 We are, we are recording now and we're open to attendees and you're open. So I'm going to wait to see if any attendees show up before I'll formally start on attendees. I wondered if it would be possible to have attendees be able or public comment be made at the beginning, instead of we don't have a public hearing or anything before we get into the meat of discussion. And then we could always have the, you know, public comment again after we've talked about certain. I was planning on doing it sometime during the bylaw discussion, middle and not waiting till outreach and all. We'll see who shows up and try and catch it when we've got the most people. Okay, Pam, that might be early. We'll see. But yes, we might do two or something, but I was planning on certainly doing it earlier and maybe mid discussion. I mean, maybe people aren't talking necessarily about rental bylaws. So they might want to just bring their stuff up earlier and not have to sit through it. Okay, I'm going to get started right now. We are still missing Shalini, but maybe by the time I'm done my speech. So I'm seeing a presence of a quorum. I am calling this August 22, August 25, 2022, regular meeting of the CRC to order and pursuant to chapter 20 of the Acts of 21 and extended by chapter 22 of the acts of 22 and by chapter 20, chapter 107 of the acts of 2022. This meeting will be conducted by remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via zoom or telephone. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time by a technological means. With that, I'm going to roll call to make sure that we're recording in progress. Everyone here and here. Well, Shalini, I muted you when you came in. Hi, Shalini. I muted you when you came in. It sounds like there's an echo on your line. Okay. How's that? I think that sounds good. Yeah. Okay. So attendance, Shalini. I'm here. Pat. Present. Mandy's present Pam. And Jennifer. Present. Everyone present. We will move right into our agenda, which is no public hearings. We have action items. We just have one. Most of the meeting will be residential rental bylaw, the review of the language and further discussion. And then around six o'clock is when I hope to potentially run and turn to outreach. So that's sort of my thoughts. Maybe a little later, depending on when we do public comment and all, we do not have minutes today. That is my fault. So we will make sure we do them next time. And so, yeah, so hopefully most of this meeting is on the bylaw language. So I will explain stuff first as to what we're looking at today, what I hope to get through potentially. And then we see attendees still coming in. We'll probably do a little bit of the conversation and then we'll go to public comment and then we'll continue our conversation. I just want to make sure that for people running late, they don't miss public comment. So this most recent draft and a new one went into the packet today. Includes changed language for some of the bigger sections, the how to issue or deny a permit. What inspections and other requirements are needed in order to meet the quality, the requirements for a permit. And the penalties and incentives and, you know, violations, what a violation is how to enforce what the penalties are that section. Those are all in blue. There is a section in orange, which is sort of permit display use and consent that has been pulled from before. We haven't really talked about that. If we have time today, I would like to briefly talk about it because it is a section that truly needs legal review because of the state laws, how much tenant and rentals, tendencies and rentals are regulated at the state level. And so I'd like us to talk a little bit about that so that we can send this working draft off to legal to get some legal opinions on what we might be thinking are considering, including in a bylaw to make sure they are legal or not. It would be better to know that sooner rather than later I feel so I'd like us to if we can get to even though we haven't discussed language get to some of that there so that we have something to send off to legal or questions for legal. And then the new things that went in today are things that Pam has added at my request. She has been working a little bit on the regulations and potential draft regulations they're not in any format right now we've been adding stuff in. I don't think we'll get to discussing some of that today but it is definitely relevant to the penalties and violations section. And when I was at the board of licensed commissioners meeting, they expressed some very nice willingness to receive draft regulations. So that they didn't have to start from scratch and so if we can get that done to some sort of draft about what regulations might include if they are the ones that are going to be adopting regulations. They would be appreciative of receiving our thoughts on that and having that start so I had asked Pam to sort of take the lead on what those regulations might look like any potential changes to that as we discuss them. I don't know whether we'll have time today in an hour and a half to get through all of that. That that was many of the things that she added to that was stuff with that and I know some of it is up and some of her comments on that are as it relates to the bylaw because the bylaw language goes directly hand in hand with any regulations we propose in some sense, some of which might be more appropriate in the bylaw itself. So I want to thank Pam for taking some of the lead on that and putting some of those comments in. With that, before we go to public comment, and this may be just one of a couple times we hear the public in. Are there any questions about what's been going on or what we're going to try and accomplish today. Seeing none. We are going to go to public comment and this is going to be the general public comment period but it's also the just general public comment is public comment on matters within the jurisdiction of CRC this can be anything related to rental registration or anything else related to CRC it doesn't have to be non rental registration related either. So that's been for everything. And anyone who would like to make a comment can express their views for up to three minutes at this time. And as I said, as we go through this discussion in the next hour and a half I'm going to try to potentially every half hour or about when we switch sections of the bylaw to try and take more public comments so that that people can be a little more involved and we can hear people who have attended in that in that situation. If you don't want to hang around the whole time or if you want to say something right now, please raise your hand and we will recognize you in turn. So at this time, I see no hands going up and as I said we will try and another 45 minutes or so half hour depending on how long it takes us to get through some of the sections to do this again to see if anyone has anything else they'd like to say. So with that, we're going to move on to the language discussion and all and I would like us to focus a little bit on the language. Today, anything that might be missing or not missing from sections and I know there's a lot of blue blue is stuff changed from the last draft you saw we're trying to keep track of that just so people can see. We're going to skip every section of blue. We're going to hit the big ones that are mostly blue. But we're going to skip the penalties for a violation of the rent, the penalty block that very first block that is totally blue right now. $300 is the max we can put in here. So if people want that different than 300 than the max we can certainly think talk about that later but that's why 300 is in there we cannot go any higher when we get down to penalties will deal with what that means, but Pam. So I'm just thinking that penalty doesn't necessarily have to be a fine. That sounds like a fine a penalty could also be a loss of license loss of loss of permit so you shouldn't forget that. And so this block does say C section, whatever for the non monetary penalties. So, so that's why it's sort of in there and that that reminds me I do need to share this so everyone knows what we're looking at. In a bigger print as you can make it working on it. That did not do anything. I know that. So I'm going to not show the comments because the comments are sort of just reminders of we need a legal for XYZ type thing. And that should be allowed us to see things a little bit bigger. And I do sometimes lose hands in this view I will try to keep them but if someone sees a hand raised that I have not acknowledged just tell me. Okay, so the first thing we're going to go down to is the issuance or denial section this is one of the newer sections. I don't know if it was even in the last draft we saw in a packet, because I just don't remember. But this is basically the section that says, here's what you have to complete or meet in order to be issued a permit. And here's how a permit can be denied. Okay, so we're going to move the page down the renewals language was already in some of these I just moved it into this section. I think it was somewhere else in the bylaw which is why it's black not blue. And then there's a couple of other things about how long the period is valid for and and other things like that that we can discuss. So any particular and we're opening up to discussion on this section on issuing or denying a permit. Pam. I like to look at the one and really just get a quick conversation about do we really, what do we want here. So it says a separate residential rental permit shall be issued for each individual building, noting the number of dwelling units included in each permit. So I just want to clarify for myself. That means that if it's a brandy line building with, I don't know 24 units in a building. There is still just one building permit. And then. So that's a question that would be. So separately, if, if there's a property with, you know, three little interconnected units that would still be one building permit, one individual house would also be one individual permit is that how I'm reading this. And that is how it was written right now, which is different from how we do it now which is per parcel. So a puffed in right now gets one permit. But under this language they would get. Oh, I don't know how many buildings they have. I'm scared to have 10, 12, 14 permits. I'm not sure how many buildings they have it popped in but brandy line that I think only has two or three buildings would only need two or three permits. This does not dictate what the fee might be for the permit. The fee to be per building or per fee per unit or go up them and depending on the number of units in a building. But it would be, it would mean that on an application, all the units in one building or one application. Whereas if you do a permit per unit, I believe that would mean someone like puffed in would have to file 40, you know, 100 and some applications. So I think we want to think about what the applications are versus the fees. But Rob can talk more, I think, and we'll go back to Pam Rob. No, actually I have a question what what is the last sentence of that number one intended to cover. You know, based on what you just described it puffed in that has, you know, one single address for the property and, you know, buildings a through Z. Would that not be one single permit. So that that might be one single permit then an ADU, you know, there are some duplexes that have to addresses I think. There are a number of types of properties that are, you know, signed addresses by building addresses by units for, you know, more recent years and what we're doing now is establishing a, a number address for the property and then identifying buildings by usually a letter and then unit numbers. It's kind of a sequence. So that language is just held over from where a boulder I think did it per building. And so I'd love to hear if you think it would be best to get rid of that language or Rob where whether you think it still should be parcel building or unit if any of those are there. I'm not aware of any reason are, you know, downside to what we've done so far. I haven't heard of any problems. You know it does require multiple copies of the certificate to be printed and displayed in various buildings, and certainly is a lot less paperwork for the applicant and for us to keep it by parcel when it's under the same ownership. Jennifer do you have questions before I ask my question or anyone else but I know you guys hands were up. I will ask that question of Rob, you know whether, yeah, made sense to do it this way, but you answered it. Thank you. And since it doesn't affect the fee. That's the totally different. Oh, Pam. We don't know if it affects the fee yet so it's right. It actually does seem a little contradictory to have the first sentence and the last sentence and that's why I brought up this question is we really need to think about the ramifications. Clearly, it feels like there ought to be probably a few more permits issued for large properties. We've talked about, you know, trying to separate from fee but we've talked about possibly fee per unit as opposed to fee per property or fee per building and, and again, it really needs to look that carefully with, you know, a whole slew of examples that we could do to kind of compare the approach and understand how how that affects both the workload for the town and what we're trying to accomplish here. Yeah, so I have two questions and they both go to in my thinking I think I prefer per building at this point but that's why I have these questions the first one is about suspensions and failure to issue a permit but mainly suspensions if we were going to start actually suspending permits. If there's one permit per parcel. If a permit say at puffed in is suspended or brandy wine that means every unit on that parcel can't be rented. I think as the way we've got it written so that's one way I was thinking about maybe more permits are more useful because maybe we could use suspensions more because I have a feeling, Rob and john correct me if I'm wrong you would be really able to suspend or non renew a permit for an entire apartment complex versus a building of four units in the apartment complex. So that's question number one and I guess question number two goes directly to inspections. So inspections are per permit that means if we're issuing a permit for every building more units will need to be inspected in those larger complexes, every time an inspection is due. Because it's we haven't set those regulations and all yet but I know we were thinking some sort of percentage but if you had up to 25 units in a building. And so if each permit only covers a building of up to 25 units in most of the places. Every unit would need inspected at a puffed in potentially versus a percentage of units and so that that issuance of decision of permit per building permit per unit permit per parcel has direct effect on those two items and I don't know which our town would prefer on those two items john. Yeah, I, I get your point about, you know, denying someone's permit or revoking somebody's permit but the properties that you're talking about, you know boulders or puffed in those aren't. We're not there that that often. They're they're not actually in the spotlight as far as problem properties. So it seems like a lot of paper handling for not not much outcome. So to add to that, you know, if a larger property that has multiple buildings, if we're looking at suspension for code reasons life safety, sanitary conditions, we don't need that, you know, that ability in this bylaw to be able to do that and separate those those problem issues from the rest of the complex. If we're looking at it to be more of, you know, the other types of potential violations that could lead to suspension that are not related to building and safety codes. So we could address that in the penalty section in another way, and not necessarily have to have it rely on the permit issuance and, and I would say the same thing for inspections I think just because we issue a permit per building or per property. We just could address when there are multiple buildings multiple units under the same ownership on the same property and allow for those different inspection schedules. Thanks Rob. Shawnee. So if the charge fees based on the units. And can we do that if you're not really doing the inspection like shouldn't the service be commensurate with the fees. Does that make sense. Is that clear. So I think that's where how many units get inspected per complex or building unit size so if there's five units all of them get inspected that requires more work than one unit, a single family home getting inspected right and a parcel like brandy wine or or boulders that has a lot of units. If it's not everyone, you know, a lot of the towns and cities that do this do a percentage over a certain number like if there's more than 25 units they start doing a percentage but no less than 25 such that at least 25 are being inspected and all of these and that that requires a different level of commitment from one and once you've done that. You can in some sense justify the differential and fees because there is different work in order to issue that permit. Is that is that you're thinking Rob Rob. Yeah, and in addition to that, you know those larger apartment buildings where we might be doing fewer inspections than the number of units have common areas. And that takes time to the hallways the laundry rooms. The areas that the tenants would be accessing to get over going through to get to their units would be part of that inspection so that you know helps justify or that takes additional time, then maybe a single family or duplex would John. I'm going to point that out to I mean we're, we're doing those common areas every two years anyway so you know if I'm at the boulders doing all of the common areas I'm walking through all of the hallways I'm going in all of the laundry rooms. I'm going to do an additional 10 apartments or something like that I'm already there. So, you know I'm there for three hours, or I'm there for four hours it's that would make sense to tie it to that sort of a schedule. The times when we're there. So, am I hearing from our committee, I've heard from Robin john that per parcel is preferable due to paperwork and other issues and not a need for having it per building or per unit here to get to other issues that it can be dealt with somewhere but from the committee I just want to make a note, if we want to change this language if it's not per building. And so, can I just have a informal raise of, or just I'll just go through committee members said I can give their preference on, which is preferred building parcel or unit for the permit. Shawnee. So I'm hearing a no for the buildings and more and yes for the parcel like the logic for that. Can we highlight what is the line especially if the fees and all of that is separate. So can I hear what is the logic for them doing it for a building like what are the pros for So my original logic was on the penalty side, it allows you to suspend a much smaller portion of the set of units on any one parcel, if you do it per building. But Robin john at least to me have convinced me that we can rewrite the penalty section to give more leeway on suspension such that we might not need more permits on a parcel to do it that way. Jennifer. No, I would defer to Robin john on this, since it's not related to keys. So I'm just going to make a note that we modify that to go per parcel I think. Is that agreeable to everyone. I haven't had my say, Pam, Pam, I'll change my note if you don't like that. I think it makes sense what we just heard that that by parcel is is preferable, just from a paperwork standpoint, I want to be really careful that that because we have it by parcel that we in fact don't then overly penalize or overly permit, you know, everybody else in town, which is lots of the smaller unit. And that's, that's why, you know, by building was starting to make sense. Jennifer. Yeah, um, noise would be clear I mean if the perm if the fee, because, again, what I think we're hearing from the property owners is that that's a separate discussion. But that somebody owns one house feels that they shouldn't pay the same permitting fee as someone that, you know, has 100 units, but that's totally separate we're not implying that here. Correct. And we haven't gotten to drafting the fee schedule yet, but part of the whole point of this in my mind is then to be able to get us to a fee schedule that makes it more commensurate to that. Pat. Just to continue each of us responding I would like to go with John and Rob suggestion of it being by parcel. Thank you, Pat. So I will try to rewrite the section for parcel and you saw the notes I typed into the comment section address those within the different sections as we get to them and changes to those sections to the rest of this. I did have one question myself on number eight permits all July one and June 30. That's what our current bylaw does it makes it easy in that sense for renewals everything at the same time but if we're going to be putting inspections on I've been struggling as to drafting a bylaw. That's like yearly inspections but when is it done if everything's up at once poor inspections and john would be doing everything in June, or may potentially and we already have the problem of everyone moves out if we do the required inspections if we require inspections at every change in tenancy. We're already putting all those inspections within a certain amount of time potentially. So is it worth considering in permits that are valid upon issuance and for a certain amount of time after issuance such that we might start staggering the permit time, you know the permit renewal time period is not all at once it becomes sort of yearly depending on when an owner has applied for permit and then their permits valid for a year from whatever date it's issued versus July one to June 30. John. I guess my question is about with the inspections why is it tied to a move out date. So, we'll get to that section one of the things we had in that section as we get to that was a, I think Pam you can do this we drafted something that said upon change in tenancy and inspection, but we can look at the language specifically if I tried to put in there, if it hadn't been inspected within the last six months or something in there. So, I mean I could see why I could see, you know we stay with the annual renewal of all the permits that's a easy way to go, and then at some point during the year, you're going to get inspected. I think that's how I've tried to write this section up here. Where did I do it. Past inspections within the applicable timeframe in accordance with section eight and applicable regulations and so that's how I sort of tried to do it there, like if you meet the regs for when you were less inspected, you met that requirement. So, John, does that mean that you that Pam first and then I'll go back to John and Rob. Well that that's helpful because I was going to ask, you know what is what is most typical here in Amherst, I can't remember. I can't remember when, when Lisa start I know we're not a shepherd isn't the audience you can tell us, but what's the typical start of rentals, and you know what's the year cycle. What I heard from John Thompson though, it's helpful to understand that it could still work. It's, I mean it's sort of awkward in the wording but it could still work to have those inspections occur on a on a rotating basis around the year because there's no way they're going to get them all done with every change of tenancy in July. John, or Rob. Yeah, I just think it's more manageable. If, if you can, you know, put them on a different schedule. It breaks it up and you can spread it over the year. Yeah. Okay, Rob. Yeah, I don't even think there's an option with this. I don't think we would ever be able to perform that many inspections in that short period of time, no matter how large our staff was. So I think we're going to be looking at a staggered schedule for inspections. You know, when I think about why we, we picked that date there might have been a couple of reasons back in 2013 or 14 when we decided on that. For whatever it's worth. It's good now for us again more of a department thing we issue almost 5000 licenses or permits a year, and programs have different dates, you know, for health licenses, we start dealing with those in October. So, you know, the annual renewal and restaurant licenses are at the end of the year by state law requirements. So, you know, it was, it's a convenient time of the year to deal with a bulk number of applications and have staff that's able to focus on that. So for that reason alone, I think it's, it's good where it is. Thank you for that clarification. Any other questions, concerns or comments on the language in this issuance or denial section from anyone. I still would like to know what the typical rental lease cycle is for most for most properties in town. Rob. Do you know. I'll actually pass it off to John if he knows better than I do. John. I think that. I think it's, it's around June 1. I think that's when most leases turn over so you know they graduate in May there's been some consternation about UMass changing their graduation date because the lease cycles are going to end and so what are these kids going to do. But I think that it's June to June and then, you know, most of them are empty all summer they they pay rent for that and then they they move in and they're moving in now I mean this next week will be the big, big push. Thank you john pat. Yeah, it. It's a rental. Lease cycle so we're only you're only responding with information or asking questions about information, referring to students is a typical family that rents a dwelling in town, or is in, is there at least the full seven one through 630. So when I rented my lease was July one to June 30. But, but I was through Amherst College, and that's the employee start date for all new hires, at least on the faculty side so it made sense that that's when they did theirs. You know when we were looking though I think the lease terms were just a year from whenever you would have rented it someone something like rolling green when I was looking for rentals. So this date does not necessarily follow a lease timing. Well then maybe, maybe we need to clarify that we're talking about student rentals. I don't know I mean just seems odd to me. Well the permit is the permit right. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, never mind. But it really is interesting how we're really only talking about student rentals that's all. Seeing no other hands for this section we're going to move on to the next section. And after the next section is one I'll go back to public comment. So, the next big one is this requirements for permit we started talking a little bit about this section I think two meetings ago, the inspections. Our inspections are energy efficiency standards occupancy limits law and regulation compliance parking site plan and living off campus certification. Let's start with inspections and then we'll go through each of the other sections and see if there's any comments on them first inspections have multiple sections so we'll start with the section that is inspections required so h1 a. Any comments is it too specific not specific to people not like the, is there issues with anything in there. I expected Robin john to have comments Rob. Yeah, I was going to suggest that it could be less prescriptive on the timelines. We have so many different situations that call for 24 hour 48 hour seven day remedies in the various codes and I think that could be left, you know, as, you know, in accordance with the applicable regulation, some sort of language that more general. And then, you know, I do have concerns about how we finally work out the whole life safety violation definition. And I just want to, I guess just as a comment for moving forward is that we, we don't try to redefine or define what a violation or life safety violation is that would be in conflict with one of our other codes so you know, just as we look at that and I think when I look back at this last week, you know there was something in the definition that concerned me but I have to go back and look for that. But those are my two general comments. So I think we deleted the definition of life safety violation, because I think Pam pointed out to me that there is sort of a defined term in state regs is there Rob. Yeah, each of them would define that probably differently or you know based on a different situation so yeah that that's that's well covered in other places. I think it was when we were trying to incorporate something like over occupancy as a life safety violation then then that starts to get a little different. Yeah, the sanitary code, which we rely on a lot has a whole section 750 violations are all life safety violations and you know they, they require immediate remediation so they're pretty well defined there's a whole. There's, there's probably 10 of them in there and then the final one is anything else that the inspector says is a life safety violation so it's, you know gets pretty broad at the end. So removing a specific definition from this bylaw is quite helpful for you all. And I guess would be do we want to mention life safety violations at all in here or would you prefer us to delete that completely. So I don't think it's necessary I think it can be, you know, based on violation, and you know that it's handled as prescribed by the applicable code or regulation being enforced by the code enforcement officer. Pam. I lost my train of thought a little bit but if we, if we, if we don't list health and safety or sanitary code any of those building code violations. Specifically, I want to somehow be able to tie those to a point system where we're really talking urgent and dangerous living conditions which needs to be addressed. You know the time the time frame or the turnaround time, we could leave flexible because that is per handled by prescribed code. But I do want to mention them because I do want to be able to assign a point to start building properties for properties that are problems. I am trying to tie violations to owners and building property managers. The only way it's the only way we're going to get any kind of, you know, better to Jennifer. I had a question in, you know, reading the survey forms on engage amours that came back and the ones that were completed by tenants. So there was a lot of, you know, mention of mold or windows that don't close completely so it's cold in the winter of utilities or even stoves that work intermittently. And I'm just wondering those types of, is that a, is that actually a code violation? Like is mold something that would and would. Were you finished Jennifer? You know, I just lost you completely. I'm sorry. No. Okay. So I thought I had lost you. But are those, are those violations that is it seems that there's a lot of recurring concerns in those survey forms and I'm wondering if those are violations that would be cited. John. Yeah, so mold is not called out specifically in the sanitary code, but excess moisture is is how we address it usually why, why is their mold. So if there's mold in the bathroom is the bath fan actually working or the people turning the bath fan on. That way is if there's a stove that's not working or there's even a single burner on a four burner stove that's not working. Yeah, that's that's something that's addressed. And it's addressed through the sanitary code. So if your windows don't close the windows are supposed to be operable. You know, if you can't close them and lock them. They're not operable if they don't stay up. They're also not operable. Those are all things we look for when we're in a, when we're in a unit. Okay. Thank you. And those could be if it's a violation it's not fixed. It could, if we do a point system that could accrue those could. So the way we handle them is, you know, you, depending on how egregious it is, we assign a time to remedy so, you know, if it's a 750 violation it needs to be done in 24 hours. If it's a window that doesn't stay up or doesn't close or doesn't lock, how about 15 days I'll give you 15 days to fix that 30 days for this other thing. I don't have a handrail on the basement stairs I need that fixed in seven days, that sort of thing. So, you know, and then we just track those and then we go back and do a reinspection I just did one in a place today. You know they've had 30 days to fix the things that needed to be fixed and yeah they were all set they can get a certificate of compliance now. Thank you. If they don't fix them. You know we find them. Any other questions on this part. Pam. So I just needed to talk about john's last point if we don't if they don't fix them we find them. I would like to find them, but I would also like to assign some points so that their behavior over time is, you know, within X number of years is recognized as being poor landlords. And I don't know. I like the idea I didn't know they were fine, but that's helpful to know. So it's $100 a day. Once you once you've assigned that remedy period. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. And we'll talk about the point system when we get down there. In more detail at least. Frequency of inspections any thoughts and comments on this. So this is where three years is everything, although it can extend to five. This initial inspection is an attempt to say. We're trying to say everyone needs to be inspected. When this bylaws adopted but I think I don't know whether this is possible for your department. Right. And so this is the, how do we get everyone on on an inspection schedule I put one year in here we could put that up to three years with you guys by regulation figuring out who starts with their inspections type thing. So that one I'd like to hear from and then this is where we talked about change in tenancy for fewer dwelling units. Every dwelling unit would have to be inspected during change in tenancy and then yearly inspection. If they had three or more violations within one permit year, they'd have to be inspected annually long term tendencies could go up to five years and owner occupied rentals. Don't you don't inspect the owners dwelling unit. Thoughts on this section this portion of the section the frequency section. Rob. I think when we, you know, get further along and figuring out how we would implement this bylaw, you know, in number two I think that that one year would probably be increased to three years. But I, you know, I guess we can leave that for, you know, final decision based on how we think we can staff this. I think we're ever going to conduct inspections that change of tenancy. I think if we're on that three year schedule. That's a huge step that will be taking. And then when we move down to number four yearly inspections what I really would like to see although I find that that looks fine. I'd like, you know, further ability to set a custom inspection schedule for those proper properties that have issues, which is something that we do now. Something that I was one of the things that I wanted to have added to our current bylaw, just having the ability under, you know, under properties that have repeat violations or multiple violations. We can customize that inspection. You know, John can tell you plenty of examples that there are properties at times that we had to go there monthly we had to go there quarterly. You know, and it takes that sometimes to really institute the change that we want to see at a property and demonstrate that the manager is, is, you know, more engaged than they may have been before. I really think that's an important piece for us in this new regulation. Pam. Would, would in any case, Rob or John, the inspections occur more. Well, besides the actual problem was, would it occur any, any more frequently than one annually, because I could see that there is a whole category perhaps of rentals that, that need to get reviewed annually. Are any of these customs that you're thinking of more frequent than that. Yeah, I have properties that I inspect every, you know, like Rob said, quarterly. Well, can, can we going to keep coming back to how do we link violations and repeated, you know, needs for inspections. I want those people to be really aware that they are operating poorly, and maybe their license gets suspended. So I really want to see those properties hammered. You know, one of the ways I've, I've implemented this is, is, you know, they've been self certifying so if you just, if you just certified that your property met all applicable codes on July 1 and I go in there in August and I make three pages of notes. That, you know, pisses me off. Yeah. Yeah. And you're not actually, I don't think you're really looking at these. So we'll look at them. So, so, you know, Pam I understand that concern and we certainly have to deal with some of that I wonder if once we get under a regular inspection schedule, even every three years or every one year we'll find potentially that john doesn't need to have some property on a quarterly schedule. I, that could be pie in the sky for me right I don't know but I wonder if because we've been under self certification that that's problematic but if you're in there every year, forcing an inspection with our inspectors and those issues need fixed. They might not show up so frequent you have to be in there three or four months in a row, you know, every quarter, just to make sure. And then Jennifer. So I just want to be clear this is a very small number of properties that we currently deal with. And just in my experience and, you know, no, no way, you know, to the level that john's involved with these properties out in the field looking at them. It's, it's shocking when you know you're back there a month later or two months later, and finding no or little improvement and maybe even worse conditions. And, you know, the point system the penalties, the potential suspension are the things that we don't have now. And, you know, it's, it's just more time consuming so, although I think what Mandy what you said is, is true I think there's always going to be that small number of properties that's going to need that that that extra level of attention. Thanks, Jennifer. So we get to points, but what about a landlord applies for permit for a new building that they've acquired and it's a landlord that it has a number of problem properties, this can be any way that comes in. That that is taken into consideration. And I guess what I'm also saying and then maybe if this has to wait till points, but can you, you know, can a landlord accrue points with a property owner from different properties because you see a consistent pattern among that person's properties. So I think Pam something like that into the language. Somewhere in the penalties or regulations. Whether it's legal or not, I don't know. Again why getting a legal opinion is so important to be able to combine things but I know we've, there's some draft language somewhere farther down in this bylaw or in the regulations. But John or Rob, have you guys thought about that or do you know whether that might be possible. Rob. I guess that in the draft and, you know, I mean other than it being pretty complicated to track and monitor that. I had the same question on whether what the legal opinion would be on that so I think we'll definitely need to wait and hear more about that on one of, you know, Jennifer's questions. I lost what it was, but I had an answer to it. Other properties on by the same. Could I her question was if you've already known there that a specific property owner does not take care and always has problems on properties when they apply for a new permit for a completely new rental property. Right, yes. Thanks. You know, I think a provision on change of ownership, you know would be would be appropriate. I think it's something we typically do in our land use permits. There's not a large number of those every year. Certainly, it makes it makes us connected with the new owner and away and be able to understand their management plan for the property which is, which is really an important piece. So I would, I would be in favor of that, you know, I'm changing change of ownership. I had that somewhere in issuance but Pam, is that just like an inspection that change of ownership because theoretically there should be, there should be an inspection with any change of ownership, or, you know, issuance of a new permit. Is that what you're talking about those is an inspection are you talking about how do you link that to the to the poor track record person. John. I'm thinking that that probably most properties if they change ownership and they're just coming online for a new permit and you know they do need an inspection. Because we've never walked through that house before. We have a transfer permit section here. So if the permits already there, not, not a place that's never been a rental before but if it's been a rental and someone else buys it, and wants to keep it a rental. This is, this is what would show up in the middle of the year if it was mid year. So that they would be able to get it, assuming the use has not changed in the operation is subject to permit and management plan so that's the, the zoning use permit. Notify within 15 days and submit proposed changes in the provisions of the permit we could add an inspection requirement into this to if people would want. John, do you have thoughts on that. Since your hand is raised. No, sorry. Not a bad idea. So even if they're already a permitted place, if it changes hands, it still gets an additional inspection. I'm comfortable with that. Back to inspections we're going to go on to the exempt properties. And they are subsidized housing the dwelling units that are inspected do not need inspected by the town occasional rentals. This is sort of like Airbnb but even less. This is like sabbatical years was in there that's in there right now, and then those that were just issued a certificate of occupancy within the last three years so newly built buildings. Thoughts on those three exemptions from inspections. They're not exempt from obtaining a permit they're exempt from being inspected. Pam. I, in, in talking with Steve Walsak from Puffton village. It sounds like they get the HUD three year cycle so that they come in and inspect a certain percentage of all of the units there on a three year cycle spot spot numbers spot units are inspected. That falls under the subsidized housing is that correct I just want to make sure that we're not either adding something that doesn't require us to inspect. Are there any buildings out there that that we really have no responsibility to inspect at all besides the campuses. Rob. Do you know. I'm not thinking of any. I'm not thinking of any. I'm not thinking John feel free to help me out but I guess, you know, one comment I had on the subsidized housing. Was that maybe we don't exclude it so you know and make it more that we, we may not. Or may accept, you know, the annual report. In the middle of the situation where we are in complete disagreement with the HUD inspector. I mean it's not even it's not even it's not even close where we both fall on this and it was it was passed by the HUD inspector, and we can't allow ourselves to allow the occupancy to happen so. I think I think for for most cases that's not the issue, and we would rely and be open to accepting those, those annual certifications or three year certifications but I think we need to retain the option to, to do our inspection and not have the bylaw, you know exclude us from that possibility. Jennifer and then john. So that's really helpful input. Thank you, Rob. Examples who we never think of. So I just want to ask in terms of like someone going on sabbatical. So I understand not having an inspection they're going away for a semester a year. What if they stay longer, you know what if that semester to a year rental turns into two or three years at some point should there be an inspection or defeat like if they renew a permit for a second year then you might want to consider an inspection. So we've got this language here that says any renewal of such residential rental permit that was obtained without the need for an inspection shall comply with all including an inspection so it could be worth it. Yeah, that's. I think the intention is if you've done it for more than a year and you want to renew and do it again. Now you need an inspection. Okay. It might need better worded though john. I was going to go back to the HUD thing. So that's a specific case that we have going right now but I've actually been in this situation before and in this role where, you know, I'm any unit for something I. There's something that's a miss it's not code compliant and you know what it's just had a HUD inspection. I'm actually not sure what it is. I don't think they look for the same things that we look for. And I'm nervous about that. Would you rather us not exempt these at all. I guess I'm curious if we know how many there are. Do we Rob. We can get that for sure. I don't know. I don't know the number off top of my head but we can get it. So we'll see if we can change the language that makes you more comfortable Pam. Yeah. So I'm curious to make sure the Amherst housing trust gets inspected by you folks already right. The housing authority buildings. Authority, right. John, Rob's nodding. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. We do our periodic inspection of those buildings now of the common areas, but not of the dwelling units. Would we be. Or is that again sort of a some some other state organization goes in and does inspections and the reason I'm asking is while I was campaigning. I'm walking through some of the other units and woman says, I can't get my screen fixed on my front door. I have to reach into my front door to open the latch because it doesn't work properly. And these are all certainly things that if you were trying to their problem. Yeah, so that's a common type of a call we would respond to so we would have a health inspector go out and address that issue. We are not. We are only the building inspectors only look at a common areas major building systems but nothing within the dwelling units although, which are, you know, being inspected by these, these other inspectors. But we absolutely respond to those, those concerns or complaints by the tenants when they occur. I think Pam this subsidized housing section would exempt the specific units that were inspected from inspection unless we change the language including at the housing authority buildings. Because I believe the housing authority is a subsidized housing but I'm not, I'm not positive on that pat. I'm hearing Rob say that it's sort of complaint driven they would go there if that person complained to them but is there any. It should there be something listed that that that town will respond in those instances or in any instance. How would a tenant know that you were if they see if it's the building's been inspected, and everything's supposed to okay be okay but they have a landlord that's not complying with their need, their safety or health need. So what I'm hearing is maybe we don't want to exempt these from this inspection so that under this bylaw, our inspectors can get into the units, not just the common areas. I agree with that. But making sure that you know it still works, whether we can spread it to inspections that that have been made that have been made would be the what Rob suggested the may wave the inspection requirement, you know, our department may wave the inspection requirement pending confidence in these inspections type of thing. So, Jennifer. So to Robin john so tenants in these buildings would call it Amherst building and safety, they don't consider themselves not. They do. They call they're very complaining. So we do get in quite a few units that way. What I'm curious about with with X, with being in every single one of these is these a lot of these are long term tenants that they've been, you know, in these units for a while and we're going to, it's going to generate some, some work for us because that we get into if there's a medical emergency or, you know, there's a kitchen fire or something there's there's often other other sort of lifestyle issues that we then have to try to manage. So making them still taking them off the exempt list is not a bad thing. It gives you perhaps the option to Rob get in there. Yeah, I think if Pam finished that I would agree the, the, I'm not suggesting that we should or go inspect all of these units. But I think if we, you know, had three calls from tenants in one particular building a year, maybe we would consider not waving it that, you know, the next time the renewal was up. We can coordinate inspections with their HUD inspector we can do things that you know there's other there's options. You know we can go along for a couple of the inspections and feel good about it but you know there might be times where we just want to have that option and not have, you know, the housing authority or property owners say no you actually can't come in here because of what it says in this section. We'll work on new language for that. Moving on inspection standards much of this has been moved to potential regulations. We did include in here if it contains more than 25 dwelling units. And then everything is inspected on that initial inspection. I'm not sure my language here is right to sort of get that across, but otherwise, the percentage above 25 units in a in a property would be determined by regulation. Can you explain where the 24 and anything over 25 comes from other bylaws, other towns that have done this really was just a random number picked I saw as a common number and other bylaws. So, yeah, that's how I got that number. I'm happy to change it to anything people think is more logical. I mean, what makes me think is that I know there's been discussion by the planning department that they're looking at, you know, what are our definitions of apartment buildings right now it's anything from three to 24 units. And yet we have mixed use buildings which are literally apartment buildings, but they're allowed a whole lot more units. So, I think that I didn't know where why 24 was a magic number. It works today as one one apartment building, but tomorrow it might not work. Yeah, so it's a building but I think the way this is written now for residential rental properties. That means puffed in, which has about eight units per building, you'd still only inspect whatever that percentage, a minimum of 25 of the entire property. 25%. And then depending on how the regulation is. It could be 25% of all units minimum of 25 I think they've got more than 100 units so you know, could be 25% of all units it wouldn't be per building, it would be per property the way this is written. So, you wouldn't be in a building that has, you know with puffed in you wouldn't have to inspect 100% of the units. I'm happy to leave it for now. I just needed to think about that a little bit more. Okay, we're going to move on to two to we discussed a couple weeks ago. So we're not going to discuss that this time everyone seemed okay with the language on to energy efficiency standards. Three and four occupancy limits. So these are again these are the requirements to part of obtaining a permit you have to meet these requirements and so energy efficiency is adopted by regulation we just don't know what those regulations are going to be occupancy limits is proof of compliance with the occupancy limits for the residential rental property as specified in the zoning by law. If they don't have that proof they cannot obtain a permit law and regulation compliance all rental units and rooming units regulated shall comply with all applicable local bylaws and regulations as well as all state laws and health regulations and fire codes. I don't know whether that's comprehensive enough, Rob, from what you're looking for to allow for violations of the bylaw, but if you don't comply you don't get your permit. Don't we say that in a couple different places. We do basically. The same thing and a couple different places. And then parking site plan. This comes right out of our current bylaw I'm not sure any of the language has changed. Although it might have changed to put money, but but there is a parking site plan requirement in our current rental bylaw. I think all of that comes from there and then there's this living up shall any before we go to the living off campus certification shall any. Yeah, we've been hearing some concerns about the parking I don't. Okay, I guess the question that pertains to this is the waiver and maybe can we clarify like what might be some criteria based on which the waiver would be given. And then I was hoping that we can use this opportunity to also maybe explain to people that, you know, the downtown there, it's the where they don't require to give parking so it's not like they're getting away or getting away with anything. I don't know if you need to explain that now but I just hear those concerns all the time so we could use this opportunity to explain the downtown parking is different from residential areas. Rob, can you explain how your department enforces this particular section in the current bylaw. Yes, so the, you know the applicants require to submit a parking plan with every application, you know each application has that on file with it. In some cases the parking plans are established by a land use permit and just kind of continues on with this permit as well. The zoning bylaw has a number of different design standards for parking. For example, parking space delineation so the, the painted lines on the surface is a requirement of the bylaw. Lighting screening there's just a whole whole number of different criteria, and the waiver is used in certain cases it's used rarely but in certain cases where maybe it doesn't, you know, maybe it doesn't need to have to have to happen that way so if a good sign can replace painted lines on a gravel parking lot in a six lot, six car parking area, we might consider that and waive the delineation requirement. You know the location of the parking on the site in relation to the neighbors maybe we would waive or modify screening requirements slightly. So it happens from time to time. Most of those issues happen with the planning board of the zoning board through those process permit reviews. But occasionally we put that in there at the time just to have that ability to address the parking within the current, you know, specific situation that we might not have been anticipating. And you know, you know, enforcement of it, you know, if john gets a call and a violation of the parking on the site the first thing we do is go to a plan, we look at what was approved and what's expected out there. And, you know, then the inspection occurs and, you know, compare the two. Sometimes we find that the parking plan just doesn't work. We have to work with a property owner to improve that, not necessarily a violation that you know there's any enforcement action taken but you know, general general put efforts into making, making that parking better. So yeah, you know that's probably the day to day. Thank you Rob. Pam. I forgot what I was going to say. No other hands are up so we're going to move on to this living off campus certification. Something that I heard in comments as we were discussing general things about the bylaw as we rewrote so I tried to put this in here. UMass has some sort of living off campus certification. I want to remind people student rentals are defined as any dwelling unit, not property. And so I don't know how well this can be enforced but a student rental in this bylaw is a dwelling unit containing one or more persons unrelated attending an undergraduate college, basically. We should probably consider having it undergraduate graduate or graduate. And so, so those two go hand in hand with this and again, proof that occupants have completed this certification when you're issuing a permit. Before occupants. It, I'm, I'm, I'd like to know whether we think this is even manageable from an application point of view, given the definition of dwelling unit it means in puffed in they'd have to know who's a student and who's not versus student home I know in state college they define it homes and it's only single families, single family homes that apply to that definition, and things like that so Jennifer then john then Pam. So I think I might have initially suggested this. So I was thinking, it would, what I was thinking that it somewhere could say that we would suggest that to the landlord to the landlords were encouraged. I even feel like we're all strong to say food. So I was, that's where I'm coming from. John. I'm just thinking you know that it's a five college community we have, we have students from other schools that are here. I don't know if would they be going over to UMass to get this certification. So I believe it's an online thing and open to anyone. But I can't guarantee. So again, this is why I asked my question Pam. My understanding just from a couple years past with Sally Linowski is that they, it's sort of an educational program. They, they make sure that the students are aware of their responsibilities, as well as their right. So, I also did have the question that was like, how do we prove that they have it before you give a permit to it for a unit. I think I wonder if we could move this a different direction and that is just to say, you mass needs to require needs to notify or require a certificate from all of its students, we need to know. How many are off campus. And how many are living in ours. Oh, I think it's like. Go Jennifer. Yeah, no, I thought it was too different. I think that, you know, having a record of, you know, knowing what's out there is different than, yeah, having proof that they've actually taken this online I think they forget they should be encouraged I don't know that we need to get. A little heavy handed to have to have proof that each student has taken this online local little, you know, work plan. When john was speaking my computer froze. And you say to me, then, or the question was what about Hampshire College and Amherst College and I didn't hear the response to that so if I can get that clarified it would be helpful. John, do you want to give your comments again. Yeah, it was just exactly that. I mean, we are going to require people to take a course and get certified by UMass but some of these tenants aren't UMass students they may be students at other places. And so the thing I said was I think this is a certification that is open to anyone I'm not sure it's behind sort of a student firewall or anything but I'm not positive about that. So I'm hearing from the committee is moving this out and sort of deleting it from this section but maybe adding it into regulations about an application or some other finding another way to encourage students to take this if it's available to them. It's not making it a requirement. It, it may be discriminatory to those that are not UMass students, but fall under the definition of student rental, it may be too hard to actually enforce just all sorts of reasons why it might not be wise to put it in here as a requirement. But let's find a way to figure out how to encourage students to take this course and even non students right. I haven't taken it myself, but it could be helpful to anyone for all I know. Shalini. Yeah, I think if you change the name to something more like tenant empowering tenants and or something like, because there are two parts to it one is tenants rights and, and then also responsibilities you know. It's like the right like many tenants we heard didn't didn't know what their rights were, even though the state provides and this new bylaws going to provide a lot of rights. So I think it'll be an incentive for them to maybe participate in it and and at the same time it is like what are your responsibilities being part of a community. So maybe changing that name and that's probably you giving them that feedback that they could change the name but I think it's a very good idea for everyone like you said manager not just students but all tenants to take that. Yep. So, at this time we're going to move on but we're going to move on to I'm going to stop the share for now. Once I figure out how to do that. And we're going to move on to general public comment or public comment on what we've been discussing. And see if anyone's got any comments on what we've been discussing before we go back to discussing language that we haven't gotten to yet. So right now if you'd like to make a comment for up to three minutes please raise your hand and I will recognize you in turn and Athena will be the one that helps us get you so you can make your comment so we're not a shepherd please unmute yourself, state your name where you live and make your comment. Hi this is run out of shepherd I live in Amherst. I was composing an email so I'm just going to read from it and I'll send it. Could a temporary permit be issued until requirements are met so landlords especially small landlords don't lose rental income while completing obi bureaucracy. Please remove inspection requirements for every move out it is impractical and expensive at move out places get cleaned and repaired especially if their security deposit involved. Even yearly is a meted cost in a region where people move a lot. We can have yearly tenant changes. Rent will be higher morning. And there will be more convenience to landlords and tenants landlords would penalize people who just want to rent for a year personally, I myself would try to get people who wants to stay for several years, and those who just want to stay for a year my, you know, well, not be chosen. The properties don't get all units inspected, but they still charge a higher rent than me for example, they're benefiting from not paying for an inspection that I must pay. That's unfair. Thank you. Mandy. Maybe you're muted. muted. I completely forgot I muted myself so thank you for not for your comments. And then we're going to recognize pro and Nathan Marguerite please unmute yourself, state your name where you live and make your comment. Can unmute myself. We can hear you now. Oh, can you hear me because nothing came up so we live at 65 brand would drive we've lived here for a long time, almost 30 years. John knows us pretty well so does Pat. Pam Rooney and Jennifer. And I've recently had contact with Rob Morris and a couple of issues that I really want to know. You can give us some clarification because I really speak on behalf of a lot of people in our neighborhood really feel that we've been let down and neglected by the town. Just a general question is, Rob, you mentioned they're like 5000 licenses that are issued on these all for rentals. Can you possibly give me a breakdown in terms of which are student houses and packed. The Angeles mentioned family houses. So can you give me some kind of ratio there. Question for land I want you to finish your comment we generally don't answer the comments during public comment. We may be able to get those answers when we go back to full discussion. Appreciate enough to say, please. I just have one other comment and that is, we speak about a parking plan. I also have sent photographs in of students, the houses between Kingman and Jason court, who are in violation of the parking plan they might have four cars that are allowed in the driveway according to the parking plan they have up to five and six. And they can have between four and five parked in the road. So I have a question about the parking plan requirements and violations associated with that. Yes, yes, because they're not being enforced. So how I'm, I'm curious about why aren't they being enforced. Okay. Any other comments per land. No, that's it. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for the forum. Thank you so much for your comments today for land and for coming and for an audit for coming with that we are going to close public comment for this time. And we are going to go back to language looking at and I know, let me share my screen again. I know we're not going to get through it all today. So I would like to hear from the committee whether they want to talk about use display and consent. The orange parts I just scrolled through or the violations enforcement and penalties for the next 15 minutes or so. I tend to go to violations, but yeah, yeah, no. Because that's what people were expecting. So violations enforcement and penalties violation will do these by those three sections violations first. Before I talk about that temporary permit was discussed there is a provision in the first section we talked about today, the issuance or denial permits that allows for temporary permits to be issued. So I, I just wanted to say that we did talk about move out inspections a little bit we'll see what the next draft looks like. Those are the only ones that I can answer at this point that that I'll do during this discussion violations I tried to make this equivalent to what we have now, because that's what Rob said he thought he wanted. So, Pam on violations. Sure. And in number one, I mean a one a failure to comply with any requirement with this bylaw I would like to also add or zoning bylaws. So Rob. Have we included enough in this bylaw that any zoning bylaw requirement failure would constitute a failure to require to comply with this bylaw. I think it does. And we're heading that way. We are having our discussions. And I think we could make sure that that works in a but I was, I was actually more concerned about C, because if there's, you know, each condition of the bylaw, the way we've been talking about making it capture everything possible. We, we lose that, you know the multiple violations we lose that when with with it written like this connected to the bylaw so, you know, if more than one has occurred, each shall be considered a separate offense, you know, without it specifying of the bylaw. But I think the other sections were okay. So Rob, you would do that. I would. Okay. And you believe that we do not need to add this bylaw or zoning bylaw shall constitute because you believe the zoning bylaws already well enough incorporated into needing to be complied with under this bylaw that not complying with the zoning bylaw would constitute a failure to comply with this bylaw. Any bylaw regulation state or local code, we've included everything that we're aware of. Where do we say that we were just looking at inspections. Yeah, I got to find it in the inspection somewhere. So I don't actually know what was it was under this. Was it this one. All the structure complies with the provisions of this bylaw and all other applicable codes or bylaws so that will that's to issue the permit. Let's see. We talked about it somewhere. Oh inspection standards. This one this one. We talked about it law and regulation compliance all rental units and rooming units regulated here under shall comply with all applicable local bylaws and regulations as well as all state laws and health building and fire codes. So I think that's where it is that we've brought in those zoning bylaws into, if you don't comply with this. You don't. You don't get your permit. You violated this bylaw, because you violated the permit issuance. Would people be more comfortable putting or zoning bylaw in here of this or other of other local. I mean you have to either sort of list them all or not list them. It, which is why I think I tried to put that local laws and regulations up there. That was I think my way of attempting to pull it in. I'm okay for now. Yeah. Any comments on the violations section. We'll move on to penalties. So monetary penalties are up above that's the 300. Actually, I do. Sorry, I forgot my hand. Yeah, but it's back up again. In that same. In that same a one a. I feel like we should say something because it's the very first time we're talking about violations. And add the words and may result in suspension of rental permit. So non-monetary penis penalties is suspension down here. Are you trying to. I'm just trying to make that as a more blanket statement. It seems like that it's just a general statement about violations. And then, and then we get into details below, but it, but I think it'd be smart to put the warning in there. Right now they, nobody's nobody's scared about losing their rental permit. Oh, they're not, they're not even getting a rental permit. So they're definitely not scared. Thoughts from others. We just put it in that we can always take it out. Pat. I don't think it should go there. I don't think it could hurt. I mean, that's there in including suspension of a permit. So I'll say I worry by pulling out one thing and not all the others. And I guess that's why I hesitate to just mention suspension. Because I worry if you just mentioned suspension in here. What do you know, order to remedy problem property designation. You know, person in charge appointment order to vacate how do they fall within this too and so I just get concerned of mixing the two sections, or putting only some as specific mentions in, which is why I hesitate to put it in. Jennifer. No, I'm taking my hand. Let's let's go for now. Yeah, I may come back to it. The other the other items are violations that could result also in loss of a permit. And so it's, you know, so they're all penalties suspension is a penalty for violating something. Notice of violation is a penalty that the order to remedy is the actual penalty not the notes of violation right. Monetary penalties are penalties problem property designation is a penalty because it comes with additional requirements potentially appointing a person in charge, they're all penalties for violations. So let's talk penalties monetary or up above $300 certain people to enforce. I trust Rob will tell me at some point if I didn't include the right people. I can page up there people would like to see who are the non criminal enforcements we've left criminal in there for now. And then there's the rest the notice of violation order to remedy problem property designation suspension revocation denial requirement to appoint a person in charge the order to vacate and then the court relief. We'll start with that suspension and revocation procedures showed up below. So thoughts on the penalties have we included all of them. And stuff Pam. Um, I would, I would like to consider adding something under 90. Between one and two. So I'm calling it one a. Because you're talking about between those two so inserting inserting a new one. So that was that the rental permit should be suspended whenever two or more zoning offenses see section blah, blah, blah, occur within any four year period that period beginning to the date of first enforcement notice, or final determination in favor of the town. You've got the language somewhere below I believe I saw. I did I it's on it's on the last page I took it in. Right. And you wanted a shell. Um, yeah, thoughts on a shall suspend for two zoning violations in four years. And you were thinking is that suspend or deny renewal. The rental permit shall be suspended or denied. Well, a suspension means that there's a period of time. Remedies can be made. But there's typically a time period associated with it. It's lost of income because they, you know, they have not maintained their unit. So here's the effect of suspension revocation or denial under a suspension. So, so this only includes a suspension but it would be under them. You have to vacate the unit. And so I worry about two zoning violations and four years suspending. I think this is part of what Rob said why we don't suspend more often if you if you have to vacate the unit and you suspend in January. Where do the residents go. And that zoning violation may not be any fault of the residents versus denial. Well, one of the zoning offenses is over occupancy, because that comes straight out of the, that's come straight out of the zoning by law. Right, but you'd be kicking all six out, not just the two over occupancy with a suspension. John. And other zoning violation is, you know, a car on the lawn. This seems pretty harsh for that. Guess, guess what really bothers most of the neighbors. Yeah, I know. I hear, I hear from us. That is the biggest complaint in terms of disturbing the peace and quiet of someone's, you know, peaceful use of their home and property. So, yeah, I, I worry though, that we begin treating your economic ability to own a home differently if you don't have that economic ability and you're renting, and therefore you have the potential to lose your home, because your landlord doesn't put a parking plan in or doesn't do, you know, because zoning violations are a lot. Right, it's not necessarily the tenant that's violating it. It might be the landlord through no fault of the tenants. You know, the landlord didn't maintain the fire safety system and so now the tenants have lost their home. And it wasn't even during your tendency that that happened. Right. You've got your, your lease signed for the next year, and the prior tenant did something and now you don't have a home. Whereas if that happened in a place where you owned your home, you wouldn't be kicked out. And so I just worry about the effect of kicking tenants out of homes when it may not even be their fault for X violation or Y violation. I'm not sure I understand why the future tenant would be affected by the previous tenant. But if it's every four years, if I, if I've signed a lease, you know, we heard these leases are signed in January, December, whatever for the next year that starts July one or June one. And the zoning violation, the second zoning violation happens in May. You've just lost your home two days beforehand. And now you can't occupy because suspension is vacated and secured. Right. I, I understand Rob's concern about suspensions and so I worry about, I worry that worried that we have absolutely no teeth then besides, besides some, some finds that many multiple land landlord landlord with scoff at and not do what we want. Jennifer. I mean, could it be tied to, to renewal, you know, when it's at the end of the lease, I think they couldn't be some suspension when issuing the new lease so that the current tenants aren't penalized assuming it's obviously not a life safety issue. Yeah. So, I'm going to, I'm going to drop this for now but I think when we talk about the signing point. There, there will be some actions that will result in loss of a permit potentially, and whether it's a zoning transgression or, you know, health and safety one. I think they, I think they both carry some weight and need to be acknowledged so maybe we don't need to specifically call out the zoning, the one here. I think it's used fairly successfully in state college it comes straight from their regulations and that regulations come straight from their bylaw. So, I may come back to it again if it doesn't feel like the rest of it holding together well enough. Yeah, and, you know, I want to bow to her land, because I know how egregious the parking situation can be in her neighborhood, but I really am and finding some of this conversation. Meaning to renters and ignoring impact on renters. And we want to have teeth in our bylaws we want to hurt and we want to scare landlords scoff at us. What does that have to do with vacating for people or five people who are living in a building. Why do you think there isn't enough structure about suspension for health and safety, but I just find some of this appalling I just have to say that. Jennifer. So we're talking, we're also talking about health and safety that I mean, we are talking about health and safety. So I'm just, I guess my question was just because I'm not saying we need to be suspending suspending permits here and there. But, you know, I was really upset when I read, you know, reading those tenant surveys that there are students paying a lot of money to live in some pretty bad places. And, you know, I know like, and I maybe I'm asking to Robin and john from the research I've done in places like state college or Newark Delaware they do suspend permit. And I'm not saying has to be done in the middle of a lease for your displacing tenant. That's why I was thinking if we were going to look at something like that. Maybe it's when they, the landlord wants to, you know, issue a new lease. It's just that, you know, do we, we just want to make sure we have the team that people comply for health and safety reasons. I mean there's. So that's first and foremost, you know what that, you know, I know somebody was doing some research was taken. Yeah, so again just I know that in state college they do will deny a rental permit. The landlord has a lot of violations and they are they are healthy and safety usually, you know, they're, they're not, you know, I don't know because you didn't, you know, fix your banister. So just what, and I can and I, and some of the body, the financial penalties, I think are chopped up to the cost of doing business. So I think we're just saying what penalty can there be for a property owner, and we're just as John and Rob have said, it's just the minority, a few that are egregious kind of scoffals scoff laws, but there are some pretty dismal rental properties out there. And some of them are, you know, the same, you know, property owners are responsible for it. So just what can we do to make sure we have some teeth. I think that's what Pam's question was getting at. We're not looking to get tenants that's that's not what anyone has in mind, or is intending to do. I want to take my time to comment before I go back to Pam. I appreciate that Jennifer. But then we have to be really careful about the wording and what when a suspension is quote, we're wired versus the end of a long system getting to there. Which is part of the concern I've got about Pam your requested addition and wording to violations and now you've got a suspension you have to suspend it. I look at C problem property designation and of course we've left a lot of this up to the regulations which we haven't talked about them. And that's where I believe the point system may come in. Working your way to that suspension. You know, and maybe we have to add that somewhere in there but that's where I see us working towards that suspension or mainly the denial of a permit that getting that problem property designation because of X, Y or Z. And that gives that warning along with all of the fines to hey, you're probably not and that then also potentially gives the warning to any person who may be thinking of signing a lease for that property, or for that dwelling unit. Like, hey, you're going to sign this but look they're at nine points or whatever and one more. And they're not getting the permit for you to occupy that unit come June. You know, I think we really need to think closely about what what leads to a suspension or denying of a permit because I don't want to see tenants kicked out of their units. Without any notice for something that is not an egregious health and safety violation. And I know we disagree on whether over occupancy is but I'm not sure parking is egregious enough to kick tenants out. That's where I am I just don't know. And so I'm, I'm, I guess more hesitant to add mandatory suspension requirements for, for various for wide ranging violations when you hit a certain number violations instead of mandating that problem property designation that would then potentially give warning to people. It might take longer to fix them but that's where I stand at this point, Pam and then Jennifer. Yeah, thanks. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to be offensive. But I did, I did want and I and I don't think that good feedback, having having that statement in this section doesn't doesn't work anyway. We can cover something like this we can cover it in any kind of point system that we want to apply it certainly would be in most cases, definitely a, a buildup of point. And again we're talking about very few but this is something that the other. For instance, for state college, state college wrote their bylaw regular and regulations 40 years ago, Amherst is just getting to this point now where we have the off campus student population has now reached about 18,000 students that can't be accommodated on campus. And we have finally, I think, reached a tipping point where it is starting to just morph across town and become very uncomfortable. So this is, this is way late. This bylaw itself is, you know, years, years too late, it should have been in place as, you know, the ball started rolling. That said, I'm going to let, let's forget about the two, the two strikes and you're out. It should be a process. There, there should be some penalty though for zoning violations, perhaps handled however we want to handle them. So thank you. Yeah, third bite, you know, sidetracked this conversation for so long. It's not a sidetrack, Pam. Jennifer then john. Yeah, and again just, I'm really not saying this to be, I'm saying this in all sincerity. And I know john and Rob spent a lot of time on the street, thank you. But like, if you just take a walk over to Phillip Street, and you can see what terrible conditions the students are living in it's so I'm just saying there's some, there are, you know, I know, you know, I'm not trying to be dramatic, but when I read some of the, the tenant and they tended to be student tenants when they put their age 18 to 29 on the forms. And they were talking about some of the conditions they were living in and again I it's not the majority by any means it's a small and, and they tend to be the properties that john spends a lot of time with, but there really are some properties that, you know, you shudder to think people are living inside them. And so that I really would say take, you know, sometimes just walk over to Phillip Street and just get a sense of what they look like and what we're talking about. Thanks. John. Yeah, I don't want to be misinterpreted here I think that suspension of permits is probably a good thing my issue previously was that you were calling out zoning violations and there, there aren't that many of them. I've actually got documentation about, you know, the complaints and violations that we deal with and how many of them are sanitary and how many of them are building code and how many of them are zoning I don't have that in front of me because I'm, you know, at home but I'm happy to share that with the group zoning violations aren't that, you know, there's just not enough of them, and something like Phillip Street you're right it's it's a, it's a whole, but those aren't zoning violations. You're not going to, you know, you're not going to remove his permit for that. How about some health and safety stuff sure. It is 625. I haven't heard anything about the other sections in this one the court relief and all of that. We did not get to, I'm going to make a note here that we haven't reviewed anything past this part or the consent sections, because we do have to move on to the rest of our agenda today. And so, I think we've covered a lot, we have a lot more to cover appeals are in there as we go through, and then the discussion about the potential regulations and point system and whether that point system goes into a bylaw or regulations. I also know that we did not figure out a way to put incentives into this. Although the incentives kind of show up in that inspections to five things like that for no violations and stuff. There, there needs to be further discussion about the potential for putting incentives into the bylaw and then there needs to be discussion about that orange section we didn't get to which is tenant notification and consent issues about how to get in for inspections and stuff. I think retaliation come languages in there too. So we will try we will get to that before we move on in our work plan to other sections, but it may take two or three meetings to get to that. And I'll explain that now before we go on to our next part which was outreach but the reason it is because next meeting announcements and next schedule meeting we have flood maps and we will be dealing with flood maps because we do have our letter of final registration. So our hearing was was postponed or or continued till the next meeting our September meeting. And so we will be dealing substantively with flood maps and all of that that goes along with it and all of the bylaws with that. We might take the whole meeting. So I don't know whether we'll get to rental registration next meeting or not depending on how long it takes us to get through all of our flood map referrals and the hearings for next meeting. So, I'll put it on the agenda, but it is after flood maps and everything with flood maps is done. Flood maps has a drop dead deadline for passage under federal law and federal regulation. So we, we have to deal with that. Whereas this one, we have our referral by December 31 if we don't make that date, we're going to be close, right. And so, but flood maps needs to outlet. So with that, I want to thank everyone for the conversation today if we have time and I don't know whether people have time to stay. I'll just talk a little bit more about outreach she missed the last meeting without reach so that's why I put it back on this one. She's looking surprised because she didn't know she wanted to talk about it. But she has some questions about outreach that that that that we kind of discussed last meeting but I think hearing her point of view might be good. But if we don't have enough time to stay. We, I can update her on where that was last meeting. Pam. Yeah, before, before we sign off, I just wanted to offer a word to john and Rob. We were notified of the, the first amendment audit that apparently took place and just know that you have our support because it's just really egregious. It's just really awful to see. You know, you guys are working really hard. You're very diligent, you're very conscientious, and I have scum scum like people do that kind of thing is just really awful. Thank you for those comments Pam. You've got our support. And all. You know, we respect what you're doing you work really hard and yes. It's hard to deal with things like that. So thank you for all you do to us. Anyone else with comments. I'd never heard of first amendment audit. So the audit was traumatic but the response from all across the United States is absolutely appalling and and that's, and it just is non stop. Oh, Oh, Oh, that's terrible. Yeah, I'd never heard of it before either. How do we know those are like legit people like anyone who is seeing this, like any of us, and we tend to be very balanced fair. We can see how egregious the way the interviewing and all was done so I just feel like and I was looking at some of like got 40,000 views and all but there are ways to plan bots and all of that to increase the number of views and to have comments from people and people, you know, like, not real people and stuff so I am, you know, I think the communities with you and I hope you will not, you know, be any attention to it and it's hard not to pay attention it was hard for me not to pay attention to it but I had to stop I'm like, this is not worth engaging with. I probably had 100 phone messages and you know I listened to four of them and then I got the gist of it. But the same with emails you know we had 100 emails. I didn't know that. Oh yeah. And you know town hall we probably had 600 phone calls to town hall it was it was absolutely overwhelming and totally traumatizing. Are you getting support from. We're going to have a meeting and then I'm reaching out to the EAPs because I. I'm hurting from this. Sorry. Sorry. We'll know that we respect everything that you guys do. And do support you. Thank you. And with that, are people ready wanting to talk about outreach or should we just conclude our meeting and be done at 630 I'm seeing nods to potentially concluding Shalini Shalini. I mean, maybe you can but I think because we have a we may potentially have a gap because of the flood maps thing and it might be good to kind of actually use this time to then do something with the data so I just want and because we can just spend five minutes maybe just to tell me like what are we doing with the data. And if there's already a plan then everyone can go and money money Joe you can just tell me but I will summarize and we'll try to be out here out of here in the next five minutes but Robin john thank you you don't have to sit. Thank you so much for all of your help with this and all of your input and for getting through a very tough time at this point. Thank you. To summarize where we were last week we talked about what to do with the data we did not talk about what we didn't get to much more of what other outreach we need to do. Other than we need another forum, public forum, public community input that but that would probably not happen before October, because it might be good to have a very good working draft that we've discussed, so that we can hear some comments on the actual draft. So we haven't said that day yet but but what the committee itself, last week thought was that the reports that were pulled might be good enough. We can certainly have that conversation again which is, you know, but the committee was in some sort of agreement that they might be good enough such that the time spent. Compiling any other further summary might not be the best use of any one committee members time. If I haven't summarized that correctly committee please correct me. But obviously you were not at that meeting Shalini. So, so that's another reason this was on here. When I got your email, so that we could hear your opinion and maybe it will change other people's thoughts. But that's sort of what we ended up with on our end, while also still waiting for the UMass data from the actual forum, we obviously do not have their review of the community click thing yet. We're still working on that, but Shalini. Yeah, I so my work has been in qualitative research and like looking at data like this. And it's always surprising to see what surfaces when we look at it, and I'm not saying in this data we will find something, but since it's the first time. I, I think it's, it would be important to do it and since no one else and since I'm really interested in doing it, you know, just seeing what because we have made that effort so the two pieces to it like what do we looking at it systematically rather than which is what the brain does it will gravitate towards comments that you know that we are familiar with or we. Like all of us will pick certain comments so it does make sense to kind of create you know under inspection so what I was thinking like inspection related comments or quality of our zoning or you know like have some sort of a schema where we have the different comments and then let that and hopefully and maybe we're already discussing those things, but maybe there'll be something that surfaces that we have not yet included in our discussion and then that can inform our bylaw discussion and then secondly I think it's also good to share with the community that this is the data that has been collected and this is what we're doing with it. Um, so it will so you could really go in and find like trends like the tenants, this is a recurring theme. Right. I was trying to do that by hand, like right ahead and then anyway that's where I left off on data but so that would be really helpful to see what we can say is recurring theme in each of the categories. Right. And then the other thing is like in a longer term basis like I reached out I haven't heard from Tony but if he could get students and actually today at Hampshire college the opening I was there and I happened to speak to two kids and young people, not kids young people, and one of them was interested in doing this data analysis for us and like even if I could work with the person and they do the detailed work and like you know we give them a letter saying that oh this student worked for the town of Amherst you know. As an internship almost. Yeah and they get to show it on the resume they have great experience looking at the different points of view how decisions are made when they're competing interests or competing points of view and how to include all of that. And so I think it can be a very good educational experience but I'll keep trying to recruit students for our committee for this project and other projects. Thank you. So how do we, how do we share the feedback that we got how do we actually do we know what form we can ultimately try to share with the public, you know with just like engage Amherst is the link. Is there a, you know, engage Amherst survey response summary or something like that. The documents that you guys also were in the packet for the last meeting, that's where they're found right now. We don't have a page to collate everything yet. I'll put it back on my follow up to do list. But anything compiled under something like this could go on that page, it would also go in a packet of ours it would probably go in the console packet at some point. And could potentially would be able to be linked to from the engage Amherst page so there's ways to get it out there once it's done. Just like when we do get the final thing from UMass on how the community click with the likes dislikes that will go certainly in our packet and then when we get this page up, which I'll follow up on this week. And go there too. So what I'm hearing is Shalini, if you were willing to do the work this committee would appreciate something like that. The one thing I do have to caution because Dave so that could not attend today's meeting is at this point we can't promise any formal, you know, anything employee related or formal internship related right because that that's not something that the council can ever promise anything without any type of approvals or anything. But if students are certainly willing to work with you to do that without any of those promises, you know, obviously you're allowed to write any recommendations you want with the work you've done. But why don't you talk to Dave. CC me on that email but talk to Dave about what might be possible from that sort of formalization point, whether or not it includes pay. He might have better ideas as to what needs done to potentially formalize or something. What is the official language that we can use to reach out and it's the same language and letter we send out to all the colleges. And actually Paul was there when I was having this conversation and I did confirm is it okay like we can write a letter and all I said, yeah, absolutely. I will reach out to Dave to get that letter and then I can send it formally maybe to Hampshire College Amherst and and at this point I would say an analysis goal would be whenever we have the next community forum. That might be too quick, even though we're looking at two months from now or so but it still might be too quick I just don't know we have not closed this formal survey. The meetings are still coming in. The committee two weeks ago decided to keep it open at least a little longer through move in and a little beyond moving to see now that students are coming back, and others are coming in, and our town is repopulating. If we get another surge of responses before we close out the survey completely. Okay, anything else before I adjourn the meeting. It's going to be a full agenda next week, which we won't get to everything don't freak when you see it. Two weeks not one week, two weeks yes two weeks but I put it all on in case flood maps goes much more quickly than I expect I want us to be able to use it anytime we've got so you'll see it but anything like that with that we're adjourned at 639pm thank you all for the extra time. I didn't see your hand up, I didn't see your hand up sorry, I'll withdraw the journal, I will withdraw the adjournment till I hear from Pam sorry I didn't see your hand up. Right. Sorry, it has to do with just thinking again about the writing process of this bylaw. So, you know, I guess we just can go in there and do some of our own edits again and then share them with you directly. So, so Pam, if you want, I'll try to get this edited sooner and do what I did last time for you, but and then put a final one out, or you can take what we did today and just send me potential options for me to address if that would be. I don't intend on doing anything to what you did to the regulation section at all. We'll get to that when we have something. Yeah, specifically on the agenda with that. Okay. Any other questions. The adjournment is 640 Athena, thank you for being patient. Thanks, thank you Athena. Welcome back Athena. Thanks.