 Good evening and welcome to episode 312 of the private property podcast. I'm your host, Usama Domoakumalo. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome to the early daily property podcast in South Africa that helps you on all your property needs. It doesn't matter where in your property journey you are, we certainly hire to provide a great resource to help you make better property decisions. And to all our regular viewers at home, whether you're watching us on Facebook, on YouTube or even on Instagram, welcome to it. You know how we do every single weekday. You and I have an appointment where we're always in conversation with the property expert who helps us navigate our property journey. And of course, I absolutely love hearing from you at home. Love seeing the love that you show us, especially in the comments section, for the people who are watching us on Facebook. So do show us some love. Love seeing those greenhouse that you always sent us. And of course, share their lives so your friends and family can join in in the property conversation. And talking about the property conversation, you can of course catch other shows across private properties social media pages every single weekday at 8pm. As it is a Wednesday, you can catch a warden and farmer. Actually, it's Wednesday. So it's actually a stick lesson who's going to be bringing the first time home by the show. And she'll be in conversation with somebody that we've had a few times on the, you know, on the private property forecast with myself that is and they'll be looking at, you know, women being able to access property without having a lot of money done. So that's going to be a great conversation that you can look forward to at 8pm with a stick lesson. And every Wednesday and every Tuesdays and Thursdays, that's when you can catch a warden and farmer or bringing you all things agriculture and always speaking with great experts who help us have a better grasp on our agricultural needs. And every Monday and Friday's child brings you through the home shopper show. So if you're in the market for a new property, make sure that you tune into the show as he takes us through exquisite properties that you can find on www.privateproperty.co.za. Those are the great shows that you can catch every single weekday at 8pm. So to make sure that you set your appointment. And of course, there's myself every single weekday at 7pm. We all have, we're always in conversation and of course have an appointment where there's always some other property topic that we are tackling that helps us along in our journey. This evening's conversation is primarily for tenants and landlords. And this is quite a big one because we're still unfortunately seeing a large number of both tenants and landlords not having a very good understanding of the legal parameters when it comes to lease agreements and living in a rented property, what you can or cannot do from both sides. And so this evening, we're going to be looking at what you need to know about the Rental Housing Act. But the new Rental Housing Act, as you've probably been following up, it's been, it's gotten amended. And there have been some changes that were tabled in the amended version. I think it is the, the, the, the amendments, the last amendment was the rental housing amendment Act 35 of 2014. And we've seen some of the changes that a lot of people within the property space have actually some have welcomed. Others are saying it's making things even more difficult for landlords. Well, this evening, we're going to be looking at key things that you need to be aware of. And, and, and I, and I said this one is actually a big one for tenants and landlords because you're really going to get a good grasp of what the legal parameters are, what these changes mean for both landlords and tenants and what happens in the event where especially as a tenant, as a person is a landlord in the event where you don't keep to what the Act essentially prescribes and help us get a better sense of a lot of the legalities because I know law can be one of those very intimidating things I was saying to, you know, to my guests of air that I am actually doing one of the courses I'm doing is, you know, property law. So I know how, how dense it can get. But we're doing a really great executive summary of this and not looking at subcrosers because that's not what we're here for. And my guest this evening is Megan Liprock who's a general manager at Only Realty Group. Megan, good evening and thank you so much for joining us. Hi Zama, how are you? I'm really great Megan. Thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure to have you with us on the show. Now, I think the big thing with this, you know, with the Amendment Act is perhaps let's take it from, from the top, you know, because as we were talking of one of the things I had asked you was, I was trying to check if it's now in effect or the president still hasn't been posited yet because I feel as though this has been such a long ongoing thing. A part of me thought maybe it had been posited it's now in law. I'm just not aware of it because I know a lot of property professionals are like already act as though it's already in law as opposed to, you know, waiting for it to finally be coseted and be in law. Perhaps first just take us through the previous version where we are now because I know it's a long historical sort of lesson if we look at the rental housing act in its entirety and let's not do that. Let's fast forward to essentially where we currently are. Where we are today. And so firstly I think it's great that people are acting as if it already is enforced. It's currently not but the changes are already positive changes. I know people have been a little bit uncertain but the changes are good so the sooner people can adapt to them the easier it will be when it is coseted it is enforced. So the biggest change that we've seen that I think will affect most landlords, especially landlords that are renting their house, are privately as you can no longer have a verbal lease agreement. So that I think is a big thing to protect tenants but also to protect the owner and having everything down and writing having everything that everybody understands in clear language that everyone's on the same page it can only be a positive thing. So ultimately that act as a whole the changes the amendments is really just providing better protection for tenants. And I think Megan on other things and it's what you've just said that it's providing better protection for tenants. I know that a lot of landlords already feel as though the law protects tenants almost unequally relative to them and that's probably a discussion for a different day and more often than not when landlords say that I always push back and so you actually need to fundamentally understand the historical context of why that would be the case and it's just too far soon from where we come from historically to suddenly place landlords with quite a significant amount of power. So you almost need to put those systems in place because the reality of a lot of South Africans is they still pretty much live that reality. So in as much as it can be frustrating for landlords especially when they end up dealing with tenants who are not paying or damaging their property or whatever the case we need to also understand the the era that we're living in and the context that we're living in and and this is really me saying this to landlords and as a landlord myself, as a property investor myself, I know how painful it can be with anything. I'm really fortunate that that hasn't been a reality that I have faced for the most part, but we really do need to not forget where we are historically at this sector. Now I see some of the love that we're getting on our Facebook page and Abdullah al-Butin is the second time I'm seeing you. The team has been sending me of course all the different comments that you say down here below. So this is twice in a row. And of course, I'll read them out in Wacky Wednesday. Special greetings from my ladies. We're back at it later. Of course, we are back, which is referring to as well as seeing that we'll be countered at the end with the first time home buyers show and seeing more and more love on our social media pages of your home. And I'll be coming back to those shortly. Megan, I want us to look at the amendment act, which is a decent right that stands people are effectively able to have. So 312 of the private property podcast on your host, Ozamantou Mouakumalo. Well, we had some gremlins in the system, but we're back and we do apologize for that break in a transmission. And of course, we have been getting quite a lot of love from you on our social media pages. Those of you are watching us on Facebook, I see you. And I also see who is this Of course, this evening, we're looking at what you need to know about the new rental housing abdomen conversation with Megan Ladbrook, who's a general manager at only Realty Group and really looking at what the new changes mean for both landlord and the tenant. Before we cut off Megan, I was saying that the one key thing that you've already outlined is that the lease agreement must be in writing. Let's go through some of the other key changes that are going to also protect tenants. As you were saying earlier that one of the core things with the amendment is that tenants are going to be very well protected when this comes into effect. So Ozamantou, I think the scariest thing for landlords is that now they'll be held criminally liable if they don't comply with the new regulations. So I mean, that's a huge change and it's really beneficial for tenants. I know it's scary for landlords, but if you're a landlord who's got great intentions and doing what you should be doing and looking after your tenant who's essentially your client, you know, you running a service, they're taking the service from you. So it's really holding them accountable for taking care of their clients. And so I think that's probably the scariest thing that and what I've seen that people have latched on to the most out of these changes. But ultimately, you shouldn't have been doing these things the wrong way in the first place. So if your intentions are good and you're going to be honoring the terms of your agreement, then you shouldn't be concerned. And it's such a big one. I think one of the things that I appreciate about it is, and we're talking about this, you know, of air and it's already something that we know is not legal to do in any case in South Africa. And that is denying tenants access to, you know, property in the event where, you know, they're not paying or cutting off things like water and electricity. And we know that that's such a key thing to have consequences of because what we're currently seeing now is landlords are still doing it. I mean, I've said to viewers I've gone before that I've certainly been in groups where landlords will say, you know, I bring in guys or we take in a door or we cut all kinds of utilities. And all these kinds of things, right? I mean, landlords literally sharing tips of how they gotten rid of not paying tenants. And as much as the landlords know that that is not legal, there are also no really ramifications when they do do it. And that's why they've been able to, you know, get away with it so much. Megan, I want you to just take us through the issue of the deposit, because this is also one of those things that becomes such a contentious one. I've seen way too many tenants not know about what can or cannot be done about their deposit or landlords misusing the deposit, perhaps take us through the handling of the deposit. So some of the deposit is probably it's such a big financial investment for a tenant. You know, if you're a tenant in most instances, it's a huge cash flow and issue right at the beginning of the lease. It's a lot of money to you. And I know in different parts of the country, there's different deposit amounts and capes on often a double deposit. So people are really placing a lot of trust in the person who's handling the deposit. So at the moment, it needs to be placed into an interest-bearing account. Often the landlord has it or the if he's managing his own property or the agency. And that deposit needs to stay there. And it's not to be touched. It's not for rainy day money. And I know here, like you have plenty of horror stories where the landlord will just use the deposits, you know, for whatever they feel like it. And but it's not it's not for that. And at any point during the lease agreement, the tenant has the right to ask, say, I'd like to see how much interest I've earned. It's still there money until they move out. And if there's any damages. So ultimately, the deposit is there for security for the landlord, but it still belongs to the tenant. So when the tenant moves out, the onus is on the landlord now to make sure that they've done a proper inspection when the tenant moved in, that they've noted all of the damages, that they have a comprehensive report. And only if there's anything that's been maliciously damaged by the tenant, can they then take that money from the deposit. And I want to find out from the viewers at home, especially the landlords about how crude up are you when it comes to the law and what you can or cannot do as a landlord. Because I tend to find that a lot of DIY landlords in particular, you know, you get into property investment, you buy your first investment property, perhaps the second and the third and the fourth. And you've got a full time job, you know, or you're running your own business. That's not the property business. And property was the side investment that you were doing. That you thought, look, I'll actually self manage. I'm not going to get state agents to do it for me. And because this is not your core job, you may not necessarily be as up to date with what the law says you can or cannot do. So if you're a landlord at home, you know, how crude up are you about the law when it as it pertains to you as a landlord and what you can or cannot do when it comes to your relationship with your tenant. Now, Megan, I want to find out then what does the new amendment act, you know, what does it mean for the DIY landlords? Because I think in as much as they are not the biggest demographic, we're increasingly seeing more and more people, you know, being able to access investment properties and managing it themselves. Many watch the show and always finding, you know, trying to find different ways of maximizing their investment. And with some they've decided I'd rather not use an agency because of, you know, that percentage cut every month. I'll just do it myself. So what does the new amendment act effectively? You know, how does that, how would it affect the DIY landlords? The changes aren't actually that great. So, you know, I feel like the DIY landowners is in the position where they just need to make sure that they educate themselves as much as possible. And it's really easy for them to sort of get into, as you say, most of these things are often done through ignorance. It's not their core job. And so even if you can't justify in your cost structure, having a professional agency run your managed rental for you, I'd really encourage them to reach out and ask for help or advice or guidance. You know, it's a very small industry. Most people would be happy to give a land or a bit of advice on a difficult situation. So the tools are there. The act is very clear. It's not a difficult act to read or to understand. So I'd encourage them, if you're a DIY landlord, definitely download a copy of the act from the government websites and make notes, go through it, ask questions, phone a rental agency in your area that's got a lot of clients and see if they're just be willing to just go through it with your own clarify. But ultimately the changes that they need to be aware of are all quite simple changes. Make sure that you have all of your ducks in a row. Make sure you have a written agreement. Make sure that you keep your investment property that you're renting out in good condition. It needs to be habitable for somebody to live in. You can't cut off their services and do all of these kinds of things. So I think the biggest about half for a DIY landlord is just to make sure that they put themselves in the position of power when they understand what they should be doing and what they shouldn't be doing. We're on this evening taking your questions and comments as we look at what you need to know about the new Rental Housing Act and really getting a better understanding of what the amendments mean for both tenants and landlords. We've got Usparmi on Facebook saying, I've never heard a deposit earning interest. It's always you damage this 1,500 minus 1,000 for paint other repairs minus 500. I can already say as part that that's not the way it's supposed to be. Your deposit is put in an interest-bearing account. It doesn't necessarily have to be sort of maximum interest. So a landlord can choose whichever interest-bearing account they opt for. And even when it comes to the deductions in terms of damage, there's a way that we look at damage. So fairway and tear wouldn't be something that a tenant would pay for because it would be understood that that was going to happen regardless of which tenant would have occupied your particular property. And Megan, would you say you see that quite a lot? Because I see this a lot, especially with the DIY landlords. And sometimes even when they use an agency where the agency only procured the tenant and the landlord decides to manage the tenant. So the deposit gets handed over and the agency sort of done, they take their cut and come end of the lease agreement, these issues with the deposit. Yeah. I agree with you. There's such a misunderstanding about wear and tear and what's damage and what's wear and tear. The landlord can't expect the property to be perfect. If it was perfect when they gave the tenant, you've got to expect that there will be some use from somebody living there. And unfortunately, that means that it's going to switch the light switch on and off or use the blinds or turn the door handle. It might not be in perfect condition when the tenant moves out. I mean, that's a huge misunderstanding. I think that we see as an agency that neither the tenant or the landlord understand what that means. So you'll get into the position where the tenants agreed to paying for things which they really shouldn't and the landlords, not through anything other than not understanding what they can charge and can't charge for end up charging for more than they should be. And I've certainly seen those happening too many times. I can't think of an instance where a tenant would fairly pay for something like paint, especially after a year of staying in a place. I mean, you would have had to physically have done something to the wall that has damaged it to the point where new paint is needed. But sort of normal dirt on the wall when somebody lives there, the tenant isn't meant to pay for that. In the event where a landlord wants a new coat of paint for their new tenant, they're able to do that. But that's certainly something that would have to come from their own account. One of the other things, Megan, is around the defects being recorded. And I see this one even in the context of the of the deposits or at the end of the term. But we're still not seeing a lot of entry inspections for instance, and tenants moving into a place and within sometimes even a few days realizing what is wrong and they'll communicate it to a landlord often via phone. So it's also again not written. And because there was no inspection, by the time they move out, then they'll say, well, my landlord is now pinning all these damages on me. And yet when I moved in, I actually had them, I noted them and I was communicating it with them all along. How can tenants best deal with that in the interim? Because it is one of those contentious things that continue to happen. And more often than not, tenants don't know of an entry inspection and exit inspection during their, you know, during their leasing years. Yeah. So again, it's something that happens so often. And I wish there was an easy answer to this. Ultimately, a tenant needs to understand that the landlord should be doing an inspection within when they move into the property. So with the amendments, if there's no inspection done, then everyone assumes that the property is in good condition and that there's nothing that can be deducted from the tenant's deposit when they move out, because there's obviously no record of those damages in the first place. If I were a tenant at the moment, I would make sure if my landlord hasn't done an inspection with me, that when I move in, I do an inspection myself. I note everything down, in writing and email it to your landlord. So you've got that there. And vice versa, if you're a landlord, there's no negativity or no downside to not doing an inspection with your tenant. There's only positives for you. It's a very time consuming job, but it can be done quickly and it'll save you a lot of time in the long run, especially with the he said, she said back and forth when the tenant moves out. More of your questions and comments at home as we explore the amended rental housing act. And we've got the Bongsabakwa and one of our top fans commenting saying in the UK, the government runs the deposit scheme. So the landlord pays your deposit into the scheme. The money is only released when you and the landlord come to an agreement on what is to be paid to you and what is to be paid to the landlord. Your money is paid with interest. And that's a great way of, I guess, managing that. I don't know if I want government to be involved in that aspect. When we look at the South African context, I said we would want government holding any of the deposits to my properties. We've got the first time I'm seeing your name. Welcome to the show. And he asks, what else can one do to get rid of non paying tenants without having to go through eviction as it is usually a lengthy and costly process? So the short answer is there's nothing legally that you can do to make a tenant move if they're not paying without getting caught order eviction. This doesn't have to be a lengthy process and it doesn't have to be an extremely costly process either. And what goes a long way to helping is if you as a landlord or your rental agency make sure that they follow the correct process leading up to the eviction because that can really pave the way for a very smooth eviction. But things unfortunately need to be done the right way and leave a way. We often find if you've got a really good relationship with your tenant, especially now COVID has impacted so many people. And we've seen as an industry obviously a lot of challenges. But we've also seen a lot of people coming together and working out arrangements and payment arrangements. So obviously step one is to try and have a conversation with your tenants and come to some sort of understanding between the two of you. But in that same time frame you need to be making sure that you follow the correct process. Make sure you put your tenants in breach. Make sure that you follow everything to the letter of the law because then if it does come down to being evicted, you've got everything lined up and your attorney can actually just run with it in a lot smoother manner, which obviously will end up costing you less. And that's certainly something that one of the regular guests that we have in the show, Sunna Stain also emphasises that when you do everything to the letter of the law before it even gets to eviction stage, by the time things get there you find that judges are quicker to be able to grant that eviction order. Whereas if you get to court and magistrate finds out that actually you've tried, you've cut water supplies previously or tried all sorts of illegal stands, you're more likely not to have that eviction order granted, which only makes things go worse for you because the new tenants are going to stay in your property and you're still going to struggle to get essentially to get them off your property. A comment coming through from Ongatego Achape saying, a reputable agency wanted me to pay for paint after having occupied the property for five years. According to the person I spoke to at the agency, even if I had stayed 10 years, I'd have to pay for the paint, which is absurd, right Megan? I mean after five years would typically be when we do a new paint job, so five to even seven years even in our normal homes, we would typically do a paint job. So the fact that agencies and even landlords will say pulling a fast one on tenants and making home improvements and something that tenants suddenly have to pay for, I think is something that more and more tenants need to be empowered about in order to best address. The painting is something that comes up often and we see it every month. There's a big difference between if a tenant's damaged a wall and obviously then they're responsible for fixing it and we do see that regularly where people have drilled lots of holes in the wall and sort of taken chunks out the wall when they took the hook out. So there definitely are cases to be made for when painting is obviously the tenant's responsibility but it happens very regularly that as you say home improvements done on the tenant's account is the expectation and we even as agents get on to the wrong side of owners, we try and keep everything above board and then you're not going to make your landlord happy if you're not letting them renovate the property on the tenant's account. So maybe before I let you go any final tips for both the landlords and the tenants to just be aware of when it comes to the amendment act? I think on both sides and I know I've said this before and this evening definitely educating themselves is really the key and there's so much available to landlords and tenants and familiarize yourself with the act and get the contact details for the rental housing tribunal. They need to mediate these situations if there's something that doesn't make sense to the tenant or doesn't make sense to the landlord and you can't agree on it. So I think educating themselves about the changes and just making sure that they try and act and as fair a way to both parties as possible. That's a great place to leave it out this evening Megan. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks Emma. It was a pleasure. Thanks everyone. And that is Megan Legbrook who is the general manager at Only Realty Group wrapping up the Wednesday edition of the private property park cost with myself Osama Donwar Komalo. I'll be back on your screens tomorrow evening at 7pm until then hoping you're staying home and staying safe.