 and the, oh, wow, a lot of heartland Vermont and I see a lot of city employees on the on the zoom with us so welcome everyone to this really important discussion. Again, thank you to our partners at Echo and, and yesterday, Patrick Brown for really making sure that a year does not pass even in these really challenging times without us properly reflecting on the life of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. What what he stood for and what his life demands of us today. We certainly have had a year of real focus and debate and in many ways progress on racial justice issues and so we will we couldn't have done this event a year ago and had a director of racial equity inclusion and belonging and I used to green leading being on this panel she joined us in April. We heard apartment was expanded midway through to include Skyler and and Blaine another great now member of the CEDA team. We, and I won't, I won't belabor everything that has happened over the last year we all know it's been a major year. In terms of our reckoning on racial justice and that certainly has included Burlington, I am proud that Burlington has become perhaps the first jurisdiction versus city in America to really try to grapple with its responsibility for slavery and to create in fact a distinguished task force to really study and bring the light the facts regarding slavery and how it manifests itself here in this community. We know no one knows exactly where that conversation is going to lead. That's one of the reasons we're doing this so much about northern slavery is unknown and needs to be uncovered and that is one of our goals. With this task force, we are also trying to grapple with what you know what was the city of Burlington's actual responsibility for slavery and as we uncover that what does that mean for today and what is our responsibility to try to mitigate and these hundreds of years later undo the damage that slavery did and that rippled through the generations that followed. So I'm really thankful for this panel and this forum for doing some of that grappling and doing some of that work together. And I'm really appreciative that we have such distinguished guests that have joined us from outside of Burlington to help us do that. And, you know, with that, I think I should get out of the way and let the discussion debate begins. Thank you all for being involved in this. Thank you, Mayor Weinberger for your words and that introduction to keep us moving. I am Wanda heading Grant. I am the vice president for diversity, inclusion and equity at the University of Vermont. And it is my honor to serve as a facilitator. I first wanted to start with an apology. I did not realize we were actually live as I was asking people to say hello. And so some of that you may have heard, but I have a few things I'd like to say. You know, I want to thank Skylar Nash from the from the Office of Racism, Equity and Inclusion and Belonging for asking me to facilitate such an important conversation as part of the city of Burlington's Dr. Martin Luther King's Day celebration. Today's questions at hand are, what is reparations? Do the United States owe a financial? How about a moral debt to the modern day descendants of slaves? What about states and cities? What are their roles? Is reparation the solution for making amends for historical injustices, crimes or not? These questions and others have led to a passionate political debate or debates divides and hopes. What does a conceptual framework for reparation look like? What does it all involve? And how is the city of Burlington and other municipalities moving forward to address, discuss and think about great historical injustices? I said yes to facilitating such an important discussion because I have dedicated my life, my career to empowering and uplifting marginalized and underrepresented and disenfranchised communities because others did so for me. I was eager to explore with scholars, experts in our Vermont community how we as a society unite and pull people, especially historically oppressed and contemporarily oppressed groups and individuals from poverty to prosperity. How do the haves join with the ham knots to create a legacy with new sets of values, values that don't produce the ignorance, hatred, hostility, anger and violence that we saw on January 6? A hostility and hatred for someone who looks like me, a hostility and hatred for a group, a group of people who are somebodies, a group of people that embody beauty, phenomenalness, yes, that's a word, pride, intelligence, blackness and a culture that not only helped to build what we call the America, the United States of America, but in many situations where we have birthed as a group of people and delivered the very ideas and creations and interventions that you and your four parents have survived and thrived off even today and every day. We cannot continue to dismiss the actions of January 6, Charleville voter suppression and so forth as political divisions or some unprecedented behavior. There is consistency in these atrocities, sorry, and these atrocities. I don't have to tell you what they are. You know what they are. We must tell the truth, teach the history, our history, no matter the ugliness, so that whatever you support or not support around reparations, you are more fully and accurately understanding of what's at state. I understand that that Confederate flag, that battle flag and other symbols of white supremacy and hatred seen on January 6, 1930, 1963, not 1865 if I want to go back, that that flag, that battle flag at our nation's capital is a neon sign that says bigotry is alive and living well all in our institutions and that black and African Americans and others cannot wait until the other half of our nation agree to being better to us and doing better by us. Let's get real. Let's listen. Let's learn so that we may be doers of good things for the betterment of all of us, we must unite, stand and learn together to exile racism and other forms of oppression. This is a specific conversation, a discussion about black people being enslaved, and how to prepare something that is broken, how to repair something that is broken, the pain, the strife, the suffrage, the labor and so forth of black people. Please understand as we go forward, that this is in no way to minimize others who have suffered at the hands of others. But today's discussion will not be watered down nor minimized. We will work to uplift the truth and history around and surrounding the enslavement of black men and women from the moment they landed and what we know as America, US America. This is about truth and reconciliation. So with that in mind, happy heavenly birthday to Dr. King, and I welcome you all to this panel discussion, reparation and reconciliation. So let's meet our panelists for some. Let's meet them again, and for others meeting them for the first time. I would like to ask our esteemed panel to say their name, give their title. And let me know, I think I already know how you would like for me, as well as the other panelists to refer to you. And we'll try to do that as quickly as possible and jump into this conversation. And I'm going to kick us off with starting with Taisha. Thank you, Wanda. It's so hard to follow you. You think I'm such a mentor, and that was that was beautifully said and spoken, and I wanted to say that. Hi everyone, my name is Taisha Green. I am the director of racial equity inclusion and belonging. Please refer to me just as Taisha. We don't have to go any further than that. And that's those were your only questions correct Wanda. Okay. Thank you. I'm down. Hi, my name is Sean del Bernie speaks, and I am the senior advisor to the Office of Mayor Laza. I am also a certified life coach, a woman empowerment, Mongol, I like to say that I'm a relationship specialist, as well as I am a co author of a very new book that was just released women creating impact. I'm a woman of faith, mom, wife, and my greatest challenge lately is being the project manager for the African American ambassador group, which is a group that was established by myself and the mayor of Providence that this group works on social justice reform change inclusion and diversity. We facilitate this call weekly with the community in the mayor and I'm honored to be here on today. Thank you. How about the Bishop Dr Jeffrey Williams. Good morning, everyone and again thank you for inviting me to be part of this panel discussion. It is very emotional to say the least and there's really no way to work through these issues without expressing some of that emotion. But I am appreciative of this of this framework that we're working in today. You can refer to me as Jeff, unless you are in the presence of my mother and father, then you must give me my do. Jeff works. I serve as a as a bishop in the Lord's Church and with responsibilities locally and globally. And I do serve at the pleasure of Mary Laura's in the city of Providence and chandelle Bernie speaks as it relates to the ambassadors group that meets on a weekly basis. Thank you Jeff and and forgive me if I slip into that bishop a little bit as one of God this is where I go sometimes so thank you. Thank you. Hi Keith, you introduce yourself. Sure. Hi everyone it's a pleasure to be here with you on celebrating this day of service. Martin Luther King day, and I'm currently in Asheville, North Carolina I'm a consultant and former member of Asheville City Council. I do a little bit of consulting work. My pronouns are he him his, you can just refer to me as Keith for the duration of this program and I appreciate everybody being here and the opportunity to be able to share whatever knowledge, compassion, and service I can be up to this group. Wonderful, thank you. And Stephanie. Thanks. Hi, I'm Stephanie so we know I'm a professor of economics at the University of Vermont. I've been doing research on inequality by gender and race for about 25 years. And I in the last 10 years have focused a lot of efforts at looking at racial disparities in policing in Vermont and elsewhere. And I'm honored to be asked to be part of this illustrious panel and I wanted to just reference the bishop's comment with how emotional this issue is. And I really appreciate him saying that because I think oftentimes we, especially us as academics are asked to sort of speak in a very neutral tone but the truth is that it's very difficult to talk about race to hear about people's stories of their experiences without having that affect us and I think that really to deal with racism we have to meld the mind with the heart. And I'm sure that we will do that today. Well, I thank you all for being here and getting ready to tell your truth as I move forward and as the facilitator what I will ask is that we each take some responsibility for the amount of time we take to answer a question and also allow me as the facilitator to jump in and do my thing as need be to help us move forward. So all in love. So I'm going to kick us off by asking Tyisha a question. Can you please share with those who are watching the rest of the panelists about your work in the city of Tell us a little bit about your arrival and how did you get introduced to this work around reparations and reconciliation and as well as if you can it's a mouthful but as well as maybe give a little bit of highlight around the work of the task force. I feel like that's an essay question coming from Professor, I would do my best to to answer all of those. I came into this work. I'm going to start there. I think I've always been a part of this work on some level I was in it for 20 years and it is a very white male dominated space and so I had to create space for myself. So I came into this work, you know, honestly, but I didn't decide to make the shift until President Obama's farewell speech, when he said I'm asking you to believe not in my ability to change but your ability to change. And so, at that time I applied to go back to school for my master's in racial justice and the rest is history. I'm sorry my internet keeps my screen keeps flashing on my internet is unstable so give me a second here. Sometimes you have to do that to to make it. Okay, so sorry about that. Um, and, and so coming to Burlington was never like my, it was never my first choice. Burlington is pretty white and, and I was a little bit nervous about what it mean, what it meant to be in a space that claims to be so progressive, but yet so white. It seemed like a contradiction to me. But I got here in in March and like the mayor said I started working for the city in April. And one of the first things that I thought about was Juneteenth. But we're in the middle of a pandemic and I knew that there was no Juneteenth celebration sponsored by the city before that time. And I focused most of my time into planning a Juneteenth celebration for 2021 thinking, well maybe you know we can be outside of the pandemic then. But understanding that Freedom Day means something very special to me is more, more special than the Fourth of July which only white men who owned property were actually free. And we're talking about freedom from, from chattel slavery from the brutality of that and so the work surrounding the reparations task force kind of came out of just, you know, talking with city counselors, I knew that they wanted to do it, and to guide that discussion with them and the mayor was was all on board with doing this reparations task force to study chattel slavery and the effects of chattel slavery and make recommendations after that. So that's pretty much how kind of come full circle a little bit how I got here and how we are how I'm now the chair of the reparations task force and how we're going to start off that study pretty soon here. But I know that we're going to uncover some stuff that will be very harmful to our own mental health and our own. The way that we recognize how slavery has impacted us today. So, I'm actually but I'm actually looking forward to it which is kind of odd I'm looking forward to that discussion. Thank you I understand that I'm honest and as I said this morning how excited I am to have this conversation so I get that excitement and what might feel like such a strange way. Now, we know that there are not many jurisdictions government jurisdictions that have said that they needed to or wanted to explore reparations or reconciliation, I like to invite Shondelle in the bishop next to really share what's been going on in their city and around this topic and how have they chosen to explore and examine reparations and reconciliation. Hello, everyone. So, I just, I wanted to make sure that I didn't leave out anything so I have some notes here. So, with our city of Providence started out with this process with COVID at the beginning of 2020. There was a group of faith leaders that came to the mayor and they wanted to talk about how a COVID was affecting the BIPOC community, especially the black community where Providence, the city of Providence is very small. It was very congested. There were a lot of people that were getting sick, because they could not social distance due to the living quarters and situations that we have there's a lot of multi families it's a lot of apartment houses and so we met with that in mind and the mayor ended up signing in executive order. It was called National Day of Prayer COVID-19 from then they still wanted to meet and that's how the African American Ambassador group was birth around March, February, March of 2020 it happened. Very, very fast. We gathered community leaders I was recruiting whoever I could to bring them to a virtual table with the mayor to discuss the pandemic and how it was affecting our community in Providence and we had a lot of allies come. Providence has a huge population of non-black people and so our demographics are very off to say the least and so we have a lot of allies that have come to the table and really like are trying to talk with us and build with us and see how can they help in regards to what's happening in our city with COVID and also how do we frame this work around reparations, reconciliation, truth telling and we've done a lot and I hope that I answered that but it's just it's so much. I don't want to take up a lot of time, but we have done a lot of work in regards to reconciliation and truth telling. Thank you, Chandel. It's all coming clear and what I want to be able to do is get to a place where we're able to look and see if there's some things that are resonating in this work that we're doing around hoping and sharing the truth around this. Jeff, will you add to that? Yeah, I would and well certainly Chandel is, you know, I don't even know what to say in terms of her level of commitment to bring these things forward. This group under the Mayor's leadership with Chandel and others is meeting weekly and drawing a line between or from the enslavement of people to how it affects what we're doing on a daily basis in city government and life in other areas as well. And there's about 70 people on average that gather at the same time on a Thursday and the Mayor is present, which is extremely unusual. I don't think, I think I've missed more meetings as a facilitator than the Mayor has. I don't think he's missed the meeting. And the idea is to task groups of people with very specific roles to ferret out where and how the enslavement of people has affected us, people of color in our city, the institutionalization of racism and other matters. And so this truth telling, which is a real critical element of it is messy work, but our leadership is willing to get in there and to let it be messy, because it is. There's no way around that. Anyone who wants to kind of just put a commission together and kind of pull off some policies, it doesn't work that way. Partly because we must go so deep, because the problems are so profound. The impact is, is, is in our water system, literally. We must go there and be able to tell that story, and then from that built to a case of reparations. And one of the arguments with reparations as a result of that is the fact that people don't really know the story. At least that's my hope. If you knew the story, then you'd have to say that something has to be done. I'm going to I'm going to err on the side of that that that the problem is that people just don't know. But the more we go into it, the more we realize that it's in our air, it's in our water, it's in the very fabric of our society. And, and the work that Chandel is doing with the mayor and the group of people on a volunteer basis on top of it. It's pretty profound. Thank you, Jeff. I was sharing earlier that I had a chance to listen to Chandel and a TED talk. And thank you sister for the work that you do. Thank you very much. Thank you. This messy work, this complex work, this complicated work. I'm going to ask Keith to share with us a little bit about what's happening in Asheville and, and just how messy that it can be. You know, the history of this country is, is messy. And what's going on in Asheville right now and Asheville, North Carolina is, we are working toward reconciliation of the wrongs that have been done on July the 14th of 2020. And the city of Asheville made an essential act of contrition and apologizing for its participation and sanctioning of the enslavement of black people. They made more apologies for the enforcement of segregation, and it's accompanying discriminatory practices. Apologize and we are seeking to make amends for carrying out an urban renewal program that destroyed multiple successful black communities. We called on other organizations and institutions in our city that have advanced and benefited from racial inequity to join the city in its apologies and we invited them to address racism within their own structures and programs and to work with the city to comprehensively address systemic racism. We also asked that the state of North Carolina and the federal government to initiate policy making and provide funding for reparations at a state and national level. And we've, we directed our city manager at the time, who is still there to establish a process within the next year from that July 14th date to develop short medium and long term recommendations to specifically address the creation of generational wealth and boost economic mobility and opportunity for the black community. We have a equity and inclusion department, which we fully support, and we've asked that staff within its work to work with our city manager to utilize their talents when forming policies and programs that will establish the creation of generational wealth and address reparations due in the, in the black community. A few more things and I won't, I won't take up everybody's time because I know everybody has to have time to speak but we also are seeking to establish within the next year a new commission empowered to make short medium and long term recommendations that will significantly progress us toward repairing the damage caused by the public and private systemic racism. I think, you know, there is this concept in America that is the American dream that we all have an equal opportunity to generate the kind of wealth that establishes the words life, liberty, the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, even though black Americans in this country have been denied that we have a story pass in this country, and a history that continues to haunt us. As the gentleman before me spoke about that history, that story, and that history haunts us to this day through policies and procedures that hinder our unabated opportunity that everyone wants. So based on that history and current systemics enters the importance of reparations in this day and time. And the city of Asheville sought to make amends for that and it's continuing to do that and we hope that what we have done here in the city of Asheville will be a learning point for everyone else around the country to take what we've done to replicate it and to also try to fix some of those systemic issues. Thank you so much for speaking on that and I really what resonated to me is hearing about, you know, just kind of doubling down on the echoes of, you know, systemic systematic racism or isms. You know, the all the anatomies around it and what takes place. I'm going to take a moment and I want to touch base and ask Stephanie Segwino. And before I do ask Stephanie this question. Ty, Tyisha, I would like for you to think about what's resonating as you hear about what some of the work that's going on in Providence and Asheville, but Stephanie, you know, your work is known nationally and of course those of us in the state of Vermont in and as a colleague at the University of Vermont, you have done some heroic work around, you know, I love to make up words, you know, around this work and equity and so many things. Can you, can you, can you talk to us a little bit about and and bringing some more definitions into what's going on in your reparation and you're my as an economic professor, a professor of economics and maybe share a little bit about I would keep talked about the apology. And so what does that apology look like when we think about corporations and lawsuits or where does a city fit into that anything that you could share with us in terms of your research or as well as definition of what is what is this reparation that we're all talking about. I think it has three parts, I think the first part that Chanel and Jeff spoke to which is truth telling that we really can't go forward unless we understand the truth of our history. The second component of that is atonement. It's not just enough to have monetary compensation, but to acknowledge and and make amends for the harm done. The reparations for me is not just about slavery. It's about the ongoing effects of slavery and racial discrimination that exists today. We see for example that in the highest paid jobs that people of color are disproportionately underrepresented. And that is something that should be compensated for right in however we deal with this so whether it is in housing, whether it is an over incarceration of people of color whose families are then denied an income. All of that is ongoing. I think that, you know, with regard, let me just say with regard to corporations, I think part of what's useful about this process of truth telling and looking at our history is understanding how corporations in the north benefited, how banks benefited, how white people who had privileged access to employment all benefited and intergenerationally transmit that wealth forward so that today we also have extreme wealth inequality. And so really the process of compensation has to be to move beyond just thinking about the impact on enslaved peoples, but how that process of discrimination and creating a socially and racial hierarchy has created privileges into today that we have to reckon with. Thank you. I, you know, I feel like I see that every day, all day at my day to day work of looking at equity and social justice and so forth. And let's keep talking about this. I, I like to invite Taisha back to to just talk about what you've responded to what you've heard and thus far around what other cities are going through and also the thinking about I'm going to call it or others may call it you know sort of a framework around or conceptualizing this sort of the reparation and reconciliation and what are some of those components and I heard some very wonderful interesting examples come from Keith around what Asheville is doing and what they're putting together and can you just respond to that. Yeah, and I think what Asheville did was was really good for Asheville and I do think that having short term midterm long term goals to address systemic racism is very, very important. However, I do believe that we have to stay focused on the descendants of enslaved people, and we have to make sure it's narrow to that. When we're discussing reparations once we start talking about people of color, it opens it up. And then what happens to those descendants of enslaved people, they get left out once again. And that's one of the things that that has always bothered me about race neutral policies is that the black people, in particular black people who descended from enslaved people are always left behind. If you look at the housing crisis, you know the Fair Housing Act affirmative action, all of those things have left behind black people, and black people are still trying to scrape to catch up. So I think it's really important to what I plan to do with the reparations task force is to make sure that we stay centered on the on the descendants of enslaved people. Thank you. Thank you. So what I'm going to do now is I'm going to ask a series of questions. And I would love the panelists by a show of raising your hand. Everyone is not going to be answering the same questions, but I would like for us to try our best to have a little bit of discussion in this virtual world. And so one of my questions I have right now is, is reparation always about monetary monies does reparation come in other forms. Can someone help me with that help our audience. Ooh, look at there look at there I love it let's, you know, you should let's go with you first and then I'm Keith. I do think that it should involve money but it also has to involve other things like policy legislation. But at the core of it, at the core of slavery was economics. Well, I'm not going to even say if my ancestors help build this country, help make America an economic powerhouse. They got nothing for it. But the people who owned my family. They got reparations when they had to let my family go free $300 per slave which is about, and I know Stephanie helped me about $7700 in today's money per slave. That's a nice payout if you have to 300 400 500 slaves, as most of our early presidents did. And so, yes, it has to include money, because America wouldn't be where it is today. If it were not for my family members are the family members of Chandelier the family members of Dr. Jeff or the family members of Keith, or the family members of yours Wanda, you know, would not be what we are today. And who is reaping the benefits or those of that economic stability. It's only fair. They let our people go with nothing with nothing nowhere to go. No where to live, no food to eat they let us go with nothing. So yeah. Yeah, we need some money for this. And that and that and Keith, add to that. I'd like to, I definitely agree with Asia, I would say that, you know, to kind of piggyback off of what she said and give some other context toward that, the United States of America basically took out a loan. And with that loan they proceeded to build an economic superpower, unmatched in modern times one that could probably rival great Roman empires that stood through civilization. And that loan has never been repaid. And the underwriters of that loan is none other than us as black Americans the descendants of slaves, just to put that into perspective and I tell people this all the time by 1860. The United States of America held 4 million slaves, the total net value in today's dollars would be 3 billion in today's currency. And at that time the total value of all slaves combined and property in the United States was greater than every single combined asset of all of our financial institutions. Every single factory, every single railroad combined. Let that sink in for a minute like when you think of some of the individuals during those time periods that were extremely wealthy, folks like Vanderbilt, folks like Rockefeller. Those into Carnegie, those individuals couldn't match with their own wealth, what slavery bought to this country. And, you know, reparations is a very complex issue and it requires a solution that looks in my mind beyond a one time payment or check although let me be clear that a payment or a check in some sort of fashion, shouldn't be off the table and be included. But what we also have to deal with is the systemics in this country. And it's well known that policies and procedures that influence the access to capital and credit have very long lasting effects on residential neighborhoods on economic health and household accumulation of wealth. These are things that these policies and procedures that continue to hinder black Americans are the same policies and procedures that allowed Confederate monuments to go up. And so these same policies and procedures are the same things that we need to attack systemically in order to reverse that. You know, like in the 1930s and 40s the homeowners loan corporation, a government agency that recruited mortgage lenders and developers and real estate appraisers and nearly 250 cities around the country to create the color coded maps that we now know as red line. Those are the sorts of policies and procedures that continue to hinder us as black Americans. And yes, we need to attack the systemics of the issue, but we also need to make sure that if we do receive any sort of compensation, which we are due that that compensation won't be thrown out into the wind to where local governments and the federal government and state government say we gave you a check. Reparations is done but what still exists are the systemics that allow that check to be needed to begin with. So one generation might be paid but what happens to our next generation. We won't come out of that. I'll shut up because I can go on and on forever. Well, if you keep going on I might have to call you preacher in a moment here now so just so you know, I would like to things one Stephanie I would love to hear your response to some of those. I don't know what Keith and Tyesha was speaking about, but I also want to prepare, you know, Chandel, and Jeff to really think about you maybe think about, you know, our youth, and maybe think about the work there and the next generation as well and what they need to know and understand. Let's start with Stephanie and then I'm going to pick up with Chandel and Jeff from Providence. Let me say that I think there are two parts of this one part is the monetary compensation. We live in a country in which people are have very few social supports. So people's income and their wealth is a primary way that they survive that they provide for their families and so monetary compensation addresses that. But absent other changes, we will get a reproduction of inequality right if we don't equally fund schools in black neighborhoods versus white neighborhoods. For example, if we don't address health inequality, those health inequalities make it hard to earn a living. And so you end up being behind as a result of that so I think it really needs to be a combination of both of those. Thank you. Thank you. You know, Chandel, can you talk to us a little bit about, you know, some of the generational stuff we should be thinking about particularly around. What is it that our young people know when how are they how we know how do they understand what our situation is or is not and are they even thinking about it and what could some monetary payback as well as efforts that impacts our systems. What can you tell us about our youth and what we should be doing. From us in the city of Providence. I mentioned earlier about the African American Ambassador group. So that group that meets officially with the mayor myself every week, we have nine subgroups within that one group. And one of the groups it well to one is education reform subgroup and the other is a youth voice subgroup. It was extremely important to us to make sure that the youths voice were heard with this process that we're doing to not only hear their voices and understand what they need in this time because I went to school a long time ago so you know school is very different right now the educational system that they're facing is a little different now than what I went through. And we also wanted to make sure that they were involved with the entire process understanding policies understanding what reparations is and could look like and what it is not. We focused with us we're focusing on the truth telling and reconciliation portion it's so important for the youth to understand the truth. Not what they learned in school not about Christopher Columbus not about all this other stuff that I'll say stuff that they learned in school not necessarily the truth. What we're looking to do is implement a black history education in the state of Rhode Island. We have folks that are from the. I think it's the Rhode Island black heritage society and a couple of other black organizations that are working with transcription a black curriculum for our children in the upcoming areas to learn about the correct black history. And so for us in Providence what they know is what they're learning with what they're learning is having the opportunity to sit with the mayor and myself and Bishop Williams every week. It's an open door policy for them they they come they're able to ask questions they also have subgroups that meet outside of that group so that they can work with a municipal staff so they have a staff that we have assigned to that group so someone from the administration to people from the administration work with that group of students and young people young adults they are from the ages of 15 to I believe 24 and then they have other community adults that are with them. They do think that it's about money. Honestly, they do believe they want to get paid. They want money. They want money for being a part of the calls and what we're doing is teaching them the value of their presence teaching them the value of educating themselves and having the an unheard of opportunity to sit with the mayor every single week and to be able to hear his voice but him also what's more important for him to hear theirs. So for myself, we've definitely talked about it being monetary and we think that if it's monetary it'll be a very short term thing, and that's not our goal in Providence. That's not our goal for it to be monetary but our goal is to make it something bigger. Thank you. Jeff anything you'd like to add but I also would like to call you Bishop in this moment of expanding my question. What about you know, you know moral leadership what about spirituality. You know, in terms of the idea doing it because it's the right thing to do or you know, it's it's how we should treat each other. Does this come up at all in terms of thinking about reparation reconciliation truth telling in terms of whether it's the youth or those who are more seasoned weird spirituality in your mind play in all of this. Well, regretfully, it when it comes up it's an aberration. What I mean by that is somehow people think that reparations and moving forward are somehow mutually exclusive that you can't possibly talk about the past and still be moral forgiving and moving forward. But the truth is in the word was a toment that was used. Sadly, what people think somehow is that because at the root of a toment is covering. And so we're beyond just kind of covering it in order to really move forward, you have to open that thing up and really look at it and realize that hey I can't move forward until this is addressed. Right. So you cannot quote unquote just say I'm sorry, and let's move down the line and let's go. We've, you know, we had a black president right. That's the argument. So, so, and in different pulpit it, it's different, unfortunately. But when you talk about money, and you, there's a difference between money and economics. Right. And so people giving a check. We need that check, but it has to be a foundation or basis to build on the science of economics, so that money can actually move forward. And so it relates to kids or youth. And I think of my daughters want to think of that is that how do we create a system whereby we can create generational wealth. How do we get people to think that it is it is immoral, not to be productive as relates to creating wealth. That's where I take it. It's an immoral situation, just to allow people to sit in poverty to have systems that are oppressing them and not address that that's that's that's that's immoral. And so I take I take it to to to that level I make everything a moral issue as far as that's concerned. Right. And so when it when it comes to if I can, I can end with this. So the difference between money and economics is we're getting these stimulus checks. And they're needed. The problem is, as Reverend Keith said, the fact that we have we need the check is the problem. Right. That still does not get us to creating wealth. Right. And so reparations is not just hey, this is this is a check because, because we messed up reparations is how do we somehow elevate a group of people that have been disenfranchised and marginalized and destroyed essentially, how do we elevate them. So now we can actually truly compete as equals from an economic standpoint. And so that that's become that's that becomes a moral issue, moral issue. Yeah, that that, you know, uplifting and empowering is what's resonating around in my head as I listen to that and piece. Does anybody want to respond to the question additional add to our youth as well as around the question around the spirituality before I move on. Any thoughts came out for anyone. Okay, great. I'm going to keep going. Okay, who's going to take this one on. How do you respond. What about me. How do you respond to the questions particularly in terms of white individuals white groups folks saying what about me I'm poor. My family didn't have this or that. How do you respond to others believing that somehow there's a that reparations or reconciliation is due to them an apology. What are they going to get in a check. There's a lot of things I'm throwing out there I would love to hear two or three responses who's going to kick me off. Okay, Stephanie. Yeah. You know, I think that one of the ways I think to understand this for, you know, for white people is that you can be a low income white person who has suffered, you know, social exclusion because of your poverty and so forth but whiteness is a protective factor that people that that African Americans and other people of color don't have. I see that in policing actually a great deal. And so the other is that that there is also exploitation of low income white folks there you know there is class exploitation through firms paying people less than the value of what they're worth. And I think that the reparations is a function of a very specific act, which was enslaving black people. And it needs to, I think, Tyesha's point is really well taken that we need to keep the focus there. There are other mechanisms to rectify class inequality and exploitation by firms such as raising the minimum wage, raising requiring firms to pay for sick leave and so on and so forth. I think that's really different, but I think we have to focus on what the the act itself of enslaving African Americans and focus reparations on that. Thank you, Stephanie. I'm Keith, you're up next and then Tyesha. I would agree with what was just said I think you know I don't, I don't seek to address the issue with individuals at this point in time. It's not my job to educate on the history of our country. It's not my job to educate on white privilege. And I think when you look at the privileges that have been bestowed on white individuals in this country. It's, I mean, we just saw that about a week ago when people stormed the capital. And the way that that they were actually treated when you look at what privilege actually is privileges is is is being able to get alone when through redlining practices privileges being told over the history of this country that you may be poor but at least you're white and you're not black. And that is something that has been used politically against black Americans in perpetuity. I think you know it's again it's not the job of black individuals and people say why me why can't why can't we receive reparations for what we went through well it's not the same. It's not the same. And if I have to actually go step by step and tell you what the history is of this country and why it's not the same. And that tells me that our conversation is not needed and that you're not someone that I'm going to spend time trying to convince we need to connect with individuals around this country that are that understand folks like Stephanie folks like folks on this panel folks who are probably listening to this we need to connect with municipalities and state governments that understand this. And the rest is actually literally history. And if you're not on a level to actually understand the history then I'm not on a level to converse with you just don't do it. Thank you that you know that last comment remind me before we go to tie issue is when I was traveling a lot more and I would get on a plane or someone was sitting next to me at the airport and they would ask me what I did. There are a number of years back I stopped telling them because I could get into these conversations around affirmative action equal opportunity around social justice and equity based upon the work I did. You know, and as well as a social worker and I realized I was talking to individuals that I could not even begin to have an impact or a great conversation that would move us forward because they were so uninformed and had so much misinformation. So one of the things that I'm just definitely going to keep saying and echoing what you all are saying is education education awareness knowledge and I am going to be asking so think about the question related for all of you any resources on things that you want to suggest to people that they should be reading or and and and how to become informed who's writing and talking about this in the way that that you think offers some some really good clarity. But Tyesha, let's go to you to the question about you know what about me. Yeah, I, my brother Keith he said it he said it all he said everything that I was thinking it was like we're on the same wavelength. I don't have time. Google is your friend to your second part of the question. Google is your friend. And if you can Google anything you can Google recipes Google like where to take your kids and all this other stuff you can Google this as well. And so I'm not going to give out you know recommendations of what you should and can be reading I think New York Times sent out a whole list at the beginning of summer, and all those authors sold out. Look at that list, you know, I don't have time to do that. I'm trying to utilize my time to make sure that I'm putting forth policies and changes and legislation to address these things I don't have time to educate. I see Stephanie there. Go ahead. Okay, I want to comment on that because I think you're both so right. I do think the white people have an have an obligation people like me to help my white friends and family and community members to learn about these issues. I tell you that I teach a course called the political economy of race at the University of Vermont. It is so unbelievably stark to me how our K through 12 education has done nothing to help my students and students I think everywhere. What happened in Vermont recently was that there was an ethnic studies in the curriculum bill passed, and there is an effort to change the K through 12 curriculum and, you know, I think that's like 15 years out that we will begin to see the benefits of that but that's just something that needs to be done. And, you know, as I would say again to all of my white folk, people who believe themselves to be white who are on this call and elsewhere is we do have an obligation to dig in and to help teach each other because the burden has been much too heavy for too long on African Americans. I appreciate that Stephanie and I need I love and need you to continue to to talk to your white brothers and sisters. I'm going to apologize to Chandel because of where where she's at in my my thumbnail. Her hand has been up and so please forgive me for that and please share. Okay, Stephanie really said what I was going to say I don't have an answer for that. What about me syndrome but what I do do is I asked my white allies to answer for their people, because it's their responsibility to answer those questions not ours. Yes. I want to I want to I want to push back on what I just heard not not just Chandel, I want to push back. Just to play an advocate here. The education element. People are ignorant. I mean, I mean stone called ignorant. It's it's it's frightening the level of ignorance. And so I don't have the energy to educate either. But this is where I go now. Now this is going to sound strange coming from from a bishop in the Lord's church. I've been in the ministry for 36 years so it's going to sound strange and I'm losing some friends when I say this. I don't have time to educate you just to appease your your conscience. But if you're willing to listen to this to the story. Then we might make some progress. Because other than that, I'm in the I'm in the camp with with my brother, my brother Keith and Tisha and Chandel and Stephanie. I'm just not the one. I'm just I'm just I'm just not the one to try to educate you when you're when you're being lazy about this. And God knows within the Lord's church, the ignorance is inexcusable and deep. So if a person wants to educate themselves. They could look in their own backyard. They could look in the history of your own family and your own institutions. Every major denomination of church held slaves. That's frightening to think of that as policy held slaves as labor force held slaves. If you're not willing to do that, then I then there's nothing more for us to really talk about that sounds that doesn't sound like love. But you know the scripture says let the ignorant be ignorant still. So if you want to be ignorant, you remain ignorant. But if you want to learn, you need to sit and listen to the story. Something you're you're saying Bishop that's standing out to me now this may not be what you mean, but let me tell you what came in my head. We're tired, tired, we're traumatized. We're tired and folks, white folks and other folks that look like me got to do their own work, because we're tired work. And so that's one thing that I hear, and it reminds me of that saying in terms of, I don't you know, you know, I don't have time I'm not saying exactly right, but to spend time with you when you all your work and energy is into misunderstanding me. You put so much time and energy into misunderstanding me rather than understanding me. We don't have time for that. But I, you know, those who are listening and watching, I mean, if you can feel what I feel as the energy that just came across in terms of so tired of being tired. And so keep that in mind as one as you think about this. As we start to wind down and I want to invite some questions into from our audience, I have two things I want to do the first question I have. If I'm someone my sharing. So, are we saying, you know, there is no healing without reparations for blacks. Do we feel that healing could still happen with someone respond to that for me, what do you think of. Yes, on Sean down. I think that healing can happen. At this point of the game, I feel like it's a choice. And I feel like the, it really depends on how we frame this to take place. Who's willing to train and have these discussions whose knowledgeable enough to bring everyone to the table white and black. Who what white people are are going to be willing to come to the table and listen. And it's going to be painful on both ends. There are white people, we just said like the what about me syndrome. And so there are a lot of non people of color that feel as though this isn't affecting them. All lives matter. It's not just black lives matter. Their lives matter blue lives matter blue is not a bloodline it's not your color it's it's your uniform. So no disrespect to the police department I have many friends there. I feel as though with with the conversations that are needed we're going to have to dig very deep. And we're going to have to make sure that there's that there are people in the room who can assist in the healing process when these conversations take place in that there was a longevity from it that it's not this one and done conversation that it is an ongoing conversation that is the check in to make sure that people who started the conversation can continue the conversation can heal from what they heard and can learn from what they heard so I do believe that I'm healing can happen for black people. My question to black people is are you willing to heal. Bishop were you getting ready to say something as well. Yes, I looked at it from this perspective there is a certain degree of healing that that must happen that that the person who has been victimized has control over so so that's you know forgiveness to a certain degree. Think of healing. Let's hold hands and let's go forward. You cannot go forward with individuals who do not own what's happened and are unwilling to make restitution for what's happened, even if they cannot make restitution they must be willing to make restitution. This is this is true if you break it down into a family situation. You have you have an abuser in a family who comes back and says hey I want to come back to Thanksgiving dinner. But we can't have you back at dinner until you recognize what the damage that's been done and what you're willing to deal with right if you're not willing to deal with that and and in a scriptural standpoint bring fruit that demonstrates that you have changed the way you thought. Then it is unwise for me to to sing kumbaya and hold hands with you. Right, I can forgive you in to a certain to a certain degree, but I cannot invite you back into my space and act like it's all good. It's not all good. That's like that's that's that's that's in my mind that's insanity to say let's have tea with someone who's abused you, but you have you that person won't even own what they've done. Right, so, so again, you know, you know, I'm a bishop talking to maybe I shouldn't talk like this. But but if we actually read into the Judeo Christian ethic. There are elements where where forgiveness cannot be granted until repentance is is shown. Right, so, so, so yes this healing to a certain degree, but but I can't I was not going to walk down the street and saying it's all good. It's not all good. You know, I already told you where I come from so I'm about to say amen. That's all I know to say. What I like to move to before we opened it up. I really like to give everyone. It looks like Skyler may have his hands up Skyler do you have your hand up. That was just to alert you that we had a few questions in the Q amp a that's all. Thank you. Before we do before we open up and we're coming close to the end. And there's a few questions, but I would like to ask each of you. Just in case I did not ask you something that you wanted to make sure that you shared in this moment. Can you just take a brief moment like just a minute that and you can certainly pass if you, but I like to be able to go through and I think that Tyesha had the last word, particularly as the city of Burlington is embarking and doing the work around the task force and anything that would be helpful. And so, why don't I have Stephanie if I can start with you just to some quick thoughts that you may have about anything that I did not get a chance to ask you or you did felt like did not come up. One of the questions that Wanda had a lot of asking us we didn't quite get to was what what work has been done to estimate the contribution of slavery to the US economy. And I want to recommend a book for all of you who are watching called behalf was never told. And it's slavery and the making of American capitalism. So capitalism has been a huge stimulus slavery has been a huge stimulus to economic growth in the United States. cheap cotton meant that factories in the north had a cheap source of materials. They then became very competitive in international markets. Why not because we were more productive but because we get enslaved people. And so there's we could do an economic analysis that but I also want to talk about the cost, but the cost is that the cost has been not only things that we can't quantify in terms of the trauma and pain. But even the everyday cost today the over policing of people of color, the over incarceration of people of color, the mental health problems that result from ongoing racial discrimination. And so there is research that suggests that actually racial equality would actually raise the standard of living for everybody in the United States, not just African Americans. So I want to just put out there that yet let me just say this that you know I was talking economics and numbers but ultimately it's our way of talking about the human experience about a horribly, horribly traumatic and painful and shameful experience. But on the other side of that what could we gain by equity, what could we gain by treating people equally as equal beings, and there is a lot that we would gain from that and I hope people think about that as well. Thank you Stephanie. Hi, yes. One of the questions that I don't think that we touched on was, have you undertaken a study to determine the economic impact of the institution of slavery in the United States. Well, for us and in the city of Providence on July 15. Mayor laws assigned an executive order that identified and created a process of the truth reconciliation and municipal reparations to address its institutional and systemic bias and racism that's been affecting black indigenous and people of color. And with the emphasis on black people, a team of city and state historical institutions have been assembled to research and collect documents from present form. And a comprehensive narrative for public education, public interpretation and future policy making efforts to date, the research that has been collected by the historians is about nearly 500 primary and secondary resources, I'm sorry sources of documentation and historical artifacts that unfail about 400 years of Providence's history between 1620 and current year 2020. Thank you, thank you for bringing that back around really appreciate it's going to be very helpful to all of us. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Keith, Reverend Keith here. Yeah, so there was mentioned earlier about the different disparities and in the city of Asheville in North Carolina we've actually been able to move from certain policies being race neutral to actually race positive. The many disparities that we have from as black Americans from healthcare education, employment criminal justice business ownership home ownership, overall equity and of course generational wealth I have studied some some vehicles to get cities who are looking at reparations policies that specifically address these through payments in the form of grants to black city residents grants that could establish small businesses down payment assistance home purchases land acquisition. And I have developed these individuals and municipalities around the country, and I have developed some framework for how to do that and avoid the legal hurdles of being able to pay black residents in your municipalities. I want to talk about everyone else bringing legal challenges to your city, saying what about me. So I just want to say that if there are conversations offline for any of the individuals on this panel or those those watching. There are opportunities to be able to address actual funding of reparations through different vehicles in your municipalities. Thank you. Thank you very much, Bishop. It's simply the, the need for those who who are watching are interested in this conversation to really to encourage them to do their work and to to do the one should do their best to ascertain the depth of the of the pain and the suffering that has resulted into the enslavement of people, the destruction of the psyche of individuals and families, you know, and seven generations later, you know, here we are. And so that's, that's what I would leave us with. In that sense, that we need to really take a look at the depth of the problem, you cannot, you cannot prescribe until there has been a proper diagnosis or the depth of the issue. I love that the proper diagnosis. I'm going to be right before I want you all those over who are on know that I'm going to get to the questions here really quickly but I like to have Taisha share or ask you have the floor for a moment here. Thank you. I love the way the Bishop speaks. I just, I just love it. So, I feel like, I mean, I believe that you can't have systemic racism without chattel slavery. I also believe that you cannot have reconciliation without truth. And I believe that the systems are not broken they are designed they're well designed to make sure that there is a cast system in this country. And like the Bishop said, you know, you cannot have forgiveness without was the word you use Bishop repentance. So my question is, is America ready to repent. I don't think the answer is yes. And so without that repentance, how are we supposed to forget. Thank you for for having me. Thank you wonder for the time. Thank you. On that ending though, it's it you know, I grew up Baptist on the nomination and I felt like I wanted to put my finger up like I'm going to the bathroom because I don't know how to answer that question. Okay, let me just be for real, but here are some questions that are participants would love to see some here are some answers to how can we move this conversation from the local to the state and national level. If it is, if it is how can we join those. So I think that I'm reading exactly how it's written but you know, basically how can we move this conversation from the local to the state and national level. And how can one join in. Anyone brother Keith is that you with your hand up. Yes. These conversations are already on the national level for some national politicians I think Sheila Jackson Lee has taken up the mantle of a predecessor to implement a reparations resolution in Congress. She's actively working on that. Folks can reach out to her office I think, how do you elevate this from a local to a state national level I think we're already doing that. You know, folks talk to me in the city of Asheville about reparations and what they thought it should and should not be. There are criticisms on you know what we did but I would always say to them. I like your passion on the issue but show me another municipality or government around the country that is actually doing this, and we have to move from theory to actual practice in order to make something happen everybody's got these great ideas that they can tell you what you're not doing correctly, but they can never point to anywhere else around the country that their ideas have actually been implemented so what we need to do is you don't worry about the folks who don't want reparations you don't worry about the folks that need the extensive education on the history of this country. You can actually go preach to the choir because sometimes the product the choir can bring people into the church, and you look at the municipalities and places around the country that are willing to do this work, and willing to implement these policies and that's where you focus, and it sprouts without the city of Asheville I probably wouldn't be here talking to you now. There are lots of cities around this country that I've actually done work in to try to bring reparations for Knoxville is one of them I've talked to some folks in Atlanta. There's another city Morseville I believe in North Carolina. So these things are happening around the country, and we just need to focus our efforts where we can catch the low hanging fruit. Thank you. I believe that Shondelle had her name, but Shondelle, I want to add to this if you were going to respond. There's this very specific question here for you. How can we bring this conversation to young people if they haven't opened the question. I don't understand what that question is asking me honestly. I'm going to assume that it may mean that maybe if young people are not aware, or aren't asking questions about reparation or reconciliation or truth telling, how can you start the conversation, not quite sure if that's exactly what it means but that's what I'm thinking about, or maybe more inside of engaging with the young, the youth. For us what we did. I just wanted to make sure that I was answering you correctly. So, for what, what the city of Providence did was, I have a very large network of young people that I work with and organizations that also work with young people and what we did was we reached out to those orgs. We let the organizations and the directors of those organizations the frontline workers that work with the youth know about the work that we were doing and we invited them to our table. We have a lot of educators that are involved in these discussions teachers. So we asked the teachers to make sure that the youth and their students understood what was happening within the city. And so for us. That's what we've done to engage young people. Thank you. You're welcome. Here's another question here. I'm going to read it as is written and then we can make sure to see if we understand it but it's my thinking is that in order for this healing and reparations to unfold. And would we agree everything we know about the systems need to be dismantled and rebuild. Would you agree that this will be most effective. All systems are are broke and it's very interesting because, you know, a tie issue as you finished up your last words you talked about things not really being broken and how they were designed. So, maybe a couple responses to this question. Yes. I would say yes to all of those questions. And at the end, when the questioner said all systems are broken and it does feel that way, you know, because we're the recipients of that said brokenness but one of the things that I keep coming back to as I mentioned is the constitutional lie and and the reconstruction period and what happened there. The systems are not broken. It just feels like they are and so we have to break the foundations of what this country is. We have to indict this country for the harms that it has placed that not the, not just the feet of black people but indigenous people and other people of color. We have to be serious in our resolve to build something better and and new. If we're not serious in that if we're not going to talk about dismantling, you know, the policing system dismantling the economic system dismantling the education system if we're not talking about doing that, then we're not going to reach the level of where we feel like the system is not broken. Thank you. The system is very resolved. Thank you. I just want to leave your hand is up. Yeah, I just like to piggyback and say that, you know, yes, these systems are set up and set up and are working the way that they are supposed to work. But in our instance, we need generations to be made whole through the same systemic actions that got us here and have produced policies that outlive many dead politicians and generations of of dead black Americans there needs to be a sort of a system driven, iterative adaptive solution to all of our root causes. There needs to be a step by step approach, which will break down our problems into root causes, based on the system makes that got us here, identify some other points, search for possible solutions, take action and review the data and see if it's actually working to make our lives better. If it is continue doing that if it isn't wash, rinse, repeat, and do that all over again. So we have to embed the problem solving has to be systemic in nature. And I think that's how we need to move forward. Thank you. I think we have time for just one more question, although what's interesting about the question I'm looking at right now. It looks like three questions rolled up into one. So let's see how we might be able to tease this out. There's a thank you so much for hosting the panel. It is such a wonderful departure from MLK holiday celebrations that are inspirational, but not necessarily about systems transformation. Are there larger platforms like the National League of Cities, where this work has been highlighted also has the conversation around reparations shifted in light of economic crisis. How do you keep focus on economic reparations when some folks may be asking for a budget neutral solution policy wise. Now, what's interesting about all those questions I believe we touched on some of those things but was anyone like to take a stab at a couple of thoughts around finding out maybe a couple of you. And, and I'm assuming that Reverend Keith here is your hand up again is that right. That was from the last time but I'll be more than happy to jump in I don't want to get in there brother over shadow going there going that deep go ahead. The question about let's see it says are there larger platforms like the National League of Cities I've been to the National League of Cities, every year for the last five years. Well, they didn't do it this year in person because of COVID, but they have basic equity work I don't think that they've and in the previous year they had some information about redlining. But there hasn't really been any deep work from the National League of Cities on reparations I know that there is the governmental alliance on race and equity, better known as gear that could possibly be doing some work on that but those are two organizations that this could have more awareness added to it. And I don't know how much time we have left but I'll stop there and give other folks an opportunity to chime in. One of the things I did want to offer that you know maybe some of the answer if there's something that you might want to put into the chat that are here with some of the folks that are asking the questions but is there. Stephanie there is a question to hear about the course that you teach and whether it can be audited. Any final response I'd like to be able to give Tyesha the last word and I see why don't I go to Bishop and and why don't you from there lead to Tyesha and then I'm going to think think everybody and Stephanie will get your class the class that you're referencing up. The thank you the question as relates to as reparations shifted in light of the economic crisis. One of the problems that that I think we face as a as a community of black people is that we are we are enslaved by the crisis at the, at the expense of what is actually urgent. And so, when someone gives us $600. We need to $600. We need to $2,000. But that is that that is that is not an answer. Right, that is not an answer so we cannot allow the crises that come stop us or cause us to lose focus on the on the bigger on the bigger picture. We have to remodel the airplane while it's in flight. We can't park this thing while we're putting out the fire we got a triage and treat. And so it will take the courage to do that, you know and saddle up for the long haul and be creative. And as brother Keith said, systemic and systematic. We will make we will make the progress we need to make down the road. And thank you. Thank you for inviting me and Chandel. Thank you for not letting me say no. And so thank you. Thank you Chandel. Taisha as one of the host any final words from you. I would just say that 401 years. 401 years we've been waiting for some kind of reconstruction. I think I think this will be considered the third iteration of the reconstruction, according to Reverend William barber. So, I, I don't think it's appropriate to have this pandemic and the economic crisis that it has placed on American people to this way us from 401 years of trauma and torture. This crisis has been going on for 10 months, nine months, but the crisis for black Americans have been going on for centuries I just don't think there's a comparison there. And I think that we have to keep our eye on the ball regardless of what's happening in regards to this pandemic. And I will end there. Thank you all so much those who are listening, but especially to the panelists, a lot of truth telling bearing their souls, allowing me to be who I am some folks know how I can be, and other people are learning about me. I see that you are quickly will be with some of my forever colleagues that I will be in touch with, and I thank you so much, I will be more than remiss if I did not invite those who are listening and those who are here to attend the Thank you Vermont's MLK celebration education and learning day we have Dr Leon McDougal from the National Society Medical Association. And if you don't know about that it'll be another form of truth telling and in a world where African American and black doctors are allowed to be a part of the American Medical Association and really looking at a lot of the disparities and so forth so if you have some interest just go to the University of Vermont website, and you register as for free and it's January 20 So I invite you all to come on as my guest, and I will end with you know what remember why we are here today. We are remembering and honoring Dr King and his legacy and the many others who have stepped forward and sacrifice their lives so that we could be sitting here and continuing the work in the fight and so I hope you take what you've learned today and do something with it. Have a good day. Thank you, everybody. Thank you.