 Thank you for joining us today for the advancing a sustainable recovery through private markets discussion. I'm Sarah Williamson, the CEO of FCLT Global. And FCLT's global mission is to focus capital on the long term to support a long term sustainable and prosperous economy. We're a nonprofit organizations whose members are leading companies and investors worldwide that develops actual research and tools to drive value creation for savers and communities. Today we're talking about how to advance a sustainable recovery and particularly through the private markets and what role the private markets can play in this effort. So we know that private markets are an important source of capital that can drive a sustainable economic recovery. The private market has grown at a faster pace than the public markets in the past decade and is on track to continue that growth. With its growing capital base, employment footprint and broad influence, the private market also represents a significant opportunity to make gains on our sustainability agenda. Private investors have meaningful ownership positions with a great ability to set the agenda at their portfolio companies and then much greater than public companies do, public company investors do. Investments in illiquid private market space provide private markets investors with the ability to take a long term orientation. So as the global economy recovers from the COVID-19 crisis, the private market is well placed to play a significant role in allocating capital, driving company behavior and pushing for a net zero transition. So to talk about this challenge, let me welcome the panelists that we have with us today. First is John Graham, President and Chief Executive Officer of CPP Investments. Q Song Li, Chief Executive Officer of the Carlisle Group. Josh Lerner, the Jacob H. Schiff Professor of Investment Banking at the Harvard Business School. And Stephanie von Friedenberg, Senior Vice President at the IFC. So thank you all for joining today. So before we get into the discussion, let me remind you all that this discussion is on the record and will be made available online after the session. All right, so let's jump in with this then. John, let me start with you. Private markets, as we said, are slated to continue to grow over the next several years and continue to play a role in driving forward in sustainable economic recovery. So how are you thinking about sustainability in the private markets versus the public markets? Thank you, sir. And thank you for the invitation to participate in the panel and talk about the private markets and the role of private markets in sustainability. I think certainly at CPP investments, we do believe that some of the most compelling and some of the most interesting investment opportunities over the next decade are really going to be investing in companies that innovate and transition in the world's path to net zero. And this is a complex problem. It's going to require a very complex solution. And regardless of whether that is public markets or private markets. The capital and the way we think about it is the capital in the space. It's going to need to be patient capital. It's going to need to be long term capital. And it's going to need to be partnership driven capital, because these are not solutions that we can put in place overnight. And there may be some perception and maybe some perception I've heard it anecdotally that the private markets may be a little bit behind the public markets in integrating ESG into the investment decisions. And I think the one thing that I would challenge on that is the in the private markets, obviously the one thing we don't have is liquidity. And you can't divest, you can't just sell. And in the private markets, not only get the opportunity but you have to roll up your sleeves and actually engage. And in the private markets, the governance structure overlay in the private markets, the ability to have board representation, the ability to influence strategy, the ability to influence the sea level executives. And it provides a greater opportunity for influence, greater opportunity for influence at times in the in the private markets, and to support the companies the companies that we invest in the companies that other people on the panel invest in and support them from a defensive perspective as they look at their existing operations, think about how to improve their existing operations, decarbonize their existing operations, and also from an offensive perspective to think about how to find new opportunities and to continue to grow these businesses. And Sarah, you talked about the scale in the in the private markets and the scale we have today. Think about the investment opportunity and think about the transition. You know, we've gone through a digital transformation over the past few years where you have a lot of asset like businesses that have transitioned. Now we're going through a transition of a lot of physical assets, and these physical assets will require trillions of dollars to decarbonize. And so we again I'll come back to this at the beginning we look at the private markets as an area where we're going to see some very compelling investment opportunities and very compelling investment opportunities as the world decarbonized. That makes a lot of sense and you talked about partnership capital and that that term of partnership capital so Stephanie maybe I could ask you what what's the role of government and public partnerships is is that is that a similar idea that that partnership capital can can play to ensure that the private markets continue to grow as well as ensure that there's capital that is needed for the sustainability agenda and tell us a little bit about how that works particularly with the emerging in the emerging markets. First thanks for the opportunity to be on on the panel good conversation and you know sustainability is at the heart of what I have seen has done since it was founded 65 years ago. And when I look at the world, we can't no one can do it alone, you know, even pre COVID there was limited fiscal space. So to come out of the crisis green resilient and inclusive we need to bring the private sector along with us and I think the MDVs are really really well suited to do that. We actually follow in the World Bank Group something that we call the cascade which is really to say, okay, there are projects that can be funded completely by the private sector let the private sector do them. The private sector can't do it alone let an IFC balance sheet which is largely driven by private investment step in. If that doesn't work he's a public private partnership, and in the worst case, go to public money when it's necessary. But when I look at it, you know, the situation in emerging markets today I think there are really four things that we need to focus on to jumpstart the economy. Coming out of the 2008 2009 crisis it took us about four years to get investment in emerging markets back to where it was. When I look at the magnitude of the COVID crisis, it's going to take us 10 if we can't jumpstart. The first thing we need public partnerships around policy and regulation we need to incent private sector led growth, and that private sector led growth needs to be sustainable. Second, we need projects to invest in what I see is in the private markets in particular a competition and a race to the bottom over a handful of projects where there aren't enough for all of us to be investing in so we need to take philanthropic money. We need to take foundation money I noticed today that the Gates catalyst fund got some foundation money from Larry Fink really interesting idea how we partner that together, begin to build the pipelines of sustainable projects. Then you do need blended finance and capital to de-risk so you need first loss and some of these other things especially in the poorest countries where the risk reward trade off isn't always apparent to many of the investors as they move forward. And then finally, we need to create platforms that we can bring institutional investors on. We know that asset allocators have different criteria for investing in private markets and they really are looking for rated investments or pools of equivalent rated investments. So our MCP platform and other ideas like that, that would give them access again to a pipeline of projects which would give them a pool of triple beer better assets is the next thing that we need that thinking about. So it seems like you think that the bottleneck if you will is the one of the biggest one is is the supply of high quality projects in in the right places. Yeah, no it's very interesting. Well Q turning to you, you lead one of the largest private equity firms in the world with investments in many, many portfolio companies. How do you think that the private market ownership structure that we've talked about a little bit already has helped your companies through major disruptions like COVID and how it can help be positioned for a sustainable future to capitalize on some of the things that that Stephanie's mentioned for example. Sure. And Sarah, thanks for thanks for having me on such an important topic. Look, the private markets I think are really well suited for these types of issues were very long term oriented. We have access to a lot of capital. We have the expertise. But really we also have the governance model, which is we have real influence or real control with our companies. And when you put all of that together, it is a very, it positions the private markets very well to deal with these types of issues which by definition are going to take a long time. And then I would say the final thing I would throw in there is the mindset. The mindset of the private markets and most private organizations is to want to go create opportunity and find opportunities and look for ways to adapt evolve and to push forward. And you're seeing this in technologies, you're seeing this in healthcare, but there's no reason why you're not seeing this in climate and sustainability efforts as well. And so I do think the markets are the private markets are very well positioned. And I would know, and John mentioned this, there's this energy transition going on, but I don't think folks have really focused on the word transition as much as trying to get to a net zero target. This is going to take a long time. And you just have to read the newspapers about what's happening in energy prices and how it's affecting the consumer in Europe and Germany, etc. And winter hasn't even shown up yet. And this is going to take a long time and folks are talking about divesting. When really, I think we should be talking about investing. We need to invest in companies and new technologies to enable alternative forms of energy to really take hold and the whole ecosystem around that but but really just as importantly. We actually have to invest into the traditional and carbon based companies because in order to wind that capacity down in a very responsible way. You need to invest to bring their carbon footprint down. You need to take capital and help these companies invest in expertise and help them transform over a broad over a very long time frame so it's about the right long term orientation. But understanding that there is a transition involved. We need to apply expertise to the situation and really rather than investing in divesting I'm sorry and thinking that the problem will solve itself. We actually all working together have to invest properly to enable this transition to occur the right way. That's really helpful. Well, Josh, let me turn to you because Q's mentioned the governance in the private markets and can you talk a little bit about the governance structures and how they have enabled either an agile response in times of crisis or to this transition point could be part of the solution in terms of transitioning over a period of time is that easier to do in the private markets with the private governance structure than the public markets. It's a great question and thanks Sarah for for it and for the chance to be here. I think what we can certainly say is that the private capital model seems to really work during these times of discontent with the times of crisis. And, you know, for instance, when my colleague Shai Bernstein and Belipo knows on we looked very carefully at the global financial crisis and it's exactly in the UK. The nice thing about the UK is that private companies have to disclose a lot of information on their income statements and balance sheets. You can really see what's going on. And what was very striking is the private equity backed firms relative to the peers not only reacted much more quickly in terms of realizing that something was gaping. So, for instance, you know, pushing aggressively and drawing down their receivables and so forth in response to the crisis. But then in the years to come, they got considerably more investments in the form of bank loans and equity investments relative to the peers. Now, of course, the amount of inflows from banks and equity fell relative to what it was, you know, seven, but it fell considerably less than it did for the non private. And if you move forward a few more years, what you saw is that those private equity backed companies were able to invest more and ultimately gain market share, presumably as a result of not being as capital constrained and being more agile during the crisis than their non private. So in many ways that it really underscored, you know, some of the advantages that private equity bring bring to the table. Now, I guess when it comes to the broader question of saying, is does private equity have the same kind of advantage when it comes to the energy transition? It's a really interesting question. I mean, one of the things that probably brought out the best in private equity in GFC was it was so immediate and, you know, just was sort of hitting people over the head so we've got to do something right now. Clearly, this is, you know, while it's certainly happening, unfortunately, a lot quicker than I think most of us expected and hope for the kind of pressures we're seeing today are clearly ones that are not something about next week or next year, but over a number of years. And it's interesting to think about what extent, you know, some of the real strengths of private equity will rise to the challenge in this context. So they and do you think that the ability to react to a crisis to use your example in the in the UK was about having the governance in place before the crisis hit or was it about the incentives that were in place such that if they responded well that there would be some upside there. Yeah, it's really interesting. Right. We talked to a number of the both private equity they acted non privately that CEOs of the operating companies tried to say, was this really a case of the carrot or the stick right what you know to what extent was private equity groups, telling you what to do something and how much of it was more the the mentorship or guidance. And I think the answer seems to be it's a little bit about right but certainly an important part of it was just simply getting, you know, by early years a number of the CEOs mentioned their their private equity managers were saying something really real is right now in a way that many of their peers just simply didn't seem to didn't seem to recognize the magnitude of what was about to take like what was already happening was like right. Well, John, if I come back to you I know CPP has investments in both private and public. And sometimes the the lines between those are blurring. You respond to what Josh was saying about the governance and the incentives, and how do you think about the challenges of, you know, the public and private markets competing competing with each other in different ways and perhaps they used to, particularly as we try to think about this sustainability agenda going forward. Yeah, and maybe before jumping to the blurring maybe I'll just comment on something that Q mentioned and also Josh mentioned and with this energy transition and as Q mentioned is more than energy transition it's an economy transition. The whole economy needs to transition. And we talked about operating in a crisis and not, you know, are reacting to a crisis but it's also operating in a crisis. And some of the benefits has been highlighted on the private markets is the ability to have the governance and the influence and the control at times actually operate. And with sustainability there is very much a crisis mentality and people approaching it as a crisis and moving forward with it. With respect to the blurring between the public and the private and as as an organization that, as you mentioned invest in both the public and the private and that is something that we're seeing a blurring over the past few years and and SPACs have continued to contribute to the to the blurring and you know, maybe just one observation or one area where where we've seen it is is really trying to some of the early stage growth technology. And some of the some of the growth technology especially in sustainability in agriculture in the circular economy. And we're seeing these companies need access to capital and but are probably still at a stage where historically they wouldn't have IPO'd. But the the SPACs have allowed and facilitated some of them to get into the public markets earlier than they that they have in the past. So what does this mean with respect to the blurring of the public in the private. I think one of the worst thing is probably more volatility actually at times within some of the public markets and there's a scarcity in the with some of these companies and some of these companies that have new technologies which is impacting the the valuations of some of these companies in the in the in the public markets. Okay, so let's let's turn a little bit to this disclosure point. I think Josh you raised this a bit about the fact that in the UK actually private companies disclose a lot so you could actually do academic work on them. That is not the case in most parts of the world. So, Stephanie if I come back to you, is it important for us to get sustainability disclosures from the private market. Is it, you know, is it is it okay for us to have a lot more transparency in the public market or is there is there some sort of carrot to use John's word for the private market companies to be more transparent in terms of their sustainability disclosures. Sarah we come out of the crisis and we really think about building back as I said earlier green resiliently and inclusively, we do have to look to emerging markets and we know that the public markets and most of our countries of operations aren't deep enough to fund what's necessary to build a future economy I think is is what a few of the other panelists have said. In the first countries are really crowded out by government government issuance so your choice is private markets. Add to that the fact that if we get this wrong in emerging and developing countries. That's where more than the majority of greenhouse gas emissions growth is going to come in the next decade. So we really need to figure out how do we get it right. And I have seen in particular aren't a bad place to start. We do have performance standards and those performance standards drive transparency in all that we do. They've been adopted through the equator principles by 197 banks around the world. So again, another place to start when we think about private markets. That's enough and I think we need to go back to what I said in the beginning which is one policy and regulation and here I think further regulation around disclosure is super important and reporting would help considerably whether or not it was public or private and certainly in emerging markets we're driving our government clients to be thinking about that. Second and there's been a couple of comments about technologies in order for us to really get this right in the private markets. We need to take those emerging technologies some of which are proven but the cost curves haven't come down. Others are completely unproven. If we can actually get to a point where we can have some first loss money and some blending to drive those costs down we can start to have impact. And I think about again, mirroring people's commitments to net zero so six of the largest banks in the United States have committed to net zero. They don't have any idea how to get there and how to bring their clients there. Carbon credits might be a place to start and using some of that carbon credit funding as first loss in those structures and emerging markets may be a really interesting solution. And then finally as I said before we need projects, projects, projects to be investing in and we need to get them developed because we're not going to get to net zero if we can't figure out how to create those projects in the world's poorest countries. So let me ask you a little bit more about the carbon credits. Are you thinking about those in a private market way or are you thinking about those in a more public market carbon credit mindset? Is there a tie between the projects and the carbon credits in the private markets and emerging markets? Is there a way to make that happen? What I'm thinking, yeah, and I'm actually thinking that they probably don't become a tradable instrument that in fact what it becomes, I mean in essence today what net zero means for the big institutions that have committed to it is in a way a carbon tax. How do they get there we need to figure out? But if we can marry that tax if you will with what we need to actually create the right kinds of projects in emerging markets to prevent the further growth of GHG emissions. And to pull coal out of some of the markets where otherwise we won't be able to. It's a really interesting idea. So Q, let me come back to you. You mentioned this idea of investing in new technologies that may lead to a greener world as well as investing in sort of brown companies that are trying to get there, that are in the transition. Do you think that there's, what is the driver? Is it trying to get to net zero and therefore you get into this sort of transition carbon credit mindset? Is it coming at it from the other way, which is changing the technology, moving it from a more economic view? What's the target? Is it something like net zero or is it really transitioning to a different business model? Yeah, I think that it's a really good question, Sarah, in the sense that I think lots of folks think about this from a very technical or a metric driven lens. And I like to think about this much more culturally. And I think what's really important is, you know, and this is what we're trying to do at Carlyle, and we've been working at it, is embed the notion that driving companies to be better companies, being on the diversity front, be it better governance, be it driving better sustainability practices, improving your supply chains, you know, recreating the inputs and your formulations for your products to be more green, that doing all that actually drives better performance. It makes these companies better. It drives better performance, and hence it's that virtuous circle where you're not only doing great for the environment, but you're actually making your companies perform better and driving for all stakeholders, right? And so I think it's a cultural mindset attitude that you can't just do at a portfolio level. It's got to be very granular at each company, working with them, partnering with them with a mindset that we're going to make you a better company. And then the last ingredient for us is to create alignment. And so what we've done in lots of companies is put in, for instance, credit facilities where cost of capital goes down if you reduce your water usage, or where cost of capital goes down from the banks, if you reduce your carbon footprint. Right? So, you know, there's no silver bullets, you got to do a ton of different things. But I think it starts with the fact that it needs to be very ingrained in the investment ethos of your organization that you need to drive all of this very culturally to attain the aspirate, you know, to shoot for the aspiration that we're trying to make our companies better, they can perform better, you get better outcomes, and it all becomes a virtuous circle. It makes sense. Josh, you said you might want to jump in here to tell me what, do you have a reaction to what Q just said? Well, I just wanted to underscore one point that this is not just a game about divestment, that there's a lot more going on here in terms of strategy. There was a fascinating paper recently done by my colleague, Lauren Cohn, where he looked at the most important patents related to clean pack that have been built over the last 25 years. And one of the things that was so striking is how many of them were created by, you know, by dirty companies, you know, who would normally be sort of seen as targets for investment. Yet they by far were creating the most and the most impactful of these investments. So it's really, I mean, I think I just wanted to echo the point that rather than thinking of blue lens of saying let's just not invest in X, Y, and Z, it's more about how can we work with people with the assets to bring the economy to the next level. Great. All right, so, so Josh, I'm going to ask you to give us the bear case that we've talked a lot here about what a good impact private markets can have, how they can really drive sustainability. But what are some factors that might hold the private markets back, you know, what, what is what's going to get in the way of this vision. Well, I think if you would ask me this question, right before the pandemic, I think there would have been a very clear answer, which would be returns and the relative performance of private private markets versus other markets. We have done some, you know, small work with State Street and Spain and Company, which they featured in their 2020 report, which is sort of highlighted how, you know, when you compared, you know, private equity returns, which not only look quite good, but when you compared them net to the public markets, which had also done very well, it seemed that you weren't, you know, that what initially had been a huge private equity advantage in the 80s and 90s seemed to in the, you know, particularly in the decade after the GFC to just sort of go away. And there, there's really wasn't much private private capital advantage. And given the sort of complexity of choosing managers and managing portfolios and the like, it was natural to wonder whether at some point that would sort of trigger, you know, a process of disillusionment between private private markets and owners that would emulate, you know, CPPIB and try to do more stuff in the house to avoid the fees or whether it would just mean going to replicating public market strategies and so forth. One doesn't know. Now, when you look at what's happened in the last, you know, 18 months, it's clearly been a much more favorable picture for private capital growth. And it seems that not perhaps not surprisingly, you know, private markets have really done well in a situation where there's a lot of uncertainty and instability and where the kind of judgment that requires these needs to be there. But I guess if we're, if we really think that hope, we're going back to, you know, normal. I guess that that question around what is going to be the private capital advantage and how much extra are you going to get. And we'll ask the owners, you know, continue to see this as something that is indeed, you know, worth the cost in terms of illiquidity and complexity relative to disappointing market and public indexes or whatever. But it sounds so it sounds like what you're obviously the numbers of the last year or so have, you know, it's all end point dependent right but many of those many of the things that have blown those numbers out have been new companies tech companies and so on. Obviously different there are different parts of the private market spectrum. Do you think that that's just the, you know, normal sort of, you know, migration, there's a good return here to the good return there. And that your, your trend line is, is broken or do you think that this is sort of, you know, that the trend is still there because there's so much more competition in the private markets and and we've got a blip here, I'm asking you to to to I know, I mean, it is, we just did an update on our on our case in the Yale endowment, we're able to finish right before David Swenson passed away. And, you know, what was so striking is you look at the 2011 version of the case and their tiny returns for venture capital were on the order of 1%. And yet they, they not only stuck with venture but doubled down on it. And clearly you look at things from the perspective of the end of the 2020 fiscal year right now it's, you know, close to 30% returns, you know, over a decade. And, you know, clearly this is a business which has, you know, very good years and very late years is slightly biblical and that in that sense. But I think it is an open question as to to what extent this represents just simply business as usual where you have some good years or whether the, you know, the sort of broader trend, the moving average is sort of indicative of some, whether due to competition or something else, just there being less of a private capital. Right well john let me come back to you on this one which is as you think about this sort of private public and where there are real opportunities both from sort of a pure return point of view but also from the point of view of advancing a sustainability agenda. Can you tell us some of the things that you're most excited about? Is it the cool little tech companies? Is it the investing in the brown companies that want to be green? You know, how do you, where do you, where do you have the most interest these days? Probably all of it but he, I'd say that in building on some of the previous comments that, you know, we do really see this as an economy transition. We do really see this as opportunities across the entire economy and more traditional industrial companies. And to Stephanie's comments on emerging markets, we have, you know, for an institutional investor we've been quite active in emerging markets and continue to be quite active in emerging markets and because of our concentration emerging markets, it does, you know, we do see a carbon intensity in the portfolio but part of it is actually investing in companies that are transitioning and investing in infrastructure projects in different emerging markets around the world. Let's speak more broadly where we see the opportunities and also coming back to Josh's comment on divestment. We've been very clear that we're not going to pursue a path of divestment. We're going to pursue a path of engagement. We're going to pursue a path of partnership with companies. And this includes investing across the entire energy spectrum. We personally see a lot of, you know, engineering and scientific know-how in some of the more traditional energy companies and kind of viewed divestment as a, in many ways, a short on human ingenuity that is coming out of these companies. We have one example in our portfolio, a company that we seeded a few years ago that's a midstream company in Western Canada. That was a traditional midstream company called Wolf Midstream. And they're now the developer and operator of one of the largest carbon capture and utilization storage pipelines in Canada, if not the largest. And it's really that engineering know-how they have that they were able to apply to this new technology. So we're continuing to look for these opportunities, continuing to look for where we see the engineering, the scientific know-how that can be applied to these problems. So it's kind of all of it and it's across the entire spectrum because we do see this as an economy transition. So Q, let me come back to you. You also look across a number of different things, whether it might be early stage, later stage, infrastructure, so on. What are you most excited about when it comes to both the return opportunities and the opportunities to push sustainability? Sure. Yeah, I mean, similar to John's answer, I think what's happened over the past several years. COVID has accelerated it, but the whole digital revolution, but also now the focus on climate, these are orthogonal changes that are affecting every single industry across the board throughout the economy to John's good point. So I'm actually seeing, we're seeing an unleashing of opportunities, big companies, small companies mature incumbents that are embracing digital in order to improve their operations. We're seeing young upstarts and disruptors and growth companies and we have a platform that allows us to pivot to see the best of both. And I, and I'm very long term pretty darn bullish about the fact that the opportunities are up and down the spectrum, but the other axis I throw in, and Stephanie has been pushing on this is we see this globally. It's in India. It's in China. It's in, you know, parts of Southeast Asia, it's in Latin America, you know, across the world, you're seeing these types of opportunities because it's like I said, it's an unleashing of an orthogonal disruption. And we have to also come to grips that different countries are at different stages with respect to transition. We can't assume that certain countries are just going to be able to flip a switch and do it overnight. I mean, we can't hear. And so we're going to, it's going to take a lot of a very multicultural appreciation to navigate through, which is why, you know, we see great opportunities in Europe, whether it's flounder and, you know, turbines for wind or whether it's in America with some of the growth companies we're seeing or whether it's manufacturing companies in apparel, where we're trying to reduce their water usage while improving their profitability and their growth. So it's multi-dimensional, Sarah. It's big companies, small companies, old technologies, new technologies. And it's also around the world because of the nature of the disruption and the changes that are occurring. And that disruption is everywhere. We had Mark Carney on a podcast recently, and you may know he's written a book, but one of the things he quipped in there was, you know, nobody said, here comes the smartphone, there goes the taxi business. And so I think it's the question is, you know, here comes climate change. There goes, what business, what is it that we're not thinking of? Stephanie, is there, can you pick opportunities? Is it like choosing among your children to talk about which, you know, emerging market? Maybe you can't, but are there great opportunities that you could really point to from a positive point of view in any of the markets you operate in in particular? Well, so Sarah, opportunities abound. And everybody's right. It's a global challenge, and we can't let go of emerging markets. But, you know, I'd start with what you said about, you know, no one saw the smartphone coming. I think about the disruptors in Silicon Valley who look at sectors and say, OK, how do I disrupt this sector? And then they build a technology platform. We need to do the same thing with development challenges and technology. So what are the really hard development challenges and how do we apply technology to do that? And quite frankly, I think there's going to be substantive investment and money to be made where we do well and do good in technology. And I look at, you know, hard industries to correct for, like manufacturing heavy industries. How do we make clean steel? How do we make clean cement? There's going to be technologies that are going to be invented if they haven't already. What we need in emerging markets, though, is some kind of de-risking and blended finance to drive those cost curves down. Exactly what we saw with mobile. You know, mobile started as a luxury item in the developed world and ended up, you know, in the poorest countries of the world creating connectivity. The same thing happened with solar panels. It took us 10 years to get to a point where solar was cheap enough for every country in the world to be able to use. What I'd like to do is figure out how can we move more rapidly with those different kinds of technologies to drive them into emerging markets faster. Because we will, again, do well and do good. So how do we drive more of those projects that you're interested in that can do well and do good? What can the, you know, if you could speak to these big, you know, private investors who are on the screen today. What can, what sparks those projects that then leads to the ability to put money behind it and then tackle some of those challenges you mentioned? So I actually think all of the investors who are on the call with us today will come into those projects if the projects exist. I think the question is how do we create those projects. And this is where we need to marry philanthropy and public money, donor money, to actually generate the right policy and regulation and then the projects themselves because Q and John are sitting on capital and they'll go after those projects if we can stack them up properly. And, you know, there's clearly a role for IFC to play in getting many of those off the taxi rank. And, you know, we do invest across the capital stack and can do lots of interesting things with John, with Q and with others. But we really need to spend time focusing on building those project pipelines first because they're not there now. Well, maybe Josh can help by getting the students at HBS to push on the push on those for those two. So, Josh, any thoughts on opportunities that you see that are exciting for you as you as you look at either emerging markets, private markets, other places. What's what do you find most interesting. Well, I mean, it's certainly hard not to be fascinated by what is really happening with the fusion of technologies today, right. And, you know, on the one side, you know, you certainly seen, you know, existing technologies being adopted into many traditional verticals and so forth. But for me, the big question still remains, you know, that venture is amazingly good at transforming, you know, it's starting new businesses in the IT area and probably 25 cities in the world, most of which in the US and in China. And the question that I find really most fascinating is, is there a way to sort of have some of the creativity and governance associated with that process, and have it sort of use out more, more generally to areas like clean tack dance materials, and so forth. I mean, certainly, there's been, you know, many efforts over the years to try to do investments in those areas. Some of them have worked but by and large, it just hasn't been quite as exciting as IT in terms of returns and there's, when you look over the long haul of the venture industry, it seems that a lot of the money has gone into IT areas and has been tremendously successful, but there's a huge amount of other technologies that would certainly benefit from the governance and finance there. So how do we take some of the things that we've talked about today in terms of governance and incentives and, and so on and really apply them even more to the to the clean tech space. Well, I'm looking at our clock and we are, it's about time for us to wrap up. So, you know, if I could, if I could try to summarize it sounds to me like there's a huge opportunity for private markets, both in terms of pushing the transition and brown assets that are greening, funding potential new technologies, whether it's clean tech or other sorts of things, using that governance structure and incentive structure to align interest towards different goals, maybe changing cultures a little bit to try to capture those goals and really thinking about this in all countries from the, you know, from the US and other wealthy countries all the way down to the ones that are really in need of these exciting projects to get things off the ground. So with that, I think what we're going to do at this point is that we're going to thank everybody who has been on the line with us, and we are going to transition to a Chatham House discussion with the pot with the top link participants. So with that, I'm going to thank each of you very much in the order that you're on my screen. Josh, thank you, Stephanie, John, Q, thank you so much for your insight today, and for all the work that you're doing in trying to really marry this idea of putting the force and the advantages of the private markets together with this idea of advancing a sustainability agenda.