 Preview II, Alexis de Tocqueville. NBC invites you to listen to the second of two discussion programs previewing NBC's dramatic radio series, Democracy in America, based on the classic work of Alexis de Tocqueville, a young French nobleman who visited the United States in 1831-32 at the time of President Andrew Jackson. De Tocqueville was so impressed with our new young nation that he wrote Democracy in America, a claimed all over the world as the definitive book on America. It's interesting to note that Tocqueville's precepts are almost as true today as when they were first written. This weekly series of 14 half-hour dramatizations of American democratic life based on de Tocqueville's book will have its world premiere on the NBC radio network tomorrow night, Wednesday, January the 17th, at the same time over most of these NBC stations. And now, preview II, Alexis de Tocqueville. Our special guest this evening is His Excellency, Hervé Alfond, French ambassador to the United States. And here is Dorothy Gordon, known to you as the founder and moderator of Youth Forums, an author of the book You and Democracy, a book for children, Miss Gordon. Ambassador Alfond, it's very good of you to be with us. And I understand you say that you had to dig back into your school days to speak about de Tocqueville's book on American democracy. Oh, but I want to say that I didn't read the entire book since my school days, but it's an immortal work and we have to read and read it again, especially when you're a French ambassador to the United States. Or just an American student, as it were, because many of our American students are going to listen to these broadcasts that are going to be sent over the country. But actually, we wish to take advantage of your presence here to cover a wider field, to discuss America today and its relation to France. But first, do let me introduce you to the listening audience. I want to tell you that our guest, Ambassador Hervé Alfond, was the permanent delegate of France to the United Nations and her representative in the Security Council until his appointment as Ambassador of France to the United States in 1956. He's the son of Charles Hervé Alfond, former ambassador from France to Moscow, so you see he comes to an ambassador ship very naturally. Ambassador Alfond's name is a very familiar one in America and he himself has been part of Franco-American relations since... Well, am I right? Was it in 1940 that you first came here? Yes, I came in 1940, but I was head of the economic section of the Foreign Office in France when I negotiated the trade agreement between France and America in 1938, so that was a long time ago. Yes, further than that. But then I'm right in saying that your name is a familiar one here in the United States. Now, looking back at de Tocqueville's writings on American democracy, I found the following actual quote. He wrote, and this was a hundred years ago, the advent of democracy as a governing power in the world's affairs, universal and irresistible, was at hand. It may be said that this day it depends upon us whether the Republic shall be everywhere finally established or everywhere finally overthrown. Now, what you say, Mr. Ambassador, that those words could have been written today, is that the great problem both France and America are facing, the maintaining of our democratic institutions? It seems to me, Mrs. Gordon, that these words are, in fact, very true today. Not only France and America, but all Western democracies are facing the problems of defending their institutions. Democracy is very hard to get. Democracy is even harder to keep. And it is a constant struggle against the various forces from the extreme right or the extreme left, so as to keep those precious institutions. Those enemies are coming, as I said, from the fascist elements as well as the communist elements, and I can speak here for my country. But I can speak also with hope because the roots of democracy in France are very deep because the will and the tradition of the French people is well known and because the continuing progress of our economy, of our social welfare is such that we will certainly win in this constant struggle against the forces while opposing democracy in my country. Well, I think de Tocqueville was greatly impressed by the objectives of freedom, and I want to move into this question about the many new nations that are achieving independence. Would you tell us what a nation's purpose should be? What would you say are the basic needs of people everywhere? Well, I think that basically we must make a difference between independence and freedom. I think you can be an independent country and ignore entirely freedom. And it takes a very long time to acquire this idea of freedom. The basic needs to acquire this freedom is first of all, it seems to me, education and understanding of the problem. But also there are other prerequisites. You must have a civil service which is well organized and obedient of the state. You must have an army which is the servant of the state and also I must say that democracy is always linked with a certain degree of economic progress and wealth in the country. But time is probably the major element. Mr. Ambassador, freedom is something which people just have and until they lose it they're not aware that they have it. Do you think that people are apt to take their freedom, democracy just for granted? Well, I think many people in our two countries think that there is no danger anyway that the dangers are less than they are in fact. They ignore the warnings. The warnings have been given by the communists themselves. I remember when Khrushchev came in this country two or three years ago, he said on the TV that he was sure that your grandchildren would be communists. He said that. Did he use the word communist or did he say socialist? No, he said communist. And the great majority of his listeners ignore this threat. This threat exists and maybe this ignorance of the threat is a danger in itself. So it's important that we should know that dictatorial regimes either from the right or from the left is still a great danger on this very fragile thing called democracy. Which brings me to a rather important question and that is whether poverty, hunger, disease force people to accept aid when it's offered. It might be offered from the left, it might be offered from the right and because of their great need, they are apt to accept it anywhere. Well, how important is it for the free nations to be aided toward achieving a higher standard of living? I think it is very important for the free nations to be aided toward achieving a higher standard of living. I think that hunger and poverty might lead to a totalitarian form of government. We are doing that as far as France is concerned, vis-à-vis, especially vis-à-vis our former colonies who are now independent in Africa. I think we are very lucky to keep good relations with the great majority of these former colonies and to help them in education, in the economic field, in buying their crops, and I think it's a contribution of France to democracy in itself. Well, isn't leadership important? And isn't, you used the word education before, it was very important to give of our technical skills and teachers and education, but isn't education very important to educate leaders in these new emerging countries? I think leadership and education are linked to have the leaders you must educate them. It is also a thing that we did before giving them independence. They came in our universities, they studied with our own students, and we formed a great number of very good statesmen who are now the heads of these various independent countries of Africa. Yes, but can democracy flourish in nations faced with hunger and poverty and lack of technical skills to develop their natural resources? Well, I think we have examples of countries which are very poor and which are democratic. If you take, for instance, it's an example that I can quote, the former colonies of France in black Africa. Here you have 12 countries including Madagascar who are rather poor and are definitely democratic. But, of course, it's much more difficult for those countries to maintain a democratic system as the one we cherish in our own countries of the West with these enormous economic problems. It is why I think the duty of the Western democracies and the industrialized countries of the world is to help those new nations, not only to help them with our money, with their budget, but to help them with our technicians, with our educators, with also something more, with our trade. I think it's very important that they should find in our markets the way to export their goods at a certain price so that they can build their economy and go on the way of progress. This comes right into your own area in the series of dramatizations of Tocqueville's American democracy. Tocqueville was greatly impressed by America's emphasis on trade and, of course, we are now in a situation where we are moving away from the sort of common market which America established. Would you say that our economic strength was made possible because we did have the freedom to compete and to move men and goods across borders? I would say that definitely. Tocqueville views are still very true on this field. I think the fact that America is so powerful today is due to the extraordinary extension of the market, of the economic market of America. And that is certainly sort of fascination for the people of Europe to see the progress of your economy due to the free flow of goods but also of men and capital inside a very great unity. Well, Ambassador Alfons, you played a major role in the economic development of Europe after the war and you drew up the 16 Nation Report on the Marshall Plan, didn't you? You were the father of that plan. Isn't the same kind of economic abundance developing in Europe now through the common market? I must say that the example of the United States was present in our minds when the first idea of the common market was invented, I must say, by French people just after the war. Was it Schumann that... It was Robert Schumann and Jean Monnet and some others who really had the idea of making a big economic unit in Europe. I must add this that it is much more difficult for Europe to create such a market that it was for the 13 colonies when the United States was founded. Why? Because they have their own language. They have their own tradition, their own history and they were all very protectionist. They had their own buyer around their frontiers and to suddenly decide that they will ignore all this and make one unit and make something which will be a step towards the United States of Europe one day. We don't know when. The six different countries. Yes, they are and maybe there will be seven if England joins. But the idea of having this big market certainly was the same as the one that you had. It's not only a question of trade. As you said, a question of exchange of men as well as capital and also is a sort of common policy about the main problems of economy. Agriculture, social, welfare, fiscal legislation, anti-carte legislation which makes not only a free trade area but a real economic union between those countries. If I remember correctly, years ago, I think you've always been very much interested in the United States of Europe. Is this a movement towards the United States of Europe? It's definitely a movement towards the United States of Europe and France and the General de Gaulle, as you know, wants to make it also political because he's in favor of a unity of the various nations of Europe and we propose to our partners a new plan which is a beginning towards unity. We don't know how and when it could be achieved for the reasons I mentioned to you and for the reasons for these reasons it might be only a confederation of states instead of being as you are a federation of states but definitely we are moving towards this goal. So it's quite a unity. Well, of course, a question which troubles some of our industrialists here is the question whether the common market will build a trade wall around itself and then shut us out or will we cooperate with each other? Do France and America need each other today as we did in 1830 when Tocqueville was here? I can answer very definitively to this question. I think we don't want at all to replace the former protectionism of the small nations of Europe by a new protectionism of the unity of Europe. What we want to do is a great new economic power which will be liberal in its trade with all the world including the United States, of course. Therefore, I think that we will hope that on your side you will understand that you will have to gain economically from the force, from the strength, from the resources of this new market because if we are more wealth we can buy more from you if the duties are not too high and we hope that it will be great progress in the exchange of goods between America and Europe which is needed, as you said, even more than in 1830 because the threat is greater than it has been for centuries. Do you mind if I quote President Kennedy and ask you a question of what a statement that he made and he said that he requests, as you know he's been requesting reduced tariffs and I'm going to quote, he said that there is a great potential if the two great markets, as the European Economic Community and the United States, were to be harnessed together into a team capable of pulling the full weight of our common military, economic and political aspirations. Now, how much does a world peace depend upon the flow of trade between the free nations of the world? Well, I think President Kennedy's remarks are absolutely shared by our government. We think, of course, we don't know the details of his program and I don't want to interfere in Julie with the work of your Congress and your domestic affairs. It's coming up very strongly right now. In fact, it is a problem of common interest and therefore I can say that if we go protectionists again I think there will be a weakening of the Western world. When you say we, are you referring to the United States? I say both, America and the European market. If on the other side we are liberal in our trade and if we understand that we must have common policy in matters of currency of A-200 developed countries, of fiscal policies, etc. I think we will strengthen the West and it will be good for you, it will be good for us. I have no doubt that it is a direction for the West and for democracy to win in this big struggle which is going on. I have no doubt it is the only constructive step that we are taking really towards maintaining this sort of democracy which is yours and ours. Well, we need markets, we need imports as well as exports, don't we? Certainly. So that we would have to lower tariffs to increase our imports. I think it must be a reciprocal move. Do you think it's coming? Well, that's your problem. As far as we are concerned... I'm trying to get something out of you. As far as we are concerned we are ready to accept that the idea must be a reduction of all sort of barriers between the common market and the United States which is a great hope of a constructive program, policy of the West. Well, of course, this is a mutual understanding between the two countries which goes back pretty far. I say that our common interest dates back not only to the time of Tocqueville and his friend Beaumont's visit here but even further back than that the name Lafayette is legion in this country as you know and talking about trade wasn't the Panama Canal conceived first by a Frenchman? Yes, the Panama Canal was conceived by a French company. Yes, it was made first by a French company and then was abandoned and remade by another Frenchman. And then in the time of Theodore Roosevelt. You're right to say that the links between France and the United States are older than Tocqueville and that when I arrived here five years ago really I thought that Lafayette was an old cliche and I would not use it again. I was very wrong. Every time one of your distinguished citizens was making a toast he was referring to Lafayette. So I learned the story of Lafayette and he's a fascinating one. We have a Lafayette society here. He was so disinterested and he had also at the time of The King the sort of fascination for American democracy and it was a we helped you in the time of the revolution your revolution and after that it was in my view thanks to your revolution that the idea of democracy and liberty came to France due to Lafayette and his those who followed him in United States. And we continue this help this reciprocal aid through centuries through two wars in spite of very superficial disagreements we have an identity of moral and political principles since the very early days of your independence. And of course we do have a cultural exchange a great deal. Yes. Because I'm the only woman on the board of the Yes, yes. which you know of course and we work so much with the universities and the students in America. But I think the French is the first language here for language. Oh yes. Yes. Apart from English. Apart from English. Some Americans think the students ought to study English more. But that's by the way going back to Tocqueville because we are introducing the Tocqueville series I'm going to quote he said I have but one passion the love of liberty and of the dignity of man now the aims and purposes of our democracy of your democracy are to promote to the fullest the rights and the privileges and fulfillment of each individual regardless of race, creed or color would you say that these aims and purposes express the goals of one nation only or do they belong to all free independent nations? They belong to all free independent nations also they are not always implemented in the same way in all free independent nations but this is not a problem for France there is no problem of races or religion in my country the president of the French senate is a negro we had in the past the prime minister who was a Jewish we had a president who was a Protestant although we are a country of 90% Catholics so therefore there is no problem of religion and race in my country and it's one of the cornerstone of our policy under any kind of government in France don't you think that this is moving a great deal forward in this country too? well I think so I think so there is no doubt we see it all the time that there is an improvement in the relations and we certainly hope that it's going to be much more so Ambassador Alfon, what do you think of the idea of this broadcast of a series based on de Tocqueville's visit to America and his impressions of the republic in 1831? I think it's a wonderful idea I think you can find in de Tocqueville truths which are eternal truths which are very actual that it's very important that we should read again de Tocqueville in our troubled time well I think it's important to have it read here particularly because you say that when you were a student that you read de Tocqueville and I think that I took at random a half a dozen young people who said does the name de Tocqueville mean anything to you and it didn't Lafayette yes, the name Lafayette does it has more glamour and that's why this idea of putting the series on may be a very good thing are you familiar with the book I think that we had a copy sent to you the happy republic which was edited by George Probst don't you think that that is a very valuable book I think I repeat that it is an extremely valuable book I hope not only the name but the work of de Tocqueville should be more known in your country that it should become a classic of America as it is a classic in France well it is really a classic except that it has to be brought to the attention and this is what we're hoping to do now we open the program with a quote from de Tocqueville and I want to close with another one and this is written also more than a hundred years ago which could certainly apply today the quote is the first of the duties that are at this time imposed upon those who direct our affairs is to educate democracy to reawaken democracy if possible to reawaken its religious beliefs to purify its morals to regulate its actions wouldn't you say Mr. Ambassador that this is a task for all of us in France here too it is a task for all of us I think the menace that we have together to face together are such that we have to understand the words of de Tocqueville not only understand them but apply them every day well is there anything else that you want to say you could give us a closing statement we'd love to hear it well I'm extremely glad to have this talk with you Mrs. Gordon I want to say that I know you for a long time and I work with your son with now your ambassador in Brazil it was a very wonderful opportunity to have this talk with you on this very important topic well he has a tremendous admiration for you and I think that both of you seem to be working along the same idea and that is the question of trade of course I would like to ask you some more personal questions but I won't because it would be embarrassing to ask you what you think about what our congress will do when the president brings to them this whole question of lowering tariffs there is a great feeling though in the country that there is something that may have to happen well thank you very much indeed Ambassador Ave Alfaun it was a pleasure indeed to have you with us and I'm hoping to have you with me again on one of our youth forums thank you very much indeed you have been listening to Preview 2 Alexis de Tocqueville the second of two discussion programs previewing NBC's dramatic radio series Democracy in America based on the classic work of Alexis de Tocqueville this weekly series of 14 half hour dramatizations of American democratic life will have its world premiere on the NBC radio network tomorrow night Wednesday January the 17th at this same time over most of these NBC stations our moderator was Dorothy Gordon who had as her special guest His Excellency Ave Alfaun Ambassador of France to the United States this has been an NBC radio network presentation keep tuned to the world with Radio NBC