 So could you please take your full name Michael John Humphress and your age please 72 and where were you born? Richmond Surrey England and As a child, what did your parents do? My father was a Royal Air Force regular Trained initially as a wireless technician Got his pilot's wings and was a fighter pilot beginning of Second World War he He was shot down over France in May 1940 badly injured Got back to England spent many months in hospital whilst they rebuilt his leg That's where he met my mother who was a registered nurse and I guess the rest is history, but he had finished up the war. He never flew again. He finished up the war as a station war officer in the Shetland Islands Was invalidated out in 1946 and And joins the civil service worked his way up through the ranks in the the board of trade and Retired as a senior executive officer in 1976 My mother after I was born she quit nursing and she just became a stay-at-home housewife Which I think was fairly standard at that time very most did Did you have a lot of siblings a brother and a sister? Yeah, and what were your interests and things to do for fun? As a child. Oh as a child. I suppose we were living in Southwest London up until the age of 11 and For fun we used to play on the bombed out building sites war games bicycle riding kicking a ball around playing soccer When I went to Teen Asia course it was grammar school and then it was Lots of homework and army cadets. So how about it in school? Were there any subjects where you excelled at or where you had a particular interest? Well School history I went to junior primary or primary junior school in in Southwest London near Wimbledon Took my 11 plus exam and Passed that at the same time my parents moved out to Surrey. So I ended up going to Serbenton County Grammar School. I took Seven subjects a general certificate of educational ornery level Basically math physics chemistry. I took Latin and French English and then went into the sixth form. I took math physics and chemistry for three years got my advanced levels and Won a place at the Royal School of Mines to study metallurgy and Also won an industrial scholarship with Richard Thomas Baldwin's Which was a five-year sandwich course a year in industry first Three years at the University take an honest degree and then another year to sort of wrap up Co-op degree is now it would be considered a bit of a co-op But the natural fact we we actually had the three solid years at university And it was just the the one year ahead of time Which was very good actually because we we worked our way all the way through an integrated steel plant System so we went to university that much older So were your plans ever to go into mining or you kind of just fell into it I I fell into metallurgy purely and simply because RTB were offering these scholarships in chemistry metallurgy Mechanical or electrical engineering and metallurgy sounded a bit more exotic than being a chemist And I talked to a neighbor who happened to be a practicing metallurgist and and that's that's how I ended up being Going into metallurgy chemistry was always my favorite subject, but What were what was the Experience you you got a working during that degree During that degree Well, the first year as I say was to go through an integrated steel plant You start at the where the coke came co-covens steel plant the blast furnaces steel plant Etc. Then you went through all the hot rolling and cold rolling Tin plate galve line and so on and over a year you worked your way through all these various departments and You worked on projects So it was a fairly good grounding in the steel industry and then three years at University the first summer vacation worked at the companies research laboratories second year Hiked off to Sweden for work there for three months in a steel plant And then course graduated the end of third year and went back to the company and I started as a development officer in the R&D group in Landward Newport in 1966 67 So Now we're in Canada. When did you actually move to Canada? I came over in 1968 Not that long after no the British steel industry was going to be renationalized by the then Labor government and The R&D group that I was working with was going to be amalgamated with another one from another steel company So that would have meant moving further west into Wales So I decided that I'd take a look and see where I could go Canada was an obvious choice I'd shared an apartment with two mechanical engineering students at Imperial who'd been hired directly by Ontario hydro in 1966 on graduation so I had contacts here and Also when I looked around the world the United States Australia New Zealand South Africa, they all had drawbacks of one Four more another not least of course the Vietnam War if you were going to go to the United States so I Opted for Canada and it's Been a very good a very good choice. Yeah, how did you find Canada? What was your first impression of? Canada my first as a whole. Oh My first impression was arriving in Toronto Airport being picked up in a 1968 Dodge Charger and whistling down the 401 I My first major impression of Canada I Stayed with friends in in Toronto until I got the job here in in Sudbury with with Inco and I Put in 30 years retired in 1998 and what were the big differences professionally between England and Canada? I Don't think there were a great deal of number of differences I think engineers here and get far more respect than they do in England It's more of a sort of continental flavor, you know, if you're an engineer in Germany, for example, they redress you as engineer but here I found Everybody was much more laid back than they were in in Britain Everybody's on the first name basis And the only other major change I saw was that working in a steel plant in Britain or any heavy industry in Britain There were cafeterias on site where you can get a subsidized meal No such thing at Inco You had to go out for lunch or you bought in a sandwich or whatever they had lunch rums, but that was it But working work wise Fairly similar very similar I had a very steep learning curve for the first few months changing from steel industry to to nickel industry, but and it was all new So it was it was exciting. It was exhilarating So could you go a bit through your your career? I didn't go just kind of briefly and then maybe we'll stop long way. Okay Joined in Co in September 68 Went to the smelter supposedly for three weeks and three years later. I got out of there I I Was taken on as a graduate engineer made it to project leader in a few weeks and I ended up as the section leader and nine months later and From there I did a small stent in the paramedological laboratory and then I moved over to in 1971 to the nickel refinery which was in its final stages of Building and construction I Was the if you like the process engineer for the converter plant there Spent until 1976 there then I'm Transferred to the mineral dressing test center completely different Area Away from pyro metallurgy and into the the mineral dressing side of the business Few years there back to the lab as the section leader in charge of the pyro metallurgy laboratory then I went to Mac processing And then they amalgamated Mac processing in the smelter. So I came full circle in about 1982 Got involved with the environmental control group within smelter tech services Then moved into the the technical side of the the business of pyro metallurgy metallurgy side of it and ended up as the superintendent of tech services and Spent three years as the superintendent and of the smelter complex research group and then Are retired in 1998 The real question. Did you Officially retire or was there some consulting or other? I I left on pretty good terms and So I got the odd call to could I come in and take a look at this or take a look at that Some years it was one or two weeks other years. It was months and then in 19 No in 2008 I was asked by Hatch Associates here in Sudbury if I would get involved in Looking at flow sheets for the next stage of the sulfur dioxide abatement project for what is now valet and I spent five months six months with them putting together various scenarios and training one of their very smart young engineers and They picked up everything I knew in six months took me three years to get there But yes, it was that and that was that was very interesting, but I haven't done anything since 2008 Okay, what would have been your? Favorite part of your career is there a specific job or Specialization I would say that the There were two things to two two periods that I that I really enjoyed one was starting up the the converter plant in the Nick refinery and the other was starting up the bulk furnaces and and so on in the the new bulk smelter that was started up in 1993-94 and I mean that's still basically an ongoing project Could you talk a bit about the the beginnings of the coppercliff Nick refinery? Well, I went over there in 1971 as I say at that time the plant was still under construction There were no offices, so we we had cubicles in the warehouse Reviewed the various engineering drawings and all that kind of stuff and then We started to hire the staff They got the control room operators in and they got the foreman in and so on and we actually started the plant up with staff And it wasn't until we'd sort of ironed out some of the bugs I don't know how many bugs there were in the high pressure carbonyl plant, but there's certainly a few major problems starting up in the in the converter plant Which we sold very quickly we had to And then we bought in the unit guys and trained them and so on let's take over The problems we had for example the the feed for that plant the converter plant produced a crude nickel that was then granulated and shipped over to the carbonyl plant for refining they extracted the the nickel and some of the iron as a carbonyls and then from that they by destroying the carbonyl by heating it they would create pure pellets or powders and so on so The first thing was that the the the feed for the top blown rotary converters were supposed to be briquetted and It didn't work It was a blend of metallics from the mach processing plant a Resin tube from Thompson Manitoba and also a sulfur cake from Thompson and the metallics and the sulfur were supposed to react together and Form very hard briquettes. Well when the test work was done people had blended these things together Put it in 45 gallon of drums and shipped it down to Comrax grieves for testing and they produced perfect pellets perfect briquettes No problem at all When you got the raw material directly from the mach processing plant with about 4% moisture in it We found we needed about seven passes through the Briquette impress before you driven off the moisture and you and you generate enough heat for the reaction to take place So we scrapped it. We we went with Concentrate feed into the TV RC's which in turn of course led to more dust carryover hood creations and build up in the flu system So that was the first thing that we had to play with and then the first few heats The the TV RC's produced a 45 ton melt at about 1640 degrees Celsius. It's pretty hot That's why you needed a roti furnace and The the material was you charged it you melted in with an oxynatr gas flame Then you blew some of the sulfur out to bring the copper to sulfur ratio down to about three and a half to one And then you had to back reduce with coke to remove nickel oxide and dissolved oxygen in the melt That melt was then poured into a Refractory line ladle and taken up and put into an induction furnace Unfortunately, we didn't back reduce the first few melts very well and we ended up with a couple hundred tons of nickel oxide scrapped the induction furnace and Very quickly we had to put in sliding gate bowels on the bottom of the refractory line ladles And we put a tilting tundish in and we granulated from those Again, it was a very quick decision to do that Granulation You pouring hot metal sixteen hundred odd degrees into a water stream probably about half a ton a minute of metal Maybe I think make so very serves me correctly about three thousand gallons a minute of water and The material that would then be granulated fine shot go into a dewatering bin and These were quite efficient, but the water carried just a very small Amount of solids over with it and after we've been operating for a few months somebody took a look at the cooling tower Which was wooden? We were in dire danger of Collapsing the structure because we made it that much heavier. Yes. I mean the nickel the nickel settled out in the cooling tower so Again a very quick decision we built or we purchased a lamella thickener clarifier Because it had a small footprint on the ground so we could fit it in reasonably well and Again as I say a very quick decision to do that and this was the first application of this technology at inco so I was quite pleased with that The other thing was that the gas is coming out of the TBRC's cost they have to go they have to go through an evaporative cooling tower and then before they went through a hot gas preset and the the evaporation chambers had a series of sprays in the roof and These were activated by the discharge temperature from the from the tower Supposed to be a dry-bottom operation But the sprays were a they were too coarse and B There were about 18 of them and they were worked in increments of about three gallons a minute That result was we had a wet-bottom operation and we had this highly acidic slurry Which we then had to redirect to a small thickener Throwing sodium hydroxide balls and every now and again we dumped the whole lot out on the floor To recycle the material through the TBRC so not a very pleasant operation as you can imagine so I contacted a Company called sonic development. They came in and we did some test work using sonic nozzles and basically these are fairly sophisticated nozzles which nozzles which Shattered the water into a much finer spray and the whole thing was modulated You had water and the high-pressure air which was modulated to to create this and we went to a dry-bottom operation So very pleased with that. So, you know starting up the first few years a lot of a lot of Problems, but we solved them quickly and successfully a lot of things to adjust on the go. Absolutely. Yeah, no choice You had mentioned a few times the Bateman program But you would I think you had worked or can I at least talk about Incas and Bateman program to reduce sulfur dioxide emissions. Yes Ah Inco when I came here in 1968 Inco was putting out between 45 hundred and sixty two hundred metric tons a day of sulfur dioxide And just before we go further could you explain a bit what are the effects of sulfur dioxide? Well, in layman's terms. Well, first of all, it's not very pleasant. It's an acidic gas. You can't breathe it, okay? and the other thing is if you if you have a Plume with high levels of SO2 in it and it contacts the ground it burns the vegetation And it also of course creates acid rain in the atmosphere and we ended up during the mold We only regained years of having an acid rain agreement with the United States to cut back the emissions because Eventually, of course the acid rain eats away buildings so That was the that was the basis of it now in nineteen seventy one I guess seventy seventy one we've built the twelve hundred and fifty foot stack and that Resulted in us being able to discharge the gas much higher because the old stacks This is three hundred and eighty meters the old stacks were about a hundred and fifty meters So we had the single largest point source of Sulfur dioxide and the North American continent obviously contributing Significantly to the acid rain problem By discharging higher we managed to clean up the the the ground level concentrations around Sudbury So that you didn't have to I I mean I actually on occasion. I had to wear a gas mask even in my office Try answering the telephone With a gas mask not very pleasant So that was that was the start now With the stack that was one thing but also they then started to to remove Pyrotype, which is an iron sulfide from the from the concentrate in the milling process and by 73 to 78 we were down to from about to fifty four hundred shall we say down to three thousand tons a day of SO2 And that continued then down to about 1900 tons a day by about 1984 and during that time the mills had done their part of the job by by Removing the pyrotype At the same time a lot of research and development work was done that our research facilities in Toronto poor coal and research stations Thompson and copper cliff smelters to come up with a a new smelting operation that Would allow us to fix More of the sulfur dioxide either as acid or as liquid SO2 and eventually the decision was made to go with a bulk Concentrate smelter, so we built a couple of flash furnaces. We put in a big acid plant We completely changed the the copper smelter in in in in copper cliff putting in a new a new processes which use top blowing and bottom stirring and so on so a lot of innovation went into it and I forget what the cost was but it was it was probably close to a billion dollars or so in the in though in that time To do that and we got the first furnace started up on nickel concentrate in 1993 and we went over to bulk in 1994 as Result of that we bought down the SO2 emissions to somewhere in the 700 to 750 ton a day range Which was compared to initially initially let's say an average of about 5400 Okay, so a significant reduction In 2006 few years after I retired they they started to fix the FBR gases in map processing and That bought the discharge down by about another 180 tons a day now the final piece of the puzzle is to fix the converter gases and Once that's done, we should they should be down I say we they should be down somewhere less than 40 tons a day of of sulphur dye upside emission to the atmosphere so if you know Significant improvement. Yeah, okay, and it's had an amazing effect. Of course in the Sudbury region I mean the when we built the the the new smelter if you like was was retrofitted into the existing one Whilst we were still operating the old system. There was no there was no cutback in operation a lot of admiration for the engineers who who managed to sort of fit it all together and do that But work room environment Significant improvement in the work room environment a lot better lighting a lot cleaner a lot less gas a lot less dust and the external environment Well the company also not only worked with Government and and the universities and so on they did all this to to Put vegetation back on a lot of very barren rock and They also Grew pine seedlings underground in Crate and mine and to they would spend a year sort of like hydroponics and And then they bring the the plants up to the surface to to to acclimatize for a year and then they plant them out I forget how many millions of trees now, but I think it's somewhere in the six seven eight million trees have been planted around the Sudbury region since the 70s and So a real re-greening. Yeah, no kidding and now it's It's I think it's rated one of the most beautiful cities in Canada something like that Well, I'll put it this way. We we have several hundred lakes around the area And with the trees and so on. I mean it's it's it's not a bad place to to live I mean when I first came here, I always refer to it as a one-horse-hick mining town. It's very much a Very nice Town now, it's it's it's got everything you need here. Yeah, it used to back in the day didn't it the NASA came here to Yes, they train the astronauts simulate Mars, right? Well the moon or the moon sorry. Yeah. Yeah moon. That's what I mean. Yeah Well, the Sudbury Basin was created we believe by meteorite impact and so there are things called shatter cones and They they came up here to Be trained if you like on what the geology of the moon was going to look like I'm not a geologist, but that's basically I think why they came here, okay It didn't have to do with a lot of them the barren or dead land. Well, I was created by the emissions The countryside was pretty barren around the the smelter And so on and that's where they that's where they went just around the back of the smelter and the acid rain or the Sulfur dioxide and so on over the over across time Coupled with the fact that when they first started smelting in the Sudbury region they cut down trees They cut the trees down put a layer of logs put a layer of ore layer of logs and so on and they had the then they'd set fire to it Okay, I had to drive off the sulfur dioxide or the sulfur as sulfur dioxide, so of course this had a Very negative impact here. Yeah look like a volcano and Very barren I Would say now probably in a few years They'll probably have to strip some of the vegetation off the rock just to show what the old rock look like I Mean, it's it's you know, they've done a very good job Yeah Do you more of a social question here, but do you believe there's a disconnect between This industry and the general public in Canada? Well the public probably had a Very poor opinion of heavy industry Funerally simply because of the the the pollution I mean my wife is a local girl and and she she would say you know You used to go downtown Sudbury to go shopping and they you know You see the the air turning blue as the gas came through. Well, that doesn't doesn't really Sit well with the general public I Think you know the resource industries by and large Have a very cleaned up their act part of it from pressure obviously from government, but I Mean, you know in in 2014 I think the numbers were that the resource industries were accounted for 20% of GDP employed 1.8 million people and I don't think it really helped when our prime minister turned around and said it wasn't the resources beneath our feet But the resource when there's between our ears that was going to be important in the future I think that was a smart Alec remark But if he'd said both together then that would have been a smart thing to say You know Politicians are always full of we need World-class Canadian industries. We need Research and development dollars spent to create new processes new Materials new products We need to add value to the products we sell Well, I work for a company like that for 30 years They were Leaders in not just developing but also adopting or adapting technology In minerals re in minerals exploration mining you're going to be talking to Greg Vaden later today Greg was very involved in the developing of remote mining techniques So you you know the prime minister could sit in his office in a chair and he could control a drill or a scoop tram underground to create mine The company over the years Leader in in the development in the use of tonnage oxygen for smelting with the Inco flash furnace top-blowing bottom-stirred vessels fluid bed roasting And so on so a lot of these things and then of course pressure carbon elation for refining and the production of pure pellets and pure powders and and some of these specialist powders I mean, you know that they come out of our premium and what's happened to that company What's happened to all that R&D effort? It's no longer Canadian it remains to be seen whether valet Taking over Enco was a good move or not for Sudbury for the province for Canada The jury's still out Okay What what is your opinion on on that phenomenon because it is I guess a phenomenon a lot of Canadian companies in this industry specifically who are disappearing or Are still there but under non-canadian means Well, I I don't want to sound like a socialist but If you have Foreign government owned or controlled or financed companies coming in With deep pockets and taking over Canadian industries I don't think unless there's reciprocity can we go back in there and take over them the answer is no So until there's reciprocity, I don't think they should be encouraged nor allowed to to take over The How many Canadian oil companies have taken over a Chinese oil company? I'm not aware of any and yet now we have a government that's saying well Maybe we need to sit down and and have a free trade packed with the Chinese Be very careful. That's all I'm gonna say be very very careful because you can end up gutting all the head office jobs all the infrastructure of these industries and The profits go overseas next question is a Mouthful and a near full and that's a question in your opinion So in your opinion, are there any events? people inventions Contributions disasters anything whatsoever. I think we just answered that one. Yeah, is that because I was gonna say yeah Yeah, that must be discussed when when talking about the natural resources in Canada and and I was gonna say The quite the topic we just talked about the disappearance of a lot of Canadian companies is actually a recurring Subject in this in this question. Well, I think again going back to what I said just now if you were taken over by another large mining company that For example If we've been taken over by Rio Tinto or somebody like that Well, you know, there's an opportunity for reciprocity there But when you're taken over by a government owned or financed company You're you're you know, you're really giving away the baby with the bathwater so I Feel quite strongly about that and it was a quite a traumatic event. I think for the sub-region and Again, you know, the politicians make an awful lot of noise about some of this stuff But when push came to shove when inco tried to merge with Falcon bridge No help at all Okay We had a one year strike Here in Sudbury and our local MPP you he wouldn't he didn't make any sound at all I knew he had a conflict of interest, but he could have declared his conflict of interest When you have a foreign company that won't even negotiate For the best part of 12 months There's something wrong with our systems that Cannot bring the two sides to a table And I made the point to several politicians that Every mining company and smelting company you have to have operating licenses to do these things Maybe the the pressure point with these foreign companies is to turn around and say listen We will remove your operating license or we'll suspend it for a period of time and tell you sit down and talk Anyway, that's as far as I'm prepared to go with that Okay We'll we'll We'll change the subject a bit Question regarding women the presence or absence of women has that changed? Well, what has it been like significantly? in 68 there might have been One or two secretaries female secretaries out in the plants But for the most part the female Population such as it was would be an analyst in the lab and secretarial staff in the in the in the general office In the 70s in the nickel refinery, I know we started to hire one or two female for the unit not just Technicians or our engineers And that's progressed Over the years and by the time I retired I mean the last few years we were hiring or we were taking on an engineering training program for young engineers and I used to hire probably as many women as I as I hired women engineers as I would hire men So I would say by the by the late 1990s a lot of women not only in the unit But women had moved up into section leader and superintendents positions not just in just in process take but also in in operations so complete complete change now as It is 50 50 equality. I don't think so but The efforts were made and and certainly at INCO just because you were You know if you were an engineer and you had a certain You know position it didn't matter whether it was male or female. You got paid that rate for the job kind of deal So now whether there's a glass ceiling in there somewhere. I don't know I Think they might have a bit more problem perhaps with valet and the Brazilian Style of management Again, I can't I can't comment. I can't I can't guess I mean I In the early days when more women you start integrating more women Where any of them met with any animosity or or was it a fairly good? I didn't I didn't I didn't see any any real animosity Now if you there if there were certain what should I say Prohibitions perhaps of having women work underground in the mining sector But I've never worked in the mines. So I'm not sure but I I know but It was considered a bad luck to employ women underground There are women working underground now and I don't think we've had any disasters so No, it's right. Just talked about that in my last interview this morning. Yeah about It was with Gord Slade. Yeah for Falcon Bridge and how he was one of the first to to bring at least women because Back in his day women only work there But they weren't allowed to ever even go down to visit or take a look So he was one of the first to invite the ladies to go down and then the families and yeah like that on weekends So take that stigma away when the Queen first came here, you know, I mean that was that was That was almost a revolution to put her into a boiler suit and let it go underground. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah Throw your career. Have you had a a or a few mentors? Is there someone that stands out in my career? No There are there are there are one or two people. I mean I let's be honest I I worked for a lot of very good men who Far more knowledgeable than I and I learned a lot from them But in terms of One mentor would have been a fellow who lived next door to me back home in England I wasn't doing very well at ordinary level physics He was a young guy next door. He was An engineer with decorator He had left school Been called up to his national service didn't know what the heck he was going to do So he trained as a radar technician found his his It's calling calling Went to university after he finished his national service and So anyway He sat down with me and over the course of three months He worked through the complete ordinary level physics syllabus and I passed the exam with flying colors So if you like he was probably a very good mentor, but the guy that probably had the most influence on my life was my father It's not that we always saw eye to eye far from it, but um A living with a regimental sergeant major is not easy So I was a very shy introvert fellow And when I hit 13 The commanding officer of the school cadet corps army cadet corps sent home a form Because it was voluntary then Prior to that it had been compulsory. He was now voluntary Had to have parental permission so they could get you into the army cadets if you wish to join Well, my father there was no discussion. My father volunteered me and uh It was a turning point because I was forced to become far more extrovert If you want to teach a squad of cadets Stand up in front of a group of people And so on You have to become more extrovert. I went on to become a senior school prefect I not only was a member of the school cadet corps I went on the adult staff and taught at an outside cadet corps as an adult sergeant when I was 18 and That scholarship that I got with Richard Thomas Baldwin's in large part Was due to the fact that Because of all the work I had done with cadets Plus obviously academic ability um When I was interviewed The interviewer was uh an ex-indian army colonel. So all that Cadet work stood me in very good stead paid off Um, I think they put out 16 scholarships that year Out of uh 5 000 plus applicants So You know, it was uh, it was uh, uh, a very good move and at university I went through the officer's training corps. I was commissioned into the territorial army as a second lieutenant in 1966 and uh, so on so it It was something which allowed me to or forced me to become more extrovert And to develop whatever leadership potential I may or may not have had so You know, I seem to find that just about any organization I I I join whether it be you know, sort of Kiwanis club or the opera guild I always seem to end up, you know as the president and uh So Yes, it was it was a it was a turning point in my life and uh For that I thank him He knew more about me than I did. Yeah. All right. Well, I said parents are four sometimes Even if it's it doesn't seem uh fair or right When it happens, um, just two a few um closing questions One would be uh, what would be the proudest? What are you proudest of in your professional career? My professional career, I would say Uh, the contribution I made to the team that started up the nickel refinery converter plant and again The the effort that we put in to get the bulk smelter up and running I would say those those are the two Things that really stand out than I'm proudest of And of course then the side effect Of all that has been The improvement in the in the environment around the subree area. Okay. So, uh, You know, you can see that when you drive around in the summertime Quite significant Which I'll have to do one day. Yes and the last question If you were to speak to someone much younger like a younger self or a student Or cadet What would be the most important life lesson or piece of advice you would give them? Oh Well regarding their their future Whether it be professional or I think there are just a few Rules one try and live by the golden rule Do unto others as you would have them do unto you You upset far fewer people that way Secondly Balance your career with your home And social responsibilities Your job's important because it puts food on the table and a roof over your head But and hopefully it will also lead to you know, self-fulfillment and so on The higher needs that that we have as human beings your home is important It's a refuge It's a place to go when you need support rest relaxation because not every day is a sunny day And As far as the social responsibilities can put something back into the community Join a service club teach our coach young people in A sport or cadets or the scouts or something along those lines Volunteer to raise money for a charity or whatever, but do something get it back because You're going to be retired probably these days. You're going to be retired for 20 or 30 years if you've Got some of these hobbies and interests and so on they carry over Um, and you you you find yourself Very busy Finally remember you're never indispensable So it's always a good idea to Try and bring your subordinates along let them reach their potential and if they wish to move Don't hold them back because once you're retired and they call you back. You may be working for them Okay, uh Now on the other hand, there's always some people you'll meet or you'll have in your employer that you can't help They know there's that saying you can't fix stupid. Well, you know, you always come across some of those As my wife who is a who was a nurse Says, you know, you you can't fix stupid, but you can Give them a sedative So Those are those would be the three things lived by the golden rule balanced your your life and Remember, you know it indispensable Well, thank you Is there anything else you'd like to add? No, just to say thank you very much for the opportunity to talk. Thanks for the time