 was after seven o'clock and I'll call the community of the whole Meaning to order and with that I'll ask for approval of minutes of the last meeting held May 8th, 2006 Motion a second I should call the roll before that Sorry about that Here Excuse Here with that all we have a motion a second to approve the minutes All in favor signify by saying aye Chair votes aye motion passed Is there any objections with moving public input ahead? Does any alderman have any objections? Because then I will I will move public input ahead and I would ask that we have a limit of three minutes per person and That we speak to what's on the agenda and same rules as counsel that the public be respectful to the alderman and And to the mayor and to the to the public and then alderman We are here to listen and we're not here to argue and then when you come up to the mic I would ask that you say your name and address so Anybody who would like to speak? Raise your hand. I'll acknowledge you and then you can come come to the mic Go ahead sir Chris Balasi 1125 Kentucky Avenue ready couple things that are concerned Last week we had a wonderful council meeting and Then all of a sudden things shifted the end of the week Chief Kirk had mentioned out of the lesser of two evils 23rd Street and City Hall would be 23rd Street would be better and everybody ran with it now. We're kind of shoving this down The taxpayers throw it again without a lot of information towards everybody We have a lot of new council people who haven't been here to get those informations now From a math standpoint, and I'm not the greatest mathematician in the world That's a lot of money over on 23rd Street Maybe as a council we should remember that Mrs. Klain Hoon has said it the other day you need information You guys need to educate yourselves on these situations Instead of trying to ram it down everybody's throat Now with that said Maybe giving back the government to the people is Time for referendum we have time November you want to break ground in April put five of the best sites on there what has been studied? Let the people vote for that let the people decide What's best for them not 16 people? That's all I need. Thank you Go ahead. I'm Mary's there for need us on 919, Wisconsin Avenue I would like to say that the North 23rd Street site is the best Possible site for the new police station. It's not the lesser of two evils It's the more positive site compared to this current one at City Hall If we put the police station at the current site It's short-sighted It's a short-term solution and it will short change the taxpayers Now I would like to say that the alderman are informed they have in their possession past Negotiations for the North 23rd Street site they have in their possession some of them do Marilyn Montemayor the statistics the financial facts on the parking lot on 7th and Penn Avenue They have a history of the Negotiations for the North 23rd Street site and all the financial facts attached to it There is no big mystery here We all had plenty of time to show our political activism and say our peace in the last two years So this is not an option for us to be Political activists over this issue. It's a choice between two sites Now you saw the police and the informational pickets you saw the people who supported them We are here to support police chief David Kirk and his force now. This is their time This is their facility. We're not going to play any more political games with this issue We're not going to stand on any street corners and we must stop Complaining I am sick and tired of people being uninformed and Thinking that we have to just keep going around in circles now This body politic the common counsel their intelligent people They have information at their disposal and now they have to make a decision between the inferior spot downtown Now the community bank owns from five to ten feet of the current garage and To demolish this area would disrupt the surrounding businesses. It would disrupt city business Police business, etc. Etc. So I say let's move to North 23rd Street Let's be very mindful of the taxpayer dollars that go into it an efficient facility With a wonderful big garage for sharing services can be built and the soil problems can be rectified By building a basement so it's not an impossible dream But it is chief David Kirk's dream Okay, well, thank you very much. It's an honor to speak with you and the viewers at home. Thank you. Thank you Would anybody else like to speak? Go ahead Bob with 3 717 Dillingham Avenue, Sheboygan. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to speak tonight. I guess uh, I Been watching this since 2004 The meetings with the county Between the city they dropped out Started looking at Sheridan Park Looked at the places We've spent the sanity of what 650 thousand dollars studying sites Finally they get to a vote and They picture it in sight We have an election The very first meeting after the election common council we sends that overrides it and And we sit for a couple months And I guess that's that's your prerogative You're a lot of elected officials in September Allam and Davis brings up that we need a site you got to get going So they vote they come back over here they vote I think there was five five sites on if I'm not mistaken. Maybe I am it could be more or less But the vote is 11 to 5 To build it right here Now my question is What change From September of last year till right now what changed? Less money more money a better deal What changed? We've got intelligent people who had voted 11 to 5 and now we're gonna overwrite them again Does that mean next month we do the same thing over again? That's ludicrous And I'll never say this site was the best To build a police station. I did not My personal opinion they let it go And thought it was kind of a joke or let it go for a while and now comes a 20 for 3rd street station And there's a political payback going on At the expense of the taxpayers of shabuigan And the county's gonna reap the harvest we talk about They they don't make land anymore That's why they voted down shared in part What about the parking lot? That's the land they they're not gonna make that anymore either that's land It's our land county's gonna have that pretty soon And I don't buy that $122,000 is what that's worth. It's worth a heck of a lot more So i'm just asking you at least Have an open mind And you can't just say Either 23rd street or nothing You've got the information Let's look at it There's got to be a better site Than here But it isn't 23rd street So thank you and I hope you vote your conscience Thank you Would anybody else like to speak tonight? Go ahead Gina steinhardt 1311 maryland avenue shabuigan Um, I was just looking through my notes from last year Last september We were at the same By um Pass where we couldn't nobody could make up their minds We voted or it was a committee of the whole meeting There was a vote on city hall and van der veer It was 11 to 3 to keep those two sites in the picture north 23rd street voted 9 to 5 to have them Get rid of it Um gene davis said it last year that we need to get this dead horse off the table You know, it's true. It's just Everybody keeps debating about north 23rd street The price of the lot itself since last year went up 200 000 The price of the parking lot Seems to keep going down every time I read it It doesn't matter who's saying it. It's like the press says it in one way Then it goes down lower and lower every time I think there's got to be a definite number here and there's some real questions about the number crunching Plus we have five thousand dollars A year that we're getting on rent and that parking lot Why are we giving it up? Just to get a piece of land on north 23rd street. This is city and county owned land anyway And if you guys are so far shared services as if you know, that's the more important thing than anything Then the county can share that land with us. Why do we have to pay them? Now it's up to over 500 000 for that land plus a parking lot Plus move their salt shed I mean, I give you all some um reports that we did last year Mr. Sabinash must have thought the reports were pretty good or pretty accurate in some ways because He did use some of our figures for his last report. I'm not saying I'm any expert far from it But if I can see the holes in these reports and I can see the discrepancies And I'm not paid to look at this or any kind of expert at any of this I would think that you business people who are much better at this than me Can see that there is not an apples to apples comparison here It is way off There's something wrong and we shouldn't be rushing into making a decision when there's numbers that don't make sense And this all these numbers aren't going to mean anything to anybody right now When they start making the police department there and start digging and find the contamination that one of the reports say is there We're going to have a couple million dollars extra to clean it up Who's going to be paying for it us taxpayers? I'm one that does not want to be paying for that I say let's go back to van der Waart or go back to whatever site that is better Chief Kirk only said North 23rd is better than city hall I know that he doesn't prefer that over van der Waart. He's told me so if you're really going by what the police say is the right thing You know get the rest of the story instead of just using one little piece that you pick out that you decide That's what you want to listen to because there's a lot more to this story and it's not Being everybody's not being honest. So Please think about these things before you make your decision. Thank you very much Thank you Is there anybody else I would like to speak tonight? Go ahead Don Koch 923 Dillingham Avenue I think 23rd street site is better than here. Anything is better than here. There just is no room Down here at city hall Building here is kind of a short term solution. We need something that's long term I don't understand the cost how the cost went up 200 000 from a year ago I think that needs to be renegotiated I understand part of the cost is replacing their salt shed There's the shared services. Why can't they share our salt shed that we spilt? down by the incinerator That would eliminate some of the costs I don't understand how the assessed Value on that parking lot went down in a year To me this seems like a sweetheart deal for the county I think 23rd street site is definitely better than here But the costs do need to be renegotiated. Thank you Thank you uh Sir in the black you wanted to speak Tom raffle 16 17 north 24th street Um, I didn't bring any notes or anything. I kind of wish I had now but um In sitting and listening to some of the people talk here. I really do find it Kind of disturbing because I do really live in that neighborhood And I'm just thinking as I look at all you people. I'm sure when you go home at night You do go to a relatively peaceful neighborhood What is planning in my area on 23rd street is not going to be a peaceful neighborhood If the police department gets in there, I have nothing against them believe me. We need one obviously I just think that there's a better site than 23rd street But if you put the county in there too, and then of course we're always talking about Municipal court That doesn't run from eight until five it runs practically anytime of day or night And so we have a disturbance with there As far as the the traffic situation I've yet to see anything done On a traffic study in that area superior avenue is horrendous already Uh, it's not a very, uh well maintained street So obviously Something is going to have to be done about that if the police department goes over there Um as far as location Uh for the police department, I think a terrible mistake was made on eliminating Sheridan park Half of that park would have been used for the police department and the other half Would have been used as a park For the number of people that I've seen in there since I started following this I would say you probably would only need About a 9 by 9 lot There's hardly anybody that ever uses that park and even after all that has been said about that park Still nobody goes there Cost wise We have a problem with understanding exactly what that parking lot is worth downtown on 7th and Penn I've heard anything from 122,000. I think it cost the city I'm not really sure but I'm I'm sure it was well over half a million dollars to even get that land We'd be losing revenue there for the parking meters Uh, but any rate, I think the value of that parking lot is probably more in the neighborhood of a million something Uh, not the 122,000 that we're hearing So and also the 23rd street site. We've heard of contamination problems. I've yet to see anybody come up with figures on a proposal for Checking that out to see exactly what the city would be getting into if they did take that deal So there's a lot of questions that are left, but my main concern is Uh, having the police department put in Uh, that particular area Obviously because of the traffic and the situation that it would bring Uh, I don't think it's a good idea sir. You're three minutes. Rob. I figured that so thank you very much. Thank you Anybody else want to speak tonight? Go ahead Carl Rigatti 919 Wisconsin Avenue A lot was said here tonight I am 423 23rd street because There is no room over here There is no room at all. There's no room for parking right now and it will not it will be last when the building is built another thing is If we're thinking about going into these old this old building here It's going to cost you more money than if you build on 23rd state because Once you start cutting off on the old building You're getting into a problem where the state is going to come in and say the one states down that down and that down It happened on the county I just happened to be on the on the board when we renewed the courthouse We started out with about a million and a half dollars and we wind up with about four and a quarter million dollars by the time you're done Yes, we're still having an old building I think I think we got a good Good 16 old humans here now that are thinking I think they know what they're doing And I just want to say I think you should build on 23rd street and I'm sure that we can negotiate with the county For peddly things, you know, I don't think it's that much And another thing is I don't see why why the noise on 23rd street. There's no houses If you go up on superior, you know, there's maybe three houses there Look it down town here Why don't they think it okay all the buildings we got is downtown here They go down 9th street 10th street 7th street 6th street You're gonna have a problem I'm for the 23rd street. Thank you Thank you, sir Is there anybody else who'd like to speak tonight? Anybody else Then we will move on with the agenda We will go with Which will not be item number 4 rc number 526 0506 by building use committee submitting the police department building in city house space List summaries from Zimmerman design group Alderman graph Thank you, mr. Chairman. I would move that the rc be accepted and And adopt it and we begin discussions on the on that motion in a second And um with the discussion I will ask uh Mr. Saban ash to To uh to give us his presentation Like I thought that would be kind of hard to read so I brought some handouts So for people who are interested if you could please pass these around Uh, let's see um We started on this project quite a while ago and part of the premise of the project was to determine Uh, how the project would fit on the the first site that we took a look at which was shared in park And then subsequently based on some re-evaluation of the premise of what was being studied We took a look at as part of a separate site study a series of five additional sites At that time, um through council action We focused on the city hall site and then subsequently we understand there's an interest in revisiting the 23rd street site So today, um As part of the evolution of the project I thought we'd just get us up to speed in terms of how big the project was and what the projected or anticipated construction costs are going to be So the handout that you have has some blue columns that are in the middle That's really where the project stood Back in 2005 there was a 2002 study that was initiated by by uh kimmy and stuben rock that had identified a project of about 68,000 square feet There was a subsequent spring time of 2005 study that was initiated by Engberg-Andersen moyer that's listed as the moyer reported about 80,000 square feet and and our work with the police department based on our experience And and feedback from the police department Had generated at that time an opinion that the project would be about 80,000 square feet Uh subsequent efforts to control costs and reduce the overall size of the project uh led to an independent program of the city hall and that has been completed to verify that the City hall functions have consolidated within this existing facility would indeed fit within the facility that's been validated Subsequently, there was an undercurrent of opinion that the police department was not as small as it could be while delivering The most services for the least construction dollars And therefore there was some consideration given to how big the police department project could be That generated as part of the review of the committee a project of about 68,000 little Greater than 68,000 But as part of the consideration for city hall site there was the opportunity to have some additional services Located within the existing or the proposed police department building to provide toilet facilities and the like for This building which would be cost prohibitive to provide as remodeled space We were more efficient and more effective at spending money on new toilet room and elevatering than we would be at at allocating that money within the existing facility So where we sort of stand today is a police department building that if it were located on the city hall site in terms of the green Area on the sheet of about 73,000 square feet And if we were looking at alternative sites namely a 23rd street site or any other site for that matter that would let us to Would allow us to do slab on grade construction Something in the order of 71,000 square feet if somebody said can you can you make it under 70? I'm sure that as part of the programming process and the design process We likely would find those economies of scale But in terms of the overall size Looking at something in the order of 70,000 square feet and in terms of the overall Usable area of the building when we're talking about how big a building is there's net square footage and there's gross square footage On the very right margin of 55,000 square foot net building generally speaking Most of the space is allocated within the proposed building are Building service functions for the police department, but there are also some vehicle service functions And those are enumerated and broken out separately So there are what we refer to as large spaces and building spaces to determine the ultimate size of the project Does anybody have any questions about The proposed size Hearing none we will go into We would currently see the project budget falling and I think this is a sheet that most of you will have seen If you've had the opportunity, thank you to Have been party to the project To this date and for those who are not I'll just go through it fairly quickly What we're trying to do is we're trying to project studies from 2002 as well as comparable building types into a 2007 2008 economic time frame And to do that, uh, we use comparable buildings buildings that have been recently bid As well as comparison data our means data is average cost of buildings like this that are representative of the quality of the project that we expect to have And we use that to determine a cost per square foot that cost per square foot Then becomes in some ways the basis for how big the project will be and what it'll ultimately cost And so as part of that consideration, we had offered up two We we believe to be comparable facilities One a project in jamesville and one a project in oak creek What we saw as part of that discovery effort was that we would expect to potentially see costs per square foot On the order of 160 at 180 dollars per square foot Um This is projected 2006 dollars So I I looked at where we are in terms of the construction schedule and said Boy, it would be really hard not to get into 2007 And then as we're all familiar with our own budgets, uh inflation has been a bit of a problem, especially in the construction industry where Um construction products have tended to become commodity driven and within a world market have have seen some fairly heady Uh And exponential increase in costs So as I I look at where we would tend to be now and and based on some of the information that we had looked at with With the committee we saw 160 to 180. I called 160 I think an optimistic number and 180 a conservative number Uh, but we would recommend that if we're now at the tail end of 2006 early 2007 We really focus on that 180 a square foot number and that will have some changes That will be identified as part of greater detail But that was I I think an appropriate cost given what we've seen in our market as well as the anticipated market that we'd see in the Sheboygan area as a whole And then secondarily there was an additional consideration of what would happen in the city hall building And so we again took that optimistic and conservative approach And seeing as we're probably into 2007 We'd probably tend to want to be a little more conservative than optimistic given what's again transpired in the construction market And so we would be advocates of using the more expensive costs to budget the project at this time I have another sheet That identifies how we would generate the construction cost Off of work not just using the unit costs And so as part of that basis and again as point of reference where we were in 2005 inflating to 2006 dollars Where we think we were in the beginning of this year and where we think we're forecasting toward at the toward the end of this year And um two things that are worthy of note One is the building got smaller So where we were at about 80,000 square feet now we're down to in the somewhere in the low 70s if not under 70,000 square feet That as we looked at where we were in terms of the optimistic and conservative approach If we looked at a 23rd street site as a hypothetical metering effort of comparing the two We would tend to say that we would again tend to take in that purple column the more The more conservative approach It's been a very difficult market to predict And we hate to go into a project. We'd rather turn money back over into the project to Um Go back into a budget go back into tax relief rather than looking for additional funds later on so we we prefer the conservative approach We had identified specific building components be they fleet or actual building construction And we look to optimize and reduce the cost of certain categories And so we begin to find is a more blended approach that identifies some of the specific characteristics that we would see as part of the building And does so in a way that tends to reduce the overall cost per square foot So um looking at sort of where we were in 2005 optimistic and conservative somewhere around 145 dollars to about 165 dollars We think that the cost per square foot of a project on a relatively flat site represented by 23rd street would be about 150 dollars a Score foot that's optimistically better than where we were in terms of the 180 160 I think that's partially driven by the opportunity to have a simpler Parking structure associated with the project more economical parking structure than what we might see elsewhere And it compares generally favorably with other opinions of construction cost We saw the shared and pike the shared and park site probably stout by uh, angberg-anderson moyer at 195 dollars and the 23rd at about 162 We saw the kimmy report identifying a 2004 construction value of about 130 dollars a square foot that went inflated to 2006 2007 is about 147 dollars a square foot So we feel as though even though we've operated somewhat autonomous live our peers our peers are looking at the same data that we have and they've come up with a pretty close approximation that lends us to Have credence that what we have is a realistic budget for the project magnitude that we've identified as well as A realistic budget to go ahead with And then secondarily at the very bottom of the shoe we had identified magnitude of project for city hall And always acknowledging that the city hall was intended to fit within a budget It's uh, it's something that we would address as the design of city hall were to proceed Right now Hypothetically if the project For city hall was to be delayed. We sort of divorced those in our budgeting So we said well what happens if they go independently rather than consolidated And so that drove the very last sheet Which attempts to take a look at basically the overall project cost aside from construction Uh, that one might expect to see on a project of this magnitude And so when we're considering construction cost We also have to consider everything else that goes into acquiring a project including furniture including land acquisition and other issues related to How we get from point a to point b What it does tend to identify as a project of this magnitude is substantial and worthy of continued debate That we think we would probably see some economy of scale in combining the two projects But knowing that budgets are real and and realistic and problems for everyone that the opportunity would be to divorce the two projects if necessary That the cost if we did so would be in the order of 1.3 million dollars Hypothetically to divorce those and run the city hall project out into a 2008 2009 bid frame um, and that a police department project on Not necessarily 23rd street, uh, but any Flat site that's not an urban site would probably have some construction value That would be returned to the taxpayers in terms of a reduced size of project construction budget It's not a substantial number, but it is it is still a more economical Uh construction typology largely because we don't have to deal with elevators and stairs and things of that nature Lastly If we're to consider where we are now and where we would like to go in terms of timelines And and I apologize this one might be a little hard to read But where we were in the spring of this year was we're expecting to start on a design process in april and may of this time frame Clearly, we haven't done that a 23rd or other site and a city hall site. I think would run um Simultaneously, uh, there would be very little uh impact in terms of delivery Regardless of the sites along as the site were available Where we really start to see potential impacts on the schedule is depending on what would happen with the city hall site Um issues related to how the construction is sequenced Timing that the contractor can get access to the site start to extend the construction schedule And that's why you start to see increases in in construction costs as the project continues out into subsequent years 2008 2009 So we would generally say that the 23rd street site if it were available or any other site that's readily available would generally get you the project quicker Um by getting it you getting you into the project quicker You're probably going to save money in the long run even if it's not directly enumerated So I think any site that's readily accessible is a valuable site in that regard Um, but in terms of this time frame, we'd be probably looking at a spring of 2007 bid phase If you elected to divorce the pd site and the city hall site, we could potentially gear up to achieve both at the same time But what you'd probably see is you'd lose sort of that macro economy a scale that you had when both projects were located on this site I I think if you move off this site with the pd You're probably also going to lose some of those macro kind of scales that you'll look at redundant job trailers redundant project managers and field supervision that Would be probably ideal given the two projects being proximate to one another and but that may not be an important issue to you so I guess in terms of recap we'd be looking at a spring of 2007 start Inflation worries everybody including myself. It's a very difficult market to predict We've seen that volatility present for quite some time now over the past year and a half or so at least And so I would tend to say that if it's possible the quicker you can move the better off you are But given the magnitude of the decision that has to be made that that has to be weighed as well We don't want to do something harsh without considering the importance of the decision so That's currently where I think the timeline is I think the budget is and I think the magnitude of the project is Do the alderman have any questions for mr. Sabin ash? Alderman montemar Um, thank you. Alderman banduel. Um, thank you, mr. Sabin ash. Um, I understood what you were saying So, uh, thank you again. I'm glad you're doing all this good work Certainly glad you know exactly what you're doing. I appreciate that a lot Any other alderman and I guess maybe just in This is the hardest part for any community what you're going through right now is the most difficult Part of the decision it's where it goes and how much it's going to cost those are very very very trying decisions and you're not alone In going through the efforts that you're going through Alderman born Thank you, mr. Chairman Just so I'm crystal clear on this and also for the people at home Then for the police department if we do this in 2007 you're estimating then that it's going to be $1 per square foot. Yes And then the city hall The city hall component would be 97 62 per square foot Yes, but uh acknowledging that the city hall funding might be different. There's always an opportunity to work back I would tend to say that what would probably happen is you'd end up with a bigger laundry list And you'd pick and prioritize a little bit more If you said that financing was fixed It was a hard cap then you'd you'd go through a more strenuous process of prioritizing Okay One other thing I wanted to bring up. I had the I had a tour of the New fire department over on south 18th street and I was I was impressed with it and the thing that kind of impressed me that It looked like it's a very functional building But it looked like for example when they were doing counters they used for mica They used a lot of carpeting where carpeting was appropriate and I guess my question is When we're talking about furnishing, I guess that would fall under furnishings or finishings of the building Uh, I would like to maybe it's already been taken under consideration But I guess you can get sick of uh A color of for mica three times for what it would cost you to put in quarry and or marble to begin with And the same thing could be said for for carpeting rather than putting in a fancier floor So I hope those economies are taken into consideration Not that I want to nickel and dime the the the police department, but I think those are very important considerations I guess that's all for right now. Maybe if you'd like to comment on that the Cost per score foot that's generated is again, it's comparable to what other communities have done I I would tend to say that Most of the communities in wisconsin I mean I go back to the cost per score foot relative to the means data We're below the 50 percentile in the national average as a comparison in our budget currently so Acknowledging that they do some things in california that that cost a little more and the coasts send a cost more I think we've put together a budget that is representative. It identifies commercial grade products largely Um, but does so in a way that this is not an opulent Cost per score foot building that we've established here Thank you, mr. Chairman want to follow up The uh Getting back to uh In in other cities where they built police departments like for furnishers and fixtures Uh I realized some of the stuff probably in the police department is old, but some of it also has a lot of character It's a traditional that when when a when a city builds a police department that they kind of do an inventory Of existing furniture what what could be used again in the new facility rather than buying all new furniture And again, I'm not trying to nickel and dime the project But if some of the stuff is still functional, let's say for example a conference room table Rather than buying a new one Carry it over to the to the new to the new police department. What's usually done in that regard? Uh, almost everybody has to take something with them It it's usually most of the time budgets And furniture is a is an extraordinarily good example of the array of costs You can spend 10 000 dollars on a desk or 150 dollars and um Cost and furniture tends to have wide ranges in it again I would tend to say that what we've done is we've used Again our comparables so people that have done things um That's the way we established the budget And everybody that we compared it to usually brought some stuff over and it may not even be things that are Are simply serviceable because of character or other requirements Or maybe some things that the police department currently has in terms of Store systems and the like that there is no replacement for So when we get into card systems and fingerprint filing systems and things of that nature Uh, sometimes we have to take over what's there because we can't replicate And so that might just be something that gets painted Alderman sushia Thank you, mr. Chair I'm very glad that you put all these numbers together for us. I guess i'm just having some trouble following Some of the the sheets and one in particulars Is this one here? and I'm wondering if you could just walk us through i believe the option a and option b is the optimistic conservative On the previous sheets the green represented city hall and the purple was 23rd street Did you flip-flop the colors? No option a and option b were some of the earlier Efforts and what we're trying to do when we do something like this is give you an heck of a gauge Or we started and where we've gone to The green on here is the information that was presented to the committee back in uh, april of this year and then the purple is Effectively what we had i anticipated for the cost of new police department facility off-site if if uh city hall was maintained Then you'd be looking at the green column If police department moved elsewhere onto a relatively flat site 23rd or other Then we'd be looking at the purple column and the very far right purple column is what i said city hall Dissociated if you don't do the projects at the same time What happens to the city hall costs relative to the macro of having a major construction project proximate to this building And what happens is that if you build next to this building with city hall you get the advantage of having that big project with one contractor And the far right column is if we bid city hall out later what happens to that cost So if you said that's too rich for my blood to do city hall I'm going to do a police department on a relatively flat site like 23rd or something else We'd be looking at that construction value of 10.734, which I think is identical to the previous sheets We've seen for construction cost And then what we're just testing is what happens to the city hall project again If they happen at a different time or if the site becomes A site that has more than one project on it versus Something that doesn't To answer your question to a certain extent, I guess i'm in the slow group tonight Bottom line if we build a police station behind city hall What would that be versus if we build it at 23rd street and when you give us the price at 23rd street Does that also include the acquisition acquisition building acquisition on all of these is zero So whatever building acquisition is needs to be identified as part of the budget So for all of these depending on how the site is configured what site it is You know a four acre site somewhere else might not be the order of magnitude of what we're talking about So it's zero has to be Allocated into the budget and if the budget is finite then other categories of the budget have to be adjusted accordingly Where we are in terms of the project for the police department is if we're going to take the less optimistic It's about 10.1 million dollars on this site And about 10.7 million on on 73rd or 23rd, excuse me But part of that is driven by score footage. I Need to identify that with the 23rd street site and the city hall site are evolving. So We view them as fairly comparable construction cost sites There was no three million dollar home run by moving to 23rd street or something like that We view them again as fairly comparable in construction cost All the women quite good Thank you chairman Can I just ask on the page that you have danesville police department dan oak creek police department? The size of their buildings Danesville is quite a bit smaller You're using to compare those Is a police force smaller there than our police force or do they share services with a county or How come they they have a really small building. They have they have a really small building. We have 30,500 square feet Right, and they have some garage space that's maintained across the street, but largely And and there are other functions that aren't present within danesville project too So it's a smaller project because it's a smaller building and that was a mandate of the city council Okay Generally, but I would generally say that the biggest program differentiator between yours And there's our things like vehicle maintenance the size of the garage And other factors that danesville simply doesn't have they don't have vehicle maintenance, but we have vehicle maintenance currently in our program Okay, so that's that takes up a lot of space vehicle maintenance. It all adds up Yeah, and storing of vehicles as well. Our garage is substantially larger than danesville. Correct. Okay, and the oak creek Same same differences Some similarities some differences smaller agency about half the size in terms of population base, so we have a smaller agency Well, we liked about it as a comparison. It's a single story slab on grade danesville is a multi-story building So it gives us a gauge for what? Slab on grade construction is costing relative to multi-story But generally speaking A different agency a smaller agency has a courtroom Has a range The oak creek. Yeah, okay So some features there are again replicated here and some are not communications Thank you Thank you. Do any other alderman have any questions or comments? Alderman brahassel. Thank you You did a very good job laying out a lot of the hard numbers I do have some questions. I guess on some I guess I'd call them intangibles and that being safety and workplace efficiency Could you compare the two sites perhaps? I think there was some discussion Year and three months ago when this was being compared And they talked about being a little safer not having prisoners going up and down elevators up and downstairs And being more workplace efficient because everybody's on one level. Could you maybe speak to that? Let's start with the safety of persons in custody At the time that there was a whole lot of discussion going about relative to our peers There was a substantial amount of discussion about how the building design in a multi-level scenario would work in that regard And we don't we fundamentally don't have any problem thinking that A multi-story building is a foregone conclusion that it's a failure I think certain sites are better for that scenario But we had never been proponents of having the lock up at a different level than the majority of the building The things that we were looking at putting at another level were parking evidence and other features that are generally Infrequently accessed by most of the officers on duty. So in terms of multiple levels, I think that there is probably a good solid Efficient scenario that can be realized in a multiple level scheme You're not really of the size where You get to the point where when you're at about 120,000 square feet when you go to multiple levels You actually have efficiencies, but there's a perception of efficiency that's tied into elevating and stairs That I can actually show you you probably walk farther slab on grade at 120,000 square feet Then you do if you walked up and down a stair, but the perception is that you're less efficient Um, I think the thing that probably drives me Closest to saying any scenario other than a multi-story is simply the cost of construction that it gives us more opportunity to control that It's generally a more uh more efficient more economical way of building And therefore whenever we have the opportunity to do that it tends to have an end result. That's more economical I can't say that unilaterally every building design is different, but um If you had 40 acres out and back here, that would be wonderful That's just not the physical reality of what we have to deal with on this site. So we would be looking at multiple stories um A 23rd street site if I remember we haven't done we have not done any significant consideration outside But it's not a huge site either. I mean it's bigger than what we have here But if I remember correctly there were some concerns about The overall size of that project relating to storm water and other features that would have to be incorporated there So but it's a it's a probably a site that gives us a lot of design latitude And it is certainly I certainly have an affinity for slab on grade these days because of the nature of the cost of construction If I start going up it starts to cost more to that Yes, thanks President bird Yes, I think it was chairman parking is certainly a consideration I didn't see parking particularly factored into your equation here. I think earlier studies have suggested Need for spaces in excess of 100 parking spaces to serve municipal court, etc Could you and again parking may not be part of the per se building construction? But it's part of the larger campus and footprint. Could you please address parking here versus at 23rd street? Well, when we did the site analysis we had identified that additional properties would have to be acquired we tend to believe that the And there's been some continued discussion about the nature of and the need for police department parking In a secure environment meaning associated with a building enclosed in some way shape or form We actually favor this site in our regard because I think we can get fairly economical parking of a fairly stout type underneath the building And that would generally accommodate most of the police department parking needs What it doesn't account for is the offset and I think we had identified It was like a million and a half dollars that we might have to spend to acquire Additional parcels and recreate parking that was part of the consideration for this site relative to the others But I'd ask you to maybe take a look at the report I don't I don't have that with me But we would acknowledge that the site costs are very unique And if you had an affinity for one site versus another we maybe just take a hard look at what those Other project costs are that are going to be realistic and part of the budget and deal with them now Thank you Alderman susha Thank you, mr. Chairman Just going back to the numbers. It looks like you're saying if we go to 23rd street We'd be looking at maybe 10.7 million plus 500 000 for the Acquisition costs that bring us up to 11.2 million And I know that as alderman we don't have a lot of interaction with you And I just want to make it clear that on behalf of my constituents 11.2 million is way too high I'm not sure if you're aware that the county has recently repaired their shooting range And I don't think that we would need to put in a shooting range in the new building The shared service committee is going to start meeting real soon And I think before we break ground we really need to hammer out Exactly what the county is going to do for the city and what the city is going to do for the county We've got to get this cost down just this past week All the citizens are should avoid and receive new tax assessments My phone's been ringing off the hook. My emails have been clogging up the system. I think The taxes here are too high People are complaining to me anywhere from $200 increase to $4,000 increase a year We've got to do something to bring it down. I think everybody agrees. We need to build a new police station But on behalf of my constituents, I need to convey very strongly to you. This price is way too high So please keep that in mind and be nice the next time you come in if you gave us a pie in the sky And ultra conservative give us the generic rundown of what we could get at the least amount of money to the taxpayers Because it would be I think beneficial to see both ends of the spectrum. Thank you Alderman rehassle Thank you I just need a little more help by following up on alderman clayhunis's question regarding the comparison between janesville and shabuagan Having lived in that area. I believe janesville is about 30 bigger than shabuagan population wise It's about 65 to 70 000 What I know, can I assume the police department? It's about it's in the 60s. Yes Can I assume that police department staffing is proportionately? Bigger than as well Would that be a fair assumption? I don't remember what their command staff Is allocated at but uh, I would view them as pretty comparable in terms of allocation And I guess I wasn't my question as much as I believe janesville is 30 500 square feet By your numbers, yes, correct. Okay, and you're you're planning 70 000 for shabuagan, correct? Correct Okay, so is the vehicle maintenance the lion's share of that difference 40 000 square feet? No, it's also building and other program functions There are other there are other overriding categories in there that it's not just vehicle maintenance. There are other Larger allocations of space in this project than there were at janesville Could you point out the big ones just for my own? I can give you the information I can't I can't do it at the top of my off the top of my head But like we have communications allocated or janesville does not We have a more substantial booking process than janesville has allocated we have more Substantial evidentiary storage than janesville has bigger garage Vehicle maintenance those are the things that come to the top of my head, but Janesville did what they did that doesn't necessarily mean that it satisfied everybody's needs It's what they built and you may find yourselves in the same position Ultimately you have to build what you can afford Um, I I would have a harder time as we get I mean we already cut About 10,000 square feet out of the project from where we thought it needed to be to satisfy the program goal Which was something out in the future the more you cut the more you dig into that that goal And so it's not as though people haven't done it that doesn't mean that if you can avoid doing it You don't try to avoid doing it I mean space is finite and If you build it you have it if you don't you don't It's like the fourth bedroom you want to have when you have the two kids, right? It's I want to get them each in an old bedroom. Sometimes you can sometimes you can't They they cut it back to whatever they thought they needed it to be to fulfill their budget goal Thank you Alderman graph Thank you, mr. Chairman Looking at your your proposed project schedule You're calling for some time in june to um Sign off on on the program for the police department Is that correct it looked like it was the beginning of june Now is that we've done some work to get it to smaller a smaller scale And I think we would be in if the in the perfect world if you said today boy, let's just get going We'd be working mostly in the month of june to validate that the program was correct That is as big as it needs to be you're as small as it needs to be And we would be getting geared up getting our consultants back online and getting schedules aligned to start in july July To start construction in july. No, no design design. Okay. What is your drop-edge date for Where we want to build this station If we want to maintain a january or very early spring construction or I know where you're going Some things in the schedule and maybe some just some I guess follow-up on maybe some of the architectural nomenclature that if you haven't been part of the building committee or if you haven't Heard us talk about what would happen in the project I'll just try to identify it as quickly as I can and as succinctly as I can When we refer to schematic design we're talking about putting pieces in place on paper That can be adjusted really rapidly and will impact how things relate to one another And that's really that first bar that you see It's the part where things are Exceptionally fluid and I had basically two months in for schematic design. That's august and september. I don't think you can cut that much We've done some work to date, but You know putting the things in place where we can adapt them takes time. It takes effort and it takes feedback We had two months following in october november for design development That's the time when the engineers come in and they tell us what we can and we can't do It will define how big the generator needs to be what kind of air And quantity of air changes happen within the building whether we have a boiler system or not helping the Stormwater management feature needs to be how big the pipe is that ties the building together into a main system And that took us basically through the end of november now november and december is kind of a it's a fluid month It's hard to get meetings people are in people around a lot of vacations So it's sort of a time when things are it's a good time to stop Think collect your thoughts and then move ahead and then we had basically we're saying four months But realistically january february march for construction documents. That's the time where we put together the big project manual and the big role of drawings You don't want to cut short that time That's the time when things that need to be considered are considered fully by the people who are working on the project They're documenting it so that the contractor has a a clear understanding of the scope of work. So that took us to march If you said I don't know Can I go to august? Yeah If I knew to start up in august and I can get my guys geared up to start in august It doesn't have any impact on the schedule. That's why I had that start up in pd program timeframe at the beginning But it really starts to probably have an impact the further out you go I think past that you start to move further and further into the spring time And if you remember where we were initially we were saying well, it'd be really nice to get out in december where we get that Um get that opportunity to have contractors fill in their workload You're not out of that window in march. They're going to be aware of that project They're going to be aware of the magnitude of the project But I don't really want to go april may I'd like to try to get that thing going in the ground and getting started up in March april so that uh when we start digging a hole We're digging it in a good time in the spring. We can get enclosure And finish the project up ideally in a year Thank you Thank you Any other alderman Have any questions President So thank you mr. Chairman. I think One of the things that it's difficult to comprehend Is a bottom line cost for all the sites And I think that's certainly I think I we can see clearly what construction costs are for the two sites But we have acquisition costs. We have costs of Parking etc and also the possibility I guess of expansion. So I guess I would be interested perhaps From staff And I believe mayor you had been also involved in some negotiations with the the county is when might we be able to expect the side-by-side cost Of both sites factoring in if all the hard and soft costs including acquisition parking etc Anybody Perhaps Mr. Gephardt if Given your financial Person, have you got any thoughts on just a process? How long it would take to pull really a cost figure together given we have a basis to start in terms of the construction part Also operational costs if you would because there will be a difference between the two sites Boy operational is going to be hard to figure but in in terms of the I guess if one was to think about a methodology if you knew what 23rd street site cost you could actually plug it into the matrix and it would it would have a present value If you knew what other sites cost doesn't limit yourself to 23rd If you knew what other sites cost you could also plug that in in terms of land acquisition I mean most of the other project costs have been enumerated. There are actually I think nine or ten pages Of a checklist that we use to verify that we haven't missed anything and that Expectations for project overall magnitude have been met One thing we really don't know because we really don't have a site is what those sites are But if so if you were looking at one or two sites, it really wouldn't be too difficult to Plug a value in and then work back from there to validate whether a budget adjustment needed to be made somewhere else Operation that's going to be a tough one You know I'll have to be Depended on mr. Sabin ash I think in a lot of those cost figures as far as the different sites and and how to put those together And I think we'll be turning you know for his guidance as we go through the process with our committees capital improvements and And through the whole process You know from my standpoint You know, I guess I obviously the operational costs are very important. We'll need to to know that I guess we have to look at the timeline when the building is open Whether or not we need to have additional janitors and so forth for the building But I guess initially here obviously we're looking at the total financing cost And what impact that's going to have on our interest expense in the 2007 budget And what we'll be looking at Especially as we approach this with declining revenues For 2007 what impact that's going to have on operations And that's I think it's going to be at a future meeting, but probably it's too much in depth for this meeting But I think you know as far as the detail one site against another Uh, I guess I really have to turn to mr. Sabin ash to guide us on on that difference on on that obviously the acquisition We'll have to work with the county on the 23rd 33rd street site For that Obviously if you can keep it to a couple sites the answer is a lot easier The the more complex the sites become the more difficult it is to make an assessment So if you were as an example looking at this site and any other site We could probably come up with a A rationale working with staff that would have the the project cost Enumerating all of those variables fairly quickly Just a follow-up question The you say the site cost is known here yet In earlier parking study noted that between 230 and 330 p.m Total staff povs, which would be the shift change time would be 73 vehicles Would you say that the city hall site? With the build out and I guess just your knowledge of the density in in downtown shabuigan Just any observation you might have on parking it It would be would it be reasonable as part of the city hall construction to begin to acquire Either through routine ways or through condemnation the extra parking space for not only the The the staff but also the visitors that we could expect and I believe that They had accorded about 22 sites for visitor in the study that I have which was I believe that was the original stuben rock study Parking that's acquired that's already parking is generally fairly economical Parking that's acquired that is something else currently like everybody knows if it's a building It's very costly to take it down and then make it into a parking space So if The methodology was in place and parking was available that was readily available as parking I think you'd find that the costs would become more manageable The more sites that we take a look at that are largely something else now you're going to see those costs escalate And it's simple math if you have a flat site somewhere that has nothing on it It's easy to build parking if you have a site somewhere that has something on it costs go up So any other questions from mr. Sabin ash Then I thank you for the presentation I'm moving on under discussion I'm Moving on with discussion regarding the alternates site for location in the police department with north 23rd street or Alderman gruff you have a motion on the floor. I believe that we have to vote on And that was that the rcb accepted and filed right We will we'll vote on that motion in a second alderman serda had something to say And we can't find her mike so Just for clarity purposes, and I don't I don't know if it's relevant at this time In order to accept and adopt this We are actually We're just accepting the information which was given to us, correct? Okay The information that was sent to you from our building use committee, which was the the original Document I think there were two documents attached to the To that rc itself There was everything that building use had up to that point because one of the The building use committee wanted to make sure that the rest of the council had all the information That the building use had discussed up to that point in time So that's why we sent this to the committee of the whole while we sent it to the council We sent it to the committee of the whole so I have I have a document 2583 Do you have another document? I Was that all included It was a a thicker booklet that was photo. Oh, okay. That's it. Yeah, all right So we have a motion on the floor to To file a second to accept the information To accept and adopt the information Do we need a roll call vote? We'll we'll just go with the majority all in favor signify by saying aye. Aye Chair votes aye motion passes Okay, then we'll move on the agenda With a discussion regarding alternate site for location of the police department Specifically north 23rd street Um, mayor prez. Did you have something to say? How about that? Could you please this is the discussion? Thank you, mr. chairman this the discussion regarding the Proposed consideration for the 23rd location Okay If I may thank you Chief Kirk and I met in my office briefly on some other matters and the discussion Just sort of popped up about the new police station that we're building And we this has not been the first time we that the discussion pops out because we talk about it quite a lot We want to make sure that Our timeline is is kept in place But somewhere the thought just rose is now that we're really moving forward the timeline is really on on on on track Is the current location? The best location or is there a better location? And it turned out that chief kirk and I both agreed that given this choice in the 23rd location Which at one point I believe this this location in 23rd was first and second choices Had given those two choices that perhaps the 23rd location would be better than here As you know, I was always in favor of the 23rd location uh, I I told chief kirk that I would not move in that direction because I I am not for opening a full-blown search for another police site Uh that process has been lengthy Has been very contentious It's divided the community every time we look at it and I didn't I simply didn't want to go there anymore The council albeit maybe not this council, but the council has already made a decision And that decision is the police station is going to be built on the north side of the building And that's yeah, that's north. I was a little track here on the north side of the building I'm perfectly content with that because We need to provide our police officers with the facility that they need to do their job And then do it In a way that is professional and very accommodated to them But again, the issue was is the 23rd a better location than this and Both chief kirk and I and I think I can say this that we both agreed that given those two choices The 23rd site would be better So long as So long as the timetable was not disrupted So long as we don't throw keep throwing things in there That's going to delay this thing and derail the whole process and start all start all the contention all over again And the device that shows the community And that's where we were then we met briefly with the Adam Payne mr. Adam Payne from the county the county administrator And chairman bill gehran from the county board of supervisors And just simply ask is there a possibility To reconsider 23rd street and the response of the meeting did not take long Quite brief. The response was Sure make us an offer At that point the building news committee met discussed it. There was a motion made and I believe that's what you're going to discuss now And that's what's before you But again, I think it's very important that You know, there's been a lot of talk about when something like this happens It's very understandable for people to get excited Sometimes in a good way sometimes in a bad way But it's very it's perfectly normal and healthy to get excited about this I got excited because it opened up a new opportunity to perhaps build on the flatter side provide more opportunity For shared services while at the same time balancing that with the people's pleas For for last taxes and how do we go about balancing their needs and And providing more shared services I thought it was a great a great way to be responsive to the community and say We're going to build at a better site. They will give you a better bang for your buck So that's that's where we're at now and I for one, I'll make it perfectly clear again I do not want the whole process to be derailed. We're going to build a police station We're going to build a new police station and it will be built in 07. We will break running 07 and I hope I say that Hoping that I have the support of the common council and that I have the support of the city officials So that's where we're at now and the building news met and they've got a resolution They've made a motion and that's where we're at now. I don't know if chief Kirk would like to add anything to it Thank you. Go ahead chief I would have to Say pretty much what the mayor has stated here is is absolutely accurate. We did meet We talked about the the size of the the police department site I have been concerned about the the size Of this site. We've talked about this as we looked at the two options 23rd street is the better option. I have not received one Negative comment from my employees on this move In fact during the time from September until just recently I've had numerous conversations with our employees about the city hall site. They were concerned. I was concerned But we wished uh I can recall how the conversation began because As we had our discussion on act 40 I've said Mary you have Spoke repeatedly that this timeline is firm If you can recall I spoke uh to the media saying I'm not sure if the timeline will be kept If you in fact are looking at 40, I can't believe the timeline would remain a firm Um at that conversation or discussion with the mayor. He indicates that the timeline is firm. We are building We are building in early 2007 and at that time we discussed the concerns for this site and Given the two two sites if if those are the only two sites on the table 23rd street is a better site Thank you On the win graph Thank you, mr. Chairman Each of you on on your desk this evening Have a copy of a resolution that was drafted at building use committee when they met last thursday evening And this was put together after A fairly lengthy discussion With building use and it states some some figures Regarding what what we thought was a proposal Or what we thought could be a proposal To the county and it basically comes down to a net amount of 500 and 4,866 Dollars for the 23rd street location that being said it was also requested that Adam pain would be here tonight to answer any questions that that that may be Stated but he had another scheduling Conflict for this evening and therefore is there But he did say that if any of the older persons or even citizens Have a question and would like to contact Him directly that would be fine His number is um You can obtain that by calling 3103. I believe or 459 3103 is is his office number And then finally he said that In his email to me was that um Chairman garing as well as uh himself and and the mayor and police chief had met And did state that north 23rd and they did state that north 23rd street site Land was still available and that county board chairman is open To the county board receiving an offer from the common council and um that was The midst of the discussion and and that was one of the reasons why this this resolution was drafted This resolution could not be sent directly to The committee of the whole it has to go to council And it's going to council on monday night So this document will be before you on monday night part of the um Part of the discussion was well can the committee of the whole Also do a resolution if they so choose to do and I think they can as long as it would um Look at least something like this to make the city an offer Excuse me to make the county an offer We we've got A short period of time if we're going to do this Because the county board only meets Once a month their next meeting I believe is like the 21st of um Of june and then they would not meet again until july um Whatever the third tuesday is unless a special meeting were called and I don't know if if the county board does that but um Those are um some of the reasons why the building use committee submitted this to council and like I said it would be um On the agenda for a monday meeting uh the 19th of june Thank you Oliver davis Thank you. Mr. Chairman What did this council miss when we had our when we had our meeting and when we picked the city all site Now several months later We're we're backing up and we had a pretty pretty large majority of both there to pick city hall There's nothing that's changed nothing has changed since then You want to you want to give a site you want to give a parking lot away For $122,000 in this year property. What's the value of that property? I think it's considerably more than that You know, we made a responsible decision here Uh, I work in a rather large division a core company And I was accosted a couple of times uh within the last several days You know, what are you people doing? Can't you make a decision and stick by it? You know, we back up on everything in here, you know, we get new council members in here Uh from the election and now we're backing up on a decision for the city hall We can put a good pd next door here and we can get it within budget You know, it's just a matter of what we want to pay for in that building It won't be that big of a footprint there or a square footage if we want to get it within the The budget that we want to pay for here And it's time to it's it's time to make a decision here I'm not for this We made a we made a responsible decision and we'll get a pd built there For the budget that we want And at a less cost to the taxpayer It's just that We're paid and we're elected to be up here and make decisions. We made one And it was a good one And I stand by it Thank you Alderman sir, I don't know. Okay. This is on I just wanted to address um alderman davis that I had made a promise when you had taken that last and final vote That I would not revisit the issue that I would support my teammates and that I would move forward But I'm only speaking on this issue now and giving my two cents concerning 23rd because it is before me So for that I apologize. I did respect your decision um If anything I got to thank mr. Sabanash because over and over again I'm reminded of the movie field of dreams if you build it they will come And he has re reiterated to us that he will not choose our site for us He will provide us with the information Give us um any type of concerns that we might um run into But he has kept his integrity that way that we are the ones that will be making this decision Um, I am somewhat concerned that I have received this resolution just this evening and haven't even had a chance to read through it Thoroughly, but yet I'm expected Um because of the timeline To the county that I have to make a decision tonight. I have some Okay, and then maybe you could clarify alderman graff if I misinterpreted that Um, I do have some concerns about um, and it was it was discussed earlier tonight to regarding the numbers What has changed alderman davis had said? When I had heard that the 23rd street site had come back on the table Um, I view it as the lesser of two evils if anything Um, it really validated me concerning my vote that I had gave concerning city hall. I did not support it I've always said that I felt that it was like pouring new wine into old wineskins This this building itself is bursting from the seams Um, and I felt that it would be a long-term headache for many years to come if we built it here So in that respect, thank you for validating my vote. Um, however, what has changed? I was surprised and and initially somewhat excited to think that maybe the deal had gotten better to take a look at this again um But when you look at the numbers given the history and I have some Documentation here, which was provided from the county. Where do we come from from the old deal? February 13 2004 This is the notes from the county new proposal received from city attorney steve mclean The city has requested independent appraisals completed on the two properties The four acre county county parcel was appraised at 629 thousand and the sitting parking lot was appraised at 326,000 the offer 629,000 discounted by one third which reduced it by 209,646 which bring it to 419,354 discount the city parking lot value at minus 326,000 Leaves a balance due of 93,354 In addition the city will provide a hundred thousand dollars towards the cost of constructing a new sultry In summary swap the city parking lot and pay 193,340 354 dollars for a four acre county parcel. Here's the change That's how much it was just less than a year ago. We were going to pay the county Giving them a parking lot 193,354 dollars here. We are less than a year and what's being discussed is paying them roughly around Now 500,000 and a parking lot To clarify some of the questions that have been made about this parking lot where all these numbers coming Back in october Of 2003 the assessment value on the parking lot was 127,500 Today now the assessment right in the paper is 122,400 Where are these numbers of a million dollars coming these month these numbers of 498,000? Well, I'll tell you Through the period of 1989 to the late 90s We um continued to acquire um those parcels there with the acquisition cost and the lot construction cost and the demolition We as the city paid over 498,863 dollars and 79 cents Now the million dollar factor If the county if we do give up that parking lot We lose full control of that They could in turn Sell that to a private developer and what would that value be today? That's where that million dollars is coming in Mind you we receive revenue From the parking that we provide there that people rent out which we would be losing as well um given all these things um Here's the advantages of open government Here we're discussing this At times we need to be business minded I was hoping to come here tonight where we would be thinking of the city's best interest and going back to the county What best serves our needs I am um Somewhat frustrated in the fact that I am limited to tell you more information tonight concerning what the agenda says But I will tell you this There is a better deal out there or comparable But I am prevented from telling you But trust this that I will be bringing in a resolution for our next common council I'll give you the analogy of buying a home I think it's been determined here that Comparing city hall to 23rd street site is not comparing apples to apples But I have something that will be coming in On our next council meeting that we can take an earnest look. What is two weeks? It's not going to compromise the timeline And again using the analogy of a home in order to know that you're getting the best deal Always the first person to present its case seems right until another one comes along and questions it And that's all i'm asking this council Take a look at some more information that I have That way we can give a fair assessment But I do not feel comfortable in supporting this this evening. I will allow the city two more weeks To make sure that it gets the best deal. Thank you Thank you all of them sort of all of them on tomorrow Thank you, mr. Chairman. I think Um The fact that we're looking at the best site again is wonderful The present site is number two. It has been with the studies However, that we're considering the best one again. I think is great now As part of the building use committee helped put together this resolution Along with rich keppard's help. Thank you. But I think maybe After thinking about this a little further um The new assessment of the value of 23rd street new assessment june 2006 Is nine hundred and forty nine thousand nine hundred dollars That's a new assessment. It's gone up since um, we talked with the with the county and with the last with the county in May of oh four it's now june of oh six And the new assessment is fair And then we deduct a third because we as a city already have It's part of us. So that brings it down to six hundred and twenty seven thousand dollars Now the new assessment on that parking lot Is 122 thousand dollars and mariella certainly knows what she's doing. However, however Previously the county agreed That they would allow three hundred and twenty six thousand dollars in the value of that parking lot So I hope either this evening or monday To change the value of the parking lot to what the county offered us before the 326 thousand dollars Which would mean instead of offering the county 504 thousand dollars to be 301 thousand dollars, which is pretty much what The county said to us In may oh four when we had the previous agreement with them It's fair to the county that we take into consideration the new value of 23rd. It's fair to us To take into consideration the value they gave to that parking lot And I would hope the county would say yes to this and it'll be a straightforward If this is approved we purchase the land it's ours The salt they can take the salt shed off that's theirs move it put whatever they want We have the land it's ours and we can move ahead And build on the best site instead of the second best site But remember the second best site is still pretty darn good And also Not mess with the timeline get this police station built Now there's this chatter about the parking lot Lots of info In 90s When we purchased it in 97 The assessment was 197 thousand dollars. We paid 317 that was that's over and done with Then we took down the houses the value went down Nobody has come to the city that I know of asking to purchase that at any price whatsoever at all We've put in money to maintain the parking lot We we help we keep it clean So far the total income of all these years we've had the parking lot is 53 thousand dollars So I think that The county needs it. I think it's a good deal for us to have them take that and let's see if we can move forward with this Thank you Thank you um All the graphs. Did you have a point of order? But number one we don't have a document here number two Tonight's discussion is only supposed to be Regarding the alternate site if we want to do A resolution from this committee we can but it's not necessary to do it But this document that you all have a copy of Is what's coming from building use to the next council meeting? And that's all that the only reason this was brought in And I just put the timeline out as to when the county board had their meetings just to let you know That there's one coming up on the 21st and there'll be another one in july and I don't know if if that's the group That's that's bargaining or not, but What building use did was say okay if we're looking at at the 23rd street site if if the police chief and the mayor both Want to consider that one more time It shouldn't be any bother to any of us except it's going to cause us to write a document and say okay This is our one time offer either take it or leave it if they say no We're back to the north side of of this building and we'll build the police station there as far as I'm concerned And I think that was the the feeling of the the the building use committee that okay Well, we'll give it one last ditch effort and um Whatever the council thinks should be done if the council votes No, don't even give them this offer then it's dead in the water there But you'll have that option to do either um Monday the 19th or the first meeting in july. It's up to you All right, thank you Oldman ryan Thank you, mr. Chairman Number one I do agree with both our mayor and our chief of police that we must keep the timeline on this project If we deviate from the timeline The the chances of this project project being completed diminished greatly Uh, however, it appears to me that we're basically looking at two types of construction We have multi-story construction or slab on grade construction Um to bring north 23rd street back into this is the only alternative Does not Make a lot of sense to me I was not on the council when this decision was made of as far as what the two best sites were However, staying within the timeline studying Both multi-story constructs construction and slab on grade construction We could Fairly explore other sites And stay within the timeline and get the project done. We're not allowed to discuss other sites tonight However, uh, I Do believe that there is a great alternative out there that we should seriously be looking at. Thank you Thank you. Oldman ryan Oldman hannah Thank you Just a couple points of clarification here this parking lot on pennsylvania avenue All the person started did you say it had been a praise at one time at 326? I wrote down. She said it would have been appraised at 326 Because I've heard appraisals 127 122 Was that was that an offer? Okay Um to address your question. I have here from the county Documentation which they provided discount the city parking lot value, which they put a value on 326,000 The appraisal value I have back in october of 2003 was 127 500 Thanks Oldman ryan One thing I I'm not clear on on the north 23rd site. I don't know this for a fact, but it's my understanding that there's a good potential of Uh contamination Of the property has there been a phase one and phase two environmental study done on this property? And if there is contamination Will that contamination? Slow down the Construction of the department. Do we have dnr approval to build to do a a cap on it? Um Who's responsible if we have to clean up the contamination on their property? Is that the county's responsibility? Or the city taxpayers responsibility? I believe as far as responsibility we have to work that out and I know we did a phase one chief kerk Uh, are you aware if we did a phase two? Or uh, Tom Houlton There was a phase one that I believe but then we went out and dug four test holes out there If there is fill there We found this because mainly all just dirt in there We found a few chunks of concrete and brick and asphalt and nothing That we could say was contaminating smell Assault shuttle or I think there is controlling them in fact so back there. I believe I can't say that we're certainly pretty sure there was Thank you. Yeah I I think it should be clarified before anything Uh is agreed upon if there is environmental contamination who is responsible because that could be a phenomenal Built to the taxpayers and at the same time He has the potential to uh Seriously delay the timeline of the building of this facility Thank you The most important thing that we need to do is build a police station. We cannot go away from this timeline And and looking at other sites, you know, we just have to make sure we don't go away from the timeline Like what has been said tonight. Is there any other comments? attorney mclean if you could Come to the podium Thank you, mr. Chairman. Um, my my comment is just Uh, I'm not here to speak one way or the other on any particular site But uh looking at the numbers on the 23rd street site I was involved in the negotiation process with the county Spent about a year on that process We got to the point where the county got ahead of us they Took a vote the county board voted to sell it to us for a fixed number That's $200,000 less than I see in the in the draft resolution And I guess that causes me some concern as to you know, why the difference if the county was willing to accept a lesser number Year and a half ago What's what's changed? I would address alderman hannis question the 326 thousand dollar figure for the parking lot At the time was an appraisal done by tellin and associates Uh, the city council authorized an appraisal of the parking lot and also the 23rd street site if you look at the the draft resolution on the The assessor's figures for the 23rd street site. You see that's the assessor doesn't assess tax exempt properties What she what the numbers there relate to are a property that's adjacent at six Roughly six dollars a square foot. It's not that particular property That was part of the reason why the council year and a half ago decided to do appraisals for for the city as to what the values were and While there was some mention about 600 and some odd thousand on the appraisal That was done on the 23rd street site My recollection is there was some confusion on that that the appraiser didn't include in the the additional easement area the 0.6 acre or 0.4 acre parcel so We in the negotiations factored the value up a little bit and that's how it came You know the bottom line was 162,750 For the parcel 13575 for the salt shed if if the county was going to rebuild the salt shed within two years And if they didn't rebuild it within two years, they would reimburse us that money and We would deed them the the parking lot site um maybe There has That was uh, should say my notes reflect that We asked the county about their proposal About a year ago and they responded back in a correspondence in july of 05 saying those numbers are still good That's still the county's position. They would sell it to us under those terms and conditions it would seem to me the And I must apologize. I haven't had any contact with adam pain or bill gearing currently so maybe maybe those aren't Maybe it's not legitimate to say that That's what we ought to work off of currently, but it would seem like based on Pretty long-term negotiation that that should be kind of the framework that we would use if we're going to acquire the 23rd street site Rather than sort of start from scratch uh, using The assessors, you know assess values which um I don't know the assessments are Looking at property and from a different perspective than an actual appraisal is As far as market values and so forth and I think the appraiser on the On the parking lot site in particular was looking at the improvements and things like that What went into the parking lot as opposed to just looking at it as a vacant piece of land So those are those are my comments as I say um Whatever site you choose You know has no bearing on me. I do think The time is of the essence um, but I would Suggest that if you're going to use or look at acquiring the 23rd street site and making an offer back to the county that you kind of work from What the county has already agreed to basically and if there's some inflation factor to be factored into that So be it but I think alderman montemire had brought it up previously she had originally talked about the hundred and twenty two thousand dollar figure And would rather use the three hundred and twenty six thousand dollar figure. I think that Really ends up at the same point that I would be suggesting Thank you Thank you attorney mclean Is there any President broome Yes, uh, thank you. Mr. Chairman. I think we're spending a lot of time on on the parking lot And I don't think anybody was ever driven past the courthouse could argue That uh, there's excess parking in the general courthouse area This came up in 2005 when the Individual who's involved in the courthouse maintenance. Mr. Debeest wrote out in paying a memo the option If the parking lot is not available is for the county to look at structured parking That was originally considered in 1999 as part of their long-term capital outlay His estimates are for structured parking with a 2006 inflated cost It's estimated that to put a parking ramp in would cost in 2006 dollars about 3.75 million dollars If that were the case that would mean the city share Would likely be something like a million and a quarter To provide that structure In the county parking lot. So that is also a factor that needs to be considered. So when we juxtapose the Cost of the taxpayer of say a million and a quarter of Dollars and that doesn't include the bonding cost because likely this isn't going to come out of pocket Versus the cost of a parking lot which where Maybe we can negotiate to some degree having the first right of refusal for the value of the property I think we may be able to Negotiate further with the county given that their alternative is really rather expensive. That's the alternative of structured parking Thank you Any other alderman have any comments? Alderman kidlson Thank you, mr. Chairman. I guess I just want to go back to stating Back to city hall the reason That I Chose city hall in the first place. I know we've talked and I just want to remind people and in my constituents also that Back then There was we talked about the land acquisition and here at city hall. There were zero dollars for the land acquisition We we've got it right here And I know it was in the paper that the that our architect had said that He recommended city hall even over the van der Waart site There are things here at city hall that would work very nicely I'd also gotten letters and and calls from constituents who said gene We'd like it at city hall and we just thinking back on that they they did say that And then there was also a study done here by tom holton and paul at enders and They came out with city hall as being the top site So, you know, I just wanted to remind people to go back and look at some of that information also Before we you know do make a final decision Thanks Alderman ryan I think excuse me Thank you, mr. Chairman. I think one thing that we're uh We we haven't That we're not paying attention to between the city hall site and the north 23rd site or an alternative Slab on grade type construction is what Are the Wishes of The police department and how can they operate? The best how can they be the most efficient in their operations? I don't know if any if these studies took into account What is the best alternative for operations of the police department as opposed to What is the most economical or the Or the recommendation of people who are not going to be working out of this facility I think that should be taken into account. I think uh, both the mayor and chief kirk Feel that the north 23rd street site is a better site I've spoken with the chief about it. He Stated that it would work Functionally much better than trying to Work out of city hall here So I I do believe that uh the uh north 23rd site or an alternative slab on grade type construction is probably The way to go seeing as the uh, you know, the police department are going to be the people working out of it Thank you Thank you No other discussion Motion second to adjourn all in favor signify by saying aye. Aye Triple tie motion passes