 Welcome to Reader Syndicate 3.0, the next evolution of the look into counterculture that is Canada. My name is Matthew, owner of Riot Seeds, and this started as a one-man mission for strain history and breeding science. Over time, it's evolved into something bigger, better, and more of a team effort. We will be joined by members of the Cannaluminati and other friends throughout the seasons to hear their takes on grow techniques, breeding science, strain history, and more. Our mission is to combat the narrative that corporate cannabis and seed posters are obfuscating for their own financial benefit. Welcome to the Underground. We are the Syndicate. Welcome to Breeders Syndicate. I'm Matt, here with my co-host, Thousandfold, and our constant stay guest, Mr. Farmer. Now you can see his face, too. Wait, I'm supposed to cuss in the game. Hold on. Hold on. You're not allowed to cuss in the first 30 seconds. All right. Welcome to Breeders Syndicate. I'm Matthew, here with my co-host, Thousandfold, and our friend Farmer Dan, who's been a mainstay on the show. Welcome, my friends. Today, we're going to be talking kind of revisiting our cookies, breeding with cookies, and the dead ends of cookies, and whether it is a breeding dead end or not. I decided, and actually we kind of, as a group, decided to revisit this a little bit. I was rewatching the episode that we did, and I think it was super informative at the beginning, but there's a few narratives that got spun in it that just don't ring true. And I tried to kind of put that out there during the episode while we were recording it, but it doesn't seem like it was heard very well. And now, like, I'm seeing stuff pop up on social media that XYZ is responsible for cookies and this and that, and it's just not true. And of all things that we want to do with this show is combat misinformation. Like, first and foremost, it's not good. It's the opposite of our mission to make it about an ego thing. Like, I'm responsible for this, this, and this, and no one else. You know, like, all that is the opposite of what we want to do, and it is our biggest episode. And it was a hard decision, but we're going to go ahead and redo it, reshoot it, and try to keep it as accurate as we can for the time being. And again, if things change, we'll do another one, you know, as much as all of us are kind of sick of talking about cookies and all of its derivatives. It's a necessary thing, and it just seems like people only heard the last, I don't know, a few minutes of the episode. So with that, Thousand, you want to kick it off and tell them where we're taking it? Yeah. So I think where we start is looking at the major components, at least that we are aware of, of cookies. So I think out of F1 Derb, Cherry Pie, GDP, Purple Urkel, and OG Kush, maybe we start with the F1 Derb. What do you think that? Okay. So the F1 Derb is a very unique plant. It was not passed around a lot. There's a lot of debate, be it from Kenny Flowers of Powers. He says that he's never passed the cut, but we know like he does it early. He has other people make seeds for them, so of course he has to pass the fucking cut. But, you know, there was a guy named Cookie Monster who kept the F1 Derb for a long time, and he was responsible for the F1 Derb account on Instagram. And that's the exact cut that we have in the circle. Yeah, it's a unique cut. It obviously has a lot of the structure that you see in cookies, the really unique structure. The bubbly bracts, very specifically. The knobby look that Cookies has comes from a lot of the F1 Derb stuff. It's debatable on whether it's an S1 or not. Again, it's one of those things where we just won't know. There is another cut called, we called the Derbin Bay or the Bay Derbin that CSI got from Green Dragon, I think five, six years ago. And he was growing them side by side because we've been doing our F1 Derb projects together. And he was growing them side by side and thought somebody screwed up the cut because in veg they were so identical that he was sure someone screwed up, like one of his workers screwed up the cut. So he was all pissed off and then they start flowering and they're almost identical looking except one is green and one is a deep black purple. There's differences in the Terp profiles, but we'll see over time like how, you know, acclimatizing and being in the same room over time being fed the same stuff over time. We'll see how much those Terp profiles like either get, you know, similar or if they break further apart or they stay where they're at. But as of right now, it seems like one is a descendant of the other, one is a sister of the other, bag seat of the other, hybrid of the other. We just don't know. It's a really, really unique cut. And as much as I've always taken what Cookie Fam says with a grain of salt, because none of them are braiders, barely any of them are growers. It does seem to hold true that F1 Derb is a major component of forum cookies proper and probably thin mint as well. So yeah, I don't know, Dan, what do you have any takes on F1 Derb at all? I've never even had a chance to see it. I've never come across the clone. I've got more thoughts on the next few. So one other thing I'll add is this is one of the main reasons I'm redoing the show to is that, you know, there were some rumors going around that the anus cut. So you can call what you want. I call it the anus. Is the mother or is F1 Derb? Yeah, there's no relation. When that claim was made, the person who made that claim had never smoked, grown, seen F1 Derb. So it was kind of a bold claim. But going off what me and CSI have seen, there's no way. It's just not, it's just not there. Anus does look like a Mendo-Purps type, whether F1 Derb is a Mendo-Purps type or not unknown. It's very different looking than F1 Derb. I'm sorry, than Mendo-Purps. Yeah, I'm going to leave it there. That's, that's one of the, I can't believe how fast that spread. And when I'm a part of something that's misinformation, I got to cut it. Yeah, with that one, I don't feel like it was ever like explicitly said too, because I kind of filled that gap in myself as well and thought that for a few months there, where I was just like, oh, I don't think he wants to say it out of like humility or something, but like, I completely fell into that trap too. Yeah, and in fairness, like I got to watch from behind the scenes how that narrative started evolving. And it started with like, hey, I think someone else saying, hey, I think this Mendo-Purps is in cookies. And then it just kind of slowly evolved into connecting this dot and string and dot and string. Yeah, but without actually any additional data points. Yeah, zero data points, no more grows, no more flowers, no more nothing else that Anus cuts not around to be even compared now. Like there's a whole lot of stuff that was missing from that. Yeah, that data point. So I'd rather stick to what we know and what we've seen and what we've experienced. And I've actually grown F1 Derb, sourced it very early on, used it, bred with it, ran the plants from it, the progeny, chased it back down via frostboss and stony rest in peace. Yeah, I mean, it takes growing stuff, smoking it, learning about it, their progeny, their supposed progeny to really try to make educated conclusions on stuff like that. Just saying it and isn't enough. And that's probably where I'll leave the F1 Derb conversation after now. I do want to ask you one more thing Matt, which is, what was your anecdotal experience with it? Like, I'm not asking you to obviously make any claims, but maybe like, you know, what are your speculations on it based on what you saw of its traits or, you know, anything interesting that you noticed? So when I grew it, it was very like, it's a word for it. Like, I had a champagne rollo type smell. There's some pissiness, but I never caught the gingerbread end of it. And I think there is some sort of gingerbread end to it that other people smell. It's very hermprone. That's, that's like the first thing you notice when running it very hermprone. It's looser than it looks. Like visually you look at it, you might think it's more dense like cookies, but it's not at all. Is it a Durban poison is probably one of the questions I get the most. I would say there's no way in hell it's a pure Durban poison. It's got a lot of Afghani type traits to it, which Durban poison is a. Well, there's a lot of different things called Durban poison. It's an area in Africa. There's a lot of things that come out of that area. Traditionally, there's the Dutch passion Durban poison that most people think of. There's the NorCal Durban poison, which is ultrapinoline. I believe it was the Mel Frank Durban poison cut that was all anus, you know, like aniseed. So this isn't necessarily that. With Kenny Powers, he said a few times, a few different things. He said that F1 Durb is the Durb crossed to F1. And what is an F1? He said it's like a formula one race car. And that's why we call it that. And then he also later said it is Durban crossed to something crossed to purple pain, which was like a purple from the Bay Area, which is probably like an oracle. But hard to say, hard to say, don't see a lot of oracle in it. So yeah, that's that's probably the most I could say about the traits other than what we talk about later on in its relation to other things. Yeah, super interesting. And obviously people are now starting to grow out some of those crosses. So we might might learn more of it over time. Okay, so we can move on to cherry pie. You want to kick it off, Dan? Yeah, I started seeing it in like 2014, 15, I think the clone was at HPRC in Arcada. And so that's where I picked it up at least. And I grew it a little bit. I kind of wasn't a good grower yet. And so I got like little popcorn buds of just like rock hard. It was like green with marbling like stripes of purple. How hard was it? Rock hard. And it was really nice, man. I remember that a pound of it was like the size of a football. Yeah, it was the smallest pound. I think I've still seen the date. And so it was really killer. I enjoyed it. The smoke was kind of meh. Like it was tasty, but didn't get you that high compared to like the diesel headband, OG that kind of everyone cropped out at that time. It was just another one like that people kept a few plants of and like their outdoor patch just as like variety. But like it wasn't like a bulk produced plant that I don't think I've seen anyone ever bulk produce it. Yeah. So my first experience with the cherry pie was on IC Mag. Lump status had just gotten ahold of the cut and was growing that and some of the other cookie fam cuts. And I remember looking at the cherry pie on there just thinking, this is so gorgeous. And it was a, the forum was all, he was also growing the forum publicly on there and it was very unique looking, but cherry pie really, really like, is it cherry? Is it like a cherry pie? Like that all was very intriguing and looking at it. It was just, it looked like more of what I wanted to grow versus the forum. And I remember reaching out to him. We weren't friends yet. And I reached out to him. I was like, Hey, dude, what do you want for that? Like what do you want to trade for that cut? And we ended up doing some sort of exchange. I might have given him right. Or something like that. Like my mom cut of that. And a mutual friend of ours who I'll shout out Gail from PNC ape radical dude. I mean, back in the day in San Diego, he ran a place called people's nursery care PNC. And he had some of the most legit. He's where I saw strawberry cream originally from that clone. The soul assassin number three and one source from him. LA AFI. Just all kinds of stuff, dude. Like he was so responsible for so much ending up in my hands. So shout out to Gail. Gail is legit. And like, there were so few clones that I ever got. And I was like, I don't know about that one from him. But he was so much before his time doing great provenance of research serious about it. And he had a good business down there. Really good business. And he's still up and running somewhere, I think. I don't know what he's necessarily doing now, but he's still out there kicking it. And he came and brought down cherry pie along with some other stuff. And it was about 2011. And my first time running it. The first thing I noticed was, oh my God, this is gassy. Like there's a lot of gas to cherry pie, not just the sweet end, but there's a gassy end that you could pull out of it. Reminded me a lot of like an OG gassy type when you pull gassy OG out. What else? Beautiful purple colors that you can pull out of it. Structure simp. I'll bring this up right now. There's a structure so reminiscent of the F1 Derb that it's almost hard to ignore that they're absolutely related. I would venture to guess purple GDP type with the F1 Derb makes sense to me. But there is some kind of gassy OG kush to it. And there's some speculation like with me on F1 Derb, maybe having OG crossed to it at some point or inside of it. Yeah, that's I think that's most of the cherry pie tail unless you guys have any questions to add. Yeah, anything else you want to add then? Any other questions? I just remember it had like little like triangle buds. Yeah. Like it was all popcorn. It was very similar to four room in that regard where it was like all small buds that were like very, very dense. And you could tell they like looking at them even as clones when they were growing that they were probably directly related in some way as well before I'm in the cherry pie. I also vaguely remember it growing pretty slow and shitty. I don't know if it was growing slow and shitty at the time because it was so young at that time it hadn't been passed. Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure. I can't remember really. But like when I think about it, I vaguely remember just like kind of a shorter slow growing plant which would kind of lend itself to something like an Urkel or a GDP. Oh, let me add in intersex. Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. And if it is related to the F1 Derb, then that's probably why. That trait seems to be pretty heavy in cookies and cherry pie and a lot of stuff. So yeah, for sure. I kind of want to foreshadow at this point that we're probably not going to get around to constructing any kind of timeline and that this is kind of a that these genetics are like a crazy circle. Don't know, you know, inbred nested ring of whatever. Cannabis human centipede vibe. Yeah. But yeah, we can move on to GDP. GDP. So this is another one that has, I don't even know if I want to go into the history of GDP so much as kind of reference it. I know CSI is like his opinion on GDP has changed a lot on what is GDP, what is Urkel, which I don't even know if he's brought up publicly, but it's interesting. Real interesting. And I'll leave that to him. Maybe when he owes us an episode, not reminded him just this weekend, you owe us an episode, buddy. And he could be a crush. Apparently crushes the giants in the little hill. I'm both going to try and add some pressure as well. I don't know if it'll help or not, but. He knows. He knows what's up. GDP. So there is a wonderful video with Ken Estes talking about the history of GDP. And I remember a long time ago on the forums, I transcribed it so people could actually read what mumblemouth was saying. And essentially he said that he was given the clone by Native American shamans in front of some headlights at a ceremony of sorts. And because he was such a cool white man, they decided to gift him this magical clone that was not only skunk, but like from Vietnam and all this other stuff. And it was the most purple weed he'd ever seen. Yeah, I mean GDP reminds me a lot of an Urkel type. And they seem to be directly related in some way. I don't know if one came before the other. Back in the day, almost everything was called GDP, whether it was Urkel, whether it was grape vape, whether all those names were so interchangeable, it became really hard to tie it down to a specific clone. There was the Ken's GDP referring to Ken Estes that was super purple. And then he made a seed line that he called grand daddy purple, which really screwed everything up. And all of a sudden everybody had the real GDP, Ken's GDP, because he put out the seed line of fence seeds. As far as relation, I don't see much difference between it and Urkel and how it breeds to really say, again, which came first, the chicken or the egg, but they're both so heavily involved in thin mint, in boron, in my opinion, that they could be synonymous and used interchangeably in that way. Grapey, purple, slow growing. Super Afghani outdoors, they have more narrow leaves than they would broadleaf. So some people would confuse it for a sativa outdoors, but I mean, a short squat, short internode spacing. Yeah, super grapey. But in veg, both the GDP and Urkel are some of the absolute skunkiest cuts you can have. When you take cuts of those things, it fills up a room and smells like just straight skunk spray. But when flowering about week six, they go from that skunky smell to sweet grape. And it's a big change up. But yeah, that's what I got. I don't know if you have much experience with it, Dan. No, so I've never actually held like a verified cut of any of the real purples. They were a little bit before my time. Like I remember buying bags of stuff called GDP and there's really good purple weed in it, you know. But one thing that I've always thought was interesting was I saw this peer reviewed paper where they had collected a bunch of clones out of American Gros and done the gene correlations and made a phylogenetic tree. And all of the purples were clustered together. And then all of them were also very much more basal. So like, you have the tree going off of like all the modern cuts and you see like OG and you see C99 and all the shit just on this main branch. And then out of nowhere from way more basal the purple shoot up to the top. And to me that kind of lends itself to the stories. There's a few stories that we've heard on the show of people being given seeds from the 70s. Yeah. And I've heard a few of those stories myself outside the show as well. And I think that's kind of where most of them arrive from is from like Afghanis and like, you know, cuts from the east over there and them getting stored and then popped by people in the 90s. And I think that's where most of these cuts come from. And it actually showed that grape ape was the most basal out of all of them. Does that mean like the parental? Yeah. Like for the upstream, right? When you say basal. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like it would be like grape ape and then like a branch off of that and it would show GDP and a branch off of that and it would show Urkel. And like, I can't remember the placement of each of them in regards to each other, but it also depends on like what the named cut that those people collected were because I've never been able to tell the difference when someone says, oh, this is purple Cush clone. This is a GDP. This is a purple Urkel. Like they all are really, really similar in my opinion. And yeah, I think that they're all probably very closely related if not renames of cuts or bagged seeds of each other. Yeah, the SR 71 purple Cush was a big one. And I had that growing side by side with Urkel back in the day and that was sourced from Blue Sky Cafe or SR 71 which became Blue Sky Cafe later on. And I could never tell the difference between the two. Sometimes we'd say, oh, the SR 71's more hashy or earthy hashy, but like it could have just been different, you know, just small little different. I don't even know, bro. Like they were all so similar. All of them, GDP, they all grew short squat, short internode spacing. I had less trouble with gray paper. I always thought it was kind of prettier and had more narrow type leaves, but I've seen Urkel perform that way too. Yeah, it's, I think you're right too. I think it's just an introduction of old purple Afghanis. Yeah, I don't know. Like it's one of those things where it was so many clones were passed around in the same area of California with these different names. Obviously Urkel didn't pop up as a name until Family Matters was a TV show. But before that it had other names, you know, like just purple, purple bud, purple skunk, you know, things like that were around. GDP was named what it was because it was supposed to be the OG purple, the one that came before all the other ones, the granddaddy of them, you know, but whether that's true or not, or just like someone trying to push a narrative. Like trying to find that original called, it would be damn near impossible to untie that unless you find someone that's had it, good provenance, going back however long. Yeah. I was going to prompt this next one, which is we're going to obviously talk about OG as well. But we've also seen, we've also seen Urkel hybrids of OG, Urkel OG hybrids out there, made by other people like obviously Caleb's got T1000 I can't remember the line that that was from. What do you guys think based on looking at just straight OG Urkel type hybrids and how they might resemble cookies or not? You can get really, really close. You can get damn close to cookies with it. It's not the most common expression, but you can get really damn close without, without the, without the F1 derb essentially, but you've got a little bit different of a structure. You always get a more OG type structure. I do still think that it's part of the reason why I think OG is an F1 derb though, because it's only a little bit of a hint of a difference between an Urkel OG hybrid and what we knew as forum per se, you know? Yeah. The thin mint to me was always more narrow leaf, which I was kind of wondering where that came from as opposed to this Urkel OG hybrid. And it may just be that difference between what's dominating in there and that's the F1 derb. But F1 derb also looks pretty broad leafed in many ways. So I don't really know. Yeah, Caleb did a lot of Urkel and OG hybrids before he made it up to T1000. He had the Savage Urkel, which is SFV Urkel. There was God's gift back in the day, which was GDP OG that was real famous in California. I used that early on. I think I even did some. A lot of people were doing that combination. You know, OG was hype and the purples were hype and that's what people wanted. Like, the Soul Assassin number three looked like an Urkel OG, looked just dead on like an Urkel OG. Didn't have the same knobby structure or bubbly calyxes that the Brax that Cookies has, but the resin production was absolutely insane. There was a lot of gassy skunkiness to it. It was short, low yielding, like popcorn structure. It ticked a lot of the same boxes. Really, really high THC testing, really dull high. Yeah. Deb, any thoughts on that one? Yeah, like I've seen some OG hybrids with different purples and the only thing that makes me go back to Mendo perps is the anise and the licorice terps because those terps are, they're so prevalent when you breed with cookie stuff. And like it's, I think one of the main components that makes that Sherb aroma as it's like referenced, you know? Oh yeah, that's a good point. And I don't really get a lot of, like when I've bred with this stuff, I don't really get skunkier, grapey ever. You know, it's pretty much always like some creamy, licorice type thing with some gas. And that's the only reason I think it in some way, in the most incestuous way possible, leads back to Mendo perp as the donor for the purple. And also, I mean, it's hard to say though, because Mendo perps also its purple traits are true purple, you know, versus the other ones, they're very climate dependent, you know, like the temperature dependent. And so that's like the counter argument is that it's like, oh, well, there's not a lot of true breeding purple in cookies lines either, you know? It's always kind of that gray purple and it comes on late whereas like Mendo perps and some of its hybrids will like purple out in a hot room at week two. And so it goes back and forth. I see data points that point in both directions. You know, and Mendo perps, another thing about that is that it has a lot of magenta in it that's true breeding as well. Like it's hard to shake magenta out of Mendo perps hybrids down the line. And I just never see that in the cookies on its own. But it doesn't mean that you can't directionally breed. You know what I mean? Like it can always be a directional breeding and manage to avoid that magenta trait. It's just, it's like with the other place I see it is in Chitrol and like double purple Doja, stuff like that from the blackberry. And there's always been some kind of theories on whether, you know, blackberry was related to Mendo perps or not. Mendo perps may be one of those old purple Afghanis that was floating around and God knows where it came from. I mean, I don't know if I necessarily believe every story I hear now, but I do think it was a base for a lot of the purples. I do. How it got to be that base, whether it was a sister, whether it was one cut, whether it was bag seeds going around nor cowl. And it wasn't even necessarily the first thing called Mendocino purple. There was other Mendocino purples earlier. Yeah, sure. Yeah. We were going to do an episode on that too, right? Like, we were going to do a purple pink magenta, maybe? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we were, huh? See, I'm all making fun of you. Yeah, we were going to do that instead of this. Yeah, that's right. We were. Yeah, originally. Yeah. But this needed to be done for sure. So we've sort of talked about OG already. Is there anything else to add on the OG side of things? As far as this goes, like with cookies, like a really good example of an OG dominant cookies would have been something like animal cookies to me. It was the more OG end of forum. I mean, they almost, again, they almost looked identical on veg. They almost looked identical on flour, except it had more of an OG kush structure and more of an OG kush scent. And that was probably one of my favorite cuts on all of them because I really liked OG kush. I don't think you get cookies without OG kush. I don't think you get it. I don't think so. If you can get OG kb, OG kush breath looking stuff without OG, but I don't think you can get the gassiness and OG kb and the potency with just herbal or with just like an herbal type. You can get the mutation. You won't necessarily get the gassy and all that stuff. Yeah, I look at it and I see the structure and like the leaf to bud ratio where it's like basically just like two little leaves that are at the base of the bud and then it's all flower above that. Yeah. That is like the modern structure that I see and I think all of that comes from OG from my own breedings with it and it's the number one thing that gets passed even if you missed by a mile on the Terps, you still end up with that structure and that look. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's just a major component of what we're talking about. I just don't think you have it without the OG, essentially. Nice. Well, coming up, we have another cut or at least another name that we've covered quite a bit, the Sherb. I'll let you run with this one, Dan. And I guess it's like, yeah, which Sherb are we talking about? I guess you can go into that, too. I only talk about Sunset when I talk about Sherb because in my opinion, it's the main one that matters. Like the whole green Sherb thing and Skittles and all that is it's fun to talk about. But like Sunset Sherb to me was like the first one that was like a really, really good cash crop plant that came out of all these lines. And you could get great weight, great potency, a variety of aromas from creamy to like pure fuel on the same cut. And I have pictures from some grows that I did of it in, I think, 2017 that are just like whole rooms just filled with donkey dick buds just swaying in the fans. And I love that plant. I wish I still had it. But as far as what it's made of, I don't really believe the story of OG Kush pink panties. I mean, we've seen that picture of pink panties now that we've passed around to each other. And maybe I could see it, but it's so purple. Yeah, I know. It's a turd, bro. It's a cooking turd. It's not, it's airy. Again, herm prone turds, like no resin production. And the whole, this can kind of go into the last one, too. The pink panties, like Boku conversation. It's like, I don't see how you could like cross a Burmese to an OG and have that plant in one hybrid. I just don't think it's possible. Because a Burmese would be like a 20 week flowering, like equatorial Southeast Asian sativa. And so maybe something went around called Burmese at that point and they crossed it to an OG. But I don't, it looks way more like it's some sort of like an F1 Derb derivative to me. There was a Burmese that reefer man passed around that was predominantly like Afghani. Like it obviously was not a, you know, high Burmese land race. Close enough. Yeah, close enough though, right? I could definitely see that being Boku. It was also very hermprone, but there was a line from Vancouver called the black Burmese that was definitely super purple, definitely super hermprone. And using reefer, pretty sure it's reefer man's Burmese. I don't know if he got it from the dude at VISC or they traded it or one came from the other, but I'm betting it's the same one. And God, it was trash. And that's the only thing I could see with pink panties. My biggest problem with it is there's a scent and sherb that goes through every single thing that has sherb in it. I can always smell it. It's a lot of it's pretty smelling, but it's like a peppery note that I don't like. And I don't really hear people mention it, but it's just like a, it's so hard to explain, but it's a note. That's like what the Scotty has. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, but it's so prevalent in everything that sherb has touched. I just, I couldn't, I just never liked it. It was one of those ones I can't like like a RS 11 has it. Like it's a big component RS 11, the, the scent that I'm talking about, but some people love it. You know, it's just one of those personal subjective things. Yeah. It's, um, sunset sherb is also responsible for what I would say is like the majority of like the modern hype cuts at the moment, like jealousy and all that. It's all from like Sherb, the Scotty in crosses of one type or another. And so I think it's by far the best breeding out of all of them. Like if you want pretty consistent plants that throw big buds that are purple, have these modern turf profiles, like it's probably the one you actually want to use. I don't think using the gelato's, I haven't seen it really go anywhere besides making more gelato. Yeah. Same. Whereas like, and same thing with Sherb, but Sherb's just better. And so maybe it's just like that one step removed farther back. That makes it breed slightly better. I don't know. But, um, I have not been a fan of breeding with gelato for really anything. Good segue. Cause we were going to go into that, you know, I don't know if it's fair to call that next generation, but gelato, wedding cake, I don't know. Like you got the text on them a bit better than me. So wedding cake to me is it, you know, like a lot of people lump that in with cookies, but to me it's more of a triangle type of plant. You can find that turf profile that, and to me, I just call cardboard turf profile. Some people think it's like creamy, you know, as a creamy component, but I just think it's garb, garb profile. And, um, you know, everybody was shits on me because I may say all this shit, but like I really don't like it. To me, it's the, the one direction I would not want to take triangle. It's the mid-Z commercial version of triangle to me. And someone locked it in and called it wedding cake. I can't remember the Jase Leasy, something like his name is one of those names. I'm not really so into it. I spent a lot of time trying to like map this stuff with the last job that I had, because like I really wanted to see like what directions you could go down by like mixing and matching some of these cuts. And like the, um, there is like a very big gap between like where everyone went with gelato and the sherbet cuts, um, which I would consider more similar versus like the animal mints hybrids that JBZ made. That's honestly kind of like its own side shoot. And, um, it's just as incestuous. You know what I mean? Like look up like ice cream cake to wedding cake to animal mints. Like it's all the same cut basically just reworked a thousand different ways. But, um, they are separate lines in my opinion. I think that wedding cake and gelato are two different things. I just, yeah. If you were forced to like, oh, sorry, Matt. Good. Good. I was going to ask Dan, like, you know, he mentioned that like he could see these like broad distinctions across these broad groups. Like if you could, if you had to put words to those distinctions, what would they be? Do you think? Um, well, like wedding cake, like Matt was shitting on because like it was a seed line originally that was released. And so there's, I've barely ever come across the same cut of wedding cake twice. You know, same thing with gelato 33, you know, it's just like, I think it was originally a seed line that was released, or like maybe he did like a gelato 33 BX or something like that. And so, um, great, my power is fluttering. Um, and so, uh, it, uh, what am I trying to say? It, uh, there's just so many of them. I've had really nice cuts of wedding cake that I liked that I bread with. And, um, but it's just one of those things that, um, wedding cake is creamy, huge buds, some purple, not always, um, potency is meh. Same thing. They're, they're honestly just like flavors of the same thing or the same family, but that they were taken in separate directions and then ran with, you know what I mean? Like wedding cake doesn't have in those lines. They don't really have a lot of overcross back into gelato until you get to ice cream cake. Cause that's like wedding cake times gelato 33. I'm pretty sure. Um, and actually I loved ice cream cake. I thought it was a good cut. Um, it's a good cash propper or made me some money over a few years. And so, um, it's not something that I miss that I now that I don't have it. I've never smoked it ever. I kind of look at the three main categories as like the Sherb gelatoes, the green Sherb skittles, and then the animal mince wedding cake stuff. Those are like the three main groupings in my mind. That you can actually like map out as separate. For me, like wedding cake. The way I look at wedding cake is the dead end of triangle, whereas gelato would be the dead end of Bercal triangle to me. Like, yeah, like that. Once you hit that point, like you can make a whole bunch more wedding cake type stuff and name it whatever you want. It's always going to be very similar to wedding cake. And I think that's what 99% of the market is either the dead end of gelato. And once you've got to that, it's almost like having a tropinolini haze. Once you get there, you can't really wipe it out that well. You could try, but it's always going to be there. I mean, I was trying to do it with blue bonnet and wedding cake. And it just, to me, it just made like a maya creamy commercial blue bonnet. It was not novel unique. Um, and it, when you start inbreeding, you start back crossing and not knowing what you're doing. It's kind of where you're going to end up in my opinion or, or, or bad seeds of bag seeds of bag seeds of bag seeds in the same direction, like gelato. Yeah. So you're essentially in like a genetic cul-de-sac at that point. Right. Yes. That's the best way to put all this. Like, I always say it's like a, a shit-breeding dead end, but a genetic cul-de-sac is probably a nicer way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah. And so really the question I'm just paraphrasing you is like, why, like, there is no real value to taking those things any further, like within, you know, within those constraints, right? Well, and what you end up saying, what you end up seeing nowadays is that people take things from outside these lines or from like more basal regions. And then they try and reflavor it while keeping the look, the structure, the trim-ability, like all that. And so they're like, well, now we've got cherry gelato. Yeah. Now we've got Z flavored gelato, you know what I mean, with runts kind of thing. And it's all still the same shit, whether you throw a little, you know, like you're saying like a blue bonnet, like, oh yeah, my blueberry gelato now. Yeah. Right. But it's still mid-Z and it still like has all the problems and you can't take it further really because like you start ending up with all these negative traits, like the little aborted seed pods that are in, they're in everywhere in these lines, like you can't get away from them. And so like if you hybridize like a bunch of gelato and skills together, like, or a permanent marker, Skittles, whatever these crosses you want to make together, you end up losing like 50% of it to a lot of these negative traits, even if it's good smoke. It's usually the best cut too, where you're like, oh, it smells good. This has actually got some potency to it and you grind it up and there's like a million little aborted seeds in your, you know, little pile of weed. And so it just depends on if that's like a deal breaker for you, I guess, or not, but it's not something I want to see. I just, I just wish that people would do more novel stuff than like gelato runs. Gelato, oh gee. Gelato, gelato, you know, like, and it, and to me, just the, that's 99% of the market. That's what people have been told that they want is buds that look just like this. And that's what, I mean, to me, that's what compound was. Gelato, gelato, gelato and just ran with it and it's still being run with. It's, I just, it's people, the reason I really, really dislike it just from a breeding perspective is because so much was dropped in place that was novel, unique, old because the market was demanding so much of that crap that like, like I've been talking about a lot of breeders are asking me, hey, do you know where I can get a good OG cut? Because there's no, there's not a lot of OG cuts out there anymore because people wanted gelato and demanded it so much that OG just wasn't in demand, bags wouldn't sell of OG. And realistically, it costs money to keep moms of something that you cannot make money with. So it's either done out of like a sense of duty, a love for collecting or monetary. And if you don't have all three in some cases, it's just not going to fly. And it seems like that's what's going on. And it's, it's hype at its finest marketing and its finest and easiest and sheepish to me. And people are getting so mad that I say that, but it's all I see with it. Another phrase comes to mind to me, which is that these, again paraphrasing both of you, like these names are just like all like false alternative alternatives. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. It's the illusion that you're, you're choosing between varying things, but actually you're not really choosing at all. And I mean, realistically, with all the cookie stuff, like from day one, like none of this, Girl Scout cookies doesn't smell like thin mint cookies and tastes like thin mint cookies, chocolate, you know, like Andy's mints, what the, and it just carried on whether you're talking about sherbet tasting like, like orange sherbet. No, it doesn't. Like a wedding cake to me, creamy. Yeah. Is it sweet, creamy battery? No, like. It's marketing. It's marketing. And it's just so dishonest. And I don't know why, like specifically, I remember when animal cookies came out. And before I had it, there were a couple of gentlemen, I don't remember who they were talking about it and reviewing the bud. And they're sitting to smell like, oh my God, this smells so much like animal crackers. Oh my God. I was like, God damn, that would be fucking awesome. Animal cracker bud. Like that would be the shit. I like the smell of animal crackers. And so it got really built up until I grabbed it and I was like, this is not an animal cracker. This is OG. Like, you know, like a lot of false promises get sold. But at some point that expectation was just wiped and people didn't have the expectation for a name to have anything to do with the scent, taste, or there's something psychosomatic going on where they're convincing themselves that, yeah, it's totally animal crackers. Either way, it's hard. You can influence people's perception of aromas by the marketing of its naming and all that. If you say like, hey, this smells like cookies, people smell it and maybe they get some of that battery and they're like, oh yeah, it kind of does smell like cookies. And I'm like, what fucking cookie is that? You know what I mean? That's not chocolate shit, man. That's not peanut butter cookies. Yeah, that was my mind, bro. Yeah, but it's like you really, you can influence people's perception of aroma very easily. And so like when I want people's opinions on like what something smells like in a jar, I don't tell them anything. Because if I say like, do you smell the lime? They'll be like, yeah, actually I do. You know what I mean? Because your brain is filling it in. Yeah, I think when you experience a field of complexity or noise, it's very easy to project things onto it. Kind of like looking at clouds, right? Daydreaming, looking at clouds and stuff. And your brain goes, oh, do you see the like battleship? And you're like, yeah, I can see that. And it's like, yeah, sure. Yeah, the human mind is very malleable in our like perception of reality. Yeah, unfortunately. Some people have it worse than others, I guess. I don't know. You have to have a certain sense of skepticism to get past that, I think. Like just be an inherently skeptical person to not have your mind made up before you sniff something. Yeah, I mean, I'm the same as Dan. Like, yeah, if my if my partners bought us some new coffee, I don't want to read the bag because it's going to say that it's apricot, strawberry, you know, whatever. I want to try for myself and then see what they said about it afterwards just so I can compare, you know, it's like, yeah, otherwise it is too easy. I can't imagine those things too easily. Either you're the kid that sniffs your friend's finger when he says smell my finger or you're not. That's what it comes down to. Well, I'm like most of the time without any information, like that's why I love showing my wife weed because like, she's just like, yeah, it smells good. And that's like how I am with most things. If it's like, if I'm smelling a bag of coffee, I'm not thinking about like all the other things that could possibly smell like or taste like. I'm like, oh yeah, it smells good and you make a cup and you're like, yeah, it tastes pretty fucking good. Yeah, then you, you read the bag and you fill in like, oh yeah, notes of caramom, you know, like all the things and like suddenly your brain's like, oh yeah, yeah, for sure. I tasted that. The Starbucks graham cracker coffee really does taste like graham crackers though. Oh yeah, because they probably pureed some fucking graham crackers in there. So good, bro. So good. I'm glad to be able to drink coffee again. That was a long time I couldn't drink coffee without puking. Yeah, dude, I'm there with you. I have more than one cup. I'm like, blah. Yeah, look at that for a while. So was it worth us talk? I mean, you guys already, you know, referenced Permanent Marker and Aristotle and jealousy. Is it, is it worth talking about those at all? Yeah. Go ahead, Dan. Yeah, I've bred with them in the past year, like pretty extensively with the last place I was working with and Permanent Marker, I think is actually some pretty good smoke. It's not something I would take to a desert island with me, but it's like good variety because it takes that like Sherb Annis profile and it's just like cranked up, you know, and it's not that potent, but it's just, it's really, really amazing flavor. Like I think I sent, I sent someone on the server a couple bags of like, I think it was a Skittles S1 Permanent Marker and a few other things I can't remember at the top of my head. And even he agreed, he was just like the Permanent Marker is like, even compared to the Skittles, it's like a very similar profile. It like has elements of the same thing. It's just like turned up to 11. And so I thought it was really nice. It was the first like cookie's directional thing that I had smoked a long time. I was like, oh, I kind of actually fucking like this. It lasted a day, the tolerance part, you know what I mean? Like that quick cookies buildup of a tolerance to where it just, you know, you see it in the lab analysis too. It's like not a very diverse sample as far as like any accessory cannabinoids or like small amounts of different terpenes that you look at. It's kind of just like, cool. And it breeds, they all breed very dominantly because they've been so like inadvertently line bred by multiple different people over the last, you know, 15 years. And so Permanent Marker is very much like RS 11 and that like, not that they breed the same but that they're very consistent in their structures that they pass. You'll see like when I crossed Permanent Marker, everything looked like Permanent Marker and it just depended on whether the other plant had like a more dominant aroma profile or something. So like I was crossing it to some fruit punch type stuff and the fruit punch just always came through and it looked exactly like Permanent Marker and I was like, this is fucking boring. Same thing with RS 11. RS 11 does like a nice gelato structure and then these like thin little finger buds that are just like, you know, a small collection of calyx is just like stacked on each other and it was all garbage in my opinion. I looked at it and I was just like, oh, let me take notes on another fucking plant that's exactly like the last one. And they're very predictable and that's what I don't think people get is that these things may be massive polyhybrids but they've polyhybrids with the same base components and so things actually do get fairly fixed over time and it's usually the bad stuff and pretty looks, you know, low potency, pretty looks, a lot of cardboard turps but they're very consistent in what they do. Like RS 11, like unless you cross it to something like a bully like a train wreck or a blue dream or something like that like I can tell you exactly the breakdown of like the types of expressions you're likely to see because it is so consistent but it's consistently bad. Like the really nice clones that get pulled out of these hybrids are the exception to the rule. So when you buy these seeds and you're like, oh, it's, you know, soap times this or that, like you're going to find mostly trash and like you may be the one that gets lucky that finds like a really nice tasting one or one that has some unusual potency for the line but they rarely all line up in one, you know, like I'll run 50 to 100 seeds of some of that stuff and just be like, oh my God, why can't I find one that has the looks, the potency and the aroma? They're all segregated in different combinations and I cannot find them together and it's really frustrating work to do. What if it's low population breeding? What? Other than just in breeding, I wonder if it's just low population pops, bags, low population pops. Yeah, for sure. Like things can get fixed in inadvertently and be kind of like bread, quote unquote, completely unintentionally and you can have traits that get fixed, you know, and some of them can be good and some of them are bad. I just like the reason it made me think of that was like DJ's blueberry. Like I always go back to that almost all of my thoughts on stuff like that are what I've seen in blueberry from a low population playing around type situation where, you know, it was three plants in a room, one herms on the other or one pollinates two other ones. You mix up the seeds and then for the next four years, you cross the sativa type to the indica type. So you're in breeding small population. Even though it just, and it turns into variant but inbred low floor, you know. Yeah. And you can fix it. It's very easy to fix throughout, crossing to the right thing, but not everybody does that. Yeah. No. And like at this point, I really like, like for like the future of this kind of stuff, like I don't really think there is one. It's like what hasn't been crossed to one of these cookies things. Like what are we really going to find? Like I've done it where I like take a nice cut of blue dream and work it into some of these lines. And like, you know what, it's all trash. The best ones are always like, oh yeah, it's like basically blue dream. Yeah. The best ones. Yeah. I don't think that there's anything you can like cross to this stuff to really make it new and exciting for me at least. Like I've just seen a lot of it. The farther back you go, the better it is, not forward at all. And so. Yeah. I had a question originally that was like, oh, how do you, you know, quote unquote fix or counterpoint it, but I think you saw a good example of them trying to do this using Bodhi's Congolese cashmere, like that's more like unique and wild than the Congo cash. I got to run it, you know, so I got to see what it was like. Even in doing that, I've not heard of anything like insanely amazing coming from it. And that's not just shit on Bodhi because he's a fucking amazing guy doing cool shit. It's just, that's where cookies was at, I think. Yeah. And like what they end up wanting is cause like I've been in these rooms on these breeding panels where like you do the work and then someone else gets to pick through it and shit and like. Yeah. Yeah. And like you do the work, you try and make something new and unusual. And you know what they do? They pick the one that's most like the modern parent. Yeah. And it'll be the worst cut out of all of it. You're just like, that's trash. I didn't even want to show you that jar, but I had to because of the way this works. And like, like why did you pick that? And then they want to breed with it afterwards. And they're like, look at this new thing we made. And it's just not true. It's all trash, most of it at least. And like maybe you can find something that has like a novel aroma, but most of the time it's just like a jacked aroma for one of the parents. And then you added it to this structure and this like thing that people like, but I think people need to get away from that. It's like the structure of the weed, like doesn't matter at all. Yeah. Just because like if I need a seven gram jar to put an eighth in it because it's larvae, but it's really good, really nuanced, tasty weed, like why does weed have to be rock, little, little rocks, little pebbles and dense. And like, why does it have to be purple? And like, why does it have to have this dessert name attached to it? And I think that people just don't even, especially the younger people I talked to, like they don't even really know about like real diversity in weed. They think that they're looking at all these names, permanent marker, Sherb, jealousy. And they think that they're all these distinct things from each other. And they're just not at all. It's all marketing. And so like the way forward is to just like ask for new things, like actually new things. Maybe don't buy your weed from a dispensary if you have the option, you know what I mean? Because like there's a lot of people that still grow in their homes and in their backyards that don't give a shit about what's popular and what sells because it's just for them and their family and their friends. And that's the like move that I'm trying to do is just like, I'm going to grow things that I like, make things that I like, and then I'm going to find the people that jive with that. You know, I don't care about making sales and like growing something that's guaranteed to make me sales because at the end of the day, I'm not a one trick pony. I don't like need to make money off of weed. It's just nice to like do the work and feel rewarded at the same time or like have it not just like cost you money for having this like very life consuming hobby. Yeah. But yeah, we need to get away from this like fixation on color and density. And I think that would solve most of the problems, you know, you can still cross GDP and the other weird stuff. And like some of these more basal components and fight get really interesting weed. Yeah, this is more or less where I wanted to where I wanted us to conclude, which is maybe just for fun speculating or reflecting on what those possibilities are, even like, for example, whether it's we talked about different oracle orgy hybrids earlier on. But even like thinking, okay, in an alternate in an alternate like timeline where instead of oracle, there was blue bonnet. Like what would that what would have happened, you know? Yeah. Any other thing that's like equally distinctive to trolley to trolley. Double purple dojo was a big one during like the late 2000s double purple dojo based on blackberry or blackberry whatever they were really using. A lot of that stuff is so different far removed from what oracle types are. There could have been a lot of novel cool shit done with that, like even sub cool as much as much as people know my contentious relationship with the human being was when he was around. Double purple dojo was insane. Like it was a basically a purple like a blackberry version of Apollo 13. And we don't really see a lot of Apollo 13 types anymore, especially now that the TGA is temporarily gone, but we're going to see a resurgence soon. But like that was cool. That was way different than than any of the cookie stuff. And you still got like the novel purple, maybe not as much leaf resin. Maybe it wasn't geared as much to bubble hash. And that's another part of it is like people just see resin and they think, oh hash bro, you know, yank it. But you got the colors. You got unique Terps. You got really potent highs. In many cases. Chitrally has very similar beautiful magenta colors. And it's just so far out of the realm of what people are using today. A base Pakistani, which is essentially, you know, very similar to an Afghani. Slightly different elevations. That could take things in so many different directions. Just randomly as well. Like even if you kept Urkel, like what it would be like to not use or G, right? Like we've seen we've seen Urkel before. No, I mean loosely trace dog. Sorry. And I said not exactly, but you know, like that, that even that's quite different and quite interesting. Yeah. Yeah, dude. That's a lot of people's favorite cut. It's a cool, it's a cool cut. Urkel, what I did like a GDP bubble berry. It was really unique back in the day. It was one of my very first crosses. There's a lot of different things you could do a GP and Urkel. Even like an Urkel tie. Like the like banana tie or the juicy fruit tie that was in banana tie crossed Urkel. It would be insane. It would be really, really neat. Two totally different types. It's not, I just, it's like to me Urkel wasn't the problem. It was really not not unique thinkers. Everybody trying to do the same thing and capitalize on the same thing really easily. Like for me cookies was very easy to grow. It was the best one. It was the best one. It could grow really well because it grew itself, you know. And that made everybody start growing it too. I look like a rock star. I'm a dank grower. I can feed this nitrogen all the time. It still blows up. Frosty. Yeah. There's so many different directions and people are so sheepish. I hate it. ie like the rest of breeding. Yeah, I mean, it's not asking anything. Yeah, just a small niche. Even outside of cookies, though, if you really think about it, it's like, people think that nowadays people would think breeding with OG is probably original. And I'm like, once again, like, what hasn't been crossed? Yeah, I can't think of a single thing. You know, and so like, if you look back, we're actually still just using the pieces from previous Hyperus, where it's like the purple cuts and the OGs and then now all the modern stuff. And so like, that's the only thing I really care about nowadays is stuff that predates almost all of it. Yeah, because the rest of it's already been done. And it was done well a lot of the times too. And like, you're probably not going to have the same access to the versions of the cuts of the people that did it really well when it was around did. And so I just look for 90s weed now. You know, I want to super skunk everything. Like, yeah, right. That's the next thing. Yeah. Yeah. Also, like, but that's almost like, a little bit like souring and everything up or like cheming everything up or oging everything up. I think there's it's the same component and all those three, they give it like soapiness sometimes when you explore the S ones in different directions. So it's really not that novel or unique, but it's taking a step back to where you can see all the other components that are in those things and then stuff that you've never seen. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see where everyone goes because it's like, it's so standardized now, you know, like things only get selected when they grow a certain way and they flower in a certain time frame and they respond to nutrients that everyone uses the same now. And so like, like what we've seen now is and I think it's already there is like, like we're all drinking Budweiser. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't matter where you buy it from. And like it can have all kinds of different names, but it's really the distinction between like Bud, MGD, Miller, you know what I mean? Like it's like all the same cheap shitty beer. It's all the same cheap shitty weed and it's grown with no love. And like a lot of times because of the way testing standards work, you would be appalled to look in the rooms that these big companies with good reputations have. And so need a hold on that, bro. Yeah, there's just like it's it's terrifying. Like people that actually love this and actually care about what they consume and what they give to other people. Like you would all hate to see where it's gone. And they can spin it whatever the way they want with their marketing. But there's a lot of really horrendous things that you'll see in a modern grow nowadays. And the absolute lack of caring. The only thing that matters is the schedule. Yep. It doesn't matter what the plant wants, what would make it excel, what would make it a better product, it doesn't matter. There's a schedule to meet. There's pounds that need to be like shipped out on this day to these people. And it's the beaster era all over again, just with fancy new packaging. Yeah, a lot more money involved, a lot more corporate money involved, a lot more chads. And that's the only difference. Yeah. Yeah, it's a sad time for commercial weed. But once again, just don't buy like if you have the opportunity, like don't buy weed from a shop. Like if you have the opportunity with your backyard or your garage or whatever, like grow some plants for yourself, like even on your first go with some some plants or some seeds that you can buy commercially, or as a as a home grower, like you're probably gonna like that weed so much more than what you're paying 40 to $60 an eighth at a store for. Most people would be surprised with what they can do. For sure. Yeah. It's made to look very inaccessible. You know, like seeing all these like 90 lighters 200 lighters, it looks really inaccessible, it looks really expensive. But it's not there's there's better, there's there's ways to do it small and efficient and better. Yeah, controls. Yeah. No, just a little have enough space. You need to see migra. Yeah, exactly, man. Like, or if you like live in an illegal state still or an illegal portion of the world, like, people do it, man. You're even more lucky. Like, we're lucky, because then you can get some some some money for your shit, make it worth it. You know, it's also like, yeah. I mean, I'm not, you know, you guys know, I'm not in that I'm not advocating doing a little stuff, by the way. Oh, never. I know. But even just being so remote, like we don't really expose it even like those market pressures or those weird demands. Like, yeah. No, for sure. And those are the those are where the pockets of diversity usually thrive is where there isn't the substantial market pressure. And like, and what the last frontier in America is that the home grower, you know, and so like, we all need to keep keep going with this. And so I don't know, maybe there's some opportunity to like form just like weed appreciation groups in your community kind of thing, where it's just like, hey, like, it doesn't cost you anything to be a part of it. Or it's a very small fee, like on a, a Patreon thing, or a discord thing, and just like, hey, we all meet up in person. We share jars, we talk about weed, we all love it, maybe a little clone swap here and there. But like, we need to get back to more grassroots methods like that and just like community based stuff. Because if we just give it away to the corporations, they're going to make you pay more than full price. Like I don't remember paying $60 for an eighth at a shop during the 215 era, like they were there, you know, I mean, there was a few, but it's like by the end of the 215 era, you could get fucking $35 eighths of top shelf anywhere in California. And it was absolutely killer diversity, just anything you could want, you could go into a shop and pick from 100 jars. And how did we got from there in a short number of years to basically all the same weed with different marketing packaging, you know, and it's all full price, more so than when it was illegal, even though it's more overproduced than ever, like, it just doesn't add up to me. I call bullshit, like artificial scarcity. I mean, but like this is what I keep trying to drive home in all these episodes, like you vote with your dollars, you literally vote with your dollars. There is and trying to explain to people that there's maybe like seven or eight people on earth, with these big collections with good provenance on these clones, that's shrinking so fast. They're having to make hard fucking choices. And if you keep, if you if you're ever interested in smoking something that's not cookies or gelato, if you're, if you're, you know, one of those people who doesn't just follow the straight line, like, vote with your dollars, that's it. It's all left. And if you don't, it'll be gone. That's Yeah. And what sucks is that like the kind of connoisseur portion of the American weed market is heady bros who buy expensive fucking dab torches and puff coze and shit. And like, they love the newest greatest drop from fucking compound and fucking whoever else, like, whoever the big name of the day is, you know, their own, like, I don't understand how the connoisseur portion of the market is run by people who love the most midsy shit possible. Even if it's grown well, it's just like, well, dude, that's not that great a weed. Like, yeah, it was tasty. But like, like, I want to get fucked up. Like, I think people forgot that the point of this is to not smoke weed all day and not get high. It's like, no, I want to take one bong rip and like sit down for four hours and like, forget about like the hard shit in my life. And you know what I mean? Like, that's like what I go for at least with weed, I don't want to have to get up five times during a movie to go re up again, just to be high and like suspend disbelief and enjoy the show. You know, and so remember when exotics meant something from like another country that you couldn't get ahold of that was wild types. Yeah. Now it's like, yeah, defines cookies crap like the opposite. It's almost the opposite. Yeah, for sure. Smoking mirrors right in your face. Boom. Yeah. And so like, I don't know. Yeah, I hope people see through these games that people are playing to take your dollar out of your pocket and give you the dumpiest version of something possible for and then ask them to say thank you, you know, like, it's just like, yeah, I did want to prompt you both. So yeah, I think, you know, good nice reflection on the state of the market at the end there. But I think we're also coming to an end. We got cookies. Was there anything else that either of you want to say about cookies, parting thoughts, parting shots? I mean, for me, it's just like, it's not, it's not what the last episode said it was. And we were really doing a good job of laying out, like what it is and what it isn't. And it kind of got crushed. So that's why we had to redo this. So I think you just a really great job, by the way. I think I think what we got this episode is, yeah, more or less what I wanted last time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, was the direction it was going. So hopefully this will be a good marker for it for people to return to. Another thing is like, I've read the comments every time we do a cookies episode, there's cookie bros coming in calling me a fucking hater and all that shit. I was one of the first people using it and breeding with it. So like, while I don't enjoy it and love it, I have contributed to the problem. And I'm very transparent about that. And I didn't realize I was doing it at the time it took a while. But I get it, like I get why some people like it because it's novel and new to them. But from a breeding person, I'm speaking about everything from a breeding perspective. And a lot of people don't understand that because they don't breed, they don't make seeds, they don't explore different lines. From a breeding perspective, it is a dead ass in. And that's all there is to it. And whether they like it or not, I'm still gonna say it. Yeah, that's all I have to say to is that it's like, we've got a mean, pretty but shitty girlfriend. And it's time to dump her. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, so let's move on collectively as a market and, you know, try and find some cool new shit because it's out there. Yeah, very nice. Okay. Dan, you got anything you want to plug it all? Not really. I've got some things in the work that I have planned out. I'm still stuck in this remodel behind me. Once I get out of here, and the next couple weeks and get done and moved into this place, then I can actually start working again and doing cool shit that isn't permanent marker hybrids. So I mean, do you even talked about it on the show that you're just doing your own thing now? No, I haven't. Yeah, no, I got a lot of land. Yeah, I got dumped by the corporate bros. Well, I was too real, apparently. You're still too nice to like, really pull weight on him. I still think we should flex on him. But you know, that's a no ways. At the end of the day, man, like they've tarnished their own reputation. It's just gonna be fun watching them release stuff that I made for probably the next two plus years, you know, and so I've already heard a few murmurs from people that I know that still work there. And they're like, Oh, did you make this? This was fucking amazing. And I'm like, Yeah, it's not like, interesting to me, though, none of the work that I did there was interesting to me at all. And so I'm more stoked on the stuff that I have going now and some of the projects that I have planned for the near future. And so yeah, maybe maybe a seed line drop, which I haven't done in years. And I don't know, we're still fiddling around with the reversal sprays and stuff. So we got to get back on track now that I've lost my work space, but I have already built my new one. So it's just more time allocation things. So I'm proud of how you handled it. I, you know, like I've lost jobs where it's your livelihood, whether you loved it or not, it's your livelihood, and you have to make big changes. You handled it like a fucking man. So yeah, man, thank you. No, I mean, I bought a house a month before I got fired. So yeah, and I got to keep spending money to like make it nice. You know, so it's like one of those things where it's just like, yep, but luckily I've already got new work and out of the weed industry. And so it's much more rewarding. And I'm already happier. So Oh, it matters, bro. Yeah. Right. You've got but couldn't have done it. I've gotten a lot of support from the Yeah, you love you. I don't think I have too much to add. Yeah. I am. By this point, Matt would have had an out. Well, Matt would have mentioned the 10k subscribers thing. So just like, but in reality, when we're recording this, this has just happened. So a bit of, you know, timey, whimy stuff. Yeah. So still thinking about that. Still stoked about that. Very satisfying. I knew we would get there, of course. It was just a matter of when. But yeah, I'm stoked about that. I wrote this really long, nice thing on Instagram. By the way, follow us at, I think it's, what is it, the dot breeders dot syndicate. I believe that's the one that I have now. Or I'm sorry, breeders dot syndicate dot podcast. God damn it. Yeah, we'll put it in the description. IG sniped our page because people obviously report us because what I say conflicts with their money making. That's how it goes. You know, we lost everything that had to do with the podcast on there, but we do have the new one up. And I wrote about doing like a nice, you know, a cool contest giveaway with everybody who's following on Instagram. Do something cool to, you know, for the 10 K subscribers on YouTube to do a contest there and then one for the Patreon as well. Something really cool for all our Patreon discord people just to celebrate like hitting 10 K. That was a big, big milestone. And yeah, I mean, 1000 was the driving part behind that. Like I just seemed so unrealistic when he first came in to like 10th out. Okay, bro, that'll be like nine years, whatever. Kick around shit till then, you know, but so thank you for that. I just I did want to say, I think just quickly in the response to that, like, I think when I started helping out, I just knew that all it had to do was keep going for a bit longer and it would work. I just kind of was fully confident that if we could still have some of our good people around us and still make the show, it makes us more sustainable that we would just get there. And I think we actually doubled the subs in six months. I think when I first started helping, we were at like four or five K. And so yeah, I'm still pretty amazed that we got there in half a year. But I was also hoping that that's how long it would take. So yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, like a lot of people don't know, but I was ready to clock out like the whole show is done. I was like, I'm not happy with the direction. I'm not happy with what's being said. I'm not saying anything. And it wasn't just about me. It was just a lot of misinformation and I couldn't stop some of it. And I was done. I was really done. And without 1000, the show wouldn't exist right now. I could say that confidently. Super confident. I wouldn't have kept doing it. It would not be consistent. I was done. So that's why we're here. So yeah, and I will say as well, like, I'm also just a proxy for people like Dan, local earn, Little Hill, Kush of the Giants, peaches, you know, probably many other people I've forgotten to mention, but you know, everyone, everyone helped me to, you know, so and helped us. And so being able to get our friends on and help them support us was just huge as well. And I think once we made it more of a group effort, it just changed the vibe as well. Yeah, in a nice way, I think it made it easier for me to and it gave me a lot more hope for the future generations. Like, I was jaded as hell. Like it's really easy to get very jaded and stuck in your ways and like just being like, I don't want to talk about new stuff. I don't want to meet new people. I don't trust anyone. Like it's all gone bad every time and every time anything's grown, it went bad. So it's, it's, it's a nice surprise. It's been really awesome and a great experience. Yeah, with that, we have the Sub Rob drop on Riot Seeds. For those of you don't know, Sub Rob is like one of the most legit dudes I know from IC bag back in the days. Sandy of the finest, him Grayskull is crew. You know, sour dump went through there. Gg4 went through there. All the earliest shit. He did a release of Super Silver Haze 98 cut crossed to sour dub and then a skunk dog S one crossed to sour dub. We're calling the SSH, SSH, Super Silver Haze crossed to sour dub. We're calling it SSSDH. Why? Because we can. Snitch named it the other one. And what else do we got? We got Pac doing a new Blue Dream drop soon and he's done it on his own page. So give him support, direct support. He's got him out right now. Go check him out. What else is there? By that time, we should be having the blueberry IX coming out fairly shortly after this episode airs. That's my proudest blueberry work was the blueberry IX stuff across. We took it another generation and I'm super stoked on it. I'm super stoked and I got to stoke someone else out who was a super blueberry head from Oregon and he didn't believe in any of that like it was really possible that this blueberry existed. He's like, dude, I doubted you and I am mind blown so that that's the kind of shit that stokes me out. Like, you know, you can bring something back to someone like that and have it be true breeding in a line where you can pop, you know, seven seeds and they're all like that, you know. So that'll be out. I know there's more. I don't know. There's more to come there, isn't there? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, there's a lot more to come. The resurgence of TGA, the space, space dude crosses coming out probably around that time too that this airs or shortly thereafter. Go check out Gurt by Seeds. He's our homie out in Australia. We have lifted seeds. California takes credit card. We have right Seaco Europe, a very, very trusted good friend out in Europe for the people who are having trouble getting seeds into Europe. What else do we got? We got my spray. Dan's got a spray soon that we're gonna be marketing somehow some way. What else do we got? I think that's mostly it. I don't know. Oh, go join our discord, the Patreon discord is where we all hang out. We shoot the shit. We watch fights together. We do all kinds of stuff. It's it's pretty awesome. It's a great community. I've met some of some of the best friends that we have now there just by people coming in and hanging out and it's a safe space. And if people are assholes, we kick them out because that's how it rolls. You know, even if they threaten to kill me. Yeah, there is that. And with that, you guys, anything else or is that it? No, that's it. All right. Thanks everyone. Thanks everyone. Lots of love. You want to sit at the table with the syndicate? Check out our Patreon and our link tree or description below. Our merch site is officially live. We have all sorts of shirts, hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast. And most importantly, the quality is top notch. I've been saving old designs for years for this purpose. So please check it out syndicate here.com. We also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily. It's an amazing community of learning away from IG and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge. We hope you join our union of breeders and growers. Come check it out.