 Thank you Fiona, wonderful as ever and great to have the badges mentioned too. It's an initiative from AUX that's a great way of keeping track of all the things that you participate in. So I'm Theresa McKinnon, I'm the chair of the OpenEd special interest group, but really today's session has been instigated by Monica and Kat, so let's hear from them. Well, it's a collaboration Theresa, so I am the co-chair of the anti-racism and learning technology special interest group and Kat, would you like to introduce yourself? Good afternoon, my name is Kat Calle and I am from Cure University and I am the faculty learning technology officer. Thank you. So today we are aiming for an interactive session and we want to gather your thoughts, but Theresa would you like to just explain people a little bit if they're not sure about how to use the platform? Sure, yeah, so if you're not familiar with Blackpool Collaborate, I'm sure many of you are by now, there's just, you'll find the important things hidden away under the pink button at the bottom right of the screen, so if you want to join the chat you'll see the speech bubble there once you open that button, once you click on that button and slide the panel you can also see the attendees and message people and of course you can use your emoticons as well as we go through and give us some reaction. Okay, so I'm going to talk about a little bit about the anti-racism and learning technology special interest group, it's a huge name isn't it? We form as a community of practice back in 2020, middle of lockdown, I think personally I can say that it was a great way to connect with colleagues in such difficult situation we were in back in 2020, so Madlinger and myself initiated this and now it has become a special interest group, so we have three areas of activity, the first one is staff development and we discuss, do research and try to influence practices in terms of how anti-racism is embedded and how we can take accountability for our own development as well, I think that's very important in learning technology and to become more conscious and aware and develop ourselves as professionals. The second area of work is the content development special interest group and so at the moment they're creating a toolkit that you can audit your practice, how you develop material, so really exciting interesting things and the last area of activity, the third one is the research oriented research connected activities, so research in the area of anti-racism and anti-racist pedagogy, critical pedagogies, critical digital pedagogies as well, so if you are interested we have a series of blog posts you can find in the old blog and we have around four or five if I'm wrong and you can find out a little bit more about us. Now Theresa. Thank you Monica and the OpenEd SIG actually has been around since 2012 it predates my involvement and it was really sort of started as a support group for people using open educational resources but it's developed much further than that and really you'll find our mission and our mission statement and the information about what we do on the OpenEd SIG page here which I'm just going to pop in the chat for you and hopefully you came across or some of you at least will have come across today's webinar through our community space, so our mission essentially is to focus on supporting open practice and open as we know is complex and contextual, it's not about necessarily everybody sharing everything but it very much is about addressing some of the inequalities that we see in education and some of the bias whether it's conscious or unconscious that goes on in these spaces. We have a community space we also exist on Twitter there too so we're very very supportive of the aims of the racism SIG, relatively new SIG and also Fen Ed Tech and other networks within the OATS community that are striving to help address issues of bias and inequality in education. Right so our aim for today is to, we have three aims, the first one is to introduce intersectionality as a lens to approach learning technology and I think Therese and I had a few conversations about this. I myself am not a scholar on intersectionality, I like to find frameworks and rely on theory and evidence-based solutions to approach real-world challenges, so I think for myself I'm not a scholar in intersectionality or decolonizing as well but I am very enthusiastic about changing practice and being more open and inclusivity, so we're going to introduce this lens which I have explored and if I can study it with curiosity to be applied into a specific field which is learning technology, I think we all can do it. So our aim is just to introduce you, make you aware that this exists beyond decolonizing beyond racism and anti-racism is a good lens to approach real-world challenges in education and in learning technology. Our second aim, we have three questions from the many questions and issues we can encounter in our practice. We came up with three questions that seem to be the most intriguing at least from our point of view and so for both evidence-based there is a lot of research, a lot of interventions done and we're just going to cover very briefly a couple of them so you can get started maybe exploring in your own practice what what will work for you in your context and proposed a way forward. More than that is a final thought, I guess the main aim for us today is for you to consider intersectionality as a lens to explore the different areas of practice for you. Okay so like Trisa mentioned, the work they open in education and special interest group what they do is a lot about inclusion highlighting inequalities so if we are to dismantle the way things are power structures I don't think we don't think that we can approach it from one lens only, it's not only about racism or the patriarchy or gender I think is intersectional and decolonizing as a lot of marriage but it's very much focused on the historical aspect and it's good to kind of explore but it goes beyond because you have to consider every individual and their circumstances and their person and the different factors in that person and now Kat is going to tell you a little bit about intersectionality what it is and where it comes from. Thank you very much Monica. Intersectionality is according to Collins and Lodge 2010 it defines intersectionality as a way of understanding and analyzing the complexity in the world our human experiences and we understand that we've obviously got social inequalities and people's lives, this organization, power structures and what it is that we're looking at is it's just not shaped by just one single social axis so whether we're looking at race, gender, class, there are very many axes that work together and influence each other so intersectionality as an analytic tool gives people better access to the complexity of the world and of ourselves. Now sometimes I'll give from my perspective when I listen to that I think okay so how does that apply to me then just based on that definition so if we look at age, nationality, ethnicity, physical appearances, relationship status, seniority, whether in management, internal, external, organizational as you can see there's a lot to take in here so Kimberly Crenshaw actually is really good at defining this she essentially had coined intersectionality and so this is a framework that Thomas Attal in 2021 have actually been using as well so one of the things that I personally find in terms of the complexity is how then do we define intersectionality because there is that aspect of it from the the way we see things but then there's also how we feel things how we use our emotions, how our memory works, our networks, our families, our you know these it's a complexity so it's this that we're trying to then put it into then the context of racism and then how it is and then we can be able it plays its part so that's intersectionality sorry actually it's not about racism it's a lot of other things sorry I can guess I'm thinking about myself in this instance so if you just bear with me so yes um uh if you could just go to the next slide please sorry in both me I've got so many windows open at the moment um and I think I'll just recognize that I've been looking at you from another screen so here we go I'd like to try something new those of you who are able please stand up okay so I'm gonna name some names when you hear a name that you don't recognize you can't tell me anything about them I'd like you to take a seat and stay seated the lap so unless you have your cameras on I can't quite see the chance as well because there's several cut yes I don't I think I think people couldn't watch any of the video um that you play but if you go to YouTube or to TED Talks and you type Kimberly's name you can watch the full TED Talks it's like 17 minutes so maybe we can watch the whole thing that but it's very very interesting and she can explain you much better than any of us during the sectionality is and it's a very touching presentation I really enjoyed watching it so we recommend it and also I think one of the things that I probably would say as well is just simply touching on it as well just simply having a look at how she defines it and it's interesting that I think we'll all have different opinions about that so thank you for that link Teresa I'm not able to see I apologize I'm having multiple screens that I'm working with today I'm also having a look at the chat thank you for that video so okay I've shared the video link in the chat for those people who didn't see that the video coming through so you can open it on your own computers okay thank you thank you and we really we're really indebted to cats experience and lived experience in orders who understand better and that's really the importance of having so many of us together today because as Kat explained intersectionality is all about the many different experiences we bring to the picture I'm just going to share with you a link from some work that's been done by the Association for Learning Technology members and people who were interested in thinking about values in learning technology and some work that went on with the help of Sharon Flynn and others to mobilize the community and get us talking about what our values are which is an area that we've talked about a lot in the open education community for many years and led to the development of a framework now I'm also going to share with you because there's a tendency to think okay well that's a framework and that's sort of everything defined and done and finished it so isn't I'm just going to share with you another link to some slides that were put together in 2019 I think 2021 so a sort of report back so when Alts decided to look at ethics within learning technology they started with trying to mobilize the community and getting people to share their lived experience and to think about their values in learning technology and this framework for ethical learning technology is an ongoing work in progress so the slides I've just shown shared in the chat are a sort of one point in time en route to the web page that you can see on Alts ethical framework that's shared that was shared in the earlier link so essentially this is ongoing work this is about reflecting as as both Kat and Monica have pointed out reflecting on who we are on our lived experience on on how we operationalize our values and what really impressed me when I spoke with Monica was how she wanted to put the emphasis on operationalizing theory and theory for many of us isn't terribly easily accessible so that's really why we we are holding this webinar today because the only way we can really operationalize things is to actually even be aware of how we work and what we do and to listen to each other and to get different perspectives so we're going to be asking you to anonymously contribute some of your lived experience in order for us to broaden our overall picture of how this very complicated onion that was described so well by Kat plays out in in our life and in our work and to get a broader picture and that's that same process as was used in developing the framework for ethical learning technology the felt model that was shared with you there thanks Monica I'll share the link now to our jam board and I'm just I'm going to share this on the screen as well in case people haven't necessarily used a jam board before so I'll just put the link into the chat first so that you can open it on one of the 6000 tabs that no doubt you've already got open thank you I'll let you read question one perhaps first Monica and then I'll share my screen with the jam board okay thanks so we wanted to include three questions and I'm going to get a little bit philosophical here it's about belonging and I we keep seeing these more and more and what does belonging even mean that that was my first question when I I spoke to trees and cats um what does it mean and there are so many definitions it's a psychological construct and I think a lot of people feel that don't have a psychology background say but you can measure belonging and actually that's not true so we agreed on on a definition you can see it's a bit old from 1990 but it's very very very widely used so it's about acceptance respect inclusion and support in a in an educational environment so there's a lot of studies on belonging I personally like this definition a lot so my question the question we want to ask you and rather your thoughts is in your context in your experiences in whatever role you are learning technologies educational developer maybe you're in a management position or digital learning something um do you feel like students feel like they belong into the educational system and at the end we're going to present an example of one intervention which I found really interesting and very you can replicate it and very clearly some model that you can use to kind of embed this because I hear a lot of we are going to embed embed technologies to enhance belonging and I don't even know what that means so I'm curious about your thoughts and what you think belonging is and if the students the educational experience they get that make them feel in such way so Trisa has put a link in the chat and she's going to show now that's the first question in your experiences as a professional the students feel like they belong in the educational system and technological system so sometimes technology separates more than brings together make you feel included as well yes thank you for that that's hopefully you're seeing my screen now just showing the jam board and I just wanted to make sure that people know how to participate in the jam board because as we said there are going to be three questions that you can share your experience with us on and you don't have to be an expert on this we're really not looking for we're looking for your lived experience we're looking for what you have noticed and we're all at different points in this journey really of unpeeling an onion of complexity and thinking perhaps about how our experience may be and our concepts of things may be different from others so just to show you in order to contribute we use the little fourth icon down the little post it note choose which color post it note you want to use type into it and just press enter for it to appear on the screen and as they appear we can move those around to make sure everybody can read them and at the top of the screen you'll see there are three questions so you can navigate through this at your own speed and have a look at the other questions as you can see and Monica is going to talk you through the other questions in a moment so we're just going to leave this jam board open so you can move through at your own time and in that first question as Monica's explained we're thinking about belonging and probably a lot of us have had thoughts around belonging when we talk about the student experience but one of the things I think we tend to do is to make assumptions because for all of us making assumptions is a quicker way of making sense of the world so what have we found out and I'm really interested to see that during COVID that has made us perhaps question our assumptions about what students can do so it's really good to see these comments coming in and finding their way onto the jam board so thank you very much for that I'll stop sharing my screen now so you can see that's going on in the background and I'll come back to Monica's second question okay thank you and I think I'm sharing my screen now if I'm wrong yeah okay so second question and this is about culture and it's such a difficult concept as well how can we create a culture of inclusion and belonging and learning technology and this feels into every area it could be organizationally it could be in our own practice and then in turn it affects the students as well our daily interactions and with our colleagues and so like I mentioned at the beginning it's not as simple as saying we're going to tackle racism or we're going to just deal with this one area of disadvantaged groups or minoritized groups you have to approach it from that's why intersectionality is so great because it goes beyond the simplistic view it goes from the individual to the structural to the organization and that paper which we're citing in on the slides presents a really good solution it's called intersectionality walk and it's a series of active kind of experiences that you immerse yourself as another person anyway but before I take you into that we would like to hear your thoughts if you go to the board to the jump board and share in your own context with your insights with your own experiences how if you have witnessed attempts or it has worked for you also please do share because we're interested in what has worked or what you would like to see to create that culture of inclusion in learning technology okay and to me this is the most challenging question because it's about change and changing practice and we had a really good discussion when we were planning for the presentation personally attending academic theory oriented presentations don't have an impact on me as much as I would like and we talked about this because we said we're not scholars on intersectionality or decolonization or anti-racism or anti-racist pedagogy and so what really worked for us and what really worked for you I think at some level we have several models of CPT institutionally and also offers for example these very webinar but I'm curious about how do you enact that change because it seems to me that CPT is a lot about the accumulation of knowledge as opposed to taking action because it is a very tiring and expensive thing to do to actually implement some of these things around inclusion or anti-racism or intersectionality and change how you approach technology or learning design so here I just listed several models from training you know unconscious bias training anybody I personally think that they don't work or they work up to a very minimum level and two transformative models and the transformative model of CPT is a combination of all the models that you see in there so I'm curious how do you change practice what works for you me I have to put myself through a lot of reflection and failing implementing failing and pivoting and trying again and it is a lot about time and as opposed to just thinking a book so please share your thoughts what do you think how do we change practice how do we become more inclusive more conscious of that intersectional lens okay so that's great I'm just I'm just conscious that I'm typing in the background into my jamboard so I switch my mic off but I think it's really important that we give people now enough time just to navigate that okay the the things that are coming into the jamboard because there's some brilliant thoughts appearing and it's perhaps we just it's this is always really difficult to do in a webinar without sort of putting some background music on or something but we perhaps just give people a couple of minutes just quietly to to read and reflect as we mentioned time matters and often people don't get the time that they need to think deeply about things so maybe we'll have just a couple of minutes here with reading each other's comments and learning from each other's experience that's fine so can you please share that that screen of the jamboard yeah sure yeah I'll do that I just finished typing okay so I'm going to share my screen so that people can watch what's going on in the jamboard if they're not doing that already and come to yourselves while you think right so as we can see we've got lots of comments coming in and and I think as we were talking this through Monica and I we realized very quickly that this is not just about just just such a thing about racism it's about our broader biases as well to in some lots of aspects it's about that intersectionality the many differences contextually about worldview and our life experience and our values and having time to think about these yeah so belonging how can people feel they belong if actually they you know the tools that they're given to use as part of their training or part of their degree are irrelevant once they finish their degree so they kind of use it as you know an environment for a well had how can they support that sort of feeling of belonging and reflect how important their life experience is to us as practitioners and if I jump on to screen two you can see what lots of things coming coming through here about creating a culture of belonging yes digital poverty or as I like to call it poverty let that comment yeah these assumptions and I think we particularly saw it in the pandemic when the pandemic first came up was that there were assumptions that everybody would go home and of course everybody would go home to homes that had sufficient bandwidth and sufficient devices for everybody to continue working and you know those sort of assumptions were exposed for exactly what they are really just false just there was an awful lot of work that had to be done and thank goodness a lot of research published as a result of those experiences yes I think I like we need to stop thinking about students looking a certain way that students are 18 year olds from the same culture in background yeah absolutely we all do it it's a human thing we you know we categorize parents we talk about parents we talk about students we talk about staffs well in reality as Kat was showing us you know that's a huge not a modernist group that's a huge heterogeneous group so some some nice ideas and some thoughts there on creating a culture of belonging a lot of the work is just erasing awareness and sadly many of us who perhaps and I have not been so marginalized in our life not really given much thought in-depth thought to be how the lived experiences of others might be different from our own and changing practice we're already starting to get some suggestions here yeah please expand on things like you know we're trying to embed this across a university culture that's a lovely point so how how do we do that and universal design for learning is one of the things that you're pointing to there it's still not very widely understood and I think there are still challenges for us there Kat are you happy for me to come back out sorry Monica are you happy to come back out to the to the slides again we'll leave that jamboard open obviously because people need time yes yes of course and yeah I'm going back to share my screen so I'm going to share with you two interventions which I really like and personally I would like to experiment with them see if they work for my context and the way I see it and kind of a summary of what we have covered is they organizationally it's an experience and it's about us to change practice the way we do things so the first one is I think that's the biggest opportunity if you can enact change from the top in another organization and there is this intervention called intersectionality walk which is Thomas paper at all in 2022 if you check the page I believe it's open access so you will have access to it if you just go intersectionality walk it's enough it takes you through the steps deliver this experience in your workplace or with your team so it's an authentic and experiential so it's experiential learning and that you immerse yourself and you embody somebody else you become somebody else you you're given a description and you have to understand the challenges for example of that person on their first day of work or their first week at work how it is different from you if you don't you don't have a stability for example or you're not a person of color you will change into a different person I find it quite interesting um so it has been piloted I think it worked quite well anyway you can see in the paper but I personally liked it a lot for the second the student experience and belonging seems to be key and I saw someone write wrote about the student voice listen to the student voice so yeah students will say we we don't feel like we belong so I came across this intervention it's a belonging project and it has three layers it's about you have to consider when you want to embed belonging activities and you have to consider the transition of students especially for first year students at the university and undergraduates due to postgraduate or other issues I'm just focusing from that perspective the transition the interdisciplinary richness that they can encounter at the university and that often is not very well tapped into well that that has been my experience perhaps you could share if your institution has a better way to create that I hate using the term cross-pollination of ideas and people but I think it is very important for students to experience when once they get to university to go beyond their own discipline their subjects and finally notions of space and time so that means the learning spaces beyond the traditional classroom or the lecture room and I know we have universities in particular have done a lot of work around informal learning spaces and how learning happens in these spaces so these three areas seem to be key for embedding belonging so three things to consider especially when you if you're a learning designer and or digital learning designer you it's good to think about this this model and the paper was quite good and I can highly recommend I think three so you have a couple of interventions or strategies you added open guilds and then the changing practice I'm going to leave it to you is that okay yeah sure there the open guilds really is addresses the the idea of belonging and this was a discussion that we had at the open education saying that's on a webinar from some some time again now 2015 when we were thinking about how when we're looking at things that are complex and contextual and difficult to understand how useful it can be to do that with other people through through communities of practice which obviously is where the associate the the SIG the anti-racism SIG is coming from to help coalesce ideas and support each other so I thought I would add that in as an additional resource and in terms of changing practice the the links that I put there one is from the alt journal and well they're both from the alt journal but the second of those the embedding theory into practice with toolkits there's a lot of it you can see but there's a lot of the sort of thing that open education suffers from regularly which is when you get into the toolkits themselves they've gone offline because the project or whatever that created them is no longer funded and they've disappeared and this is something that the open community struggle with very often and so again it's kind of part of the landscape when we're talking about sharing information openly and it's really important I saw just on twitter today conversations going on from OE Global which is a global conference that's going on at the moment around the importance of actually establishing some sort of formal infrastructure for open publications so that things don't just disappear when the funding runs out because if we're going to have these sorts of discussions and we're going to yes thank you Sonya thank you for sharing that you know that there's an awful lot of wastage that happens a lot of intellectual academic and effort has been wasted because websites go down or funding runs out so it's really important that that matters to us and that we maintain our interest and that we don't slip backwards I think you know any of us reflecting on the situation particularly in the UK over the last 10 years or so we would say that we slipped backwards it's really important that we keep the pressure on to keep things moving forwards and make sure that we improve things particularly for those who are marginalised and struggling for access thank you okay so I think final thoughts I am applying this any change I would say will require a multilevel approach it starts with the self I always say inclusion is about being aware being self-aware and once individuals become aware of who they are and others then we can enact change so I guess the invitation is to consider three different layers from the organisational point of view from student experience point of view and from your own practice in learning technology and to consider these three different solutions or approaches so intersectionality can apply to any of them but I think the organisation has to be advocating for it first belonging in the student experience is key beyond decolonising or it or diversifying I think the the goal is belonging and for ourselves as practitioners it's about learning and changing and transforming our own practice and being just remaining curious okay so I guess we have time for questions or any final thoughts anything the audience would like to share or Theresa and Kat is there anything you would like to ask I'd like to say a really big thank you for people who've been using that Jamboard and sharing very openly that's I think that's really important that we've opened those conversations and as I say we're all at different points on this journey but you know we can start to have those thoughts so I'm really grateful Kat go ahead yeah thank you I think first importantly just to say thank you for coming today and I think that as Monica and Vol talks about is that moment of reflection there's been a lot that we have learned and it feels like a very confusing time I think I've almost felt confused maybe that's the thing the world is constantly changing what it is that we knew you know we innovate we disrupt we're here talking about it the things that we wanted we say it was great then we were like actually that was really no get rid of it then as soon as you've got rid of it you want it back so I think from from that sort of aspect of belonging probably the biggest learning point has been around just sticking time to actually sometimes points the finger back at yourself and I think that for me has been one of the things that that has not been easy where I have had to challenge some of my biases some of the things that I grew up thinking were from my lens until I spoke to somebody and often think was I curious enough about other people am I curious enough I'm actually if I'm honest I'm not feeling that brilliant today and you're like oh gosh about how many other people are not how are we feeling today you know this is what that sort of post-COVID defects and but also the same time I'm really thrilled that we're here so thank you I think thank you so much thank you so just wanted as always you know for me I'd really like it's what it is that you've talked about you know it's just unpacking when you said somebody said it's it's confusing so the web archives it's understanding a little bit more about what is it about that's confusing so it's that next bit of just reading the comments we need to have more conversations more conversations more conversations but we're really really grateful for being here as well so thank you I couldn't agree with you more cat I think it's so important and I think that the in the chat there was a conversation about the way back machine and sort of hanging on to things that we're seeing increasingly government at government level things disappearing because there are stories that people don't want told and it's very important that we you know grab hold of our agency in these things and make sure that it is not possible to to change the the management if you like of information exchange do you know when we talk about that actually this is actually I think an excellent point to ask sorry Monica who is the government and in which context do we mean oh yeah that's about this so it's so many questions and then in which context in which country because I've been to many places I speak very many languages by the way I speak I didn't realize this I've got so many languages going on in my head and I don't know how many people are so I can speak literally I can sometimes I think I'm like what's what's going on I've got so many dialects because I'm from Kenya and we speak okay as we can still apparently keep on talking more um anyway let me not even get we get get that whole conversation so who's the government and also we're from so many different places so Monica as well we met here we've met in different spaces I absolutely have a lot of love for Monica she's been such a wonderful person to deal with as well and um honestly I've got it's this and also Teresa has been so so so so helpful I love the way just listening to the way she articulates this all of that just just that honesty and and that that part of what old friends and how we want to do our best for everyone for our students for ourselves for so yeah so who's the government that's a big question Kat I think we're going to get to the bottom of that right here and now I think if we just look at the way the information has been shared in the west about the war in Ukraine and we look at how the the facts have been exploited we're increasingly having to deal with perhaps because we have so many media channels and you know so access to social media and the internet which is totally sort of changed our networks in you know in our understanding of the world but actually dealing with complexity is is a is a core skill for us all now it's you know it's something that you can't we can no longer just sort of assume that we will get quick solutions handed down we have to be able to look critically at the information that we have engage in in greater depth and as you say point the finger at ourselves I love that analogy that sort of thinking about okay well what about why have I assumed that we're not how am I coming at things and really really important and there's a question sorry Sonia she says how her question is how do we reach the people who won't come to sessions like this who don't even know there are problems that's the million dollar question is found sorry question isn't it oh exactly which currency yeah yeah it's kind of having things recorded is great but I think what we have to do is look at the micro level as well because each of us every single person in this session today we've all got a responsibility to question and to reflect and to share where we are in our particular journey of understanding our context and understanding what's going on in the world so I think it's sometimes too easy to kind of say oh well this is something that somebody else who knows a lot more than me is going to solve I think we have to do the best that we know we can do at any particular time and if our information source changes and our perspectives change then we change how we deal with things but we have to take ownership of our responsibility if that's okay I think that's also is you know it's interesting when you said as someone who quietly ignores the reminder emails about compulsory training like risk assessments for sitting at your desk probably not so we're facing this internally too with regards to EDI training we put them on but it's only the same old interested in brackets interested faces that come along not the folks who need to come can I give an example of that I'm one of those people it's just been time we've all you know when we think of what is somebody else doing they may be spending they may be on holiday now they've worked they may have so many like what are we all doing now I've got I don't know how many screens you know so I've often said as long as it's maybe for me I've got those questions as well and sometimes I think as long as it's you sometimes you're also doing this for yourself and then we're here contributing so then we go back and we're from so many different institutions and then we we we do that so EDI so that's actually a really good point about EDI is everyone's responsibility so it's then understanding what is our definitions of EDI because I I could sit down here and you know just looking at the names I'm reading I've had to learn a lot about literally just yesterday I was finding out information from someone who I knew very well that was 20 years ago I mean I speak to him nearly every day that's actually my brother-in-law and found out that they've just got some his specialism has actually is about viruses so he's top specialist and they've just found out some breaking news about monkey box so that's another thing that I like the way that acronyms you know EDI critical theory CPD all of these things that what what I have to I've had to sit there sometimes thinking am I can I put up my hand and actually ask or and especially another thing and I think it's also important to say this is actually what it is that you're so scared to ask I'll think somebody else is thinking that you might as well so I don't know if anybody else would like to add on to that I think you've really put your finger on it again cat it's you know if we if we don't feel safe enough to ask the question then clearly we've done something wrong we as in our our environment to the context that we're in in particular at any particular moment in time we need to feel safe to ask stupid questions like what's EDI I love that I often think and also so it's a so they'll say EDI and then other people put DNI and I'm like and then other times it's affinity and belonging and I remember being told once I'm using complicated English I'm like according to who it's the dictionary let's evolves it changes so yeah you know but Monica would you like to add anything to that as well no I think I don't think people don't show up to this kind of training intentionally I think the threat of equality feels like oppression to them because because they're so used to a way of being in the status quo so I think that is this year of not now it might turn because I have benefited I have privileged and but those are my thoughts but nobody's trying to oppress anybody I think you have to I recommend the pedagogy of the oppressed if you can read it where the oppressed becomes the oppressor I don't think nobody's doing trying to do that and to me is very important to make that clear nobody's taking punishment or anything like that it's just about equity and equality which is fair I believe okay we have from here and it's definitely about being kind you know we really don't want to be other in people we want to be open and inclusive and each of us as an individual can deliver that by having real personal close relationships with each other I think people feel judged yeah that's the book cat thank you and I think probably you have to incentivize people you have to invest you have to make do that investment incentivize people one way with resources to attend really meaningful training that has impact and you have to be thoughtful about it for your context so it requires a person normally ahead of ADI I would say or somebody in similar role who has that vision of where things should go in the next years and universities or colleges should invest in such person and incentivize people to attend such training because it won't come out of them as a choice but those are my thoughts and we have four minutes left I don't know if anybody would like to we can have this conversation forever but any final thoughts before we say goodbye and say thank you and I'll quickly remind people that they're going to get at the incentive of an open badge for having participated today and we're very grateful and I think it's really important that alks does recognize those people who take time out of their day to get engaged in in cd sessions so please display your badge proudly as an alt participant maybe then somebody will ask how did you get that what did you do yeah not true okay well I think Kat is there anything you would like to speaking about how it is that we all share knowledge I worked with my colleague who would keep saying like oh you need to attend alts and it was actually more about the person it wasn't often about the events so they mentioned so they went down and like oh marin is so lovely okay and it's like oh and we met so and so it's actually what comes back when we all go back to our various places and how it is that we feel about this whether if sometimes you actually really resent something is that reflection of why you know and then when you love it so just the fact that you're here today bonus points get your badge your stars thank you okay well thanks everyone it was a pleasure to be here with you today and final for our respective special interest group and we look forward to seeing you sometime in one of our meetings