 All right, we're going to start with our questions now. And I'm going to turn it over to Steve Ruey. I wanted to ask Steve, Bruce, and about the ability to queue up multiple selected portions on the various services like managed driving, healthy pilot. I know that the educators are talking about when you need to queue up multiple selections, multiple scenes. Can you do that through that? Will you be able to do that through the various access services? Can you queue up more than one? If I wanted to show minute 2 and minute 30, would that be possible? Well, you can certainly queue up multiple titles on Flixer. I understand that. You're talking about multiple points within the same title. I'm not sure on a service like the ultraviolet service. Digital copy, as you know, is different for managed copies. It's here now, and it's going to be more and more prevalent, and it certainly will be possible for you to have a digital copy. You may well have a digital copy on the laptop, and a digital copy that's accessible through a service like this, and that would be one way. I just don't know, frankly, but I will try and find that out for both actual pilot and for digital copy. Managed copy, when it comes, you could devise a program, I think, that would work for queuing that up, but it's not here yet. I just want to be sure I understand the question when I go back to check to look into this. This would be for queuing up multiple books from a single title. Correct. Correct. OK. That's a good turn. You mentioned the ability to manipulate as necessary for teaching. How does the ability to manipulate video depend on quality? Why is the ability to teach how to manipulate it depend on the ability to manipulate it? Isn't it putting pieces together? Does it matter how quality the piece is on? Yeah, so I think this is really important. So one of the major ways that video is used in classrooms now is by students who then will edit clips together, add voiceover commentary sometimes. And when they look at the images, they're studying them not the way we are here. This is a very artificial context. They're actually analyzing them often very closely, comparing them just side by side. And so if you're going to talk about an image, the high school students talking about Citizen Kane, they realize that they couldn't focus on the image when it was distorted, but also they couldn't look at the details and talking about the details. They were forced to talk about it at a certain level that was only available to them. So the visual details were not always available to the audio. The details weren't always available to them. So one example of a slide I've seen many times is students doing a voiceover over a series of clips in a sociology class that we talked about where students look at commodities in the way that commodities circulate globally, but also the way that commodities are presented in popular media. And they're talking about diamonds and blood diamond to diamond commercials. And they'll look at the way that blood diamonds are shown in the movie blood diamonds. And so they're really looking at the quality of the image and the representation of the image. So in that case, Abby will be announcing the close-up of the character in Alice. I'm going to please go to the board. The announcement, you just mentioned a couple of things that I'm familiar with, I'm a commodity. How's the quality of that, of those clips, relevant? I get that quality is relevant, but again, how is the difference, what's the added difference between, say, something like screen capture or smartphone capture? As a larger theme, how's the granular quality matter different? That's how that happened. OK, let's go back to the Citizen Kane example that I've seen a few times today. So this was this one scene, a very famous scene in which there's a lot of depth of field. And that's one of the things in the movie's famous for. The image of Kane is in the background, in the distance. It's very bright. The image of his mother in her foreground is very dark. In the Blu-ray version we saw, you actually get a sense of distance that you don't get in the same way with the DVD. There are a few things that contribute to that. The big one is that the deeper blacks you see in the Blu-ray, it actually changes the distance. And so that would be useful if we're studying the cinematography, red-hull ones or maybe we're cinematography in that. But also, if you were studying it from a sociological perspective, like the American studies professors I mentioned, and they're talking about the way in which what's going on in the background comments or what's going on in the foreground. In the Blu-ray, there actually was a real background and a real foreground. The DVD image, which is a lot, you don't see the same deep blacks. You don't see the same definition. All of a sudden, you don't have the same forward and foreground in the background. And I'm trying to get a sense of many examples of this. And we're coming back to one scenes. And I understand that this isn't a good film. But I was asking about some of these other examples that you mentioned. How is, specifically, what's the difference in quality matter for the addicts in it? So in that example, you would talk about that if you're looking at a diamond commercial, there are a few ways that it could matter. So one is this effective response. When you look at a diamond and you look at audiences watching a diamond commercial, if the diamond is very clear and crisp and sparkly, it might respond in one way. If the diamond is kind of muddy and blurred, it's not going to sparkle on the same way in the original diamond work. But also, they might be looking at it more aesthetically and thinking about the way the diamond's positioned. Is the diamond on the finger? Or do we define the diamond clearly from the finger? Do you have any reaction to the notion that some students couldn't imagine anything better than the DVD? So actually, the more I think about it, the more I realize this is more of a cost of living raise rather than a dramatic expansion of the existing exemption. And three years later, the same image we looked at in this room just don't look, no one does it. I find that avatar amid shocky, the difference in the DVD and the Blu-ray. Avatar is a film that was sent out in over 100 different versions of different movie theaters. So they look just right in every different screening context. There were many, many different versions released on the Blu-ray on DVD and other formats. So they looked perfect in those formats. In fact, the Blu-ray avatar didn't have any DVD extras because they wanted to use every single possible bit of space on the disk to complete the quality of the film. That's the way it's meant to be shown. It's the way it's meant to be studied. Can't you open it for a second? Just on the point that you raised about the difference between the Blu-ray and the DVD and Citizen Kane in the depth of field, I was able to see a little more in terms of the depth of field. But I also saw you mentioned the blacker blacks, which tended, at least in my viewing of that, to distort some parts that actually the DVD was clearer when it came to those dark areas and the Blu-ray distorted it. So don't we get into a situation where there are a lot of different variables at stake and can you comment on that? Yeah, so I think that's exactly right. And the question is which one is distorted, right? They look different. But they were both distorted for a certain purpose, right? Exactly, they're both distorted for certain purposes. And in lots of different classrooms, people study media for different kinds of reasons, and I actually think all those types of types of media should be available. So it's very possible for media studies in Boston that show a DVD and a Blu-ray to talk about the different qualities of the different images, in which case you want them both available. They might be possible in the same sociology class which is looking at the circulation of... I know I should come back to this now. The circulation of time, right? And to show that when you're looking at this image in a third world country, which has a dial-up internet in Washington on YouTube, it's very different than the same image which is shown on a high-end TV in the US. And what about Jonathan's point that the original is so important? I mean, which one of these would have been closer to the original that people would have seen in a theater at the time of the Citizen's Kingdom show? So this is a contradiction we've been talking about for the last six years. And in fact, we want to claim that both things are important. So first, we want something that's as closely original as possible. In this case, Blu-ray is much closer to the theoretical number of pixels that would be on a 35-millimeter film or a 70-millimeter film. They don't have pixels, it's chemical. But it's definitely much, much deeper a richer image than a DVD. And Blu-ray is certainly closer to that experience. But also, time's changed. We're never gonna have that exact experience on video. They even have one film. And so sometimes it's worth it. It's important that you have access to different kinds of media to talk about those kinds of media. And actually, a third way to look at it is to think about its effective response. When people saw Citizen Kane originally, there was a powerful, sharp image. When they look at a DVD today, it looks as that student described it as looking at, this is like an avatar. It looks like you're looking at it through muddy glasses. And so the experience of watching Blu-ray is a little bit closer to the experience of watching the original 1940s, 30-millimeter film. So there's three ways that are important, but I think we need access to all of them. To Mr. Wright, you mentioned several trade groups, groups that were advocating to benefit from using video flash. Correct? What they're advocating for is for digital and informational literacy as part of the curriculum for first year writing of college students. Is there any, do they have any guidelines that refer to the quality of the material that's being used? Well, quality relates to the rhetorical impact of any text. So, I mean, if I was gonna do an analogy, I kind of differentiate between a person has a one-page alphabetic text with two paragraphs in it, versus a person has that same exact text. And instead of having two paragraphs, the text is broken down into five paragraphs. I mean, a one-sentence paragraph can bring emphasis to the point. I'm talking about a text that's all letters. So it's the same content, but how you present it is meant for a different rhetorical purpose. So, no, there isn't anything specifically mentioning the quality of videos, but the quality of a video has to be geared to the purpose and goal of your writing as customized to a particular audience. So, if the clarity of diamonds is important to audience A, but not important to audience B, depending on what you're emphasizing, I mean, you need to, a person that's creating a text needs to have the ability to manipulate that text to the highest degree possible to achieve the impact that they want on that particular audience. And I think that's a win necessary, and that's what we're trying to get to, is when is that high quality absolutely necessary? And I think that's what we're trying to figure out. I hear a lot of, there's some specific examples and some hypothetical ones. Well, I mean, when an individual's creating a text, like I've seen rubrics where teachers evaluate the text that the student created and it may be a video text. If it's pixelated, the student, I know of situations where the student is marked down because I've been in a graduate class, a digital rhetoric class, where we were marked down if our images were pixelated. So, we are graded on, it's the quality of the entire text. The clarity of your images is part of what you're presenting as a component of quality. So, it would be like having sentences that didn't have clear meaning. That's the analogy that I can offer. Ms. Hobbs, I think it was Bruce who raised this question about what was the act of circumvention that was needed to access video-based? It's an example that you would be pointing to. I don't, I'm not aware that video games require a circumvention yet, but I do think it's important and one of the reasons why I use those specific examples in my testimony today was to point to the fact that teachers are using a broad array of cultural products that are now normative in youth culture. So, our job as educators is to make a connection between the content and the skills that we're trying to teach and the world that students grow up into. And so, we try to help build that connection by using a wide array of cultural products. It may be in the future that video games will make use of CSS-like encryption tools, but that wasn't my point. My point was simply to say that educators need to be able to access a broad array of cultural products in order to make the connection between the classroom and the culture. As you notice in your written proposal, you made note of one example that I could identify where high quality specifically matters. I believe that was Libby Drake teaching a high school course on film techniques. But first of all, that's one example where the high quality was made known of or it specifically seemed to be relevant. And the other portion, that was high school. We've heard a lot about high school. Yet you're asking for K for 12. Right, would you like me to describe a really interesting example of a lesson that I did for seventh grader in middle school? So we were trying to talk a little bit about the difference between film and TV. Because when you're growing up, right? It's all on one box, right? They're all shows, right? And so, well actually no, television is one kind of industry and film is another kind of industry. You may experience that seamlessly when you're 11, but it's important to understand the difference. And so one way you talk about the difference is to talk about the business part of how media is made. But another way you can introduce it to young people is to talk about the production values and the production techniques. So I used an excerpt from Princess Diaries and the Hannah Montana movie, right? Because in fact you can see in the production techniques themselves the distinction between film style and television style. In that activity with those 11 and 12 year olds, quality kind of mattered. Having access to visual material that allowed us to see the difference between film production and television production. Mr. Bowles, you mentioned that your example was pointing towards the use of Jane. You use Camtasia, and you own Camtasia? I'm given a copy of Camtasia if I requested it from my tech department. Did you find anything similar problems with quality? I know you mentioned the notion of uploading in the time constraints that they're under now. That was a problem. Were there problems with Jane that you wouldn't have experienced with Camtasia? Were there, wait, so you noted that the use of Jane instead of Camtasia. Right, but are you familiar with Camtasia as well? Correct, yes. Maybe I'm somewhat familiar. I don't use it quite often, but I don't think there's a time limit using Camtasia. And I believe you can save it as a file. With regard to the time, I understand queuing up multiple clips is something that has been pointed to multiple times. When you get to a clip that, there should have to be some threshold where you want to show five, minute, 10 minutes. When it's a longer clip, does that diminish the concern about needing to queue up? Would it be that burdensome to have to queue up when you're going to show one clip and then discuss it a minute? You're asking it's burdensome to queue up more? Take for instance, no, no, I'm talking about one clip. You're talking about the Citizen Kane and the demonstration that you had was, you mentioned it was a little over five minute clip of Citizen Kane. And it seemed like a lengthy discussion that you had. It just seems that maybe it's not terribly burdensome to have to queue up one specific clip that then is the topic of the lengthy discussion. What do you... Queuing up one clip, I think, is less burdensome. Absolutely, I would agree with that. But typically you're doing more than one clip. In that particular class, that's an 80 minute classroom, we did probably about 10 clips of Citizen Kane. You just didn't see it because I didn't show it, but we certainly did multiple clips. And oftentimes, we've done clips from different versions of different films. So like the two different versions, let's say, of the most popular, Rowey of Julia, Zephyralli versus the, who's the... Bozlerman's version of Rowey of Julia. What were the points of comparison? I'm getting to the wind, the quality does matter, and that's going to be your current thing. Every time there's an example of use of a clip, okay, how exactly did the enhanced quality be on what's available through smart phone capture, screen capture? How is that relevant? Why is it necessary? For that one, you mentioned Rowey of Julia. Can you have that here? I was answering that in response to this idea of doing multiple clips. I know now that it's an example where my follow-up is, how is the quality particularly relevant in that sort of comparison? Would another method be another alternative of showing those clips be sufficient? They don't think so. I think that, again, decoding something, you want the best possible quality to be viewed, as opposed to kind of trying to figure out things. You saw my students struggle with a screen capture with not only video, but also the audio quality. But we saw studios struggle with a particular form of screen capture taking with Jane. And since we're really, the question is, in terms of quality, differentials, what is your, just to get back to the questions, Camtasia, at the high end of the same company makes three forms of capture software. There's one, Camtasia is the premium one, but then there's one in between that seems more comparable price-wise to the Appliant that we had had some demonstrations on about $30 to $30 to $40 range. What, have you done any experimentation with those medium-priced screen capture and noted any, you know, is it better? I would assume that since Ching is free, you get what you pay for. So what is the, do you have an experience in terms of the quality differential for the intermediate capture software? I have limited experience with it, but yeah, the quality definitely is better with Camtasia, but it's more expensive. It's not a free product. But then what about, and my question is, so that's the premium, what about the intermediate versions that we saw demonstrations from others that with the Appliant software that had a different, perhaps a different quality, seemed to be fairly good quality in the intermediate TechSmith version, also seemed, I wonder if that's equivalent. I don't know, I honestly don't know. I don't have enough experience. I use Camtasia mostly for screen casting and not for capturing video, or I'm just capturing what I'm doing on a computer screen. The, it seems, okay, does anyone else have experience with that intermediate software, Appliant, intermediate TechSmith? A follow up with Mr. Bollis. In the video that you showed, the students were saying it's hard to understand and one of them said people talking over each other. Isn't that the nature of the content that was being watched? It's not people talking over each other in that scene. So I took away from that, and that's why they had difficulty understanding if I'm incorrect or if I'm missing. The difference was in how the audio was captured. So when I captured it the first way, using the screen capture software, I literally had to go into a room and lock it so that nobody would come into it because it was capturing it through the microphone of the computer. That's a poor audio quality and you would get from a straight rip from a DVD. And so you saw that two groups of students, but for time's sake, I edited it very heavily. So the group I focused on specifically was the screen capture version and the audio is harder to understand hearing it from the screen capture version than it is from the DVD version. The kids in the other class did not have the same difficulties in decoding the audio. When you showed the DVD version was, I'm sorry, the highest quality version, I don't remember if it was DVD. It was a DVD. Was that shown in QDOT or was that acquired? That was QDOT. It was completely legal. That's the way I ask the question. Can I just get a clarification there? Sure. Because your explanation of how you got the audio didn't jive of how I thought this worked, but I'm certainly no expert. Are you saying that with the particular screen capture software you were using, the only way you can get the audio was through the computer's microphone? Yep. Was that standard with screen capture software? Yes, Bruce. The Athlean product that we showed if the fault is through the speakers and actually what Tim Short had demonstrated was captured, he captured it through the speakers. There are, however, settings that you can go and capture in various forms of audio for the replaying software. So the default is through the speakers, but that's not the only way for the replaying software. That's correct. I would agree with that. What it means if you sneeze during the middle of the screen recording, your sneeze shows up in the recording? But only if you have it set for the fault. If you set it as you can to capture the audio eternally, if you will, from the audio stream on the computer, you wouldn't have that problem. And why would the fault be to capture to the speaker which would strike me would be, I don't know. It would be almost always local over quality. Because screen capture is designed to do demonstrations. The normative practice is I want to teach you how to use the software, so I'll talk about the software while I'm moving around. I mean, this is your point. Do you have the appropriate information to set it as? Can I add something very quickly? When you capture system audio, you're also capturing beeps and lips from other programs on your computer. It's not just from that particular video. Steve, do you have anything to add about the 12-1 status of screen capture software? Have you heard from two others about that? And we didn't do the analysis that they did, the technical analysis that they did, but I have no reason to question the technical analysis that they did. And as we said three years ago, that if it operates to capture the images in an unencrypted and otherwise unprotected signal without preventing a technological measure, then it's not a violation. As described by the technical study that Bruce and Dean's folks did, that seems to describe the particular program that they were using. If it's unencrypted and if it's not protected by some other type of access control, and I imagine that in the stream from the point at which it was being copied with that software, it was A, unencrypted. I think that was, like, right here in your study found, and it wasn't subject to any other access control. I mean, in theory, you could have an unencrypted stream that is subject to password protection or something like that. But this wasn't, so we would basically concur based on the technological point. I know it was mentioned, the inability to capture, let's say, Netflix, the video, and that was using, I believe, Jane as well, or exactly the same. Yeah, my teacher said it was a camtasia, or actually, he was a little unclear. He said camtasia or something like that. Okay, I've seen some indication that that is, that's a function of using a Mac. And I know that the testimony was that they were using Mac. If there are alternatives, other operating systems, what would your reaction be that, why wouldn't an alternative, use of an alternative operating system be the appropriate way to, as opposed to an exception? I think maybe the, I'd like to call your attention to the spirit of the video clip that I shared with you. Here was a teacher during his lunch hour in the 30 minutes that he gets in his day. And he was actually chatting with me about the problems he encounters. So when he shared his story, I think what you've got a feeling from is that he made a pretty good effort to try to do screen capture and it failed. He wasn't sure exactly why it failed and he left perhaps the considerable expertise that someone might have to be able to identify what the problem was and then to try it again. I think that represents a significant obstacles for some ordinary people who are pretty busy. Why doesn't that just represent the fact that on one specific occasion, one specific person had difficulties which we really don't understand what those difficulties were or why they had occurred. But isn't it dangerous to generalize from that one bit of anecdotal evidence based upon a 30 minute conversation you had that there's a general problem? David, I do 15 events in American middle school and high schools every year. At every event, teachers come up to me and tell me the challenges they have. I meant this example not to be an isolated incident, but one example in the 10 minutes that I was provided to give you a specific example. Okay, but you have to understand we have to make our decision based upon what's in our record. And all that's in our record on that particular topic is a lunchtime interview with one teacher who had difficulty. While we may sympathize with him with respect to the difficulty he had on that one occasion, it's not clear to me that we can craft an exemption based upon his experience. And I realize that that's not all you're basing it on, but to the extent that the Netflix issue is an issue, I'm not sure we've got enough of a record to go on. Maybe we do, maybe we don't, but I'm just saying if all you've got is one conversation with someone who's not entirely sure what was going on, that's a pretty slim foundation upon which to build an exception. So we'll see you in three years. Will, is it? Maybe, maybe, maybe. I know, so. I'm going to give you a quick answer. I need a more practical response to that very quickly. Yes. Sorry, I just wanted to put down a marker because I was trying to listen quite carefully to what that high school teacher said. And he said, I needed to go do the screen capture on Netflix because we couldn't find our DVD of this particular film that we had. And so CSS as the access control was completely irrelevant here. I mean, it wasn't the access control technical protection measure of CSS that was preventing this particular teacher from getting a clip. And the fact that the screen capture software for whatever reason didn't work when they were trying to record the unencrypted content coming from whether it was Netflix or any other streaming service, that's a problem of recording. That has nothing to do with an access control measure. Well, can I just follow up on this discussion because it seems like Netflix is a somewhat different issue because Netflix, to my understanding, involves, requires you to download Microsoft Silverlight in order to be able to access any of the streaming content, which is a secure path type of software. So, following up on Dean's point is that how does this relate to what would you circumvent even if there was an exemption? I mean, how would you, this isn't a CSS content scrambling system issue or an ACS issue. This is a completely different, which sort of gets into the 7G issues. If this gets broadened up to, broadened to the extent of including all online content aren't we talking about many, many types of technological protection measures, none of which are specifically identified in this rule making or what the consequences might be of having such broad ability to circumvent these many unnamed protection measures? So, I just actually haven't been looking this up on the drink down this morning and there are at least three kinds of DRM I found of copy protection, take TPMs that do advertise the ability to block screen capture. One was called HighSoft DRMX, one was called Widevine, the one was called Artist Scope. I don't know where they're used, but they do advertise that ability. We did, so now the exemption, the 2010 exemption is limited to DVDs and one kind of copy protection. We did have an exemption for three years before that, which applied generally to audio-visual media and didn't specify a specific technology that could be circumvented. I don't see why we should prioritize one technology over another. Well, maybe we should go back to the point that was raised earlier about with respect to Blu-ray, because having been on the 2006 rule making, all we were talking about at the time were DVDs, so I don't think that in the spirit of crafting that exemption, there was any intent to, and we had much less online digital content that was available as well. So, at what point in time did you interpret that exemption to include everything beyond a content screening system? So I agree the discussion was primarily about DVDs, but when I read the exemption and it was for all audio-visual, we're excited that it was for all audio-visual. Maybe we're just not very good drafters. We can fix that. Spirit, did you have anything to add before? Yeah, we were talking about different platforms and the limitations of why not use a different platform. Coming from a school district that is what we call platform at non-stake, meaning they do Mac and Windows, all of our fear schools are Mac, only. And so sometimes that's what happens at public schools. They adopt one platform over another. So there isn't always another platform available. To that point, it is a balancing act, as what the professor said. I don't know how burdensome it is if it was acquiring another operating system. Actually, it was the alternative to need for exemption. It is burdensome at a school that only supports one platform. They will not support a different platform because that means that they have to service that platform. But if you're using a different operating system, I mean, there do seem to be various forms of screen capture software that operate. So that one particular form of screen capture software may have been limited to a PC operating system, but there are other forms of screen capture software that are available for multiple operating systems. In fact, while we're on the subject, I can't remember whether it was Dean or Steve, but one of you mentioned in your testimony when you were talking about ATHLEAN, okay? You also mentioned that you've identified some other macaways, and when you say you've identified, it wasn't clicking whether you've identified it to us or if you've just identified it internally. Yeah. The one that we had tested was Camtasia. So I want to be precise in what I'm saying about it. We, I don't believe, have tested it in terms of seeing how well it functions to capture content off of various optical disc media or streaming media that may be encrypted. The research lab we used to test it was testing to see if it functioned in the same way that the replay software function, which is to capture content after it's been decrypted. And what we determined was that it captured the content after decryption, which led us to conclude that it does not violate the DMCA and it is a tool that is available for the Mac platform. So to Steve's point, you would not be saying to all these students who are on the Mac system, sorry, you're out of luck. You have to now buy a PC with Windows on it. What we can do, I think, is use, get the software and use it and test it for various disc capture and Netflix captures to see whether it actually works as advertised or suspicion is that it does. But at this point, you can't make any representations as to the quality of what you come up with using the Camtasia on Mac. That's correct. Okay. I can, Bruce, can you, I mean, sorry, you went on, you went on a slightly different place with, you talked about quality. The Dean was talking about whether it's, whether it's usable on Netflix. My point is that he can speak to that but nobody on your side of the table can speak to whether, let's assume for the moment that the athlete and application you demonstrated in May 11 is absolutely fine for all purposes. I think the people over there might disagree or they might not, I haven't heard anything out of them so far, but let's assume that it's perfect. It has everything you need to do. You're not in a position to represent that Camtasia for Mac or any other Mac-based application is as good in terms of what it will give you. Our technical firm that did the testing said that it is as good. Okay. Is that in our record? It is now. Well, I do say statement is in our record. But that's about all of it. No, I mean, if you want, if you want further, we're happy that, you know, you want a robotic question, we're happy to answer. We'll roll that one over. Okay. Thanks. We have comparison, I do want to get reaction from this side of the room about the testimony in our tech day showing high school social studies teacher and his use of screen capture, as well as the review that was part of the testimony today I don't know which brand, but I uploaded user review. Any reaction to the fact that some of these uses using screen capture and the quality seems to be completely acceptable and useful? Well, I guess, again, there's a couple of boys are responding. One is that if the quality is the same, then why are we here? Meaning, you know, if the quality of what you're able to see is the same using the awful decryption of whether it's CSS or Blu-ray or whatever, is the same as what you're able to get using the screen capture, then why are they bothering with using this technological protection? If it's so easy to circumvent and you're able to see the same thing. So obviously you aren't able to see the same thing. Obviously there was a qualitative difference, a significant enough qualitative difference that Dean and Bruce's clients are willing to spend all this money supporting this effort of distributing stuff material in this protected form. So there's obviously got to be a qualitative difference. And the second thing is just I can tell you as a parent of kids that they can see, they're very sensitive to all of these subtle qualitative differences, even not so subtle. So for example, I grew up with a black and white television. So even when I see a black and white movie, I'm comfortable, that's part of my environment. I'm able to respond to a black and white film. My kids, having grown up in a world of color films and color television and large screen television, they have a great difficulty watching a black and white film. I mean- So who version of Citizen Keane's going to satisfy them? I think that's true, I mean, it is a, and I'm sure it'll say, you know, the educators can say it's a real challenge to get a kid to watch a black and white film. I do square this with my experience, which is that I've got daughters who are ones in their late teens now, the others in their early 20s, but they and their friends, half of what they watch, they watch on their smartphones. And you can't tell me the quality, what they're watching on that little screen is all that high and they seem perfectly happy to do that. How do you score that? You're saying about high quality. Renee and then Peter. Okay, so it's really actually bizarre to be in a room full of lawyers talking about quality. Cause while quality is a fixed, can be defined as a fixed dimension of a product. I think what Martine was trying to say earlier is that quality is a subjective experience. We've just shared with you that from our experiences as educators, working with young people, their expectations about image quality are subjective as they are, as unique as they are, but they're expectations that are based on the context, the situation, and the purpose. When I'm watching a movie while I'm walking through the mall on my smartphone, I have one expectation. When I'm sitting in a high school film class or a social studies class, I have a different expectation. So quality, well, you might want to narrow it to think of it as a fixed dimension or property of the artifact is so much more. Quality is based on the expectation of the user, and that's dependent on context, situation, and purpose. That's why we're coming to you. That's why we've been coming to you. That's why quality matters. So I want to give you two examples. They've given me before, but I'll probably do them. One is from my 2005 comments, if you don't remember. But when I talked to this Charlie Shatland clip of many times, I actually did a beat up 60 millimeter print from the 1950s film called The Immigrant. It was always a kind of academic discussion about immigration, whatever else it was about. When the DVD came out, I showed the DVD of the same clip and the students laughed the first time. All of a sudden it became a live event. We never had a way before in a beat up old copy. I'm pretty sure if I brought up the same DVD today versus the Blu-ray, it's the Blu-ray that would make them laugh and they would respond to it and not the DVD. It's a good experiment, we should try it. Another example that's in the test room, that's in the comment from this time, this is what I'm thinking, says, speaks to the question of Camcasia and other capture software. We really have tried a lot of them. They all have insufficient frame rates so that there is a jerking as to it. Individual frames can be lost. The quality of the image is degraded in many, many other ways. It's been cleaned through. Sometimes they actually have an absolute number of pixels in capture that doesn't match Blu-ray or other high-end format. But one example is from John McKay, who's a solid professor at the University who's done a lot of work on the early Soviet filmmaker, Zika Beytav. And he studied his charts from making his 1929 film now on the Blu-ray camera and it turned out that he tried to paste the editing in such a way that you'd be able to perceive faster and faster cuts and at one point there's actually one single frame in which there's an image that only exists for one frame. And when I saw him give this lecture, I actually showed the clip, I didn't see the frame. When he showed me the clip again after I seen the charts, I actually saw the one frame. If there was a Camcasia version, there's a 50% chance that that frame would have been in there and 50% chance that it would have been. That lecture couldn't have been given, he couldn't teach that, for example, to his students. Maybe he could, but it was hit and missed. Have you looked into the Applium software that was mentioned in their initial comment and demonstrated in May 11th? I haven't, exactly. Okay, and I'd like to get a response from your side to the point made by John of the quality of the same, how come you're so concerned about protecting it? If I could, I don't think the testimony was of the quality was the same. I think the testimony from the high school teacher was that the quality was acceptable. Good for his classroom. You know, I said jokingly, we have to follow up the high school social studies teachers, but we do. I mean, obviously the students at nuclear, in that example, they had much more, they had seen that more difficulty getting the point that was trying to be taught in the screen capture setting. You saw the screen capture material that was demonstrated on May 11th and the statement there, as I recall it, was that it was well received in the class and he felt comfortable as a teacher that he could achieve his pedagogical goals with this screen capture material. I'm sure there's not gonna be any one definitive answer that satisfies everybody, that the burden is on the proponents to show that they're substantially impeded the ability to make it on and bring to use because of this. I think the other point that comes from this discussion is really it was in the Library of Copyright Alliance testimony, it was in Renee's statement just now, is that the necessity criteria that you have in the existing exemption is completely subjective. There will never be a case, it seems, in which somebody who's entitled to use the exemption will say, well, it's okay, do you screen capture? It's okay, you know. And I don't blame from the perspective of the teacher, of course you want the highest quality. But as Dean said, this is a balancing process, the cost of permitting every single form of access, control, distribution of motion pictures to be circumvented, which is what proponents are asking for and to allow, especially to allow that in K through 12 students and teachers, as well as throughout the post-secondary area, is that we'll really be, we will have perhaps 200 million people in the United States that are entitled to circumvent this protection. I think at that point, you have to ask yourself, and well before that point, what is the tradeoff there in terms of, as you heard in the Los Angeles hearing, the importance, the necessity for robust access controls to promote the type of dissemination of material, I think, I did want to add something because even if you assumed, I'm assuming are you end up here, that the screen capture technology, the video capture software produced the content that was in the same quality as, although I'm ACS, I'm going to speak for DVD here now, Bruce, please permit me. I'm also a board member of DVD CCA, so I feel like I have a little bit of leeway here. But I assume the quality is the same. Jonathan is sort of saying, why do we bother? And we bother for a very real reason. If you look at what happened to the music industry with the CDs being completely in the clear format with no access control whatsoever and people would put them on their computers and drag and drop the little image and a full copy would be made and it was seamless to do, it took about two seconds and then we uploaded it to the internet and led to a lot of unauthorized use and a perception that this was okay to do. That is precisely why we apply access controls to our works so that it is not so easy and seamless to make digital copies. When you use a video capture software, you are taking a very deliberative act to apply the software, play the clips you need. It's not the same as just doing a drag and drop with a mouse. And so we are businesses. If we thought access control measures which we spent a lot of time and resources and money to develop provided absolutely no protection for our works, we wouldn't apply them. And so I just don't think there's a basis for saying, oh well access controls are useless because you can use video capture software of the same quality. The other point I wanted to make is I want to make sure that our side of the aisle is not sort of perceived as saying we do not believe cultural products should be used in the classroom because that's not what we're saying. What I've heard some folks say is you need to have the original. You need to be as close to the original as possible. If you've got the original manuscript, you use the original manuscript even if it's a medieval manuscript. Well, if there's one manuscript, it's only available in one location. It's not available in all sorts of locations around the country. And so you show a copy of the manuscript. Same thing with art. Sure, it's great to see the Mona Lisa at the Louvre Museum but not every student gets to do that. And so you use copies that are sometimes of less quality than the original but still perfectly satisfactory for pedagogical purposes. And so I feel this notion of if the highest quality is there, we automatically need access to it. Otherwise we can't achieve our educational purposes. I just think that argument sort of starts all over. Okay, yes, Kavya, we're close to running out of time. We do have more questions. So before you open your mouth, make how important it is to say what you're gonna say if you think that you can. Because the questions that didn't get asked might be really important and you might wish we'd ask them. Go ahead. Two really short points. I understand that side's not opposed to education but on this side we think that if you bring every student to the Mona Lisa to study the Mona Lisa, that'll be a good thing. It can be better than having to study all of the copies. We can't help you there. And the second point is, I think a lot of this discussion of the effect of exemption that we have on Blu-ray and high definition is obviously conjectural but we do have seven years of evidence of exemption that covers D&Ds and even when they were younger in their lifestyle. And we haven't seen any massive abuse of the exemption or any degradation of the DP market as a result of the exemption. Okay, let's stop right there and ask that side. Is that last statement accurate as far as you know? Well, on the DVD side, I think we'll show in relation to one of the panels this afternoon, a chart that'll show how DVD sales have basically had gone up till 2004, 2005 and had gone down since then. They don't trace that to the nature of the exemption. Do you know why that's the case? I'm not saying it's the exemption. On the other hand, I don't know that either one of us can say with certainty that it did or it didn't have an effect on the sales of the DVD. Yeah, this, if I could just add, I think we have, as we indicated in assuming that they, you're persuading that they've met their burden. We do not object to the renewals of the exemption. But remember, that is a much more limited category both of users and of products than what's being passed. Just one response to Steve's 200 million, which I don't know where that number came from. There are three million teachers in American public schools and almost 40% of them have a master's degree, right? The average American teacher is 54 years old. She's gonna be teaching for another 15 years. We want teachers to be able to use the newest technology because technology supports innovation in education. I don't see any reasonable reason to make a distinction between a 54-year-old middle school or elementary school or high school teacher and a college professor working at the community college level. I guess that's a question that falls up about you. Martin, at one point you had talked about with the cell phone issue that there could be some confusion. Yeah, I'm really actually worried about that. Well, let me, to what extent, I'm wondering to what extent there's confusion about the existing exemption. And that where circumvention is allowed, where there are someone believes and has reasonable grounds for believing that the quality on that DVD wasn't necessary. So the question is, to what extent is there an evaluation being made between various options for the particular work that's going to be shown in a classroom? For instance, you mentioned at one point that there were some, sometimes you want to teach about economic theories or about, well, let's just take that example. To what extent do you need specific quality to talk about economic theater theories? Well, that was an example from an economics professor, but to get to answering your question, what I was going to comment on about, the example about Mona Lisa, going and actually seeing it or how a board is quality, that whole argument is premised on the idea and this whole focus on quality is premised on the idea that your whole purpose is to just reproduce what someone else has created instead of what we're looking at is the students and the teachers of the students actually are making something new that is their own work. And so why wouldn't they want all the components of their own new work, which would be the fair use piece, to be of the highest quality possible? Why is it acceptable to tell a student that they could have a pixelated image of Mona Lisa, they're making some kind of cultural commentary on it because what they're saying isn't really that important anyway. I mean, what is the logic behind not allowing students or creators of texts that are relying on the exemption to not be able to create the highest quality possible? I don't understand that. So does that mean that the exemption is being seen as basically, as I think the point was made by Steve, that in all cases that circumvention is necessary? Circumvention is necessary, it's seen as that when I've done the workshops at my college, they asked about the students, well, what are the students allowed to do? Now, in the current language you have, it's there's a big ambiguity because is the students making a non-commercial video then are they covered under that late or is the student is making a documentary film, are they covered under that late or are they not allowed to do those two things just because they're a student? So it's almost like you already are including students in the exemption now indirectly and they haven't demonstrated any harm. I mean, we went through this whole screen capturing conversation in 2010 and it got really big and it lasted into the summer and so forth, but what I see the other side doing is just trying to make barriers so that we don't do it at all is what the wish is. And I just want to say, just comment on the smartphone, taking the smartphone, just imagine a room of 40 students and I, and we're watching a current movie and I say, okay everybody, take out your smartphone now in the classroom and take the clip you want for this montage you're gonna make. I mean, you don't just really, I don't think that they really understand the implications of what it would mean to say it's okay to take them to start with your smartphone when you've got other contexts in there, it just, yeah, it just scared me. Peter, I wanted to ask you, you pointed to the example of the immigrants and using, I think, a 16 millimeter and then do you need, if you had shown the class screen capture version of it, what do you know, did you ever try that first of all and do you think they would have gotten the point that it would have been a discussion of immigration or it would have been laughter? Have you tried? No, no, I actually, I've looked at screen capture versions, I've never seen one that I thought was ready to be brought into my class. Maybe I should do it as an experiment for this rulemaking but otherwise it wouldn't serve them well and I've looked at it, we have screen capture available and the wide information commons, we tell people about it, it's not used that often because it's just not up to the part, it's not the standard to be able to capture. And our classroom time was down. Has anyone else tried and failed, not gotten the reaction that they were aiming for, not, can you give me an example? No, like I've tried to use camcash to take clips and it doesn't. Okay, but you've shown them to the class when it does work and had failed to elicit the point to, No, but I mean I can't, it doesn't take it at all it just makes it all black no matter what I've done. Okay, well sometimes it has worked and that's how, okay it has worked and then, but it's failed in the classroom setting. You actually acquire the video, maybe you had a diminished quality than you ultimately desire. But I think it's important to remember that, what they're trying to do is teach, right? That's their objective. And spending a lot of time figuring out every possible software, I mean it's, you know, we have an education crisis in this country and so the idea to make it more difficult, especially at K-12, now when there's a simple solution out there that's not gonna cause any harm to instead say, okay let's come up with, make put a burden on all these teachers who are not technologists to figure out all of these ways that they can do to get to the same point. It just, it seems to me to be really short-sighted. Can I just ask, what kind of DVD ripping software do you need to do any of you use and it's not a statement against interest at this point and what's the cost of that? DVD shrink on Windows, it's free, and a handbrake on the Mac, which is also free. Yep, I use handbrake, it's free, it's free, you can, it's very fast, the quality's very good, you actually get better all the time and you can, you can choose short portions. The Blu-rays are more complicated, one I have not used, but I've read about it, it's called AC-SOM, I don't remember the spell it, but that also works like handbrake and you rip short portions, not, you know, sort of the entire work and create a copy, a small copy. Here I have one more question, that's about various versions of screen capture, I've noted that it's been part of the discussion in these proceedings before, and have you re-evaluated, it seems like there's improvements in that technology, have you re-evaluated in what frequency? Yeah, so screen capture has definitely improved in the last three years, but it hasn't kept pace with technology and it's not even up to the place we would hope to have been three years ago. I was working with a team of students at American University and together we tried a number of different programs, including Camtasia and Snap Z Pro, or Snap Pro, whatever it's pronounced. We tried different settings, we were using top-of-the-line equipment, and still it's just not, it's not the same quality that we had by using a team of people. I think ultimately for me, is it's the time that you spend capturing, I think that gets lost a lot, the amount of time you spend capturing. To rip a DVD or rip a CD, I think you overstated, ripping a CD does not take, it's not instantaneous, it takes time and it is a deliberate action, and so the time you spend to do that is substantial time as an educator, and as a person who may have 25 students in a lab, it is a substantial amount of time to do the screen capture. I just wanted to respond in terms of the, we demonstrated, the screen capture software program, it was used by a real teacher who demonstrated real-time here on A11 on how it was used, I don't think it took an enormous amount of time, and he had done the other home, and he had other copies for integration into his classroom presentation, and it was perfectly satisfied with that. I can't speak to why temptation didn't work in certain circumstances. The lab that we employed uses it regularly and finds it perfectly acceptable, and told us, respond, that it was equivalent quality and usability to the replay that was done. All right, well, we actually feel a pain if we're going to blow our, finishing some time. I'll just have one tiny, tiny remark tonight, because I just, and maybe this is obvious, but I feel that sometimes this gets lost, which is that understanding in mediated classes and film classes where often professors are probably showing lots of clips or different movies and need to have those clips immediately available and not queue up, not think the original is a concern, but for so many other educational uses where you're either going to show the entire film or just show one portion of the film to make one point, the original DVD or Blu-ray is always available for classroom use. It's not like that quality product is banned from the classroom, so I just wanted to remind everyone that I'm good at film. Great, well, that takes care of this particular panel. We may or may not have a follow-up question for you, so the messages don't call us, we may call you now. If not, the record is closed. We are due to start back at one o'clock, it's five after 12, so let's say 1.05, but we've got a busy afternoon, so we do need to start precisely at 1.05. For those of you who want to eat, there is a cafeteria on the sixth floor, which is better than it was three years ago. Thank you very much.