 Good evening for those of you elsewhere, and maybe morning for those of you in yet other places. Thank you so much for joining us on think tech Hawaii. Love to have you with us for more candid discussions, difficult conversations to make good trouble with some wonderful people to do that with. In a particular order, retired judge Sandra Sims and author working on her second book, and very strong community activist and community service orientation. In Maryland with entrepreneurial background arbitration mediation conflict resolution background. And then Davis in Charlottesville Virginia of all places after years teaching at the University of Toledo School of Law. And recently at the University of Illinois Chicago campus School of Law, and now at Washington and Lee in Virginia, and also well known for international experience and expertise, including in Paris and other European locations. Welcome all of you. And Sandra you very kindly offered to start us off with poem from a sister in Ghana, right in Ghana, and it's an honor of thanks Chuck and this is really quite a week that we're beginning. There's so much going on in the world I'm sort of feeling a bit, you know, disconnected and this disoriented like so many people are. But I was involved in a project with my local links chapter we did a partnership with a group of women poets in Ghana. And we did a poetry exchange where each of us would write a poem and then the other would pick up from that poem and continue with another was a project that lasted several months and it ended up public we published a book called sisters across oceans. And it was edited by Dr. Catherine Takara, who in Hawaii is a well known author and professor and, and publisher of a number of books so the poem I'm reading is called words, and the author is Celestine. Nudanu and she is up. She has published an anthology of Haiku in Ghana, and several, several poetry books but this was the poem that she wrote for this exchange. And her poem began with the last line of her partner's poem, which was no man should be should be silenced with a knee. And the title of the poem is words. And let me put my glasses on so I can really see it. No man should be silenced with a knee, nor with guns, nor with the word for the freedom to breathe is a given and freedom to express should be free, like the very air we breathe. The doors are powerful. So is silence, and so is the will to be heard above the den of the silence. When silence becomes golden, it loses its luster, as one people all over our words must be the voice for the voiceless as poets, our words must break taboos, crack whips and ceilings, reach out, unbend those knees that stifle the very air that we breathe. For breathe, we must. That's lovely. And what a great way to start off honoring International Women's Day week. The theme this year, we're all wearing purple to honor International Women's Day. Sandra has even taken it to another dimension through the purple lens. Maybe that's what we should have called it. The theme of this year. Correct me if I got it wrong, Tina is breaking the bias right in a bias. What do you think that's intended to evoke the theme break the bias it's actually six points involved in the break the bias thing for this year and it's related to inclusion and encouragement for women. To be considered artist society, and I'm going to share with you that the six areas that were outlined one is building workplaces where women thrive. The second is elevating women creatives. The third is improving equality for women in technology. The fourth is empowering women's choices and health. Number five is celebrating women foraging change, excuse me foraging change and the sixth is forging women's empowerment worldwide and as was read in the poem. This is an example of women creatives speaking, giving truth. Making, making uncomfortable conversations, part of our dialogue. Breaking the bias can be interpreted in a number of ways I attended a webinar a few days ago and it was related to specifically women and law, and it was talking about bringing women associates and how do you make them partner. How do you encourage that career path, but it also applies and I thought about this as someone who has been in the information technology field for years. Opening that door and saying, you can do that, you can be that computer programmer you can be that product manager you can be that VP, or that CIO CTO, that's leading a team, and you look around the room and you're the only woman in the room. Garner the respect and I've heard in the past and I've been talking about International Women's Day now for about 20 years I thought about it a few days ago. And it has grown in momentum and there are some who said, oh, International Women's Day is about putting men down. No, it's not. It's actually about saying we are a community and it's people like Ben Davis and Chuck Frumpton who make it possible for us to be a community where we all thrive. So this is this is about, again, looking at using the boat metaphor, when there are water rises, all the boats rise, it's not one boat versus another. So knowing that those those six principles so six platforms. I'm sensing those are key pillars in your life and your motivation as well. Pick one or two things that you've really focused in on really dedicated yourself to that serve those. Well, I have really been focused on empowering women, whether that's women who I work with women who report to me, or women in the community. I'm giving them voice giving them the support making those networks making the introductions. Sometimes it's that voice of encouragement or that person who's just sitting in the room and saying you can do this. And when there are people around you who are telling you for whatever reason, you can't. It's that one small voice that you need says you can do this. And I endeavor to be that. Sometimes it's not through words sometimes it's actions just showing up. Yeah, it's it's sometimes being that person who says, What are you doing? It's making that that donation there's a young lady that I think of that when I lived in the North Texas area was very much interested in the United Nations and she was in school, and she wanted to attend a conference. And I didn't tell her but I paid her conference fee, her entrance fee and she said, you know I got a phone call and someone pay for my entrance fee do you know anything about that. Okay, I'm going to say it publicly I lied and told But I wanted her to go because this was a once in a lifetime experience and from there, she has gotten much further involved in pursuing her dream and that's what the the empowerment about pursuing that dream where others are saying you can't say you can you can. Exactly. Exactly. I recall correctly, China. That's been true for you as well, right. Absolutely. I wouldn't be here if it weren't for others. And today's especially pulling it from me because if my grandmother were alive today today's her birthday. She'd be 9596 years old and I wouldn't be here because of her. You know, so it's, it's paying it forward but also remembering where I came. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's an important phrase it became kind of. Maybe even overused a little while ago but maybe it's a good time to bring it back that for people to to vote themselves to paying forward those six pillars, those six. Yes. And you had some thoughts. I mean, you know, when as she was as Tina was describing that and you know going through her experience I I'm a little older so I, I wrote my letter this week to our senatorial representatives, my letter of support for justice to be justice to be President Haji, Jackson Brown. And it was a very, very emotional thing for me. When I heard the announcement that he said, you know, President Biden had nominated her. I cried. I was stunned that it had that much of an emotional impact on me. You know we've been hearing about him talking about doing it and you know it's sort of a. He could, that'll happen. But when it was actually said, you know, it hit me in a place that I just did not think it would. And, and it had to do when I and when I wrote to Senator Hirono, I explained that to her. And from that generation I started law school in the 70s, and there were very few women, there were very few, you know, folks of color made very few black folks, and models that we had, like you talking about, you know, really considering those have that have paid that price where people like Judge Constance Baker Motley, and to, you know, for here in Hawaii for Patsy Mink and Pat Psyche, and just between there was so few, and to think that we have come to this place. And because these women, you know, we were always the, I know, from my career my entire career is pretty much been, you know, being the first, then the only the first and the only as as Senator Hirono that's her been her experience and so many of the, you know, women that I know who are of this time we're, you know, breaking out going through all kinds of barriers and cracking doors open and so forth and so when I wrote that to her. It was just, it was a very, very emotional thing to feel like at this moment, there is actually going to be the very real possibility that a black woman, a black woman will be named to the United States Supreme Court. And I told her that when she is confirmed and sworn in, I'll cry again. It's that it, you know, for that can say for the time that I've, I've been a part it's just, there's been so many barriers like Tina has mentioned that, you know that we had to break through. There's been so many allies and people who have assisted along the way and certainly now we're in that position I am Tina, been all of you in that position now to really pay it forward and that's, and that's, that's what's happening. And it is so of the horrid things that are taking place that is the one thing that is really, really heartwarming to see is to see so many women helping women so many women's organizations, raising money, we're about to do our own thing with seroptimists in a few weeks. We're just learned that we are on that day we're going to be presenting something like 20 awards. We're looking at $50,000 being distributed to help women pursue their dreams, and it is, it is so exciting. And as we look at International Women's Day in March being Women's History Month. It really is a time, you know, to look at those ideals and those, and those principles and do our part, continue to do our part. Being grateful for those that have opened paths and doors for me. I think about that. And that the biggest door that was open for me was from Justice Hayashi. I was a law clerk for Justice Hayashi who was a Chief Judge for the Intermediate Court of Appeals here in Hawaii and again like you say there's you, there are the allies and they are there they've always been there and so that's just my story for today. I'm a little emotional about that though. That's the reason. It will then you've been a scholar and professor on the Constitution and the courts, and all things related for decades now. What's most striking most impressive to you about the nomination of Judge Jackson at this time in this way. Yeah, it's funny. I had, I listened to a program in honor of a very great scholar, Carrie Manco Meadow, the Texas A&M had on Friday, Dave Wilkins spoke about some of the surveys in the legal profession. And there was one thing that struck me, in particular what he said which was, it was sort of surveys of black women lawyers were showing a generally a great satisfaction with the substance of the work they were doing, but there was a great satisfaction with the rewards they got for that work. It was like discontinued. I thought it was a really interesting. Disconnect way to describe this sort of way. And so, part of me looks at her nomination as being, I assumed that she was raised on the, you have to work twice as hard to get half as far. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. And where she is, I have to think of just what was the twice as hard. If this is half as far for her, you know, and this like how extraordinary she truly, she truly is and at the same time I also have this feeling like they're particularly for black women, I would think, but that the substance of the work she enjoys and the rewards that she will get will finally be about equal. I mean, they were already good at the Court of Appeals level of the DC Circuit, you know, but it's like, this is someone who managed to get both of those things, which has been so hard for a lot of people to actually get, you know, you hear about the people leaving the profession at various points and times, especially in the big law and things like that. Yeah. And that's kind of, you know, so I just wear, you know, the idea that you can get the kind of rewards that you merit and have the pleasure of the work, I think is kind of a message I get from her for anyone who's out there to maybe go into their boss and say, you know, you need to give me a raise, you know, because the rewards have to be commensurate with the pleasure of the work, you know, I don't know, but I think that's kind of a thing that struck me about her. Yeah, sort of, yeah, sort of a coming full circle and connecting all the dots and. Yeah. There's an interesting survey. I hadn't seen that survey of women's black women's level of sort of dissatisfaction with the before, particularly in the private firms I think you see it. But those that have engaged and, you know, have chosen I think and you're seeing that now to this kind of pulling away from that and finding ways to be of service. That's kind of the focus that we're seeing and Tina you're certainly a huge part of that as well. We're seeing a lot of that and I know Louise was isn't on today but you know that's certainly a huge part of her work in and many women who women attorneys now are really, really taking that I don't want to taking that message back that says service is what is important. I think there may have been a time and probably in my early career where the, because there was so few women and certainly some very few black attorneys as well, that was sort of this push to be a part of this discussion in that, you know, in that kind of corporate sense but also coming to this place of, you know, our core service. Our course to our communities, and to providing that kind of help that we can give and that's, that's kind of that's coming full circle and of course, it's a part of that it is service. It is absolute service as well so yeah. You know the thinking about some some of the discussion also that they was about the notion of professionalism right in your role as a professional, what does that mean me what is the image of what professionalism is that you're sort of buying into, as opposed to sort of who you are, you know, in other words you trying to act like something you're not because you have this vision of professionalism looks like this or that. And, and that, you know, a lot of times about people. What was it, I think it's Oscar Wilde quote where it said something like be yourself, everyone else is taken. That's a good one. It's an absolutely good one. You know, and you know the ability to just be yourself act what you're doing so there's like a coherence, you know. I think that's one of the things that that, to me at least resonates from her and the way that she, she is she is who she is, you know, and it's, you know, there's, you get that feeling from different people at different points and times and, and that's a lesson for everyone too, you know. Authenticity. Yeah, we're seeing more and more of that in the perfect and not just in the legal professions but in the professions generally I think. Early on, and I guess I'm just sitting here revealing my age for early on there was always this sort of move to be. I don't like using this term but I can't think of anything else is, but, but to be like the males that were proceeding and, you know, and to adopt those standards kind of putting away the things that aren't that were at your core, you know, as a, as a, as a female attorney as a woman. And I think that's kind of changing a lot. A lot. I mean just by looking at the, you know, changing atmosphere in the, in the, in the workplace with regard to issues like you know childcare when I was coming on there's no such thing as childcare at the workplace. Taking care of children was your problem you had to figure that out. But, you know, that's the that's the time I grew up and was like, don't bring those problems to us you figure it out. And that's changed so much. Yeah, my youngest my the tech person you saw she attended one of the first workplace childcare centers that was established here in Honolulu preschool was at City Hall. Well, very long time ago. But no, no, wasn't that long ago actually so that was just beginning I mean the notion that you would have a childcare center at your on the work site itself. Yeah. One of the things that I really love is this idea of having childcare at assisted living places with with the old folks to folks with the kids I've seen some of those. It seems to me that that works really well you know I mean for the old folks and for the kids you know I mean we don't you know so why do we think of them separately you know it. I don't know it just was something that moved me that you just see the sheer almost like, you know, I don't know what is it sort of like quasi grandparent moment for for a lot. Yeah, these kids and you know things like that in that we could change Lord knows there's got to be a way for this country to figure out that it's got to pay for childcare for everybody everywhere, you know, I mean, it's just, I hear this. I was talking with my students the other day about, Oh, you know, spending $10,000 on childcare and they're like, No, not 10, you know, that childcare is going to be you know $25,000 something, maybe one full salary of a two income will be just to take care of the child. I think that's insane, you know, it's just, but, you know, there, I live in France a long time, you know, you had to go down to the mayor kind of talk a little but there was a place right there in the neighborhood where kids, maybe he's all the way up to his point of school, you know, could go and big relief for a lot of people with women who are working and their husbands to that there was, you know, we didn't necessarily have the grandparent avail sort of thing. So, but we're getting there, we're getting there we're moving. I think, you know, Tina, you're probably seeing a lot more of it than than I get to see but that's that's changing a lot. I think it is changing and then to your point. It's the infrastructure, it's, it's how childcare is is now considered part of the work infrastructure, whether that is having a lactation room, a wellness room, whether that's having daycare on site. I think that's something I have to go pick up my child. And no one says, well, how old is your child and that's not that's not the issue. The issue is I've got to go pick up my child or, you know, I need to be off camera my child is not feeling right now. And that is becoming more the norm and less of the the anomaly. And so I think we're getting there it's the pressure as you mentioned Sandra to be one of the guys and instead saying you know this is who I am. This is who I am authentically and coming to the table with that. It's no longer a matter of there's this is still the standard that people are looking for but the pressure to be cookie cutter and I'll pause because check it looks like you want to say something. Hey, no we're just we're into our last couple of minutes I want to give Ben a chance to share with us fast. Yeah, really. But I wanted to thank you for incredibly important insights that what we're really talking about and what the six principles Tina articulated, and the nomination of judge Katanjee Brown Jackson represents, and the other one of the highlights that you brought out is connecting the core values and the core choices in the ways that they need to be. After four years in which we saw the opposite, whatever your politics may be. One of the things that's striking is before judge Jackson's nomination, Senator Lindsey Graham went out and you said, you know I could really get behind this potential nominee from North Carolina here, in my state and if that's the nomination I can pretty much assure they'll come through with it's not going to be a whole different picture here. That didn't work. The choice for the right reason reflecting the right values was the choice that was made and I want to suggest that behind that, and at the core of that. I believe, probably were both the first lady and our Vice President. Yeah. Do you have Maya Angelou's poem ready for us. Well, I want to say this is for the judges she goes through a confirmation hearings and all the craziness is thrown at her because they will be crazy to see just the marathon, just to watch it I see. Maybe just whispering this into her ear if she's listening in the ether. If you write me down in history with your bitter twisted lies. You may try me in the very dirt but still like dust I will rise. Does my sassiness upset you. Why are you beset with gloom, because I walk like I've got oil wells pumping in my living room, just like moons and like sons with the certainty of tides, just like hope springing high. Did you want to see me broken bowed head and lowered eyes, shoulders falling down like teardrops, we get by my soul for cries. Does my heartiness offend you. Don't you take it awful hard, because I laugh like I've got gold mines digging in my own backyard. You may shoot me with your words you may cut me with your eyes. You may kill me with your hatefulness but still like air I'll rise. Does my sexiness upset you. Does it come as a surprise that I dance like I've got diamonds at the meeting of my thighs. I know the huts of history shame I rise up from a past that's rooted in pain I rise. I'm a black ocean, leaping and wide, welling and swelling I bear in the tide. Leaving behind nights of terror and fear I rise into a daybreak that's wondrously clear I rise, bringing the gifts that my ancestors gave. I am the dream and the hope of the slave. I rise, I rise, I rise. Thank you so much. Thank you all. Judge Jackson, may you soon become Justice Jackson, Tina, Sandra, Ben. Thanks. Guests, listeners, come back and join us again in a couple of weeks. Thanks for being with us. Take care. Best to everyone. Alright.