 All right, so today's toolbox is really understanding four dynamics in your close interpersonal relationships and how they can lead to conflict, how they can lead to struggles in communication, breakups, divorces, and even worse. So I know for a lot of our X Factor Accelerator members, they joined the program because they feel that they're struggling in their relationships. Sometimes it has to do with their own behaviors and actions and the version of themselves that they're bringing into those relationships and their communication. And sometimes it has to do with the way people in relationships are treating them. So we thought it'd be fun to do a deep dive into these four relationship dynamics or as Dr. John Gottman calls them, the four horsemen, because the more you understand them and yourself, the easier it's gonna be for you to create impactful relationships in your life. And that's in your love life, in your social life, and even in your work life. So if you're listening and you're saying, well, AJ, I'm single, I'm not really worried about marriage right now, still stay tuned and listen in because these dynamics do play out in other areas of your life, even though Dr. John Gottman's research was primarily focused on romantic relationships. So before we jump into these dynamics, I think we've talked about Dr. John Gottman a lot on the show. We find a lot of his principles woven into our X Factor Accelerator program. So Michael, who is Dr. John Gottman? Tell us a little backstory of him and the work that he does. Oh, yeah, I could geek out about Dr. Gottman for hours, but I'll give you the cliff notes. So Dr. John Gottman is a psychologist who specialized in couples research. And he did over 40 years of research with over 3,000 couples. And he got famous for his ability to predict with 90% accuracy if a couple would stay together. And he could do that after just seeing them for a few minutes. Also the interesting thing is Dr. Gottman, he was just interested in researching this. He didn't want to fix anything. He was just curious how dynamics in relationships play out. And it was actually his wife, Julie, who pointed out to him and she said, dude, this is really powerful stuff. Like you should turn this into something and help people, help couples, like utilize this information. And especially his four horsemen of the apocalypse have gotten a lot of applause for their accuracy and like what tears relationships apart. Now these are relationship dynamic patterns that we've probably all experienced. So as we go through them, I want you to think about past times in your life where relationships maybe have fallen apart, have crumbled, have gone into conflict. And maybe you'll recognize this pattern, one of these four patterns in your own dynamic, whether it be as we're going to go through stonewalling, whether it be actually criticism being defensive, these dynamics go in relationships that are not necessarily humming along, but when conflict arises, these dynamics will rear their ugly head. The first of the four horsemen that we want to talk about is criticism. And you might be nodding along saying, oh, totally I could see how this tears apart relationships. Many of us are criticizing, not recognizing the criticism in our communication. We've all been on the receiving end of criticism and know how painful that is, how difficult that is. But sometimes our own communication in relationships will bring criticism to the forefront of our partner, of our coworker, of our best friend, even though our intention is well-meaning. We wanna see them improve. We wanna see them grow. We wanna see a different side of them in the relationship or maybe we miss a side of them that they showed previously in the relationship that we're no longer seeing. But this criticism dynamic, when it comes up over and over again in relationships, it starts to fray your relationship trust for your partner, for your friend, for your coworker. The thing with criticism is that off the four horsemen, this is the one that is the most difficult to spot in yourself. Because I remember for myself, like criticizing people felt like helping them, getting helping them to get better by pointing out that they're doing this wrong and they're doing this wrong. Which doesn't really help the entire situation. There are different ways of giving that same information without actually criticizing. And of course, this follows cognitive distortion that there is a right and wrong way to do things just because you would present yourself in the relationship or you would communicate in a certain manner or you would behave in a certain manner. Doesn't mean that that's the right way to do something. And your partner, your friend, your coworker might be trying to behave in a new way, might be trying to grow in their communication, might be trying to grow in their behavior that might feel wrong to you based on past patterns in the relationship, past behaviors that you've become accustomed to. But criticism really leads the other person to feel less than in the relationship. And you may go in well-meaning saying, hey, Michael, I want the best for you. Like I want you to do these pull-ups the right way. I don't want you to do them the wrong way and not to get your muscles to grow. Or Michael, I really want you to hit this deadline. That's why I'm criticizing you. But in actuality, to be on the receiving end as we know, that really phrase your trust for that person that really leads you to pull back from the relationship, not to feel comfortable expressing yourself fully in those moments. And a good indicator of criticism are these absolutes. AJ, you're always late to our meetings when it's been like one out of 10, right? Or this, you never answer my emails on time. When you find yourself using these absolutes, always, never, and so on, you're probably in problematic territory. And the other person when they hear those absolutes, right? Our mind does not go to Michael, you're right. I never answer my email. Michael, you're right, I'm always late to meetings. My mind immediately goes to the last email that I responded to on time. And I go, you said never, but I have this data point that shows you're wrong, Michael. And now we get in a right or wrong argument, right? Now we're raising the conflict. I wanna say that argument that comes back to that cognitive distortion. So because binary thinking, and that's what it's called, it's either right or wrong, left or right this way or that way or never or always is easier. It's the easy way to think about things because it makes things simple. It's either good or it's bad. It's either right or it's wrong. That gives you clear cut pathways and behavior and how to think. And it makes our job as a human being easy because we don't have to put any thought to it. We go, what's the best way? Oh, well, it's this way. Oh, that's the best way, that's the way I will go. So that thinking correlates then to our actions and of course through our actions, also into our worldview and then into our communication. And so as we grow older, we begin to realize that things are much more nuanced than that and that two things can be true at the same time and that there's many different ways of acting or seeing or interpreting the world around you. But again, this comes back to our human body trying to figure out ways to conserve energy. And so binary thinking is one of those ways. Now, in a work environment, you can understand that if you're trying to get the team on board with a certain outcome or you're trying to get certain processes in place where you feel strongly that there is a right and wrong way by bringing in criticism, it creates a dynamic within the team that others now feel comfortable criticizing others. And now everyone feels the need to watch their back, right? They're concerned, well, if I step out of line, am I gonna get reamed, am I gonna criticize? And that hurts productivity, that hurts motivation. You don't really wanna show up if you're looking over your shoulder wondering, well, is the criticism coming my way next? And with the always and never framing of things, naturally the person who's hearing it is gonna find the data point, is gonna find a reason to prove you wrong. And now you're both in a situation where you feel the other is wrong. So how do you move forward from that? And if this is repeated, you can see it fraying that rope of a relationship. So it's hanging on by a single strand till you don't actually wanna be around that person because you feel judged, you feel seen in a negative light over and over and over again. And we've heard time and time again, oh, just use a compliment sandwich, right? Johnny, you're such a great guy. You never answer email on time, but I really love the energy and enthusiasm you bring to meetings. Oh, come on, how is Johnny gonna respond to that, right? He's not gonna take the sandwich, the bread and that sandwich in any meaningful way. He's still gonna default to the fact that I use never or I use always in the framing of the situation that I'm having with Johnny. So how do we start to adjust our communication? What's the antidote to this situation that we might find ourselves in? So the first thing you wanna do when it comes to criticism because criticism, a form of it is necessary. I mean, if you are in a work environment, you need to be able to point out what other people could be doing better. But the way to go about it is to not start a full-blown criticism attack, but to have a sort of a gentle startup to it. Hey, H.A., there's something I'd like to talk with you about because there's something that I'm struggling with a little bit, easing into this entire thing. And studies show that conversations that start gently usually end gently as well as opposed to dropping that hydrogen bomb of you're always doing this thing and starting the conversation that way. And in that regard, it's also important to talk about the I instead of the you because that's where the finger-pointing goes, right? If I pointed you and I say, hey, you, Johnny, you left your sandwich on my desk again. It's accusation. If I go like, hey, I'm always like, I'm so organized. And if I find a sandwich lying on my table, it's like confusing and I can't like work properly because I want to eat the sandwich makes the entire thing about me and the problems that I'm having with the situation as opposed to you being the horrible person who's creating these problems for me. And look at the agency that created for Johnny, right? Johnny can go, well, I don't want Michael to be frustrated with a sandwich on his desk. So what control do I have? Oh, I can take my sandwich. But if you go directly into you, Johnny, Johnny no longer has agency. It's just an attack, right? He now feels really vulnerable because he's being singled out. He's being called out. And I love the framing of the gentle startup. This is really important because I'm a little bit frustrated. I'm a little concerned. I'm a little confused, right? Just that framing versus always and never and waiting, right? Oftentimes we feel most comfortable criticizing when we've waited for a preponderance of evidence, right? You wait till the 30th late email, the 45th time I'm late to the meeting for you to finally say, you're always this, right? Now, instead of coming to me the first time and saying, hey, it's a little frustrating for me. I have a tight calendar with our X Factor coaching calls and our unstoppable members. And when you're late to meetings, I feel like I'm rushed then going into these coaching sessions which are really important to me, right? Bringing that up and communicating that the first instance, instead of waiting to the 30th, the 40th, the 50th instance, will often get us to a resolution and again create that team environment. Now, if we bring this into the romantic realm, many of us with our romantic partners, especially during this time are spending more time than ever with them. So if you're getting criticized in one area and you live together, you're doing activities together, you have hobbies and passions together, well, all of a sudden you're now gonna start looking for, where am I gonna get criticized next, right? It's not just the trash going out. It's not just the bed not being made. Oh man, now I'm gonna get in trouble for the laundry or the hamper piling up. So it's important to realize that that gentle start creates space and agency for the other person to feel like they're participating in the solution versus they're the problem. And in regards to them being part of the solution, I find it also very useful in turning criticism into constructive feedback by asking what they think about it. So AJ, for me, it's difficult when you're a little bit late because I have these other appointments like back to back, so I'm a little bit stressed. So I'm wondering what you're thinking of maybe we change the time around this, would it help you if so and so maybe we can do plan A or plan B, what are your thoughts on this? And boom, immediately, instead of putting the blame on you, I am the one who's working with you against the problem. It's the three of us against the problem of traffic congestion or insert any other problem that might interfere with the time, the appearance. Yeah, in those moments, I like to blame Puppers. I know, I know. These things, in a relationship context, both parties need to feel that they have a say in these conversations and working towards a resolution which we'll get into in another episode. So the more the other person has an opportunity to contribute to that conversation and the result of that conversation, the more buy-in that you have from both parties. You're getting what you wanted and the other person feels that they had a hand in that resolution. That buy-in is important. That allows everyone to walk away feeling that that was a productive conversation and that both parties got what they wanted. Now, this goes hand-in-hand with the second horseman, which is defensiveness. So imagine when you hear you're always or you're never, well, your mind starts racing to that moment where you did answer Michael's email on time, that moment where I did take the trash out just after Amy had asked me, that moment to you actually showing up for your best friend and not being late in the Uber and not missing the appointment. All of that then leads you into a defensive posture, right? Okay, now I'm seeking for all the ways that this other person is wrong when they singled you out and called you wrong. And this right and wrong thinking, we get in this endless cycle where, okay, you're right, I was wrong there, but here's the three ways that you've been wrong, right? And now we try to balance it in the other direction, even if we do feel pinned down by that one issue. So maybe I have been late to meetings, but now I'm gonna tell you, Michael, all the different ways you've wronged me. And in this defensiveness, we never actually get to a resolution, right? We never actually get to a place where we can constructively build together, build towards repairing the relationship. We create very similar dynamics through criticism and defensiveness in response to it. And the reason we're not getting towards a solution is because we're not, that's not even our intention to find a solution. Like our intention, my intention is to show you that I'm right and you're wrong, and you're doing exactly the same thing. And we can never, like we'll never get to a point where one of us agrees and says, oh yeah, you know what? I was absolutely wrong the entire time and you were absolutely right. So both sides need to see that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It might lean more towards the one end or the other, but it's definitely not the case that one person is 150% right and the other is minus 50% wrong. That makes sense. There's always something in the middle. I think it's also important to understand here that the defensiveness that you might be feeling is natural. You're not a bad person for feeling defensive or looking for a way out when criticism or complaints go your way. We all do that. What is important is to recognize I'm in a heightened emotional state due to the complaint or criticism that is coming my way. That heightened emotional state is making me defensive and it is showing up in three ways. Fight, which is I'm going to go on the attack and start criticizing you or give you, well, what about this and what about that to divert the criticism and complaint my way on to you? Or flight, which we'll get into later. That's another horseman where the person just leaves the situation. Or freeze, which is they play the game with a victim. Woe is me. You're always beating up on me. You always have some criticisms of me. It's always my fault. Oh, well, and I'm gonna now play the victim in hopes that then you'll feel bad for me. Your sympathy and empathy will kick in and you will leave me alone. And that's such a good point, Johnny, because all three of those reactions fight, flight and freeze. What do they do? They narrow your perspective. Like if you're out in the Savannah and you're looking for coconuts and there's suddenly a lion showing up and you're going to either fight or flight, hopefully flight, everything narrows down. And you can think about only one thing and that is escape right away. Escape right away or fight right away or freeze right away. Nothing says, let me look at this situation from both angles and see where I might be a little bit wrong or where I'm needlessly defensive. These conditions are evolutionarily designed to narrow you and make you really effective in either fighting or fleeing, but not like starting to find a compromise. And let's be honest, ego is definitely involved. There's no getting around it. Whether it's our romantic relationships with our best friends, with our family members or even our coworkers, we all try to show up as the best version of ourselves. We're all trying to do our best. We're, unless we're sociopathic, we're not trying to get one over on people. We're not trying to set them up for failure. We're showing up in the best way that we know how. And sometimes that means being stuck in traffic on the way to studio. Sometimes that means forgetting to respond to that email because you opened a nod on your iPhone. Sometimes that means letting the FIFA game roll a little longer and not taking the garbage out right when your wife asks you to. Whatever the reason may be, you're still trying your best. You're still showing up for these relationships in the best way that you know how. And yet we find that ego getting defensive because we've been criticized. And we don't want our partner to think less of us. We don't want our coworkers or our boss to think we're not performing at a high level. We don't want our best friends to think we don't care about them. So this is a normal part of the process. But the problem is when defensiveness shows up again and again and again in the face of any criticism. So how do we overcome this hurdle? And how do we manage this horseman of the apocalypse in our relationships? Well, I think this one is, I think most of our listeners might have already spotted the possible antidote here. It starts with taking responsibility, not for the entire thing, unless you know that the other person is absolutely right. But you take responsibility at least in part. You make that concession by saying, yeah, you're right. Like every once in a while, I am actually late or lazy or distracted, and I don't have a good excuse. Like I'm sorry about that. And on the other side, you also accept the other person's perspective. You're not going into this like, no, this person is wrong. I am right. But it's like, listen and see that there is a certain amount of truth in the other person's perspective and certainly 100% truth in the eyes of the other person. So we need to have that in mind. And then also offer that apology, that honest apology for screwing up a little bit here and there and owning up to that. And not in the primary kind of school way. I was like, say you're sorry. I'm sorry. It's like, no, actually, be honest about that. You're actually sorry. And maybe even add how you think that you screwing up made the other person feel. So I'm really sorry that I totally forgot to answer your email. I'm sure that must have been frustrating for you because I know you were waiting for an answer and I just completely forgot. I'm sorry about this. Now, I was talking to one of our X Factor Accelerator members about this and the power of apologies. Because sometimes we think an apology is just saying, I'm sorry, and then tacking whatever else we want on it. So I'm sorry you feel that way. It's not taking responsibility. It's not an apology that actually moves you out of the defensive stance. It's a defensive apology, right? You're sorry for their feelings, but you're not taking any responsibility of your actions that led to them feeling that way for their perspective based on what you actually did in that moment. So just because you're saying, I'm sorry, whether it's through your gritted teeth like Michael was showing, or whether it's, hey, I'm sorry. If you are just adding for you feeling that way or because you feel that way, you're not actually taking the responsibility that allows you to move out of the defensiveness and again, move towards a resolution that the other person not only feels heard, not only feels validated, which we know from Dr. John Gottman's work is incredibly important to building relationships with others, but also works to rectify the situation. And by proposing solutions, right? Okay, maybe it is something that before I turn on the PlayStation 5, I'm running the garbage out because I know the garbage is overflowing and sometimes I get so caught up in playing video games with my friends that I forget to take the garbage out and then it's there the next morning. Or maybe it's, hey, you know what? I'm gonna check in 30 minutes before I leave on traffic and if I'm for sure gonna be late, then let's just push the meeting and let's work to schedule these meetings a little later in the day because I know traffic here in LA is insane at this hour. So you're taking responsibility, you're apologizing for the damage that's been done and you're offering solutions. So the other person, your partner, your friend, your coworker, your family member feels like, okay, I understand that I've been heard and I'm part of the solution. We're working together on this versus defensiveness, which just leads to the other person feeling defensive, right? It just leads to the other person retreating, digging their heels in and now saying, okay, I gotta come into the next argument with all of my guns blazing because this is not an acceptable apology or an acceptable solution to the issue that I'm having. In regards to the apology, there's a really interesting study that came out recently where most people would say, well, I don't know how I made the other person feel. Maybe it was frustrated, maybe it was sad, maybe it was angry. I don't know how I made them feel. How do I add that to my apology when I don't know how I made the other person feel? And the study looked at the difference between emphatic accuracy versus emphatic effort. And what it found out is that most people thought that the important piece of this was getting the emotion right, the accuracy. But in actuality, what really helped was that the other person saw that there was an effort being made. So I might be getting it wrong. I might be saying, hey, sorry, AJ, I must have infuriated you by this and this. And in fact, you might've just felt disappointed. But the fact that I'm trying to get into your head and feel what you're feeling by the wrongdoing that I've done, that's what makes the apology so powerful, the effort. Yeah, the expression of the empathy is more important than mind reading, which we know is another logical fallacy. We can't read someone's mind, but when we're using empathy to put ourselves in their position, to feel the potential emotions that they may have felt, it adds a gravity to that apology. It adds a seriousness and a sincerity to the apology that allows the other person, again, to feel heard and validated. Because the last thing we want in these situations of conflict is for you or both of you or the other party to walk away feeling completely invalidated, completely shut down, like their emotions don't matter, their perspective of the situation doesn't matter, their viewpoint, their experiences don't matter to you because yours trumps theirs. Your experience is right, your emotion is right and theirs is wrong. So Johnny touched on the third, which is stonewalling, right? So if we completely withdraw, so okay, we're in an argument, Michael is ready to blast me with being late and I just go, you know what, I'm signing off today. I'm jumping off Zoom, turn off my phone. I'm not gonna respond to that email. You're not gonna hear from me until tomorrow. You may think that's a coping mechanism for you, right? Like, oh, if I'm in a heightened emotional state or I'm in a potential conflict, I'm just gonna withdraw until it simmers down. It allows me to think through what I'm feeling and not overreact. But in actuality, that does a lot of damage to the other person in that relationship to feel that you don't care, to feel that you just completely shut down and withdrew yourself entirely from a conversation that's really important to them. And this might also have, like this can happen in Zoom and over the phone and then you just turn that stuff off and I'm pissed at you. But it can also happen in a physical space when we're actually sitting across from each other. Gottman called this physiological flooding where it's not a conscious decision to behave in that way, but where our nervous system is just overloaded. Our heart rate goes up, our hands become sweaty and our prefrontal cortex just switches off. It goes into that fight, flight, freeze response Johnny was talking about. So it's not always a decision that we make to Stonewall. It's our body taking over. And this is why it's important to be aware and to learn emotional regulation. The first part of that is to understand when you're in a heightened emotional state, to identify the triggers that put you into a heightened emotional state. And for a lot of times, for a lot of us, when we are consciously aware of it, it's already too late. It's like a car that is overheating. The check engine light is the subconscious like, hey, you just hit some triggers, you're probably gonna be in a heightened emotional state. But once the car is steamin' and broke down outside the road, it's already too late. The emotions are in the driver's seat and you're in the passenger seat and for you to gain control of where that's going to go is going to be a lot of work. You have to fight through all those emotions. For our clients, it is one of the very first step in the X Factor accelerator for our clients to learn and identify their own triggers and mechanisms that puts them in that heightened emotional state. And let's be honest. Again, to be on the receiving end of the ego bruise, that is criticism, to be on the receiving end of an argument that you weren't expecting to be called out for something that you thought you might have slid under the radar, right? You thought the trash going out at the end of the day was gonna be okay. You thought you got away with it. And all of a sudden, the other person is like, that really hurt my feelings. That really frustrated me. That ruined my day. I have been feeling this way for a while and I haven't been able to say something to you. It may feel very good in that moment to self soothe while this physiologic response is going on to just like withdraw, to cross your arms, to close your body language, to look down, to avoid eye contact, to lower your voice and speak very meekly because you don't want things to move forward. But in actuality, it's doing a lot of damage to the trust that you've built in that relationship with the other person because they feel like they can't vocalize, they can't share with you, they can't communicate with you, what matters to them in the relationship, what behaviors and actions are important to them and how they expect to be treated. AJ, I wanna touch on something you mentioned there about eroding that trust to be able to have these difficult conversations. If you are in a loving relationship or even a platonic relationship that you cherish and if you have these relationships, I hope that you do cherish them, well that you're gonna wanna make sure that the other person fills that they can come to you with anything. And I've talked to a lot of people, a lot of couples who always say, well, me and the wife or the husband and I, we've declared that we always have open lines of communication, that we can come to each other for anything. Well, it's wonderful that you believe that and it's wonderful that you say that out loud, but do you do the work to keep those lines of communication open? Those lines of communication have been earned to be opened. Once those lines of communication are opened, when you come to your partner and they show contempt or defensiveness or they stonewall or they blow up because of the issue that you wanna discuss, well, why is that person gonna feel good about coming to you the next time? So how you handle these important conversations dictate whether those lines of communication remain open or closed. And what's hard and difficult here is if you find yourself having to get outside help, a mediator, perhaps a psychologist or counsel, therapist, the reality is that those lines have been damaged somewhat to a certain degree where you need outside help. Could those lines of communication stay open had these conversations been handled differently? Well, sure. And first of all, relationships are not easy. They are difficult. You work for these relationships. That's why you should cherish them due to the work that you have put in to develop those relationships. And as we talked in the past, most relationships start with us on our best behavior, putting our best foot forward, only showing them our best side. And then over time, the more time spent together, we're all human. Some of those imperfections and flaws in some of these patterns from past relationships come up, from the way your family handled conflict come up. So for me, one of my ex-girlfriends told me that I stonewalled. I had never heard of that term. I didn't know what that was. And I didn't realize that my physiological response to being criticized, to being called out in conflict was to completely withdraw and shut down. And then when I started to unpack that and do the work, I realized, well, that's exactly how my dad behaved in moments of argument. He would get so overheated and so angry that he was speechless and that he would just completely withdraw. And me and my sister had to fight tooth and nail to get his attention back, to get him to reengage with us, to get him to cool off, that's deemed to go away. So I was like, well, now this pattern, presenting it in my father, I see it now in myself. And a lot of these patterns to how we handle conflict, they're modeled for us through childhood. They allow us to feel good in the moment, but they sacrifice the relationship. They sacrifice the person on the other end, receiving the contempt, receiving the defensiveness, receiving the stonewalling. And over time, as Dr. Gottman shows, that's what ultimately leads to the breakup, to the divorce, to the dissolution of the friendship, to you not wanting anything to do with that person. And it's typically not the one action, the one experience, the one conflict. It's the repeated demonstration of these behaviors and these patterns in communication around conflict that lead to the distrust and lead to the other person saying, you know what, it's just not worth it. I can't do this anymore. I don't want to be in this situation because of these behaviors and actions. So you may have been on the receiving end of some and we may be actually doing these two others in our life. And part of the reason I want to do this episode is because when I recognize that pattern in my own life around stonewalling, I'm now consciously aware of it. It's not to say that I never do it. I still find myself from time to time in really heated conflict with my wife, wanting or even starting to stonewall, but it allows me to catch it and recognize that pattern. And to come back and apologize and say, you know what, Amy, I'm really sorry. I realize now that I was stonewalling you and that's kind of been my default response in these moments of intense conflict. That's not how I want you to feel. That's not how I want to show up in this relationship and I appreciate that you're so kind, giving compassion and understanding of these behaviors that I'm working on. Sometimes it takes a coach helping you unpack and talk through the situation to see other pathways to resolution. Sometimes it takes, as Johnny said, therapy, talking it out, bringing in a professional to help solve this, but these patterns come up again and again in relationships. It's not like Dr. Gottman looked at one couple and said, okay, I got the four horsemen here, let's go ahead and publish. This is after looking at tens of thousands of relationships and starting to recognize that these are well-worn human patterns to the way we communicate to the dynamics that show up in these relationships. And stonewalling, because there's the physiological response in the way that we move forward, we have to acknowledge that that's going on and that acknowledgement might mean, hey, let's take five minute walk, let's take 10 minutes, let's do a breath exercise, let's move to a new environment, let's work to get our physiology back to a state where we can communicate comfortably. The stonewalling is really damaging if no resolution is ever found, no solution, no apology, no responsibility is taken, and you just let that simmer. You walk away from it, like you brush it under the rug, you pretend it didn't happen, and you hope if you wait long enough, maybe your partner will forget it. Maybe your coworker won't remember the last three times you've been late to that meeting. Maybe your best friend, is it gonna worry about the fact that you haven't venmowed him back and this is the fourth time he's requested it? When you stonewall, there's an implicit removal of responsibility from yourself. It's just like, I'm just gonna withdraw, I'm gonna go turtle mode, I'm gonna pull back into my shell and I'm gonna wait for a calmer seize here and hope that the other person just lets it slide, forgets about it, doesn't worry about it. And that is so devious because it is a physiological response. Like it's not stonewalling if someone says, okay, this is an argument I don't want to have, I'm going to stonewall now. It's that fight, flight, freeze response that happens with or without us knowing. So like you said, H, like recognizing that this is a pattern and then recognizing that, oh, I'm doing it right now, will often for many people, also result in the realization that they can do nothing about it. They are in fight, flight, freeze response right now. And the only thing they're able to do is recognize that's where they are stuck right now. And that's also where the solution comes in that conscious taking a break. Hey, I wanna have this conversation, I'm not turning my back on you, but I need to center myself first. Let's do a timeout, let's do 20 minutes. Let's spend that time apart. And I promise you, after these 20 minutes, we'll meet here again at this table and we'll have this conversation. But right now I can't contribute to it. So let's just hit the pause button, 20 minutes. I'm going to go for a walk, you can go for a walk, get a hot beverage or whatever it is, spend that time apart with a promise to meet again soon after and then have that conversation. You have to show up at minute 20. You can't say, let's meet again in 20 minutes and then go to sleep and leave for four hours, right? That really damages the relationship. And we talk about this and we actually demonstrate this in our X Factor Accelerator Bootcamp Experience. This positive body language trigger to the physiology. When you're directly facing one another, when you're in a moment of conflict or confrontation and you feel that other person's entire attention is on you like a spotlight is on you, it can trigger this physiologic response and you're just over energized and all of those chemicals are flowing through your body and you feel put on the spot, right? We have a lot of terminology around this exact physiology that we're talking about here. And just by moving to neutral body language and we do this exercise inside of the program where in conflict resolution, you actually go from directly facing the person you're in conflict with to being shoulder to shoulder and allow the conflict to be in front of you instead of between you, you can actually start to see this physiologic response alleviate in that conflict. Even though we're role playing it in the classroom and our X Factor Accelerator Participants are like, wow, I feel completely different. Watching it, you feel different. You can see the tension release. So for Amy and myself, not to drag Puppers into it again, but in a lot of these moments where I might feel that need to be stonewalled, I'll say, let's go take Puppers on a walk and let's get out of this environment. Let's get out of the house. Let's get out of the mall or the restaurant or ever the discomfort or the argument might be going on. Let's take them on a walk. We're shoulder to shoulder, holding hands, facing forward and let's talk through what's going on here. And I found that that has worked wonders for me by moving my body, by changing the environment, by positioning myself next to Amy instead of in a direct confrontational position with Amy. It allows me to work through that ingrained physiological response that I have to like, freeze, back away, avoid. I don't wanna get involved in this discussion. Well, in these discussions, the tension can be palpable. And if it can be palpable, that means that though you might not see anything, that tension is sitting there. So if that conversation continues, it's just going to build and build and build. And the other part about it for us men is, well, and for women as well, no one wants to allow the tension to build to a degree where we lose control because at that moment, we could do something that could damage the relationship permanently if not harm ourselves or each other. And so moving around, taking a break, leaving the room, change of scenery, this allows an opportunity for that tension to dissipate. Sometimes it's the car ride home from the restaurant. Sometimes it's a walk around the block, but it's you also being open and honest and vulnerable with your partner. Hey, I'm feeling this urge to withdraw. You know, maybe it's not labeling it stonewalling, maybe you never heard that term before, but I'm really feeling this urge right now that I need to flee. I do wanna have this conversation with you. I don't want these emotions running through it. I don't want an outburst. I don't want the physiology of what's going on to lead me to act out of character, to say something even more hurtful to you, to let my emotions get the best of me. I care deeply about you. I care about this relationship. I just need a moment to collect myself. Let's reconvene at this time and follow through, right? I mean, that part is so key. You're not sliding this under the rug. And as Dr. Gottman shows, these repeated horsemen and their arrival in the relationship, it leads to the end of that relationship. The other person can't possibly feel comfortable moving forward when these dynamics are at play in every disagreement, in every argument, in every frustration. And when we talk about the last one here, the last one for me feels, it's kinda like the final straw in the relationship. I know he equates the four of them, but I feel oftentimes we get to this place of contempt after repeated appearances of the other three horses in the ring, right? It's like the circus. And you've seen this horse, too many times, you've been to this show too many times, and now you just actually have contempt for the other person. You think less of them. You've taken that vision that you had of they're a great person, they mean well, they really care about you, and now they're low value. They're someone that you don't hold in high regard any longer. And that contempt, much like we're talking about stonewalling, that's also palpable. I've gone to dinner with Amy and we could watch a couple sitting next to us where the partner is just expressing sheer contempt. And it's like, countdown to breakup, countdown to divorce, like this does not look good. We can pick it up on others, but sometimes we're not so attuned to picking it up when it's coming from our partner. And of course it's terrible when it's coming from us towards our partner. And this is not only seeing your partner as someone who has become low value, even more scaringly, you're saying things with the intent to attack and to insult, like you're purposefully bringing these words and are subconsciously whatever it might be, but the point of what you're saying is to hurt. And that's where it becomes dangerous. And for a very good reason, contempt is the best predictor of divorce in Gottman studies. With it being so damaging, with it being probably the one that's the clearest indicator when you're feeling it, when you're experiencing it, when it's going on, that things are about to unfold in a very negative light. What are the strategies that we can use to actually catch ourselves to break the contempt cycle? Because if it gets to this point, we've really reached a tipping point in the health of that relationship long-term. And we wanna do everything we can to keep us from getting to this place of contempt with our partners, friends, our coworkers, and family. The thing here is that when it comes to contempt, you can really only work on yourself. Like when you realize there's this person in your life, coworker, partner, whatever, when the relationship is really important, and you detect that contempt in yourself, and you realize like, I don't want to have this, like I want this person in my life, you can work on your own feelings of contempt and redirecting them. And you do that by recalibrating your perception filters, like have a list of things that you appreciate in the other person. If this is a partner, maybe you have a notepad next to your toothbrush, and whenever you're brushing your teeth, you're thinking of three things that you appreciate about that person. You retrain your brain to see the good stuff. You can also make it a habit to point those things out to the other person and saying, well, AJ, you know what this, thank you so much for replying to this email. Thank you so much for giving me feedback on this slide deck. Like that was immensely helpful. Thank you so much for that. I know that when I need feedback, you got my back and I appreciate that. So that's how you work on those contempt attacks on your own side. However, that only works on your side. Like if someone has contempt for you, unfortunately, that's still a little bit of a different problem because you can't influence that very much. Amy and I have a practice of simply answering the question what I love about you. So we've had a number of guests on the show talk about gratitude. And we have a daily gratitude practice where we ask each other what we're grateful for. And the impact on finding the positive through all of the turmoil, all of the upheaval, all of the frustrating moments that happen and it's just surviving here on this earth retrains your brain to look for those positive moments. And we've found that taking this one question what I love about you and answering it in regular intervals and check-ins allows us to keep that perception filter on the right things about the relationship, the reasons we want to be together. And I think part of the reason we get to a place of contempt is because our perception filter starts to only focus on the negatives, only focus on the trash overflowing, only focus on the lateness and not showing up to the meeting on time, only focus on the emails that went unanswered. And if you find that you're on the receiving end of that contempt, well, can you bring a practice like that into your relationship? Can you maybe not in the moment of conflict, but can you the next morning roll over to your partner and say, hey, I wanna share what I love about you and I'd love to hear that in return. And can you start to work together as a team to recalibrate and shift that perception filter back to all the reasons that matter in the relationship, the reasons you are together because we know over time that we're all on different trajectories. We've talked about this on the show in the past too and there are gonna be moments where you're on a sky high trajectory, your partner might be backsliding in their career, might be having some health issues, might be being frustrated by family members and not in their best state, physically, mentally, emotionally. And because of that, there has to be a recalibration together of the perception filter to reinvest in that relationship, to reinvest in the reasons that you are together. And you can do this, maybe it's not love, as guys we probably don't sling around love for our friends as much as we should, but what I appreciate about you, what I really enjoy, what matters to me. If you bring that practice into the relationships in your life that matter, we do it in situations at work, we do it in situations with our family. I had some conflict around the wedding with my family last year and I found myself just sort of defaulting to negative thoughts and my perception filter was on all the things that were frustrating me, the expectations I had built up around them. And I just actively started bringing into my conversations with them what I appreciated, the things they were doing that mattered to me when I felt love from them around the wedding. It changed the tone of those conversations from like them focusing on the negative or me focusing on the negative. So I know you can't control someone else. I know you can't read their thoughts and their intentions or their emotions, but we can bring a practice into our communication that leads to that influences the other person in the way they're showing up and what they're communicating back to us. And I think in all of these situations, for me, it's the realization that there's two people in this relationship, there's two perspectives, there's two realities, there's two sets of emotions, there's two sets of values that are in conflict here that maybe aren't seeing the reality. Can we work together with the intention of having this relationship stay strong, its importance to us, to move beyond these four horsemen? So I'm curious about that habit that you and Amy have. How does it work? Like what's the tactic behind it? Do you just randomly start? One thing I love about you is X and then she replies or is there something that you do at a specific time of the day? How exactly do you work with that? We have the daily gratitude practice that we try as best as we can, both of us to ask throughout the day. So it started originally every morning but now our work schedules don't always align. So sometimes one of us is running out to the gym and the other person's hopping on a call. So the daily gratitude practice is one of us recognizing, okay, let's ask this of our partner. Every week we go on Friday night, sushi date night here in LA. And those are the moments for our relationship check-in and those are the moments where we share that one thing that we love about each other. And there are certainly other moments where I'll just look over or she'll look over and it comes to mind. But having that bookend to our week on Friday nights that we carve out together and as we start a family it's a practice and a ritual that we wanna keep. I think allows us to strengthen our relationship no matter what the world has thrown at us. And because you know that once it's Friday evening and you're sitting next to the running sushi now it's time to share this one thing you appreciate about each other. That also means that throughout the week you unconsciously or consciously look for something so that when you're sitting in front of your avocado sushi, you actually have something to say, right? So on Monday you're already, oh yeah, I could mention this and then on Tuesday you're like, oh yeah, I could mention this as well. And then you might actually like, okay, I can only share one thing like, well, whatever is like the one thing I found on Monday or the one on Wednesday? That sounds like an amazing practice. The beauty of it for me is that it's actually the smaller details that are the most meaningful. So when you start this practice you kind of think like, oh, it's gonna be the grand gestures or the moment I rode in on the white horse and saved the day for Amy or the moment that she went on of her way to do something really spectacularly for me. But it's actually the smaller moments where you notice something beautiful in your partner and sharing that with intentionality that I find like lighten us up the entire weekend and stick with us. So I know it can sound daunting at the start, like, oh my God, it's like, what is the meaning of life? What do I love about you, right? And you think about writing wedding vows and you think about movies and romantic comedies and all of these things, these overt messages that are sent around love. But I've actually found it's the smallest details in the moments where you're probably least thinking that your partner is finding you or seeing you in that loving light that are the most meaningful. So you've stopped renting white horses and you'll go with the finer details. Yeah. Makes no sense. It keeps the floor a lot cleaner. So in listening to this, and I recommend this to all of our X Factor accelerator members, just the power of journaling, think around the last one or two major conflicts you've had. Like maybe you recognize that you're drifting apart from a friend or maybe a family member or a sibling has just really been getting on your nerves lately or maybe it is your partner is just gonna figure out there your spouse. Think about the last conflict you really had and journal about it. The emotions have waned, the physiological responses that we've talked about here have drifted away. Think through your behaviors and actions and your communication. Think through their behaviors and actions and their communication and use this podcast as a lens to unpack what are these dynamics going on in the relationships that matter to you and you might find some new insight in the way that you approach communication moving forward. You might find some insight in the way your partner or your friend or family member is showing up in their relationship and that maybe there were some things you were doing that were triggering the four horsemen in them or maybe there's some things that they're doing that are triggering the four horsemen in you. But this episode, understanding these four dynamics really empowers you in every relationship to strengthen it which we know from Robert Waldinger's work, the Harvard Happiness Study, ultimately those relationships translate to a rich meaningful life, translate to physical health, right? We're talking about four horsemen. Well, that just doesn't drain your mental and emotional batteries but that actually drains your physical health too. And if we can strengthen the relationships in our life we can live a meaningful life and we can actually live a healthier life. So that was really my goal in sitting down with Michael and Johnny today, recognizing some patterns in my own life and my relationship and some intentionality that I'm moving forward with to the relationships that really matter. I think we solved it.