 And like, let's just say we could sustain torturing and killing animals en masse. Would that make it morally justifiable? Massive amounts. They leave all of the stuff in the ocean as well. And they dump them back. What's this, mate? Come and face me, fish boy. Yeah. Come over here. Do you want to help you talk about it instead of debating with you about it? Okay, well, we don't have to have it, but I can explain to you my position. You can stand there if you want. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, come and sit down, man. Come and sit down. What do you mean by this? Sure thing. Because you might be thinking, well, just eating fish is just eating fish. It's not, I'm not being cruel to the animal. That's probably what you're thinking, eh? Oh, there's obviously a factor of cruelty because you've killed an animal. Yeah. So I just see it more as it's a cycle of life. Not a circle of life or a cycle? Not a circle. It's just, it's life. It's life? We need sustenance and there's alternatives. Vegan food, vegan options. That's right. To choose a path. Yeah. Right? There's other alternatives. Of course. I don't know if it's sustainable at this stage for everyone to turn vegan overnight. Oh, really? Do you think killing animals is sustainable? Well, it's sustaining at the moment. Isn't it? Or is it not? I don't know. Let's talk about, we can talk about sustainability, but it's a bit different topic to what I'm talking about, which is like the animal's rights, you know what I mean? But like, let's just say we're breeding, we're killing actually 74 billion land animals. 2.7 trillion marine animals, okay? They're dragging them out of the ocean 2.7 trillion every year. The documentary the other week. Seaspiracy? Seaspiracy, yeah. What do you think of that? Yeah, it's obviously horrific. Did that look sustainable? Based on what they said, no, it doesn't seem sustainable. And like, let's just say we could sustain torturing and killing animals en masse. And it was sustainable. Would that make it morally justifiable? It depends what your moral compass is, you know? I mean an eternal holocaust of torturing animals so we can have a burger. I like the descriptive words. I don't see it as that personally. End of the day you're taking a life, but I think how have we gotten to where we are? You know, how have we become what we are today from, you know, whatever the evolution was? Yeah. Well, we used to, you know, like civilizations invaded other civilizations and murdered and raped and pillaged. And that's how we got here, yeah? That's our DNA. That's how we got here, though, yeah? Yeah, that's the timeline. And we've also killed animals to get here, yeah? But like, now we have technology. We have alternatives, okay? We don't need to kill each other or kill animals. I mean our self-defense situation is different, I get it. But animals are innocent. We don't need to eat them to survive. But we are torturing and murdering them en masse for a trivial, you know, five minute, ten minute meal, you know, when we can obviously eat plants and be healthy. I think one of the big holdbacks from people is that it's actually probably not that easy to live a vegan lifestyle. Like a practical issue, I mean? There's practical issues involved. It's getting more simple, but I think it's still very impractical. Yeah. And, you know, I've heard things about the vitamin B12 deficiencies. I don't know that, like, it's not in the vegan diet, or you have to supplement it. Okay, yeah, B12? Is that true? Yeah, well, I would recommend everyone supplement vitamin B12. It's water soluble, so you can just, they actually add it to the food. Is it not more necessary for people on a vegan or a plant-based diet to supplement B12 into their diet? Well, do the people who consume meat products get a level of B12 through food? Well, they give the animals that people eat B12 supplements. So the chickens in... Would the animal not get that through their natural... No, no, no. Well, what do you mean? Were you eating animals from the wild? Well, that's ideally if you can't be... What do you eat? Chickens? I eat chickens. I eat all meat, yeah, always. Okay, so you eat pigs and chickens? They're factory farms, predominantly? Predominantly, yes, yeah. The large, vast majority of farms indoors? Like, steak and stuff. So where would the pig get B12 indoors? Fish. I don't know if fish has B12 in it or not. Yeah, certain fishes do have a B12, but... Yeah. Like, a pig and a chicken, they'll add it to their feed, basically. A supplement. A pig and chicken is like two meat animals. Obviously, chickens, they're probably highly consumed, but you've got all of the other animals out there, from fish, you know, you could eat kangaroo, you could eat cows. You could also have a supplement. But what I'm getting at is we've gotten here thousands or tens of thousands of years. By murdering animals, yeah. Without needing to consume supplements. It doesn't matter. Like, we've also gotten thousands of years without having hospitals and dentists, but you still use them because they're good for society. Yeah, I believe... Technology and... You look at how long we would live. 200 years ago, maybe the average male... I don't know the numbers. Maybe it was, like, 60 years old or 50 years old. No, no, no. Less, like 40. 40, and then now we're living substantially longer. So just because it's a supplement, it doesn't mean that it's bad. I personally take B12. Yeah, yeah, it's good. And I eat meat, but... You don't have to just eat meat to get the B12. No, my whole thing is if it's not... If it's a vitamin that we ideally need for good health and sustenance and a plant-based diet cannot offer it... A meat-based diet can't either. I just told you they... Have it in there. Yeah, but, like, not all fish have enough B12 for you to really track. And the cows... They add B12 or inject cows with the same supplement that you can... Let's just assume that we were eating plant, like, as in cows that live off of grass-fed, live off of the land. Well, okay, we can talk about that. I just want to make it clear that you know that animals and animal agriculture are supplemented with B12 in their feed or they're injected with it, yeah? I didn't know that, but it makes sense. Because they obviously need the vitamins. Because in the... They're getting given rubbish food. There's a folder deficiency in the soil, so the cows can't always get it from the soil either. Yeah. Okay, so the soil can become B12 deficient. Yeah. So the cows don't even get enough B12, so the farmers, even if they're grass-feeding these cows, they have to add it to their diets. Yeah? Yeah. And chickens, as well, they don't get to see outdoors most chickens until they get slaughtered. Yeah. And so they're supplements. So why not just take the supplement instead of causing this massive, you know, eternal, like I said, mass murder of innocent beings just for a vitamin we can go to the store and get easily? Yeah. I mean, what you're saying has sense, but where I'm coming from is just from our raw, not from an ethical perspective, more or a moral perspective, more from a... A natural perspective? Yeah, a natural perspective. What got us to where we are today and why is this diet lacking and this other one, although now, because of the ones where... When I refer to what's good meat-eating, I refer to the natural meat-eating, right? You mean, like, something like a primal... Catching a fish from the ocean with your rod and eating that fish, you know? Going out and hunting your own cow or... Hunting a cow? No, not your cow. Like a wild animal, like a deer? Wild animal, a deer, yeah, deer, elk, kangaroo. Yeah, you're talking about... I don't do that personally, right? However, I feel... You'd rather do that than be vegan? No, I feel that that's the right way to go because why is that got... What do you mean by right? You mean because you're trying to go back in history to what they used to do, have to do to survive? No, because, like you said, that has B12 in the diet. You love it, it sounds all good stuff. Wait, didn't I meet you before, mate? No, not me. No, we're trying to teach people that eating fish is cruel and unnecessary. No, it's all good, mate. Do they feel pain, though? We don't worry on YouTube. Do you want to be on YouTube, mate? Nah, you're the star of the show now, mate. So you don't care... You care more about what's natural. You were informing me that the livestock that we grow in farms and all of that have to be supplemented because the feed that they're giving them doesn't have the right nutrients, right? Well, they just... They do supplement all... Almost all animals in animal agriculture. So I'm asking the question, does the animals that just live wild, living off the land and whatever their, you know, natural food is, do they have then the B12 and the essential... They probably do. Let's just say they do. Let's just say they did. Yeah. And let's just say that eating the wild animals was healthier. So then what I'm saying is, if we're eating a vegan diet and we're lacking or void of B12... We're not because I'm eating vegan. You're basically... What you're doing is you're designing a vegan diet that's deficient. You know? But I'm saying without the supplement. Why would I do that? Because we didn't have the supplement... I don't care. We didn't have condoms back then either. I wouldn't sleep with a girl I didn't know without a condom. I mean... Well, it depends on your views and your values. I wouldn't. I mean, I'm saying I'd use medicine and technology now. So why would you create a vegan lifestyle that doesn't have a supplement in it when it's just... It's silly. You know what I mean? We're not living in the bush with a spear. And we're actually living in civilization right now. You have a phone and clothes. I do. I have shelter. I use technology. Okay? You can live a vegan lifestyle with a B12 supplement perfectly healthy without stabbing an animal. Like I said, I have a B12. I eat a B12. I had one today, so... Yeah. So you're suggesting something that is unbalanced. You're saying you should do your vegan diet without a B12 supplement. See how long you live for. No, I'm not saying see how long you'll live for. I'm just going, let's see if you would, you know, have deficiencies down the line. Because if you didn't supplement it. Oh, yeah. The way I look at it. You could as well. Most B12 deficiencies come from non-vegans. They don't have absorption issues. You know, like everyone should be supplementing with B12 because you don't really know how much you're getting from your food. Yeah. When you supplement, you definitely know. But when it comes to meat-eating as well, I think there's also like a level of meat-eating that's, you know, if you're eating processed, packaged, unhealthy meats, I don't see that as a good thing either. You know how before you're like bacon and things like that, I don't see that as a good form of meat-eating because it's so fatty. Yeah. You're talking about health, right? Yeah. I'm talking about ethics, right? Yeah. You know, there's B12 and, yeah, we're sort of, yeah, because when you say it's not healthy, I don't care if it's healthy or not. I care more about is it ethical to do? Well, that's where we're different. Because for me, like, if you're going to tell a lion or any animal not eat its food, right, but here, start eating vegetables. A lion's in a survival situation. You're in the surface paradise. Yeah, but I think... You're not in a you're in a survival situation at all at any time in your life have you been in a survival situation? In the sense that you're discussing, no. Have you ever been starving? No, never. So you've never needed to eat an animal? Necessity. Camping, I didn't take things with me, but if I had the option you could go to the store and get potatoes. Yeah, but it was by choice, not by necessity. Necessity. Okay, so at least you're intellectually honest with me. So basically, you're doing it for like a needless reason, causing this cruelty and violence to the animals. That's what I'm trying to get to. It's not like you're in a tribe and you're trying to spear fish to feed your family or you'll probably become deficient and die. Yeah, so to summarise our discussion, I guess I see if sustainable meat-eating or fish-eating or what not done in the right ways with the right you know, practices, I don't see a problem with that practice. What do you mean the right practices? Just trying to clarify what you mean by right. I guess identifying what makes the ecosystem still, you know, grow and flourish without, you know, we're going to have extinction of fish and this, you know, octopus will die next year and you know what I mean. You're still okay causing suffering and cruelty to the individual animals if it's sustainable? Yes, yeah. Personally, yes. And the words you're using, you know, suffering and cruelty, they're living great lives as a fish out in the ocean and then you catch the fish and then you kill the fish. Yeah, you catch your fish. Yeah, you use a hook and what happens, you trick them with food? Yeah, you put bait on the and it tricks them to bite the hook and then the hook grabs them by the face and it drags them out the ocean and they, you know, they go on from sometimes the depths of the ocean and pulled up so that can rupture their insides, yeah. I don't go deep sea but yeah, people do, yeah. And then like you pull them out and breathe out of the ocean, can they? Well, the idea is if you're choosing to keep it, then you just kill it straight away. What do you kill it with? A knife. So you stab them in the head? Yeah. So you would say that there's no cruelty suffering? Of course there's suffering. Yeah. But it's just, oh, one other thing as well, not that this is my argument, but the nervous systems of fish is much more simple than that. You know, it's like if you're trying to pull us or hook in our lips, you know, how the pain that must, you know. The studies on fish, you know that they compare, they, they actually feel pain similar to mammals. Oh, I've read stuff that said otherwise, but I'm not discrediting what you said. Well, they react to not the degrees, but they start swimming really quickly. If you take them from cold water to warmer water, they swim really quickly. Like, if you try to stab a fish, they'll avoid that. They act differently when they've been injured, you know. So, they might not be exactly the same as us and they don't express. They might not even have the same type of brain, but you don't need all the type, all the parts of the brain that we have to experience pain and suffering like the fish do. So, but wouldn't you just give them the benefit of the doubt? Even if you, say me, I couldn't talk, I couldn't really express to you and you were dragging me around with a hawk and stabbing me, you'd give me the benefit of the doubt, if I was flapping around and going, what the fuck? Yeah, obviously depending on the circumstances, if my whole thing was I was going out fishing to catch a fish to take home and eat, then I, I was going out for the goal and I achieved the goal, right? But if, if I was coming from your perspective where I was just completely looking at it or you know I don't need to inflict pain on a fish, I can have a salad sandwich. You could have some potatoes and tofu and beans and vegan burger, there's more to the fries there. Yeah, I didn't like it, honestly. You didn't like it? Nah, I'm sure there's good vegan burgers. I've had good vegan burgers out there, but I didn't particularly like that one. If you didn't particularly like that one, that fish doesn't need to be stabbed to death because of it, just because of your taste preference sort of thing, you know what I mean? Like the taste of that burger says the fish that goes and then eats three other fish two minutes later. Well, fish can be hypocrites, right? It's a lie for an eye, mate. Yeah, but not really, because that fish didn't do nothing to you. So like, he did it. He did it. So like, fish can be, they don't have moral agency like we do in civilization, like so lions don't have moral agency. They don't have the option. They don't have options. They just go down and get the vegan. But you can and like if lions act in a certain way, because lions do it, mate. Like, what are you going to tell a lion and savannah to eat lettuce? Like, I can kill and eat whoever I like. No, we act civilly, you know, with morality. Like if it was a dog here, I gave an analogy today. I was talking to fishermen, right? And I said, if I had a dog here with a schmack on the hook, like a doggy tree and I like trip to grab it and I dragged him into the ocean, drown them and then got it with a fishing knife. I said, would you think that's moral? And everyone would freak out. And there's no cook or not. So you're going to have to have to have a knife or something through the fish's ears that's happening to them except the nervous systems are different between the two of them. Keep keeping it's the same thing, but there is a different level of how do you know if fish don't feel pain, well, pain, but how do you know it's not worse? Oh, once again, I watched some videos and read I wouldn't say it's inferior, it's probably serves. Did we evolve from fish? It serves what they're doing better, but what I'm saying is how, you know, I pinch you now or like it, I even say something mean about how you look and that could hurt your feelings even, you know. So it's, I think. The difference is in intelligence. I think it's a difference. Yeah. It's different because we are different. I think even a dog's an animal, a fish is an animal, but I think even they share. Do you think a dog feels pain more than a fish? I would say physical pain perhaps, but once again, do you have any empirical evidence to, there's no comparative data today sitting down with no, no researched backgrounds, just my own perspectives and ideas. It's important to be sure about these things if we're going to make like decisions that impact other beings. Hey, like, so if you go like, I don't know if that fish feels pain, so I'm going to fuck them up right now with this fishing knife. But if you go, well, mate, I'm not sure. So you're not stabbing him and going, oh, here, take that, you stupid fish. Some people do. Yeah, I've seen. And in fishing boats, where you probably get most of your fish from, I don't think you fish for every single fish that you, yeah. No, no, no. No, no, no. I eat sushi from sushi train. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of people, that's what they think. Oh, it's just this guy out there on his boat, reeling him in nice and gently. It's mostly trawling nets, dragging massive amounts. And they leave all of the stuff in the ocean as well. And they dump him back. This. Some salmon. What's this, mate? Come over here. What are you, are you being scared? Are you scared? Are you scared? What are you scared of, mate? Then come and face me. Come and face me, fish boy. Come over here. Come on. So what's this? What did you put here? Well, because they suffer and feel pain. So why would I want to cause it to him? Did you just buy that? So why did you dump it over here and run off? Oh, I'm not too sure. Are you a bit of a coward? No, definitely not. Why don't you tell me your opinion instead of running off? So I think fish feel pain, which I do. They're sentient, they're conscious beings. And they deserve not to be tortured and killed so we can have a five-minute meal. So that's my position. And you've got this, which is a cut-up animal. And that's probably a factory farm salmon. Maybe. There's no salmon here in Australia's factory farmed on big fish farms. Not necessarily. Well, let's have a look. Where's it from? Well, let's just say it's not. This fish, this animal went through immense suffering so you could dump this on the table. So why do you think that's justified? It has a choice either they can choose to eat it or not. They could. They could. I don't see why it needs to be preached that you shouldn't be eating any sort of fish. Well, you could say that about any type of animal. Well, I don't eat any type of animal because for the same reason. I wouldn't want to see you get, even though I don't particularly like you, but you might not particularly like a fish, right? But I still wouldn't want someone to hurt you and I would stop them right now if they tried to, right? Especially if it was for something like a sandwich. You know what I mean? At this sandwich you can literally get any other filling, vegan fillings that don't contain animals. This lasts five minutes in your mouth and then you flush it down the toilet. Yeah? And that was animals' entire existence. That's the only existence they get which is why I don't consume any of them. Because when you buy this, let's say you bought this from the shop, you pay for everything that happened to that animal. When you subsidize the industry, when you pay for the product, you supply and demand. Anything, even vegetables, fruit? Yeah, well fruit and vegetables don't suffer. They're not conscious beings. A banana. Very true. I don't care about a banana, but like I care about a pig, a chicken, a dog, a human, a fish. That's all. But you can take your fish. Take care. Ah, Joey Carp's wrong. I appreciate the chat, man. It was very polite and respectful of you, mate. Thanks for sitting down and giving us your opinion. Did you want to take a... Did I give you a couple of these? So this is just some fish facts. And this is a how-to vegan guide for your brother. Take care, mate. No worries, mate. Take care. I said we could eat fish, so there's nothing wrong with eating fish. No God did not say anything like that.