 Podcasts was roundtable round 129 is your podcast everywhere. I searched the archive. I don't think we've specifically titled one this but Who cares if we have because we revisit things things change things evolve. We are we're in the media business here, right? so constantly Evolving and we're gonna talk about some current stories in said Medium media or what are we industry? What are we Paul? What do we what do you call it? You say you see you must say the podcast It's probably in your tagline. I don't think we're in industry. I think we're in industry. All right. Well, is it a podcast report tagline? What is the tagline for that? The real business of podcasting the real bit. Okay, so all right back in the day Paul was you the media. Yeah, there we go I remember that Awesome. All right. Well with that, let's meet the roundtable co-host Dave Jackson Sipping on what I assume is not a frothy frothy beverage, but no, this is advocate sprite It's some sort of what vitamins and stuff It basically is an adult version of Kool-Aid You were calling it sprite or it's made by Sprite. What's called? All right, anyone. Okay. Well, we we want our ad money now. So that's it. I mean we almost led the show with a Frickin ass. Hey, thanks. Welcome to the show. Enjoy this cool refreshing. Yeah the day Jackson from the school of podcasting calm Awesome, and welcome back Paul Thank you. Thank you. This is the t-shirt one, right? No. No, oh well for the tribe If you're counting in the chat room, you're wrong. I'm just saying Welcome Sorry, quite sure we just got a YouTube to copyright tags of that The bots are coming after us All right, guest first time round table are Andrew welcome Thank you very much. Andrew clues from the emerging podcast.com a podcast about fun enough cars UK and Europe centric though. Very cool. We got the global theme going today It is like 12 30 in the morning you held out for this round table. Thank you so much Well, it's no note. It's a chance to get on here. Of course. I'll stay up. Where are you exactly? I'm north of Liverpool. All right. Oh shit. She nods head like he knows exactly where that's it We're at North England. North. Yeah, awesome. Not far from the wall The wall. All right. I've been to Manchester and London. It's just basically left of that. Yeah, very cool All right. Well, there's a political joke there. We won't go there. All right Brexit and all that stuff which Again, it's a different joke. It's yeah, it's a different round table all together to sort of watch me cry for an hour. That's fun We could have a therapy session. That's probably actually yeah much more valuable than what we're gonna be podcasting Just one big therapy session It is this is our this is the way this is how we get it out, right? Oh All right. Cool. Well, let's jump right in. I think You know the way this has worked since we switched from Topic-based to sort of news or story-based. It doesn't have to be like current news But maybe a story or write-up something you want to comment on but the shift I've seen is that I'm enjoying that It's allowing to get more variety of podcasters on but it seems that we We start with the story and that first story gets like a half hour of the attention so it gets the bulk It becomes almost the topic which actually I've enjoyed so we I think I feel like we're blending the two But and that because of that I need to make sure that I'm starting I think with what the biggest lead story and then Breaking it's not breaking Not breaking or we already broke it. That's the problem, but Let's start off with you. I think Andrew you brought up the reason you're here is because on Twitter You brought up ask saying it would be a good round table topic and I said well Why don't you bring something related to that although? I don't see it in your thing So maybe you because Dave has nick nicked it before I could how he's scooped you He's already there. He's ahead of the game. Well, you're he's just a co-host so he doesn't he gets paid a lot of money He doesn't have to do anything So we'll bypass him and we'll let you introduce well I want to just introduce the topic that the the story that pointed you towards the idea what you The story that pointed me towards it was the luminary one which has moved at a pace today and That some Larger shows or more well-known shows have chosen not to have their podcasts and networks as well chosen not to have their podcasts on the luminary Service and There's been a lot of speculation before today about Was it licensing? Was it to do with adverts? What what was it all about? But that prompted for me Because I have wrestled with this often Should we have our podcasts everywhere because I hear some people argue for that and some people say be selective in where you place them because where I have difficulties with this is I Don't want to I Don't want someone to gain off my hard work if I'm getting nothing in return and It's choosing Sounds very simplistic. I think this is a very nuanced topic and it's always falls into be everywhere or Get paid for where you are put and I I think it is much more complicated than that I think it depends on the type of show you have What your business model is behind your show if you have a business model or how you're trying to monetize things like that and I Was hoping in this therapy session to to ask The great minds that are here Why you have the your particular Take on it and why use you stand with your perspective on this. Yeah, sure awesome Dave since you also had this story, do you want to explain a little bit? What it? The few words what exactly is luminary and what the heck is going on? What's the? Originally, I thought luminary was gonna be it's a this is a company that got What a hundred million yet hundred million dollars to make an app that was going to solve the discoverability problem in Podcasting I thought originally it was going to be only 40 podcasts in the app you pay 799 699 a month to get the to get access to the podcast that are in the app when it came out they had apparently scraped all the RSS feeds in the back end of iTunes Apple podcast and Brought those over so if you're an Apple podcast You're now in luminary and that's where people were like hold on a second I don't I didn't I don't want to be over there because they're they're making money by I'm not sure how I don't think you have to buy the app You just have to what use the app and if you want to listen to some of their stuff You have to then pay but that's okay So like you say scraping like almost like they did something that that really hasn't been done or isn't Podcast apps most podcast apps take their library from Apple They get from the open API, I guess or maybe you have to play I don't yeah the one difference I mean luminary got their podcast in the same place that Marco Armit Right because the thing is is luminary did it like November like a bunch of months ago And just hasn't changed anything where Marco seems to update it every couple of days But yeah, they're grabbing it for the database, which has always been notoriously a gray area So it's an it's an interesting Why is it great? Read read the terms and conditions Apple profiting from accessing the API always gets interesting and luminaries definitely profiting and Marco is definitely profiting and You know people who run review services and that kind of stuff are definitely profiting It's just when you're when you're grabbing from someone else's data You know you want to be careful and the danger there too I mean they're they're at risk if Apple just suddenly closes the door, right? Of what they have right now, you know, I mean They're not gonna lose me if Apple closed the door because they got that information But if when Dave adds his 89th podcast tomorrow, you know, he won't be a luminary. That's right. That's right All right, so okay, okay, so Most apps I'm sorry to interrupt you that race. It wasn't part of the problem the way they have Not the way they've scraped it But the fact that they put it in something to do now it becomes witchcraft for me about a proxy and then We're not supposed to be able to get our stats and things like that. Isn't that what people are? I mean, I know initially when it the information first came out Everyone presumed it they'd put it in a server and done like Spotify And that's quite that so then we're a lot of the Anger from the people who haven't signed up to the the service is that we won't get our stats Now I think in them I think a lot of the anger comes from the attention that they're getting and they're making they make a buck It's like I'm not seeing a congruent effort to get the podcast out of other services like Stitcher I'm seeing shows who are saying we're pulling all our shows out of luminary and guess what they're still in Stitcher What's different? There's Stitcher premium What's the difference here you told Stitcher to add you Okay, Stitcher, but then there's probably another app exactly so there are they the first is luminary the first app to take podcast and Offer a premium option On top of on top of what's already there I didn't submit to there's a number of issues here and and and that's that's the you know You know the onion at play here. There is the my hard work I don't want them to make money off of it if I don't make money off of it issue Then you're gonna need to in Brighton and you're gonna need to pull your podcast out of most Number two the bigger platforms that have not given us the best stats have required that we Submit ourselves to them. We asked to be on the platform stitcher that kind of thing You know Google's new 87th iteration of their podcasting platform, you know, you know does give us stats We actually have better stats there. So Google also took it without all right You didn't have to submit to Google podcast, right? Right, but they're giving you back the stats like like the unspoken agreement and podcasting is here's my feed Don't do anything with it. Just send people directly to me. So I know what's going on the people Stitcher Spotify who didn't do that. We gave them specific permission Luminary is the first one to Take without that permission. So everybody, you know, I I mean search the internet tomorrow There will be 18 new directories that have your podcast index, right, you know, but if someone loads from directory X, you know, it will show as a safari or a chrome play from your thing So this is the first time they've grabbed it cached it without your permission and now permission But aren't we giving permission by putting it the RSS being a publicly available feed? The argument is You know, and this is key the argument is we gave people permission To talk about our podcast and let them download from our server That's what we gave them permission to do. So random podcast directory X You know pod fly radio FM cast Blue, you know, take out some vows Directory is gonna scrape my feeds gonna give my data, but when I download from My Libsson account, you know, my particular case, I'm going to get that stat. I'm going to get that run So if someone goes to that random directory and streams my show I'm gonna get that as a safari pull and if someone goes to apple.com and streams my show I'm gonna get that as a safari pull and so That is the understood Interchange That's the podcast social contract. That's the much better way to say it as as always So that is that is the that is the social contract now So number one there is the why should they make money? If I don't make money argument, which is funny because I think apple makes money, too You know, and I think Google makes money, too I think there's a lot of people who are making money In in podcasting that that you know that we aren't so that argument gets gets gets gets interested because yes You know apple isn't charging a premium to get the podcast But but you know this thousand dollar phone that I just banged against the table definitely falls from the category of premium It goes it goes beyond money, too Because that's what I want to ask Andrew when you say when I'm not getting anything returned We are getting stuff in return, right? You're in an app that now puts you in front of how many thousands of new people you are getting you're getting distribution, right? So I'm curious about that question of yes No, I know and that's what I'm saying This is where I get conflicted is because yes It puts me in front of people and I hear what Paul's saying about Apple Google and that I Think where thing a service say like Spotify or luminary. I really I Really start to have a problem is that they are overtly making money from or it helps them very Obviously to have free content. What about stitcher stitchers? I would say stitchers at this point worse because two things happen on stitcher They have a premium which they are getting people into because you're putting your free podcast and They're running ads against your podcast that you I don't think you're getting paid for They're double-waning you but most these people Joe Rogan is pulled off limb luminary But guess what it shows on stitcher. So what's the deal? So was ours and this week. This was one of our early days. Oh, we've got a podcast We must be everywhere throw it on stitcher without Being sensible and looking at things and going actually does that? Causes a bit of angst You're willing you're willing to trade not because it people here's the thing people don't use two or three podcast apps They use one. So if stitch if they've chosen to use stitcher, you're cool with not being Available to the audience that wants to hear you just because you're gonna miss out on five bucks or whatever They're gonna give you I won't go on Spotify for a couple reasons. So Spotify. Okay. I was thinking Yeah, we're on we're on stitcher. Okay But if I was coming into it fresh now knowing what I know now I wouldn't be on stitcher either At the moment, but I want this is where I want to talk to you guys is because am I being a princess about this? am I throwing The pulse is that water out as well. Am I am I just being too sensitive or? Is it a case of perhaps I do have some valid? Valid fears and concerns that perhaps is The stunts we've got with our podcast is quite right Probably both. I mean, it's probably a little both in play. I mean who wants to answer who wants to I think a lot of depends on Your if a if you have a business model and if you don't have a business model, then I would say go everywhere because What's the devil have a business model? Just because you Don't associate going everywhere with not having a business model. Yeah, cuz I mean yeah for me The more people that listen to the school of podcasting the more people I might get as a consultant the more people that might sign up at the school of podcasting the more people that might click On an affiliate link. So by all means make your money and the more years I get to That's Andrew. Andrew. Do you have a business model? Well, we're a we're a weekly news show and I'm just trying to figure out What's the what's the reason like you you're not making the money you need to make through those platforms? Like you you're saying you wouldn't do it if you're starting the show. Why not? No, we Both of us have day jobs. So this is definitely our thing on the side. So for us to for this to make enough money for us to give up our day jobs Because we're not we're not offering a service We're not it's not that we have a business that we're gonna be consultants or anything like that on the back of this because this is just a weekly news show with Sure occasional car reviews that sort of thing. So we're not that sort of so isn't it more important to grow? We have grown Organically in the three and a half years we have from nothing to Over 6,000 downloads on the show. What's your goal for the show? Is it just to be a side for fun thing or do would you rather make your living doing the podcast? Ideally, yeah, I'd love I'd love for it to pay that but it requires a Seismic shift in how we approach it and it would require a massive jump in money Because we're older we have commitments when wouldn't it help wouldn't you help that process by having more audience? Wouldn't that be a better payment than maybe it could be but I would question Because we're in the UK and podcast listening is less percentage wise than the US and I would I Would quit we've been asked wants to be on Spotify In three and a half years. I I guess what I'm missing is How does it What does it hurt or is it just a I'm doing it because they're making money and I'm not yeah is a pirate radio There is there is definitely that because of the way particularly Spotify the way they've they've put forward How Putting your podcast on their platform is a good thing is is brilliant but they desperately need content they don't have to pay for and There is It's almost like they're saying it with hoping no one notices that and I don't like that sort of Attitude, I know they're a big business. They are to make money and absolutely These businesses should be making money. I am I'm not against people making money I want to make that clear because sometimes I could sound a bit like that. They absolutely should sound they should be making money Because then we can get good quality content. Well, they and that's what they've done I mean that their whole their main Lure is that they have these massively big shows, right? There are people that are creating shows that are big pools like Trevor know arrived the daily show or something and so that people will pay $8 or whatever it is a month because there's some really highly produced Content there and the other free stuff us the indie podcasters we add you again I think it goes back to having an app that serves all your podcasting needs, right? So that's why they need they need the other half of it But you know Paul I think Marco is a good defender of the space of the medium where I want to call it Protective of it at least I would say Obviously has his own business interests, but do you know some of his major objections or Dave? Do we know some of the major objections that he's but this is all like sort of happening in real time on Twitter? Things even got changed. I think luminary changed something with their servers today. I mean, it's like it's pretty moving pretty fast Well, Marco's thing and I I have tremendous respect for Marco Marco's thing it alludes to what you said a little bit a few minutes ago Ray is that there's a social contract of podcasting Right and that social contract has allowed this Independent crazy beautiful thing You know, you know that we celebrate and if someone comes in with a ton of money They could potentially break it the best analogy I've heard I've always had a hard time understanding why people have a hard time with Money and podcasting and the best analogy I've heard and I thought this was an interesting one and I heard it on a podcast I heard it on five by fives back to work show and Merlin man said that There have been cities in America. Well, where Walmart has come in Knocked out all the stores out of business because it's Walmart And then decided that that town wasn't worth it. They've left and they've left the town of ghost town So I think the concern on on Marco's side of things is these is these big players who aren't playing by the social contract could potentially Have a devastating impact such as Walmart, you know has has had in the past And so that is that is marcos Take on it and and marco has been Very Strategically and very wonderfully a champion of the industry because he's provided this great tool That doesn't get in the way, you know, I'm overcast as a fascinating product It doesn't get in the way it provides things but just yesterday I sold my client on, you know, doing ads on the overcast engine So marco has earned A right to be a champion for the industry. So yes, he has definitely has interest But um, I think he has something to say. I think the question is back to what dave said, you know, what is Your business plan paul, you know, what is your business plan dave? You know, what is your business plan marco? You know, does this affect that, you know, I would say that there are very few people Um, where the business plan directs them to disconnect from luminary Sometimes press, you know, sometimes podcasts. I mean, let's face it. There's some podcast out there You know darn well that there's some podcast that nobody knows about who are pulling out a luminary because they hope to get on the news For pulling out a luminary You know, honestly, it felt like a lot of chess eating and Illuminaries getting all this exposure and these popular pot and like I just don't understand I haven't seen this pushback for other platforms that also have premium options And I'm just wondering what's going on and I'm not even the model is a lot of shows make their money by ads But by cpm ad inserts and if luminary pulls a lot of people they're not going to be able to count them And they're not going to be able to make that money, right? So this is at least there's a there's something Here this is differentiator that I'm looking at like what's luminary not giving back and we talked about that social social contract But are we really not going to be able to get stats from luminary? Is that I mean that's going to come out like a week, right? Well, there was a thing today And this is where I go in to speak that I don't still quite understand what I'm talking about But they were basically using a proxy and I'm going to say that like I know what it means I get what it does say with the british accent sounds cooler proxy It comes with a proxy. We have a british guy here. So yeah We yeah, yeah, let's have a real british accent so Yeah, thank you much better and Somewhere around this morning this afternoon People were saying hey wait a minute the way they're doing this where they're going and getting the file but making it It doesn't look like it's coming from them, but it does look from there one of this proxy thing did Is we weren't a hundred percent sure that Let's say you're on libson that that was going to get back to libson that hey somebody downloaded your file And that's when people lost their minds because we all love our stats and so I would say about four o'clock again marco Was on twitter and basically said they switched from a something something to an http redirect and that seems to be working now and It's going so you should see Whatever downloads from luminary And and i'm not sure that's assuming that whoever wrote the app Actually put the name of the app in the app so it shows up in your user agents and not Whatever if you can't tell this is where we severely miss daniel and i know he's probably like listening While he's sending to a baby and he's yelling at us right now, but that that's fine. This is how we This is how we get you back daniel by being ignorant of certain things We drive him crazy. He returns. Yeah, you know if we just call it witchcraft for the rest of the show Enough time. Well, I guess the thing that got me is by the end of the day Even there was a tweet from marco that basically said okay. I'm gonna count this as resolved right and I went okay Well, then wow is that the issue? Yes, he did but is that is that it? Is that the major beef? Like why? No, I think part of it is one of these big white gimlet rogan spotify But now I mean let's not get into you can read hot pot and he has an old area on that But here's what I'm wondering part of it is I think some of this goes back to their little tweet That said podcasts don't need ads and everybody Again lost their minds went over and just attacked that tweet and they eventually pulled it down Because it was kind of snarky. They kind of had a little swagger Yeah, they thought it was kind of 100 million dollar swagger chest beating and people roaring back saying We can upset about that. Are they are they really I got under their skin that much Well, that's what I'm asking I'm like, is that is this just a case that people like, you know what 100 million dollar swagger You know, it's it's like the rich kid coming in goes that's saying my dad's better than your dad You just everybody just kind of wants to silently punch him in the face All right, so jason brian in the chat He says he opted into stitcher and spotify and sprieker monetization, but I didn't for luminary I want my network shows 20 plus shows off it. I'd previously yanked my shows from mix cloud To so jason you're watching live that means you need to follow that up and tell us exactly why You want your 20 shows off and did and did mix cloud because Um, I don't know mix cloud and again like I mean during the course of this episode 48 new podcast directories have launched And so and 47.5 failed right exactly did did mix cloud pull Without your permission and is not reporting or are they like that because I just don't know that one. I remember the name I don't remember what they do right daniel come back. It's free And then up to a certain number of bandwidth That's how you can always tell when somebody's using mix cloud Because you you hit play and nothing happens and then you go to their website and it says This is not available. You've gone over your bandwidth. I'm like Yes, but meanwhile, they're chugging starbucks saying they don't have enough money for a host Yep I think I think jason's actually in china right now. He said good morning and I've seen his instagram updates. He's a like a Pro wrestling announcement, but not like wwf. He's like actual like real wrestling And that's gonna get a lot of hate if I'm gonna be careful. I don't know jason. I'm in the wrong territory here I mean even though I know you can't say that Maybe that's it the fact that that hey you put My stuff in your app without asking me And then throw on top of it. Oh and You're bringing people over there to buy stuff That i'm not going to get a piece of by the way just to back myself up jason announces at the olympics So if you want, I mean, I don't see wdf at olympics. Just saying just saying There's tinglets involved Yes, may I offer a Differing opinion. It better be is it controversial? I hope so. Oh, that's that's why we bring you here paul I believe that the model of cpm inserts Is pretty much the lowest possible model that there is for podcast horrible horrible what davis said about What davis said about his goal of the school of podcasting is to get people to sign him up as a consultant or to join the school of podcasting That's that's the model that we have at play here And there are ads remember there are a lot of ads that say visit the website use this coupon code They don't do that just to say their podcast name again. They do that for tracking purposes And and that is that is cpa versus cpm and just for those listening along cpm Is an old advertising term cost per miller and miller is italian for a thousand and the concept is for every thousand people Download the show. What are you made? and and that ranges in the If you're on anchor, that's about 50 cents If you're anywhere else, that's about 40 dollars. If you're tim first, that's about 100. That's your range And cpa is cost per acquisition. That's where they pay every time somebody buys something so There was a point where eBay if you got someone to sign up to ebay for the first time you got 50 bucks You know and here's the thing if you do cpa twitch prime, which is much better money if you do cpa and Somebody watches you on luminary and uses your coupon code. You're still good If you have people buying your services or products like dave is doing and someone's listens to you on luminary You're still good Yes, there's a definite problem that there are a lot of people out there trying to quote unquote solve podcasting And we can debate quote unquote this podcast need to be solved But it's not mine to to debate it's marcos and those guys The fact of the matter is this model we're going to see more and more of this and then there's all the classic problems If I know this episode was downloaded four times. You're only listing three, you know, um, it becomes How far did they listen? You know all this stuff? I think this is just a further nail in the coffin of cpm insertion is where we make our money Because it's dying A deeper depth more and more and more and if we can move to a monetization model that makes sense Things like this will make us better not hurt us No, I completely agree and and I think the likes of anchor doing their Oh, everyone can earn money from an advert in their podcast Which is which drives me insane because that's not right It is not right and it is it's not right for the podcaster and most of all, it's not right for the listener because not every podcast should have an advert because The quality is not right. They haven't got the right audience whatever but the cp CPA version that is the way I feel podcasts Advertising needs to go and I've said I've said this before to to other people The only adverts I have ever interacted with knowingly In the last couple of years have been from a podcast They are the only ones I've gone. Oh, yes. I want this service. I'm going if a model is broken If every time I talk into this microphone Um, it doesn't record my voice Sure, I can tweet about how much this microphone sucks Or I could just get a new damn microphone, you know and and get back to my podcast and you know What's happening in podcasting is is is we're complaining about all these things. We're not actually Fixing these things, you know, I know a guy who wrote a book for one purpose He wrote an entire book to get it published to get it at amazon So that he could use his amazon prime account to order a copy of the book and mail it to someone that he wanted to read the book You know, that was it You know, and um, um, he leveraged this platform to get his message out and and that's what the smart podcaster does You know, these guys who buy these big big big ad buys who pay a lot of money um It's smoke and mirrors You know, you know, you notice the bigger the name the less the amount of cpa calls the less amount of tracking is There's the me tim ferris me worth this much Um, that's not going to last that long It's just not going to happen The the models that are proven are going to work The models that are tried are going to be tried and will probably fail i.e You know premium podcasting and trust me. I know a little bit about premium failing as a model Let's let the market do what it does You know, let's let dave try to sell consulting in his courses on his little class You know, let's let tim sell mushroom elixirs on his little thing You know, and let's everybody do this and let's just you know, see what happens at the end. I for one luminary Some people are going to download luminary some people are going to look for me I want to be there for him because my money is not in the ad inserts My money is in the bigger strategy at play. That's why I think we all need to know what our bigger strategy at play is I've kind of gone in the last couple rounds I may even said it in two different rounds that would we really Would it really be a bad thing if podcasting failed? And what I mean by that is that the the big money The attention the crazy got you got you. Yeah, right Goes away Give me a moment. We never go away. This is just a it's just a it's another channel for our content, right? We don't and we exist on on models that we know work for us like that CPA, right? Yeah So like he's never going to take away moonshine. Yeah, exactly So well, but speaking of big money I I need to share my screen and let everybody know that I am up to 19 cents On my anchor account and that's with a whopping 71 plays. So the round is on Dave. That is it, man I'm like, it's only a matter of time until I get that Bentley so Blogging called this ad sense. Yes, exactly and the 1% made money This is the same with youtube, right? Yeah, you look at the 1% of people who are making Money off youtube ads, but what you said there about blogging is the is the one of the worries I have It's not my we don't learn from our history But well exactly that because the ad sense and this The anchor idea that other people are suggesting. Let's have dynamic thrown in ads I was listening to a history podcast that I listened to a lot And I really enjoy and it suddenly started with dynamic ads And I'm listening to a history podcast that suddenly said by turbo tax I say that has no relevance to me Or this subject or the person who's presenting this subject at all I My problem is if you're going to do an advert make it relevant to the it's got to be relevant to the listener The listener has to be the core of all this surely Otherwise it's pointless all the effort everybody else puts in So on in the chat jason follows up he says I look at luminary in the manner of someone who reposts other stuff on youtube And enables monetization because I may be off on that comparison, but you didn't ask so you don't get to play So jason's a little backside hurt about not being asked But is he actually losing like it I get it people are upset they weren't asked right? So that's who's where's really who's really losing in that situation. Let's play with the jason money. Okay Or the jason example Dave Jason steals all of your videos about the school of podcasting puts them on youtube runs ads What happens? Uh, most people will go to youtube where it's free To watch my videos. I don't know Dave makes $5 from google and gets 15 new school of podcast clients, right? Dave wins Right now what you're going? Yeah Like like if somebody grabs dave's content Which sells the school of podcasting and makes a few bucks getting other people to look at it God bless them. Okay, and I will say this happens to me Constantly on youtube everyone steals my videos because once you hit a certain threshold people just steal your videos And they monetize against them. However, I've got no there's nothing built into those videos that I win, right? So like so build them in no, I can't because there's nothing to build in like and that's just another That's just a content creation issue like I could create a class and I just don't do that stuff, right? I don't I don't have an existence So I would say that is a strategy issue not a content issue. I say your content is fantastic It's your strategy that that's why people steal it right the content is good They know they can make money off of it and in google has recourse for this It's not the best but they have recourse for this but not having Relying on the platform to produce the money Is the problem in that case? Um, I I don't do that It does make money because why wouldn't I click that because I'm making content But you know, it would be a it would be if I had to make my living from that Then I would want to build in something where it didn't matter as long as the content got seen So this goes like dynamic insertion is luminary potentially breaking dynamic insertion because if you bake in the ad It doesn't matter where it's I heard that in some of the tweets that they've been saying that the dynamic ads Were being broken as well because that's that would give me ads so not only With their stats not at the time not going to go back to them, but I read the luminary is stepping on puppies You're not going to be very good. It is launch week, isn't it? But back to I mean why is why is rogan? Why is spot? Why are they why are they rejecting luminary? Again, what am I is it? It's not a stats issue completely. Is it? Or rogan is worried That a chunk of people are going to listen to his show On luminary and his model is sending download numbers to the people who give him 45 bucks per thousand, you know, what's funny about that is that I see tons of rogan He's got a major problem on youtube So do other big brands because guess what their clips are just all over youtube And I don't know why youtube hasn't stopped this yet But most of what you see if you saw the rogan show on youtube and in the last year Almost guarantee you did not see it from his channel. You saw from someone else dealing exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and um So why doesn't he leave that is the that is the claim reason and and the thing is emotional responses don't necessarily have strategy behind them, right? I just why doesn't he leave youtube or why don't you leave stitcher because they have a I mean part of me. Thanks, too. Here's another thing luminary has been What's the big news other big news before this coming out of luminary? It's the fact that they are signing huge contracts with these other people huge contract So if you're big trevin, no, I don't even know any other examples. It's the one I've seen Original programming they are this is what the this is what the big platforms are doing now spotify. They're creating original program this is the netflix model, right and But is a proven we got to be careful because netflix is a proven model This has never been proven in podcasting, right? I mean just from the I'd mean original content creation We can go back to making money from original content creation is a netflix model Making money from save that Pipe dream save that and tell me why you think Why you think one is worked in the other save that But why I also think is that like people like joe rogan who could be they weren't approached to make original They want they want the big they want the big contract, right? I mean if you're big enough you could say oh well you can pay us I mean what are the reports like 150 thousand dollar Contracts to start new shows on luminary. I didn't oh no no dude Bigger you're way millions millions. Okay. Good. I mean that's me. That's just my number luminary I'm just saying you want the round table. It's only 150k. I heard a couple examples and we're still Why heard where somebody had 1.5 million throwing at them and they turned it down Right. So I mean I think part of it is people it's like a game like they're like give me a contract and I'll come over to luminary Like so I don't think yeah, have the have they thrown the dummy out because And we're also talking about again the people I tell people not to look at the 1% because it doesn't include us It doesn't even fit our models. It doesn't it doesn't it's not relatable. It's not where we live It's not where we exist So the average indie podcaster who is then also saying oh, I'm not putting my content there I mean dude guests. You're not getting a contract. So I hope you have some other really good reasons for what you would get I don't know what Paul's showing us. It is showing us I see a graph Netflix is worth $386 to share right now because people will pay for original content. So why why is proof? Why won't they do it in podcasting then? Yes, well it hasn't been proven yet like like nobody's nobody's ought to share Spotify Because they paid Amy Schumer way too much money to make content People have bought netflix because they've paid You know those those adorable kids from stranger things, you know to give us a third season Right and also for the record if uh, I wish you can remember the article netflix is also borrowing money to make these uh, lovely Content is expensive. Yeah, I'm premium and that's why your netflix. That's why netflix is going up in price, too Right, right You know the thing is the thing is selling premium content Has made netflix money Selling premium content has not made Spotify money and has not made luminary money It's the spirits. We don't know. We'll see in the future Um, you know, it has made audible some money But someone say audible all based on the back of the, you know, moby dick for, you know, 299 kind of thing um, but but it is not a proven model For premium audio content. Is it just too early generator? It's too early to know. Is that yeah, yeah, yeah I'm not necessarily Spotify made the biggest play so far and dumping a ton of money at gimlet, right? Well, there was yeah, that was the time then you've had little trickles of stuff like the ron burgundy podcast and You know a couple other people uh, the what's the one thing? How stuff is made that was eyehards play And they threw millions at those people Well, is bbc sounds a similar thing over in the uk because I know it's not available anywhere else Apart from the fact you don't have to pay for the app because of the unique and lovely way the bbc is funded Over here, but I know if you listen to bbc stuff abroad you get ads Don't you? um, so I I would suggest that possibly the bbc sounds is a similar thing because they've poured a Lot of money into this app, which is average and they've had their spat with google which Cannot be about what they claim it's about because apple does the same thing that they're claiming they don't want google to do well, so Sorry interrupted. I was actually in the chat Of course from the fact that they that is a uh, that is their walled garden of stuff But what about so mpr1 what about that? Right that was mpr's play at putting up a walled garden and I don't know that that's I wouldn't know if I would call that massively successful paul just shrunk his chair We almost had our own leo on the bubble bottle chair moment where paul just fell off We could have went viral but paul didn't commit to it. That's all right How badly does he want the t-shirt? That's a nerd joke not bad enough Yeah, I don't know I would we clearly are going to spend the whole round on this one story So it became a topic not a story, but I'm I'm enjoying it Um, what else is it fun to watch? Let's revisit. Let's revisit the is your podcast everywhere, right? Let's bring a full circle um Andrew it sounds like your podcast is not everywhere or you don't believe in the idea of putting it everywhere I'm still not sold exactly why that is what is the case of my problem Your question you're not sure why yeah, and I'm listening to what what the Venerable experts have said so far, but you're some sort of strategy Yeah, there is there's instincts with spotify um part of it is security privacy part of it is The way their business model is formed I could probably get over the business model side of things if I had a strategy myself listening to what Paul and Dave said and um, so ruminating on that that is probably where my Uncertainty is all founded that I don't I don't know what I want us to achieve with our podcast and how to achieve it And if if is it just to be a nice fun thing that we do on the side that we get beer money for Which is what it is at the minute or Is it something that we go no, you know what we're gonna really Go for this we are going to be the audio Place in the uk for motoring related content All right, so paul you have a lot to say about but you can't say a lot But what about being everywhere, right? You're on the opposite side. You would be everywhere, right? well You are everywhere. Can I get the podcast report anywhere? I can get a podcast wherever fine podcast or served Yeah, the podcast report that that is my strategy because I have built an engine on that because that is where podcasting is going What about what about Just I just have a damn podcast like there's no strategy But I just made a podcast like me and my buds had well if you and your buds just made a podcast Then of course you want to be everywhere like if you're if you're truly doing it to be to be you know heard Somebody thinks you're funny, you know, um, then then you definitely want to be everywhere Where's the what's the strategy that would have you not everywhere? Um, someone pays you good money for exclusivity Okay, so you got like for instance luminaries like for instance ron burgundy would make Far more money taking crazy crazy money to do his 10 episode show, you know Then he would to put it everywhere and put ads on it I'm one of my axioms is don't count on the crazy money But if it shows up cash the check quickly these these Original pro programs on luminary Did they say they're gonna exist on other platforms or I mean in some cases Like spotify has shows that will only exist on spotify right right and that's okay for those because they cashed out They made it work. Well, they're making So much gobs more money, but by being you know the exclusive poster boy poster girl You know, that's a great model And and if anybody wants to offer you obscene money to only be on a single platform go for it but You know good for you not the audience. There's eight of you. Well, well and and maybe Who's to say it's it's just it's it's not a model to Stand your ground and hope someone comes up with a monetization model that matches like Dare I ask is it a podcast at that point? No, no No, and my whole thing on that is I'm with I'm with paul Take that 1.5 million dollars. Don't spend it throw that in the the bank So then in two years when this thing fails You've got enough marketing money to let your audience know. Hey, I'm back and free right. Yeah And I can be found everywhere back to our friends at youtube Season one cobra kai. How was the only way you watch season one of cobra kai? Rhymes with paid for it season two cobra kai. What's you know, how do you watch? You know, how do you watch season two of cobra kai? However the heck you want? Really really they open it up That's why I'm seeing all the ads now Bingo, yeah, and is that so that you then go back and have to pay for season one still? No, no It's because it didn't work youtube red dad And you know what's funny about that is that you they they've killed Their chance because I assume when I see a cobra kai episode that or ad that I have to I have to be unread to get it I don't even agree But I did in the back of my mind because I watched a lot of the youtube app I did the back of mine go can I watch that now, but I didn't bother and even bother to try well, the other point of this is is I acknowledge that by being on spotify I'm not making the point zero zero six cents according to uncle google right now That musicians make on a stream now for my Let's say 300 downloads an episode I get on Weekly web tools that would be a dollar 80 So I understand that it's not so much about the dollar 80 as we are setting a precedent of hey You can have my stuff and not pay me I get that and somewhere down the line. We might go We should have thought about that back then but right now I'm like for my again for my business model. I'm like no I'll go ahead and put myself on there and that's just more people that will well And and and here's the flip side to that music issue because this is what's really interesting. Okay You have to track The money you have to track where they make their money If you want to be part of that game and what's really interesting is if spotify and pandora and and um That's about all I'm gonna say but but but but you know pandora news coming very fast very soon You know if pandora can turn off Remember more people listen to pandora every day than listen to podcasts If more americans listen to pandora every day than listen to podcast if pandora can cut their Streaming fees by 25 percent if spotify can cut the streaming fees by 25 percent It makes a heck of a lot of money. It makes a heck of a lot of sense for them to promote podcasts And here's the thing So spotify has spent a gazillion dollars to be the default place that kids listen to podcasts Now if they can get kids to listen to my show instead of podcasts, they make more money Now spotify the coolest thing for the kids has a vested interest in getting people to listen to my stuff This is one of the greatest business opportunities out there as long as my stuff isn't based on you know A nickel because i'm promoting, you know, what was it turbo tax? You know and and you know, so if we play this game we're in a really interesting place in the youtube world 70 percent seven zero percent of all downloads from youtube come from if you like this video you like another video 70 percent of all of them, you know, and so you know the business model there is be the type of video that youtube recommends That's how you make money in youtube rubbing. Are you rubbing in the fact that we don't have the discovery that youtube has? Yeah That's a whole other episode now wasn't invited on that one But but the fact matters you gotta you gotta play the game You know my clients My clients biggest excitement is that they now have a page at apple and now with latest things They now have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages at apple, you know, it's that it's that association What's the model? What is it that you're trying to do? You know find me at apple.com is worth for some people a lot more than your five dollar cpm If you didn't catch that paul's referring to the fact that apple updated their web presence And that your podcast now has an I guess apple.com URL But it it's as a playable as a player like you could send every episode has its own page every episode has its own page And if those episodes are keyworded correctly, they do really well then google search these do they I'm Do they you've tested that and And there's a link back to your website at the bottom of the episode page All right. Well, I'm really curious to see how this changes things That is why I do show full-on show notes for our weekly news on the car thing There is every article we talk about I have there is a link to the show notes They don't link back to you get one episode back to your website. No, no What I mean though is for the search ability is I am make sure that's And you know, we are I mean, that's always best practice no matter what year we're freaking talking about That was always best practice right good show notes like wake up like how more information you give the better it is And with google coming in we're going to see the same thing. Oh, yeah, google is going to do the same thing Oh, yeah, and I just found something that's depressing Um, if you've actually filled in the itunes summary field That's what they use if you don't They use your full show notes. Yeah, and so I've been following the rules and putting in my two sentence of description Thank you apple for making me want to smack somebody in the face now We're going down a different thing here, but I'll pull up a recent tim ferris episode and see how his pages look at apple So yours so the rule was how much could you put in an itunes summary? Well, you could put as much as you wanted to apple Recommended that it was 512 characters and some of the more reputable hosting platforms restricted you to that So now we're seeing people penalized Even by apple Apple will list a summary That is tremendous look up to any tim ferris episode recently like like they'll go long They'll go long. Um, they're not it's it's the classic case of apple saying one thing and and and doing another uh Tim's last episode has the The two sentences. Oh wait, there's a more button. Yeah, click the more button. There we go. Look at that All right, look at him. Good job tim So wait, you're just saying he shoved in a lot more to the itunes summary. He's not using our friends at libson um, who restrict the number and um, yes, they do. Yeah, there's there's an email in their box, but um, yeah, it But the game is this the game is this strategically for my clients Having the right keywords the right phrases in an apple.com with the strategically placed link that goes back to their website Is worth Infantessinably more than a five dollar dynamic turbo tax insert You know, and that's that's the game you got to look at and what happens is there's so many of us launch a podcast Hoping someone else will come up with a strategy, you know, just two dudes talking about stuff you know, well, um, that's never been a good plan and um, You know luminary is not going to fix that well luminary should pay me. Yeah, no, they shouldn't Your show sucks, you know, and no no no no andrew you've got good content You've got realistic stuff and you're trying to produce You know, you're trying to produce which is Significantly better than that a lot of the people looking for someone else to come up with a solution But what is the plan? You know, somebody opened up, uh, I might have mentioned this on on this episode But yeah, there's this hoity-toity fancy mall that opened up like two blocks two miles away from my house and somebody opened up in that mall a gourmet That's all say it together rice pudding store because if there's anything people want after the latest marvel movie is a bowl full of gourmet rice pudding and It didn't do well Wow, nobody's allowed to be surprised that it didn't do well You know and a lot of the podcast out there. We cannot be surprised that that they're not doing well It's just not that complicated A show that nobody wants to listen to you know, doesn't need the right ads to get better I'm sure that nobody wants to listen to needs to become a show that people want to listen to And so what you do is you build the show you build your plan You realize the landscape that you're playing in you realize the luminaries that we're going to pop up going to pop in There will be people are going to move luminary will introduce some sort of import your feeds feature Soon, you know and if your feeds are gone and I can't watch your show anymore It's out of sight out of mind and that's the last thing we want to be as a content producer We're all playing with our apple pages at this point Well, there's stuff there's stuff. Oh dave you just give me a call. There's there there's some really really fun stuff here Dave you happened to work at lips and what's going on with the uh The restrictions there any changes playing by the rule? Yeah, yeah, we're we're actually following what apple said to do. This is playing by the rules, but then got Well, we're not it's just one of those things and and I've heard I think rob has said this public Rob has said publicly rob has said publicly that um the itunes What's it even called summary summary tag is being de-emphasized? Yes in the future and now so that's a polite way of saying it's going away So so um except it's not except it's not so it'll still be there to cut It'll be it'll be there the same way. We love the subtitle your job. I don't know. Yeah Do I feel this? I don't know just put something in it and hit go Yeah so That's fun So what you're saying paul is the two guys one brain show? Not going to make not going to quit their day jobs in six weeks Right and nobody can be surprised by that Yes podcasting is not a quick game There is no quick game in podcasting and that's another thing of the talking of the blogging I don't know this whole uh original contract original uh content contract thing seems like a quick game If I can just be the problem is I I have to then study to become an actor You tell this doctor looking on tv No, I you you did tell us just I know because because the point of that is that that is also the long game Like the 1% well feral is anything where feral is a guy who just you know came out with this idea the last week Yeah, exactly What people hold themselves against other creators that have that even the overnight success right which is never a thing It's it's never a thing. There's a phrase. There's a I want to get this correct. It's a really good quote Don't compare your front stage with someone else's backstage That's it Well, and and we are running. I mean I see it every day You know, I may have had a person at libson or maybe one of my clients or whoever But they were struggling just to get their show up and running And still hadn't quite finished that step and they're like, all right next step monetization And I was thinking that is not no next step is build your audience That's the next step build your audience not step one Uploaded mp3 file step two make money. I was like, no, that's sorry. That's just not the way It's gonna work. So At least in 2019 That's what we tried to do So since we made this whole whole round essentially about The podcast everywhere and we're really looking at the latest news that have sparked that debate luminary Where are we landing on that? Well, here's my thing that I I I should probably throw in here as well. People ask me Radio public should I be on there? And I'm like, uh, let's see. It's free It might give you five 10 a hundred a thousand 3000 I doubt it but whatever it's going to give you more exposure Why wouldn't you want to be on there because their answer is why I want to be On the big ones and I'm like, you mean where there's 700,000 shows and nobody's going to be able to find you Where you could be on something that's small Uh paul on his last episode said if you hear of a new small directory Go over there quickly and add it and I was like, that's a really good point because The problem now is people can't find your show because there's too many and most search In apps blows So if you now are where do you want to be found in an app with 700,000 or an app with 7000 which is going to be You're a small fish. Do you want to be in a small pond or a big pond? Well, I just want to be found. I don't care where most dude You benefit a lot by being early to a platform. Oh, right like Podcasting right if they if you want to call the platform If you're new if you're original to youtube to twitter like instagram these people built up followings just by Having the chance to be there and not much else to be found. Well, you know, mr. Television Milton burl people talk about that guy like he was a genius. He was up against the test pattern You know, so it's like come on now um um There's a concept called affiliate marketing which is basically online commission sales Can I make money with that? Yeah, the the thing about affiliate the thing about affiliate marketing that's interesting is affiliate marketing scales because you can get software that runs it As opposed to having interview sales people and that type of thing Um, I was promoting a product that that made me a $997 commission By the way, you can buy that product at no, um, I love these headphones. So it's HTTPS And what was funny was a guy Who I did a contract with Okay, um Published my stuff in his ebook We had a falling out He left it in his ebook and after the falling out where he called me a lot of things online And I hope he's not watching, you know, I made over $10,000 by him cashing my content You know, and I made 10 you know, I didn't even necessarily like him to have it but those checks kept coming You know, and that that's that's the you know, because the model was this long-term relationship With this company that would pay me this piece of the action And so this is a guy who didn't credit me. This is a guy who I had a bad relationship with This is a guy that I was not thrilled with but he kept my hyperlink You know, and I made over $10,000 in revenue from that And and this is this is the the the podcast Model, you know a good consulting contract one good consulting contract Is worth more than all of the stolen content that somebody's repurposed and put up at youtube You know, I was actually talking to the client yesterday about producing a five minute piece And we're going to do two things with we're going to put that actually be a three minute piece We're going to put that as an alexa daily update. Whoops alexa stop We're going to put that as a as a daily update And then we're going to let people put that segment on their podcast because there's so many podcasters in this space We're looking for content to add to the podcast. They'll just have her voice in the middle of it And um, you know, this model is fantastic So she's going to give this content to potentially thousands of people are going to put potentially thousands of places But they're all going to come back and buy her products and services This is the model that we're playing with this is the the free world that we're playing with and if we just get above the You know Dynamic insertion of turbo tax and just get a little bit more creative We could do really really cool stuff and luminary might help us and there's the thing I'm going to be in podcasting much longer than luminary is Fire I mean there's also it sounds like Andrew there's some ethical and Moral issues that come into play like if you just don't want to be part of a platform because you don't agree with their model or Or what? I mean even people saying hey, they didn't ask me right? They didn't ask me. So I'm I'm opposed. I mean it's It's not a business decision You know like pocketcast and stuff like that. They've just and that's that's and that's why I say for me I I get I have internal conflicts is because They obviously make money pocket. I guess is a pretty yeah, I because you have to buy the app. Yeah Michael on there helps that in inverted commas How much is difficult to say but you know it that's why I say I struggle with this but I think As I said earlier, I think that my fundamental problem is understanding what I think we should be doing with the podcast and agreeing that with the with the chap I podcast with What do we want to achieve with the podcast? Are we achieving what we want to achieve? And that's it and we're fine. That's everything's cool with that Or do we want to achieve something different? And if we want to achieve something different How are we gonna go about that and because we're we're grown-ups. We need to act like it I always think about I mean like in the meantime because people Dave's if Dave sees anything He sees people who who come to him to start a podcast and a year later. They're still they're gonna start that podcast Like what are you doing in the meantime? Like How long is it gonna take you to figure out that strategy? Like, you know, I mean you can always Pull up pull off of a platform. I mean you don't want to then find an audience and then go away I mean that's an issue too. I guess it's it's it's deciding of it's deciding between do I want to Find the audience and leave them or do I want to then just keep them waiting? Like maybe I'll show up there someday. I don't know. It can be a tough call in the meantime There's a lot of in the meantime with content creators Yeah, and it's also you're being british. We don't you know See think that people thousands of people are waiting to listen to us anyway So, you know, we're all busy being a bit too self-conscious and everything So there's self-confidence in there as well which Looking at how we've grown in three and a half years We should be getting over a bit again pretending to be an adult about these things The uh, I just got done watching a documentary on HBO. It came out last year on gary shantling It's called the zen diaries of gary shantling. It's really good Judd apatow and they have the actual journals that he had because he died. I don't know how many years ago But it wasn't that long ago and we could have played we could have played is he dead But because I yeah, we could wrong. I might have got that wrong spoiler alert Where's your buzzer dave? They go through um Many it shows how he was doing stand-up comedy Well, first he had to figure out. Did he want to be a comic and then he just kept doing Comedy and he was funny But he hadn't really figured out like his thing which eventually ended up being him talking about relationships But it took him years to figure that out. So that's where I kind of just tell people You know, don't just wing it and be two guys with one brain and we're just going to talk about whatever But you know have something you want to say and then start saying it you'll probably eventually find your your voice All right, cool. Well, let's wrap up. I want to know one final thing from everyone um Andrew thanks for being here. Let us know where we can find The one podcast. I guess that hopefully it'll be a url Because if it's not a two Yeah, but you only get one we'll give you two Well, we go we know we can go to the one place and you can find both of them Well, that's I've listened. There you go. I've listened to people. There we go All right, so that but first I want to know um, where Have you found have you resolved anything? What's next for you on this on this be everywhere issue? Yes, I have resolved that I need to go away and think about what to do what What is to happen with the podcast? What is the plan for the podcast because until I just become very clear through thanks to everybody here chatting through with this with me If if we can't work that out Doesn't matter what anything else is because we will just be headless chickens Well outside of your ethical issues Yes Can I make one small point for andrew when it's your turn? No, I'm kidding. Yes But if your plan was to have friend have have fun with your friend and talk about tech news You've won. You've already you don't have to make money with you. Sorry. That's exactly no That's exactly what I wanted to say as well is it sounds like I am Unhappy with my podcast. I love Yeah getting on the call with my friend every week and I love speaking to people in the motoring world who Amazingly made these amazing people in high-up positions who say yes, let's talk to this lonely bloke in his house And he can release a podcast episode on it and that is Fabulous I could not have had this opportunities that I get and the people I get to visit The stuff I get to do the cars I get to try the places I go to If it wasn't for this podcast, I am not unhappy with the podcast. It is just thinking Maybe there's we could do more with it. That's where it's coming from well, and if if I could suggest to you that um I've always said there are two types of people in this world You know those who want to pay you money and those who don't Focus on the ones who do everybody's like, well, what if I get ripped off? Well, somebody wants to pay you money focus on them Um, I would say uh for your podcast there are two types of people in this world Those who want to listen to you those who don't You know and if you're truly doing this like Dave said to hang out with a friend then for the love of all You know definitely be everywhere because there's somebody who wants to listen to you and can't because on luminary you're not doing them an injustice Yep All right. I'm sorry red Not at all. I am curious that makes me think where do you Where do you draw the line where what would what would prevent you from being In somewhere what what luminary What could they be doing or would they do where you're like, okay? I don't actually suggest you be there I think we covered this with paul I think you already said I mean outside of I mean no stats. We're not gonna get stats, but we are now right Can't tell they if they started promoting things that were my direct competition Really because doesn't stitcher like stick ads in your content like that are now you have nothing to do with But then I'd advertising for like stitcher university where we teach you how to podcast Do you know that you're monitoring it? I'm not monitoring, but I I know every podcast consultant on the planet There's about a new four ones every week. It's like So that's when I would go. Hmm. Maybe I don't want to you know, I always think it's interesting when people That say we will announce your name On the show all you have to do is give us 20 bucks and then people like their competition We'll go over and go here list my name on your show from like, hmm Didn't think about that youtube. I mean you can advertise against Channels that are just like yours for you have a class and you advertise against all the people who are teaching how to do video It happens. It's constant. I mean, it's actually a good strategy That's where youtube makes all their money is by introducing you to your competition That's it. That's where all the money is in youtube You just gotta be better you'll be better in the competition. No Or pay money Pony up. That's what facebook wants you to do Yeah, um Back to that though, Dave So if it hurts your bottom if it hurts your business model, that's when you're drawing the line That's what i'm drawing the line. Yeah, and that sounds like in some cases That's what some people are doing at luminary. They think it's hurting their business models. All right Or I think when they weren't sure if the downloads are being counted. That's when they went hold on a second because I don't the other thing i'm dying to that that will be another stat that comes out I'm hoping soon We're all kind of like all these people are going to be going to luminary and i'm like do are are they really People don't switch. I don't think they can swoot and pod coin and i'm like really because You will pry overcast from my cold dead hands That said that said hasn't spotify seen some success here. Haven't don't we see numbers where they're getting good uptake I think it's a new listeners though. Okay. They're getting the young instill. We want that. Yeah I want people who aren't listening but people like I said people don't use two or three different podcast apps, right? So You're saying I won't leave but if you wanted one of those original content shows you might get an app Just to listen to that one show. I got hulu to watch The maintenance thing that's one of the reasons why I chose that over youtube tv or what i'm not a pain though The maintenance thing. Yes Yeah, no free advertising. They're sorry to be very generic Uh, okay cool. Andrew. Did you tell us the website? Uh motringpodcast.com motoring I'm both podcasts and how to follow us on social medias and not like Awesome very cool. All right, Dave Be everywhere. Where are you worry on that? Uh for me In my particular instance, I am everywhere I can be so because I want people to Come back to school of podcasting.com there. I port the domain into the answer So that works that works for me And if you had nothing to sell but you didn't like the way to sell Because you haven't I mean Even always had something to sell Because podcast is still on there because you wanted to sell stuff. Maybe you did Actually, I did. Oh, well, the funny thing is The reason I started the school of podcasting is the exact reason I tell people not to start a podcast and that was I needed money quickly Yeah, which is why during the first thousand years of the school of podcasting. That's why I was audit I was editing audio. I was playing in a band. I was giving guitar lessons. You name it I was uh, I think for a year that's might have been when I was a janitor of my church Yeah, so at the early days of the school of podcasting because nobody knew what it was And I'm like, hey, you want to start a podcasting like what's a podcast? I'm like, uh So overnight success. Yeah All the fame podcaster Dave Jackson Co-host of the podcasters roundtable which I just watched your speech again because I think you just put it on youtube He gave the round people a shout out man. I almost cried. Well speaking of you know, people stealing your video Yeah, that's not entirely a legal copy of that speech But everybody keeps asking me like why isn't this on your youtube channel? I'm like All right, I'll just I don't know how it got there, but it's there now. So I don't I mean I don't know the movement has always let us take our own stuff and put it up. That's what I figured Yeah, they've always been cool with that. So and I waited a year. So yeah your um, Statue of limitations run out. So you're good. You're wrong. Yeah Awesome, Dave. Where should we check out the school? Find me out at you could either go to school of podcasting.com or power of podcasting.com Oh, that's a network. That's the network. That's Dave's 80. What are we 84 shows paul 85 tomorrow 89 Actually, I'm killing one. So What are you killing? Are you really I was going to start a podcast To test pod bean, but you're killing it before you started it There's two episodes out now My favorite podcast is net two listeners. They're gonna be crushed. I know they're and both of them were me. So Put it on anchor That's it 21 cents not 19. That's it one sense Not 19 21 cents. Yeah, not 19. You're gonna be rich. All right paul. Hey, thanks for joining us once again t-shirts in the mail The podcast report.com Very cool. Where are you on the be everywhere? I think if you can't tell by now Be everywhere. Yeah all right and Right, where are you? Now, my opinion doesn't count. I'm just No, no, no, no, I mean not all I will say is that there's there's nowhere that You can't find the round table that I That I am purposely keeping it away from right So I I don't monitor these things close enough to be honest with you Like I if to say I don't care is to be a little callous I don't care that much like I'm not going to make it I don't make extra effort to find new places to put the round table and I don't care who picks it up So, you know, I just want people to listen and you would think that mean I'd care about Putting extra effort, you know, what is daniel site podcast places.com You should go there. I always tell people. Hey once you're in the top five. I have an infographic for that Of course, it does change Then you should work on that not all of the same time But put yourself in new places you you'll be amazed what you'll find over at podcast places There's so many places to be even niche is specific. You might fit into a niche specific place and um Yeah, I haven't done that a long time But it is one way to grow your show people always want to how do I grow my show get in a new place Where there's people listening and and they'll find you so Um, yeah, I'm cool. I do what you want people steal my stuff. I don't whatever have fun Uh, it's hard enough to be a content creator, let alone the police so If you could play us out to a police song, Dave, that would be very um, very helpful, but otherwise Yeah, now we know we're definitely getting this show pulled down Despite that horrible tone that paul does hit Uh, if you're watching if you're listening with earbuds We don't apologize. All right next time Number 130 we'll keep a roundtabling on and uh podcast is roundtable.com Jump off from there subscribe to the youtube smash the button if that's what you're into. Oh, sorry. I went all you I don't smash buttons, but hey, this is how we end the video. All right We're soon to be on luminary We're there already Contract is coming It's gonna be amazing And uh, then you'll only be able to find us there. So take it while you can Sign up podcast roundtables dot com slash guest if you want to fill andrew's little box there And if you don't know what I mean, you should be watching on youtube or the roundtable podcast roundtable.com See you next time wave. Goodbye. I'll stop talking. It doesn't matter at this point