 All right, we are live. I do think we're live. All right. Hello, everyone Welcome back to for the minions the weekly show where we talk about predecessor over Prime and Ethereal and we got a lot to talk about This week, I think uh, the question has been answered a lot of people have asked this question throughout the years Why don't they all just combine to make one game? And we know now that predecessor over Prime are two very very different games If you don't like one then you just you just go play the other so I don't understand why people are still angry, so I'm your host the man goose joining me as always is my friend and co-host jelly knees. How you doing jelly? I am fantastic man goose happy to be here. Happy to talk about these games and are they our experience so far of Over Prime and predecessor and with us again. We got the Viking Jedi welcome back the Viking Jedi. How are you doing? Hi, dude. I'm too blessed to complain. It's been fun playing both the games actually for different reasons And I know we'll go deep into that But no, it's been a great week been really enjoying the early access of over Prime this last week And excited to see, you know, how the pole went that the main use put up and talk about that and Jump into a little bit of the news that's coming from all the studios that we usually cover So it should be a fun hopefully not too crazy of a spicy week But I guess we'll see Usual and joining us this week. We do have Sarah jog. Thank you for being your brother. It's always a pleasure to get to hang out and talk to you Yeah, happy to be here I Was sick on Friday, so I'm muting myself so I don't cuff into everyone ears when I'm not speaking and Yeah, I'm really happy that we can play Paragon the over Prime again Yeah And a good morning to you kid death So I think we're gonna start off with a predecessor this week because I think most of the conversation is going to center around over Prime's Just have their early access started this week and for predecessor We have two things mainly the road map. Oh, let me switch the view. I keep forgetting that Thank you Shut up go I Did the thing I remembered we'll be talking about there Okay, I got you we talked about the road map which I think is a pretty exciting stuff And then they did a video about a controller sport Which I think was a kind of a smart move from them if you know you know so this uh to this road map It's gonna it shows you what they plan to implement Over the next over the first season shows you all the heroes that you can earn shows you that one of the heroes is going to Be their own original IP which is interest and some of the skins that you're going to get along the way And it shows you that you're going to be able to to earn the premium currency in game Which is which is kind of nice so um What do you guys think of this this roadmap I personally I'm gonna put this out there before you guys start slamming it I think this is exactly what we've been asking that for from them. Um, we finally got it. I think it's presented quite well I think these are reasonable Expectations that they'll they'll reach these goals They did put the disclaimer at the bottom to cover their ass like no we may not hit this. I think that's fine Also, I think it's fine that they didn't have specific dates for any of this because I think you're just setting yourself up for failure If you put a specific date on your road map, so all in all I am pretty darned happy with it Viking Jedi, what do you think? So I am overall agreeing that I'm happy with it. I do think it's great to get a road map in general Let's just start with that. I think it's nice. I'm excited for the December January February March updates. I think those are really cool I'm really excited to see Countess Revenant Shinbi and eventually we get Huntress I think that's super super fun cool to know that those are you know realistic time frames for the guys The other thing I'm really stoked on is the end of season rewards. I think these are fucking cool I'm really really stoked on that. I mean the profile icons whatever, you know, nobody can really Complain too much. I think about an icon who gives a shit, but the Countess skin and a free huntress skin So their first IP character and IP skin. I think that's super cool. People are gonna want to fucking grind for that I'm excited for that kind of grind. I think I'm gonna be grinding for it. I'm sure you guys might be grinding for it I think it's really really exciting The only thing they don't really mention very well in here is like, you know What like the costs of things are going to be when it comes to other types of skins that they might be releasing and stuff like that So that's still kind of up in the air The features plan to release during season one. This is where I think I disagree with mangoes I wish that there was more of a general timeframe for some of these things because I think some are easier to implement than others and you can give I think Blocks of time hey over the next Two to three months. We expect to be able to hit these things so that way for example like custom games We know for a fact people want to play custom games in this They want to you know Do era matches or they want to put host their own tournaments or get community involvement and stuff like that Not having a realistic idea for people who are really really amped about being able to put together those things to make Sure that they're high quality and coming, you know from a place like, you know, we saw in the gtg Tournament that was put together That that's a bit of a bummer I think not having a realistic time frame for those guys to be able to plan and put those things together So they can actually put together really good content Some of the other stuff like is like buffs and like, you know for like fang tooth and like that stuff like our Improvements on camps and all these other things like I still think you can give realistic time frames on those things So I disagree that that about the Lack of clarity as far as what is a priority like even if it was just a priority Let's say this is what we're mostly focused on like we really want to hit console In the next six months or in the next three months So that way we can stop hearing people bitching moan about you know console win You know, they got a little bit of a console fix by you know having their updates for the controller support through the video Which I thought was really smart, but uh, yeah, so that's my take on it I know jelly also has a fairly strong take on some of this I might have stole some of the thunder from some of these items, but what did you think jelly needs? I think overall this is really good like mangu said this is what we've been asking them for right is a defined timeline of events Right and and telling us which heroes not just a hero is coming But these are the heroes that are coming. I think is also super cool to have So those players can get excited right mangu says a shinbi player can be like february. That's my month dude Like that. Yeah super super cool idea. I think that that's fantastic I agree. I would love to see the features planned during season one Maybe put under each month of like we're aiming to have Custom games in december. We're aiming to have match and details in january, right? And kind of segment them that way to get a little more information but not hard deadlines necessarily But I it's hard to say uh, that Being safer is a bad thing Right. It's kind of like I in being greedy. I want to know that information of rough timelines Yeah, but you guys playing it safe by just saying in the season as a whole these are the things we want to accomplish We're fine. I get it same thing with the disclaimer, right? The disclaimer is kind of like a cya thing But at the same time from a business perspective, I go like I get it though. Like yeah, it's hard to Say like we will have these things and then when you miss it Then what's what's your recourse whereas now you can at least reference back to it and say like but we put a disclaimer Which isn't gonna help people but at least you have a response. Yeah um I think I think one of the Things that makes me most nervous about it I wouldn't say that it's a evidence of anything necessarily, but it just makes me nervous Is their roadmap from their last test to early access The features on that roadmap did not get implemented That's true In complete form and there was no disclaimer on there. So maybe that's why they added the disclaimer, right? But that and that was eight months ish of time between the two things So if I'm being skeptical, it's that we don't have a good track record so far of following roadmaps But I am excited to see how they progress through this roadmap over the next four months Overall, I think it's a good thing that they released this I and I would say I want the same from overprime In a of these are the things we're working on going forward even though they have less Systems to implement. I still think it's valuable to add And of course bearded disagrees immediately with our take on more and more time frames I so I think I mean I can be the same way that jelly is I can understand from a business perspective on why things are a little bit more ambiguous But as a consumer and as somebody, you know thinking about from the player basis perspective I don't care about your business. I want a game understanding I want information so that way I as your consumer Feel like I'm in the know just as much as you guys are behind the scenes of what it is that I'm supporting What it is that I'm playing again. This is not a free to play game. This is a paid to enter into game So giving your player base a reason to want to log in giving them an understanding of what you're working on for this early access Point of view. I think it's super important and giving time frames gives people a realistic like You know mouth feel something to chew on because right now Other than those hero releases There's not a lot to chew on like again if I'm a customs game guy like and that's a big thing I see it in the discord all the time You know people wanting to put together games and you know work on like fun for fun modes within their own communities And they don't have that yet It's hard to build a together a community without just custom games alone Not to mention all the other quality of life fixes And so not giving those people a time frame. I think it is a detriment I think that hurts the business in the long run So you want to appease to as many of your consumers as possible some people like bearded might look at and go I don't care about a time frame But there's going to be other people to like wait when am I going to be able to do this? And if I don't know when I can do this But I can it then I just gonna put a sour taste in my mouth and I think that this point in there Maybe I'm wrong But I think they need to be you know Reducing the amount of sour tasting people's mouths about it because it's already a very bare bones early access experience from my perspective I'll hard disagree about the time frames, but uh sarah jong, what do you think? fair I like the Road map. I really like what features are on there, but that's jelly already said When we keep in mind what they did in the last eight months And I don't even remember the roadmap they put out I just look at the difference from the last test to the early access. I don't see a real difference I really don't think they're gonna put out all those features that they have on that list I hope they prove me wrong I really hope that Yep, because I still want both games to be good. Mm-hmm and as of now Predators lacking the features That they put on the roadmap that they want to have there And it's great to have them there, but until they actually Prove that they can put them out My hopes are not going to be too high up there. I like um I like that they're giving us something to grind for because right now there's The only reason to play pred is because you enjoy the game And I think that's a very rainbows and unicorns fucking answer is Because like it in real life people want to feel like they're accomplishing something Yeah, I do like that They are adding some sort of progression and giving some people a reason to play the game other than because They think it's fun because I mean the game is fun. Don't get me wrong. I would I would probably still be playing it without This stuff however with this stuff I will probably be playing a lot more because it gives me something to play for It is a fantastic and I'm gonna say this and I don't mean it as negatively as it sounds It's a fantastic band-aid fix to the problem Right in that great. We don't have a progression system in the game right now, right? I can't play I can't when I get to level 10 just automatically earn that countess profile icon or the countess skin right or anything like that But at the end of the season they can go back and say okay If you reach these thresholds now you get rewards It's delayed rewards, but it is still something that offers that progression system feeling Even though it's not directly in the game quite yet And my curiosity is less so in the the progression peers themselves But it says that they will reset player account level at the end of the season And I wonder if that's if that's for two different reasons. Is it because every season is going to have a Earnable tier system like this where depending on what account level you reach you get bonuses accordingly Or is it because they're resetting they're going to have player progression in the next season So they're resetting so that you everyone starts at zero to get the full experience of player progression From then going forward and I think either one is valuable, but I'm curious to see which It's more leans into When the second season comes around it can be a place where it's both, right? Like it could be just both answers are correct and and I don't think that's wrong I do want to address something in chat because uh, mr Medz kind of took my own point and used it against me to prove the point A counter to it that he said, uh, jedi said we can our consumers not investors. We aren't entitled to any timelines But I agree with pilgrims take right after that you are entitled to whatever you want You're the one paying for the game So we are investors in a small sense now I don't necessarily agree that players just because we want shit means that they have to give it to us But it doesn't stop us from wanting it and that's where I'm speaking from I'm not saying that they have to implement it because I want it But if enough of us want it They maybe should listen if there's it, but they can still say you know what we don't care Plenty of games where I've been blue-balled by them wanting to do stuff And guess what I still fucking logged in and played their stupid game because I Did you do that game and predecessor can absolutely Probably get away with that with the the big majority of their you know their fan base But again when I'm thinking about branching out to the larger consumers and trying to get more people involved having a more realistic time frame of features being added that they desperately need I think does help Um, and it won't hurt them. I think in most cases But again, I'm not the one running the game So I do think too that with this with them putting this information out I think it's going to actually sell more copies of the game Because if you know that revenants coming like maybe you didn't buy it because the revenant wasn't in there Maybe you didn't buy it because shimmy wasn't in there now that you know You know who's coming I think some people that are hardcore fans of certain heroes will be more likely to purchase Early access now, which is only a good thing for pred So I'm I'm just generally really happy with with this from them I'm not always happy with everything. Uh, oh, man, it's so do yours does as far as their business decisions They're their games good their business decisions kind of fail sometimes this time I'm I'm all aboard. I'm all aboard this one. Um, so the one thing I want to talk about that came out with this, uh Uh road map on their website was the full blog post detailing everything about it It wasn't just the image itself There was a full blog post that went into a little more detail on some of the items Or a vast majority of the items rather The big one that that stuck out to me though was talking about how balance changes. I think it's I'm trying to find it really quickly Um balance changes will come with new heroes when they drop And that is concerning for me because waiting theoretically a month between balance changes Is a long time if they're bad balance changes, right? Think about crunch right now if we are waiting until the end of december to Drop countess and theoretically a balance patch that means crunch is going to be a monster for the entire month Which is detrimental for them and their players Right if I go into every game and I'm getting dominated by crunch game after game after game after game There's a likelihood I stop playing right we need at least Small balance patches to keep balance in line And bring crunch down or bring mutilator the item down something like that Because Otherwise you're going to lose players to imbalance and they may never come back because they found something else to play in the meantime Um another thing that omina did this week was they put out a video specifically talking about their controller support and aim assist and I think that was extremely smart of them Because their main competitor right now over prime does not have controller support You have to finagle some fucking backdoor shit in order to play over prime of the controller And um just judging from that poll that I did today a lot of people were saying that they Pick pred because it has controller support So I think that was a smart decision on their part to Highlight that they do have controller support and maybe bring a few more people in to them use um Use the hype surrounding over prime right now to draw more consumers to their game by Showing them something that they have that that their competitor does not That was a smart move The video was done well, too Like it's not it's dumb enough for a guy like me who has no desire to play controller because uh mouse and keyboard forever but uh You know if you are one of those guys and you're like the controller win and you want to play on your mom's You know 30 year old laptop and play predecessor You know you can now set up your controller to be able to play on on on the laptop or whatever So I do think it's a benefit Especially for the hardcore Paragon fans like the old school paragon guys that played on console and was a big part of the success of paragon Being able to come to predecessor, which I think matches a little bit closer to the old school paragon Have your controller and you're fucking aim assist because you can't aim like a normal person You know because you're playing on a controller. You know good for you. You should be stoked I should put I should put you in a conversation with low and you you can hash it out about controllers Hey aim assist dude, that's probably the biggest When you have because this is the thing you can you're playing on on pc with a controller that gives you aim assist And and to me that's just that's when I you're not playing against other controller players who are also using aim assist You're playing against mouse and keyboard guys who have to hit skill shots manually And that's in these types of games. It's it's extremely difficult and uh, I think Predecessor has a lot and I mean a lot of skill shots That makes it very difficult if you have aim assist Game over dude And you're not going to tell me that there's not going to people who figure out how to fucking port a controller That is actually a mouse and keyboard to take advantage of fucking aim assist. You're crazy Because they do it in every game All right, um Serious on jabby thing to say about the controller support before we move on No, Chet I said everything that I would All right So, uh, I think that's going to close it out for pred. I'm happy to have had some nice things to say about them time But uh, we are going to move on to over prime where we have some nice things to say and some not so nice things to say I do believe So the over primes early access came out this week In between the the taping of the last four the minions and this for the minions It's been a lot of fun. There's been a lot of bug fixes, but we had the um, the monetization debacle as jelly put it on the uh on the outline and then um, just Monetization in general has is seems to be there Achilles heel now However, I will say I was one hundred and thirty Five percent expecting loot boxes to be in the game and they're not there. So I'm like, okay I mean that at least there's that at least there's that but the monetization has been a little Little crazy, um It was really high at first and then they dropped it down By like 30 but still even with 30 a 30 drop is still fairly high and um And that came off to me as uh, I think somebody um A captain tanuki when I was talking to him about he did his calculations Um, but you know, how long it would take to do the heroes and stuff He said it felt like a black friday sale where you mark everything up just before black friday Just so you can mark it down on black friday Uh Which I think I said that maybe it was in vikings chat What he was streaming this week of like it There there are people that were upset that they lowered it because it felt like They did it so quickly that that means they were planning on lowering it anyway But waited to look better to look benevolent for the community And it's one of those things they're pretty easy value changes, right? Like it's you know, like you need a five five day conversation about like, well, can we change these? Well, do we want to change these? No make the decision change the values call of the day So whether it was intentional or not is what it is. I think they are Paragon skins the epic assets are ten dollars Equivalent for their kima Whereas their proprietary assets are sorry, there's seven dollars now. That's after the change right seven dollars before For seven dollars now and then their proprietary skins are twenty one dollars Um, so there's three times the price of the normal skins. They don't really have a tier system outlined super well yet um, I think that Is exactly what we were asking for from prior to the sessor in terms of epic assets regardless of tier Being a lower price than legendary assets Right that that for instance undertow gideon Is going to be a seven dollar skin. Yep compared to Uh chrono shinobi. I don't know what the actual name of that I think it's called timekeeper or something. I don't know something A chrono shinobi is a way better name. Yeah, it is. Yeah Is twenty one dollars right and there's there's Well, twenty one dollars is a lot and comparatively I looked it up. I looked up Paragon's pricing their legendary skins So undertow gideon were fifteen dollars in game But so the pricing is a lot for twenty one dollars, but getting epic assets for Cheaper right not saying not charging me twenty one dollars for undertow gideon I think is a win when we've seen These other companies take advantage of those free assets and mark them up At the same time. It's a double-edged sword, right? There's there's Unless they're free The community is not going to be happy or not all of the community is going to be happy But if they're free the company is not going to be happy, right? If they have to play this game of finding the balance and at the bare minimum I like that they're just they a that they got rid of loot boxes because they had loot boxes before and they got rid of them That's a bonus and b that they are at least pricing these skins Lower than their own skins of the same tier theoretically And and there maybe is an argument while I still don't agree because I do I'm more in the camp of I don't like paying for epic skins and you know But they did upscale them to an extent. They made them look a little bit better Not a great necessarily in some cases, but they're still better overall than I think they were originally Out of the box, which is saying something there. You're getting a little bit of something. You know what I mean? It's not just a one for one um But uh, yeah, I I think my thing is my and I think the community agrees that you at least online Is the grind for the characters? It's not unheard of it's been done in lots of MOBAs But I hate it anyway I just don't think it's I don't like that It's going to take me an umpteen amount of hours to get to the point where I have enough characters to play ranked Or I have to do what wolfie did and spend close to a hundred dollars to be able to get All of the characters that you need to be able to play ranked And because of that right now there are people who are trying to play ranked and fucking can't get a lobby Because there's not enough people on each of these servers to be able to actually get a game together And so I I think that that's to me a big detriment So you have a whole game mode that the vast majority people who want to play it can't fucking play it And it's just because they're not willing to spend a hundred dollars on epic You know characters I would totally understand you having to pay for their their new ip release Character but all of these epic characters dude. These are not new. They're six seven years old at this point Like just let people have them or grind for them, but in a way faster pace or A pack how the fuck is there not a pack to just buy them all at a cheaper amount than then individually It's this pisses me off probably the most I'm okay with bugs I'm okay with monetization of of skins because skins don't matter skins don't make you better at the game They just look fucking cool if you want some self expression or whatever Sure buy skins Characters and being able to access some characters because you paid money and other people haven't and they're still doing the free rotation That fucking matters dude It's almost arguably a pay-to-win feature being able to access Characters that not everybody else can because you have money and they might not and I fucking hate that I just think I think it's predatory Personally, this is me Giving them as much as I would give any other company because I don't like it I think it's I think if you buy one of their legendary tier 4 skins, which are all fucking amazing You should just get that hero 100% agree with that too. I think and that's that's where I think there's a huge amount of predatory nature going on Is you can buy skins for characters you do not own So if they're on free rotation zina right now on free rotation I could buy the zina skin and I don't own zina if next week She's not on free rotation. My skin is just wasted money Because I don't have the hero to play that skin anymore And I think that is super super predatory Because you may think you have the character unlocked and buy a skin for them because you've been really enjoying them To find out then the next week you don't that bothers the fuck out of me But I will say for ranks it is not just a character thing that you have to have the characters to play ranks You must also be level 10. Yeah. Yeah, buying the characters is not the only stipulation to be able to play ranks I think um So relying here on a good note A lot of their just flat recolors that you could pay jeremy renters for Are just like They're they would be like a straight up new skin in paragon Like um, the dreamy dancer should be skin. That is a complete change from her original outfit Like it's there's no character model changes But like she's got like tattoos and she's got like riding on her ass and like her hair color is changed It's like it's not just a recolor. It's like full on That's the same way with counters tracking the color wheel from one side to the other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah um, the the muriel Recolors are fucking amazing. Like they almost look like brand new skins. So there's the upside there. There's the There's the upside. What are you giggling at? I'm not looking at chat You've been thinking about the muriel skin and predecessor compared to the muriel skin. Oh god. Oh god Okay, I talked I talked a lot a lot of I said a lot of nice things about predecessor tonight So let me get that off my chest. I've been enjoying the shit out of muriel lately Her fucking skin that you get with the with the package in predecessor is dog. Shit. It looks like hot fucking garbage It looks like fucking baby vomit green Ugly looking I mean, it's all aesthetics. Like I'm sure some people would probably prefer that over but I mean I look at that compared to mint chocolate chip for uh Muriel and over prime and it's like Why the fuck would I ever want this fucking puke green skin? I'm not gonna have this fucking awesome shit But anyway, sarah dog. What did you think of the uh monetization that dropped with over prime? um Yeah, well, it's it's a rough topic Um, that's fair How should I how should I put that? We've been talking to the devs and everything And obviously I can't really disclose what we've been talking about but I think everyone agrees that They are Obviously not used to the western market Because while I think that the monetization Would not actually be a big issue in the asian parts in the western We don't accept the way it is And I think that I mean I Don't mind the prices for the skins because skins are cosmetics Yeah, and I personally I'm not much of a cosmetics person. I I play most heroes with default skins and I'm like Whatever, I don't care but the heroes They are pricey you need to grind a lot and we told the devs that This is scaring of people And it's also limiting people for like they can't play ranked like literally because they just don't have They're 15 years old. They don't have 100 bucks on the side to buy 10 euros simple issue And easy to fix like Give some renar on level ups or whatever. Oh, that's a trick. I forgot about that Dude not getting anything for fucking leveling is stupid as shit It's one of the things we suggested that they could change like I don't know Thousand renar on level up a free hero on level up whatever do something It's it's not that hard to like make it easier to get those 12 heroes initially And let's be honest Once you have like 15 20 heroes and you play ranked and whatever you'll get your renar in anyways And it doesn't matter if you have 50 heroes or just 30 heroes But for now when there's what? 26 heroes. Yeah, I'm not sure It's 27 27. Yeah, I've seen I stare as well You know With 27 heroes, you need 12 heroes and you need to grind for Six weeks if you're not playing 30 games every day You're just going to be grinding casual games with five stacks playing 10 15 minute games and Whoa, I feel called out We've been yeah, but what if what if you're not in that five stack then you're You're gonna be getting them jeremy's a hell of a lot slower then Yeah, well, especially if you're ffing by the way people Up a great one too a free hero for doing these tutorials. Yeah, don't even not even including xena right include epic heroes Yeah, just be like Okay, I played gideon in this one. Maybe I keep I liked gideon. Let me buy that. Let me get gideon for this tutorial Let me right like there are better ways to do what they're doing But I think sarah jog hit the nail on the head too of this is very eastern priced Stuff Yes eastern games are very similar to this original pricing model Comparatively to western games and they're hearing more of the complaints from the western audience. I'm sure I'm sure Uh, I do want to say thing is something and I'm going to preface it with saying this Is I don't really want to get into like comparing one game versus the other because I think Most of the the anybody who's looking at this objectively can see now Especially that these two games while using some of the same assets are very very different I don't really want to get into the to the to the place where we're having to say one is better than the other And the other one sucks because it doesn't do this or doesn't do that I think we can have conversations as a community and want to see different things addressed for these other games And not because one has it and the other one doesn't or whatever and vice versa There's some drawn that you can make but I still feel like it's just going down a really bad hole So I'm going to get that out of the way chat But I do want to dress bearded wolverines comment about saying so is it better to have a ranked mode that no one can play Or to not have a ranked mode for the time being and I would say that it's bad both ways I think having ranked mode that you can that you can you can't play now But you can't you know is there is waiting for you is a benefit Not having a ranked mode at all and not knowing when you're going to have it is not a benefit and it hurts both ways But but also seeing a ranked mode that you can't fucking get to Because the road to getting to that ranked mode is so fucking far away feeling That sucks too unless you want to spend a lot of money and to Sarah joggs point Yeah, there's a lot of kids and younger people who may don't have a lot of disposable income I have fucking disposable income. I'm not I'm 39 years old I can afford To spend money on this game if I wanted to but I fucking hate it so much. I'm not going to I'm going to grind it out and I know I'm not alone. I talked to soul reaper in my chat He said it. He's like and he's a ranked guy. We all know soul reaper dude He wants to fucking start grinding and get to those top spots like he did in in the test He's not going to do it. He's going to grind it out and wait until he can get them all just like the You know the average casual player and I think that's a huge detriment when you have a guy on his platform You know, he streams to close to 100 plus people and he can't play ranked He can't be an ambassador for your game in a competitive environment And I think that hurts you and and I think they need to address that right away They need to fix this this grind for the characters. I just think it's dumb. I think it's a it's a missed opportunity I would disagree with you only if I have all the characters I need to play ranked when I hit the level I can play ranked at Sure If I hit level 10 and I have all the 12 characters that I need to play ranked Then I would disagree because yes, you can pay for it. You still have to grind to that level 10 If you're If you're grinding to level 10 that that's where it'll feel the worst If I hit the point where I should be able to play ranked That the game is giving me all the green flags saying yep You've hit the right level requirement, but I am still six heroes short That's really really bad because that will feel extra terrible Whereas if I hit them at about the same time even maybe a game or two within that threshold I think that's perfectly fine because that tells you that they want you to understand the game You're playing before you go into a ranked match I agree it sucks for people like soul reaper who who are built more around that competitive aspect And I would much rather be playing competitive than quick battle because quick battle has been all out stomps 99% of the games that I play Yeah, either one way or the other right? Yeah Yeah But at the end of the day if their system is set up that I am at the level they want me to be at And I have the hero requirement to be able to play competitive at that moment. I do not think it's as big a problem The sneaky businessman part of me says that I think when you hit level 10, you should have 11 heroes unlocked that way Like well, I might as well buy this 12th one I I'm right there with you though. I because I'm like nine and a half I'm like right there about it to hit level 10 But I won't be able to play ranked and I know it's a feels bad already because I'm already sitting here going like Fuck man, and I fought myself. I'm like sitting here going like man. I could just buy it You know, and it's not that big a deal for me You know, you don't order out food, you know a couple times this next month and I can afford it But it also just I hate it so much. I'm not going to I it pisses me off It's it's just not a consumer friendly. It's not gamer friendly The grind is so bad Like especially if people are ff-ing as much as they are like people are full on just quitting the game at 10 50 or at 15 minutes of the fastest you can right And you don't get any any jeremy's for that, you know You get fuck all for it basically especially if you're the the quitting team So if your team ffs and you didn't want to because you're trying to get your anar It doesn't matter you get zero because you ff-ed at 15 um Well, are you guys ready to move on to just actual talk about the actual game itself actual gameplay Senator jog did you have anything you wanted to add to the monetization before we move on? No The rest of you that's okay. I my last thing I have on it is I wish they gave some heroes for free Right now you the other than the initial five you get for logging in the first five days you play Which I think login bonus big plus right? And I like I like the idea of being rewarded for just logging in and playing the game playing a game each day Totally fine. Love that um, but I the fact that there's Right now only 27 heroes, but in the future will be significantly higher And I will if I started playing the game day one I have zero people unlocked other than the login reward that they give me on the first day So I have one That is that is it feels bad Almost every other game when they charge you for heroes in these games they give you Six to ten out the gate that you have unlocked immediately That no matter what you have these six to ten heroes to pick from and then a free rotation Yeah, and then you have free rotation afterwards. I would rather see them lower their free rotation But give me six to ten heroes for free Just off the bat Because then I only have to unlock a couple to be able to play ranked Then it doesn't feel like it's as bad that I have to pay for heroes to be able to play A lot of them Right, and then I just have to get to level 10 by level 10 I'll have two more heroes unlocked no question and then I can play ranks. No problem But they they're not giving any heroes for free. I think is where a lot of this is Accentuated in how bad it feels I mean the free rotation is fine for casual But it comes down to wanting to get into ranked And the and the other thing that jelly pointed out like buying a skin because you want to You know look different or you like the character and you want, you know We want to support the game or whatever you don't own the fucking champion if you buy the skin So it's it's it is it's gonna feels bad for people who didn't know that if you bought the skin You didn't get the champion because there's nothing outlining that too and I think that was that's a that's a missed opportunity Like some people might be like oh I can buy the skin and they might be assuming that they get the character for free as part of it and you don't I will say our good buddy Sean Connolly made the mistake on the first day of buying a bunch of heroes That ended up they ended up giving out for free or putting on free rotation. He messaged them Um, they gave them all his money back like wow Damn near damn near immediately So if you do make a mistake like that if you make the mistake of buying a skin and you don't own the hero Then realize that you're kind of fucked out of that skin Just mm-hmm. You know send in a send in a ticket and you will probably get refunded I think that's That shows their their development and commitment to the community as well Yeah, right that they're willing to a refund money for people in that situation And be listen to the feedback that the way they the way they do right when they hear I mean within 24 within 12 hours We got a patch changing the monetization of the game because people were upset Yeah, right. I think that is massive by itself Uh bearded incorrect. You had the fey and the fey was always considered a support slash me um I think I think that's probably it for monetization. You guys want to talk about just actual Gameplay because I've been having an absolute fucking blast with uh with over prime like I We've been we've been playing together a lot of We made the joke last night. I'm a bit of a whore. I'm out there playing with all kinds of different people but um You are this guy. It's been it's been a really great time I've really enjoyed the game a lot of the but like I didn't know if they're going to be able to address A lot of the bugs that they had in the final beta test. Those are addressed. Um I I do want to address one bug and it may be linux a linux problem But it's the funniest bug i've seen thus far Is we've been playing with somebody in mangoose's community who had a bug last night and then again today where their cooldowns went on an 18,000 second cooldown For their abilities went on an 18,000 second cooldown and that was just the funniest thing to me Have you shared a screen and sure enough all of them eight 17,900 Like his auto attack was also like yeah, there plays on linux for some reason though He had to kill himself on a camp in order to be able to Well, no, what was funnier is jelly had to run over an aggro a camp for him because all of his stuff was on The cooldown so he couldn't even aggro his own camp to fight it So he could get killed and apparently that works So if you do get this random fucking bug because you're a weirdo playing on linux or something You have to die to a camp and it maybe we'll reset it but uh, jalei linio I do I do both I'll play with friends just for the fun But then I also solo queue just so I have a good understanding of what the solo Same here But yeah I've been streaming all week. I think gaming it's been super fucking fun You know the joke about me playing wow because I it wasn't having fun with predecessor I haven't touched wow since I played started playing overprime So take that with how you will And and and again, I don't want this to be like oh pred is bad and overprime is is better I just think that I enjoy the way that the overprime plays more than I enjoy the current version of predecessor, right? Um, I think that overprime could benefit a lot from the things that predecessor does well And I think vice versa is is uh true for predecessor Even still though I overprime just has all the things that makes me happy. I I I just like the pacing of it I love the team fights. I like um, I you know, I like The the laning phase the the post 20 minutes is still not great But it's better than it was in the last test Most of the bug fixes. Holy shit. Did they really get down and deep in there because I love playing xena That's my girl. I've been fucking throwing lots of games into her. She's so much fucking fun for me And that camera bug that would happen when you right click with her and you go sending yourself and then it teleports you back Rarely happens. Usually it's like with weird interactions with terrain and stuff like that Which hopefully they continue to iron out those kinds of things because it happens, but um, I guess my my biggest complaint Obviously outside of the monetization Is the uh ease at which players control There you know people coming in and immediately throwing games Um people being able to just quit and you can't do an early quit like you can't do an early ff If somebody disconnects you have to wait until it's 15 minutes to be able to get out of the game Um those kind of things but that's not necessarily Their fault that it's just a community issue, but um overall I've really enjoyed the game It still has a lot of work to do, but it's it's been a lot of fun Which is what I'm looking for There's an amount and I hate that I'm gonna say this because I'd be the player that would complain about it But they need to make that tutorial mandatory There's so many people that I'm like you have you clearly did not run through the tutorial Right like there's just no way you did because you're Doing weird things. You're running under tower without minions. You don't know how to buy items You're going to the wrong place. You don't know how to ping you man goose Didn't like you didn't do all of these things that are in the tutorial right that You would help you learn how to play this but because you can just quit out of it the second you load in It feels a little bad To have new players come into games where you know They could be washed out or learn a lot more if they just did the tutorial And great that'll be less of an issue when you get into competitive, but it'll still exist. Mm-hmm Stream is getting choppy It did the other night Well, at least on my live review the view that I have it's it's fairly clean um I do agree uh cadet the 1998 there are a lot of people that are like grouping as five stacks And then just meet balling around the map and getting to take advantage of that and just No balling through That type of play which is annoying We had that happen actually in a in a game was it today or yes It sucks It's it feels bad when other people are just literally doing everything to try and make the game You know anti-fun to an extent But we've also had games like we had that 45 minute game I think last night where it was so good back and forth like we're fighting over every neutral You know pushing late it was I thought it was a lot of fun But most of the gameplays the quick plays have been stomps one way or the other now That might be because we're stacking a lot of times But I when I was streaming I wasn't stacking all the time. I did plenty of solos I did duos maybe or trios and stuff like that, but Um, I definitely can feel like if you're going up against five stacks and they're just Making your life hell. It's not a fun time Hopefully that gets fixed in ring like to put out the cherry on said that my two favorite heroes would be OP fey and bread fey That's hilarious and um, live you martins. Thank you for the two dollars He says we need we need it on consoles this year I have a feeling we're going to get at one of them on some console Not this year. Yeah. Yeah, not before january I think within a year from now There will be a console version of one of these games. Hopefully suitor. I would love I would love to see it sooner I'm okay with having it a yeet. You know just yeet it until you tell later Uh until plebs always Uh, I think it's something that overprime can do to help new players now that i'm thinking about it Bots do exist in overprime already. Yeah, right? If you go into a custom game, you can add bots to your custom game That means that a co-op versus a i mode could exist Right that players and and even as part of the tutorial right the step four of the tutorial, which is currently it says in production Right could be a game there. It's you and four bots versus a team of five bots Right because that it already exists. They just need to add that functionality into the tutorial itself And I think that would give a lot of perspective to new players as well before they load into their first quick play game I agree Functionality is there. It's just about implementation There's all we haven't heard from you. Are you dead? No, no, I'm still here. No worry. So how have you been like an overprime? I mean, it's fun and it's pop stumps like 90% of the games are just stumps. It's it's what it is 10 15 minute matches and um Playing a disease on every lane or stuff like that like I've seen so many games before a decision to support It's hilarious actually, but it's not gonna make new people want to play the game Yeah, I don't want to remember I was a dc and they had that Super savorok that said it was his first game and you were typing to him like for five minutes in chat And he just completely ignored us even though he typed in chat that he's it's his first game And he just ran to every lane and died and it was like Okay, you do you And he I think he disconnected after some point, but I'm not sure but Yeah, it's like people like that exactly. How do they even get into the first match without even understanding? The basics of the basics that are explained in the tutorials like it's Yeah, it's stupid that you can just press escape and skip the tutorial and yeah as Jelly or I don't know who's whoever said that with the AI mode Um, yeah, it exists people don't even know that they can't play versus AI Yeah, I mean you can also play with friends Against AI just make custom lobby get your five friends in there at the five boards and play But people don't most people don't know about this feature Like I had so many people in this court say that uh about uh, they have so many bad people and I'm like Well, there's an AM mode they could play And they're like what there is don't know about it I mean, how would you know about it because a new person is not going to make a custom game? Exactly, especially when the training grounds existed or exists Right, there's no reason to go into a custom game unless you're setting up customs, right? Like and there's very few people new players, especially are going to do that So they need some other way of getting players into play co-op versus AI or solo versus AI By that by itself, even if it's like another game mode on the top of the screen That they need something to drive people in there As far as the adc's at every lane, I'm still seeing it But it makes me fucking smile when I'm giddy and mid lane and I see a revenant stepping up or a twin blast and I'm like This is gonna be fun I do want to comment about that because I do because I've been playing a lot of solo lane I have noticed it feels like with the nerfs to especially Murdock and twin blasts who we would see in the off lane a lot Are not as strong and you can eke out an advantage Depending on what melee character you're playing Because they take a lot of damage You have the advantage of being able to attack while moving faster than they can And etc etc and you do a lot more upfront damage Once you're in the in their face But they are still really annoying and strong and that sucks that we we see them But gadget is a big fucking problem and we all know it. I've been tearing gadgets up too mid lane Gideon the buffs the Gideon have been fucking amazing Yeah, but Rangers need to be weaker the first three levels of the game Just across the board I agree If you just made them weaker three the first three levels You would you would get rid of a lot of the attention of them in mid and solo lane Where where these other characters can actually bully them back and keep them off of farm But then put them at a further disadvantage whereas they're safer in the duo lane where they theoretically belong Um, I would say that I'm not optimistic that they're going to make that change Because twin blast was in their early access rules video in solo lane So I don't think they care that much But if that I was them that's the change I would make to pull them back a little bit Because their level one or level one to three is just really strong against people Against normal off laners against most mid laners depending Right, it's just really hard to deal with because they just do a lot of damage in those first three levels And force you to play super safe the whole time Someone's going to have to tie down john snow so they can nerf twin blast a little bit because I'm sure I'm sure if it's up to him They'll never nerf anything with that guy because that's his favorite character Uh, but I I do think that some of the nerfs make him a little bit more manageable, but they still are very very very strong Uh, I excited to see uh sparrow be a lot better than she was. Um, she's very very strong Her ultimate is still kind of meh It's very much more still you have to get really up close and personal with people to be able to get your ultimate But everything else about her feels awesome. She's impressive early, man She is fucking hard to deal with especially if they're landing those right clicks. It's brutal. That's slow when her q is massive Yeah, very very very strong I really don't think it's an eight everybody's talking about adc meta meta if If you're playing against adc's then there's a problem there. You should be stomping them I think it depends on my opinion Yeah, I guess it does depend on matchups Have been team dependent right in coordinated 5v5 games. We saw this with the gtg tournament man gives you right the the Carries did not feel like they had the strength in the game Right, so there's definitely a difference between the solo q meta and the team meta Right or or or competitive meta for lack of better way to put it Right because tanks were what showed to be the most oppressive thing in the tank in the competitive side of things But solo q you see three adc sometimes four if you see them one in the jungle I mean I ran murdoch jungle earlier today and it was not by any means difficult Right, like it was just go in the lane every time they walk up to you press your right click Bash them backwards and then just kite them around the camp until you get the kill Right and That would never fly in a competitive setting but in solo q nobody's coordinated enough Or very few people are coordinated enough to deal with that The main difference between comp and solo q is in comp you have team fights And in solo q you have five 1v1 brawls that you're doing basically Yeah, or for example on the solo lane You just have 15 minutes of 1v1 with the jungler showing up once if you're lucky not me I'm always getting fucking ganked in off lane man. There's always in my lane Yeah, but then again, I play off lane adc and the jungler runs up to me I shot him away and I killed the flayner in the meanwhile because he engaged me because he was like my jungle is coming And I'm like, yeah, well, you can also put up a sign because you're making it so obvious I don't even need a ward anywhere I think that's another great point though of like from and I play a lot of jungle Twin blast and murdoch who are the ones you most often see in the off lane Yeah, their escape potential is through the roof And so the even if you gank and get a solid gank off If you get shot back by murdoch's right click or twin blast dashes away from you And then they have the blink on top of that. They're gone So help you god if you were jumping when he hits you with that because if you were jumping when he hits you You're going back to your tower, buddy I will say though as a tip to all you junglers out there Don't use your engage ability man. Just talked about this in lots of videos We've brought it up all the time dude walk up and just start autoing or use another ability So that way when they do use their ability to get away or they blink away You have yours to be able to come in. I swear every jungler doesn't fucking know that dude They are always wanting to get in as quickly as well. Bro. That guy didn't see you walk in He's blind as fuck. He's still focused on trying to hit me. Just walk up and start autoing bro. Like just relax Other brings up a good point, uh, honestly just watching the map is a big difference in player skill 100% Um Then the thing with over prime 2 is that you don't see people doing is you need to buy wards lots of wards Warden Ward Ward a lot of people complain about Uh, it's a it's a death ball my lanes ganked and let my lanes ganked all the all the time It's like did you put a fucking ward anywhere like You might be able to go like that shuts people down pretty hardcore Like every once in a while you'll get like a four man rotation that tower dives you and they shit you can do But most of the time It's just the fucking jungler coming over and if you have a ward out there to pick them up You see them in the bush you start backing up and then they're like, oh, we'll fuck They're backing up so they leave and go farm campers Yeah, 100% delay. Nope. I'm using engage immediately. He sees first wins Sure So I actually will agree with that voice homie Turrets are a joke nine times out of 10 They're damaged. I think their damage scales a little bit when you get hit by multiple shots But the damage starts off so small that it really only becomes scary when you hit that third or fourth tower shot Right, I mean you guys saw me earlier I was on gadget with Maybe a couple hundred health and I know fear walked under tower to throw out a mine And then walked out of tower range after taking one shot and I had no concern that I was going to die Right, like it was just it was easier for me to walk into tower range and throw out the mine Take the one shot With no fear and I think that's where the problem is that that base damage on these towers needs to be pretty high Much higher and inhibitors are a whole other problem Yeah, that's true Miss the earlier version of the towers where the damage would double every second shot or something like that Yeah, because the first shot was okay The second shot was okay Then twice the damage hurts a little two more shots Like you're already four times the basic damage and so forth like I think I once got shielded for days and was a tank, but at some point it hit like for 2000 with one shot Oh, yeah, no, it's gonna get melted at some point It needs to be way more scary than it is Because nine times out of 10 you can take one or two tower shots If you have a couple hundred health and you'll be just fine See that we had this conversation on the uh, the paragon of the overprime partner thing Um, see, I don't like I hate it when It's the end of the game and somebody's just but fucking their tower all game And just killing all the minions and you just there's nothing you can do about it Like I think you need to be able to dive somewhat Maybe not as pronounced, but um, I think ego put it. Well, uh The tower isn't there to defend you you're there to defend the tower Like use it as a tool if you need it, but I should the tower shouldn't just decimate people I agree with two ones by no means late game should be stopping me from doing anything Right, especially if I'm on like rampage for instance, right? I should be comfortable walking under a tier one And just taking six or eight shots because the tier ones are meant for the first 10 minutes of the game Right past the 10 minutes. I should be out scaling the tower in terms of damage But even in that first 10 minutes towers don't mean enough Yeah, I think one thing they need to address before they change the tower damage is the minions actually reach in the tower In a reasonable amount of time So so clear so fucking slow Minions mean almost nothing in general though. That's right. I'm coming through us and for a long time The only way to get in hips is basically having a tank diving it in nine out of ten times It's just how you kill the in hip you get one minion below it if you're lucky And you have a tank just eat the tower shots for days while that minion is in there and just reducing the Armour of it a little or a spunky muriel Yeah Manga's you've been having too much fun on muriel these last few games Guys, guys, let me tell you. Let me I'll go I'll go flex a little bit Oh, here we played four games earlier out of those four games. I died twice on muriel Yeah, I only got three kills, but I had 45 assists amongst those four those four games And I only died twice But how often did your agc die? I'm glad Hardly ever Yeah The poor button mashing that mangus's keyboard had to endure especially in the game. We're both me and And jelly. We're both playing as caries I'll have a short coming out these guys both I couldn't see green on their health bar I can only see black on both their health bars and they're still pressing forward and the minion waves and enemies W key and left click right and I'm back here just alternating shields shield shield shield shield shield I think god damn I even dashed in to try and get into one of your bubbles that you threw onto uh jelly So I could have the shield too Oh boy Yeah The towers and minions in general need to be fixed in op that's that's the hard truth They're really bad. Uh, and somebody mentioned itemization itemization is terrible in both of these games We've mentioned that last week where you mentioned it again items suck They're not there's like a few of them that are super cool and neat and interesting like being able to turn your Me into a fish so fucking hilarious. It's really fucking great. Yeah, but that card kind of needs north in my opinion Yeah, apparently a two second Uh Blind or face is too long But having a card that everyone can buy turning you for two seconds into a fish where you can do nothing So you can be turned into a fish for 10 seconds. Teoretically, you can move that yeah, you can move But you know what I mean, it makes it it makes you harder to hit Honestly, it's almost a buff in some cases against bad adcs I have that that I'm really welcoming Especially when I'm on like severog or steal a rampage. I'm like, yes, turn me into the fish. Please You could dodge a fish. You could dodge them all I do think it's uh Itemization is the worst for carries because basically if you're not building crit you're you're you're trolling Uh, every I think most of the other characters have a little bit of variety in their builds But not a lot more carries. I think I have it the worst though I think you can't you basically if you're not building crit you're trolling I think if you're playing an aid if you're playing a physical power character You're shafted in terms of itemization because you can either go bruiser or crit. Those are your builds. Congratulations Yeah, I like I said, it wasn't much better, but you have a little bit of diversity, but it's their items itemization in general sucks They need to do a lot better And uh economy and op is also really bad. It still takes way too long to come online when you're trying to end the games at 25 30 minutes and you're only having three items kind of sucks I still disagree, but I'm usually at like six items by that point. So Because you're playing kalari and you're you're the only one on the team though. Like the rest of us are yeah Locking along with three items. Yeah Yeah, well, I'm usually playing enhanced support on the off-lane It's really fun to be a steal on the off-lane. It works great, but you end up with like 30 assist and one kill So you have no gold Yeah Yep All right, um Well, shit, I think uh, think that about covers it for over prime. You guys ready to move on for ethereal Pearl I think so Anything else you wanted about the poll You want I didn't think we're going to talk I didn't put the poll so we could talk about it tonight But we can if you want I just wanted to address one comment that I saw in the poll because I thought it was really good and it Applies to both games. Okay, I guess we jump into ethereal So the poll was uh, well, I'll say I'll say right now the poll was 65 to 35 and favor of predecessor as far as uh Which game people have been having more fun with? Um, there you go Um, the the comment that came from nerd vibes. So shout out to nerd vibes. Thank you so much I mean a lot of the comments were really good and and and To mangas's communities credit everybody was pretty respectful big props Thank you guys for continuing to carry that narrative because that's something I think that's really important to us As the fpm crew is that we want communities that are not being toxic and you know and shitty towards each other Um, you can like whatever game makes you happy. That's how it should be and don't shit on somebody else's serial You know what I mean? But nerd vibes said uh, if I'm being honest both games have been slightly disappointing While pred has smooth gameplay and fleshed out kits It's lack of characters progression systems match details and competitive play keep it from being playable for too long And overall audio just doesn't translate well to what's happening on screen Making matches feel boring at times on the other hand Paragon the overprime has some really cool concepts and the moment-to-moment gameplay feels exciting However, the monetization though improved feels extremely intrusive and progression can get a bit too grindy If you're looking to earn most characters for free Balance also heavily favors ranged carries in both games and neither of them do enough to separate the 3d space From 2d mobas kind of which ethereal was further along I truly think that game has the potential to trump both projects So I thought this summed up to me a lot of how my feelings have been about both studios in both games Um, I thought all almost all of his points are pretty much spot on Do you guys have any additional thoughts or comments about his Take or any of the other takes from the poll? I think the the comments directly about pred and overprime are Spot on right like they just I think they catch they are very concise But they get the point across the one I kind of want to talk about is the separating the 3d space from 2d mobas And the more I look at these games with that mindset the more they both completely lack that element of gameplay Right, the the amount of verticality in predecessor is minimal at best In terms of like separating areas drastically. There's a couple mid lane points There's the direct like way out at the side of the off and duo lanes Right and in the pits you've got that like little three foot gap That you can't jump up to add a little bit of verticality, but at the end of the day It's effectively still the same plane Um, and I think that feels really bad Parag on the overprime very similar thing, right? You've got the occasional areas here and there that add some 3d elements in term in terms of z height to the lanes or to the neutral objectives But for the vast majority of it everything is on the same plane And I think that feels bad knowing what is possible in that space, right? I think Paragon the over primes old legacy map and legacy in general and Paragon Showed what the potential was with those z height differences Because you had those long walkways on the side of mid lane that you could be standing at the very top of throwing abilities down And they weren't the most effective and you didn't have the greatest range on them But if you had the height you could do something about it Or you could create interesting opportunities to gank lanes using those height advantages In the z axis and that just doesn't exist in the new map for Paragon the overprime or predecessors nearly as much Yeah, I agree. I mean there's a little bit of it But not nearly as much as I think most people are hoping for or want I think when you think about a 3d mobile you wanted to feel a little bit, you know bigger in space Some of the the changes have come through right? I think both how it's our ults In both games give you a lot of height and give you that experience of feeling like you're Out there, you know getting an ult always has done that or with a combination of his e But the maps themselves feel pretty Flat overall. There's like a little bit of height here and there, but I do like in over prime at least the The the deer pit being able to go up and around and use that as an advantage So it does add a little bit of height, you know There have been plenty of times where we don't notice that there's a guy just sitting there pelting us Who's sitting up at the top of there like what the fuck where am I getting it? Oh, well shit There's a sparrow up there It's literally raining arrows down on us or something like that So there there is a little bit, but it's not nearly as much as I think a lot of people had hoped for But yeah, and against people in the in the comments like we get that like, you know You might have a preference over one over the other and that's totally fine You're allowed to like whatever game makes you happy You don't even have to agree the the carries are overpowered in both games You might think that it's a different kind of meta. That's also okay This is just one comment that I thought was pretty good And explained well on both sides of things And I also wanted to point out. I don't think that the predecessors gameplay is Astronomically better than over primes. I do think that it's really good gameplay The bare bones of of their game is very very solid, but over primes isn't that far behind it It still feels pretty good to play the game and it feels really good hitting a lot of the buttons Can't always say that same thing about predecessor Especially lacking their visual clarity on a lot of the things that they have in their game So I want to say real quick since we're doing like a little A little curve little curve right now. Um, the numbers for both games have stayed fairly steady Yeah Since the beginning which I am really surprised to see very happy about um over primes numbers are of course higher than um Prez numbers, but pred is a paid early access over prime is free However, so so I don't really want to look at how many people are playing but The number of people that are staying to play I think are have maintained themselves Far more than I thought they would We've seen a lot from all the different close betas for all the different games that usually that first day everybody dog piles in the second day It's like half maybe even a third of that They've stayed fairly set reasonably steady for for both games and I'm really happy to see that That gives me a lot of faith that they continue to be fruitful moving forward and actually build on those numbers Instead of just constantly Yeah, I think for over prime, it's a little too early to call, right? They've only been out a couple days. So the the newness factor is still there Yeah, that's true I would also say is a little too early to call even though it's been over a week at this point um with predecessor we did see a significant drop from Uh all-time peak to current concurrent. It's about a fourth of what it was On steam charts, right? We don't have epic numbers. So we can never talk about player numbers from an epic perspective So it's always going to be steam oriented when we're talking about player numbers directly On steam they did lose about three quarters of that all-time peak player count But they are trending neutral at the moment in terms of Oh concurrent players, right that they're not trending downward not necessarily trending upward But that that is better than what we've seen with past games in this space Right and and similarly so far from what we've seen from over prime They're also in that trending neutral kind of zone Um a couple days in which is good to see for sure Yeah, well, it's also fair to keep in mind one's free to play and the other one's not right So some of those numbers are going to be I think inherently lower just because of the pay barrier But uh the fact that they're consistent for the most part day in and day out is really really cool and and I hope both studios are are Proud of what they've been able to put out so far Because I think that both games are are amazing and fun in their own ways I personally have more fun playing paragon the over prime But that's not to say that I think that predecessor is a piece of shit game And no one should ever fucking download it onto their pc or console whenever it comes out Uh, I think it's it's just a you know, what makes you happy and and I think that's okay And I'm getting more and more confident and feeling like both can't exist in the same space Even though they're always going to have people comparing the two And you're gonna have the weird fanboys in both camps that are gonna like shit on the other fanboys I think that's stupid as a whole thought but um I I think that there is an actual opportunity that both these games can exist in their own space Especially as more of the original ip start to come in for both titles And and that's that's what's got me most excited like looking at predecessor and seeing the roadmap. I got fucking excited I was sitting there going like yes, let's fucking go boys. Like let's let's get this shit going But I also want more now. I want like, you know, I'm greedy. I'm a gamer I want to play your game the way I want it now now, you know what I mean? And so I'm and I'm excited to see what what what direction both of these guys go But that's it. We can jump into ethereal if you guys are ready. I don't know if sarah jog has another thing to say Yeah, sarah jog any final comments? That's fine. You guys said enough I think the perfect transition from Overprime to ethereal is red clown g's comment in the chat We need a hero that can fly a hero that can crawl walls and other verticality game systems I think is a perfect way to transition into ethereal because ethereal has all of those things Yeah, who has all of that stuff ethereal Crazy how that works, huh? For thorough this week. We have uh, they've added cleave systems into the game and We have a uh, um a teaser skin for Nikolai, which a lot of people if you don't know what Nikolai is. He's a small little furry support So jelly I hear it Small little furry support. That's what it is. That's the best description here But yeah, I mean, so the biggest thing this week for sure is the cleave systems, right? We in past tests Ethereal did not have cleave attached to melee basic attacks So when you were hitting a group of enemies that were in the same area You were only dealing damage to one and not the ones that are necessarily around them or a percentage of the damage to the Ones that are around them You can see the video that's playing on screen is is showing that a little bit there And I think it's it's a good quality of life system, right? Especially when you look at tallows Big giant mediacs and he's swinging it through four minions and only hits one of them with 60 damage, right? Like that's just it feels a little weird to see that from a 3d perspective And so having a little bit of that kind of gives you that feel it also buffs the melee heroes or melee myths A little bit more in there in terms of jungling right there They can jungle a little bit more effectively They can clear waves a little bit that more effectively in lane Which comparatively to ranged characters is a good balance knob to be able to have If they're getting pushed in by ranged characters all the time Maybe we up the amount of cleave that they have and now they can wave clear a little bit more effectively And bring those lanes back into more balance, right? It's it's another lever that we can use to bring melee myths into a good healthy spot Or whether it be in the jungle or in lanes While still providing that aesthetic for them as well. And who knows maybe there'll be things that uh affect cleave in the future That maybe people will be able to pick up and use and that's a future announcement I don't think malaya needed more cleavage though I think gadget and paragon the over prime proves that that's a false statement True And then yeah, we've got the harlequin nicolai skin Which is I think just a love I love this theme on nicolai especially right the kind of like barred jester look For him. I think it fits really well, especially because he's a musician. So I'm just super excited for that one especially I like personally at least going into the the harlequin nicolai is that uh, I like goofy skins I like ones that are like, you know meant to just be more about having fun You know what I mean? I'm all for like having like a really cool like edgy theme about one Like in some of the ones that we've seen previously that have been showcased here You know, they've been kind of more on that, you know, a little bit more edgy or a little bit like of the cool factor This one is just funny. Yeah, and I'm okay with that Like I I like a good goofy fun skin that kind of You know give somebody a a bit of a playful take and um expression because you know Sometimes these games take themselves way too seriously when it comes to making the coolest fucking thing out there At all times, you know, this one just it just looks like it's gonna be fun Uh, and I hope and I'm just throw this out there as like a back animation He whips up and plays on the on the loop. Uh, whatever instrument is loop. Yeah, that would be cool So you throw that to the devs and let them know a back animation. He needs to be He needs to be playing that bitch. There it is. That's the sound bite We're gonna use for his recall. By the way is biting them I'll take it right there. Yeah, therial has a good mix of heroes. You got the big beefy boys. You got um If you want an edge lord, you got axial if you want something a little cuter and funnier than you got Nikolai if you want pretty then you got Mila, uh, marina Well sexy you got milaya Yeah, uh, real quick. Yes, we do call our heroes myths in ethereal Um, yes, all of it is original content. So there are no There are no paragon characters pulled across into ethereal at all. It's all completely original characters So it's super exciting for that part But I want to touch on what viking said about the skins That you can have funny skins too, right? We talked about two weeks ago I think it was king daunte and king daunte is a very lore oriented skin It fits him. He is the king of zaria, right? Like he has it's a very lore attached It's a very serious skin and that's okay and it can exist in its own right But yeah, then you can have a jester barred skin for nikolai and be the complete other direction of that And they both can coexist in a game like this for sure. Yeah And I think league has showcased that well, right league has a lot of like goofy fun skins Um, and they also have the very sexy skins and they have the very edge lordy skins and and that's good You want you want to have people to have access to you know, personalization? And Yes, they do all need cute anime girls agree Uh, but I can see a harlequin skin line across the board And some of them are gonna probably be fairly sexy a little risque. Yeah, I'm just saying, you know, Look, you know, we all know harlequin. Let's go. Okay. So, uh, no, I think it's it's a fun thing And I at least personally now granted I could be biased I I just love that the devs continue to and the art team especially Continues to innovate in a space even if some of its borrowed concept like harlequin is nothing new, right? That's something that's been around forever. Who gives a shit. It's fucking cool and it's fun I'm excited to see it. I think it's fun. This when you sent this to the group chat. I was like, what the fuck? I started laughing while I was eating I was it just made me happy. So, uh, things that make me happy I'm going to always be stoked on and uh, play test win. I think it's what Yeah, play test win play test win. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that is what people are asking. You're absolutely right Uh, sir, is there anything you want to say about uh, therial? I mean it's been for ages since I last got to play it. Yeah. Oh Yeah, not great. Even Sarah jugs jumping in on this No, it hasn't been ages for him was fun when I played it which has been a long time ago and cleave Is not is definitely something great to be added. Mm-hmm. I said earlier. I'm not much of a cosmetic guy. So Skin looks good. I guess Care I'm not going to say it's bad skin. Not at all. It's just I'm not going to care about it in in 99% of the chances anyway. So yeah, no, I That's f6. Can you guys go over some more of the pred roadmap if you have time? I think there are some more stuff there that might be mentioning for some who haven't seen it yet Uh, do you have anything specific that you want us to go over? I thought we did a pretty decent deep dive into it But I mean, I guess we could talk about it a little bit more switch over to the pred view If we want to talk about that before we head out for the night. Sure Yeah, and any guys any questions you have for us about The three different games feel free to ask as well. Can you cleave with the loot if Nikolai You will be able to cleave I will not say whether he's melee arranged, but if he is a melee hero, you'll be able to cleave Okay, but okay, hold on if that's arranged. You're able to sing or what? Yeah, hit him with the notes. Hold on though If it can actually be used as a melee I This made me probably way too hard But just the idea of it breaking over time because you're using a loot as a weapon would be hilarious Like by the time you back it's kind of like frayed and like kind of bent a little at a funny angle or something like that That would be hilarious. But again Every time you hit it because of melee Sound like Yeah Okay, uh sophisticated carrot talking about the um The predecessor package. Uh, what what are competitive nights? What are what's that? They might know talk about those in the blog post I'll read it for what they say we can talk about it afterwards This will be a space where our competitive players can play and compete This will only be available at limited times to ensure We do not permanently split up our queues and will allow us to find a good balance between queue times and competitive spaces so this to me sounds like They might have a game mode that they will enable and disable at will where you can do like you're playing comp tonight that you have Four hours that you're going to be able to play competitive matches. That's what it sounds like to me That's what I took from it too It felt like it was going to be like a temporary weekend game mode that they would add in similar to like Maybe adding in an arom or something like that by comp gate nine The other thing they could do too is because they technically have the ability is set up like, you know The custom style without actually having customs spread out amongst everybody. They might host In uh through their discord or something like that where people can sign up for a comp night Where you guys can you know put together your own five man teams and however many teams they end up putting They'll put you guys into a competitive lobbies against each other Those are the theories that I was kicking around in my own head We didn't really talk about comp night that much because there's not a whole lot of detail from them about what it really means So you'd have to unfortunately get in the discord ask the devs what what they actually mean by that And maybe you'll get an answer I do like that they're going to be um taking a look at the fangtooth buffs I think that's a big failing with their part right now because If you're the team that's behind it's hard to get back at it when your first fangtooth Take gives you increased buff duration and the second one gives you some out of combat movement speed that the enemy team already has I think I do like that I think fangtooth is really the thing and we saw this with early days fault as well Is that fangtooth whoever controls fangtooth can win the game nine times out of ten regardless of what state the game is in For at those moments, right? We had a game man goose where you and I we had five fangtoos on our team But we were down 20 kills and just because of those fangtooth buffs We were able to bring the game back and actually push back and win Right the comeback mechanic is almost entirely surrounded around fangtooth and or prime And if you are missing fangtooth And you're already behind the likelihood of you coming back is really really small And the fangtooth being so easy to take that fourth one just absolutely tripping prime Like why take prime when you could take that fourth fangtooth? So i'm glad they're going to be taking a look at that um Speaking of fangtooth just because I thought it was entertaining I went into the practice mode And the fangtooth and or prime just respawn instantaneously after you killed them in practice mode But the buff for fangtooth never stops. So I was getting to the point I was using fangmau in the practice tool and I had like three million damage on abilities Just a pure meme I also crashed the practice mode because I had too many minions hit me at once um, but uh I was just trying to see where I could break it. Of course jellies was in there breaking shit. What a fucking troll um Public api, that's what I know a lot of people are really excited about I know we had our our cautionary tales about it. I really really hope that with the public api. It's more oriented towards um, you know, like not m mr Basically almost everything else is free like and I don't want an m mr reveal as part of the api I hope they do stuff where you can make builds You know, like do item builders Maybe I don't know there's other things that I think the api could help But I just really really really hope they don't go down false range Allowing people to figure out what their internal m mr is. Um, I just think it turns a casual game into now a Toxic shithole Yeah, well, I think it's really fucking toxic not that there's not already going to be toxicity in these types of games Just by the nature of what they are That into itself the public api is probably The one that that makes me nervous about what it is, but I think They're pretty on top of it It felt like um in some of the limited conversations without going too deep into it because I don't want to violate nda I think they're aware Of the the cautionary tales that comes with an api and that's probably why they don't have a time frame for it yet And they want to keep that one probably close to the chest is because it's It's a slippery slope And that wasn't just an issue for pred, right? That was an issue we saw in fault And that was even an issue back in the paragon days when agorada gg Was the main thing that everybody paid attention to because no ranked existed They had few had people going into games and uh like checking agorada gg and oh you're You're a your match history is terrible and b your m mr is awful. I don't want you on my team Let's just get me out of this game really fast and just toxicity breeds from there Mm-hmm Find out more about it. Uh, there's good. Well, they're they're gonna be adding a player reporting an afk reporting system I was blown away that that wasn't in already. I'm glad that it'll be adding that They're gonna be adding a lot of stuff in. Um, we we already kind of covered it for the most part I want to be a diamond triple mangoes, okay I don't that's the lowest rank in the game Oh boy Well, shit, um, you have to have to you have to grind terribly to be able to earn it like Below the default rank that you get so you actually have to go down to get it Yeah, when uh, when you lose 10 games in a row, you have to lose a match to the ai before you can get put in the mangoes class He's losing the practice tool. Uh, I don't know what you actually meant, but uh, that's that's how I took it and that's Thank you And Being toxic in the chat to ai 100% oh that got filled the tutorial See by the mangas rank. Oh I want a specific icon for losing in practice mode now I want to be able to because I if I didn't crash when too many minions hit me I was trying to lose in practice mode to see what happened Oh, but I I want an icon in predecessor for losing to practice mode Well, all right. Well, we need to start closing things down We're keeping Sarge on up way way past his bedtime and uh, I think uh, don't worry. It's only 1 40 a.m Oh I was really like to uh five hours if I'm lucky you'll sleep I would really like to get uh get get some games in tonight. So uh, let's start wrapping things up Uh, thank you guys everybody that's in that's that's watching live right now I'll thank you to everybody that is watching the video later Uh, let's get some mangas and chat as we close things out Sarge dog Tell everybody where they can find you what you're going to be playing and what you're going to be doing I'm on twitch same name as here and I'll probably be streaming almost every evening over prime from now on till I don't know till there are more patches to test on the other games I don't know yeah viking jedi You've been streaming a lot lately. I yeah, I have I so if you guys are interested in watching some scuffed viking gameplay Uh, feel free to join me on youtube. I've been trying to go live almost every day Um, and and put in some some hours. I actually streamed a decent amount these last few days I think I put in six to eight hours. Uh, so if that's something that's interesting to you Also all my vods, I don't de-list them So if you want to go back and watch some of the gameplay feel free to do so Um, yeah, that's that's it. You follow me on twitter. Still it's still a website. So it exists and so you want to follow me on twitter That'd be cool. Um, join us in our discords. Uh, so that way you can talk to us if you have You know comments, but that's it. That's all I got uh, yeah, I'm going to be streaming a lot more. I hope coming through here um Playing these games I'm excited so far to see where we're at and where these games are going to iterate going from here on out So that's the biggest thing that I'm excited to see from them all. But what about you man goose? um, just uh, the The stream for the uh, paradigm over prime partners thing for pop didn't go so well But I did download the vod and um, I will be putting that together just as a video So if you guys want to watch neurone, I lose her goddamn shit about why Overprime doesn't have controller support. That's where you can you can watch that that should be coming probably tomorrow But uh, yeah, I think that's going to wrap it up for this week It's been a fun show We had a lot of good things to talk about and hopefully we continue to have lots of good things to Talk about but now this is the for the minions crew signing off you guys bronze double man goose