 Live from the MIT campus in Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE covering the 12th annual MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of MIT CDOIQ here in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, Peter Burris. We're joined by Joe Caserta. He is the founder of Caserta, which is a consulting firm that provides strategic services for CDOs. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, Joe. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. So you were just up on the main stage, giving a talk about the convergence of the two CDOs, the Chief Digital Officer and the Chief Data Officer. That's right. Talk about that a little bit and just what you're seeing right now of, as you said, the convergence of these two. Yeah, sure. I think it's pretty telling of the times that we're in. We've been talking data for decades, but now we're giving it a real purpose. Data always used to be a backroom operation, and now it's really coming to light because the Chief Digital Officer, different from the Chief Data Officer, is really responsible for the customer experience. And what we're finding is that the customer experience is best created based on the behavior patterns of the customer in the past. And the only way you know what that was was through data. So understanding the data, getting insights out of the data, and using those insights, not only for decision-making, what we've been doing for decades, but really for driving the behavior of your business application and affecting the customer experience. And that's fairly new. That's pretty exciting stuff that we've never really been doing before. So do those two executives need to have a cohesive strategy together, or could it just be one role? No, there are two very different sides of the brain at work. The Chief Data Officer is really responsible for keeping everyone safe, figuring out which data assets are relevant, and establishing those data assets, maybe enriching them with other data, coming up with a single truth. And then the Chief Digital Officer is more of like how to use that data. So the Chief Data Officer thinks more like strategically the enterprise level, keeping the data consistent across all different applications, and the Chief Digital Officer thinks really solely for the advocate for the customer, to think how is the customer thinking, how can I improve that experience, and how do I keep them coming back and engage them using data? So it's at the end of the day, they're still approaching the same assets, but they're approaching them from two very, very different angles. So would you say that the Chief Data Officer increasingly is going to be viewed as the steward of data assets, and all the processes and activities, the operational processes and activities associated with that, and the Chief Digital Officer increasingly is going to be the steward of digital engagement, and then she will use a subset of the total available data to perform that function. Is that kind of how you're thinking about it? Yeah, and the analogy I used in my talk is when we think of convergence, and I used eyesight as an example, you have two eyes that are separate, but when you're looking at something, they need to at some point converge. And when they converge right on target, it's perfect. When they converge too late, then it's a little bit blurry, and when they converge too soon, it's a little bit blurry. And I feel like what's happening now, the Chief Data Officer converges a little bit too late, right? It's, they're thinking very, very holistically, they want to have consistency across the enterprise, and it takes time to do all of that, to establish data steward committees, enterprise data councils, security, or data quality, all of that. And so it's thorough and it's safe, but it's not terribly efficient. The Digital Office, or on the other hand, they tend to converge a little bit too soon, right? They just want to get it done. Their opinion is that if we don't get it done right now, it doesn't matter about the enterprise, because we'll be out of business. So we need to just get it done. And I think the right answer is somewhere in the middle, and that's why I think it needs to be two separate parts of the brain, one is a little bit more creative, one is a little bit more methodical, but they need to start aligning and to come up with that right focus. So I'm going to twist your metaphor to hopefully get to an interesting, at least what I think is an interesting question. So you said they converge. I might say that maybe the C Chief Data Officer is focusing a little bit too far, and the Chief Digital Officer is focusing a little bit too near, but through a degree of iteration, you want them to converge. So today, that iteration is agile. We've got a lot of methods where we do, the whole concept of agile at its fundamental is, you're agile, you're opportunistic, you're imperative, opportunistic, empirical, and you're iterative. So is that a common new set of practices that both sides can use to ensure that they are being appropriately opportunistic based on where they traditionally focus, while at the same time using empiricism so that they can, of course, correct, but being very iterative to make sure it happens fast? Yeah, I think one of the challenges, historically, is Chief Data Officers, they are happy to iterate once the foundation is built, but we need a foundation to iterate upon, otherwise it'll collapse. And like drawing that line in the sand to say, okay, now the foundation is built, now we could start iterating. That's been challenging. It's been very, very challenging, where the Chief Digital Officer tends to generally come from UI experience, where agile is in their blood, it's in their veins, it's very, very, they think very differently. So getting them to align on when is it okay to start iterating, and the Chief Data Officer will say, well, not quite yet, right, because we need to first make a secure environment. And all of the different reasons why there tends to be somewhat of a delay in getting things done, I think that's where there's a little bit of conflict right now that I think over time, as they start working together, I think it'll start to even to smooth out and become more of a cohesive environment. I just met someone upstairs where she was the Chief Data Officer that reported to the Chief Digital Officer. And that was very, very unique, but it makes a whole lot of sense, right? That maybe should be the future, right? Is that they should be part, not the same person, but part of the same organization, where most places, they're peers, right? One, they both report to the CEO, but they both have their own agendas, but now when they have the same agenda, or with different responsibilities within that agenda, I think it makes sense. Let me ask you this, or that the Chief Data Officer is responsible for the portfolio of options and the Chief Digital Officer is responsible for choosing them? Yeah, except for to create that portfolio. To make that list of options actionable, I think it would take too long for the Digital Officer. Digital officers tend to know what they want. They don't need options, they know what they want. They just need to build it. And I think having the alignment between the data and the digital, I think, just to have really fast speed to value, that needs to be first and foremost for the Data Officer. Where? For the Digital Officer. No, it already is for the Digital Officer, right? Oh, okay, okay, so the Data Officer has to change their perspective to get time and value and information. That's right, exactly, yeah. So I want to talk to you about the two personalities that you just described, because you are a consultant and these people are after all human beings. That's right. And you're describing this very creative, strategic, visionary person. That's right. And then a much more risk-oriented, let's keep everything buttoned up. That's right. So how do you get these two to work together? I mean, is this one of your biggest challenges when you're going into a company? Yeah, it's funny, people kiddingly call me the data therapist. I love it. It's good to be in your business. That's right, yeah. Because it is, it's all about people and getting these people to align. And it's very, very important. And when I was learning business analysis back in college, they say systems are not complicated. It's the people around them that make them complicated. And it's so true. Really understanding the different personalities that you have to deal with and getting them all to align is kind of like therapy. And just getting them to understand, it's almost like marriage counseling too, right? You have to get them to understand each other's point of view and get them to compromise. And in my talk, I actually talked about, it's called the CDO compromise. Because, and depending on which CDO you are, you both have to make a compromise, right? Either we just a little bit longer till it's like a safe environment or speed it up a little bit so that we can deliver. And exactly how to do that is a process that we're still working on, like it's not figured out yet. Will we always need both? Or if they start to align naturally and the practices sustain that alignment, will they collapse into each other? No, I think they're both full-time jobs, right? I think most CEOs can keep a set of books, but you still need a separate CFO to keep after the books, right? And the same way, there's a lot of CFOs that can run a business, but you need a CEO that can actually run it day to day. And I think it's the same type of thing. The chief data officer's job is never done. And to add the chief digital officer responsibilities to it or vice versa, it's just too much for any single brain to handle, especially since they are so left brain, right brain, oriented, there's very few people that can actually do both, right? To be creative and also have a rigid methodology in how you do your business. So this conference has been going on for 12 years. You've been a sponsor of it for five. What keeps you coming back? I love the energy of it, and I love to see the growth. I actually see people coming back that were not CDOs in the past and are CDOs now, so it's working. And I think the best way to make the whole spectrum of data to make it grow and actually become something worthwhile is just to share your knowledge about it. So that's what I do. And when I did it five years ago, there was about 30 of us here, and now there's 330 of us here today. So it's definitely growing, it's definitely working, and I love the energy behind it. Finally, what is your piece of advice that you are giving to the aspiring CDOs, either digital or data officers that are talking to you at this conference that maybe you met five years ago when you first started coming here? I think do some soul searching and figure out what is it that you're good at? Like what is that thing that you're really good at and just pursue that? And don't worry about what the label is or how long it's going to just do it and just be great at it. And as long as you're doing something that you really love and you're great at it, you'll be successful. Well, Joe, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It was a great conversation. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. I'm Rebecca Knight for Peter Burris. We will have more from MIT CDOIQ in just a little bit.