 Since everything to do with blockchain has some sort of value transfer involved with it, every time you change state you have to move some Ethereum, then technically almost every application is by definition a bank, or every DAF is by definition some sort of bank. Welcome back to another episode of Amir Approved. A special guest is Jesse Abrahamowitz. He's a blockchain developer of BlockX Labs, Polkadot Ambassador, experienced in multiple blockchains including Ethereum, Aeon and more. He has experienced building private proof of authority blockchain networks using JavaScript, React, Node.js, back and in front of experience. He is also a college professor at George Brown College teaching blockchain fundamentals, smart contract security, DApps and many more. Now, before we begin today's episode, a little bit of house cleaning notes. If you haven't already, head over to iTunes and leave a review. Evie, every review helps. In fact, what I'm doing is I'm checking iTunes and checking YouTube for the best reviews and the best comments and I'm gifting people $20 in bitcoins. I'll be looking out for that. Without further ado, Jesse, welcome to Amir Approved. How are you doing? I'm doing really well. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for being on. You and I know each other for a while and the reason why I have you on the show is I want to talk about the state of blockchain. Oh, that's very ominous. Yes. Where do I even begin? Exactly. Let me ask you this. What have you been seeing lately? Okay. Yeah. So I actually did know the topic coming in. So I do have some previous ideas, but for sure to like me, the state of blockchain space or the next step is interconnectivity between multiple blockchains. And I know we've been talking about that forever, but I'm building on that now. So again, that's at the forefront of my mind for sure. And like you can see things like that in like stuff like Cosmos and Polkadot. I think even Tron, like Control-C, Control-P, like Polkadot's spy paper, because they have parachains now or something. Well, they're the masters at Control-C. Pardon? Masters at Control-C. Yeah. Control-C, Control-V. Yeah. Yeah, right. Control-V. I always have a thesis for China. They're really good at copying, hyperscaling. I read that in 0 to 1. Yeah. So that was, yeah. My thesis on China, and this can be applied to any systems like China. Let's say China becomes the go-to authority. Let's say somehow their dollar becomes the hedge. And now I'm hearing they want to put the rim and B on a blockchain or like a digital version of it. Pretty much it's all digital. Like everything on, what's it called? WeChat. Yeah. Pay your bills, facial recognition, it's like dystopian future. The thing that people don't understand with the United States primarily, because within the Constitution of freedom of speech, you have the ability for creativity. You have the right as a sovereign citizen to express your mind. This is why everybody copies the culture of the United States. You look at Hollywood, you look at music, you look at Hollywood, they are the biggest exporter of ideas, all the tech ideas, startup ideas, music ideas, everybody takes from the United States. Now, let's say China does replace United States. My question is where does creativity come from? Where do they then copy people from? You don't have the right to speak your mind. You don't have the right for creativity. Right. And I mean, I guess that gets like the fundamental core concept of like what we were even talking about before this started was the resistance of censorship. Like if nobody can censor you, then you can push through any idea that you want. Kind of have that American style culture on a global scale. Yes. Maybe with the state of how large the American government is getting, you know, how heavy the tax burden is. We were just talking about how terrible California seems. Oh my God. How long until that, you know, American spark or whatever you're calling it starts to like fade away because of all the top down censorship and top down like the censorship that's kind of happened. But you're talking about the interconnectivity between blockchains. Why is it important? Right. So yeah, again, I think everybody when they talk about blockchains, at least eventually talks about like transaction per second. And that's really important. But there's so many different types of scaling. In fact, I actually love when I talk to like other developers who've worked in other spaces. I was talking to Eric who used to work in Inferno, he works at Chainsafe now and he was just like, you know, when people say scaling, they always think transaction per second. He was like, well, I don't think anyone's ever like run something like Inferno and actually reading from the blockchain is very difficult too. And that has some sort of scaling problems as well as the blockchain grows. And then I heard a talk from like Lane Renning who was like, you know, people talk about TPS for scaling, but nobody talks about the size of the global state tree, which is growing rampantly in Ethereum and any other blockchain. So scaling doesn't just come down to transaction per second. And even if it does, you can scale it vertically or horizontally a blockchain, which means like, you know, you can just have a better protocol that moves faster, which usually today means that you sacrifice things like decentralization and that censorship resistance. Or you can kind of scale horizontally when you have multiple different blockchains all talking to each other. And if you can all communicate and you can move through, you can move through blockchains, like you move through web pages, then you won't have the same problems of scalability that you have today. It won't really be necessary every time you kind of get to a point where things are slowing down, create a new blockchain and just have them connect and talk to each other in a certain way. But let's say we're having this conversation and the issue is not scalability, is not interconnectability or interoperability as they call it. What I'm trying to, what I'm getting to a point within the space, I've been in space for a while is I'm getting disillusioned of what we're trying to solve. There's a lot of noise right now. Yeah. And that's a fair you're right, because interconnectivity doesn't really solve anything except for like technical challenges, but solves almost no use case. It's like, it's kind of like, you know, oh, cool. We're going to create this amazing airport, but if you don't have people flying on the planes, then why are you doing it? Or you don't have a reason to go to other countries and travel? What's the point? So, yeah, I guess another problem with. It's interesting, like are we waiting for like those killer use cases that are coming out? And I don't think DeFi is one. I have my reservations about it. I don't like the even the word DeFi. Well, I mean, it's cool. It's like two syllables. It's nice to say like open file. Like what's decentralized? That's the only one that kind of looks pretty decentralized. Like Uniswap, the rest of like, there are key players that can either pause it, shut it down or change the repo and manipulate it how they want it. OK, so to be fair, though, like I used to like really agree with you on that one. But when it comes to like a gradeable smart contracts, yes, building them myself, I kind of don't agree with you at all anymore. It's just the amount of ego that you have to say to like, I'm going to create a program and then I'm just never going to update it. No, I agree with you. I agree with you. I think DeFi, decentralization of financial products, it's a bad branding. I like open file, there should be somebody in charge of upgrading the contract or if there's issues at hand to fix it. I agree with that. My question is. What are we trying to fundamentally solve? That's I'm trying to wrap my head around that. Yeah, I mean, I don't think I have that answer anymore. I mean, when I got into the space is like, oh, cool, bank the unbanked global money. But nothing that I think I've done since like starting to build, I guess. I guess now with the interconnectivity, you kind of do have like the OK, if you want a global system of money, you need to hire transaction for a second. But that's not why people are building the interconnectivity stuff so much. It's like, you know, for dApps and things like that, which you're right. Coming into the space, I was like, bank the unbanked global money. Now, I don't think anything I've done has really like helped in towards that. I mean, I did like help build a mixer and stuff. But I think the mixers are cool. Yeah, they're cool. But like the whole point of the mixer we were building was to use dApps. Yeah, like so you don't fingerprint yourself when you're using dApps, which which is great. But I'm not sure so much that, you know, anything I've done for my initial ideas coming in have actually been towards the goal of, you know, global money, you know, so much. Well, like if we're looking at baskets, so if I'm looking at Bitcoin, people call the store a value, I don't call it a store. I think that's a narrative gray for me. I look at it as a censorship resistant, not a sort of value when it fluctuates from like 10% to 50%. So for me, it's censorship resistant. I can have something where I can hold it for a brief period of time to move, move it to somewhere else. But when we're talking blockchain, I view Bitcoin with Bitcoin. We have Ethereum, which is a majority of developers and people build on that. As we mentioned, there's other players coming, Polkadot, Cosmos. You know, within this side over here, Ethereum, Polkadot, Cosmos, they're kind of similarities. Bitcoin does is one singular purpose thing. And now you have the explosion of DeFi or OpenFi. I'm trying to kind of wrap my head around is like, people are saying, oh, this, I mean, like, I'll give you example, like whether it's whether it's any of these companies where you can take your preexisting crypto and take out a loan. It's cool. There's great companies like Ledin who are doing amazing stuff, specifically for Latin America that have a great use case. But like, let's say I'm in Canada here, it's nothing new. If I already have collateral like my house or like my car, I can take a loan out. Bear. Yeah. Because I already have collateral. Like you're not giving me the loan based on some type of new credit system. You're giving me the loan for the fact that you can just take away my collateral. Take away my collateral if I don't pay back. Yeah. I mean, and you're right. But like, I guess the promise with this, at least for me, would be that like if I had, let's say a house in Canada, America, whatever, I don't have to go to the bank and get a loan from the bank for putting it up. I could literally put it up on the blockchain itself and then, you know, barring some sort of outside oracles and some outside force, which you're going to have to remove the collateral from the person. But you can literally lend it out to somebody across the world with zero permissions. Again, that's kind of like my problem with DeFi is that I always think that like, you know, I went on Compound on board myself from Fiat to die in a matter of seconds or minutes, but ever there are some cool places in Canada. I think the Patri was doing it, which they're doing a great job. And then I went into Compound and I was lending out my money on Compound. And I like to think of it like, oh, I was lending out my money to somebody in Venezuela who really needed it, buy food or whatever. But realistically, what I am actually doing is I'm just lending it to some guy who's trying to get like three times, six times leverage. Everyone's arbitraging off everybody else. Yeah. And like when I was doing it, I'm like, awesome. I'm getting this percent and I'm helping people. But really I'm just getting that percent, like 10 percent that I want. And in a model that doesn't seem super sustainable when I say it out loud. So yeah, it's sometimes very disillusioning to kind of like take away the ideals and be like, OK, but what is actually happening? Not like where we want to be. So yeah, it is a very disillusioning thing. Do you have any kind of predictions or ideas where we're heading within the space? I mean, again, so I'm a developer and I just from the day to day, I end up not so much talking ideals with people a lot. I end up talking like technicals, right? Sure. And from that perspective, absolutely like connected blockchains. Personally, working on universal tools that like connect all of them working on a universal wallet right now. So like, you know, the idea is that you should be able to move from blockchain to blockchain with the same tool set as easily as people move from like, you know, websites or whatever, right? But from like the idea of perspective is I'm not sure what that actually gets us, except for more daps that are like kind of only useful to like a handful of people and people who understand the space so much. Even when I was talking about compound and like onboarding through Patreon, which was so easy for me, I went to a friend who's not in crypto and I'm like, oh, you should do this. It's going to be a great thing. And I'm like, oh, you're getting die, which means you're going to need Ethereum, which we and then I just stopped talking. I'm like, yeah, I thought this was really easy. But like now that I say it out loud, it's not. This you mentioned the Umbank like, like there's a company here in Canada, Leiden and Mauricio is a founder or co-founder and they're working with people in Latin America, Mexico, Venezuela. A lot of people talk about the Umbank, but people don't realize like locally they're not using crypto as a form of payment. It's the greenback. It's USD. They need cash and hand. And so this whole Umbank, I think it just uses a gimmick as a marketing gimmick to be honest with you. And so for me, I get it. Like going back to my example, like, you know, let's say I have this car. The car has a blue book value. It's not really fluctuating 10, 20 percent per day. It's like, let's say it's $5,000. We know for a fact it's $5,000, maybe like $4,900 next year based on whatever blue book value I can put up in. Yes, you're right. It's like I have to walk into a bank or there's a process. Have an ID, be in a country that actually has banks that you can trust. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a tedious process, but it's doable, right? And so I do give it credit for OpenFi that it can streamline the process. I still think we're super early because let's say, like, for example, what maker or die or any of these places, like you got to do three to one collateral and, you know, you hear stories of people getting liquidated. Yeah. And so it's like, I would never recommend this to anybody that wants a loan. It just way too much. It's way too complicated. And I barely understand how to like make a loan because I never would probably make a loan. Anyways, but yeah, it's super, super complex. Even for me or you and like think about trying to tell that to an average person. Yeah, like it's not even like, oh, you need to do this to this. Oh, you also need ether first to do all of this. And yeah, I usually just stop talking at that point when I'm talking to my friends. But promising though. And so like, you know, you're working with polka dot. You've dabbled in cosmos, obviously, Ethereum. What are they trying to accomplish? Like what's the difference right now with polka dot competitive theory? Right. Yeah. Actually, I have great metaphor. I love talking about this. So like, if you look back like Bitcoin, Bitcoin was, let's say doing X, right? But it was the only thing doing X. So people tried to use it for X, Y and Z, right? Because it was like the first time something like this happened. So, you know, you have name coin, peer coin, whatever, all those things. The whole story of why Ethereum came along. And it seems like, hey, we're going to do Y, right? Because, you know, you're doing X, Y and Z. We can do Y really well. And people start to use Ethereum for Y, but then also Y and Z. And now polka dot's coming along as like, oh, OK, everybody's loading on Ethereum with like Z and it's kind of not helping Ethereum so much. It's not you're having the scalability issues. You're having a bunch of issues. So it was like, we can grab Z, right? And so the idea was like what that actually means is Ethereum is great if you want like some sort of like, not finality, but like non-upgradability or very difficult upgradability. You know, you want things to stay like a full smart contract platform. That's awesome. If you want to build these like full, like living dApps that move fast, that you have like this really large control about how the blockchain acts and functions, then that's when you want to start to think about moving to polka dot or cosmos where you create your own chain and you can affect things that happen outside the state tree, outside like what you can touch with the dApp as well. You can like speed up things, slow down things. You can you can do like a whole host of different design patterns are going to start popping up around this. Like you can have transactions where non-sys don't increase. You can write it like that. I don't know why you would do that. You can have blockchains that don't have accounts on them. I still don't know why you would do that, but like I've been told that there might be use cases for that eventually. I've heard about the ledgerless blockchains. Yeah, like I think it's so full. I think Aragon's one of them. I haven't looked into it. I have no clue, but like when I was talking to people, they're like, oh, that'd be really interesting for logging. I'm like, yeah, sure, maybe. I don't know, but like I'm starting like you'll start to see in like few years. I mean polka dot and cosmos aren't even live yet, but people creating blockchains that kind of go against what we think blockchains might actually have been or like what actually are like the whole ledgerless blockchains and stuff like that. And that's a really cool future, at least from a technical perspective. Getting back to your original point is, you know, what does that solve? You know, let's say it's solving something, whatever X. I'm trying to figure out how do we create a business model around there because it can't be a token. Yeah, so I mean, I've talked to like a lot of people and like, I don't think we're there yet, but imagine if you can have like DeFi, right? So OK, while we were talking before this, we were talking about how, you know, Internet 2.0, selling ads, dealing your data. It actually made sense for a business model, but now it's starting to make sense for a business model is the opportunity cost of money. Yes. So if you can like lock up money and then somehow put it on to some sort of DeFi platform, then you can actually have business cases where people are just taking money. They're not losing or paying anything, but they're losing the opportunity cost they get from that money. Well, that's like what pulled together is doing. Is it? Yeah, there's already people doing that. Then that's in fact, you can look at DeFi or OpenFi if you're trying to rename that as not just a DAP itself or application itself, but almost like the fundamental like monetization infrastructure of blockchains themselves, which would be a really cool like future. Like I'd be OK, like, OK, cool, I'm not going to make my percent on this, but I'm going to be able to get my E&S name by taking this money here. That's to say the percentages stay where they're at. That is to say that the alpha won't. Yeah. And just when you have more players and more saturation, you lose alpha and simple as that. And then you're also relying on, again, a third, your whole company is relying on a third party for their funds and the risk involved with that. Because like, let's say like, OK, we'll use the example of pulled together. And I didn't come up with who wrote this. I think Ryan was talking about this. What's his last name? Sir. No, no, he's like on Twitter and on stop, Ryan, something. Let me pull it up there real time. We'll get we want to do justice over here and get his real name. Shadow, I want to give credit where credit is due. Well, if you just say Ryan and like you can Ryan, Ryan, Sean Adams. Here, I was if you just didn't give last name number. I think that's super theorem guy. He he he tweeted an interesting idea, taking the idea of pulled together. So let's say you and I have a software company, the software is twenty dollars a month. Instead of me paying you twenty dollars a month, my lockage of my die or whatever crypto, the interest from that they can use. Yeah, I'm technically getting the software for free because of my opportunity cost and me deploying to somewhere else. I'm not getting that. Now the question, are you really a software company or are you a bank? That's a good point. I mean, at that point, you're a bank because you're deploying that money. You're not just saying, oh, here, I'm going to give or I'm just going to sit here. No, like right now, let's say if it's like eight percent, that's not going to last. It's probably going to get to like two, three percent, some stability, right? Maybe back to banking rates. It used to be two percent. Then pretty much is like a zero sum game. It's going to take all right. It's like the more you have the more kind of interest in deployment. So at that point, you're pretty much kind of like a bank slash hedge fund. Where your software is just a lead generation tool on the front end. Well, yeah, if you think about like a lot of like the what blockchains are, like every time like I start to explain things like make your doubts, like right there's like you're describing a bank to me. Like if you can tap into decentralized networks and since everything to do with blockchain has some sort of value transfer involved with it, every time you change state, you have to move some Ethereum. Then technically almost every application is by definition a bank or every DAP is by definition kind of some sort of bank. If you're really tapping into these power and decentralized networks of it. So maybe that's our somewhat answer of like, what are we creating? We're creating like decentralized banks for everybody or everybody can be their decentralized bank. You can literally create your software, which it does something. But in the background, it's really a bank and that's how you actually create your business model. Yeah. I mean, that's cool. I'm actually more excited now than I was when I came out. That's one interesting thing, you know, another interesting thing, too, is. I know a lot of Bitcoin or shit on tokens. And they have. There's reasons why to. You know, for the most part, we're in the early stage. I think a lot of these tokens are useless. Oh, absolutely. Like completely useless. Now, I'm also a firm believer where. I think we will see in the future. A type of new Facebook, we don't have to call it decentralized, but it's going to be more or less that everybody kind of wins on the upside of it. And so it can be a combination of two things within this new type of blockchain. A social media platform, whether it's Facebook, whatever, right? Right, right. One, I know we're super early on this block stack was one of the first ones. I think was it like reg A or reg D? They did a securitized token. They registered with the SEC, et cetera. We're super early. There's no look. Can't really get liquidity for it. There's not too many market makers for it. So it takes time to mature to build out the ecosystem, both the buy and sell pressures. Let's say we're at that point, right? There's liquidity and there's exchanges. It's regulated. You and I, let's say this new social media platform comes around. They're doing kind of like an STO and they're raising money, maybe on like a series B, series C, not originally. They have to get momentum. I want to be part of it because I'm fucking using it. Right? So I give money. We, as the initial users, we have upside now with this. So I think something like this will eventually happen. We can have them like whether it's die or ether or it should be open entity. You can use any crypto within this social media platform. But you and I have a token now that represents ownership. The represent shares, depending on how much I buy, I can represent my voting rights in it as well, depending on how they kind of label the different token, the token within it. So it's kind of like a method of like turning regular users or like into super users. Yeah, into owners. Yeah, even super into something that maybe we don't actually see. The thing with before is like it was all about deal flow and accessibility. Like if you weren't part of the Silicon Valley elites, you wouldn't have access to anything. Right? So imagine you and I create the system and we have to go through the proper channels. It's going to be regulated. But like, And by this, definitely we're on our series B already. So it's not like we don't even have that. Yeah, I don't recommend this isn't a system where you just raised capital from day one. You want to still get private investors in and build out your model, get the scale. And then once you want to really hyper scale, then you kind of And you already have a working app in your hands that has users too. So like, yeah. Stuff like that. I think we're really fucking early though, but I see that happening. But then again, this is, this is like a permissioned and please, you know, sanctioned, secured, regulated type of platform. So it's like kind of like the maker down model trickling down into like everyday life where people are actually voting on what they think their interest rates should be. And people are actually trying to take a stake in the company itself because they're themselves are kind of technically owners with the maker down token. Yeah, like I think I know at one point in the blockchain space there was a hype for curation, bonding curves. Right. I'm not in the camp that I believe everybody has a right to Yeah. No, I, well, all right. Maybe like everybody should have a right to vote, but maybe not everybody should vote or they should take it. There has to be some skin in the game. Yeah. Whether you are, when I mean my skin in the game, there has to be Yeah. Yeah. I know I've actually like talked about that idea, especially when I was learning about create two for the first time. It's like you can create code and then it can like fully automatically interact. But like if you vote for the wrong value, you actually get those tokens burned and people who vote for the right one actually get like a portion of the tokens from the burned or like the losers. So yeah, there's probably, there is a lot of like value to that. The only issue is when I brought that all up is the amount of percent of people that actually vote in the Ethereum space already is already very low and people aren't like, people aren't like trying to like, oh, how can we make that lower, make it more difficult for people to vote. They're trying to bang the door open that you get like a hundred percent of people or like a large percent of people like voting. Let's say I'm a regular user and I'm a regular like a dabbler with an Ethereum. Why do I even care to vote? Yeah. No, I absolutely agree. And that's probably one of like the most like fearful I am for Polkadot. Like I've never voted in Ethereum. I have nothing to gain. Yeah. I mean, I voted for a few Dow stuff, but it was mainly because there were small Dow's. Yeah. That's not like for me, I have nothing to gain. I have nothing to lose. I'm like, what's the purpose of me voting? I have zero skin in the game here. Well, I mean, what they say is when they talk about the tokens is that, you know, you're voting on things that govern the token that you're holding. I'm not a developer. I'm not an engineer. The fuck do I know what's going on? It's, that's a fair point. I mean, and again, yeah, a lot of people will talk about, you know, getting more people to vote in these decentralized networks. But, you know, you also make a very fair point, which I do consider is like, this should everybody be voting? Like, is that like our biggest goal to get everybody to vote or people who vote are the people who really, really care and really, really set town research and, you know, should have a say? Well, for the most part, it's always a select few to control everybody. So you bring up maker. You know, there are people out there who've bought the maker token that have an incentive to buy the token and to put in the votes based on their incentive models. Well, about incentive models, you can see why they behave based on incentive feedback mechanisms. You know, maker is an interesting stuff. See what happens with dye. You know, I have no idea now they're doing multi-collateral. Yeah. There's pros and cons to that. But it's still, I think dye, I'm more in the camp, they're my, I don't know how they're building out the multi-collateral. I think dye is an interesting product. Really interesting. I think if it can hold its peg, there's a lot of use case for it, but I would never, ever, ever see it in, I don't know, maybe I'm proven wrong, but at least as of today, I don't see it being used as money. That's fair. I mean, like I can't complain. I haven't used it for money. I think about a drink at a bar once with it. But like, yeah, other than that, I don't. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. Fair. But it could be used as the means of ability when it comes to open fire. I was actually about to say that I just recently made the ETH101 videos for Blockings for you and I was like, hey, pay me and dye, man. I'm not getting you to pay me and dye because I want this money to spend on things I'm not going to. Now I have to go to an exchange, my company, we register. Like you're not holding some dye because you're like, do global business. I guarantee you're paying people in crypto. We pay a lot of our freelancers, but it's all in the books. Yeah, I know. I saw you come with invoice and like, shit, now I'm going to have to tax it. I always pay my taxes though. We have to remember where Canadian Federation. I know. I'm like, oh, that's cool. I thought I was just going to now have to give all this, whatever. But I was totally going to pay my taxes no matter what happened. If anybody's watching. But yeah, no, I didn't say like, pay me because I want to spend his money. I was like, pay me because I'm going to go put into compound and make interest and do some sort of dye at DeFi stuff. Yeah. Like, what else am I going to do? I'm 28. I don't have a family and my rent is not that expensive. Get into real estate. Yeah, eventually. Well, I'm doing that on the software side. I'm building like a product. I have access to the Treb. My friend's a real estate agent. Yeah. So I have access to like the Treb database. So we're like building this whole like front end, you know, connecting users to the houses. You see all them, but they're all terrible. We're like, oh, we can build one better. So let's do that. Yeah. You got to talk to my boy. He ran the company. They're not around anymore, but he ran Red Pin. Oh, yeah. They're not around it. But everybody talks about Red Pin and how great it was. And they're not around anymore. And I'm like, oh man. You should talk to them before you start building. Oh yeah. I'm not doing the business side. I just wanted to build like some tech out. Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah, I should probably talk to that person. Yeah. Have you been paying attention to dabbling within the Bitcoin space at all? Within the Bitcoin space? No, I actually don't own that much Bitcoin. Here's the funny thing. I'm building a Bitcoin wallet right now, but I don't actually own too much Bitcoin. I didn't own it. I don't own a lot of stuff until like I start to like work on it. Yeah. And I'm like, then I actually like understand it because I had no idea how Bitcoin wallets worked until I like started to build one. Build one, yeah. And now I'm like, I definitely don't want to own any Bitcoin because I don't even like, it is so hard to manage these funds. But just the way that like, I actually did a blockage video on it. The way that Bitcoin works to actually build a wallet for is really like difficult and complex. Like, you know, every account, you need to loop through at least like 20 to 40 different accounts until one ends up in a different wallet. Like every time. Just even things like getting balance, it's just so complex. And I can like, I'm shocked that more people don't lose Bitcoin funds. Maybe they do and I just don't hear about it. But like... But how would they lose them? Because they take their funds from one account to another and they don't have like the proper pathways. Like it's specified. So they can't actually find the accounts that they have funds in. OK. Stuff like that. You know, to be fair, that kind of happened a while ago. I was using my ledger and I went and I grabbed my second derivation path again from a ledger and I went to like my Ether wallet. I couldn't find it. I had to specify my own specific derivation path by looking up like what ledger documentation. And it took me a while and I was super nervous even though like I build wallets and it was just that they were just accidentally appending like one extra one. What do you think is the biggest problem in the wallet space right now? Since you're building one. So, OK, to be fair, so we're building like a wall that doesn't exist yet. It's like a universal metamask. It's going to be an app though too, right? It's a Chrome extension. A Chrome extension. Gotcha. So, and I guess we're kind of like going with the idea of, you know, blockchain that connects to each other. The whole idea is that you need tools that connect to each other too. I mean, whenever people say like, oh, what are you going to build with it? I'm like, look, I don't think we're even in the point where you can comprehend dapps. I can give you an example of a dapps that's just so like to try to yet understand what dapps will be being built with this. It needs like a new way of thinking. But I guess the best one would be like multi-lateral dye. It'd be great for people to have one like Chrome extension that handles moving like Bitcoin to Ethereum and Ethereum to wherever. But there's a bunch of wallets though, like that has it all right now. Yeah, but do any of them like inject into the page and allow you to sign messages straight from the page? I don't know about on the Chrome, but on the actual that light to mess around with dapps. Oh, the actual dapps itself? No, no, just the currencies. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, there's Jackson, all those ones, but none of them actually like work like metamask where you click a button on a page and then I got you. Yeah. So this is interfacing with actual dapps. Yes. Yeah. That's what I yeah. I like to say it is extending the functionality of the browser. Really, all you do is you just like questions. What dapps are people using right now? Yeah, that's that's a fair point. I mean, maybe they need the universality. Oh, seriously, like this. OK, fine. E&S is like a big one. But again, as awesome as E&S is for such a fringe fucking community. It is. And it's a little bit more like an infrastructure app too. So it's like, you're not it's not even so much like use cases like, OK, DNS is not like I go and I like to spend time on like Facebook. It's like in Facebook needs it. So it's more like an infrastructure thing. So you also, I guess, perfectly easy, but I guess that's cool. All of the open fi, all of the open fi ones like maker, compound, whatever. And then like after that, maybe you know, swap. Uniswap. Yeah. I mean, that kind of goes under open fi, I guess. After that, like it's fair. There aren't many being used. Well, CryptoKitties is they built their own blockchain right now. Oh, yeah. Did they? Yeah, they announced it well, they announced it before, but they did it presently. See if I can just pass. Defconn. Nice. Yeah, I must have missed that one. There's a lot of things going on in the space, but you're right. Like I guess to be fair, the best use cases that we won't see that will drive a lot of adoption is like a fly chain. And I talked to people who have been in the fly chain space who like they, a lot of them don't understand blockchain so much, but they're like really excited about it. And that gets me excited too, but it's not going to be stuff like it's not going to answer your question. I go get a lot of usage. I'll drive adoption. I'll drive it forward, but it'll also be like very like niche groups. What I hope that happens I'll tell you a problem right now. And then I'll go into what I hope that happens. And it has to go with lending. One, the systems that we have today with credit credit rating is a sham. You have these archaic idiotic companies like Equifax that they should be eliminated. Like the fact that they have multiple breaches of our data of our send numbers out there is Epsine. And they, they collected that data without our permission. Epsine. I fucking hate Equifax. We guys are listening to this. You guys are horrible company. Absolutely fucking horrible. Like zero respect for your clients. Zero. Absolutely fucking zero. And it's difficult. It's difficult for people to get regular loans. Now, when we look at. And the reason why it's difficult is you have this old archaic system that has these metrics based on if you are a trustworthy individual to get a loan, whether it's like what employment you have the history have, it's very archaic system and highly corrupt. Now, when you look at social media, whether it's Facebook, YouTube, et cetera, this is your naturalistic behavior. And so where I see some application of blockchain and this is where kind of open files kind of heading is like. And this is where actually where you can help people globally. You create a global ecosystem and I identity is the number one problem. Yeah, I was waiting until we actually got to identity. I thought like three times and I kept forgetting to bring it up. It's such a low-hanging. Yeah, yeah. Like there has to be identity and key management. This shouldn't even be a question. And I know people are working on it, but we must have proper identity and proper key management. It can't be like, well. Do you think those two things are like the same? Do you think wallets will end up being the identity solutions? That's kind of what I'm seeing. I think that's kind of what we're doing. Maybe. Like key store management has me something can't be like if I lose my seed I'm fucked. Oh, yeah. Social recovery of some sort has something. Something has to exist and identity between different chains have to exist. And so what I would love to see in the future where it's like, I want to take a loan, whether it's die, whether it's Bitcoin, some type of loan, I want it. And I know I knew I think the company was bloomed or trying to work on this. I don't know what they're doing today. I would like to see a system where based on my natural behaviors online, like I'll raise my hand and be like, OK, I'm yours. Wallet is this. So I raised my hand. You don't need to know I'm a mirror right away. I'm a user. My identity. And my behavior is X. You see that I'm buying stuff. I'm taking it alone here. I'm repaying it back. So we have this big elongated time frame of my naturalistic behavior. Based on my naturalistic behavior, this gives me a natural. We wouldn't call it credit score, but like type of score. And I know some people listen. This might be black mirror. Yeah. So I was actually don't get me wrong. It's such a almost a double edged sword or like this cannot be run by a government. An independent open source project. This is how I like to have it. I know executed to be fair. Like I totally agree. But so to me, like that's an awesome. There is a future I want to live in. But at the same time, it's also a future I don't want to live in. Like I actually heard this a lot from Edward Snowden who talked to the Web 3. Somebody was talking about this. It's, you know, the whole ideal, the great thing about money is when you go into a store or like cash, you're like the five dollars for like water, you're five dollars. It's like when you give five dollars, you're not, you know, who you talked to yesterday. You know, this is why cash society scares me. Yeah. I know. And what you're describing is one awesome and super like effective, but then also to really scary. Right. I mean, there's like no two ways about it. The second that you create like this history of yourself, you also create a history of yourself that can be used for good and people. I guess to me like the big thing and identity is such like a low-hung fruit and it needs to happen. But it needs to be like you have your identity accounts and then you have your anonymous. I think it's going to come to a point where all money would be digital and they will track all our money. But then you're going to have privacy type of tech, whether it's like the Z caches or the Moneros or Bitcoin ever implements. Hey, the mixer that I'm working on. Yeah. It has to be streamlined. It can't be complicated. Yeah. That's the one thing. Oh, yeah. It's to be fair, like it's not super complicated to use, but it's still definitely like in infrastructural pieces that like make it super terrible to use. So like I think I did the math that was like $3 to make a transaction. But that's a cost you pay. That's fair. That's for now. That's for now. Yeah. Hopefully that gets better. You know, the proof generation took like 30 seconds in browser to make. Is this the mixer where they took, is it like Z cache or was it like like ring signature? Yeah, it was ZK Snarks. Okay. Yeah. Oh, speaking of ZK Snarks, now that I have an open microphone, I always like to like tell people that ZK Snarks are to me at least maybe I misunderstood it when I was listening to it or maybe people misunderstand it. Yeah. But really important to separate the ZK from the Snark part. Like the zero knowledge is literally just attacking on of like, of words to like the actual Snark, which is can stand alone thing. And the whole idea is there is their knowledge. Sure. Not everything needs to be zero knowledge in it. Like it's pretty much as you go through a circuit, if you multiply two things together, like X, X times Y, X and Y, X times Y equals X, Y, right? So if you do math on the same number that's been multiplied together, it's fine. In fact, together it's fine. But you can't tell X and Y. So as long as your pre factored numbers going in, then you can make it zero knowledge. The whole idea of a Snark is that you have these generated on the client side and these very later like verification that can be generated, you know, where you need to be generated like on the blockchain that gets replicated thousands of times over. But the actual heavy computation is generated to client side and like once. And that's the whole point of it. How would I use this mixer when it's done? Um, technically you can use it now. It's only on Rink B, but pretty much you go to the mixer, you put in like the address of who you want to send it to. Um, it creates this proof, puts it on the blockchain in a Marko Trina smart contract. And then you send like your money with it like one ether. And then either then you get like this blob of like text, right? That's your, um, that has like specific information for you to generate that proof. And then you, when you go back, you go to withdrawal, you click in the proof that you click that in, you get somebody else to or you get a wallet with some funds to like actually withdraw it so that there's no connection between those two wallets. Gotcha. Um, it generates a proof in your browser and then Metamask will pop up and you're like send it off and then the money just appears. And these all shielded addresses or? No, it's Ethereum. There's no such thing as shielded addresses, but it happens to be, so it's not perfect in a minute. What it happens to be is you have this like one contract that everybody's using and has liquidity again without liquidity, it's not a thing. Yeah. So it goes into the noise. Yeah. So pretty much instead of having like a one to one relationship, like I sent this to this. It's like, let's say a hundred inputs to a hundred outputs and there's no real way to connect the two. Like there's things like you can, if people start with one, seven, three ether, then it's pretty obvious one point one, seven, three comes on the other side. Yeah. You know, if you send it and then like take it out right away, it's kind of pretty obvious that that was you. So you can increase your anonymity set by like waiting extra time. We forced everybody to use one ether who uses it. So like there are drawbacks. There's our like large in usability features of it. In fact, you're going to adapt to have to do this. Yeah. Well, there's there's apps or yeah, there's apps in the Bitcoin space for doing this as well. Just for Bitcoin. But are they doing it like in a decentralized way or they like give me your Bitcoin and I'll give you other Bitcoin. I think they are. Yeah. I think just like samurai wallet is one. But that's really cool. To be fair, I have no idea how they're doing it. Yeah. But like, yeah, definitely worth wanting to look into. My thing I was interested with Ethereum is like, for example, you see consensus bought was in Fira. Yeah. I had always assumed that they were paying for in Fira. Like that's how we have it. I think it was they own a bunch of shares or they invested in it. Now they fully took it over. Whatever. There. Yeah. I really wasn't really paying attention. But Eric Wall, I believe his name, he he has a great Twitter thread. If you guys Google it, he shows you step by step how long it took him to sync a node like 23 days or something. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds about right. And this is wasn't even a full this was a full it wasn't even archival node. And so it's like this whole idea of like decentralization, like what does it really mean? Like how many people have a full archival node? Yeah. No, I would say almost not. And I think we're going like forward to like having like clients and like like clients like in browser or on wallets or whatever. Like, I mean, that's still a pretty good future. That's kind of more decentralized, but you're right. There are getting to be less and less people Yeah. Yeah. Some tech that I'm actually interested in and I don't know who's working on this. I know there's one form of tech. I think the app's called Wildfire where like, for example, in countries that have internet kill switches, Hong Kong has it, Turkey has it, Iran has it. So it's like, fuck your blockchain, no internet. Yeah. Good luck getting stuff out of that. Yeah. But like that one app, Wildfire does it by proxy on Bluetooth, I believe. So since if you live in like Hong Kong, high proximity of population, so if you guys are out and about, you can still use messaging. Oh, yeah. I think Chainsafe was working on something similar to that. Yeah. Ultra light beam or something that like, pretty much can hop messages. So the mesh networks are cool stuff that I'm interested in. Yeah. You need to get like enough mesh to like hop yourself out of the country though. I don't know. There's got to be a certain point where the Bluetooth just drops off and you're like, satellite stuff. I don't know. Yeah. That's really cool. I mean like, I have, I guess like every time you talk about, you know, blockchain or whatever, it still relies on centralized ISPs. And then it's just like, cool. So how do we get rid of them is like both mesh networks, but how do you hop a mesh network over the ocean? And then like, let's say you do get satellite internet. Let's say Elon Musk puts up all his Bluetooth things up top there. It's like, how many companies do you think can actually do that in the first little while? So you're going to have at least 10 years of pretty centralized. How many companies have sent the Bitcoin transaction through ham radio? I did not, but that sounds awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So that's really cool. Good. Transactions are like not that big and there don't need to be encrypted because really realistically, like you can like just send it out there. Like you're broadcasting this on like the whole thing and it's a signed message by you already. So as long as you can like broadcast it out somehow, like anybody can hear it because anybody is going to hear it eventually anyway, I mean, just throw pass it a wall I guess at that point. I'm going back to the dApps. You mentioned some, I know gaming is up and coming in the space as well. There's interesting ideas of how to monetize the in-game purchases. You know, you own this type of artifact within the game. I think gaming is a natural progression for this tech. I'm still not 100%. I want to say convinced but I don't see a clear line exactly how this is going to play out, especially if there's a token involved in this video game. Besides the video games and besides open fire, do you see any other like small niches of ecosystem protocols arising within the blockchain space? The supply chain would be my supply chain for my first one. Just anything that like is a value transfer is like just such low hanging fruit and supply chain is kind of like has blockchain built into it. It's just such good so good at like logging that type of information that comes through and like just every time that you shake hands with somebody like from, you know, I pass you these goods. It's technically a transaction of sorts. It doesn't involve money but it is a transaction and that's really what blockchain is good in therefore. And then if you are ever have situations of trust arising from that it's like cool then make it a blockchain that none of us control, you know, or make it a database and none of us control. And to me that seems like it's not going to be flashy. It's not going to be sexy. You're not going to want to talk about it on your podcast. I think I'll tell you that but I think it's like has some serious potential to like maybe not be the killer app but like something that drives blockchain forward another five years. We haven't hit the killer app stage yet. Okay. So I don't really always understand that argument so much. I think killer apps are like really easy to look back on and be like 20 years later after the technology is so like intertwined. But like this is like my least favorite thing about like with Bitcoin is like the way it's named is like you have the Bitcoin network and Bitcoin and everyone just calls it Bitcoin. But the Bitcoin network is a network of computers and the application that is on this Bitcoin these currencies themselves are they not the killer app already because there you are driving those people to use those networks. I think the killer app is actually the mythology around everything. The mythology around the narratives. Yeah. I love reading books on this stuff. And like I'm definitely feeding into that for sure. Like I absolutely love reading this. Because regardless of where you are within this space whether you are a developer or whether you are a builder or an investor or a curious be or evangelist I think everybody admits or one has to admit that the brain drain of this ecosystem is amazing. You know you are developers are loving it for the most part have interesting builders who are trying to build stuff. The amount of different disciplines are coming within the space is amazing. Now where we go from there I don't know. I think Pandora's box has been open since the invention of Bitcoin. It's hard for it's hard to predict. But I am like right before this park as like I said I'm getting besides like as I mentioned Bitcoin to me even though people say it's a store of value you can't say something it's a store of value when it's fluctuating I think we will eventually get to a point where Bitcoin is stable to a certain kind of like noise frequency maybe it's like 1%, 2% sure I viewed more as censorship resistant that's what I care about the most that's fundamentally my value add for that is like if it's censorship resistant great. Now you have Ethereum where it's like okay we have more room for error we can experiment we can build stuff like OpenFi etc. Hopefully, Polkadot and Cosmos kind of hyper accelerates that for me it's like why I'm getting a little bit disillusioned is like okay let's say you know the reason why I bring this up is I have a lot of friends that want to enter the space seasoned entrepreneurs have a lot of developer friends they want to enter the space and they're asking for jobs too I'm like it's not that many jobs unless you're like your seasoned engineer they've been working for years on it I have such a huge great with people saying there's a lot of blockchain jobs I have that's one of my biggest pet peeves I'm just like yes you're right that's exactly what you're saying there is blockchain but nobody wants like a junior blockchain developer people want somebody who maybe like ten years of experience in building systems and then they got interested in blockchain like six seven months ago and they start put a lot of time into it they want someone like that that's a senior developer you want a senior blockchain developer you don't want just a blockchain developer I think the junior devs right those are great for experimentation go out there and experiment and build on these different platforms absolutely now my the thing that I'm fearful for or disillusioned is like how long will this last or can we keep on going until we find like I people will give up if they don't find a place they fit in and they can make a living from that's kind of what I'm getting at it's like you can only have so much runway and so much room without people having a sustainable business model or ecosystem that puts food on your table and so you look at these like dApps you know we mentioned a handful or you look at these new platforms like I'm trying to wrap my fucking head around it's like when are we going to come out with something that there's oh there's a business model cool we can scale this we can hire people this is what's going to make people stay here because even though with the Web 2.0 and the .com we still had business models from day one well didn't people like try to fit their like square model into like the circle whole kind of thing like you know everyone's like oh we pay people to use Facebook right but maybe you did have business models but those business models kind of died away after you got like surveillance capitalism going on like selling ads doing your data but that was not what people were thinking originally in 1995 no but like I mean where they were in the tech space you have the advertising model you have the data model on the back end you have e-commerce and actual product so you have all these different forms of business models when I look in the blockchain space you know I talked about earlier you have could be like your capital's deployed and you don't get your interest but you have access to X Y Z could be you know that's fascinating but besides that I'm I'm finding it difficult to see new models so I think another model could be almost a transaction fee model and now like we have those models kind of already but we don't have them in the context of like the way we use internet with like these micro transactions but you kind of could get if you have like more scalable blockchains where you know every time you use a transaction it costs you 0.000 that could add up over a while that could technically be a model although it exists it would exist in a very different way today like every time you like setting on Facebook every time you change the blockchain like all of that is free right now and we're dying to get more people to use these systems Patron's difficult like getting people to pay for your content is crazy because I'm going to work and so there is an opportunity right now I just don't have the answer Basic attention token we didn't talk about that I absolutely love it the first of all they've like Braves is so good Braves is nice Braves is awesome like I can develop in it like I can develop in Chrome like I'm never like worried I don't get into situations where I'm like shit this would be so much better yeah they might be handcuffed by their token so they should have an option where I can switch it's like ETH or a die or Bitcoin I don't want it I don't use it that's a fair point that's yeah that's a fair point like I rather have a switch for die than like you mentioned if I can go lend my die to somebody right away right from the browser okay that would be awesome but yeah to be fair I think they might have like came around when like tokens were all the hype no they originally was Bitcoin for Brave yeah okay no no no they've been around they did a token for the sale yeah listen like like you mentioned the product itself is phenomenal I still have a hard time seeing how they can convince the masses which were like Firefox or Chrome so my personal like switching moment was like I think Brave popped up and was like hey do you want to copy all your passwords and everything over from Chrome because we can do that with one click that's good to know yeah it's really good to know so for me it's like okay there's a sunk cost bias like listen even though like Chrome takes all your data there's so much sunk cost bias for people in Chrome or Firefox and eventually maybe you can get enough people but still the token for me it's like like my like example like my brother what's my brother gonna do with the Brave token he wants to make money he's like okay I got 50 bucks of Brave but if one click you can get like Bitcoin right here or yeah or Die or something like that they'll do that that's no that's a fantastic idea like they should do that but that might crash the price of their token I don't know I'm not an economist I'm not in space for that but like I'm just looking from a use case perspective you know that's a totally fair point like absolutely agree with it but going back to the problem what it's talk about is like the problem right now in the online space there's a ship happening so you look at YouTube and you look at the fact of you know they've had many different ad armageddon and you know they're more and more giving towards the corporate side as opposed to independent content creators have you ever had any of your stuff demonetized? anytime really? oh yes wow okay I didn't think you were such a controversial person I'm not a controversial but it's like it's all ML it's not like a manual person anytime I talk about psychedelics yeah you know for me I make fuck all from YouTube like peanuts like can't even cover my fucking cell phone bill but you know I'm luckily in a position I don't need money from YouTube but many creators depend on the revenue from YouTube or other forms of media platforms and it's getting more and more difficult and you're seeing right now a suppression of free speech on all of these platforms whether it's Twitter YouTube whether it's Facebook or we're on YouTube because a lot of creators they need that ad revenue now YouTube is a private company and they can do whatever they want the only thing I don't like about YouTube it's like if you're going to make policy don't nitpick it should be a flat policy it's like everybody it's not like oh Jesse gets special treatment why the fuck do you get special treatment it's for everybody if this is a law that's a law end of story true carpet it and I feel like there's such like a dilemma with like these platforms to go develop on you and create content and you're getting people to rely on you like they don't work without the content creators right exactly but now they're kind of putting these kind of like arbitrary laws on them based on some sort of you know whatever there is this problem right now where there's a lot of amazing content creators around the world someone needs to fundamentally solve that problem Patreon model where people are going to donate for you I think that's a failed model I think the model has to be B2B people will not pay for content they've just been so conditioned for free the model has to be a B2B model where I'm on this social media platform let's call it you know the new YouTube whatever and I'm providing content there might be ads there might not be ads who knows it might be like sponsorship products on the below it like e-commerce but there has to be a new business model for content creators you know what I've been noticing is a lot of content creators will actually have like the in-built ads that YouTube can't center like they'll talk about like sponsorship my first one yeah they'll talk about C-keeks for like the first 20 seconds C-keeks pay us because I just mentioned you guys pay up pay up yeah but yeah can't skip that and they can't demonetize that so you know but then again that kind of I don't know how these people like getting contact with like C-keeks I don't know how they like make these deals and negotiate these deals but there could be one companies that form around that but there could be like C-keeks and certain maybe blocking economic things you could actually kind of get some sort of businesses and apps working around that and connecting content to those people and having these like maybe funds or bounties almost where people can grab them like hey mention us and have this many followers and it's kind of this transaction that happens to the third party like having trade on the blockchain and there's enough money in that that it could work today with gas limits you know I think the biggest thing that the challenge for people and convincing people like oh it's easy to use no it's not listen this is an opportunity for brave if brave can onboard youtubers and match what youtubers are making and have the brave token automatically sent as ether bitcoin brave if you guys are listening this this is an actual strategy for you there's a massive disappointment of micro influencers on youtube people that have let's say 20,000 subscribers amazing content and youtube treats them as shit for the most part this is an opportunity where if you can onboard youtubers and show them some inanimate to share whether it's like you have ads on their video and you know working with your publishers on the back end but this is an opportunity whether it's brave or somebody this there's a golden opportunity right now for people to grab angry content creators and bring them on their platform yeah absolutely and yeah you kind of see like and I don't like into this idea like the actual like politics and stuff but starting to seem like every large tech company leans left of the political field so like even centrist people who are like or even people who are like and by right wing I mean like just bone sensor anything just like it's a free open platform those don't seem to exist too so that's and it kind of is what blockchain talks about it's like free open no censorship is none of the big tech companies are going that direction I don't care about private censoring I just don't care one I know there's people that will make a debate whether Facebook is a private company sorry it is it absolutely is and I think that it's going that the way that Mark Zuckerberg is going to try to appeal to like oh no come in regulate us it's just recipe for disaster oh yeah and then you're going to get to the point where well they're not a private company anymore they're a mix of private company company and the government and that's just so so much worse I just so many bad things yeah yeah that's where they're going they leap man yeah and so for me it's like listen they can do what they want I just look at laws very specific it's like if you have your terms and services on your platform you can't be nitpicking you can't be cherry picking whether Jesse gets preferred treatment over me like if there's a rule like you're not allowed to do ABC that applies for everybody you just can't have special treatment whatever they can do you and I before this conversation there's it's not really successful to protest and break things you may cause a little uproar at the beginning and some people make may notice but in the long long grand scheme of things you're not really making change change only happens when you create something superior to pre-existing let's say products or services and so for me this is maybe where like kind of blockchain can or crypto can head in general it's like that would be exciting it only comes around with an interesting product that can supersede and every fundamental way is better than YouTube or better than Facebook I mean I would probably use it and switch to it like that sounds awesome yeah I would use it in a heartbeat yeah and then that's kind of like true I think for like anything I mean getting into politics like I'm so like in admiration of people in Hong Kong it's absolutely crazy and like you start to step back and you want to get disillusioned and really think about it yeah maybe they win this battle whatever but like how many hundreds of thousand people had to come out in like March realistically in fifty a hundred two hundred years as long as things don't like fully break it's probably not going to change like it's not going to change it's just going to slow down but not going to change the creeping influence of China if we're still around in 200 years I always tell people what's the fuck story 19 like I'll give you an example my dad my dad it's in his 80s he was born 39 so World War I so he went through World War I World War II and he comes from a small village in former Yugoslavia and give you some context over here it's like no TV horse and carriage okay so that's like 80 years so let's fast forward now we have wireless computers here we have TVs are like AK we have amazing technology we're talking about self-driving cars we're talking about AGI happening we're talking about gene editing all in the span of 80 years it's actually a mind fuck when you think about it I think the better mind fuck for well the thing that gets me is like okay cool but what does that mean for the next 50 years or the next 80 years like think about where we what happened 80 years where will we be in the next 80 yeah I think that's the coolest mind because it's like I can't even predict yeah it's like okay we might have AGI we're going to have some quantum computers people are going to be fucking gene editing their stuff it always feels like things move so slowly but then you like bring up those points like that and you're like whoa it's just wait a couple like 10 more years and keep working and see what happens yeah I mean maybe there's your thing maybe you got to look at it that way your blockchain stuff it's hard to predict there's too many variables too many black swan events too many variables too many things uncertain things that we can't predict but like you got to admit that regardless of the situation like we're as a general whole human beings are living better absolutely I mean I don't want to be driven around by horse and carriage well maybe one time romantically on a date but like day to day not so much yeah and so like I know a lot of people like to complain and look on the side of things but when I view statistics and I view the quality of human lives as a whole as an earth we're we're doing exponentially better than we did 50 years ago exponentially better so I think we're moving in the right direction I think you know who was at the set a what's that person for big on way die way die you can't really control what the governments will do corporations what we can do the best for human civilization to go forward is build tools and technologies to help people it's like the law of nature there has to be checks and balances so you and I can sit here all day and let's say we're living in an authoritarian regime and we're now allowed to speak our mind there's no freedom of speech which many countries exist around the world like that and so you and I screaming it's not fundamentally going to change you and I create like I'll give you an example in Hong Kong you know they create these the wildfire app where it's like okay we can't control the fact that they can shut off and turn on the internet at will but I can take I can control tech and even for them that you have anti-encryption standards already like honestly just pick one off the shelf it's so easy people forget that encryption used to be illegal in the states yeah I think Phil Zimmerman actually almost got up to the supreme court when he sent PTP around the world yeah that's crazy yeah yeah it was a big big deal PTP didn't take that didn't take off in the public eye too much okay sorry so like PTP email so much not taking off but like the pretty good privacy like the way that we actually encrypt messages is his because of the marketing it's like even like today like proton mail it's like just needs better okay but apps like signal and telegram are using like the same standards yeah it's not called like PG but they're using PG I love signal yeah they're still encrypting and using the same way that they send messages yeah cool any final words any last thoughts of no man that was a long that was like a pretty awesome like think we took there but like yeah hey interoperability blockchains user universal wallet there you go if people want to get a hold of you and ask you any other questions what's the best resource hit me up on Twitter at abramowitz jesse yeah yeah I'll leave that in show notes alright guys alright guys hope you guys enjoyed today's episode of a mere proved like always please leave a review on iTunes head over to YouTube leave a comment and I'll see you on the next episode have a great day thanks so much for having me