 Go ahead and start. Yeah. Are you all set? We're all set. Everybody ready? Welcome to the Monday, November 19th meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let members and staff introduce themselves. Hannah Smith. Meredith Crandall. Staff. Stephen Everett. Eric Gilbertson. Seth. Thank you. For anybody who's not been here before, we are advisory to the Development Review Board. We will review the applications and move them forward. Do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? All in favor of the agenda, ladies and gentlemen, unanimous. And unless anybody has any other comments, we'll go straight to the first application for 7985 Berry Street on a rib-a-lini and applicant Whitbellic Pizza. Come up to the table and describe your project. Yes. Go ahead and have a seat. So we have submitted an application to develop like an outdoor eatery outside of our commercial kitchen on 87 Berry Street. It would be, what would you call it, seasonally permanent so we would install the outdoor eatery maybe in March or April, whether permitting and then dismantle it in November. There would be minimal seating. There would be a platform attached to a wood-fired oven, which is on a trailer. Moveable. The platform would be in four-by-four sections, bracketed together. Sorry, actually, so I submitted an application to Audran. You don't have it with me, so I'm feeling a little bit weird. No? Thank you. So just verbally, like, running through the... So you see where it is. It has to occur. Yeah, we have our commercial kitchen. It would be in the parking lot right outside of our commercial kitchen where we already operate. We're a catering company, so we are already using that parking lot for our wood-fired ovens on trailers. We've been operating a pizza Friday this season, so we've already had on-site sales on the spot. What we're proposing is more of an aesthetic enhancing and an extension of the outside. Is this the same trailer that we move around to the other sites, the farmers market, et cetera? Yeah. So you would just back this in for certain days during the week? Our plan would be to allocate that oven for the on-site sales for the season, so we would back it in in the spring, but it would stay there until then. We'll build another trailer for your other... We hope so. Yeah, it's the plan. We hope so. It does not...we're not the way I understand it, or the way I'm proposing it. We wouldn't be permanently changing anything in question, you know. So it would all be movable. There was one concern about how close we were to the property line of the Southern property line, but after speaking to Audra and also speaking to our landlord, Steve Rabilini, we feel that we've...we're getting close, but we think that it will be appropriate. We have not been able to be in touch with the railroad company. Oh, you're very nice. Yeah, infamously so, right? Yeah. How about the Jason Seaman parking? In terms of the parking spot right next to the oven. In terms of ashes or embers, that wouldn't be a concern. Right next to it, any time we're operating. If someone ran into it. Yeah, I mean, I've thought about a few abilities, but I think we're already really active in those spaces, so our other tenants in the building that also use that parking lot are pretty cooperative about the spot. Yeah, it'll just be a couple feet. We will be occupying what is effectively now a parking space, but it'll be permanent. It won't be moving, so I feel like people will be pretty aware of it. How wide is your trail for the alignment? That's such a good question. How wide is the little oven? It looks about... Yeah, I don't think it's wide. So how can spaces usually be about 18 and 7? It'll be just about the one side, but probably a little better. Yeah. Can you actually touch the oven? You can, yeah. The gray one's the... It's cotton that actually has like a layer of its air and then metal for the tips. I was just thinking if you could move it over as far as you can away from the parking space, so that way if somebody pulls up the pickup truck or something and then swings the door open, it's not going to get there. Yeah, that's definitely a good concern. The side of the element is basically the basic parking space. Right, yeah. So the oven is backed into the opening where we'll be cooking is we're going to raise the oven up a bit so someone will actually be cooking, but standing on the trail will basically be the pop-out kitchen. How about looking up or saving up the oven from industrial traffic? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're planning on using planter boxes and small basically like port concrete that we're going to be running chain to designate the seating area during service hours. So it would be a very natural thing to extend that to like the outer perimeter of the oven. I think that idea is that they can keep people going in and out of the parking space on that side from getting too close or running until we have a trailer extension that is you don't want anybody sort of bumping into that. It's a natural walkway. A lot of like professional folks working and other people are going to be able to walk through that space. So we've been or we're interested or committed to leaving a walk like open walkway. So it would be helpful to close it off so people don't kind of try and tuck around. Are you planning on having any like a pop-up tent or canopy or anything over it? Right now we're using entirely mobile 10 by 10 pop-up tents. I would like to have a like a roller canopy like you would see on an RV that can roll up when we're not in service, but that would be from the movable 16 foot long trailer that is effectively the kitchen and it would be off of that structure rolling over a serving platform. That would be the only thing that would happen. So the platform is going to actually sit in addition to the alcohol? I imagine it being a serving platform with a bar and like a couple seats so when we're not super busy or if someone wants to just sit and eat a slice of pizza and then we'll have a ramp and steps coming down to like three or four wrought iron relatively small round tables with a couple chairs on them. It's mostly for ambiance, but definitely people do like to sit. So we're actually dealing with a pretty unlevel area in that part of the parking lot. We talked to Steve about it and it's complicated. There's a drain pipe there and it's kind of important for the drainage of the entire parking lot. So we're proposing to actually, it seems like the least invasive to the structure of the parking lot and the easiest to go around but to drill rebar down into the parking lot and maybe 12 different spots or six different spots and then a wooden platform. So in the lower area where the drain is the platform will be almost two feet up but closer towards the trailer kitchen will actually be a two by six set onto the parking lot. I think hopefully it'll be easier for some folks. So a part of the proposal or the application is that we would have a light installed on the side of the building. Am I correct here? I might have separately applied but I'm sorry. Okay, that's separate. So there is lighting described as the hanging lights. Yeah, sorry. I just realized that it's a separate application that we were talking about for the light on the side of the building. For this aspect, yeah, hanging lights, low wattage LED. I think 40 watt bulbs is what we would use, plastic bulbs so to minimize risk breaking glass. Easy to take down and move around if we needed to but to be up, yeah. From the window of the building basically running out to the kitchen like the structure of them but just hanging LED lights will probably be using the same hanging lights inside the kitchen for the workers. Were you showing your planter boxes and supports for some kind of drill thing where you could actually make those poles taller so that you could have a few of them tall enough that you could string your lights around so that whether you have the canopy open or closed, you would have some lighting there. Nice, yeah. It's going to have to set the lights up every week, can you? Yeah, totally. Yeah, we're in pop-up mode so that's a great suggestion. Do you have any other comments, questions, suggestions? So you're anticipating a season probably from May through October? Something like that? Yeah. Obviously depending on the weather. Weather committee, yeah, yeah, it feels weather committee. We'd like, sorry, I'm having a hard time with being off. What did we apply for a season? Maybe it accounts to be like a permanent, even though it's seasonal really, I think it's considered permanent, right? Yeah, we don't really have a temporary, yeah. Permanent, you can put a time limit on it. Yeah, we'll put it up as early as we can and move it up as long as we can. Again, any other questions from anyone? Okay, I'll go down through the criteria. I would really see if we can get over the sound. Crossing from the cover's way to the tracks to get to your place. They're just difficult to deal with so you need time to do it. Yeah, the workers crossing? Or you mean people crossing? Just people crossing to get to your place. You gotta watch out for those high speed trains. Have you just been having a hard time figuring out who to reach? Yeah, you want to come up here, we can hear you. We have contacted the rail road and they say that the property line is only disclosed on a regional basis and we don't have that. Have you contacted Tom McCartle and Department of Public Works to see if we can help you out and act as a go-between? I know that our fellow worker owner, David Huck, was in communication with him and I was not in direct communication with him. And at some point, some months ago, it just looked like it kind of a standstill and you're talking to Audra, you just kind of pushed everything as far away from the train tracks as we could. And we've also just been, yeah, it feels like evaporating in kind of a common sense and not so much as any clear agreement with them. Again, that's not so much a design element, but it's important to create something that's going to cause a problem for you. Yeah, if they felt like we were encouraging folks to walk across the tracks. Okay, anything else? I'll go down through the criteria. Number one, preservation and reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of proposed projects in the historic district involves a historic structure. I would say this is not applying this location or this application. Harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping, non-proposed with this application. I mean other than the, not really a box, a planar box is something that would be acceptable. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes, or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, acceptable. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant buses including the use of the city and state house, acceptable. All in favor of the application. Have you signed that on the lower left of my name? Is this administrative approval? It's administrative. Yep. In fact, it's back to us. Thank you for your patience with me. Good luck on your project. Thank you. Thank you. Next application for 16 Main Street applicant, Curtis Ashline for Irving Energy Light Park LLC. You're Curtis? I am. Have a seat at this grab beer application. And I'm in the same boat when she was in after I submitted everything to Audra. My folder's a lot more empty. It's got stuff in there, just not as much. Yep. Thank you. You're welcome. So basically I'm a sub-per and I put tanks in the ground for them. And what we're trying to do over here is we're going to try to add a third block ground. Basically the buildings that it feeds right now, the two that are currently there, if you don't have a propane truck hooked to it, you're running out constantly between the usages for heat and for, I might not say anything, but there's a pizza place in that building that brings a lot of propane. They're propane, so you got this. But yeah, so basically it just wasn't, by the time they added on and added on and added on, more heat and more this and more that to the building, it just wasn't sufficient. So what we're trying to do is put a third tank in. As you see, there's an engineered design by DeWolf. There are engineers for tank placement. We know how to strap the tanks for safety purposes, for flooding and whatnot. We will run the vents above flood level. So in case there was ever an issue, the venting wouldn't be a problem. We know legal strapping. Everything's going to be to code. The fire chief gave approval. He said he has no problems with a third tank in there. We're going to do new Jersey barriers in front of them. Not the prettiest thing, but safety for cars and people obviously is very important. And Overlake has no problems with it. It's their property in there. They're for it. Does existing tanks have Jersey barriers? There's like blocks and stuff in front of them now, because Irving took over the property. So they had what they had. We're going to bring in a couple of fresh Jersey barriers and make it look as good as you can for Jersey barriers, not run down broken looking blocks. Just to clarify, do we start with a new tank or a five-all tank? Yes, everything. Yeah, we'll start from this here and then we'll go right from the new ones. To clarify what you mentioned about the venting. Okay, so there's a vent on the regulator. And basically, because there's a flood area, we're going to make sure that the vent is above the highest known flood area. And then that way, if there's ever a flood, then the regulator will be leaking propane. Because if you, you know, you fill them with water, they can act up and not work correctly. So if you send it way up there, then it just keeps it safe. So what is that? What is that actually? That's cute. I think they got Unistart over there with clamps. And then basically it would be like a three-quarter inch CPVC sticking out. It's kind of like a snorkel, only it's, you know, this big instead of something that would run your off-road PN, you know what I mean. We're going to hope the water doesn't get to that high. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My player has his water issues, but we're just staying ahead of everything that we possibly know. Steve's got it really well anchored on it. We're carrying Irene, some of the four tank tanks will float you down the river if you can. Yeah, they're bobberous. Oh, yeah. It was, yeah. Yeah, it was some good. My buddy was down in Florida for one of the, what, the hurricanes and they sent a link saying that, you know, our hurricane now has sharks. So not only are you up in the air in a nice tornado, but there's a shark right there. I'm like, yeah, that looks like fun. So yeah, back to your propane tanks floating around. Yeah, no, no, everything's anchored. Everything's, you know, designed by the engineer. And what we're doing, because right now there's an existing slab. And what the engineer approved was we're going to bring in some big blocks and basically dig them to grade and set them and anchor them together and then come to the tank. Because you and I both know pouring concrete over the water is a lot of fun and being cost effective. It's easier to dig a little bit, set some blocks where everything's flush and everything's the same grade. You know, basically we're over on our weight ballast, which I think in this area is like a 1.5 factor. And again, the engineer, you know, approved the design. So we'll make a big mess. We'll put in one more tank and hopefully make a happy customer. I mean, that's what we're shooting for. And we're doing it safely and legally. You know, everything's to stay in local code and... Do you please traffic back there? No, no, we're just, I mean, we're out of the way. Yeah, and there's no need to increase in traffic in that area. That's just busy. You try to go to the hardware store or anywhere. Any other comments, questions? Again, I'll run down through the criteria for this one. Preservation reconstruction of the appropriate historic style, not applicable. Army of exterior design, acceptable compatibility of proposed materials, acceptable. No landscaping proposed. Prevention of use of incompatible design buildings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, acceptable. Recognition of and respect for view quarters, probably not applicable at this location. All in favor of the application? If you can't get you to sign this one on the lower left and above my name here. Perfect. Again, this is another administrative approval. Everything tonight is administrative approval. Good. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. We're good. Thank you very much. Thank you guys for your time. Okay. Thank you. Next application is for 89 Main Street, winner Doug Netty, applicant Vermont League of Cities and Towns. Hi, I'm Jessica Hill. Hi. How are you? Good. Good. Describe your project. My project is a sign, a new sign to replace the existing sign at city center for the league of cities and towns. We've been in that space since 1997 and the sign is starting to show a lot of wear and fade and whatnot. So we've been working on a new, some new branding and a new logo design since our renovation at city center four years ago and we're just not getting there. So we just need to replace the sign to make it nice, new and hopefully all more safe. I'm sure it's fine. But in any case, so we hope it's just a simple replacement. It is not the same exact color. There's a minty green background. Right. This is correct. I'm sorry. The existing sign is sort of a minty green. This is what we're proposing just to be clean and crisp and to show the name. So this is sort of like an off-white background? I think so. I think it's actually just white. Just white. Yeah. Just white. I'm sorry. It was greenling. But comparison from the existing, it's sort of a green with a cream color words, but it's not very recognizable. It doesn't really pop. So as you know, there are a number of businesses at city center. So we just like to spruce it up. Same size? Yeah. The existing? Yes. And same location. What's the material of the sign? I don't know off the top of my head. Yes. You can pause it. Yeah. I did actually make a copy of my application, but I didn't bring it with me. Oh, I apologize. No, that's okay. I think it's okay. Okay. I don't have any questions. I believe so. Yeah. Because there's that siding there. I believe so though. I know another sign just got replaced and it's not the same size as the sign that was there. And it looked like it must have been really flush to the building because the behind is very faded. So we would just hope to take the same footprint. It's a really good idea to mount it just, you know, half an inch off the building just to allow air behind it. So, you know, get a lot of deterioration of the sign back. Absolutely. For sure that is a sign. You know, half inch actually keeps the bats up behind it. Any other comments, questions? Okay. We'll go through the sign criteria for this one. Preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style. This is acceptable for this location. Harmony of exterior design, whether the properties of the district acceptable. Compatibility proposed exterior materials acceptable. Compatibility proposed landscaping not proposed. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities. No change in lighting or anything. There's no lighting there for us now. So not applicable. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant visitors including gateway views of the city and state house acceptable. Conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations acceptable. Compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties acceptable. Shell not a pure significant architectural details acceptable. Consistency and uniformity of multiple signs in CD2 and OV districts not applicable here. Illumination not applicable. Penance and banners not applicable. Individual letters of fixed painted or grayed directly on the building or structure are encouraged. The sign in the sign band is acceptable here. All in favor of the application. Sign above. Okay. Thank you very much. The next application is for the same building. Applicant Jeremy Marrier. Can I pronounce that correctly? I'm actually not Jeremy. My name is Ramiz. I'm going to be contractor Jeremy could make. So if I can spell your name for us. R-A-M-I-Z-B-I-K-I-Z. Okay. And you're installing three new windows. Describe the windows. It's going to be approximately I think 32 inches by 60 wood windows. This is already on that side one window existing. So you're just going to match everything same. It's not going to change anything. I'm sorry. Are the windows here or in? They're not there. No, they're not there. It's new windows for a new office. Okay. We have one window in the corner down. So the windows above are they integrity as well? Are they integrity? They're double home, right? Yes, they're double home. What brand window are they? I'm not sure. I think they might be about there. Up top window there is my building. Are they metal or fiberglass? I think the top one is aluminum outside. Why would you go there? Because the bottom one. So it has one? Yes, it's a wood. It's wood? Yes. All wood? Yes. How far have they matched? They're going to match exact same. We already have Alan Lambert, the guy come and look. Bobby Wilson. Bobby Wilson, yes. He looks and he tells that he can match everything same. This is Brick Paneer, right? Yes. What's on the other side? Inside the building is Shearer. Still framing and Shearer. And what's occupying that space? Right now it's not occupied. Doug and I have tried to put more windows because they don't have a window. So it's hard to run. So you want the windows in challenge that way. So there's no particular tenant waiting to go in there? You said that windows, if you're looking at the building and believe it's right in here, this is in front of the building. Yes. And this is D.P. State Street. And it's not on the back of the building but it's on this. No, it's in between that and Shearer. Right in here. It's that out of the way. Yes. Is it patient or that's... No, it's not patient. It's the salvage broken over there to the back end. Yeah. The head arm over there. Actually that brick is holding nothing. It's just halfway to the building. You can see that line. This is how the bar brick go. And it's not going to hold nothing. Right. But you're going to put a little... Yes. The ground color will match. And again, all of the colors. What all tracks are the bronze? The dark bronze color. Which would match the existing ones. Any other comments, questions? Okay, I'll go through the criteria. Preservation of reconstruction of the proposed... of the appropriate historic style proposed projects in the historic district involves an historic structure. Acceptable harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district. Acceptable compatibility, ability of proposed exterior materials with other properties. Acceptable compatibility of proposed landscaping and proposed in this application. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes, or exterior materials. Acceptable location and appearance of all utilities. No change in utilities. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including a way for use of the city and state house. The building is in a gateway but even though this corner is not really too visible but I will say it is acceptable because of the building's location itself. All in favor of the application raise your hand. I think this was originally they were discussing having just two windows added and then they added three. So that's why this is slightly off. We're aware of that for the permit. So another window added to the left? That's my take on it. Because you've got the existing and it says existing on here. So there will be three evenly spaced between the where you can see the pipes and then the... It just shows some of this drawing here. You're adding three evenly spaced to match the even though it doesn't show all the existing elevation. Yeah, we're aware of that. If you could assign this one above my name here. Okay, thank you. Thank you. The next application is for 180 Main Street. Catherine Cortes. How do you pronounce that? Cody. Cody. Okay. And you're obviously not Catherine. I'm not Catherine. I'm Stephen. I'm Stephen. Yes. For the P or V? A pH. Yeah. And your last name? Cody's. Okay. That's my way. Okay. Describe your garden shed. It's a garden shed that was pre-fabricated and it was actually a wedding present and it was dropped off. And so it is existing there on the property right now and I can show you a photo of it. It's an 8x8 garden shed. It's all wood. And you have the photo there? Okay. We have a photo on the lot. I don't have a photo of it on the lot. So it's, yeah, it's set back toward the back of the property relative to North Street. Or sorry, relative to Main Street. So as you drive by on either side, it's not, it's not entirely visible. You can see the peak that you've got to buy. Is that 8x3 form? Yep. Or an accessory shed. That's fine. Any comments, questions, suggestions about the garden shed? Have you spoken to the neighbor about it? We've spoken to the tenants that are there, but it's rented out. On the Main Street side? Or the North Street side? On the Main Street side. Is it screened from them by the, it shows some trees there? There are trees there and it's sort of partially screened on that side. It is visible from their house but it's a, there's a slope upward there. And so they, it doesn't, it doesn't block their, the view of their window. Still see out and see table light. Probably not terribly tall. Probably 8 or 9 feet high. Yeah, yeah, it's excellent. Okay. Again, go through the criteria. Preservation of reconstruction and the appropriate historic style. It is in the historic district even though it's not an historic structure. We can just say it's acceptable. Harmony of exterior design, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials, acceptable. Compatibility of proposed landscaping, not a change in the landscaping of this application. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, colors, schemes or exterior materials, acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, no lighting? No, there's no lighting. Okay, not applicable. Application of and respect for view quarters, not applicable here. All in favor of the application? Raise your hand. What is the outside material? It's wood. It's wood. Yeah. It's like tea, whatever. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. No. Just leave it there. Okay. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you. Next application, 149 Main Street, the Gary Home. Backup generator in the 500 gallon below grace program. My name's Chuck Weeks, M-E-V-K-S. And I'm a maintenance supervisor for Owen Fisher Home. And the project involves replacing the existing generator. And the existing generators in the garage. And the state, new state regulations don't allow it in the garage. So we need to move it outside. And it's going to be on a slab. And it's going to be elevated above the flood zone. And we need to increase the runtime of it. So we need to put in a larger propane tank. And a 500 gallon tank has been recommended. And that'll be buried adjacent to the generator behind the garage. Is the generator going in that corner there? Yeah. Just it's going to be a couple feet out from the building. Right. And the tank that's there, it's going to be. That's going to be removed. It'll be gone. And maybe it won't be buried. Yeah. The tank will be gone. Because there is an existing generator there, correct? No. It's inside the garage. But it's inside. Yeah. So this one on that tank will be gone. Right. And here we'll go in the corner forward. Yeah. Near that tank, but behind the garage. Yeah. We'll tuck it in. I'm sorry, behind the garage, back here? That's the side. On the side. The tank's on the back. Yes. Okay. And I guess you could say the generator will be to the right of where that tank is. Yes. Okay. So how high will the generator be off the ground at that second? It's going to be about three and a half feet to the bottom of the generator. Above grade. Yeah. Three foot six. The generator's about, I think, four feet tall. Yeah. Close to seven feet to the top of it. Yes. What color is it? It's a powder coat light brown tan color. Okay. It's not like the caterpillar. Right. It's like the right yellow that you can see from a half a mile away. It's kind of our earth tone. Yes. You can call it. Actually, that'll blend in with the brick better than... And bright orange. It's not going in front of the window though. Yeah, it'll be beside the window. Yep. You're not posing at this screen. That is bad. No. No. Looks like there's some vegetation there. It'll probably disappear between the existing vegetation in the building anyway. At least from this view. There's lilac trees behind the garage now. I didn't cut them all down. Are you going to put concrete down? Is that what I just did? Yeah. It'll be on a slab. So that's not there now. Right. That slab is not there now. No. Just out of curiosity. It doesn't have anything to do with the design. What's the kilowatt? Thirty. Thirty. I'm going to be over 24 hours. I don't know. I would say probably 48. There he is. It's going to go more than two days. This is for critical power? Yeah, this is for residential care. Yeah. So it's important you have a running backup generator at the time. It's important not to test it. It's going to cycle once a week for about 20 minutes. It's just it exercises on that schedule. That's the decibel. I think it's like 60. I got the specs in here. It's got a... The cabinet this one's coming with is low noise. It's right here. On a weekly exercise it's 54 dB. It's the same level as a fish washer in your house. That's pretty quiet. I don't have an LG. I'm amazed how quiet it is. It was a diesel generator that made it in Iraq. I think full load it says 61. I know somebody who's got a... It's not nearly a 30 kilowatt but he has a 10 kilowatt. He has a 1,000 gallon tank and it ran for two years. Again, but it's more of a resident. It's not something of the size. But with LED lighting and efficient appliances. They have batteries. So they automatically start when needed. And the only reason they run is to get the batteries charged. You think you can give the actual exercise? Comments, questions, suggestions on the generator. We'll go back through the same criteria again. Preservation, reconstruction of the appropriate historic style. I'll say it probably doesn't apply here. Harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district. Acceptable compatibility of proposed exterior materials. Acceptable compatibility of proposed landscaping and proposed prevention of the use of incompatible designs. Billings, colors, schemes, or exterior materials. Acceptable location of appearance of all utilities. Acceptable recognition of and restrict view quarters. The back of the building is probably not a view quarter. So I'll call that an important one. All in favor of the application for the generator to sign up. Thank you very much. Thank you. Good luck with the project. And we have minutes. We actually have time to go talk to them. Nice. Really nice. And how about for October the 1st? I'm sorry. 20 to 15. These are the proposed standing signs? No, these were light banners. And I think maybe no, I think, no, I think it's two feet. That's a typo. Thank you. I will. Yep. No, no, no. Two feet by one and a half. I think it's two feet by one and a half feet. And I didn't catch the typo. I was going to say on a downtown light pole, the 20 by 15 would be pretty. Yeah. Thank you, Hannah. Pretty visible. Cut out a lot of fuchsia. I'm not sure how I missed that one in the proofing, but you can really prove it with that change if you're happy with everything else and then we'll make a change with where they're posted. So other than adjusting the size of the banner or is there anything else? You're apportioned to approve the October 1st sentence. Did you read that? Do I hear a second? I'll second. All in favor of approving it with a change to the banner size? I wasn't there. So that's approved? Yep. Correct. Forza. And how about October the 15th? No. Are except? No. We don't have enough people, so we'll have to table that one. No, we've done it for the 30th. Oh, Seth. So just the 15th is table. Just the 15th is table. The other is approved. Great. You can keep your copy. Yep. You can keep your copy. Otherwise my stacks may be confusing. Okay. So the 30th we can put it on. And how about any change needed on the 30th? Yeah, it was. And that's something that's been discussed and dealt with at the DOB level, but I think it makes sense to put that comment in here too. That's data. That's same area. Oh, okay. That says their copy of the data is what we have to represent. We made a statement of what we wanted to do. That was a jazz data. That was software. Yep. I'll elaborate a little. I think the button is all right. It's appreciated. I don't have to deal with that. Wow. And if there's an appeal, I have to hand it for my record. I have to do it. You weren't ready to complain. Yeah. Any other comments or changes needed? Probably. Yeah, I'm not sure if he actually brought that up. It seems as though it's basically ties in. Yeah. And it's just, I don't think we, if he didn't actually say that there, I don't think we need to put that in because this is supposed to be more of a, a little bit more of a running thing. Where's the, this comments from here, anything here that's cool. We have to pull together the reasoning. I'll do them. We'll do them a decision. I'd have to see the video. Yeah, it's the same here. I'd have to go back to the video again. And I don't, I compare these to my notes. I don't have time to go back and watch. Yeah, I've been here, I've been here. Several people mentioned that balloons have been blown, but they, they were constant references to the light poles and they know the height of the light poles and their perspective. They can use that perspective and the light poles as a guide to how high the government is going to be and maybe what it might obstruct or not obstruct. I think most of the views are obstructed by the existing hotel. Mm-hmm. Because that's six stories tall. And even if you're standing on the Shaw's lap and you're looking at the poles, the existing hotel is higher than the poles, so. Well, and that's, you know, in these same people brought these same arguments to the DRB about the view shed because they can re-argue that stuff. So, we've got a lot to do the record about. On the stairwells? Who did the stairwells? Mm-hmm. I mentioned that the spreader system is a dry system. Yep, and I... I'm not sure he did that in this exact exchange. He's done that in others. He did that. And I brought that up. You can tell the difference when you look at it. Right. But she was intimately that it needed to be heated and it's a dry system. Well, and this is dealt with... It's a heated utility room. Yeah, and that's where the treatment... Which is where the drive valve is, but the rest of the system is needed to be heated outside. That was hashed out at the DRB level as well. I had that input from the fire chief to be like, we have to have one little closet that has heat in it so we can put the drive valve in there to control everything else. So your main shut off drive valve controls and everything are in that room and the rest of it's just empty piping that goes through the rest of the storage. So that's where they'll also have the computer software for the parking system in that one closet, like server closet. Anything else that needs to be commented on or changed to a air of motion to approve the October 30th? Sorry, I didn't mean to fix this. I'm sorry. No, just this is saying Sue Allen, but that wasn't Sue Allen. This is Lucy Rose. Anyway, I thought I could fix this type of... Okay. So that wasn't... Can we change the unit? Yep, that's it. I'll move it for your second. All in favor. Boats to approve. And now we're at the November 5th. I'm going to take a look at you. When it came to the DRB about the signs, maybe the wayfinding, and that's not at all what I said. Yeah. But yeah, they've got... They've got draft conditions to look at tonight and go over, but they should have been looking at for the last several weeks that elaborates. Some good, because, you know, some can't just be a scientist and some kind of a well-doing architect or something, that can only wait for a parking lot of signs. Pretty well-finding ways. People love a beach down there. On a teeny, tiny bit of waterfront property versus the Consulate's Park with the transit center. I like the idea of serving beer on the deck. So that would be pretty cool. Pop-up beer garden. With the deck of the parking garage on the top floor. Yeah. Close it off for a special event. That's what they should do. Fourth of July fireworks. Fourth of July fireworks. Beer garden on the top floor of the parking garage. Awesome. Palm trees. We do have a thought was not completed halfway down. I think that's supposed to be clear walkways other than signage and then long-gash artwork landscape and clear walkways were, like, additional thoughts other than signage. So let's clean that up. I know the changes this time aren't those. I didn't catch everything. The first thing to do on my calendar. Yeah. So any other changes for the November lift? That's good. Motion to approve. Second. Lever. Make sure you have it. So the only thing we have left is the one. October 15th. The one for the 15th that then needs to be there for. So if you can pull out the ones for the 15th. Well, we can just pull out everything. I'll take everything back with me. Under the other bill, Steve, I'd like to talk a little bit about where we are with the draft. Okay. We have a pretty good draft. Still needs some work. It's a marriage as you can send it to people if they want to see it. And the other thing that's sort of interesting, you know that I find it really silly that public buildings, like City Hall and schools and all that, now it's excluded from design review and the other most important buildings are now closed. And marriage is a bit of a mental asking the city attorney for an opinion of how far we can go with reviewing this. That's it. That would be good. Well, we discussed this with Sarah. And the thought is to maybe have a third recommendation form that is for those kinds of projects that really focuses what the review needs to be. And then you don't have to worry about it too much. And then other things can be optional suggestions, all of that can also go in. At least we get to take a look at. Well, unless it's something that literally has no there's no hook at all for design review. If it's a change that they're making and it's in the district, I'd be excited to hear. Doesn't matter what you are. You know what I'm going to do now? I'm going to move to Germany. Do I hear a second? All in favor of adjournment. Raise your hand. Meeting is adjourned. And these are the old boundaries under the pre-2018 zoning bylaws. The ones that you see in your handout are the current 2018 boundaries. For the setbacks? For the setbacks? The final plat has the correct setbacks on it. Okay, so it doesn't really impact. So on this building, this edition, would there be any access from the rear? Or is this essentially the end of the building would be non-accessible? Possibly pedestrian access in the event of an emergency, a fire, but not there's going to be no paving or any sidewalks or anything out there. And then this won't... Were there any plantings or vegetation scheduled for this area? When you say there's a pedestrian access, I'm looking at this drawing and almost it's hard to tell because this may be elevation lines. Would that be on the... If I'm standing on the property next door and I'm looking at the new edition, would the pedestrian access be on the side or would it be right facing me? It's going to be a sprinkler building. It is a sprinkler building with a firearm system so I'm just talking about a 5x5 pad for exiting the building in the event of an emergency. Not... Not anything dramatic. Probably something similar to that 5x5 pad. This is a one-story building, correct? The new edition part anyway? As I recall, previously we had one last month about a backup generator. Is that in this area? Yeah. It's shown on a plan that hasn't changed at all. So really, it's just this building addition in the one parking space. What about this drainage... On the kind of existing plan, there's a drainage swell that goes from kind of one side of the proposed edition through the proposed edition How is this going to affect drainage? What about from water from the northeast of the proposed edition? Like in here? Yep. In the parking area, it drains to where? Where? Especially the parking area to the north. In this parking area here, it generally drains to catch basins and drainage. So there's that amount of water just going to sheet to the east, I guess, from that little bit of area that's now disconnected from that drainage swell. It's just that area that would be the water would be going. Any other questions? Will this require a change to any of your state permits? The only one would be states don't want to discharge permit. And again, we're thinking of more of an administrative process just based on having that conversation with the changes there. So we may just condition whatever we need. Just having that filed. That's what Department of Public Works asked for. Would there be a condition that would require them to file their updated states for water permit in the city? Yep. And you have no problem with that? As long as we could just say that if one is required. The state would avoid an opportunity. I didn't say avoid. Okay, so obviously if there's no amendment there's nothing to be filed. So nullity. Any other questions or concerns? From the board? I mean this is a pretty minor amendment and straightforward seems like. Does this have any effect on the landscape plan? No, all of you focus on the mountains around the larger proposed parking lot in the river. Right. And if my recollections correct the abutting landowner behind the building that's forested in the area right now or at least has some vegetation. It's pretty much an open field to the rear of our property boundary. But I'm thinking to the east here. Okay. If any member of the board wishes to make a motion. Mr. Chair I will move that the board approve the site plan amendments at one home farm way. We accept that friendly amendment to add the condition that if a storm water permit update is required such will be filed with the city. I accept that friendly amendment. Thank you. Any further discussion? Mr. Chairman I would also add that all conditions of the previous approval remain in full force and effect as well. Right. Because that would impact the expiration date so right. That's why those conditions are on the end of the staff report. Will the moving parties accept that friendly amendment? Second friendly amendment as well. Thank you. Hearing that any further discussion? All those in favor please raise your right hand and have your permit in 30 days. Thank you very much. Next item of business is sketch plan review. Our national life insurance company 155 north field street. Good evening. If you will state your name for the record. Chris. Just to explain our process on sketch plan review when we do a subdivision this is the first step. We won't put you under oath. This is mainly an opportunity for us to proverbially to kick the tires of the application and to ask questions and to see what needs to be fleshed out or what issues we may have for you to make a determination. So it's an informal process. It used to result in us making a vote as to whether we would combine a certain process down the road but in this case it does not. It's just simply an opportunity for you to hear and the necessary first step. So what I'll have you do is walk through the proposed application as well as any issues that you foresee and ways that you've addressed them. Laura George. On national life we'd like to subdivide I believe you have it in your package essentially between the parcel surrounding the happens all the time. Thanks. So they'd like to subdivide a parcel of land around the existing pre-school that is operated by the Orchard Valley School on the property to enable them to convey the land fee simple to the operators of the school. The school as well as a solar farm in the community garden occupy approximately 18 acres of land owned by national life that is held as a standalone fee simple parcel. The property was acquired in 68 has never been merged with the adjoining lands of national life so you folks have to bear with me I've had a cold for a few years. There's never been any action on the part of national life to merge those parcels the listers have combined them as a term they use for the taxation purposes and it is a standalone parcel that national life could choose to sell in its entirety at this at any point in time without any kind of approval. So it's that parcel that we have focused on it's that parcel that we have treated as the parent parcel of the tract with the remaining a lot to with a solar farm and the community garden being the 15.8 reflected on the overall parcel that in set there are no changes proposed to the operation of the school whatsoever it's currently permitted for 24 students and four staff through the state wastewater permit process there is one late addition that I was unaware of as a result of a question I posed after the application was filed with national life there is a one bedroom apartment in the building as well it's not well clear well spelled out in the state wastewater permit it refers to the conversion of one unit of a duplex for the school purposes doesn't really address the existing the existing at the time and continues the existing apartment but once you look more closely at the actual flows that were permitted it's clear that it does include the apartment so that is there and that was not I don't believe reflected on the sketch plan application and that will continue that would be to continue that use as well a couple of questions that we had going through the process of preparing what you see in front of you were one getting the board's blessing on not having to survey the entirety of the balance of that piece it was surveyed in 1957 just prior to national life acquiring the property that survey is on record it's considerably more work and more expensive national life we have to survey the whole thing if the board feels necessary certainly that's what we'll have to do we'd like to at least make the pitch that we've done what you see in front of you is what would be necessary to get to guarantee your blessing well you haven't surveyed have you done any reconnoitering to see if any of the pins are still there we've surveyed the lines immediately adjacent to the parcel we're creating the two and a half acres and some out beyond it to verify that the lots we've tied in we have meant our statutory obligations as surveyors relative to the two acre parcel that is being sub divided so the actual two acre parcel you've done the survey to create those lines you've also confirmed for example the grenier and the tosy the research back to the original grand tours early 1800s the staff comment there came from the department of public works pretty vehement about trying to make sure both lots in a subdivision have been surveyed but it's also I think because there were no notes on here confirming that the larger parcel had been surveyed previously and that might be one reason he brought that up maybe it's just a question of I don't know if the standard is to would be to potentially reference that older survey for a lot too on here survey is noted as reference number one on the plan but it's not necessarily the one from 1957 yes okay sorry I thought you said 67 earlier maybe I did yeah I think it's all here so I think that was just Tom being extra vigilant so we have I don't know if that's being extra vigilant or just being correct yeah making sure that everything is surveyed right and that's I just because this is here it's not an issue now because national life is still going to retain ownership of the two parcels but down the road you know who knows 20 30 years but you can rest on the earlier surface and that was my thought is that we can probably rest here on the 1957 survey I think he just didn't realize that that's what it was the 1957 survey was of the whole lot one and two together but there hasn't been an earlier survey I don't I mean the comment that Tom makes is really geared towards making sure that both lots comply and conform with so we don't create an on conforming line and I think I think the Meredith is right as far as the 1957 survey if it's there should satisfy you know with some degree of professional confidence that lot two either equals or exceeds the 15.8 acres and I think would think from national life's point of view they just want to be sure that these were separately called parcels only because is this in a rural district gateway um that can obviously have subdivision ramifications down the road if there's any certainly if there's more if there's more intensive work to be done and had there if we were bouncing around any kind of regulatory thresholds relative to the major parcel that would have been part and parcel what we would undertake in the very beginning I'm just looking at the overall parcel map where you have the boundaries drawn out for a lot too I mean that's just based off of the 57 survey um I'm personally not don't feel that there's necessarily strong reason to have to redo 57 survey work for this subdivision when by all evidence the remaining 15.8 acre is going to be more than sufficient size lot it has frontage um all the other normal issues that we address here and in fact the Tom highlights the reason for aligning at least in this case don't seem to be triggered but that's one board members I'm satisfied by that I wanted to just make sure we got the adequate discussion has the 18 foot wide easement has that been defined in terms of responsibility for the easement between the two lots not at this point no and that's something the board really would if they want you on this folks want to see that as because the remaining lot too has adequate frontage has alternative access it's not something that popped right up on our radar out of the gate certainly it's going to have to be as part of the transaction those I mean of necessity the attorneys are going to have to work that out the three of them if the board wants to see that language ahead of time absolutely put that together the permit would you be amenable to having the condition be that you record with the the zoning administrator the conditions of the easement as well as the location of it in terms of like a meets and bounds yes certainly we can add it's curve and tangent math on the easement as I depicted it it's easy enough to put those annotations on that sketch plan alright and the 18 foot width is dictated by the available space between the buildings that's the only sign of that this is an existing farm lane yeah it actually goes up to the it serves the it's the primary entrance to the solar farm actually I mean that I see that as an important easement to establish because of that because it is the entrance to the solar farm oh yeah it will definitely be part of the transaction and then one of the notes is that the 50 foot water set back on either side of the stream I know that there is a stream to the east of the building yep there's an intermittent stream that runs down through a significant gully we didn't map the stream the threat of the stream as a matter of normal course we did not map necessarily some of the other topographic features that might define the limits of setbacks top of bank etc which would to make it meaningful would be necessary to do as we are not proposing any development we didn't believe it to be necessary as a first course to do that certainly any application that came back in front of the board that proposed proposed development would necessitate those features being mapped more thoroughly I hate to just throw buffers based on just the threat of stream and people seem to think that's something that's meaningful and down the road not have it meaningful I'd rather have less information if it's not going to be completely accurate correct I would not like to include it on the map and it's going to take some significant work to map those top of bank features in order to get the appropriate buffers on well I think the purpose of that and I think we do require some illustration of the setbacks in part to illustrate the building while I understand this is somewhat different as opposed to say taking a piece of raw land and subdividing it off with the idea that anything could be built there and you create the building envelope this has existing structures on it and really an established use but I mean I don't know what the school's plans are for the facility if they're planning on expanding or even what successive owners will be doing I think it's important for us in our subdivision review to be able to identify that you know is this a parcel that has reached its building capacity on this site or are there other sort of building envelopes that helps us identify and understand the nature of this parcel Chair I agree with you and I would just note that in this district the lot size is a 20,000 square foot minimum lot size so the creation of the two acre lot for now it could be subdivided into additional lots later at which point it would be very important to know what's where so echoing and I guess my only pushback would I don't disagree with you that those elements are going to be a necessary element for the purposes of this application I would suggest that they're not but this is your value right now I guess my question is publicly available LiDAR data from the contours would that effectively show the width of the stream you could show a prock in the setback based off that or is that something it depends we've been actually using that the available one foot from the VCGI LiDAR stuff a lot lately some areas it's really good some areas it's not so hot certainly we could get something on there we could take that approach I'm not sure if in the future LiDAR data turns out not to be so good that we haven't just gone through the exercise without it really being a regulatory boundary that may be applicable in the field I guess is my only reluctance based on the VCGI just don't know until you try it one area would be great lay right on the actual field generated topography and then all of a sudden fall off a cliff vertical discrepancy would a as a matter of notice showing some showing some buffers based on the stream centerline with a with a note putting future individuals on notice that there's something to be look at more closely here with that I mean I can qualify a note such that it doesn't well that's actually where I was clear that what's shown on the plane is not necessarily a regulatory boundary right and that's actually where I was headed with my next question and comment because I think that that's really what we're getting at is an issue of notice and an issue of marking this even if it's not into the level of detail that would successive developments would require at least giving people notice of this it also helps I think it helps us to support visually to see that I mean I'm familiar with this area having sent two kids through that school having having hiked and put the muffin man on the hillside there I know that there is that stream and gully and I think it's important to at least demarcate to a certain extent understand so I think we're amenable to that that type of not requiring you to go into extensive mapping and surveying for something that really isn't going to be touched at this point in time or have plans to be touched in the near future but it also helps us to and understand and I think ultimately the school both national life and the grantee it benefits them because they know what they're getting precisely so that there's no confusion that they're not receiving something such as the parcel presumably they'll be familiar with it but if there were plans for future development having that having that there I think protects national life but it also puts the Orchard Valley people on notice that this is going to be a difficult area this will remain essentially what it is for the future so I think that's helpful and I think that seems to be amenable were there any other questions from the board? Claire? I had a question about the the field drive and is that the principal access to the community garden and I was just curious where the parking is for the community garden where does that field drive go it is the access to the community garden and it's not very well defined where the parking is not what they would call developed but it is it's just around the north side of the garden from above it looks as if the field drive from the picture it's included in our packet which appears to be from sort of a google or snapshot looks as if the field drive goes past the community gardens up along towards the back it includes access to the balance of the additional question about this set back to the solar farm and is that a this new boundary line won't impact the PUC's approved set back for the solar farm? the public utility commission that is a question I have actually landed that in the laps of the turnings at that national white to give answers to however this subdivision we're proposing relates to that and I haven't gotten any answers yet I don't have an answer for you that really is in their laps at this point the initial response was I shouldn't have any difference but I don't know that's the truth I think it does have a difference only because in that corner if there is a requirement for additional set back that would be something that would have to be burdened on one no developer to a certain point it could be or there could be a boundary line adjustment with that but obviously I expected to have an answer to that by now and it's something that slipped off my radar any further questions? a question about use because I'm guessing that this lot is currently permitted as the child care school as the principal use and so I was curious about with lot two what would be the identified principal use of lot two once that's been subdivided well I mean in this case it's not it's not like there was one principal use it was just three shared uses and so what do they say in here utility structures and agricultural uses they're all permitted in the western gateway so the second lot would be a shared use between agricultural and basically utility for the solar farm neither of which the city regulates neither of them are conditional agricultural and utility we don't have a lot of say in those I'm not sure if that community garden would meet the definition of agricultural use but on the other one I was just curious on what you consider a community garden is it considered like a community center I mean agriculture is fairly broadly defined and so it is pretty broadly defined for that to be for a bonafide agricultural used to be exempted from local zoning there's some specific definitions it would have to meet and I don't think anyway at this point we're not changing uses so I don't have to worry about the full all I know is that agricultural uses are permitted in that district and so we're not worried about a conditional use of any of these we aren't going through the whole change of use process so if we were then I'd be looking at that more closely so all are permitted and it would just continue it just would be they're all unchanged uses at this point right so any other questions all right I think that gives you something to consider and Kate you have another something to add and certainly Meredith is happy to help work with you but I mean overall it seems like a fairly straightforward subdivision and we'll see you back for final subdivision review thank you thank you oh I'm sorry before did you ma'am were you here for any okay people usually all right so let me make some business announcements because we're going to go into executive session first of all our next regularly scheduled meeting is for Monday December 3rd 2018 however my understanding is that there are no current pending applications for that December 3rd meeting correct so it's kind of up to you do you guys want to meet to discuss something on the 3rd or not I mean how soon does someone have to submit something they've missed the deadline we can't we can't there's no we have to have public the only reason why there would be a meeting on the 3rd would be if you as the remainder group are deliberating the parking garage application if you would seek to use that as a second night for deliberations or you know there is always the possibility for we actually Meredith looked into the possibility to do some training however because of the relatively short notice it's not we don't think we would be able to have anything together of substance now we could come and we could chit chat I don't know if that's a good use of our time I think it's a good idea that we continue to simply maybe take advantage of this I know the rest of board has been working hard and you're entitled to a break and we're going into the winter session I suspect this will not be the only Monday where we have a very light schedule just because it generally tends to lighten up in the winter months and we can it's not our only opportunity to do additional training can we decide now because we're going to be doing collaboration and we may not really know if we need it we don't have to decide no we know that's where I was with that too as well I'd like to have that as a possible option I would want to load up December 3rd with other activities we may not need it but we may and I think we can just simply leave it there if however the December 3rd meeting is canceled our next meeting would then become Monday December 17th which would be our last regularly scheduled meeting for the DRB in 2018 so with that I want to make a note that Kate and I will be using ourselves from the deliberations that you all are about to move into and we'll actually leave the building before you begin deliberations so I understand that there is a need to continue to review the 100 State Street application I'll take a motion to go into deliberative session so I'll move motion by Kevin do I have a second second by Tom all those in favor of going into deliberative session please raise your right hand alright we are in deliberative session thank you very much