right? That's what it is the fear of being screwed over and not knowing enough Or the ego of my value and thinking my value Is more than it actually is in this particular given situation Artists sell themselves out of a lot of good situations versus under having a big vision And that's what I try to constantly do, right? Like I have my big vision the thing I'm moving Towards yes, some things might be a new opportunity But If something comes my way that I wasn't even planning If I can get some value from it nice But I'm not gonna like Hit somebody over the head. This is not even my main business You know what I mean? And now I'm trying to dominate and own 100% of some shit or or like come off of a 100k When I wasn't even planning on this 100k, you know what I mean? Like of course There are situations where it makes more sense and it's related because you're setting your value instead of its own There's situations where it makes sense to still make sure that you might be extracting a certain amount of value But the point is have your plan because it's easier when you have your plan and know what you're going to move In towards to either turn down shit in general that's not towards your plan Or not ruin your relationship and be able to move long term in those spaces that Are outside of your your direct, um You know plan of operation that you're looking to succeed on. Yeah, so yeah I'll say this let's cut let's cut that because we can go in so many ways Next time we had a value conversation. I want to have it with some people on so we can just ask questions and let them Break things down from their own experiences because we need we we actually need to make that a constant conversation that we ask Do you have a story when someone didn't know their value whether it was you or anybody else? That's a great question. It'll be surprising brother. Like the stories you'll hear from that shit because Tell you man people kill themselves shoot themselves in the foot every single day with their decision making but Next subject how to break an artist. All right, bro. I've been waiting for this one, bro Like I've been waiting for this one, bro So we got to get context to this topic, right? All right, go ahead Mike shun said we on this retreat We since the 80s and they had us do a really interesting team exercise last night And the exercise was they had everyone out here go around the table and write down in Let's say was like 10 steps or less I think I don't think it was a limit on the stealths, but basically how many however many steps How would you break a artist? Like if you was a you know Manager label personally has vested interest in the artist and you had your game plan on how you gonna take that person from You know, whatever situation you see in your head to big star or a pop and act basically the breakthrough point How would you do it? and Yeah, bro, I feel like we need to share what we put because we have really different answers Some of them were alone, but I feel like the way we went about it was was pretty different Which I thought was interesting I think we can run through mine and yours quick and then get to the bigger conversation that came from it Because it's it's more of the lesson that comes from this than anything So my number one was music when we focus on the music make sure that the music is right Um, because the way I'm looking at it I know from all the campaigns we ran Look, nothing works like good-ass music. Yeah, like this bad music you really pushing uphill So we want to make sure that That it's the artist that has some really solid music I'm not talking about full-blown development that in our production production Which is a great thing that I could have thought about that, but I don't In my personal life, I don't have that investment to just throw into an artist or the infrastructure set up So I'm just like I'm picking an artist. I'm gonna pick an artist that has really dope music That's I know that's starting. Okay. Okay So we're just gonna step out there. Do you do your number one? Yeah So my first step was just getting the artist to believe it's possible And so what I was coming from that is a mentality thing, right? I think before any of the other Steps can really be enacted. Like you gotta get that motherfucker to believe You know what I'm saying show them some some tune core statements show them some results of campaigns, right? Give them something to make them go like, oh, this is possible because I think especially You know in my head, I was thinking of a complete like ground zero rapper Like like a motherfucker. I heard like rapping in the hallway. I was like, oh, you follow You should make music and get popping, right? See you almost got to sell them On the vision on the dream. Yeah exactly and that's the difference man. I don't I don't like working people who You got to have it for yourself because I can't want that shit more than you so I'm I'm immediately thinking You have to want it big you see it big. I can sell so long the vision along the way But it's gonna feel like work at some point, but I But even with somebody that already sees it I like that For reaffirming the possibility and just showing them how real it is like getting them in environments like this Like little stuff, you know what I mean? Like you said tune court statements, whatever it is Just so they can know and um that their dream can be real Yeah, because it changes every level like I'm sure there's an R side there making 100 k a year that if somebody come along and show them here You can make 10 million might completely change where they move even though they're doing well They're probably would change what they're doing. So yeah, that's me. It's like first step Let them taste what it looked like gotta make them believe it's possible So my number two which I kind of pushed to they are the argument became I'm I made two Steps in one, but I said get your vision, right? Have clarity on your brand and what you want to do in the marketplace, right? Because to me I've encountered so many artists that have good music That get confused once they start putting music out there They want to release this song and the next thing you know They want to release on a totally different style or they don't like their fans And they're making music that won't connect with the people that they want to connect with But it's popping remember we got one artist That he got popping With people that he didn't want to It was going crazy for people that he didn't like and want to be his fans He was actually kind of like creeped out by him, right? But it was for that fan base. It was a it was a really good big thing So like you have to understand like That clarity of what you want and does what you have and the approach that you're going to take Actually connect with those people, right? And then I my my pairing that was illegal apparently was See the void in the marketplace because you can have something but presented in multiple ways, right? So like Justin Bieber was Like there was a missing Place of like a young kid at the time he came in like this young boy pop star Right. So there was a void in the marketplace. Yeah, if there was another guy who already existed They might have approached it a little bit different Like he might have had to go a little bit left of that guy who already existed whatever that might have looked like So understanding. Oh, there's a complete void of this now Oh, we can go straight for these little girls hearts, right make him the heart. There's nobody to move on this And we need to move real fast and make sure we dominate this before as anybody else's chance for another five years, right? So Like that's what I was thinking. Yeah, what's that? I should have had that vision. That's just not just be right. Oh, it was it was a bit of a war between us And just Timberlake us you end up getting them. Um, you know, you know, it's him and school to brawn from the get go Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. All right. So my number two is just make the artist look presentable across the board And so what I was thinking about with this was like visual branding. Let's make sure the dsp's look Nice and professional. Let's make sure the socials look professional I don't think at this stage unless they're looking for the artist to have like a look I think I would be looking for them to like Actually, yes, I would I'll be looking to have a look at least a look that we get we feel like we could translate well visually Whether that be, you know content hard access and things like that But yeah, bro, the second step for me is we got to make you look like somebody people want to listen to Yeah, yeah, I could see that. All right. So I think for the lads ones We should just run through them so people can see here our vision then we can talk about the different visions Okay, right. So my next step was content development meaning. Hey, we're gonna Help you understand how to create content That people actually are going to consume and enjoy But it has to reflect your brand and give you that muscle because I look at content development today as A similar thing to music development, right? Like that has to be a muscle and I'm not saying to have you posting three five times a week Seven times a week is really just to know how to do it and communicate your brand in an experiential way online Not the post tick tock and put my music behind stuff, right? It's a completely different thing Once you know how to do that now we're going to push your music Okay, because you know how to create the music you have the vision and you also know how to present any context So let's push your music using all those elements and hopefully start to find the first hit Then we're going to double back and do some shows because now you have some music out there to do shows with And help you build that muscle of doing a show because I'm trying to build a superstar, right? So that means you need to you know, I mean you don't need to today technically actually to have shows But if the ones that last we already know the cream of the top Cream of the crop a statement that was made by somebody very well established here Who's done that thing made a lot of money in this with artists The moment you can be identified as an entertainer your your price goes up Yeah, right the difference between artists and entertainers right Beyonce Bruno Mars the like different price, right So working on that side of the muscle because we're thinking long term It's not just oh, we're trying to cap off of the music and make some money That's nice, but it's more so for the long term and then we're going to get some pr So we can get you everywhere be omnipresent, you know, you think like the ice spice type stuff Give it about eight weeks of going hard Like you're popping up being in a video collab with an influencer Who's popping at the time in your space and then we're also doing some pr campaigns around Um That influencer but again mostly not that not that influencer the artist but more from a social media standpoint So just popping up where people get the narratives whatever the narratives make sense for that artist And then we're gonna start working up on a follow-up song because in my mind All right, we built you the the skill sets. We got you popping then we and then we develop your skills That's a little bit further um through shows And now we made you omnipresent All right, so Okay, got the skills Now you put yourself into the marketplace and launch and now we start dominating to break the artist Not just the music. That's what the pr stuff or the social media pr stuff got you. Okay And then we follow up And assume that we had one song that was strong And maybe you might have had a couple that had a nice little level of visibility But now we're looking to find a second song to really touch it in your cement. Yeah To cement you as like you're a legit artist. Yeah, all right And not just somebody with one song that we happen to know a lot about because you did the pr stuff We still need to connect with music. We want to like keep going the artist route. That's how I saw it. Okay The solid solid breakdown man solid breakdown. Well, let me look at my next step Oh, so my next step from there was release music, right? So like I said in my head This artist is complete ground zero. So this is what I'm thinking of right So just get them to start putting music out there and really start building a catalog and you know having Something for the fans that we ideally build to experience After that develop a content strategy because I'm all about the free How can we get shit shaken with little to no money involved and kind of like what you said man? It's going to teach them a lot about Communicating their vision to their audience Um in a way that is not going anywhere. So, you know, I do think that's a very valuable skill set Um, my next step was find the song, right? So That kind of makes me think about lightning rod concept. We have an agency I once heard another marketer say April only take one song to get in the game and I've I've lived and died by the ever since I heard that quote Yeah, that should just change my life when I heard that shit So my next step would be like, yo, let's figure out like what these song is ideally this will come from Um the content strategy and that's kind of watching how people move on that stuff You know, but it might be some gut feeling maybe we take it to people we trust But either way to go be to find like these on the song We about to try to push the single Uh after that man build a paid marketing funnel Right. So this is the ads. This is the influencer strategy. This is the pr campaign This is us building our fan building funnel Using things that we can control That's how I look at You said what like what like ads like influencers like the pr stuff that we're like we can't really be gate keep out of Getting it because I'm looking at this too. Oh when you're All right last night. I was thinking about Like a paid marketing funnel like ham selling merch because I'm going to get paid off of merch. It's a marketing funnel You were talking about things that we can pay for. Yeah, so paid mark. Okay. I got yeah, like paid marketing funnel Yeah, so things that help grow the artist fan base that we can control that we can't be gate keep out of Advertising influencers. Got it. Um things like that, right? Whatever that looks like based on resources and budget at the time Okay Set next that would be and this one might be kind of and then I look back on it But I put get the artist to 100k streams with no playlist. No playlisting. I'm not including playlisting in my paid marketing funnel because I I want to have a very clear assessment of the artist fan base and who we're talking to I don't want nothing muddying up my data Maybe down the line, but not not at this point and I'm looking at that 100k streams As building proof of concept because it's gonna it's gonna tie into my my next step But I believe in like building proof of concept of a artist like let me Because every artist thing they live and they can make it everybody says it about the artist they work with Yeah, we need proof to believe that right? Um, but like I said, my next step is now I'm gonna start looking for industry partnerships. So dsp's Uh platforms tiktok instagram youtube things like that other artists, right? Trying to figure out like who their peers are and get them, you know, I'm saying associated with those people and next to those people Maybe execs, you know what I'm saying? I feel about it. I'm not the the most like exec Chasi type of guy, you know what I'm saying? But maybe maybe for the artist, you know what I'm saying? If I feel like there's some value there, but at this point I've already built My funnel to get the artist music fans and get them awareness in like the music space Now I'm trying to get them industry awareness Right and get them in front of people and things that can help them just why industry Why fan awareness before industry awareness for you proof of concepts, dude? I think a lot of So the conversation we had one of them last night changed my mind a little bit on this But I think they're different breed of people since ages of different people because Barry was like You know what I'm saying? He don't always feel like he needs to see numbers to believe in somebody Which I think is noble and even cool to hear because I haven't really heard that before this goes into the latter conversation though Right. This is one self-belief in that as you know as an individual I can make some shape But that also becomes from the the position Yeah, too All right, you've done a certain amount of things and you have a certain amount of leverage knowledge and resources That you can see something And move on a lot quicker and build afterward where someone at the beginning you might need a lot more proof of concept To know that this thing is going to happen It's like the analysts who watch NBA games and they're so focused on stats Why because they don't know what that shit really looks like because they haven't really moved do the motions They don't have the instinct for it and it but and what they try to discount is this instinct isn't just Some wool shit my instinct got built through legitimate experience and actually seeing it from the ground level So It might seem like oh, I'm just making it and I'm not being scientific But I've already gotten evidence on evidence on evidence and I've seen the things that the numbers can't reveal Which allows people I think to move like that. That's what I thought about because the other Buddy number uh number two. Yeah, you know Zeke was like Oh, I'm locking them down on them papers. Yeah like to make sure again understanding that experience. Yeah When I When the artist takes off how many times do artists blow up and then leave the manager who's done all the work? Yeah, right Which again going back to artist decision-making and somewhere where just artists all the way Always assuming they're the only ones getting screwed over. Yeah. I've no many times have no idea how many times managers And people dealing with artists have gotten screwed over by the artist But people just don't fuck with the people. They don't know as much the people behind the scenes So it doesn't become a big story. Yeah, like you're never going to have an interesting campaign. Oh, beyond say got screwed over Oh, that's a big story. Kanye people are interested in that. It's not going to be news that this manager from Milwaukee got screwed over that you don't know but by your favorite artists You don't even want to believe that because you love the artist too much. Yeah, right? So artists That shit do fucking happen. Oh more more often than you would love to acknowledge And that's why I say like I I know those type of people exist because I even think about like sam sam is like that, you know what I'm saying Um, we want a good friend of mine. He's like that But I think once you start getting to DSP. He's just just a good guy in Yeah, like if he believes in something like If he believes in something Even though I don't have the numbers like he'll stand behind and try to help him out Because I've seen him do it before. Um with touch right with Todd's Keaton He's helping him build from ground zero. Well, all right before you get to your next thing I think another in hearing him in that same example. I think another thing that goes with that is Curse the belief in that artist And also having a vision for what you want to build and be a part of yeah as well So which when we talk about recruiting team members early on If y'all are part of the same vision, they have a similar vision to you and what you can accomplish That's all you can ask for as an artist All right, you can't expect them to give you everything or have all the resources, but they have a similar vision Yeah, and that's how I say like Those people yes, bro, but for what I've seen with the DSPs Maybe the DSP sometimes but the social platforms they don't usually move like that. They want to see some numbers They want proof of concept, right? Hey before I give you this tick tock partnership I want to see a quarter million crates. Yeah, right. So that's that's to me why the proof of concept building is so Valuable because I do think that if you push the arts in the right way you will come across those people who don't care But I'm thinking about the ones that do care. And I'm saying it's gonna be a lot of them You know what I'm saying? We've been honest. So like that that's what made that my next step Well, so looking for industry partnerships Oh next that would be trying to figure out how to monetize the arts So figuring out your how can we get some money back in this to me ties into the proof of concept conversation? Um, because I do think that More doors open for you when you can prove that the artist is making money, right? It's kind of like that last conversation we had last night where That was saying that if you can build a profitable artist like you you live, you know I'm saying because everyone Doesn't build a profitable art very few people build a profitable art. It looks like there's a lot because we see All the big dogs But if you think about how many artists release music that are not making money The fact that you get someone making money is seen as a very valuable thing in the music industry Even if it's not like a crazy amount then you got your hours making 10k a month. Damn. Let's follow You know, I know 150,000 fuck of that wish that was making 100,000 a month out that right so Figure out how to get the arts making money And then my last step was start looking for funding because now we got that pipeline We have the we have the music fans. We have the industry awareness. Um You know, we built proof of concept. We started monetizing the artist Now we just need funding to like gasses and I really break them through So that's why that to me is my last step because I wouldn't want to approach an investor personally Without the other steps in place because it's about leverage. I want to move without leverage See, so I think the big takeaway from all of it because there were so many other perspectives and people Who approached their rollouts different than us It came down to a couple things one the way you're going to go about it Is based on the resources that you have in hand and your main primary skill sets and experience, right? So there's that to Ej Went crazy on a very specific artist Yeah, that he imagined Yeah, basically I speed that's pretty much who he built, right? It was a gamer Right streamer culture artist that he was able to build everything around So the specificity is going to change how you approach these artists Most of us gave some general tenets and more framework approach of how we would approach it But when you have a specific artist you're working with it's actually going to change how you do it All right, which leads me to the ultimate point That um zeke mentioned I thought both of them mentioned, right? It was like hey if we knew exactly what to do The amount of money they have be crazy. We do it every time and they've done it All right, he said we'll do it every time I would do it every time right But you don't know exactly what to do for every single artist because every single artist is different Where they are they're fan base. There's new things to learn But it's more about taking those frameworks And moving on them learning and then learning how to navigate and feel your way through it Which is the instinctual part that can't be accounted for that's why eight labels Like to buy momentum that's already established because they can skip the learning phase of Like who these artists is who their fan base is how do I learn to artists and how they move What song is going to pop like that's a that's a new thing to learn and training just like when you hire new employees, right? It's extremely expensive. So that's That was like the big value in the conversation Like just remembering even for these people who have helped break multiple artists have been a part of like, you know Not just, you know, we talk about the earth gang and Engie but been being a part of wiz's situation Mike dimes. That's a new act that's that's starting to push through Helping out with yeah, who else was an older one around the Wiz Khalifa stuff. I forgot Oh, Mac Miller Mac Miller, right? These people have been a part of multiple situations and they're still not like Oh, there's just one step that I can run every single artist through right or this one set of steps I can run every single artist through and break an artist guaranteed every time That just is what it is. So never forget that now with that being said But we have a couple other topics that we want to go through a little bit more quickly Because we got to get back to enjoying our experience here into loon. This is our last day but The team building activity. Do you think we should go do that like based on the time or we can skip to Tp. No, I thought we could see I feel like that was that was a team building activity I feel like we could say something really We can get deeper into that another time All right, so we'll get into Tyler Perry. You know, it's really really short, but I think it's really powerful so some of the individuals individuals here at I'm time working with Tyler Perry and the biggest thing that he talked about was just his output never seeing anything move like that saying This man was flipping money Like by 30x again and again and again To the point that he no longer had to work off his money because then he established his business credit And you're able to move off of loans So you never even use your money because you get a loan and you know guarantee based on your system You're going to be able to flip and make that money back 30x over Right, so now you can move even faster because you don't even have to use your own money Right, that's the beauty of it and building that momentum and having a system Right, so artists if you can have your own system as you build your infrastructure It allows you to move so fast over time It gets faster and faster It starts off slower because you got to worry about all these other smaller details But once the infrastructure is in play and then the money's proven and things are going You can take advantage of a lot of additional things, right? So is that system that he had And then also just a creative output was ridiculous like What do you say he said sometimes they'll be shooting like five six movies and tv shows in like a week Right, right. So you have A lot of just movies. I've heard take three months six months to shoot He's going to shoot a whole season of a show or a movie in like seven days at times and They were like He might shoot multiple movies and shows over three months Using the same people which made me think about I was like, oh man That's why he has the same people and so many of the shows and movies and stuff like that Because hey, they're already here. I got these people here. I'm gonna put you in this movie This show this show this show this show all while you're here So I don't got to fly you out multiple times and we could just knock things out nine to five this whole Do a shoot nine to nine this thing While you're here and then are y'all go y'all separate ways So just a little efficiency of everything was great. I know on an artistic side people You know don't like to hear about efficiency logistics things that sound more scientific, but You know to be able to have that creative output Even if you're just relating it to hey, I want to have my own content that I put out at a higher clip You know, um on tiktok or something Oh, I'm gonna get my setup that makes sense. I create some things I batch it because that's all that was right All right, or I have a setup that I know I'm going to use every single time Like those types of things just getting creative with how you move because there's a level of creativity In business and creating efficiency. I don't think people give credit for like people aren't doing that or weren't really doing that like that The fact that he thought of that was a creative thing Hey, shoot my minds. Well, just have all these people here keep them there and shack them up and then do five tv shows Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's five brain it makes me think it is one client. We had two Uh star ringo. I remember star ringo. Yeah, like I remember having a conversation with him once about his music video output um And you tell me that's how he do like he'll go to I want to put out where he lives, but he will go somewhere where he lives Like walk around he might scout out like four or five locations like within like, you know, a couple minutes You know what I'm saying walking of each other and just knock out like multiple videos in the area That was a recipe. I mean, he told me that shot. That's genius. He's like, yeah, bro He's like, I can just like, you know, it might take me four or five hours on his day But then it's given me months worth of content You know what I'm saying that I can continue working with and building off of and you know time to something on the front end Probably saves a lot of time on the back end. You know what I'm saying and so I was like, I thought that she was genius, bro And I don't think Tyler Perry gets enough respect is like that type of individual. You know what I'm saying Yeah, like not at all, bro. And like so We literally watched a man go from chitlin circuit I was watching his plays with my grandma and my mom when I was little to literally opening a studio Right a massive studio in Atlanta billionaire Like all this like you don't do that without that genius owning his stuff Yeah, right like and I think people will talk about because this is one thing I want to talk about Like comes to Tyler people talk about how cheap Tyler might be or like how Low budget some of the things are like the wigs or whatever. Maybe there's room for improvement there But I think though his approach comes from somebody who actually owns this shit. Yeah, right and moves different It's different when you build the bag up yourself and I go to the studio and no No slight to anybody who does that because that's how most other people are actually moving Like very very few people and we love that you did what you did how you did it 100 percent Some people will navigate the industry and you got to deal with HBO as your first way or showtime or one of these companies But the It's different in how you Think about the money that's being put out when you're putting it out yourself Yeah when show shit, right It's your shit and you're not just going to have somebody disappointed that you didn't make the money back You literally don't have no more money. You're gonna feel that you're gonna feel it. You're gonna fail Right, you're gonna owe these people right. I've put on a show before and still had to pay niggas. Yeah Even though the money didn't like the show didn't profit. Yeah, like so It's a different type of motion and it forces you to get creative But being independent like that and having that ownership It requires more and thinking more outside the box and paying more attention to the business Well, I don't which I don't think a lot of artists are ready for they don't know that that's what it comes with And they just like the romanticism of independent But they don't want to put in the work in that way People in general just like entrepreneurship being sold today people push the romanticism of entrepreneurship Not understanding the level of work that goes into it because of the level of accountability and responsibility you have What it's all said and done It's all you it's all you all your life for real depends on it where you can work a bad job And you might you might not even get paid as much as you want to but if that doesn't work out You might go get another one or whatever or at least you don't have to owe 50-11 people and pay them out Be bankrupt and all those other things. So, um You know Like the top of everything every time I hear things like that is inspirational to me Um to figure out like how can we bring that into our operation? And now we're at a point of leverage where I think our next phase we can figure out how to move stuff like that um like Move and build things and do create faster because to me that's when it gets even more and more fun Right as we can create faster put out be more creative, but then actually execute on it. Yeah It's so much better than oh, it's a great idea. I'm gonna do this one day But do you I do all these other things and then shoot by the time you get there You forgot about that idea or you got a hundred other ideas and you still gotta pick and still not do a lot of stuff Right. Yeah, so it's cool to like be working ourselves to move into that space, but you know I hope artists understand that If you keep on putting in their work or whoever's building that the company that you're building It gets more and more fun as you go Once you build up that initial foundation. Yeah, a hundred percent and that's the part that Everybody don't make it to A lot of people don't make it to see how fun it is Fun and stressful because we've had to argument for it about like how stressful it can be Right, right, but it is fun. You know what I'm saying like and I like only and I get tallypair because I'm cheap So you know what I'm saying as a fellow I guess cheap Business on it, bro I aspire to have that level of frugality with that level of a return That level of frugality with that level return and that level Of money because he still has that with that level of money. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah Well, shout out tallypair, right? Hey, shout out to tallypair, man And all y'all northern's I always gotta say this whenever I get a chance, bro All y'all folks that was shitting on him, man Fuck y'all Like because again that reflects People in my real life. Like I'm I'm from the south. I got southern family and y'all acting like these people don't exist So we should discount the other black characters. We need the spectrum. Yeah, we need the spectrum And everybody else gets to show their spectrum I don't even say everybody else, but we know that There are people who get to show their spectrum, right? Yeah, we all we need to do is be able to show our spectrum So that's it. I'ma leave it at that in this conversation. I'm brad man. Sean. I'm kory This is no labels necessary and we out peace