 We are calling to order the second meeting of the artificial turf study committee of Arlington the meeting on December 12th 2023 at 5 p.m. I think usually we do we start off by just doing the roll call see who's here which we have to do because it's a all virtual meeting we have to do the actual roll so no show of hands just wait for your name so Natasha would you do that? Yes uh Mike guilds game? Yes present. Leslie mayor? Here. Joe Barr? Here. Jill? Present. Natasha here. Marvin not quite yet. Jim? Detilio? Here. Present. David Morgan? I'm here. And Joe Conley? Here. Hey we record them. So the first order of business is acceptance of the meeting minutes and I want to thank Natasha for putting those together very quickly um recording in progress and actually we'll see a message about a recording in progress we'll address that in a second but probably should start with the meeting minutes and then I'll maybe move something around on the agenda so we can address sort of public public input and recording and all this all these related issues going forward but first things first why don't we start with the meeting minutes I hope everyone had a chance to look at them does anyone have any edits uh that they would like to make or recommend if not I'll entertain a motion I'll make a motion to approve the minutes is there a second? Second. Second. Okay um so we'll do the roll uh Mike? Yes. Leslie? Yes. Joe? Barr? Yep. Jill? Yep. Natasha? Yes. Marvin I don't see him yet uh Jim? Yes. Okay. That's unanimous um so um the next item is correspondence received but to some degree that relates a little bit to item five discussion methods for public input so I'll start on two but we may move up five and sort of talk about the two of them together uh because I think it's just good to talk about sort of ground rules for the committee going forward um so uh in terms of correspondence received uh what Natasha and I talked about and I what she and what you ended up getting with the copied agenda that you received in advance of this meeting was a copy of the chat anything that was posted publicly in the chat um was included as part of um you know public comment received basically um and uh I think going forward though we'd like to have a more formal process for receiving public comment and I've received a few inquiries and I think Natasha's received a few inquiries about how best people can or what's the best way people can uh reach out to us with with their comments and with their uh if they want to you know make recommendations to us about research paths or anything they want to sort of weigh in on which I believe the committee was open to the idea of people making written submissions but not necessarily having a designated spot in each meeting for public comment um so I think talking to Natasha one of the ideas we wanted to propose was that people could submit anything they wanted at any time obviously shorter is better sending us a you know 17 page you know letter is not going to be as effective as sending us you know a one page letter that really makes your points pretty succinctly but um but you know that's up to people or for the moment we'll sort of say there are no no limits to what people can send us though we'd hope they'd be succinct but if they want to send it to us and have it included with uh as correspondence attached to our next meeting agenda they need just you know we'll we'll let people know what our meeting schedule is ahead of time when we're going to meet the next time and so the idea would be that if we're saying for example we're going to meet next Tuesday and Natasha's goal is to goal and the requirement is to post it by you know two business days before but you know that she received it before that postings do so you know if it's if we're having a Tuesday meeting she should get it by you know I'd say at the latest Friday morning at nine o'clock you know realistically probably better to get it Thursday you know five by five o'clock otherwise it will be provided but it just won't be until the next meeting although I can't stop a member of the public from submitting a testimony or or or a public comment to each of us individually I would strongly urge that the better system is to just send it to Natasha and me who will who will distribute it to the group but just in a more orderly manner that's you know sort of in a way that follows a schedule and doesn't overwhelm our inboxes I know I'm not going to be able to stop people from you know reaching out to each one of us you know in a blast email but I think we'd all prefer it to be a little more streamlined and in a related point um I think we've talked about I think last meeting there was sort of a general consensus that there would be potentially down the road opportunities for community comment community forum community input you know maybe we might even have towards the towards the end of our process a meeting where it's all a whole meeting of public input but in the short term we would not have a designated public comment period but we would allow these these opportunities to submit public comment and for the moment I've decided on consultation with Natasha but I'm you know obviously interested to hear what the rest of you think but I have decided that I think I will leave the chat open for now um you know I think it was somewhat helpful to see what some people offered in the in the in the chat last time I am conflicted a bit because if this were an in-person meeting uh you know it's the somebody said to me once you know comments in the chat is the equivalent of somebody you know yelling at you while you're having a meeting which this were an in-person meeting that wouldn't happen but obviously it isn't an in-person meeting and there is an opportunity to comment and I think if it's done in a reasonable way we should allow it at least initially um and I think it was done in a reasonable way the first meeting but you know I think the caveat is this is subject to reevaluation as we go along so for the moment I'm inclined to leave the chat open to leave this other avenue for public written public comment and down the road to have a more formal meeting where we receive you know in you know verbal public comment are people generally comfortable with that if not you know I'm I'm open to all alternative viewpoints Michael yeah I think it's uh it's a good idea I think to let people express themselves their opinions through the chat um and we'll see how it goes I couldn't have said it better we'll see how it goes uh so far so good um and we'll see how it goes I think related to that is just two things I want to say and I do want to say welcome Marvin good to have you here um and just acknowledging Marvin Lewitton to join us um in that vein also the issue of um recording so uh recording and open meetings so uh the open meeting law is pretty clear on this if you there's a section that's specifically on the point of recordings and open meetings and the attorney general's open meeting law guides says any member of the public may make an audio or video recording of an open session of a public meeting however a member of the public who wishes to record a meeting must first notify the chair and must comply with reasonable requirements regarding audio or video equipment established by the chair so as not to interfere with the meeting and the chair is required to inform other attendees of any such recording at the beginning of the meeting and if obviously people arrive later in the meeting you make them aware later in the meeting so uh with technology it's wonderful uh we are recording the meeting so anytime you join the meeting you know it's being recorded because there's a prompt um there was a request to record the meeting by uh ACMI uh but i think what we're just going to do is i think we're going to record the meeting ourselves i think if there's multiple requests to record the meeting i think there's obviously an interest in having our meetings recorded and if that's the case i think we'll just passion i decided we just make it easier and everyone we would record the meeting posted on our posted on our site you know and and it would be there as a record and if we're going to be on that road i think it's just easier and better for all if we just do it ourselves are people comfortable with that i mean the reality is people are going to record us regardless uh as long as they give us the heads up so why not just uh why not just do it ourselves i guess okay so for that reason you see we are recording this meeting and you all hit the prompt uh if you agreed so um you know we'll obviously still be taking many meeting minutes but just so everyone's aware both on the committee and members of the public we are recording the meeting uh open meeting just a couple of quick comments so um you know we have to be careful as any public body and we are a public body that um you know we don't uh there's a fine line under the open meeting law between sort of sending out agendas and uh you know communicating sort of business items to the group and um engaging in what might be called a deliberation um and so anytime you're saying an email to the whole committee that's constitutes at least a quorum of the committee you could run into some issues so before we go too far down the road with this committee i'd say um if there is something you want to share with the group with the committee and there is something uh you know a study you want to make us aware of a particular presentation i would probably think the better way to do it is to send it to natash and me and we can send it out as sort of part of you know our committee communications you know included as one of the items with the agendas in the minutes um i think it's just better and it avoids you know someone sending an email then someone commenting on that then someone commented in the comment and next thing you know you're the horse is out of the barn and you're having a full flinch deliberation whether you intended to or not so um i'd really like to avoid open meeting violations uh and and stick to the spirit of the law i think that's the best way to do it um is everyone okay with everything i've said so far okay natash i can't remember if there's any other ground rules i mentioned that we should get out of the way before we jump into the meat of this meeting but i i think that's kind of the most important stuff um now i'm excited to actually talk about next item on the agenda which going backwards now uh would be item three discussion of establishment of working groups so natash i've i've sort of been yammering on about things do you maybe want to mention a little bit about our because i think our last meeting you said um you gave sort of a thumbs up to natash and me having sort of a discussion about some possibilities and some pathways to streamline the discussion at this meeting for for our next steps and um natash do you want to say what our thoughts were in that meeting yeah so i think um you know really to get this work done i think we are all sort of in agreement that we probably need to break it up into subcommittees and so it really is going to work i don't want to call them subcommittees but more like working groups and so it's really going to come down to sort of trying to put items into a bucket and um you know jim and i have sort of gone back and forth and thought you know maybe um you know three four types of of subcommittees um and smaller groups working on them and so just for you know example um you know we've got the health issue we've got safety issues we've got environmental issues um there's definitely going to be overlap in some of these things but i do think that they all deserve their own official deep dive into um those items i think that's really what town meeting um did and so i don't know what others sort of think and then the other piece of that will be sort of drilling down under health what exactly we want to look at what exactly under um environmental what exactly under safety and i think you know i heard last week at our meeting uh there was also a mention about you know economic you know responsibility and what have you you know what what the budget's gonna look like and i think i'm not entirely sure if that fits into all of buckets or and i'm calling them buckets and i mean groups um or if it's going to mean that they it's its own so i guess that's sort of up for discussion what do and jim i don't want to take over but um you know what what does the group sort of think about that um open meeting law the way that it it seems like it would pertain to this um the work if if we're doing smaller working groups um and there's three or less members in them it's not subjected subjected to uh open meeting law requirements that being said um i think if we were to work in those smaller groups the idea would be that we're able to work on these topics and bring it back as a whole obviously to present to to everyone um you know on this on the committee we can talk about that and then um as jim had mentioned it might even be you know after we've talked and decided we agree with this or not or what have you that it's opened up for um some sort of additional public comment um it just seems like there's a lot of material and a lot of information that needs to be um looked into and so you know i think it sort of makes sense uh to to sort of work in those um smaller groups but i want to open it up to to you guys and see what you think and jim let me um hang on one second let me unmute you i'm sorry sorry sorry sorry technology right it's it's great when it's great and it's okay jim you sorry yeah i won't i won't leave myself again i guess um and before i you know just to put a fine point up before i go to michael who raised his hand um you know the idea of these working groups is uh you know my my vision is once they're formed i mean there's a report back every meeting you know it's a standing item on the agenda so you know i don't want anyone to think that these groups are going to go off you're never going to hear from them again and then they're going to magically produce recommendations and no one knew where they came from i mean they're they're going to be working continuously in parallel with this committee and and reporting back to this committee around you know if we're meeting weekly then they'll be reporting weekly and some weeks they may have a lot to report and some weeks they may have less but either way there'll be a standing item on the agenda i just think um the ability for them to be smaller and more nimble would also allow you know the very things that i said make this larger committee sort of difficult for us to even engage in like an email dialogue a smaller group that's according to town council if it's less than a quorum you know they can they can maybe engage in some you know back and forth over email as you know as long as you know they're reporting out to us every week and they just have a little more flexibility here which i think is important in our in terms to keep the work moving so we had sort of envisioned three groups i know they're you know some people say health and safety i think marvin may have brought this up at one point that you know health and safety shouldn't be seen as two separate issues but they could be if they were crafted in a certain way but i could also see why they might need to be combined environment you know could be its own but it could also be broken down into you know environment sustainability i guess the most important thing i think at least this agenda item is to get the input from all of you of how do we unpack this you know i think ideally three working groups would be the the right number so we could have you know three three two i'm sorry three two two in terms of numbers but and and attach right there no matter how we break this down there'll be some overlap but but i'm interested now to shut up and sort of hear what everyone has to say so mic you you wanted to kick it off sure thanks i just had a thought that would sort of apply to all the working groups and that is that i i know we all want that whatever report comes out of this effort to have integrity and be respected by all parties and i know that given the differences of opinion within the town itself some very strong opinions i think it might help for each of those groups to have some guidelines on what kind of sources they look at rather than i mean there are hundreds out there as we all know there's lots of studies and i think it would be important for us to come up with some guidelines on what kinds of reference material we want to look at and what we want to not we don't necessarily want to include so it you know we at least want to acknowledge the source of the study you know who paid for it what the employment status is that is some of some guidelines so that we're all on the same wavelength in terms of do we have a credible report at the end of the day or are people going to pick it apart in one way or another i think our thought because i think we'd like to meet one more time before the holiday maybe take off the week between between christmas and new year so whether we would i'm getting a little ahead of myself but that we would meet you know next week and that the idea for then take a break and come out again swinging the week of the first week of january but but the idea would be that this meeting was would sort of be the meeting where we would think about what are our subgroups i think the next agenda item is what's in each subgroup and then i think our goal for next week's meeting would be okay we have the subgroups we have the topic areas what's the what's the research what's the focus what's what's the uh what studies are you know is each of these going to be looking at what's some recommendations in terms of the research research paths now that we have the the groups and the topics within them so mike i'm i'm totally with you completely and i think our goal was maybe to have that discussion next week but to get there i think we just need to know what are the groups and what are the areas within the groups yeah okay as long as we get there there must be some other thoughts i'm hoping there are other thoughts marvin i'm sorry one second yeah i kind of reflexively mute myself in meetings just so it's like but no i think that's reasonable but you know i'll just say to to mike's point um you know when i look at stuff i'm trying to look at you know kind of i guess what what you might characterize as you know just reputable sources you know you know peer reviewed you know studies um you know governmental organizations and i'm consciously avoiding what i i would kind of characterize as you know pure advocacy materials because i don't think that's helpful um you know either way um you know i mean i i you know i i have a science background and so i tend to think in those terms and and just you know really looking for what i think are our quality resources so and there's a lot to look at you know out there i mean there's there's epa reports there's um you know there are studies and i know this was an issue for for for jill in the last meeting you know california studies are are nice you know or or texas studies are nice but our do our fields really you know compared to that whereas you know i think some people have referenced there's a marthes veneered study there's a port smith new hampshire study um you know uh those might be those might be particularly interesting for us too i think lexington did some work recently on this so i you know i don't necessarily want to start saying oh we'll do this and not this but i'm totally with you marvin there are i think the best would be a government study you know and then sort of working from there working down from there um and then trying to find things that you know are specific that have particular relevance or saliency to to our our situation in our lexington but in terms of you know sort of that the three headings for our groups um what are your thoughts i mean is it as simple as health safety environment and then we put some nuance behind what each of those means um i mean it could be that simple and certainly that would be the most consistent with our charge from town meaning which was health safety and environment um but i just want to be sure everyone's comfortable with that before we we go down that road as long as we clarify what the difference between health and safety is because yeah i'm not quite sure what we're yeah because you know some people use them synonymously and others um see them as distinct ideas so marvin i know you had some thoughts and sort of right i you know again as industrial hygienists i i tend to look at them as being you know kind of sections of a whole um you know when i go into a workplace i'm not only trying to make sure that people aren't you know affected by you know kind of chemical exposures but aren't getting you know you know lacerations because of unguarded blades or you know slipping on wet floors and to me that's all you know that's kind of part of it so i i you know it's i suppose it's possible to differentiate but to me it's not um i've kind of never kind of approached you know workplaces in that way so i would i you know my my kind of default is just looking at everything that you know could hurt somebody so maybe we want chemical health and safety and then other health and safety so there's a group specifically looking at the chemical piece which has a lot and then things like heat and mental health and everything else is in another health and safety bucket because i think you know burns abrasions things like that that's you know that all falls into kind of the the general health and safety bucket but i you know i'll be i'll be happy to work with whatever you know organizational structure the group decides is appropriate that's fine you know i'm not here to impose my will on anybody so you know um yeah i mean health and safety you know i think there is definitely based on our discussion last week i mean there's there's definitely you know a chemical side right which is where you take the deep dive into things like you know PFAS and and other pieces or just any of the kind of chemicals that you know go into making the product or chemicals that are naturally found in our in our fields versus heat skin abrasions i sort of see those as distinct health and safety issues from the chemical question i mean there's certainly some overlap but you know whether a kid's going to pass out because you know they're in a they're in a heat island is different than whether a kid you know is going to you know get toxic poisoning you know i mean they're both concerns but they're sort of different research paths so we're sort of and this is natural we're sort of heading more into now the fourth discussion which is defining the project scope which is you know well how do we fill in those buckets you know any thoughts further thoughts about sort of health and safety uh environment um because you know we want environment to be independent right we don't want to just be more health and safety discussions you know maybe that's more of a discussion of you know the chemical side of this but maybe it's more you know what's this what's the situation with water runoff what's the situation with um uh you know creating i mean you know like i said it could it could lead into heat island discussion too but you know safety you know environmental issues just related to uh you know sustainability as well which i know came up and i don't know maybe i should stop here did i i'm assuming most of you went to the forum back on i think it was what may second or third but for those who maybe didn't i hope now every circulate the video everyone's either seen the video or seen the forum which you know was very well done obviously sort of even with a two and a half hour forum still only sort of touch the surface of these issues um and so we know it's a good reference point maybe even a starting point but there's more for us to do so you know thoughts on thoughts on you know what i mean we can just go literally one by one and and do this do this do this you know right now sort of what what do people see in the health bucket what do people see in the safety bucket and what do people see in the environment bucket i hate using the term bucket but we'll just do that for now i guess one question jim is is would the environment because there's like sort of impacts on individuals and then there's impacts on sort of the greater world the environment piece include all of the sort of non-individual impacts so like the chemicals you know obviously they have impacts on individual people that's you know the maybe the biggest issue but then there's you know runoff and what happens to those chemicals in the rest of the environment so i just want to make sure that that was my assumption i just want to make sure that that wasn't just yeah and you know by the way i'm not advocating who's been environment can be broadly defined you know what's the impact on the arlington environment there's a feeling of like physical environment but you know what's the environment in terms of ability to use the fields in town you know i mean it's sort of the the structural environment that we're operating in um this is where i defer to you i you know i have i have ideas but i they're sort of very unformed right now and i really defer to the wisdom of this group the collective wisdom yeah i guess just when you said that jim yeah we haven't really talked about sort of the differences in usability as much and i guess you know i'm not sure where that comes in to the discussion or is that maybe the whole group is talking about that once we've sort of done these deep dives in these working groups i'm wondering if um jim maybe instead of us trying to put things into buckets should we just start listing some of the things that are of concern and then i can keep a running list and maybe we can try to figure out where they go i think that's actually a good approach it might might help us move things along in a more effective way so i mean i think we've said heat heat is definitely an issue um so i'm hearing two things heat i'm sorry joe heat in terms of um you know uh the climate and then heat in terms of how it might affect a user yes i think both so so let's go see it it sounds like and again i don't know if Natasha you have that their turf form i just think we're kind of we don't want to read you know what's make it as easy as possible right and so if we if you go through the slides of the turf form which i think again had had pros and cons and conservation experts and rec experts and maybe you looked at that for like what jumps out on each slide and then we could put that into a bucket it's kind of already in buckets instead of us trying to like think oh you know and i don't know it just might be a starting point that we can actually look at something and it might prompt some ideas that we all have but i think trying to just kind of pick out of the blue PFAS or you know toxicity or you know habitat it just might be easier that's all i'm saying just to help get a list going do you have that i mean are you are you looking at the slide right now joe i'm i'm not i mean i can pull it up i don't know Natasha i sent it around yeah it's just it's just a suggestion because why recreate the whale if we already kind of did some of that and you could decide what is relevant and what bucket you want to put it in because it's already kind of in buckets too yeah so if you want i could take a stab at her if someone else wants i'm sorry i had my head down so i don't know if someone else had mike go ahead i'm sorry jim i just took over and i didn't mean to no no no this is a group discussion really in in terms of the environmental bucket if you will or subgroup or whatever you want to call it i think there are a whole bunch of issues such as impact on water quality impact on critters in the water bodies nearby the effect on wildlife and fisheries there's a long list such as that that easily can be listed at least for the environmental issues and i think that i'm so we were saying before that overlaps a lot with public health and related issues but i think that you know i can come up with that list if you'd like of what i think constitutes the issues for environmental concerns so i'm just trying to help us i could use the help so i'm just wondering if we start thinking about like health i'm just i'm just gonna throw out some things and you guys just tell me what you think or what have you so when i think of health i'm thinking of exposure so someone being exposed to you know a chemical and what that might look like so i don't know if that's like risk exposure evaluation um that's one thing that i'm thinking of in terms of health i'm thinking um you know i'm drawing a blank i had all these thoughts and now i'm on the spot i'm sorry um so the type of chemicals and the quantity it's going to be important for exposure and the the duration yes for how long someone might be exposed to something so i think that in and of itself is one aspect of health that i'm really sort of like i think needs to be taken into consideration um so that's one piece under the health that i was sort of thinking i guess another piece that i i don't know where it sort of falls and without signing like a complete idiot i guess i'm wondering if access or accessibility to these types of fields is another piece that we should look at in terms of you know social determinants of health and people being able to access variety of different fields and options and i don't know if that falls under health well you know i don't know where it naturally falls and i know this was a point leslie and made at our last meeting about you know mental behavioral health mental health you know we should not dismiss that as a as something that should be something that we we should look at us just figure out where the right place is but if you know if we're seeing health through the lens of the effect this these fields have on people um in its broadest sense if that's the way we do it then it certainly couldn't naturally go there i wrote down a couple of the things so we have the i think i already mentioned that though in terms of um safety i think about injury so um we probably want to look at you know um and i think this is naturally going to happen like the comparisons of injuries on natural turf versus artificial turf um so i think are we looking at specific injuries or just any injuries um i think any and i think it can grant me but you know the focus i would think would be you know skin abrasions uh you know falls you know you know you're more likely to injure yourself you know on a fall an artificial turf versus regular you know natural turf um you know heat heat injuries uh you know we're we're in that discussion because i i think i could pull up peer reviewed articles that talk about like acl injuries but almost anything i've observed is like a well manicured natural turf field like i think i'd go watch you mass soccer and it's like a field that like literally only plays one soccer game a week and maybe a couple practices so how do we how do we and i maybe this is for next week but how do we find data that doesn't lead to like a conclusion that isn't a reality and so so this might be fine to table until next week but i think that is a key discussion joel and i i don't mean to be dismissing that point it's a hugely relevant point um i think that's our the crux of our our meeting next week right like okay we now know the focus here is but how do we make sure we're reading studies that actually we're going to tell us something valuable as opposed to stating a you know an either an obvious point or stating a point that's kind of you know been heavily weighed in one side or the other right because there is i mean there are studies that have been Leslie you seem to be college level and professional athletes sorry Leslie could you say that again we lost you at a key part there oh i'm sorry um i mean there are studies that have been done that look at the effects on professional athletes we're not talking about professional athletes within the context of the town of arlington and so i'm struggling a little bit with um where where we're going i mean there is you know the science and the chemical composition and effects i mean we can look at but i struggle with bringing it back to the context of the community that we're in you know we're we're not Martha's vineyard worried about drinking water contamination we are concerned about the impacts of these chemicals and some of these fillers on our wetlands for example but so so you know here is is where i i've got this this real um i'm really conflicted in looking at you know the greater global studies and not looking at how this specifically impacts our community we do have two artificial turf fields that have been installed one at the high school one at arlington catholic the rest of our fields playing fields are natural turf um you know i'm i'm i'm throwing this out there as just a completely off off the book thought can we look at do we have statistics or um can we look at the impacts of our artificial turf environments to our natural turf environments locally here and how the two differ and what the issues are with those specific um in those they're more than environments but with those two with those specific cases you know do our own case study of arlington and how artificial turf has impacted arlington i mean i i get again i'm just throwing that out there i think these are relevant questions and and i i think um and i i'm sorry i'm sorry because i keep saying this it's not meant to be dismissive it's it's actually but i think this is all the key key discussion for next week um of you know okay these are the issues we're looking at what are our research pathways here is it is it is it reading studies is it getting first person testimony is it getting you know expert testimony is it is it doing our own reason you know that that's where you know we decide okay we've decided you know the health bucket we're looking at this the safety bucket we're looking at this the the environmental bucket we're looking at this okay now now how do we go about and find relevant information to make some decisions from that um you know and and let me say this is the hardest part of this committee right it's the early steps it's it's the deciding even what you're going to look at um forget about you know how you're going to look at these things but just you know what's the baseline to look at and I think Joe's right the the forum you know lights the way a little bit for us but I just want to be comfortable where we're covering the topics that people feel like we need to cover knowing there might be some overlap but you know I don't I don't want to go too far down any road and then someone says well you know we should have added this here and you know it's now we're too far down the road but maybe that should have been part of you know the environmental piece or maybe that should have been part of the health and safety piece um so Natasha I think you would sort of laid out the potential I think you'd started with the health the health you moved on to the safety I don't know if you were still filling that in a little bit yeah so um in terms of safety I was looking at sort of the the injury piece I think I already mentioned that I don't know if materials comes into play here um in terms of I mean I think in some level it might be the the chemical piece here like it it kind of might be this intersect intersection I'm just going to give the examples that I'm thinking and then let's go back because I don't know how else to do it um in terms of environmental you know some of the things that had been mentioned you know obviously um wildlife um groundwater or water quality if that's you know a concern um you know climate you know run off run off yeah yep um so those are just some of the things and I I did take some and some of the other pieces are like okay you know are we looking at fertilizers are we looking at pesticides are we looking at you know and I think that all kind of falls under chemical anyway um you know I think I did try and go through the um artificial turf forum to sort of take a look at some of those categories um and and that's sort of just what I jotted down um briefly but maybe we can circle back to other people have thoughts on what should be included in health um well so one I mean sorry I don't mean to monopolize the discussion um I mean one area that the forum covered a little bit and it doesn't you know perfectly fit within health safety environment but I think it's something we all agree is sort of in there implicitly if not explicitly is um you know sustainability is one piece of it but also maintenance um which you know brings in an economic argument too but um you know maintenance what what you know there's definitely there was a big debate at that forum of you know someone it was never resolved it was a point of contention uh do you need to water artificial turf there were those who said you most definitely do and there were others who said that's completely false uh you don't need to water artificial turf I think that's important and maybe it's part of the environmental part but you know what it takes to maintain these fields not just the costs but the the efforts I think is gotta be a relevant piece of this because if if you know it and maybe it fits better under environment um you know sustainability and maintenance maybe that's all kind of one one element there but I think we need to cover that some for another well that would be part of the comparison between the two kinds of fields yeah oh yeah I mean one of the easy ways to perhaps address this is to say we've been given by the town meeting uh three topics to deal with and so maybe if we just say we'll deal with those three topics health safety and environment and as we've been saying a lot of different things can come under each of those but I think if we start off with those three uh and then figure out try to figure out which uh items don't fit or do fit under the three categories I think that's our challenge as as Jim was saying I think it's pretty easy to stick the safety the maintenance when we're just talking to under safety because I think that lets us have a comparison between the grass fields we're trying to maintain and turf fields and whether there's a difference in the safety there so I think either type of field if you can't properly maintain it becomes unsafe and then also adding in the you know whatever the lawn maintenance chemicals and things would be in the chemical piece so um part of why I've been trying to sort of and maybe maybe we don't maybe people are willing to take a leap of faith on each of these working groups so part of the reason I've been trying to sort of fill in a little bit of the focal focal points for each of these working groups or subgroups is because I was hoping people would volunteer to join them tonight but I know it's hard to join something when you're not really sure what your what your focal focal points will be so um there might be someone sitting here right now saying well you know I might go to the safety group but not if it's going to be all about x y and z you know or I might go to environment but I don't want to spend all day talking about maintenance you know and sustainably I want to talk about other you know so part of why we're trying to do this is so people feel comfortable maybe making at least a preliminary commitment to join a subgroup well one thing we could do Jim is to just set up the groups have people volunteer to join a particular group and then let the group figure out what's going to be dealt with in that particular group uh rather I'd be okay with that I'd be okay with that but would others be okay with that as long as we come back to it because we don't want to miss something important sure yeah I think it's like the first meeting of each subgroup they need to come up with like this is what we're going to tackle and then report it back right and then we can sort of see you know maybe start with Natasha's list and build from there and then but then we all know okay we if we like Jill said if we miss something we'll see it yeah I think that would be the uh task of the first meeting the subgroup to say here are the topics we're going to look at um I'm very comfortable with that if people are comfortable it certainly would save us some some time and energy right now trying to be more prescriptive and be a little more give the groups themselves a little more latitude and then maybe report back what they what their thoughts are um so it sounds like there's fairly broad consensus that a health separate health safety and environment groups would be a good starting point here um I think there's seems to be consensus that um maybe you know having a rough idea what's in each of these I think we've Natasha's given us a rough idea maybe what could be in each of these but letting each of the groups kind of nail down the actual points they they want to be the the focus areas and then um well I think this now sort of leads to the question of I think we should meet next week um I think we have to to keep the momentum going the question is do people to make a really effective meeting next week there would be at least one um and it doesn't even have to be a meeting you know it can be just an email dialogue right if we're not if we're not as town council says if these are less than a quorum on any one group then we're not violating the open meeting law you know you could have a the freedom to have a little bit a little bit of a back and forth on an email unlike the larger group can do um but um uh it would I think um be good if people came into the next meeting with two things um with an idea of okay these are the four or five areas can be more than that can be seven or eight it can be two or three but these are the areas we would think should be our our focal areas for this subgroup and then the second piece which we will spend most of the next meeting talking about or maybe all of the next meeting is okay for the environment group these are our focus areas and now this is kind of our proposed research path without us not necessarily delineating this study this study this study but you know this is the kind of areas now we want to kind of pursue uh before you know over the course of the following two weeks leading into our january meetings does that make sense it's a tight timeline because our next meeting I was going to propose to just be next tuesday at five so it's um it doesn't give people a lot of time to have maybe necessarily a formal meetup uh but maybe it can just be you know an email back and forth and if people want to hop on a call that's fine but um so if people are comfortable with that and I sort of don't see anyone looking like they're uncomfortable with that um maybe Natasha the key thing now is to find out who would be interested in being in what group yep so do you want to just kind of maybe I'll just go around and see what folks are interested in um yeah so do you want me to do that yeah maybe we do it like a roll call and you say but you know it would be your first choice you know and um and then I mean we'll see where the numbers land maybe give us a first and second choice right all right so we'll start with um Mike what's your your first and second choice the uh environmental uh bucket would be my first choice and uh I guess I'd have to look at uh safety as a second choice okay and um Leslie you're probably oh I'm sorry I'm muted hang on okay yeah I I fell out and had to come back in um I guess safety would be my first and environment would be my second okay Jill bar uh probably environment is my first and then um health would be second okay um Jill health and then safety okay um I'm next but I'm happy to go last or I can go now it doesn't matter so I guess like health health would be my first one thing so sorry um and I guess uh I'll go with environmental a second okay so that's me Marvin health first and safety okay and Jim um I'll take the uh Coward's way out and just say I'll go wherever wherever the numbers need me I could do any of them they're all of interest to me but I guess wherever wherever the numbers work out that I'm happy to go okay and then we have um David Morgan and Joe Conley who are non-voting members but I so I I do believe that they would be able to participate on a working group um so I can go I think so we should operate under that assumption we can check with town council to be sure okay you know I mean I think they should be able to it's certainly their input would be quite valuable yes um all right so David environment and health and then health Joe Conley changed my mind three times since I've heard everybody's decision um but I'm kind of like Jim I think wherever okay the numbers fall I can be out to participate okay so I'll just go right down the list here we have I think with honestly first options we might be able to just do with this from first options it does so we've got three for environment I'm sorry three for environmental um three for health one for safety so Jim and Joe if you wanted to jump into safety it would be three there um yeah I'm happy to join safety and can you just give us the names in each group yes um give me one second I'm sorry uh do you want me to put Jim and Joe safety is that work it works yeah okay so in environmental I have um Mike uh Joe Barr and David Morgan okay in safety I have Leslie Jim and Joe um in health I have Jill myself and Marvin and that's it nine of us everyone comfortable with that just one comment yeah one comment I have is um so we have both rec people in the same and we have the invite conservation people in the same it might make sense for just to mix it up a little bit I mean otherwise it's going to be Jim me and Leslie going to inundate you with um safety recommendations yeah you know um and maybe just for environmental we just that way we have a different perspective coming in from each of those two subgroups just I thought the same thought crossed my mind um I'd be interested to hear what the group has to say about that I mean I I um it's a potential concern I think it's worth flagging but we can either rejigger some things or the alternative is to say because these groups are reporting out weekly you know and and there's a certain interaction between the subgroup members and the larger committee on a regular basis um and that there is naturally going to be some overlap between these groups no matter what we do right between environment and safety and health and safety and you know etc that there may be less of a concern about the deck being stacked on any one of these and that those are that's my phrase that wasn't yours Joe so I don't want to put the words in your mouth but uh I'm less concerned but um I do see the point and it's worth raising and what are people's thoughts just from my experience and again maybe I'm just so scarred still from the terraform um but you know the wrecks the again I don't want to say size because we're all on one side here so but the wreck perspective in the conservation perspective on environment was the just totally different perception of the data even the data could sounds like it could be the same and and one was saying one expert was saying black the other one was saying white so again I I'm sure and we'll all come out in the wash and when we we've report back but you know I just just a little concern that's all is there someone I don't want to put anyone on the spot but is there interest in someone who's on environment swapping to safety with Joe it's okay if there isn't but I'm not as I'm comfortable as Joe is to see the the way that these subgroups have worked out I think as you were saying Jim that we're going to be it's going to be a lot of interaction among those subgroups and with the whole group as a the whole committee so I don't I'm less concerned about swaying one way or the other so the environmental group is Mike Joe and David and David Joe Conley Joe Barr no no no sorry Joe Joe um yes sorry Joe Barr is on environmental uh so let me just let me just repeat that so it's Mike uh Joe Barr and David Morgan in terms of environmental and while it is true that uh both Joe Conley and David Morgan are not the voting members I think the piece here is that this is just a working group but to Jim's point too no one is making any decisions in these groups other than to bring things back and we all wait that's that's that's the whole reason why we're able to do it this way because we're not making these aren't deliberations these aren't decisions these are this is sort of just you know a more nimble way to get to get to movement on some things to report to the larger group that does have you know deliberation authority so so Jim I would say then next week's meeting it's just again and this isn't you know Mike and David I mean I'm sure but just if it's where you get the data from yeah right and it's going to be you know the studies that are presented to the entire group I mean um Leslie and I could could probably get you and again Jim you'll keep us honest but you know and I'm sure you know Joe will keep you know Mike and David but we could present you know 15 studies coming from a safety perspective from you know the benefits of field and in the same thing environment with the big one when you looked at the you know the amount of concerns from you know certainly the PFAS and the rubber and the organic infill there's so much to unpack with environment um I mean there's just thousands and hundreds of studies that could be presented through one lens and that's well and I see and and that's where starting to interrupt Joe that's where I see next week's meeting being important um much as Natasha and I were given some authority to sort of do a little coordination and think about some things and we reported back to everyone and then got your input before we nailed anything down today I see these subgroups you know over the next week kind of beginning to think about okay what kind of studies will we look at what kind of research will we be looking at reporting to the group next week and that's where uh Joe or Leslie you can say to the environment group wow you know those are interesting studies I've got a few I think you should add to the list too or Mike and David when we say some safety studies say oh it's good but I've got a few I think you should look at too um that's where you know I it's I'm fine with the larger group also informing the discussion you know when they report back that's why I was saying earlier on I think we need some guidelines on uh what studies we reference and look at uh so that there isn't a one-sided approach or or depending on where the studies come from and you know I guess maybe as a segue to next week um and I don't want to get too far down this road because I think it would be our topic for an agenda next week but um you know is there generally a feeling that you know in a hierarchy if we were to come up with a hierarchy of um of research you know the preference you know on top of the hierarchy is something that's you know a government analysis and the next level down is you know you know federal government analysis state state or local government analysis then you know uh interest I mean I don't know is it is it worth talking about that for a minute or two here we'll talk about it next week too but you know just in terms of giving these subgroups a little bit of a focus for when they do start to think about the research pathways they want to go down Marvin um I I think that that's not a totally unreasonable approach but I'd be really careful about making a rigid structure so for example with the medical scores you know which might be better than a state agency study depending on you know what the staff is how much you know the knowledge base of the people who are doing it you know where they're getting their data who's who's you know who's assessing data um but yeah I mean I would I would say I would probably you know kind of or it's like I don't know how you characterize sort of an organized reputable source as opposed to you know something else but you know I would think sort of a pure interest group would be kind of low on my list of yeah yeah and it can be flexible I mean you know there might be an interest group that actually puts out a really great study that you know is quite legitimate you know and the deck isn't stacked and uh and there could be as you say a state environmental not all state environmental departments are crudely equal as we know and there could be a state environmental study that's you know a total uh totally in the tank for a particular interest uh given you know one particular state's focus on something so uh it has to be sort of a flexible analysis but in general you know our people sort of comfortable with the general idea that you know the more uh government focus the more truly neutral you know type of study you know should be sort of more prioritized over something where there was I'm hesitant to say an agenda but where there was an interest that you know paid for the study or did the study itself who had kind of an interest I think whether it's a state or federal agency I think a key question might be is it a peer-reviewed scientific paper yeah you know who funded it and who the people in charge of it that kind of stuff so so keep that through the lens that you're looking having these discussions over the next week when you know I mean I I'm not necessarily looking I mean Natasha jump in here I guess I'm not necessarily looking for like a syllabus you know next week I'm like oh here's our group give up with these 15 studies we're gonna you know look at um you can do that and that would be helpful but I don't think we need that by next week but you know obviously if you've got some reference points some examples you want to share that would be helpful to show you know and this is going to be an evolving process you know you you're going to find more research as you go along it shouldn't be locked into a certain pathway right from the get go but gives us a sense of where you're going so people are comfortable I don't know how much if we can I promised we would try to keep this to an hour really over an hour but I still think we're nearing the finish line so Jim can I just uh ask real quick so the asks for next week one are are the subcommittees supposed to try and connect in some way to try and figure out okay so one is working groups we'll call them the working work thank you working groups um to connect and this could be via email yeah it's it's whatever people are comfortable there can be a phone call it can be a text it can be email I mean as long as you according to according to town council we're we're staying on the right side of this if we have under a quorum then then I think we're fine okay um do we want to ask if oh David has his hand up one second David do we want to ask if someone from each group wants to sort of take the lead on getting the group together before our next meeting it'd be nice if someone may be initiated the discussion I'm not necessarily saying we were pointing pointing subgroup chairs or anything that formal but someone's going to send the first email right okay yep so if the health people are okay I would be happy to send that email and figure out a time for us to talk um we can either do it we'll figure that out but so I'll I'll take the lead on that um David I see your hand up so go right ahead I'm sorry I wanted to step back a little bit and touch on something that Jim said earlier just before we conclude about maintenance and cost and so forth that's one of those cross cutting issues that I don't think really falls into any one of the buckets so as we're meeting I think we should be attentive to that concern throughout so that it's a it's a thread that we can follow amongst the working groups the other thing I wanted to comment on was about sort of trustworthiness of studies and so forth I think there's there are a few more criteria we might consider adding to the to the list and thinking about meta reviews like studies of studies and how many have been reviewed within a given area and the credentials of the people conducting that review and so forth I find those really helpful especially when getting into a new field is where I'm like really not comfortable with some of the terminology or the concepts involved they can they can be really instructive also thinking about longitudinal studies once they look at the effects that we're considering over time and maybe also over different geographies I'm not sure that it's necessary given that we're looking for more of a local focus but those are some ideas about how it can how we can bring in sort of a I don't know I don't know a more informed approach to reading the studies because some of the work's been done for us right like people have gone out and looked at the studies already and these are nice little summaries that do the package together good points all good points um so just transitioning um ask me to uh what was the word that you were using Jim to be just as over anything like that but so for the environmental group do we have anyone who would be willing to coordinate an email Mike okay so Mike will um coordinate that and then for the safety group Jim Joe Conley and Leslie any one of you want to hear that email I can send out an email sure perfect all right so we've got that and so the goals for next next meeting is one for us to sort of meet within our subcommittees to try and get some topics narrowed down and then also to start thinking at least a little bit about um you know what we would like what those what the resource parameters or guidelines might be those two sort of the assignments that we're looking at okay great and then um meeting so new business you know I think just meeting schedule I think we sort of tentatively agreed that we would meet virtually at least through the end of the year just because it was easier with holidays um we could reevaluate that in January maybe have an occasional meeting in person or have all our meetings in person depending on what people want or continue to meet all virtually but postpone that discussion till January um are people comfortable with another it would be our last meeting of the year about a final meeting uh next Tuesday at five again yep okay virtually with a week off for the holidays because I'm guessing that's just most people's preference I assume certainly my preference I'm hoping others are comfortable with taking a week off there and um with the idea we'd come back well I guess the day after New Year's is is Tuesday the second I don't know we want to come back that quickly but I'm fine if we do we can talk about that at our next meeting but think about the meeting schedule in January and have some ideas for the next meeting perfect Jim and can I just add in here um so I'm going to be getting the packet ready I don't think we have any holidays coming up but just in practice I like to try and get my packet ready to go for Thursday um so my goal is to have the packet to the group and post it on the website by 9 a.m or you know by 12 noon on Friday so getting materials by Thursday night at five would really be ideal so any public comment any sort of um you know materials that the group wants to share with everyone else if you could just get those to me I'll make sure that they get included in the packet um I just like to build in that extra time because I have the 48 hour window and it gets a little hairy so um you never know what's going to pop up and then I think um the only other piece I think you know I think that's all I have sorry anything else under new business before we take a motion to adjourn we want to so uh Jim we mentioned sending that for the public to send comments or materials or what have you to me and you do you want me to update the website and have our emails posted or I have a general town account it's boh at town um I can accept all of the information there and I can distribute it or if we want to put your personal email as well that's that's fine or I'll give my town email I don't know what preferences are but I guess my preference would be maybe for a more a more generic specific town email okay so why don't if it's okay with the group is everyone okay if we use boh it stands for board of health at town.arlington.ma.us um and then I'll make sure that any materials that come in are all distributed and in the meantime I know last week we didn't have this um set up we could do my email I just I just think that um boh is probably just easier but boh at town comes to me Natasha or you can do and wait at at town either one is fine but they both come to me um so I'm sorry I lost my train of thought because I was doing something I shouldn't have been doing I'm sorry I think I think we're nearing the finish line here um I do want to thank everyone this is um like I said these are the toughest meetings because once you have a plan you're off to the races but it's figuring out the what and the how um that's the hardest so I really appreciate everyone really participating today and bringing their thinking caps so um especially in a month where there's a lot going on everyone being available it's been really valuable so unless there's anything else I'll entertain a motion to adjourn so moved is there a second who second that Jill and Mike or Jill yeah okay um we'll go right down just do the roll yeah okay um so uh Mike yes okay uh Leslie yes Jill Barr yep Jill yep Natasha yes Marvin yes Jim uh Jim yes awesome thanks everyone see you next Tuesday and I'm sure some of you all see much sooner