 Once upon a time team members met had healthy working relationships Sorted out their differences to work towards delivering a project the way of working was largely based on a waterfall model with well-defined linear processes The team it is new exactly what was happening and had full control over who was to do what within the project teams The word Calibration had a different meaning in this way of working and then something strange happened Then came agile when and with agile came an unprecedented need to collaborate and communicate Agile has redefined what teamwork really means Agile has redefined what collaboration really means and agile has redefined what leadership really means And in light of these changes. I'm here to talk about What has and needs to change in our understanding of this leadership role and how it should operate in agile teams today? Based on my many years of experience as an agile coach and working with people in this leadership roles I can tell you that this is one area the leadership area that Most people are struggling with most we as a community are struggling with that the most So today I'm going to cause a little bit of disruption by challenging some of the thinking that has been around for a while But first Let's start on a happy note What I'd like you to do is have a good think about what really makes you happy What gets you motivated in life? And while you're thinking about this will run this as an exercise after all it's an agile session So I'll need two volunteers for this exercise. Please quickly come up to volunteers A big round of applause for our volunteers, right? So I Came in from Melbourne and the the flight from Melbourne is quite long to get here and I was getting bored in my flight And I thought what I'll do is I'll make a list of things as factors that I think will make the audience in this room happy Right, so I had to go at guessing the kind of things that make you guys happy And what I want to do and here's the list by the way What I want to do is validate these with you guys One by one and I'll call out each factor that I think will make you guys happy and For every factor that you agree with All you have to do is go yay Yes, I know this is one of the last sessions, but you've had enough to eat right yay Yeah, right so one by one and what do the volunteers do? You guys have a very important role For the level of noise that these guys make you guys decide if these are Guys that these guys are really happy about the factors that make them happy Right and once you have decided that those are the factors or by the way when you don't have when you're not happy with any Of those you just stay silent for for the factors, right for the ones that you decided that there There are factors that make these guys happy What you've got to do is use that blue tag there Stick two of these and then just put it up on the wall so that we have complete transparency of what we have discussed as a team And then decided as a team as to what things make us happy. Are we all in it? Yep, we want to get started Yep, right So you guys know what to do. I think you need to move up here. Just let's come up here So we'll put it up here using those blue tag there, right? So The first one here is Achieving something just use the blue tag there and we've got to be agile with these things very quickly. We'll have to put it up Trust in people around us You want to try that again? Does having trust in people around you make you happy? That's better being recognized being challenged and stimulated being rewarded being loved and respected guys Are you here or not? He's not even noticing yet. Does this make you happy? Yes, I'll take it easy. Yes a big nod Being punished There's always one. What do you know? Okay? I'll leave it to you to decide here, right? Making other people happy Sharing with others giving back good Being criticized No, it's up to the judges right not up to me being around happy people New Zealand winning their cricket World Cup on Sunday The reason I've got that is because I'm I'm from New Zealand I grew up in New Zealand and I'm a New Zealand citizen and I've always supported the all blacks and rugby and It's quite amazing that our country of 4 million people have made it to the World Cup in cricket And I think that is there to win right so we'll go for New Zealand on Sunday, right? I'll be at the MCG by the way I've got my flight tonight to make it in time for the flight on Sunday or for the final on Sunday Yeah, I know Knowing that we have support around us makes us happy Having hope and the last one always learning Right, okay. This is a good enough list for now what we will do is we'll treat this as a edge or less backlog or whatever And we'll we'll do is What we'll tweak it as we go touring the session, right? So that's a good enough list for now as things that make us happy. Are we all happy? Big round of applause for our Thank you guys Right Now let's bring this back to work if If you think about what really makes an agile team happy more to the point What makes an agile team happy now think about that What I would say to that is all these things here That we've identified as things that make an individual happy are the kind of things that make an agile team happy for example an agile team is happy when they're achieving something an agile team is happy when they're sharing with others and Learning from each other an agile team is happy when they're having hope and trust in people around the team an Agile team is happy when they know that they have the support around them to make progress an Agile team is happy when they're always learning stimulated and challenged all the time All right, so each and every item in here that we've said even though The New Zealand winning thing might not be applicable for everyone, but it is for us today, isn't it? So each and every Item that we've said make an individual happy are the same kind of things that make an agile team happy why Because an agile team is made up of individuals And without the individuals there is no team right, so as leaders and managers, we should always remember That we should never ever underestimate the power of individualism within the teams however We all know that teams don't just magically become happy motivated self-organized and engaged a Huge amount of effort goes into making them that way Here are a list of five common motivator tools That are commonly used by project managers and leaders all around the world to motivate their teams now Did anyone tell you that before the end of this session you'll lose half a kg? This is my contribution towards that. Can I get everyone to stand up, please? have a quick look at a good look at these five common motivator tools and What I'd like you to do is think about which one of those five would you rank as highest as the most effective in Terms of motivating the teams that you currently come from think about the work environments You come from the teams that you come from if you went to rank one of these as the number one Which one would you rank as highest of all in terms of effectiveness for motivating the teams you come from today? So if you believe that providing clear goals is the number one motivator You may sit down now If you believe that providing interpersonal support is the number one motivator you may sit down now If you believe that providing rewards and incentives is the number one motivator you may sit down now Wow Okay, if you believe that providing support for making progress is the number one motivator you may sit down now Hmm For the people who are still standing. I'm assuming that you're saying that providing recognition for good work is the number one motivator If that's the case you may sit down now Wow, and there are some people still standing what I you don't have the chairs. That's a not a nice problem There's some chairs here come to the front. I won't make you dance or sing Come on come on to the front. I don't like people standing and and and and their chairs around Yeah, so come on this way. So this is good. We're building a repo now. I'm getting to know you guys I know how you think and operate now. So I'll get back to the motivators in a minute Let me show you this first In a 1968 issue of the Howard business review Frederick Herzberg Published a now classic article called one more time. How do you motivate employees and? His message back then to us was back in 1968 before I was born People are most satisfied and therefore most motivated in their jobs When as part of their jobs they get a constant opportunity to experience achievement So based on Herzberg's lesson or theory Providing support for making progress should be the number one motivator Yet most leaders and managers have not taken Herzberg's lesson to heart In fact just about three years ago about 300 project managers and leaders all around the world We asked this exact same question to rank these five motivator tools in order of effectiveness And when I'm talking about project managers and leaders I'm talking about anyone who's in the power of influence who can do something to motivate their teams in their in their organizations people like technical leads scrum masters iteration managers team leaders those kind of people and Surprisingly a vast majority of them said that Providing recognition for good work is the number one motivator And we saw similar trends in this room What was more alarming was of the trend and even in here in this room providing support for making progress less than 5% Less than 5% people said that that's number one In fact people thought that this is dead last of all five Yes Recognition is important as well However without much work achievements There is little to recognize and as managers and leaders We need to make sure that we are focusing on the right things and the progress principle has clear implications for us As to where our efforts should lie should always remember that achievements come before recognition and Then support for making progress will make achievements much easier I'll tell you a little story as Part of my role at IBM. I'm the agile capability lead for Asia Pacific and I do a lot of work all around the Region here, and I go to China quite a lot and every time I go to China My kids are looking forward to me being back home all the time. It's not because they miss Papa Yes, it's because of all the goodies that they will get back from China Right, so after a couple of visits, I started running out of options as to what to bring back from them from China for them After a while the Hello Kitty bags and the novelty chopsticks are not so novel anymore So I started running out of options as to what to bring back from the from China for them So last time when I was going I thought okay, I'll do something agile I'll ask the product owners as to what they really want and in this case the product owners owners are my kids Right, so who's better to tell me what they want so before I left I thought instead of agonizing in the markets in China I'll know what to get before I go. So I asked my four-year-old son. What do you want from China this time? And he gave me clear instructions clear and explicit three words remote control helicopter All right, I thought that's good. That's gonna be easily sorted. I'll sort that out in no time and then I asked my six-year-old daughter ember ember. What do you want from China this time? And she goes Anything that's fun And I thought what do you mean by that? Oh, no, you'll know papa when when you look at it. It looks like fun. You buy it for me And I thought why do girls have to be so complex So anyway, I go to China and after a week of working as I do all the time leave the shopping to last So I had a two-hour window hit the markets And I remember all the acceptance criteria that they gave me remote control helicopter easily sorted in first five minutes Got it Now I'm thinking about the acceptance criteria that my daughter's given me when you look at it And it looks like fun. You buy it for ember and I'm thinking what am I gonna get and Then I remembered that she is in love with these guys and just by sheer fluke accidentally I spot this toy a Mini-chill Lego model of one of the minions And I thought this looks like fun. I'm sure she'll she'll like it So after a bit of haggling and negotiating I bought the toy and brought it home Gave it to ember and she's full of excitement, right? She opens it up immediately lays all the blocks on the floor starts playing with it And I'm thinking what a wonderful dad. I am I knew exactly what my daughter needs in once and Within two minutes There's a small problem She doesn't know where to start and I can find it This is the actual toy that I brought back from China This toy has got 200 pieces in it that's why it's called a miniature Lego model offer one of the minions and It was quite difficult for ember to pick up each of the pieces let alone fit two pieces together So all her excitement now anything but and she's walking away from the toy and I'm thinking what do I do? So so I thought I'll call her back ember ember come back come back and she comes back reluctantly So look at the photo What's your favorite part of the minion and guess which one was it which part was a favorite part of that minion? The eye, right? So I said, you know what let's just focus on building the eye bit first and I helped her see about all the gray blocks of 300 pieces so we found all the gray blocks and I left her to do all the just the eye bit and then within five minutes She got the item and now she's full of excitement again runs to mommy mom mom look I got the item I got the item and runs to her brother. Look. Look. This is the minions. I got the item I said ember ember come back come back She comes back. I said look at the arms. They look yellow and straight I'm sure you can do that in no time too and she starts doing the arms She puts the arms together in a couple of minutes and then Now part by part. She eventually puts the whole minion together And it was just those Incremental progress the achievement that she was experiencing that fed her motivation to complete the tasks those regular sense of achievement that kept her motivated Imagine if I had used one of the other motivator techniques If I had just provided moral support standing behind her ember you can do it ember you can do it Somehow I don't think that would have worked Or if I had said oh, you know ember once you finish this one this time next time when I go I'll get the other pair. So you have two of them That incentive I don't think would have worked either It was just those small wins Experiencing those small wins on a regular basis that fed that motivation to complete the task This is my favorite quote from dr. Martin Luther King jr. And I'm sure most of you are familiar with this one If you can't fly run if you can't run walk if you can't walk roll, but by all means keep moving This is so applicable form for all of the industries that we come from today We are all striving towards continuous delivery none of us here want to seem to be become stagnant and the fundamental way to Keep up with the emerging needs of our customers Evolving needs of our customers is to break up our work into the smallest of the chance and As leaders and managers what we want to do is continuously challenge our teams to make things smaller if they say it's small Challenge them to make it smaller still And if there's only one message that you want to take out of this session here today make it this one as Leaders and managers create an environment where small wins are celebrated and notice the difference in 2011 Amal Bell and Kramer deal a lot of work with 26 project teams all around the world in seven different countries and after Doing a lot of research with those people About two to three hundred people again across all of these projects They also concluded that of all things that can boost motivation and emotions The single most important is making progress in meaningful work as Part of their research what they did was asked each team member of these 26 project teams all around the world to Fill out one simple survey question before going home at the end of the day for the duration of the projects on a daily basis And the question was did you have a good day today or a bad day today and why? 12,000 diary entries were collated and Here's a summary of the results that they got back and From this here you can see that of all people who said that they had a good day on any day 76% of them indicated that they had a good day because they made a small progress in their day jobs They had a small incremental win There was no money involved no rewards no incentives no major revelations no money changed hands it Was just something that they achieved as part of their daily jobs That made them come back for more the next day It might just have been fixing a niggling bug That that made them more motivated to come back for more the next day made them happy about their jobs now the the challenge that we have here is How do we create an environment where our employees our team members are also as Motivated as engaged and wanting to come back for more the next day. What do we do as team leaders agile team leaders? with inspiration from the work by done by The power of small wins. What I've done is created a checklist To assist team leaders agile team leaders especially to adapt the behaviors and the Perspectives that are required to unleash their full potential of their agile teams And this checklist has got questions and answers questions around Things that make people think about their own perspective their own behaviors their own shortcomings right and Most importantly, it's to remind people to go back to the basics What really makes an agile team happy and this checklist is based around four key elements The catalyst and the nourishes are the ones that promote progress and The ones to avoid are inhibitors and toxins So I'll go through these four elements one by one for the rest of the session. So let's start with the catalyst As team leaders we need to make sure that we are comfortable and confident that we know that Every team member shares that common goal of the team Every team member knows how the task that they're currently working on How it's helping the team achieve that common goal every team member should file a feel safe to to try out new ideas and And most importantly every team member should have the courage to challenge others and To be challenged by others. I Can tell you that one of the most simplest yet practical tools that I've discovered in my time as an agile coach The simplest yet practical tools is a post-it note That's the best agile tool that I've found so far and I'll show you how you can use a post-it note to convert a setback into a catalyst for progress Given the scenario an agile team is having a stand-up meeting a Project manager is also present and as the teams giving updates the project managers scribbling raw notes to capture all the important things No one else in the team has any visibility of what's going into the notepad that the project managers got Can you imagine what that does to the dynamics of the team? That lack of visibility is creating a virtual barrier between the project manager and the team Because this is what the project managers thinking Someone's got to capture these important notes I'm accountable for this project. It might as well be me So I have to write it and this is what the team's thinking the team members are thinking Anything that I say may be used as evidence against me. I have the right to remain silent and they do The team members are more cautious about the kind of updates they're giving because they never know what will come back to bud them now How do you fix that problem? replace the notepad with the pack of stickies Post-it notes and get everyone who's raising an issue to write a sticky for every issue and then put it up on the wall Just like that so that it's highly visible and the information is radiating out to the team That does three things. Firstly, everyone knows Whether or not that kept the issue has been captured correctly or not Secondly, any one of the team members now can challenge that that issue is a real issue or not Because they can see what has been captured and The most important thing is instead of that issue being refrigerated in the project manager's notepad It now is radiated out to the team Encouraging the team to have a collective ownership of the problem. So complete transparency is the key Lack of transparency means you've got a huge inhibitor Talking about inhibitors reminds you of another story. I'll tell you a little story a Couple are having a coffee husband and a wife having a coffee and her phone rings And she answers the phone Hello Yeah, oh hi, how are you? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Oh dear. Oh, no Oh, when did that happen? Oh? shit, oh My god, that's really bad Yeah, did you talk to her now? I'll talk to her tomorrow. Okay, then. Oh, that's no good. Yeah. Okay, then bye She hangs up The husband was also having this coffee with her He's as curious as you guys are as to what was there all about and she are he asked her what was that all about? What happened? To which she goes on nothing, honey Nothing that should bother us right now and continues having the coffee Now I'll translate this to a team scenario edge all team a Customer raises a defect The product owner approaches the scrum master to talk about the defect and then after a little bit of discussion They decide that this defect is not important enough for it to go into the current iteration It can go to a subsequent iteration for the team to fix later So the product owner not more wanting to make this a big deal for the team logs that in his private backlog And keeps it with himself and walks away Now one of the developers on the floor overheard some of this conversation. So approaches the scrum master to What was that all about? What did he say? To which the scrum master says oh, it's no big deal. Nothing that should bother you right now It's something that will fix later. So you focus on what's important right now. Isn't that normal? What's happening in both of these scenarios? The coffee scenario and the defects scenario We are seeing that there is a lot of control over information In the coffee scenario the husband's thinking She doesn't trust me with anything She doesn't even want to share what her best friend told her I'm never ever gonna come back to have a coffee with her again And in the defects scenario, this is what the developers thinking This scrum master scrap He doesn't want to want to share what the product owners just told him. How can he trust us with our code? However, back to the coffee scenario. This is what the wife's thinking This is our coffee time. I Want to enjoy my coffee with my hubby right now. There's nothing more important than enjoying this coffee with my hubby I'll tell him later as to what happened Let's enjoy this coffee now and then in the defects scenario What's the scrum master thinking? Scrum master saying my sole reason for existence in this world is to protect my team So that they don't get distracted by other things I need to protect them from all distractions and make sure that they're focusing on the current iterations work the things That are most important to them right now. I need to protect my team so in both of these scenarios We see that there is a perceived lack of trust and That's what I'm all about. We need to be as managers and leaders Careful about how we are perceived Even though we may be trying to help it's those kind of things that may let us down So it's important to remember that the import the the agile teams thrive when they're trust-based Not control-based Let's get back to my post-it now thing my favorite tool I've got lots of them in my bag by the way. I carry them everywhere all on the world Each one of us has got an invisible post-it note on our foreheads Every human being on earth has got that with the letters mm fi Can anyone tell me what mm fi means? involved close Yes, I borrowed that from Mary Kay Ash make me feel important We should never ever forget this when we are dealing with people All human beings it's no secret we want a need to feel important We want to be We want to feel appreciated We want to be appreciated for whatever we do and it is no secret that Teams individuals produce better results when they're working on something That they know is going to be valued and appreciated by someone else Can I ask here how many people here work with? Timebox iterations or sprints? most of you right and you guys have Many rituals in the iterations like the planning meeting on day one of the iteration. Yes That's one ritual the daily stand-ups. That's another ritual and towards the end. You've got the product review That's another ritual. Yeah, so you've got multiple rituals. Let me make a humble request Add in a purposeful ritual called the appreciation session and it only takes five minutes In your iterations and The way I do do it in the teams that I coach is every Friday I get everyone to stay back for five minutes regardless of the team size stay back for five minutes after the daily stand-up on Friday and Get everyone to complete one sentence. I would like to thank x4 whatever Go around the team and everyone falls out like for example I would like to thank John for refreshing the test databases yesterday so that I now can Test all the complex financial scenarios John now knows what he thought was work that was being taken for granted is being valued By someone else is being appreciated by someone else is valuable for someone else So John is now more Motivated to do that again in the future with the team of ten people just one sentence around it's not gonna take even five minutes Better still go back to my post-it notes get everyone to write one sticky with one sentence Instead of calling out just write it put it on the wall like this and in your team area Just have an area called appreciation wall and every Friday just replace the stickies that were there with the ones that are new Right, so what this does is radiates the information out to the world Not just within your teams as to what this team is up to Increases the profile of your projects and who's being appreciated for what at least within your teams So all the sea levels all the project Delivery managers anyone else executives who are walking past your team They get attracted to the appreciation wall and they have a look at what you guys are doing and What you guys are appreciating of each other's efforts from within the team at least and What this increased visibility will do is for the people whose names are not there this week this Friday Next Friday, they will lift their games up so that their names go up there and then end that with a round of applause And a prose goes a long way talking about applause is Reminds me of another story you want another story, but you would you want another story? Yes, okay No one's screaming. So I'll just carry on telling stories two years ago about two years ago. I was assigned to coach a team that had been running for a while in Brisbane and They were working to a fixed scope with fixed time frame and There were about 25 people running for about 18 months and they're a lot under a lot of pressure and I Got in on Dave one of the floor They're all co-located in Brisbane and as any coach will do wanting to make an impression So on day one, I'm looking for all the law-hanging fruits So that I can make an impression saying oh you fix that fix that fix that did that for the whole day They made a list and then around four o'clock. I went back to my desk. I Thought I'll now check all the emails and things that I've missed out on to catch up So while I'm checking checking my emails I'm just busily sitting up down and all the 25 people around me are all heads down bumps up doing their work and And then all of a sudden all 25 people are up on their feet giving a huge round of applause and then went back to continue working And I looked around seeing what had happened couldn't see anything unusual And then just carried on working and then five to ten minutes later. It happened again Everyone around me. We're up on their feet giving a huge round of applause and then they went back to good working again And then I'm thinking I'm becoming a bit curious now. I'm thinking it might be something to do with me so Look around nothing unusual Okay, it's weird Then just before five it happens for the third time So now I couldn't help myself asked the lady next to me and said what was this these round of applause is for? What's all this? Oh That's just when someone leaves the team to go home before five we give them a round of applause and Okay, why? Oh Just so that they realize that they're leaving a team behind to do all the work Now anyone who leaves to go home before five is humiliated with the round of applause and The worst part of this story is that that behavior that practice was endorsed by their team leaders To me that was a toxin Imagine how the members of the team were feeling if they had to leave before five for M in emergency If they had a genuine reason Some might even consider not leaving and staying back just to avoid that humiliation And you can imagine how productive these guys are who are just staying back till five to avoid that humiliation So applauses are great when they're used as a nourisher But not so good as a toxin we all Have some good qualities and some perhaps not so good qualities after all we all humans Here's a list of 14 common Weaknesses that most of human beings have What I'd like you to do is be true to yourself This exercise this session is the last exercise of this session So let's make the most of it What I'd like you to do is pick three of these 14 weaknesses that relates most to you that resonates most with you pick three biggest weaknesses that you have from this list and Don't get too depressed We won't share your weaknesses with anybody else. It's just for your own benefit So pick three numbers and when you're ready just go. Yay I'm waiting to go Excellent don't get too depressed like you said it's for your own benefit the next bit's more fun Right, I'll tell you about my biggest weaknesses. I'm number three very stubborn. I'm number six. Sure. I believe it or not Yeah, I'm 13 indecisive That's what my wife tells me anyway, so we're ready to move on excellent so now look at this because I'm Stubborn, I'm dedicated because I'm shy. I'm reflective because I'm indecisive. I'm patient hidden in each of our strengths is Hidden in each of our weaknesses is a hidden strength and the message here is quite simple Don't try and fix your weaknesses instead embrace your hidden strengths so I Use this as a team-building exercise when forming new agile teams and it's not just applicable for agile teams When teams are new no one knows each of the strengths and weaknesses, right? So what do you do is? Have a open discussion with all the people saying let's talk about our strengths and weaknesses from this list here or from any other list and You've got a well-oiled agile machine when every team member knows where to go for where to go to with a particular strength or weakness When every member knows who to help with a particular Weakness who to go to for a particular strength. That's when you have a well-oiled agile machine And as leaders we need to be careful that when we're putting a team together We don't want everyone with the same strengths in the same team You need to have a broad horizon of strengths within the team But when it comes to values You've got to have a huge overlap in the people that you've got in the team who need to share the same values For example for this exercise to work what you need is people who genuinely trust each other who are genuinely transparent and Respect each other then only you can open up to share your weaknesses and strengths with everybody else Trust transparency and respect all of these are agile values anyway. So finally to wrap up I'd like to point back to this thing here This checklist that I've created We all know that there are team leaders and managers amongst us that are still struggling With establishing the habits that are required to move from our teams to become good to great Awareness is of course the first step however Turning this awareness into routine action takes a lot of discipline and I've created this checklist To help the team leaders self-assess and look at themselves their own behaviors and Think of all the elements that they can use or to avoid To help them unleash the full potential of the agile teams. So you can download this checklist today from the IBM comm website Using that URL and I urge each and every one of you to start using this checklist Immediately and if you are not in a team leader project manager row Print it out and give it to the team leader or the project manager or the scrum master in your teams and I can assure you that you will at least start Becoming aware of the key elements that need addressing to unleash the full potential of your age all teams Thank you Shinsen opinions. There's no answers. I only have opinions Go back one You'll get the slides. Oh Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. I have to race all the way to the end now So no questions That's surprising did I answer everything? Oh That one's first just hold the thought. Yeah. Yes Very good question. I find that What a really matured agile Organization will do is empower people to vote out people Empower people to vote out teams. I've been in teams where the scrum master was voted out And that's from master was the the biggest blocker And you know that was me. I was a scrum master that was voted out as part of a retrospective. They said Like what's going well or good calibration good communication all this kind of fluffy things. What's not going so well deep? What do we need to change get rid of him? so And that highlighted to me that I was a micromanager This was about 10 years ago when I first started doing agile is I was micromanaging my team to Say oh, this is agile I need to get daily stand-ups and and updates from you and all that kind of thing and that sort sort of caused so many issues for the team and You've got to empower people to highlight that issue agile will not fix the problems. It's good at highlighting at least, right? So I've had many team members voted out and they don't just leave the organization There are stars in other teams in the same organization So it might just be the team dynamics and that's what you need to play with Yes Yes, yeah, that's a good Good Situation where you're presenting where not everyone needs to know everything However, if they wanted to know about anything This is the culture that we want to create is every single aspect of the project is easily visible From any place in the project team or even on SharePoint or Wikipedia or whatever It should be something that's easily accessible, right? So you don't have to spend a lot of time saying oh, yeah They were talking about this and they talked about this and this is why they were raising it It should be somewhere where for example classic one is risks Risks for projects now. I see that there are several Organizations that have a client-facing report or an external report for the risks and there is risk for the internal project team, right now Why do we have to have two sets of risks? It's one project same team same stakeholders everything the the smell here is Someone's not matured enough to be open and transparent about all the risks for the project, right? so that's when you will start hiding things and It's it's what you need to fix is not how you deal with how to hide and how to show is fix that Underline overarching problem of lack of maturity in the transformation to a job So once you highlighting things these kind of issues will show up, right? So what will happen the watermelon projects? Will disappear It's either red or green not green on the outside red on the inside So all of that comes with maturity and it comes with time So if is we strive towards getting there with increasing visibility Then there's a lot of hurdles that you will come across and it's it's all gonna be Something that you'll have to work through one by one. Yeah Any others? Yeah Yeah, that's a It's almost like a meaning of life question there one. I I think What one one of the things that we have started doing? With most of the clients that I work with is having self or long-lived teams So you don't find people it's like married couples, right? This is they click or they don't click Right, so you can't force people to trust each other in a team, but once you've got a team that's humming Don't discipline them after a project finished keep them together Keep them intact so that the next project they pull it's a pool system to the team rather than push So once you've found that magic Team don't discipline them bring projects to them But there's no magic answer to how to force people to trust each other I wish I knew that Yeah, any others? Yeah, sorry you need to mark is there Mike here It's too noisy Maybe give it a good question. I was expecting that I prepared for that one Now this is the classic answer, you know the edge of manifesto has got four lines This over that this is more important than this. This is more important than this Yes, so of all of the motivators that were there five motivators clear goals providing support for making progress rewards and incentives recognition and interpersonal support of all these five which is more important and I said that providing support for making progress was the most important Now what I didn't say was the others were not important Those are important too, but this is more important than the other ones It's just like the manifesto, right? So the things on the left are more important than the things on the right We're not saying that things on the right are not important, right? So customer calibration over documentation Documentations are important as well. It's the same thing here. All of these are important But start with support for making progress and then use all the other ones subsequently Yes Yes So all of that Goal setting is is the easier one of the lot Support for making progress you'd have to do throughout the journey Right, we should wrap up because it's opening up now. So thanks for your time. I had fun. I hope you guys had too