 on the transcript. There we go. This is, what was that? This is the since doing call probably soon to be renamed for Monday, April 10th, 2023. And I have no idea who's going to show up or what's up here. So shall we catch up with where we are? Okay. Go ahead. Should we wait a minute or two or? We don't have to. Yeah. Pardon? We don't have to. Well, I figure we can catch up and then with whoever steps in, we can get them up to our catching up. So Klaus, Pete and I sat down and looked at this project and arranged some, a couple sort of pages and folders for where to put things and talked about a few strategic things and came up with, did we do an agenda? We did an agenda, didn't we? I thought we did. Well, and I tried to sort of make more sense out of our pages and my brain was not engaging properly. So I didn't manage to sort of rationalize what we started putting up. But the idea, Klaus, is the simplest idea is, hey, let's write a book, which is an edited volume, which means a collection of a couple chapters written by different contributors, which together feel like a book. And the simplest thing that could possibly work might be an edited volume with three contributions and introductory material, end matter, a cover art, and then publish that as an ebook, as to, you know, publish that to EPUB or something like that. And then that is a goal, like a really simple book is a starting point and will give us a small victory, I think a large victory actually, considering the kinds of things we've done for three years in OGM. And then I was sort of layering on top of that the idea of Neo books or a series of books that share nuggets that have different people's propositions. So there might be a book, Klaus, that you want a champion that is about regenerative agriculture and water management and a couple other things, and whatever the structure of chapters are and whoever else you want to sort of recruit into creating that body of work, however that works out. But the idea of the regenerative economy might be a reusable module for several other books who are interested in other aspects of regeneration, for example. So that's just a really simple way of thinking about it. And then we're thinking of using massive wiki-style architecture as the underpinnings for the whole thing, it's ACA. We're thinking of using massive wiki sort of, massive wiki is basically marked down documents currently, massive wiki is marked down documents on a GitHub shared volumes. Happy Passover and etc, etc. I think it's really interesting that Ramadan Passover and Easter all overlapped yesterday, and I guess today. And so we have set up the beginnings, the rudiments of the beginnings of how that document sharing might work. We've also set up a page that has some roles that we think people could play. And we're in the roles page, for example, and Stacey was here last week when we were talking about some of this. We started using the language of book publishing. So there might be editors and there might be volumes published and so forth and reviewers or whatnot. But that language might not be the language we want to end up with. And part of what we need to talk through is what do we want to call this and how might it work. Doug Carmichael has his book Garden World Politics already written and published. You can go buy it on Amazon. But it might be very interesting to deconstruct his book and put it into the medium we're talking about here and see what else might be woven through it or how that might change the book or what else might happen. And then one last thing I'll say and then I'll stop. The book artifact is meant to be a shiny object that is an attractor to other people in the world because people in Western culture and around the world know what books are and books are supposed to be where wisdom lives. But the book is really a gateway drug to participating in discussions and sense making that's happening live online. And so and therefore the book artifacts should be connected in to resources conversations other sorts of things and how that works we haven't fully determined but we're I think we're sort of on board that that it's we're calling this a book project and a book writing project but the book is the beginning of it not the end of it in that sense. Questions anything to add? Well we're done then. I love how quickly this goes. And I think a thing one thing we one thing in front of us right now is like just naming and figuring out what to call the project because it has a couple different names and none of which are sort of are sort of fixed yet. But then another important task is hey who's interested in co-authoring or even authoring a book a book-like object and then we need to organize those teams into places and into some kind of work rhythm where what they create is consistent with other sorts of teams writing books in this under this general umbrella and how that works out. But that doesn't seem that seems like fun and you know if we're into things and in class I think a lot of materials that you've probably generated are our book happy materials we could in fact one way to start would be to take a presentation and then either take a transcript of the speech over the presentation or talk through the presentation to figure out where the edges of nuggets or modules are break them down and put them into a shared volume someplace and see what that what that leads to. I think there's lots of lots of different ways of going about this and I guess important for starting is to pick something simple to just pick something that that is is relatively evident and fun and quick to do because stop me if I'm wrong but I think that doing something quickly simply that looks like the end product we're looking for would be inspirational and useful and good. Yes Stacy. It's the first I just want to say that I'm coming on this call a little late because I'm right now struggling with knowing that I have to put my dog to sleep tomorrow. I'm sorry. Okay just to give you some background. Yeah. I think that you know based on last week that there's a group of people that are particularly interested in language so even when we talk about what we're going to call this you know I had thrown out the word channels and it was interesting because Jerry even mentioned the first time he heard it he thought of TV channels and that was like a no go for him and I was saying well channels brings us back to focusing on water and I actually liked the fact that Jerry thought of TV channels because for some people that that's a draw so for me that was a word that I thought that was a good word to use the point I'm trying to make is some people would find this kind of a conversation very picky and other people are really drawn to this conversation so when you mention a call that could be fun and you know that might be a separate call because like I said some people would be bored out of their minds or like why are these people focused on this and let's get to the point and that's reasonable too and other people and I think there should be a place on the editorial board for this particular function feel that the language used is just as important as some of the other things so I just wanted to say that. Thanks makes sense and if I go offline I'm listening I just yeah I'm so sorry. Thank you. I still remember a little too vividly having to let go of my cat Smidgen back around 2008 I think and her mom outplaced her with me when she was a kitten and I lived in Westport Connecticut it was totally an out placement her mom checked me out like this girl do and then she trained Smidgen to hunt weaned her and left never saw mom cat again and Smidgen was mine for 16 years so. Well I have one child that's very supportive and has come and one child that is not child 31 is not a child but but really putting more of a toll on me than I need because I know I'm acting for my dog enough for me so sorry. Thanks. Thank you for sharing it with us. Thank you. Well what what attracted me to this conversation and I listened in through the conversation from last week I mean you know you have been watching me bouncing all over the place with climate change and as it is connected to the food and agriculture sector and how how crazy that all is really and how fully understood by the general public and so my observation is that there is a huge gap between practitioners you know people who are working in the field and the what you what you want to call it maybe the public mindset you know the awareness and and where what people know and understand about it and so Garden World for example you know that did a really good outline as to what the future should look like or could look like if if we put our mind to it and and you know got a survival instincts up and running and and actually embraced you know that we are that we are really on a cliff now and and how few people truly understand we are on a cliff you know how how how crazy this is already unfolding and how little time there is left you know to really put some roots into the crown and and work with nature to mitigate some of the worst impacts here what's missing is the link you know to make this understandable in the context of what what can I do about it or what do I need to know about it right because when you are thinking about public policy even to the point of who you want for or who you are listening to you need to have a baseline knowledge of what is happening right and so they are some some really simple contexts I mean for example I found that one of the most understandable um uh add to it you know is that soil health when it's healthy holds water so for every one percent of organic carbon you add to the soil it can hold 20 000 gallons of water per acre and soil has something from like four to ten plus percent of carbon potential you know healthy soil so you're talking about huge volumes of water and if you don't if you cry out the soil with these chemicals there is a phenomena called desertification right which actually repels rain repels clouds and creates some some catastrophic weather patterns which we're now observing because we have millions and millions of acres that are destroyed already you know in the midwest and it's basically throughout the entire country or california big I mean there's nothing alive in california now the entire soil north to south is dead it's dirt and so to help explain these simple concepts where where people then look at the food thereby who wanting to know has this been raised you know in a regenerative field by a responsible farmer and and you know what retailer can I trust you know to source responsibly and so those simple things you know need to be better understood and disseminated and I find my own personal effectiveness you know working working practically uh with with groups I mean everybody's like super concerned about making money and getting crayons and you know finding revenue models and what have you and it's so distracting from what you're basically trying to accomplish now I'm in a fortunate position I don't need to raise money right I mean I've been working for free for like 10 years now since I retired and uh and it allows me to you know float you know but it makes people I'm floating with nervous because my motivations are so different you know and and I don't really care that can predict who you who you report to yeah that's one thing yes wow um and so and so um you know so the idea of taking ducks garden world and expound on it right so let's say we want to make this happen what would it take you know this is very practical very uh hands on kind of thinking you know and so when I did right now I mean I posted some stuff USDA USDA is right now trying to solicit marketing teams in communities so they have like 56 million dollars set aside who creates the local and regional partnership teams to set up local food systems no one understands what that is I mean my own hometown here I checked in with the general manager of the soil and water conservation district I said is anybody applying for this she was surprised she had no idea about it it's just like it go brands rule and so even within the agency you know the communication process and how the role is out and who all needs to be engaged this is not what we would have done in a corporate world right I mean if this need us something like this holy smokes you know we're lining up all the horses you know to pull into one direction and this is just a chaotic mess where the only and it's it's like getting rolled up again with companies who are now spending millions of dollars with their lobbyists to you know pull that chip into a completely different direction so so that's I mean with as little reach as we have and and as little as we can do you know if the information can be structured in ways that it's simple to understand simple concepts right because it really is at the core of very simple stuff and so now Gene Ballinger agreed to to work with me hosting conversations right with people coming together and and discussing this and in the discussions you know you you you spark relations right that would not happen otherwise so a funding guy you know a hedge fund manager all of a sudden hears you know a farmer speak in ways that you know there was no awareness to this and so simply by saying things you are changing them right the word now let me put in the word into place so that's sort of where my thinking is I'm just I'm just really tired you know in some ways because I've been fighting this for so long it's making progress on some level but then as soon as you start making progress you see it on a really intensive backlash you know from companies and financial interests who don't want to have anything to do with it so yeah so this strikes me as maybe you know just just creating an information base because we're talking about AI right and can you trust it you know who has been feeding this with data so if we can provide a database where this is it right I mean this is how this works and and here is your role as a consumer you know as a as a shopper now as a participant in in a democratic process is what you can do what you have not the the personal reach to do that's sort of where I'm at thanks class brief thought um and this may seem like it's out of left field but I mean this to overlay on what you just said so I follow a guy who does a bunch of youtube shorts about flexibility just you know muscular flexibility and he's just really funny he's mostly in his kitchen or outdoors doing a bunch of stuff he's insanely he's sort of strong and flexible and so forth and he puts out a bunch of free pds a couple of which I've downloaded that are hey here's four weeks to total hamstring flexibility and he's got a bunch of others and he's like these are free price is good um but these are little snippets out of his body of work that is very disconnected because they're youtube shorts they're they're amusing they're a minute long and each one of them is inspiring and you're like oh I could do that that's good but they're not woven into any kind of context at all they're just like a spray of little videos but then he does these little book things that take one particular thing and line up a bunch of advice which makes total sense so at the start of what you were saying it's like hey I get this whole healthy soul thing but what do I do there could easily be given the structure we're talking about we could spit out books what what do I do about holding more water on my property what do I do about increasing soil organic matter and we and recognizing it what do I do about earthworms what do I like I don't know but but within your topics class I can easily see a bunch of easy to access things which spit out into a pdf are accessible to people who think pds but in fact those nuggets live online where we're busy making them better and connecting them up to like wait you know your neighbors who are interested in doing that so hey did you know that there's like a water runoff meetup in your neighborhood would you like to join it or something like that and then I'm it's dawning on me that we haven't really thought or talked enough about probably what GPT and it's ilk what generative AI means for this project because because in a realm of activities we could start to auto generate there's a guy I put in my brain who's published the most books of any human on earth because he was generating books with software way before GPT in a really simple way but he's published I don't know two when I noticed him and added him to my brain he had already published like 200 000 books on to amazon that you could go buy computer generated and it's like huh we don't really think of that we think that a person writes five or six books in a lifetime and that was a prolific author or like 20 books in lifetime oh my god how did they do that but we got we got software right and a whole bunch of topics and a whole bunch of people who want to get make things more accessible more useful sounds great and and and cause I've had a couple really interesting conversations in the last few days about pattern languages and patterns I think there's a very very nice pattern language to write if not to find and then amplify about water and soil health there's got to be a really nice pattern language there and if there isn't one that would be a very fun project to do and to spit out as a book and to modularize and make use of etc etc so I your topic is pardon the pun fertile grounds for a lot of interesting sort of project work that feels like and here in this sense doing or whatever we're going to call it call we're really interested in sort of those artifacts and the pieces of it but but it all makes sense to me I don't know if it makes sense to everybody else yeah I mean it makes sense I think I would need some guidance uh you know in in uh well I don't know who's going to do that yeah that's not that's all right you know but um we'll help yeah that's yeah so because I mean that that's really not my skin set you know I mean I um I buy it we got you yeah we got you no seriously like if we can sort of figure this out and and as we map out a path and start figuring out what the pieces are then for each piece like inviting in a few other people who really care about that that aspect that facet uh and creating creating stuff I think that would be awesome Pete has all this like caused any any sparks to fly for you or yes no positive negative I'm interested in the project and you know I'm certainly interested in in Klaus's book or books um and and actually Klaus every time I think about you know a big project like this organizing information publishing information you're one of the people who I say you know is a subject matter expert that we need to do a better job or Doug you know both um I think so let me switch topics a little or let me let me switch gears a little bit and talk about my what I think I can I can bring to the project and a big chunk of it while there's I forget what I call it technical editing technical technical publishing or something like that some of the some of the plumbing stuff I'm certainly going to be helping with another thing that I think I would like to help with is kind of program management project management for this effort a big part of that original email I wrote was just like you know let's let's get a small thing done um rather than never getting anything done so I think I'm going to keep pushing in the meetings I'm in for let's get something done and it can be a small thing but if if we're making progress doing things that's a good thing so I think I can imagine it'll be interesting to see where this call goes um I think we need a couple different kinds of calls not right away but um some calls will be the editorial board some calls will be kind of the editor-in-chief or the publishers board some of them will be project project management program management some of them will be you know writing about either either talking about you know I've got subject matter I want to write about or this you know we're meeting to to talk about this particular kind of subject matter we're working on one book hey Doug um so uh I I don't uh I don't mean to say that this call ought to be the program management project management call but um I think as an overall effort one of the things that we should do is have a bias towards towards output bias towards product um uh so I think even in this call well so I'd like to I guess I would like to start to see some bootstrapping of um uh figuring out what what needs to be done next and making a list of those things um and then Jerry I this was kind of your idea we we talked about this maybe last week and in the sense during call um uh let's pick a two or three but two or three you know I forget what you I was thinking much smaller than you I think let's pick a ten page book uh two or three chapters or whatever and just freaking get the thing done um and in the process of doing stuff we'll flesh out um the some process that we know about and we'll illuminate process that we need to um need to work on so so in this call I would I would love it if we at least came out of uh you know next next step I would love it if we came out with a list of next steps and um and maybe again well actually that's good enough um uh a stretch goal would be uh to have uh better arrangement of our home on the ogm wiki so we can tell people you know here's here's the page to start with and and you'll see from there how to read about what we're doing and where we're going I couldn't I couldn't call my brain over the weekend long enough to actually do that because I wanted to make it better just to show here and it's still kind of messy so uh but that's that's me um cool and I just to add to what you said I think that that we may want to sort of germinate um uh what what want the one book project might look like and then that and whoever's in and basically pitch that to all of ogm and whoever wants to show up for that we can set up as a separate call for actually the creation of the short for the first pass the shortest possible book on the subject and then and then for pass number two okay great you know lather and repeat make it longer make it bigger better whatever but um that'd be great but I think that the writing teams will have their own calls as I think you were just pointing to that this this will be the the editorial meta structure ops call here and Doug uh you and Klaus are kind of our two model citizens for when we think about people who have bodies of work that would be really interesting to turn into neobooks or or whatever it is we're talking about here and you've already got a book that's available on amazon so and I don't know how whether or how much you're interested in kind of deconstructing it uh on the web so that it might be reusable or roll-up-able or something like that um uh huh well I'm I'm very interested uh it's interesting and also kind of fun to think about how to do it and my problem at the moment is I'm getting ready to go to Montenegro and so time pressures are pretty intense but I do have some and if the project makes sense I would be delighted to participate Montenegro sounds like a country invented for a 1010 novel but it's still it's a real place but barely it's one it's one of those names I'm like oh yes Montenegro that's where the the diva sings when the magpie steals her jewels or something yep the way you get the if you draw a line from Rome to east across the Adriatic and hit the east coast of the Adriatic that's where Montenegro is that sounds pretty much kind of in the crosshairs of a lot of forces which is why I kind of picked it cool and yeah can you tell us why you're going why I'm going uh uh yeah to experience what the heck is actually happening to real people under climate change it's going to be very hot uh food is going to be threatened I think prices are going to be going up what's the local conversation like so I'm going to uh just wander around in the coffee shops and pick up what I can awesome hmm will you uh are you Airbean being it or what do you what's your uh my son who is an art dealer is joining me oh he has rented a house that we get as of May 1st that's actually right on the water that sounds terrible walk out the front door ghost woman that was just awful we will have to live vicariously through your adventures please share some photos or something like that well some texts for sure cool so but the idea of kind of deconstructing garden world into its components and seeing where they are now you know I'm increasingly taking the view that even if you go with a very high tech scenario people have to eat and live somewhere and garden world is still relevant across scenarios it's interesting I had a call with Corey Doctor who I really like and was thinking I really admire and my question to him kind of was gosh you have such good critiques of everything if someone made you god tomorrow what things would you pick up as plans for the new infrastructure for how we build society for how this for how that and I we didn't get that far into that part of the conversation but I'm I'm extremely interested in what that would look like you know what governance model do you think of the ones you've seen would actually work how would we build value how would we build the shared memory of what we know which which are aspects of his novels right his science fiction books explore all these all these topics so well I think most people are hamstrung by the idea they want to get from where we are to a better place in a straight line without going through problems and my view is we've got the fall apart a little bit before we can put it together and we don't know what that's going to look like I'm really taken with Polybius's view from Rome that the the problems we face should determine the kind of politics we have so that democracy is good when you have internal struggles because you get the voices but if the problem is externally you need good group unity to deal with it and you're going to move to a more authoritarian structure I think that's where we're going to go and it's going to be really messy is this the his view his sequence of antipsychosis monarchy tyranny aristocracy oligarchy democracy o-clocracy exactly and I don't even remember what o-clocracy is I don't either you can look it up this is one of those cyclical theories of history this is from his 40 volume histories oh o-clocracy is mob that doesn't sound good no and as I wrote on my blog a few days ago you know maybe what we're going to fail and everybody is so depressed about that but an alternative view is it's been a great run we should celebrate this been a great party and like all good parties it comes to an end so we should just go to the restaurant at the end of the world and at the end of the universe and enjoy the view well we could be more active than that I don't know it doesn't sound like you're saying that yeah before a lot of human interaction music poetry uh let's I mean I'm making a little tongue in cheek with that but I think that our tendency to see change as as terrible and the potential solution to be something which is permanent forever is a mistaking strategy things are going to change everything fails it's not terrible but before you joined we had a discussion and I shared some some thoughts about why I am interested you know in this conversation and my thinking is that garden world is a great destination you know it's a it's a destination that's that would bring a lot of of benefits in regard to mitigating and adapting to a new reality my journey sort of is how do you get to this destination you know what pathway do you pick and I like the donna la meadows the leverage points of a system analogy because it it's visualizes how you move from narrative to ever increasing levels of complexity to actually get into the economy into parts of the economy that don't necessarily understand the philosophical underpinnings of narrative but they understand the direction they have to move into and so the to to help people understand where they are at to help a farmer a processor you know a chef in a catering organization helped them understand a mother who is on the board of the catering organization in her school now worrying about healthy meals for their children what do they need to know to move towards that destination so that's that's the maybe roughly speaking the pathway you know to to garden world story and I think that the the and to really consciously break that down by strada you know you know what does a policy maker have to know who is not a farmer or a food expert what do they need to know in order to make sound policy decisions even in the community right my city my little city bend doesn't even have food and agriculture on the list of sustainability issues and that's the case in most communities in the united states it's just not on the agenda because it's not understood now yeah so I'm really I mean I'm playing this out a ways ahead of writing a simple book but years ago I met Zenobia Barlow who worked at the center for eco literacy in Berkeley whose main purpose is to get schools to grow their own food and to show you know schools how to get kids out there making lettuce and beans and whatever and cooking and whatnot and it was really cool and I'm like this should just take over the world like every school should have a as much as possible even if it has to be indoors like above the gym and the bleachers they should be growing some crops or something and I'm very interested and then one one one of my heroes is the brother duo of Hank and John Green the vlog brothers who invented something called nerdfighteria and I don't know if nerdfighteria is still a movement or still a thing but nerdfighters are not fighting nerds they're nerds fighting world suck and this is one of those teen tween adventure things that is really really cool where a lot of kids back in the day and again I don't know if this is still like burning hot but it was it was just awesome because young people who wanted to make a difference would become nerdfighters and they had that they had a gang sign this this was the gang sign for nerdfighteria which is like you know live long and prosper and like two of them crossed in front of you um they had a gang sign it was all in really good humor all science based etc etc and how do we glue those things together so that it's really fun for kids and families to go hack food in their school without having to go to the school board and the supervisors where battles are being fought over what freaking books can be in the library but instead where you just kind of peck away at the infrastructure and make things better and then step step off onto a DIY world where people pick up responsibility and agency and just start doing things and for me all our activities are kind of a gateway drug to to things like that where where the sense making leads to going and doing stuff together like building a plot behind the school you know by the football field uh and making food for example well let me deconstruct that for a moment because I mean no doctor you'll go ahead first oh I want to hear the deconstruction an element in garden world is adding aesthetics and putting where we live where we grow food so that it's a united environment which is safe for children safe for old people and a pleasant place to live uh i'm very affected by the arts and crafts movement of the 1880s and 1890s which tried to do a small-scale architecture for democratic society and I think the adding the aesthetic element brings in music art dance architecture uh which makes it of a much more challenging and fruitful project love that yes please go ahead class yeah so so let's let's take a school that has let's say 2000 students in it some are even larger um and uh and and so they serve regular meals typically each catering whether that's hospital or college or schools and so on have menus that are rotating every eight weeks every 12 weeks would have set menus with ways so they're not pretty much you know what they're going to to serve on Thursday it uh august whatever uh how many meals and how these meals are breaking down into what kids are actually picking off the liner of the menu so so the purchasing managers are translating that into forecasts um so that so they know they need you know X thousands of pounds of potatoes and carrots and salads and so on and so on they also know that they want their salad pre-washed and and their vegetables already processed you know so when when uh when when a local non-profit you know wants to initiate school meals uh or college meals and I've actually physically experienced this because I've done I've I've had these conversations in the Palouse region and here in Bend Oregon so I go to the catering manager of the local hospital system and I say how are you doing buying local and she's saying I'm not as you got these people are totally unreliable I mean there's no way I can buy a local as everyone why not if she goes well there's no planning process in place because a farmer needs to know what to grow how much of it and when it needs to be ready for delivery something like six months in advance at least four months in advance so before a crop goes in the ground it's typically sold so there is this there's a brokerage process you know where um a supplier typically handles that now they work with the clients to establish a demand analysis then they go into the supply chain now they order from a farmer their contract with a processor and then and a visa logistics service to deliver on time so those are the mechanics of providing locally grown foods to to a larger caterer on top of it when you are now working with local farmers you may need you may need to combine 20 30 farmers for one order because they don't have the capacity to grow enough of one crop to fulfill these orders you now need an aggregator in the middle right so those are the technical complexities which which which USDA is right now trying to surface but the way they do it is not really clear to understand and you can't get these nonprofits to sit still long enough and listen to to a process structure that they need to embrace and follow through now so so that's the sort of how to it just simply doesn't exist and and so when you this is just like one example but but farming is contracting you know and and and it starts with forecasting and so that's the because the school kitchens don't have the flexibility to deal with this irregular order so if the farmer comes and I've experienced this year and bent farmer comes out of a thousand pounds of potatoes can somebody please take it no because everybody has already contracted what they need to buy and the orders are coming in so this guy is wasting a thousand pounds of potatoes because there's no taker because he hasn't gotten he hasn't made the arrangements up front so and it is this very technical aspect you know of building markets building local markets where the infrastructure has been demolished over the last you know 30 40 years so what used to be farming co-ops and uh pulk wage services and so on it just doesn't exist anymore thanks Doug you still have your hand up unless you're jumping back in no but I'll take the opportunity please is anybody besides me worried by a few number of people that are here it's Easter Monday I don't know and we haven't we haven't sort of come back into the group to tell them what's up and what's where so I'm a little concerned but not big not big Lee okay Pete are you how are you feeling um yeah I I'm similar I'm I'm a little I wouldn't say concerned I would say disappointed not that I expect people to have to be here but yeah it's a little bit light um I also think that we have to have um better you know better structure uh async structure so that we can say you know on Friday we could have sent out a mail saying by the way on Monday we're meeting and here's the things we're working on here's the books here's the background so we don't know that yeah and I think that getting our house tidier and having like uh things to show like hey there's a team over here that's doing this and they're following these steps and here's a description of this project and all that and I'm I'm and I'm happy to put in the work to do that I just like my brain wasn't cooperating and doing it this weekend but I see that that if we do that and come back into our communities with that I think we'll get more people does that answer your question Doug yeah I mean it shows that we have some concern but it's not overwhelming yeah don't panic um I so usually this call goes until the hour uh as a 90 minute call um I'd like to to suggest that we maybe take half hour of that and set it aside for making lists of task lists or or something like that we could shift right now into some of the doing mode and get some of the stuff done together that'd be fine with me sound good everybody um Jerry uh um uh do you want to share your screen should I share mine I think we're going to be looking at the wiki and and making a task list which could be on the wiki yeah let me let me actually just share my obsidian for a sec yeah and we can step to a different way if we want to do it a different way but and so this is the page that Pete and I were working on and it's messy right now because it's got a whole bunch of things that we brainstorm that are needed uh there are pages now for example for roles so here are the different kinds of roles that we think uh need to exist and this is in the language of book publishing and we might change that you know we might be managing tv channels or we might be managing an ecosystem estuary or we might be managing communities who knows um but we have there's a couple pages out there uh we took Pete's original proposal and gave it its own page so here's what he wrote to the ogm list on uh march 23rd which has led to our our calls here and then a piece of the intention here was what do newbies coming into this project see and then once somebody is in uh where do we find what we're doing uh what are we up to uh what do we use for project management what books are actually underway uh what tools are we using to do this who is here uh and a fact file and things of that nature so i think uh pete did you want to add a task list to this or a separate page for tasks i think you had mentioned right here uh we should build the task page for this um shall i create a new page and then i'll take the dictation from what we all say uh yeah that sounds good so shall i just call it tasks page or ogm uh what should i call it um i think tasks is good just tasks yeah i have a crazy idea what's your crazy idea um uh i i find it a little bit hard to focus on just um um uh just this project when i know there's a bunch of other pages there uh some stuff um we can actually open yeah that's another way to do it that's easy out of sight out of mind um yeah that's that's great good enough um cool so um uh start spinning out tasks i i have a suggestion for a kind of a bootstrap yeah um right now it's got two names and neither one of them is is appropriate uh so the two names right now are ogm topics and sense doing um i think you need a space in between the brackets and then probably a dash space fashion front yeah like that yep and now it turns into okay good thanks um so i i would suggest that we want to choose a temporary name even just so that we can uh get over the the i get over the distracting fact that we've got two names neither which is very good okay and pete one of your suggestions was to pick a name that is unrelated to the task at hand just a project name from anywhere which like amazon or ebay or yeah which i'm i'm i'm okay i'd kind of like this to to be sort of a relevant name but you know if there's a if there's a name we can give this that would make sense so another thing i think uh is uh re this is a probably a multiplex task but um um uh reorganizing the wiki pages yep yep um and stacey with apologies to you if you don't like this um but we could name this project marley marley um and i apologize i i'm forgetting it's marley you mean my dog yeah is it marley it's marley it's marley i was close sorry about that one love um but we could do that just memorializing him that would be beautiful i'm good with that yay task done comes up i i would um i would actually just call it marley um the yeah that's good and i'll go back and rename pages and and we like that that now factors into re-order the wiki pages because now we can call things marley this marley that marley ops whatever we can do that can you break that top one into two things yep choose choose a temporary name and then rename the project marley is beautiful but doesn't it uh make a burden for the reader to have to understand definition of a new word that's what the problem with the temporary name is we've moved to a i i i i propose that we've moved to a better place we had two names previously since doing an ogm topics um neither one had you know any better meaning than marley so at least we've condensed to one and it won't be colliding with anything else in the wiki uh that's true i was going to suggest a neo book or something like that but i was going to say i was going to say placing the stones because i keep hearing um you know people are talking about like the way the waters run and about moving the rocks and to me i'm thinking of like placing the stones in order to direct the current but i don't know what word you might want to use but that's the picture that i keep getting there are two stone names that are pretty cool about that one is weir which is you can make with stones which is a basically when you block a river to trap fish it's called a weir and you do weirs for other reasons too and then cairns are stacks of stones so when you walk someplace and somebody has stacked a bunch of stones that's called a cairn there's probably other good words too but those would be interesting words um uh i'm gonna i'm gonna suggest another thing um and this is uh go slow to go smooth go smooth they go fast uh smooth this uh slow as smooth smooth as fast i had one other story hold on a sec stacey uh jay you should make a new page future names potential names so um naming project yeah what uh what do i call it uh project naming yeah and then yeah right click on that and open i'll come back um you should have been able to open it in a new uh i think you're right i just wasn't smart enough to do that at the moment so let me pull let me give a different kind of name what if we call it uh collapse management collapse uh i would not want to participate in a project called collapse management it's too i'd like the idea of it and so i think that should go on the name page too okay so i want something that's more visceral uh we're in a time when the number the amount of writing about climate change and related issues is increasing very rapidly the result is each person has to make more choices as to where to be and the result of that is each place has fewer people in it so we have a problem of needing to uh generate energy around our titles correct and stacey the the the first time you said stones it was rearranging the stones in the stream right what was what was what i'm sorry uh what was the phrase you you had oh um something uh to the effect of placing the stones to direct the current placing the stones yeah prime minister she from china likes to use the phrase crossing the stream on the stones and i'm a fan of one or two word max as opposed to this phrase but but we you know calling something long names is not going to help us write about it or attract attention or whatever else which is why i went to things like weirs or cairns because it's a single word that means something about stones and i don't know what the word is for a stone crossing across a river that's it probably has a name in some cultures that would be interesting to find out maybe something as trivial as mapping the future putting in some some reference to we're looking at the future um i i own weaving the future i think weaving the world is uh something you are all i actually own that was supposed to be a podcast and stalled um channel channels belongs here too this is a hard task because we're really creating our identity which is partly why pete was suggesting a sort of a non-relate an unrelated placeholder name a placeholder name that's why is that when it's when it's not related then it's non-controversial well i don't know except for this no go ahead i don't know if this is getting too creative and it doesn't work but i just was thinking of just a symbol you know i'm thinking of like how prince changed his name to just that symbol the project formerly known as well you know like what we call the studio or blank studio something studio but studio i like studios when april and i were in a smaller flat and the only door we had was the door to the bathroom i installed a full-leaf table from ikea in the bathroom and we used i said i want to take this call in the atelier and so and so that fancied up the fact that i was sitting in the bathroom blurring my background and and pardon canvas canvas and so so i think we are rapidly illustrating pete's advice to go to something temporary because because there are lots of different things we could sort of call this and i think also the richness of what we're doing if we pull it off will emerge as we're doing this thing and we'll suddenly realize that we're referring to it in a particular way that will make sense and the the the long term name may actually like grow out of our activities together in the project which i like i i'd also like to just observe that where we we switched from making a list of things that we need to do to doing a particular thing which is cool because we got a lot of you know brainstorming activity and it was in the moment and stuff like that and and also it's a test switch which has overhead yeah um so i think you can check off a new temporary name yeah and then project naming is it's a good page but it's not a task in this list it doesn't it doesn't look like a task uh because i named the page name or what do you mean well um i a task should be completable um it should be actionable specific so it's probably like got a verb in a noun and maybe a subject object verb um so that there's a task which is rename or you know change change the project name to marley and maybe it just goes under that top bullet or there that's fine so that's in the wiki um and we'll maybe also make an announcement um that's that's what i mean by put out a call across ojm land that was my fancy way of saying make an announcement well specifically about name change i think also the call across ojm land should include you know status update you know hey folks we're going to report in on the ojm topic since doing thing we've changed project marley we have new wiki pages you know reminder we have the monday meetings you're welcome to the next monday meeting um yes and i think that that should happen when we're done with reorder the wiki pages and i agree yes except that except there should be kind of an additional task which is uh time it's a it's a scheduled task uh so i on probably on this friday or thursday friday um uh we should send out a reminder to the list uh you know reminder there's a a project marley call uh the modric marley call um on monday i made that a repeating i phrased it as a repeating task yes cool um and then i added find book champions i don't know the better way to say that uh that's great and then go ahead uh choose a topic for the first book yeah a topic and contributors or is that a separate task um actually they're they're interrelated right yeah i think so i would make someone cool what else um uh in between the the top header and the list uh add a line that says last updated on and then i guess put today's date are there other boot shopping things folks can think of that need to get done and i think one of the practical questions for claus and dug is i think of you both as book champions in the frame of marley here uh and that what would you want to see that you would help you orient your activities around this like like what resources will you will you need because that's what we should create we should we should sort of serve we should design wiki pages and other resources in a way that serves you and whoever else shows up wanting to uh write a book in that way we may want to start by reading chapters or an index um that sort of sets topics in place yeah i see the process as a simplification of what i wrote uh moving it in the direction of a slideshow powerpoint uh and if there were a number of those then the conversation would be about how they intersect and how to further the whole project um a really fun complexification of this project and it's probably way too complicated right now but it's fun and interesting is could some of these um artifacts that we create be uh presentation decks or graphic novels or annotated books uh stafford beer published books that had a lot of handwritten commentary and illustration wrapped around printed text back in the day when that was not simple uh so his books were elaborate sort of works and it's really interesting to see because they were much richer but there could be some ways to do that at this at this point the simplest thing we're going to do is publish pros uh in markdown files that wraps up and spits out as e-pub but there's all sorts of technology at hand that we might avail ourselves of in the future i think of the book that we would do as a uh invitation to a conversation that's online rather than looking at the conversation as an invitation to the books um what's the difference and why does it matter to you i mean the the notion of that i'm completely on board for i love that but what's the difference between the two it moves from the static to the active that going from the book to the conversation right more alive i think books are dead me too so what i'm saying as part of what is a neobook is books are just souvenirs that are recognized valuable cultural objects that will attract people to go oh i know what a book is i'd like to read a book and they are gateway drugs to the conversations and the activities that they are connected to that's my my hope and an aspiration here well i see the books as being signpost to a conversation copy that task from the chat jay uh the our book's dead or which you mean the dugs yeah got it because we need we need that every time we say book we need to say by the way we don't mean yep whoops that's interesting it killed the second parent the second quote and when i put a quote in obsidian wants to do two quotes it's got a is it not recognizing the initial quote no it is actually if you highlight that whole thing and type one quote that's what it's trying to do for you yeah got it thank half the time it helps and half the time it's frustrating yeah and you can turn it off it's a future but i really like that you open a parent and it gives you the close parent all that you know it's smart that way one of the features i love about about obsidian is that i do i do two left brackets and it shows me all the pages in my namespace that's awesome i love that um cool what else do we need uh while we're thinking of that how about if we assign and put goal dates for at least some of these okay um so this one is you and me maybe or just you i think so i kind of want to pair program it with anybody but i i tried to do it by myself and i wasn't really getting there and i think it'd be pretty quick for two but do you want to do it or oh let's do it together all right uh by when uh 417 so so by 417 means that well it'll be done yes on or before 416 uh if that's what you or by so i chose that date because it's seven days from now by the meeting yeah that's what that's what i mean by when it by writing by 417 yep um and and part of reorg the wiki pages is changing project references so that'll be folded in okay sounds great um so that one should be jerry um for 414 and um for the heck of it put 414 there okay well it could be and fridays but that's the first friday coming up um another thing is yep it'll be awesome do you want to do or fly uh do you want to take the first pass yeah it's better if you take the first pass all right because you and i still have some some divergence and yeah how we think of this all right uh and i'll do it by the weekend unless this is a plex week no next week right next week yeah what else i i feel like we need more work on i it would be we need some work on roles um mm-hmm and i'm not even sure what the work is or but the the special thing is um to have have a kind of a shared agreement what they are and how we communicate them and stuff like that yeah and i think a part of rationalizing the wiki is doing things like making sure that the roles page makes sense and is coherent with whatever what else we're saying so yeah cool this seems like plenty for now yep good start yep thanks all right i will push the page oops it's not letting me type that's weird there we go looks like that work cool um we can wrap this call a little bit early or if there's something else that anybody feels like we should tackle right now for 15 minutes we can do that back do you see a pathway towards extending garden world into a a application process is to so here is the destination and here is the path towards the destination to to to extend uh i think what's going to happen is we're going to get some failures of supply chains which puts local populations at risk and they will gather together and out of that gathering will emerge uh some sense of what the resources are what they need where they might get it it's going to be a very messy process it doesn't have to be um that that's that's what us da is trying to do now is to be proactive and to connect the supply chain participants market participants coactively because now is the time to talk about it and even to bring awareness of the process now into into being so that when it happens everybody knows what to run to that would be preferable but less probable yeah doug do you have any do you have any theory or even like calculus of change in the sense of there are already natural disasters happening in wealthy places that like a whole bunch of people one of the problems is that a lot of poor people are suffering around the world and have been for a very long time and it's really really bad and we don't seem to do very much we don't we sort of ignore it i mean uh the the war in ukraine is somehow weirdly exceptional because putin went for war on ukraine thinking hey i did this like twice before and nobody said nobody did the thing obama didn't respond when i took Crimea we did nothing the world just sort of sat there so they're going to do that again and guess what this time the world was like oh no you're not this is civilizationally important we're going to stop you and he didn't expect that and oops and we're seeing all sorts of climate and other kinds of effects happening already everywhere and i don't know where the tipping point and i'm not asking you to predict the tipping point but i'm kind of asking do you have a model for it because it feels like a strategic recommendation might be to not help people who are in trouble so that their troubles will be exacerbated because the more we patch and fix things the longer we delay the moment when everybody goes through the really bad crisis that actually convinces people to begin acting and there's a very complex inner interplay between molifying or or patching up the problems and you're just and helping people survive these crises which are awful and getting us to experience a deep enough crisis that we in fact go through the consciousness change that we need to start fixing stuff if that's even a possibility which i think you harbor in the back of your mind as a possibility but i could be wrong uh so i realized that's a really complicated question but i'm curious about whether you have a model for it uh and any kind of thresholds any kind of even a flimsy scaffolding for how this might play out and what to do or not do would help uh i really don't i've got a lot of thoughts and critiques of proposals as to why they are unlikely uh i think that that the food crisis puts people at deep risk in 48 hours that's where the difficulty comes and that's partly why i'm going to eastern europe is to see how people are coping with that where i think it's already a problem maybe your question was too long and so i lost the simple answer well i think that i think that the way you're framing the dilemma raises a bunch of important questions about public perception of the depth of the problem which directly affects whether or not people feel like oh my god it's time to change now and the more we patch or ignore the problem maybe the longer we delay uh that one of the problem is that my thinking tends to be long term which doesn't integrate very well so it seems to me that the crisis the long-term crisis is the continuation of too much co2 in the atmosphere and with the failures of social systems along the way we lose the leverage on the technology to be able to sequester co2 so we're getting ourselves into a trap that we're not capable of handling but also isn't co2 as a key focus for everything everywhere a misleading guideline for what to do isn't it like just a it can be both how do you mean well co2 has become a you know it's a it's a third rail um so a more familiar thing to me is masks um you know wearing n95 masks is still something we could be doing to prevent you know hundreds of deaths per week but but we can't even talk about masks because it's become a confusing hairball of a subject is you know it's just repellent to everybody no actually depends where you live well um and who you live with uh co2 is kind of the it you know it's like oh my god another co2 thing it's it's become a political football it means many different things but i think something that doug said is still true it's a long-term crisis that needs to be fixed um so even the fact that i mean even though it's a hairball um and as as that's kind of what i i telescopeed out of your question it is a hairball it's a distraction and it's also something really critical you know it's both it's not yeah and i agree with everything you just said i what i meant more was that focusing on carbon sequestration oversimplifies the nature and essence of the problems at hand and doesn't actually necessarily fix things let's pretend we invented a an energy-free way of of trapping carbon from the atmosphere and implemented immediately we would probably catalyze a series of new problems and a bunch of other things and i'm not sure we would fix everything that's broken absolutely the only point i wanted to make is that the movement of events is likely to make it harder to do the sequestration however not the the the photosynthesis is basically the one avenue of carbon sequestration that is most readily available and when you would think about photosynthesis the primary driver here is agriculture and our food system whether that's aqua forestry or agriculture in general so when you think about i mean translating from long-range vision to short-term immediacy i mean during world war two the united states shifted into victory gardens and produced 40 percent of its food supply and also backyards and that happened within boom one year you know it's because and you can get seeds into the ground instantly and so the there is the capacity for a for a fast response if now the the the communication is as intense as it was during world war two during immobilization and the problem is if we are waiting for the impetus towards immobilization it would probably be too late to do much about it so that's the dilemma that i see which is why grand tonberg wants us to panic so that we'll act as if there's a war on so that we'll respond in large enough measure for the scale of the threat sorry stacey go ahead no that's okay um claus said it in better words i was just going to say i think that if we focus on the soil and the water and add the creativity and the aesthetics it brings it into the short term and there's lots of things lots of people can do within that realm i agree my view is that what we the best thing would be to everybody plant everything they can everywhere they can as rapidly as possible and it doesn't even matter what just get something growing in every piece of land have you seen that have you seen the edible landscape ted tedx talk that i point to now and then Doug the morning um for like if you wanted to create a you know world edible edible world scape movement that would be really fun i'll put a link in the chat yeah we need where is the it's actually kind of amazing that nobody's emerging as the leader at a high enough level to have an impact you'd think at this point it would make their career to do it uh yeah but so this is a parallel thing happening right now there were a couple tweets recently because it's tax time right now apparently intuit and the tax prep world doesn't want the government to prepare our taxes which they could do like in britain i think the government basically files your taxes because they know how much you made because everything is reported along the way and you only file if you have an exception with what the government discovered you owed for your tax liability um we have that possibility but there are extremely strong lobbies including intuit i guess who don't want that to happen because then their business would go away or some chunk some good large chunk of their business would go away um that's really interesting to me that's just a it's a political mess that causes us all to spend a whole lot of time and money uh doing stuff we hate doing that we probably don't need to do and i think it's very parallel here like okay so how do we how do we get over that hump and change the the regs yeah we saved the world good i like that i like that we have the the answer but yeah yeah okay here's the answer i better not lose the recording to this call um cool that's probably a good moment so next week's call should be about figuring out how to implement the answer yeah yeah exactly jerry i just want to tell you have touched i and it really that means a lot to me really really thank you thank you you're welcome that's nice and i and i like it it warms my heart too so yes it's good not the implementation but the the the path towards implementation yeah you know the because the if this was to happen right now let's say the awareness would happen right now and let's do something people would run in circles because where do i look what what you know how do i do this you see and so to anticipate this moment in time and prepare for it i think it would be would be a good uh step to take you know i mean that's the key idea of garden world right it's very hard to do progressive things if you don't have an image of where you're going yep and i'd like you idea back to visualize this you know and move it into a powerpoint frame where because there's one picture you can explain an entire chapter well it's like any Leonard's story of stuff or chipotle is a thing about farming and all that there are a bunch of talented people have spent some money to do animations or other kinds of storytelling to get these messages across and sometimes they work uh although i will say that sir ken robinson's uh criticism apt criticism of the educational system is the the most or the second most viewed ted talk in the universe in the known universe and look at how much change that has caused almost none as far as i can tell i could be wrong i hope i'm wrong anyway um let's wrap this call thank you very much i think we have marching orders for a bit here and a nice task list thank you thank you all and uh more soon thank you