 Today I'm excited to be here with Catherine Golub and she is a career clarity and leadership coach and we're going to have some great conversation around how do we, what are the steps to getting clear about the next steps in our career and particularly we'll touch a bit on burnout as well which is really important to focus on. But first of all I want to say hi Catherine thanks for being here. Hey George. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so looking forward to this so let me go ahead and read your official bio for the audience and then we'll get going. Alright so Catherine Golub is the founder of the Center for callings and courage, and we'll talk about that in this conversation and a career and clarity and leadership coach with eight years in full time practice. Catherine specializes in helping burned out change makers who are confused about their next steps and to help them heal from burnout, get clear about what's calling them next and develop the confidence to make that vision into a reality. She is a coach in put on cook, become took land in present day Western Massachusetts next to a community farm with her 13 year old child and her partner. Her latest project is coaching for the collective, which is a coach training for social justice leaders. I love it and I probably totally mispronounced the land. You want to share. Put come to land. Yeah. Okay, so I want to start with, you know, in the in your bio you you talk about not just your bio like your focus is helping change makers social justice leaders heal from burnout and kind of get clarity about the next steps and manifesting that vision. Burnout is something I think, you know, I think some people watching this do think about it. But a lot of people don't adequately think about that and you have particularly a perspective about burnout that's kind of more intergenerational. Do you want to talk about that what's the kind of make that connection for us. Sure. So there's a lot of reasons why people burn out. And I often when we burn out that's for several reasons. When it comes to the intergenerational link. I a few years ago started studying methodology called family or systemic constellations. And as soon as I began studying that there was a pattern that I just started seeing over and over in my clients and have experienced in my own life. There's many, there's many patterns why we get burnt out like I said but one of them is pattern called parentification. When parent cannot be the parent of a child. Or they, they were not parented well it's like there's a vacuum that's created. So say there's a child here there's a level of the parent level of the grandparent. If the parents with the grandparent died prematurely or was not able to parent well, the child may kind of be sucked into that into that void or vacuum and take on the role of the parent of the parent, or if their parent is not able to parent them. Effectively for one reason or another, they may then also take on the role of parenting themselves or their siblings. And a lot of my clients come to me with patterns of overworking overdoing overachieving really wishing that they were bigger than they were. They are committed to confronting our our society's biggest problems and it can be very painful to you. It's like oh I wish I wish I could change the world of my own two hands I wish that I could, you know be far bigger than I am. And, and often by just recognizing that there's this this pattern in place and naming it, it can be really liberating to see that it's not this is like a small chunk of what I work with my clients on but that. I had mentioned that pattern to you and it's, you know, a lot of my clients are first, first children in the birth order that can also, you know, be take on that role of taking on the all the burdens with their own hands so just just recognizing that can be really liberating for people. Yeah, absolutely. I want to want to thank you for for sharing that because just having. Yeah, like you said that awareness and having someone to talk to about this and, and starting to notice oh okay so there is a reason that I continue to to fall into these patterns that people are working and bring out. And, and, of course you work with your clients on that and there's a way to move out of that mindset and find find healthier healthier ways of relating to the struggles that they're that they're, that they're working to resolve in the world and within themselves to. So, one of the things that. Yeah, so maybe one of, I mean, because you, you help your clients with clarity about career and leadership, etc. So what is one is one, what is one, like misconception or something that holds them back from from clarity have you noticed. So, one of the biggest misconceptions is that we get clear, and then we make it happen. And like, oh I need to figure this out on my own, and, and then I'll go take action you're you, you teach the opposite of that and I teach the opposite of that as well that clarity is an iterative emergent process and that we get clear by having conversations and listening to the information that that comes back and doing experiments and releasing every single action we take as a learning experiment and an investigation of gathering information. And so a huge part of what I help my clients with is to be in that process of taking conscious action so taking action but then also being conscious of what we're. That we're that we're taking so that they are as efficient as possible efficient in a good way of, you know, honoring our energy. And as efficient as possible and as conscious as possible so this relates back to, for example the parentification that one of the biggest reasons my clients get stuck. Is because of internal limiting beliefs or behaviors that are making it challenging to take action. And so if you can get that inner clarity and unstuck and take action clarity will emerge. Right. Yes, absolutely. I fully believe that as well. I'd love for you to walk us through you have this five step process right that that helping clients go from confused to clear about what's next in their work lives and I know it's you know there's a lot to the process and it's much more than we're able to discuss in a short conversation I wonder if give us some kind of map or overview can get a sense of it. Yeah. Yeah. So, for a long time, I articulated this as four steps and I recently added a fifth so I'm going to share the four steps and then both the final one that I've had recently. So, so let's imagine that when we're getting clear we're standing at a gate. So a gate is a moment of really big decision. Right, or like of a, what do I do now moment. So that can be as simple as what do I do with this hour of time that I have, or this can be what do I do with the rest of my life. Anytime that we're facing a big decision we can say that we're standing at a gate and the. I have actually written the manuscript that I'm in the process of publishing called when we're when you're standing at life's gate how to get clear about what's calling you next. So when we're standing at a gate facing a big decision. The first. And this is this is iterative right this is not necessarily linear but the first step that I will mention is preparing your lens. So to be able to understand what you need and what the world needs when you're standing at that gate and discern what is why it's action we need to be able to see clearly. So we need to be able to let go of heal the limiting beliefs and behaviors that are making it challenging to see you know imagine of dirty windshield we need to prepare the lens to be able to see clearly. The next step is getting the inside view or understanding what you really need. And before you go on I wonder what's like one action we do to prepare to kind of clean that lens it's like is there a common. So framing that that clients need or give us a little taste of what that means. Yeah, sure so the work that I do is really about developing habits or competencies we start the work articulating competency based outcomes. And that's where true changes yeah it's like developing the right habits. And so discerning your next step is all about choice, like being able to choose what step am I taking what step am I not taking. And we could wrap up many, many chapters of more in depth work, basically into a sentence, which is that when you are uncertain, or facing a big decision or feeling stuck to take these steps. But first we need to pause, sometimes it's a much longer pause sometimes it's a much shorter pause, but we need, we need to pause so that we're not in reactivity, right, so that we can the pauses the space in which we can choose. So first we pause. And then to embody the compassionate witness so that we're able to witness what is going on within us. So we have compassionate open minded place. Then we check in with what how are we feeling in our bodies, because it's through the body that our needs communicate. And that intuition communicates all of the information that we can have access to within ourselves is through a body so pause body the compassionate witness. Notice what you're feeling. Notice what you're thinking. And there's many practices for reframing. Yeah, no, just super helpful like that that makes that makes it very clear what you mean by clearing the lens because now we can. We can we're not making decisions out of choices out of anxiety or reactivity. Right, so noticing the stories we that you're telling yourself if you're like oh that story doesn't serve you what is actually happening and what story might serve you more. And then asking what do you need, what do you need in this moment. And if you keep coming back to pausing witnessing what do you feel what are you thinking what do you need that will inform every next step that you take. Yeah, beautifully described. So that's the first one is clearing the first. Yeah. And then it's understanding, imagining the life that you long for. I named this in different ways because different ways land for different people but imagining the life you long for which means getting the inside view which means understanding what you need and want so there's I see it as. There's many ingredients that could build a recipe and many possible recipes for a work life that is aligned with what you really long for. So, in that next step, you know really taking stock of what you what you want and need. And imagining lives that would potentially meet those needs. The third is gathering clarity or getting the outside view so that's understanding what the world needs and wants and so often it's another. I don't know misconception but it's a place that people get stuck that so often self work is very inward focused and is not listening to what the world needs and wants and is willing to pay for and really is longing for so that next step is about taking action, and through that action, gathering information building relationships and that's how we get clear and the fourth is crossing the threshold. So that's, you know, being with what it what do I, what am I, what is calling me what is what do I truly long to do. What's the voice of doubt saying and, and tending to the doubts within ourselves, and, and having the courage to take the next step. The fifth step that I recently just articulated is really necessary is creating a container. So whether that is an externally held container of a coaching, you know, coaching support or an accountability buddy or I know you use focus made I serve as a container like that. Yes, yes. Or it's really being very mindful about how we're setting aside time to to reflect to do the that introspection to take that action and we must have some type of container to hold this process. I love I love that and when you mentioned focus made I, I'm not sure I'd call it a container it's more just an accountability of showing up to do whatever I'm doing in this hour but I like this idea of like, like, like you're, you're saying this is a journey. And are you looking at it as such rather than just random choices. Right like that there's a, there's a cohesiveness to a direction. Yeah, something like that like, like riverbanks. Yeah, that's right. That's really good. I love this five step process framework journey that you you bring your clients through and I can see how helpful it is to have some like you guide them throughout these throughout these five steps so tell us tell tell us about some of the but when you say change maker and social justice leaders like give us some examples it could be, of course, I you want to keep your clients confidential but what might they be doing in their career. Maybe, maybe you know you could even tell us like someone might be working in this kind of environment right now or this kind of role, and then they'd love to, to, to move into this kind of role, like, what's that ideal transition you may give us one example of that. Yeah. So, clients might come to me. They're often in a leadership role in a, in a nonprofit often around social justice of some sort so I'm thinking racial justice said queer and trans rights, domestic violence. I'm thinking of people who are already in consulting roles. People who environmental justice educational advocacy, and they are often, they're usually asking the same. They see three potential paths. The paths would be, do I chart my own course do I start a consultancy of my own or become a, you know, independent thought leader of some sort, or do I take on another position and another organization, whether doing precisely the same work or doing something different, or do I am I able to heal from burnout and fall back in love with the work that I do and shift the dynamics of my current role so that I can stay where I am, but really enjoy myself and do it in a nourished way. And they don't know which of those paths is best for them. And, and through our work together they, they figure that out, and they get clear about that and and may take any of those three paths forward. That's beautiful thank you for sharing that those examples because that's that's very helpful to like, maybe I know somebody you know that that could use this work especially. You know your organization is called Center for callings and courage so the word calling is, you know, a significant idea and I like that word a lot as well. But it hasn't been used as much I think in recent decade let's say, but you have something you say it's the refusal of the call. Right like some people. They have some doubt, or lack of trusting themselves or trusting process so kind of talk about that what is what is the refusal of the call. And how do we, you know, maybe a few words about how do we get over that self doubt to move forward. Sure. Yeah, so I, I define a call as a longing to take on a new challenge, one which is typically usually greater than yourself. I don't follow Joseph Campbell's map to a T really at all but there is one piece of the map that I find it particularly helpful, which is that he articulated that when the hero gets the call first they receive the call, and then immediately after that there's a phase calls called the refusal of the call in which the the hero. It turns away from the game it's like I really scary I don't want to go there. What, yeah I don't want to go there and so sometimes that refusal the calls are really important place because we're not yet ready to cross to the gate we need to do really significant preparation sometimes for a day sometimes for many years. But other times we're in the refusal of the call we're really are ready, but there's a part of us ourselves called the voice of doubt, which is the part of ourselves that says yeah but what if, what if this happens what if that happens. And so often people either barrel through the voice of doubt and just charge through the game like I'm not going to, I shouldn't be afraid I shouldn't, or they don't really listen to it but they also just get stuck in the refusal of the call they just like, it's too much I can't deal with it. And stay stuck there. And what I find is that when we recognize Oh, I'm at the refusal of the call, and the voice of doubt is active when they can, when we turn and face, or sit down beside the voice of doubt and listen to what it's saying it needs. Stuckness, stuckness is an unmet need stuckness is a demonstration of enough unmet need. And so when we can sit down next to the part of ourselves that scared or stuck and say hey, I'm not running away from you I'm also not becoming you. I'm sitting beside you, and hearing what you need. So often people move so much. It's my work is such an honor, because I get to see people tend to their needs and move forward on their journeys. Thank you so much for sharing that so you're, I want to talk about your latest project it's coaching for the collective, which is a coach training for social justice leaders. Tell us anything you like about it. Sure. So, I've, this is, this is in the embryonic stage I'm planning to launch it at next spring. And so I'm really in a process of speaking with former clients current clients, friends, people who are, you know, who are social justice leaders I believe would really benefit from this so still, I'm in the emergence stage with this and getting clear by having conversations and taking experimenting with your following your own steps. I am. But I see that so often. One of the reasons why social justice movements are not as effective as we long for them to be. And one of the main reasons is that we, we, we don't know how to hold space for ourselves and each other. We are the work. There's a lot of grief there's a lot of rage. The work is really hard, the, the stakes are daunting. And without having the internal capacity to face the challenges that we face and become the people we need to become to rise to the calls of the moment. We, we get stuck as movements and we there's there's infighting there's internal strife, and we doesn't have to be that it doesn't have to be that way. And coaching is, I'm not necessarily training social justice leaders to become independent coaches outside of what they're already doing, although they may choose to do that that's kind of a bonus. But if they choose that path, or the certification would be a bonus. Really what I want to do is train social justice leaders to be effective leaders, and to have the skills of coaching so that they can hold space for themselves their comrades, their community members, their colleagues, and, and be as effective as they can possibly be. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. I think it's, yeah, because the cause is one thing, but then it's kind of like the ends and the means is like how we get there, which is really the relationships we have every day. And how we move those relationships forward, which moves policy forward, etc, etc. It's like, yeah, it's, it comes down to how we're able to move others and ourselves and to do it in a positive way that's just not not not burn out. Right. So this is great. Thank you. And so, if someone is interested in working with you. I understand you have a discovery session you want to talk a bit about that. Yeah, sure. So if someone's interested in working with me my website is calling is encouraged calm and they can set up a discovery session there so it's a one hour, really in depth assessment of what they're struggling with and what they're wanting. I'm really getting a clear sense if they're a good match for what I offer or if I would recommend something else so I ask a whole bunch of questions and get clear about really which path I would advocate for sometimes that's an invitation to work with me and sometimes that's something else so that every person that I initially work with those through that process. And it's a free session. It's free. It's free one hour. Yeah, it's very generous and I'm sure helpful because you bring the years of experience to help them kind of quickly diagnose based on that conversation seems like maybe this is the right path or that's the right path, or that's a good path to take the next action on clarity, etc. So thank you for that. And you also are active on social media, particularly Instagram, I will of course put the link in the notes of the video you also have a newsletter and email newsletter, and you have a free online week week long course on the orientation practice, seven steps to clarity so anyway that's all going to be in the link it's on your website so anything else you want to say maybe like final encouragement to your, the people that you love working with. I think the final thing and this isn't this. The final thing is that a no journey as a hero hero and whatever gender they take. Go it alone that after the refusal of the call, then the then the next step that Joseph Campbell named was he called that supernatural aid doesn't need to be supernatural we just need we need each other. And whoever that is even if it's your dog buddy. We need connection we need support we need allies and so whatever shape that manifests if that's going for a walk in nature if that is, if that is finding a coach if that is whatever whatever that is is that we need, we need support and no one is supposed to go this journey alone. So, I would say the process of coaching can can feel supernatural. Thank you so much Catherine for the work you do and how you do it. Thank you so much. Thank you.